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Welcome to the Aggressive Life. Nearly everyone has a dream of change in the world, making it a better place. But not many people actually get around to doing that. Today's guest, I would call him a friend. Hal Donaldson is not one of those people. He's the president and CEO of Convoy of Hope, a faith-based nonprofit. He leads an organization that has helped 200 million people worldwide. 200 million. How he helped them by sharing food. I don't even want to tell you how he's helped them. See, this is what I'm concerned. Because whenever you start talking about poverty, we're just gonna talk a little bit about today. Everyone's walls go up like the Batmobile. You know, it's like, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, ksh, children who are bloated with flies crawling over their face to feel like we're abused. So I, man, I'm telling you right now, I really think you're gonna be helped. Just because you've heard of the overarching goal of this organization and how it started and lead, please, for your own benefit, hang in there. I think you're gonna be inspired today. Totally. Yeah. Totally. Well, how do you say totally? Dirt, you never even talked with Hal. But I've done research into Hal. I have learned about Hal. And he sounds like he's a super uplifting. who's gonna push us too. Have you heard about how he got into this? No. Then you haven't heard Jack. You haven't heard Jack. I'm telling you, it's unfreaking believable. I can't wait to hear it. It's unfreaking believable. Let me finish off my- That's the first question. Let me finish off with my pre-recorded, my pre-prepared comments here. Okay, here it is. So he's going after the biggest killers on our planet, poverty, disease, hunger, and his team is making an enormous- Impact right now, Convoy of Hope has boots on the ground in Syria and Turkey, helping those countries devastated by earthquakes. They're in Ukraine responding to the enormous humanitarian need and refugee crisis. They're in the Philippines, feeding more than 30,000 hungry children. They're in East Africa, yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda on and on and on. He's got a book called Disruptive Compassion. It's a guide to moving beyond the helplessness and outrage. of our depressing news feeds into a life that makes a difference right where we are. This is not going to be a depressing news feed of a podcast. You're going to be encouraged, I hope. You're going to be pushed. He's going to push us all today while he does push-ups. I can't wait to talk to him. Welcome to the Aggressive Life. How, Donaldson? Thanks, Brian. That's some introduction. In fact, I was just thinking to myself, man, I wish I was living in his city so I could attend his church on Sundays. I mean, that was an amazing introduction. I wish you were living here too. I hear what hot to we could do. Maybe you can't live here, but you could still tie here. Maybe that's even better. Maybe don't live here. Maybe just give pepper said, oh, okay. I'll talk to my pastor about that. Yeah. How gets your physical attendance? Brian. gets your money, your financial attendance. We'll see if you're really loved or not. That's awesome. Love it. Love it. Love it. So man, full disclosure, I'm a friend of Hal. I hang out at a retreat that Hal sponsors with kind of a who's who in pastored him once a year. I've done it for three years. I've grown greatly. I've gotten to know how through that. He's told his story. And every time I hear the story, I am inspired. I almost said wrecked, but wrecked sounds depressed. I'm never depressed. I am hyper inspired. And I think before we get into how to just start an organization, because a lot of people want to start an organization before we get into how have you led a growing organization? because a lot of people would like to do it. How do you get into a situation where you're dealing with hundreds of millions of dollars as a leader? We're going to deal with that. Before we get into all of those things, I think it's important to go back to the beginning of your childhood and kind of tell the founder story. Would you mind doing that? Yeah, for sure. Again, thanks for the invitation and the opportunity. And congratulations on the podcast. Yeah, you know, like convoy was founded in 1994, but it really was, I believe it was really born in the heart of God much longer before that. And so when I was 12 years of age, my parents were hit by a drunken driver. My father was killed instantly. My mother was seriously injured. She couldn't work. And our family didn't have insurance and the man who hit them didn't have insurance. And so the family was forced to survive on welfare. Well, even worse than that, weren't they? didn't they have to turn back to the house, which changed the timing of when they got hit? I mean, do the deep granular view. I don't want the overview. I want the overview. I want little cute Hal, how life changed. Okay, well, yeah. So what happened was we were supposed to stay home with a babysitter. I'm the oldest of four kids. And so the babysitter was late. So my dad said, hey, hop in the back of the car. You're gonna have to go to the business meeting with your mom and I. My father was halfway down the road when he glances in his rearview mirror and he spots the babysitter pulling into our driveway. My dad makes a U-turn, drops the four of his kids off, and we'd spend the night with the babysitter after all. About an hour and a half later, there was a knock at the door and it was two uniform police officers standing right there in front of me. They had come to deliver the news that my father had been killed and my mom was seriously injured fighting for her life. That night... A number of people in the neighborhood, friends begin to show up at the house. And the police officer stepped up to the porch and he just said, hey, is there anyone here who's willing to take the four kids home with them? If not, we'll take them down, down to the station. And you know, Brian, I'm sure it was just a matter of seconds, but I was standing right next to the police officer looking at the crowd, just hoping that someone would raise their hands. And finally, one couple did. Their names were Bill and LaVeda Davis. relatively new Christians, but they saw a need, saw an opportunity, and they probably thought it was going to be a one or two night sleepover, but we ended up living with Bill and Levada in their trailer, a small trailer in a trailer park for about a year. These people are incredible. They sacrificed their privacy, they drained their savings account so four kids could have a home. And I tell people that- Well, there was you four, and they had their own kids, right? their own kids. And then when my mom was finally released from the hospital, even though she was cast up, she had cast on her legs and her arms. The Davises went out and these weren't wealthy people. They went out and bought a recliner. So my mom would have a place to sit in their trailer. And then they invited my grandmother to come and live with us too. So at one time we had 10 people living in a small trailer. Oh my gosh. I know. 10 people. Was this a double wide or a single wide trailer? Yeah, it was, I guess you would say it was single wide, but they had added on to it a little bit. But yeah, very, very small. There weren't enough beds. So we took turns sleeping on the floor. Gosh, amazing people. And you know, from there, just experience unbelievable kindness, I experienced the shame of poverty. My mom was able to recover to the point that she could find two part time jobs. And so she she was able to move us into a place of our own. But That honestly was the beginning of some very difficult years for our family. Covers were often empty holes in our shoes. And, uh, I, I, I didn't become bitter because of the Davises and the people who would come to our door with bags of groceries and they would tell us, Hey, Jesus loves you. We love you. God has a plan for your life. And if it wasn't for them, uh, I wouldn't be here today. There probably wouldn't be a convoy of hope. Wow. Then what? Yeah, so, you know, when you're when you're raised poor, you begin a quest not to be poor anymore. And certainly that was me. And I was really trying to build a bank account and escape poverty and went out, earned a couple of degrees, started writing books in my 20s as a ghostwriter. And one of those book projects took me to Calcutta, India in my late 20s. And when I arrived, my host had arranged for me to interview Mother Teresa. And in the course of the interview, she just says, hey, you know. what are you doing to help the poor and the suffering? And she was very polite, but you know, young man, what are you doing to help? And you know, I didn't lie to her. I told her the truth. I said, I'm really not doing much of anything. And she replied, well, everyone can do something. Just do the next kind thing that God puts in front of you. And you know, Brian, those words were really haunting for me because they forced me to ask a question that I had really long avoided. The question was, am I happy and am I fulfilled? And the answer to that was no, I wasn't because I was living for myself. I came back to the States and was really conflicted. I began to pray this prayer, God, change my heart, do a work in my life, change my priorities. And one day I was just praying and I really felt compelled to do something quite unusual, to travel to eight cities. And I wrote them down, eight cities. and to live in the streets for three days and three nights. I went to Miami, Atlanta, Chicago, DC, New York, major cities, and I rode with the police on the midnight shift. I walked the streets after midnight with a hidden tape recorder interviewing drug addicts and gang members, prostitutes, runaways, the homeless. And I can just tell you, God just broke my heart. And you slept on the streets too? You said you slept. I did. Wow. As in like you went to homeless shelters or you actually lived homeless and slept on a bench? Yeah, I really just roam the streets and I didn't do it alone. I had always had someone with me. But we would walk the streets for hours and then you'd find like a park bench or a bench and just hunker down and get a couple hours of sleep. But that was the experience and it was life changing. You know, those conversations, those experiences really use the word wrecked. It wrecked me. And I like to say, I believe that God had to do a work in my heart before he could do a work through my hands. And I came back, this is 29 years ago, 29 years ago, I loaded up a pickup truck with $300 worth of groceries. And I started passing them out to migrant farm workers in Northern California. And I told them that day that God loves you, I love you. Hey, there's a church right down the street that loves you too. And That experience was really the birth of convoy. And as you know, since that time, what God's done is really incredible. We're now feeding 530,000 kids a day around the world. We are training thousands of mothers every year, helping them start their own businesses so they can feed their own kids. Responding to disasters, helping farmers increase their yields, conducting community outreach across the country. You know, God took, I guess, one act of obedience and a heart cry that I had and uh, has multiplied it. So let's, let's push on this a little bit. Are you okay if I push on the great Hal Donaldson? Please. You, you prayed one of the most weenie prayers that can ever be prayed. I don't, I don't believe in this prayer, but I'll have you defend it and push back on me, change my heart. If I waited for God to change my heart before everything I did that was good, I wouldn't do anything that was good. It's like I'm falling right now. Guy I know, actually, the guy I met at the first retreat with you has walked out in his family, has gotten remarried with somebody else. It's just awful, awful, awful. And like, you know, God's not changing his heart. He's walked out on him. He didn't need to pray God change his heart. You need to do good old fashioned repentance, do something you don't want to do, and be faithful. So change my heart, defend yourself, oh weenie man of God. What do you mean change my heart? Just freaking do the right thing. Yeah. Yeah, so that question was really, I think, the byproduct of many years of struggling. And my father was an amazing giver before his death. He taught us how to give. And his principles were such. He would say, hey, how listen, God didn't call you to take a vow of poverty, but he did ask you to make a commitment to generosity. Those are the kind of principles that I had forgotten. So when I asked the question, it really I think was a byproduct of years of struggle. I finally had a moment where I was confronted. No one had confronted me with my selfishness. And I believe that Mother Teresa. asked the right question at the right time. And when I said God changed my heart, that wasn't just a momentary experience. And there's probably a lot of people listening right now who have had years of struggle. And that was me. What a great line. Let me repeat that again. God doesn't ask you to take a vow of poverty, but to live a life of generosity. Yeah. That's really good. I think one of the reasons, before we get into the leadership stuff, the organizational dynamics, which I want to do, I just, the subject of poverty and meeting the needs of those who are poor, it's so rife with guilt. At least we feel guilty because I have a nice expensive motorcycle and I have extra clothes. and I give clothes away because I get so many clothes and aren't I a loser? I don't, I don't measure up it. I don't know. It just seems, it just seems so rife with that. Like my history was the first time I ever heard about poverty was Tony Campolo, who spoke at a lot of camps and did a lot of things in Haiti decades and decades ago, I was in high school and I was mesmerized. I'd never considered about before. And he was a very, very magnanimous speaker. And then, and then like his next iteration of that was Shane Claiborne. Uh, Shane's a great guy and he's been to see mother Teresa. He's very earnest. He's a, he's a person of integrity. And I've told him, dude, he just freaking depressed me. Like if you think that your life has to be my standard, like you have to make your own shoes so you can give more money. I'm not going to make my own shoes. I'm not, I'm not. So it's like, I just go like, forget it. I give up, I give up. And there's something about how you're approaching this. That is fresh for me. It's, it's. It's not guilt driven, even if there's other people who never tried to operate or motivate through guilt. I so frequently feel guilty. I feel less than, which never gets the best of me. What do you think it is about your approach or how you care yourself that actually inspires people like me instead of make me feel like I'm a loser? Yeah, I think a lot of times, and I think the church is probably guilty of this, is that we stand on the shoulders of the poor. And I wrote this yesterday, actually. we stand on the shoulders of the poor, when really we've been called to allow them to stand on our shoulders. And I think a lot of times without even realizing it, we approach the poor and the suffering as less than, as second class, third class citizens. And I think when you come to a realization that they are special in the heart of God, it certainly makes it a lot easier. And I think for me, I've come to the realization that Jesus does love the poor and the suffering. And it's not my compassion that's doing the work, it's his. And my job is just to keep myself willing and open to the opportunities that he wants to give me. You mentioned that your vision before all this was simply to not be poor. Yeah. I can understand that. I've interacted with people who had a similar thing. When did the vision shift in your life? Was there a seminal moment that helped you think bigger other than just your own survival and eliminating difficulty? Yeah, well, I think that vision is often incremental. God never gave me a master plan. I'm kind of glad he didn't 29 years ago because it would have freaked me out. You know, and I'm glad that vision is incremental. And it's kind of like the yellow brick road coming back to Wizard of Oz, you know, where I think he illuminates the step in front of you. And you take that step, you're obedient to that step, and then it'll show you the next step. So, honestly, I never thought of feeding the world. I really have always thought about feeding the person in front of me. And yeah, that's been my approach, and Convoy's approach. Boy, that is so good. Just interject here right now. This is why this podcast is called The Aggressive Life. So many people, I'm so sick of the question, what's my purpose, what's my purpose? As if like, God's gonna... bring down from heaven a vision statement and it's going to map out for me what I do. And then I just do that and it makes, no, it doesn't work that way. The aggressive life is there's a thing in front of me that I could do or not do. And I'm going to aggressively choose to do it if I think God's okay with that. And then I do that thing. And then he brings in another thing. And another thing, this is how God moves. He moves us to move. And if we choose to not move on those relatively small things, we'll never have the big things happen in our life, which are accumulation of a lot of small aggressive moves. Your thoughts on that? Yeah, I agree. I think one of the greatest poverty in the world today, and especially in the United States, is loneliness. And just befriend someone. You're attacking poverty. spiritual poverty, emotional poverty, through befriending people who are lonely. And there are lonely people everywhere we go. That's good. Jesus says, bless the poor in spirit. And when he says that in the sermon on the mount, in the Beatitudes, I've been over to Israel a number of times. I'm going over in a couple months, and I'm gonna be doing a bunch of content that's about David. to Jesus based in, you know, because they would come to Jesus and he would say, people would say, they thought the magic code was, you know, Jesus son of David have mercy on me. And of course he was prophesied that it will be David's lineage that the Messiah would come. So I'm going over to do a bunch of, a bunch of talks actually on five things. So they're the five core callings that we have, and we're going to do it on location, like where the battle with Goliath took place. We know the exact place, all that stuff. Now all that, why would I start telling that? I was, I have no idea. I don't know where you were going. I was all a preamble to make my points. What was my points? That was a commercial. It wasn't a commercial. A commercial for something that isn't even out yet. Filming attractions. Gosh, what was it? What was it? That was all something. All right, it'll come to me. Wow. That was a senior citizen moment, I guess. All right, forget it. Let's keep going on. And yeah, make sure you leave that in too, dear. We don't do... tight editing. So, oh, I know, I, I think I know what it is. Oh, okay. I know what it is. Your book, Disruptive Compassion, these teachings we're going to do are all a background for a book that we're going to do, Dirt and I are working on together. And in your book, Disruptive Compassion, you said that instead of just feeling compassion, feeling, when we hear about crisis, we actually have the ability to provoke real and meaningful change. How does the average person have the ability to create change versus just feeling bad? Yeah, well, I think every one of us has been given a degree of hope, and that's a God-given gift. But God doesn't want us to hoard that gift. That gift was given so that we give hope away. I believe that hope can be transferred from one human to another. and we all have that and a lot of times we hoard it, we keep it close and we miss out on the opportunity to change people's lives. And here's the thing about God is when you give hope away, He replenishes your hope. And so it's a never ending hope. And you know, we've seen that happen all over the world, how people, their lives can change with just a plate of food or a pair of shoes. look at my life. I mean, I think my life was changed in large part because people saw I had holes in my shoes, and they said, let's go to a shoe store and get you a new pair of sneakers. You know, it's so simple. Yeah. And you know, so I think we make it a lot more complicated than it is. Yeah, that's a good word. That's why that line of not avow poverty, a life of generosity, I love that. Tony Campolo, when he said something as a high school kid, it always impacted me. You know, Jesus says, where were you when I was sick? Where were you when I was in prison? Tony said, you gotta have somebody standing up for you in heaven. That really hit me. Like, I'll have some kids with Compassion International raise their hands and say, oh, oh, oh, he was there for me. I'm gonna, just because of my generosity, which is a monthly commitment I make to Compassion International, you're a convoy of hope. I'll have some people impacted with convoy of hope, go, oh, oh, oh, he led an organization. that gave amount of money to Convoy of Hope that did this. I'll have people go, oh, oh, he one time was in line at McDonald's and just told the person at the carryout window, I'm going to pay for the person who's behind me. Yes. One of my biggest regrets of the last year, probably my worst moment of the last year. I've had a lot of crappy moments last year. The one, I've had a lot of crappy moments. But this one was, I was getting new tires, and there was an African American woman who needed new tires. She had had it blown out, and she was in there, and they were telling her what tires and how much it was. I could just see stress was all over her face. And I bought my four tires for my truck. They were very expensive tires, 35-inch tires. And the thought crossed my mind, tires right now. I could, I could now 15 years ago, I couldn't have 20 years ago. I could, there was, I could not have, but I know I saw it there. I said, I could do this and I didn't do it. I didn't do it. I don't know. I just was, I was cheap that day. I use the old standard lines of, Oh, well she, I don't, I just go, man, that generosity. I had an opportunity to be generous to a woman that would have made a difference in her life, and I didn't. That was awful. I have those experiences too. I remember walking by a man that lived on a bus bench and walking and driving by him day after day. And I felt prompted to stop. And I kept saying, God, I'll stop tomorrow. I'll stop tomorrow. And he'd been there for weeks. And I made a commitment. I will stop tomorrow. the next day came and he wasn't there and I never saw that man again. And I missed that opportunity, you know, so that happens to all of us. And what do we need to take from that? Next time you feel that prompting, go ahead and respond. Do something. I could have had that elderly woman stand for me in heaven and say, oh, he covered me. Jesus teaches that this happens. And and I regret this. I was very passive that day and it turned my stomach. I would have I would have recovered. from the $1,500 expense, probably four new tires were for her, long before I would have recovered of the regret of not making that move. And as you could tell, I still have it. It bums me out. It's my kind of public profession. You know, Brian, Jesus was surrounded by a lot of needs, right? Everywhere he went, there were people who needed healing and needed help. And he didn't, he didn't heal everyone or help everyone. He just did what his father asked him to do. He didn't help everyone, but he was willing to stop for anyone. And I think that's what we need to be. We need to be in a place where when we see a need, we simply ask, Jesus, is there something you want me to do? And have the courage to step forward and do it. So let's get to your leadership resume here. You have built something. Like, what's the size of Convoy? What's the revenue a year? 530, 550, something like that. OK. A million. half a billion dollars plus. Did you ever think that you would be the leader of a half billion dollar organization, which is likely going to be a billion dollars before too, too long? Did you ever see that that was going to happen? No, because my background is journalism and Bible. And I still wonder if God made a mistake. He got the name wrong. when he tabbed me to do this. But, you know, I think that you've heard me say this before. I really do believe that success is more dangerous than failure. And, you know, humility is probably, it has to be at the foundation of every organization, every business, every church. And if you keep that right, then God's gonna take care of you. So you never had a vision to lead a big organization, employ a bunch of people. What's your leadership journey been like? Do you identify the gateways that you went through? First, did you have to get OK with leading an organization? Was there another one of getting OK with having people support you or you support people? I remember one of my most formative days in leadership. We were leaving. I was leaving the office. in a rented office. This is about year, year four of Crossroads. And I was leaving the office to go down these steps to where all of these cars were, the people who were working there. And I was going down to get my car to go for lunch. And I hated leaving the office during the day, hated it. because you're on your head, because I probably know what you're going to say. Because when I would leave the office in the middle of the day for any reason, I would see all the cars and when I was a younger man, before I was leading anything, I would think, oh man, it'd be so cool to have people work for you, that do what you tell them to do, so you don't have to do the stuff you don't want to do. That was what an immature person who's never led thinks. And then on the other side, I realized, man, these are people who have put their life in my hands. These are, these cars are Cars that house breadwinners in the family represent children that are being fed because of the paycheck they're getting, because of the thing that I'm leading. And I would feel this weight of responsibility and depression to where I would walk down the steps and try to discipline myself to not look at cars, because I would get overwhelmed with it and totally bummed out by it. I mean, was that one of your gateways of saying, I'm going to be OK with being responsible for people not just in poverty, but actual Americans, who I'm going to give him a paycheck to. Just tell us your journey. Yeah, I mean, it hasn't always been easy. But I was doing a radio show a few weeks ago, and they asked me, so what do you want on your tombstone? What do you want it to say? And I said that he treated everyone the same. And that's kind of what we try to do here at Convoy of Hope. Everyone's important. Everyone's valuable. And when you treat people with dignity, even though maybe they're low on the org chart, you treat everybody the same, they're more willing to help you. I think Convoy, one of the great untold stories of Convoy of Hope is how God has taken hundreds and hundreds of people from different walks of life, different places around the world and brought them together to accomplish one goal that's really important to God. So you know, I don't know if I thought a lot about what about that journey because it's just kind of been year by year, just doing the right thing. And I think, you know, not to get too spooky, but, you know, I believe that there's this spigot of blessing. And a lot of times our organizations, our churches, our businesses get outside the flow of that, right? And we have to reposition ourselves so that we are in that flow and we're drenched in His favor. And Convoy of Hope has done that repeatedly, where we've gotten really out of that flow. And when we've repositioned ourselves, then God has blessed. And our people are used to that repositioning. This is great. If you could see me right now on video, you'd see me take my finger and doing the winding up thing with Hal saying, go, go, go. Because I heard him speak at our retreat recently. You said this. And I think for those of us who lead something, we're always looking for the secret sauce. What's the secret? Like, no, maybe we need this structure. Maybe we need this campaign. We're always looking for that secret, though. You did this. I'll do that. And what you said is so counterintuitive of saying, no, look to see where God's moving. Where does he want to put blessings? And position yourself under that, whether it makes sense organizationally or not. That's right. It's interesting. I just mentioned Israel before. A friend of mine, Perry Noble, who's been on the podcast. Do you know Perry? Yeah, I do. Yeah. Yeah, Perry is a fascinating dude. When he led a church that was growing very, very quickly, and at that point, the church that I started in Leeds was not growing at all, actually. I did a little research as to why that was, what was going wrong. So I asked Perry, hey, what do you have? What did you do? What's been going on that's enabled you to grow? So he gave me some things. And then I said, oh, oh, and by the way, also, he said, our growth also started. When we started financially supporting Israel, it was linked to that. I was like, wow. Like, wow, God talks about his chosen people. Whatever you think about that, it's pretty consistent thing in the Bible. And so we started doing that. And I think that's a part of what you're saying of, yeah, you're positioning yourself. Does that make any organizational sense? Oh, you want to grow, so write more checks outside yourself that actually doesn't build your own infrastructure. No, that makes zero, zero sense. We found an organization that deals with justice issues in Israel. And we did that. And that's part of what you're saying. Talk more about that. Encourage us as leaders, challenge us as leaders, to maybe get off the addiction of having the fix it answers and getting to the stream of God. Yeah, I think for us, I'll tell you our story. We were really focused on building convoy for many years because we were struggling as an organization. And so getting dollars in the door, getting people on your team, getting opportunities, et cetera, et cetera. And when we repositioned ourselves saying, okay, this is no longer, Convoy of Hope is no longer a, we're no longer a bucket where we're going to collect water. No, we're gonna become a channel through which God can flow his resources. So let's figure out how much we can give away rather than how much we can keep. And when we made that change, miracles began to happen. Second thing we did was we recommitted ourselves to serving the local church. It was no longer about building convoy, it was about building up the local church and elevating the name of Jesus, lifting up the name of Jesus. When we made those decisions, life began to change and we began to experience His blessing. I think a lot of organizations get into a competitive mode without really realizing it. They do. They're looking at the Forbes list and they're 990 forms. And I think we just took a different approach. Hey, we're going to bless other people as much as possible. And that was a bold thing to do. I mean, I think our board at times probably thought I was out of my mind, but that's proven to be what we needed to do to reposition. We just had that today, Dirk, didn't we? Were you able to be in that? We have a time of prayer. and or worship every day on staff, mandatory, 9 to 930, which was something that 20 years ago, I thought we never would have done. I'm not gonna pay people to pray, come to work, I'll pray it up. But we felt like I just was convicted, like I'm devaluing the role of God's people connect with each other, even if they're paid, and connect with God. So we've been doing it for a while. It's been really a rich part of our culture. Every day, half hour, every stand, staff member, mandatory, every day you're working. And today we had this, I don't know if you had the same thought there. We had like, we did some worship and then we had like, I don't know, six or seven partners that we fund who work with people in poverty. And they were all just going to give us a little like snippet and then we're going to prey on them. The first two people, there was only like 15 minutes, 15 minutes. First two people took like seven minutes. just went off and went on and went on and on and on and on and on and on and on. And then finally there was like four other organizations who didn't even get to speak. And I said to a person who's over that department, I said, this is kind of what organizations are like. These nonprofits, they don't play well together. They think about themselves, period. They're not looking around down the row and going, oh, oh, there's three or other four people here that are going to come after me. And this is only a half an hour meeting. So they're just They had the mic and they took it and it really bummed me out. Those are good hearted people. I know the heart's in the right place, but it was absolutely a sign of not thinking about others and not thinking about other organizations. I have to think for my organization, so I'm going to take it. That's what you're saying. That happens all the time. It does. It certainly does. Not with churches. Churches don't compete with one another. No, churches are, churches are very, very good teammates with each other. No comment on that. So your competitors, if you will, or people who are in your same league, are World Vision, Compassion, and Convoy of Hope. World Vision, great friends with the board member at World Vision. I know the CEO there, Edgar, pretty well. Crossroads doesn't support World Vision, but I know that organization really well. Compassion, I know extremely well. If we're not the biggest, we're one of the biggest people who we've just thousands and thousands of kids are fed and educated every day because of what we do in the church. And then I'm familiar with Convoy of Hope, obviously, because we're engaged there. How would you view the differences, for those that just want to fill our knowledge base out, how would you view the differentiators between you, Compassion, and World Vision? Those are really fine organizations. You know, and I. I'm going to dodge a little bit and just tell you that I'm really not a student of other organizations priorities. You know, all I can do is like you being an observer from the outside and then have obviously conversation with them to know that they're really fine people with big hearts and they do a great work. So I don't know that I can differentiate between us and anyone else, but I can tell you that, you know, We have as one of our core values that we are committed to working through local churches anywhere in the world across the United States. If we can't partner with churches, you know, we have to really look in the mirror and make sure it's something that God has asked us to do. So that is one thing that probably differentiates us from other relief organizations, if you will. As a leader, answer the question. I am surprised that as a leader, as a founder and leader of a half billion dollar organization. If you had told me 20 years ago that I would be doing this, I would be surprised. If you had told me 20 years ago, I would be thinking this, I would be surprised. Like what is the, your experience versus what your assumptions were? Tell us about it. Yeah, I think, I think, you know, if you're asking how I've changed, I think I'm a lot less judgmental, more understanding. of people in general than I was 30 years ago. I think the other thing would be, I think I've traveled to 85, 90 countries now. That would have been a surprise. You know, I've had the opportunity to travel the world. I've also been surprised by the amount of death that I've seen. I've seen death all over the world. Tragic situations. Yeah, that's messed me up. The smell of poverty, no matter where you go in the world, it's always the same, isn't it? Last time I was in Nicaragua, it just dawned on me. It's the smell of branches that are green being burned to be able to cook your food. And that smell mixed in there is garbage. The smell of poverty is the same, no matter where it is in the world. It's so true. It's so true. You know, but I will say this, that's right on. I will say this, hugging someone who's living in poverty, who isn't clean is probably one of the high points of my life. Being able to engage with someone and shed tears, yeah, that's probably one of the high points of my life is when I have those opportunities to hug someone who's unhugged. Do you think that you've made sacrifices and if so, I'm sure you have, but I think you're going to say, no, I've made any sacrifices, but you have and you can defend why you haven't if you want to hold that line. But what sacrifices do you feel like you've made are the biggest sacrifice as a leader and convoy? Yeah, I think probably spending time, I've sacrificed time with my wife and my children. We have four daughters. By the grace of God, they've all, my daughters have turned out amazing. They love God, they love the ministry of God. My wife is incredible, but certainly made sacrifices in spending time with them as you go to serve the world and serve the poor and the suffering. That takes you to some very remote places, times when my life has been threatened and my wife and my daughters have had to worry about my safety. Those are some things that, yeah, thank God, He's protected me. He's kept us together when... Probably everything that I've done probably should have pulled us apart, but it didn't. Are they bitter about those sacrifices or your absence? Yeah, I think they have had to work through that, certainly as teens. When an arm is broken, when a daughter breaks her arm, when a daughter is performing in a high school musical, and you are gone. And so honestly, that's really what I- I preach against, Brian. I tell our people, learn from my mistakes. I was gone too much. In my early days, I really thought that if I worked harder, that somehow it would make God work harder. And I didn't realize back then that if I prayed that God could accomplish more in 70 seconds than I could in 70 hour work weeks. I wish I had prayed more and worked less. Man, I wish in the early days, I could transfer the wisdom I have now back to my 30-year-old self, and I wish I could transfer the testosterone I had as a 30-year-old self to my current self, you know? Yeah, yeah, right on. Gosh, I've got my major regrets in terms of things that I did ministry that I really didn't have to do. I just felt like I should do it, and I had the energy and testosterone to do it. My daughter was pitching softball, and I came from a campaign meeting for our first campaign, trying to raise money for a building. And all those campaign meetings were depressing. Half the people didn't show up. They weren't as inspiring as I hoped they would be. I left all of them depressed. And I showed up thinking I'd get the end of her game, and they're coming out of the game, excited that she had her first pitch. And gosh, I still got an emotion about it right now. And I just thought, they're all happy except me. I'm going, Matt. I didn't need to be at that meeting. It didn't produce the fruit. Now, you don't know that in the front end. The front end, you think it could, so your heart's in the right place. I think, maybe just my type A, the heart was in the first place. Got to achieve, achieve, achieve. But man, gosh, I worked on things that did not produce fruit and only gave me regret. Exactly, I can relate, big time. Yeah, and we preach that to our teams. We've limited the amount of travel they can have every month just because we want to keep them home. Yeah. Hal, is there anything you want to be talking about that we haven't talked about? Well, hey, first I just want to say thanks for the friendship that we have and thanks for all the crossroads has done for convoy and through convoy. Where I believe it's people like you, it's churches like Crossroads that really have been the engine that have really enabled us to go because You know, we don't budget for disasters. We just don't because otherwise you're going to hoard resources. We trust God to pay the bills if we do his work. And anyway, you guys have jumped in in so many big ways. Really, really grateful to you. Yeah, well, I'm grateful for you. I'm thankful that you've reached out to me and built into me long before, or long before our organization stroked a check to Convoy of Hope. You've, in many ways, I told you this last hour together, in many ways I feel discipled by you. when I'm with you. So you have blessed us greatly. I remember the first time I went to India, I went to see the home where Mother Teresa lived in Calcutta. I wish I could have met her while she was alive, but her room is still kept the way it was. Lisa was the last time I was there. Inside of her dresser, there is a saying, there's a phrase there. Do you remember what that is? I don't remember what that is. No, I don't. She quotes her mentor, and it is, my vocation is love. Love that. It is. My vocation. Her vocation isn't trying to have an organization that solves the problem. Her vocation is love. And I feel that from you. I feel that around you all the time. So thank you for loving on us. And let me just say to all of our listeners, hey, look, man. This is called The Aggressive Life. I want to tell you the beginning. You know, let's cry our tears till they're dry about how bad the world is. Let's stoke up feelings of guilt about how we're not doing more. No, no, if you've got two houses, you've got two houses. Great. Whatever. I wish that was you. No, if you've got an expensive motorcycle, I do too. I'm not going to feel guilty about it. This is, this was not the thing. I just hope you're hearing what house said. Here's some things you should be doing. It's called the aggressive life. You should be doing something out of generosity to bless somebody else. Something. I don't know what that is. Here's another idea. What is it that you see God doing or God would love that you're not sure if it would have an impact or not, but you think God loves it. It's that spigot of blessing, spigot, spigot, whatever it is. Get your ass in there. Get your ass in there. Get there and do that thing. That's called the aggressive move. Maybe, maybe it is blessing a staff member. Maybe it's doing something you haven't done before. Maybe, I don't know what it is for friends. Hal has inspired me, that's why I wanted him to come on today. He's had an unbelievable life. He's having an unbelievable life and impact. I want to be more like him. I want you to be more like Jesus. It's good stuff. We'll see, oh, oh, before we leave, Hal, any final like advertisement you want to give? If someone wants to find out more about Hal or Convoy of Hope, where do they go? Convoyofhope.org, yeah. We've got everything on the website. But, you know, I encourage people, hey, give, if you want to give something. Don't give it directly to convoy. Give it through your church. Your church provides accountability to organizations like convoy. So give it to your church. And that's probably the right thing to do. Now you're just trying to make me feel guilty. You're like, man, if I get people to give to Brian's church. By the way, Hal, this is a general podcast. Actually, few people in my church actually listen to my own podcast. They're like, I hear you enough. I'm not going to listen to your freaking podcast. But now I see what you're doing. Maybe Brian, maybe Brian will feel induced to have crossroads. Give him more money, because more people are just gonna give the crossroads. I see what you did there. You can't, don't try to get over your guilt mongering ways. Hey, I want God's blessing at every level. So we're gonna try and do things the right way. I encourage people, give to your church. That's good, I love it. Well, man, we gotta spend more time together. I've been helping you by you today, so it's good. So hey. We gave you something, go do it. It's called the Aggressive Life. Thank you, Hal, for being an example for us. Thank you for having Convoy of Hope. We'll see you next time on The Aggressive Life. Hey, thanks for listening. For all things aggressive living, why don't you head over to bryantome.com, find my new book, Move, A Guide to Get Up and Go Forward, as well as articles and much, much more. And no matter where you listen to podcasts, why don't you take a second and leave us a rating, leave us a review. It really, really helps us drive new listeners to show we wanna help as many people as possible, just like we may have helped you, we wanna help others. So why don't you help us out. If you want to connect, find me on Instagram at Brian Tome. Aggressive Life with Brian Tome is a production of Crossroads Church, Cincinnati, Ohio.