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Narrator: You're listening to
the humans of DevOps podcast, a

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podcast focused on advancing the
humans of DevOps through skills,

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knowledge, ideas, and learning,
or the skil framework.

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Romano Roth: We have not yet
progressed really into the

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direction of DevOps, but many
companies are doing is they say

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we have that DevOps silo
introduced or we have the DevOps

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engineer, but that's not really
doing DevOps.

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Eveline Oehrlich: Welcome to
humans of DevOps Podcast. I'm

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Evelyn early Chief Research
Officer at DevOps Institute. Our

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podcast today titled today is a
really, huh, I'm not saying it.

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Let's wait. DevOps is dead.
Question mark, exclamation mark.

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You'll know why when we are
finished. Today, we have with

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us, Romano Ross, who is chief of
DevOps at a service provider

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software service provider.
Hello, Romano. Hi, Evelyn. How

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are you doing? I'm very well.
All good. All good already to

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roll up the sleeves and tell us
more about a variety of things.

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But before we go there, I want
to just quickly introduce him

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and Romano. If you have anything
to add, please do so. So Romana

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is a leader, Senior Consultant,
architect and software

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development expert. He has over
20 years of professional

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experience in many different
domains, including the financial

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insurance, cybersecurity,
medical aviation. What did I

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leave out? Is there anything
else you want to add or motto?

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Romano Roth: No, I think that's
it more or less. The only thing

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I could add is, I'm also
organizing the DevOps meetup

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Zurich, which is monthly meetup
we're doing it's free to join.

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And I'm also the president of
the DevOps days, Eric, which is

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a two day conference, we are
organizing, and there are all

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over the place all over the
world in all the big cities.

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Therefore, these conferences,

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Eveline Oehrlich: Excellent,
great addition, I actually went

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to the tourist one, and, of
course, many of the other ones.

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So that's great. I did not
forget that, that. That was a

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great experience. All right.
Welcome, again to our podcast

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today. So my first question is
chief of DevOps. I love that

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title. Chief of DevOps is
fantastic title tell us what

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does the chief of DevOps to?

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Romano Roth: Yeah, it's an
awesome title. So the chief of

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DevOps is a thought leader. So,
as a thought leader, you are

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speaking, you do conference,
speaking, you are doing videos

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and doing a blog post. But when
it comes to Chief of DevOps in a

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company, you are the solid
leader about DevOps in that

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company, you define the
strategy, and also the offering

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that this company has, and what
skills and capabilities are

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needed to, to be on the market
and to do all of these

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offerings. And of course, you
also define the education

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program, and you also educate
the people in terms of DevOps.

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But the most important thing,
what you need to do is you need

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to work in projects. And only by
working the real projects and

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making your hands dirty, you can
really be a thought leader and

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the chief of DevOps.

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Eveline Oehrlich: I agree with
that. Of course, that's

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fantastic. Now I was listening
and watching a video you did,

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which really is I'm referring to
that video, in our title of the

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podcast, DevOps is dead. And in
that or DevOps is dead, kind of

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like a surprise. You talked
about business, the developers

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wall of confusion. And what I am
curious about, of course, you do

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your work in dark, but I think
you travel, as you said, across

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Europe and globally. What I'm
sorry, what I thought I would

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ask you Well, I am going to ask
you is have we not been through

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this conversation of DevOps
versus developer? You know, Dev

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versus ops versus business in
this wall of confusion and we

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really progressed yet to a
modern way of developing and

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delivering custom products to
customers and service and

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clients or are our wish I was
still asking, what is DevOps?

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DevOps is dead. I mean, all of
that. Give us your perspective

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on all of that.

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Romano Roth: So I would also
say, yeah, there are also

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people, which is say it,
everything about DevOps has

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already been set it, everything
is clear, it's everything is

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there, you just need to do it.
But when I go into companies, I

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nowadays still see the same
picture of the business,

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together with the customers,
they have bright ideas. And

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still, they write it down into
Word documents and into into

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JIRA tickets, and then they are
thrown over the wall of

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confusion to the development
team. And the development team

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then develops these bright
ideas. And they just do it and

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then they throw it over the wall
of confusion to a QA team, which

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is still there. And then they
test something and then they

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throw it over the wall of
confusion to the operation team.

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And still the operation team has
difficulties to to operate this

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software. So these were all of
confusions, they are still

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there. And what we can clearly
see is they are still there,

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because we still have silo
organization, many companies

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have not yet organized
themselves across the value

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stream. So that they really have
product teams, still, the

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companies are working in
projects, they still have

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project and the project always
has a start and it has an end

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and has a budget. And it all
boils down to yearly budget

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goals to KPIs that we that we
still have, we have not yet

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progressed really into the
direction of DevOps, what many

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companies are doing is they say,
Yeah, we are doing DevOps, or we

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have that DevOps silo
introduced, or we have the

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DevOps engineer, but that's not
really doing DevOps.

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Eveline Oehrlich: So really,
what I hear you say, is that,

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even if we say DevOps, without
starting at the higher level, in

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the organization, where there is
that common thinking in terms of

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product, or as you said, value
stream, it is going to be a

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challenge to truly live DevOps
or whatever ops, whatever dev x

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Ops is, right? We'll get to
that. Without having that

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perspective. Is that what you're
saying?

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Romano Roth: Yes, absolutely.
Because also, when you look at

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DevOps at the definition of
DevOps, and of course, there are

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1000s of definition. But as I
always say, DevOps is a mindset

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and the culture and the set of
technical practices. I think,

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when it comes to technical
practices, we are more or less

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okay with with that you know
them, but then changing the

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culture or the mindset is a
difficult thing. And it can

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always only come from the top
management. And this is

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something that all of the
companies nowadays are lacking

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that cultural change, and that
mindset change, which my opinion

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needs to come from top down.

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Eveline Oehrlich: Yeah, so from
a pessimistic perspective, which

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I usually don't take, but I
wanted to just point it out.

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Some of those DevOps teams are
fighting against windmills,

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because if there is not the top
down support on changing the

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culture, and as a product team,
it makes it a challenge.

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However, we know that they are,
as you said, on the technology

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side on the processes within the
DevOps that have been ordered

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within DevOps to have been a lot
of advancements. And those

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organizations are bubbling up
the outcomes and the results of

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their great work. And hopefully,
more and more of that will go up

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to those executive leaders to
see that it's an overall

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cultural change. Now, I want to
stay on that theme, quickly

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relative to one DevOps versus
multiple DevOps, right? Kind of,

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so if I have multiple, if I have
one DevOps team, small company,

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blah, blah, blah, might pass be
possible, but most of our

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listeners, excuse me, are in
enterprise organizations. So

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what is a model going forward?
Well, what's the model when

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there are multiple DevOps teams
in an organization?

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Romano Roth: So this is exactly
one of the topics I'm talking

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quite a lot nowadays. And as you
pointed out, when you are a

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small company, or just building
one product, then it's quite

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easy to do DevOps more or less,
but scaling that up is is

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difficult. And when we look at
that, then what usually happens

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is that companies tend to do a
little bit of DevOps. They build

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the DevOps silo between Dev and
Ops, which is just again a silo

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until you don't really get the
efficiency that you wanted to

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see, then when you look at how
DevOps really should be is that

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Dev and Ops are moving together,
all of the people are coming

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together across the value
stream, and they are building a

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cross functional team, then you
really are doing DevOps. And now

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when you think about that, and
you have multiple of these value

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streams, or product teams, then
you can clearly see that, out of

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that, you will have a lot of
inefficiencies, because many of

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these teams are reinventing the
wheel, they are doing their own

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stuff, which is of course good,
but they are not really reusing

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things. So the this this aspect
is, is quite critical. Because

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it you also have a quite a lot
of cognitive load in these

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teams, they need to really care
about building the product,

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operating the product and
maintaining the product. This

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also means that they need to
know quite a lot of tools. And

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this is difficult. And the new
kid around the corner, or the

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new kid in the block is this
platform engineering that that

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we are seeing coming up, where
you have a platform team, which

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builds the platform, and also
the API's and everything so that

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the product teams can build,
maintain and operate the product

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and do DevOps.

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Eveline Oehrlich: So we have
seen that platform engineering

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team, what is a skill I need, if
I want to become a platform

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engineer? What would you say?

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Romano Roth: You need to be a
software engineer. A platform is

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nothing else than also a
product. So when it comes to

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skills, in my opinion, it's
really that software engineering

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skill, because also building
that platform requires you to to

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build a product, the platform,
which has a user interface, a

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self service portal, a
marketplace so that you can

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enable the other teams. So you
need to know how to program a

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user interface, you need to know
how to program API's, you need

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to know how to program
databases. And but you also need

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to have is the, of course DevOps
mindset, DevOps skills. And you

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need to know a lot about how
software is built. So what kind

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of tools are good to use, so
that you can build up this

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platform so that the teams can
most efficient work with these

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technologies, which means
nowadays, you need to know a lot

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about the cloud technologies,
cloud native technologies.

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Eveline Oehrlich: Okay, great. I
would certainly not qualify for

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a DevOps engineer, as a platform
engineer, but I probably would

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be going down the SRE path Site
Reliability Engineering, because

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I have an infrastructure and
operations background. But I

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have another question. There was
always this, you know, when we

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do research on DevOps and read
in whatever magazines or

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whatever events we go to there
is or whatever vendor I talk to,

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because I do speak to quite a
few vendors, as I'm also having

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an industry analyst position.
There are these different terms

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def sec, ops, Biz Ops, dev x ops
DevOps, there's more and more

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coming out of the closet. So I,
and then of course, there's

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value stream management, right?
VSM. And all of them are related

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SRE and keep going, all of them
are related, but it seems to me

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and I know you you had this
argument with yourself as well.

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I was listening to your video,
it seems to me when we sometimes

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when we use the word DevOps
people or individuals or whoever

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thinks that this is just as
movement lol level somewhere in

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the development and operations
team, but it is bigger. So is

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DevOps, the term itself not
really serving our purpose?

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Should we call it DevOps? Or
Should this be called something

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else? What's your thought on
that?

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Romano Roth: Yeah. So let's,
let's be, quite frankly, when we

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look at the term DevOps, then
this term, DevOps is not very

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good. The term DevOps says
development and operation. And

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back in that time, it was okay
ish. I think it was around 2008.

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When this term came up, it was
occasioned as he pointed out,

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more and more of these terms are
coming up like dev SEC ops,

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which is development, security
and operation or biz dev ops,

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business, development and
operation. And but as I pointed

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out, DevOps is about bringing
all the people together, where

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you would need sort of a term
like def beats our QA, ops, and

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I'm pretty sure I have forgotten
someone. You can also call it

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ethics ops, or Deathstar ops.
For me, DevOps is really about

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bringing all the people all the
technology and all the process

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together to continuously deliver
value. It's really about how we

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can continuously deliver a
product or service to our

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customers. That's the important
thing. Now, of course, we can

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now argue what could be a better
term. In my opinion, this is

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secondary. As long as we have a
good understanding of what

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DevOps is, and what what it what
it is all about, then this term

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is okay. I also don't believe
belief that we really can find a

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very good term to describe that.

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Eveline Oehrlich: So what you're
saying is stop talking about

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what it is just go on, do follow
the paths, try to adopt the

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practices and change the culture
on the way, expanding it from a

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pilot, expanding it into
something more good executive

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buy in, and so on. And so, as we
have different maturity levels,

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I don't know if that is even the
right term, I'm questioning

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myself when I say maturity,
because as we know, we're never

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done with it, right? We, we move
into the next technology, we are

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adopting whatever Mehta or AR VR
rpa, different server lists,

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blah, blah, blah, all of that
wonderful stuff, wonderful

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stuff, our environment keeps
getting more complex, our

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demands for services and
products are tied to customer

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experience, etc, etc. So we will
never be done. But it's it's a

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two part question. The first one
is, when I am somewhere in a

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kind of good DevOps, journey,
high performing, and I am

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somewhere a DevOps Chief Chief
of DevOps. What can I in this

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case, you know, you are the
chief of DevOps, what would you

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recommend to those folks to
actually scale it further among

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that maybe high performing team?
What are some of the things they

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should be doing to expand their
their journey in their culture

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in towards the bigger foot print
of DevOps? And I don't mean it

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from a sorry to clarify, I don't
mean it from a technology

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perspective, I mean, or from
maybe not a process perspective,

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but really from a people from a
culture perspective.

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Romano Roth: So, what, what do
you need to do is you need to

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organize across the value
stream, I think this is really

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the magic you need to do you
need to identify the value

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streams in your in your company,
how you generate value, what

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kind of steps are needed and
what people are in there, and

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then organize these people in
these value streams. You can

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also call it product teams. Of
course, a value stream can also

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have multiple products, but it
is very important to organize

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around that value stream. And
secondly, what is also important

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important is to empower the
people and so empower this value

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stream give this value stream
budget. So that's the value

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stream itself can decide what is
necessary to do to make a great

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product or multiple great
products for For the customers,

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and now you can also see we are
shifting away from from projects

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from, we need to have these 10
features to a point where the

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customer is in the center, and
we want to have happy customers,

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but also of course happy
employees. So that we really are

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focusing on the on the customer
and building absolutely great

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products with building and
quality. So that will be my

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recommendation to organize
across the value stream, bring

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the customer into the center
half KPIs, according to to the

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customer. And also employees as
satisfaction and giving really

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empower the people in this value
stream give it giving them the

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budget and the power to decide.

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Eveline Oehrlich: Excellent. I
wanted to do a quick shout out

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to a project I'm involved in
with Helen Beal I believe, you

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know, Helen, right? Maybe you
don't know you don't you have to

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meet her. She is basically
besides her being a colleague of

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mine at the DevOps Institute.
She's also the chair of the

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value stream Consortium, which
is a, I think the first time

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ever since I've been in this
space, a variety of vendors are

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getting together, and are
researching and are applying

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common thinking and thought
leadership together on value

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stream management, and one of
the projects we're doing is the

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second notice the third year
we're doing research in the

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state of value stream
management. And just recently,

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Helen did a fantastic it's
called a pier scape with IDC.

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And if you just type in anybody
listening, if you type in pure

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scape, IDC value stream
management, you should be able

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to see the video and the
conversation around a value

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stream management a fantastic
ability to learn how to start

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that journey. And one of the
customers there actually was

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Netflix, a product manager of
Netflix, who has talked about

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how they are doing value stream
management in their company.

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Excellent. All right, looking at
the clock, why do fun

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conversations always go by so
fast? So pull out your crystal

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ball. Besides the conversation
on value stream management,

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let's hope there is more and
more interest and adoption of

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that product thinking in the
value stream management

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thinking. But if we, if we go
down the road, if we even can,

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right? If we look maybe two
years from now, what do you

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think? What is the future of
DevOps, then? Two years? What is

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that that is 2025? When you and
I will be sitting somewhere in

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soulish to have a cup of coffee
or cappuccino or an adult

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beverage doesn't matter? What
would we then see in DevOps.

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00:23:00,330 --> 00:23:04,620
Romano Roth: But we can clearly
see at the moment is Alta Vista

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was platform engineering, and
they were all of the toolings

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there is a lot of
standardization coming in, you

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00:23:10,500 --> 00:23:15,450
can not clearly see that it's
more under the hood. But we are

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00:23:15,450 --> 00:23:19,410
going to into an area where
software development gets

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00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:25,500
standardized. And in my opinion,
it gets industrialized, we are

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going away, let's say from just
always reinventing the wheel it

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into a direction of where you
are using different things

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together. And they fit together
because they are standardized.

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In my opinion, what we will see
is the build up of digital

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factories, you can already see
that together with the platform

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engineering companies are
building their own digital

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00:23:54,060 --> 00:23:59,370
factories, where in this digital
factory, the teams are organized

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across the value stream where
they are producing digital

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00:24:04,530 --> 00:24:09,600
products or cyber physical
products. And the platform

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00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:14,520
engineering team provides the
convenient belt for these

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digital factories in the
companies. So my prediction is

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we will see a lot of digital
factories coming up.

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Eveline Oehrlich: I would I
would bet you but I am agreeing

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00:24:27,510 --> 00:24:32,400
with you. So I will buy the
drink because I ordered a coffee

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or a cup of tea. No, I agree
with you. This is a great, great

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conversation digital factories.
That's something I'd love to

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explore further. But not today.
But really, really great

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00:24:42,390 --> 00:24:46,050
insight. I love that crystal
ball vision you have there in

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00:24:46,050 --> 00:24:49,110
the future. For my No this was
great. Now I have one more

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00:24:49,110 --> 00:24:51,900
question. It's a closing
question. It has nothing to do

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00:24:51,900 --> 00:24:56,610
with digital factories, DevOps,
or any of those terms. What do

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00:24:56,610 --> 00:24:57,510
you do for fun?

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Romano Roth: Oh, I love to
travel around the world. I love

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00:25:03,450 --> 00:25:07,920
to see new countries and in
these countries, I do a lot of

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00:25:08,100 --> 00:25:12,210
photography. I also have my
Instagram channel and I have a

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00:25:12,210 --> 00:25:16,740
second YouTube channel where I
post also some videos at the

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00:25:16,740 --> 00:25:22,380
moment. I do a lot of 360 degree
videos, which I love. And of

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00:25:22,380 --> 00:25:26,280
course, I love playing computer
games and I also read a lot.

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Eveline Oehrlich: Fantastic.
Well, if you ever make it to my

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00:25:29,699 --> 00:25:34,019
region of as I'm only really an
hour and a half north of you,

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00:25:34,469 --> 00:25:39,509
stop by give me a buzz. We'll go
and travel my hometown together,

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00:25:39,509 --> 00:25:43,349
you can take 360 degree videos,
I will check out the videos you

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00:25:43,349 --> 00:25:47,399
have done. Thank you so much. We
have been talking to Romana

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00:25:47,399 --> 00:25:51,449
Ross, Chief of DevOps at
SilkAir, which is a service

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00:25:51,449 --> 00:25:56,579
provider software consulting
organization. He does a lot of

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00:25:56,759 --> 00:26:00,809
work and talk leading so check
him out. Again, Amanda, thank

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you so much for joining me today
on humans of DevOps podcast.

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00:26:05,669 --> 00:26:11,069
Thank you for having me. Humans
of DevOps podcast is produced by

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00:26:11,069 --> 00:26:15,149
DevOps Institute. Our audio
production team includes Julia

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00:26:15,149 --> 00:26:19,769
pape, Daniel Newman, Schultz and
Brendan Leigh. Shout out to my

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00:26:19,769 --> 00:26:23,759
wonderful colleagues. I'm humans
of DevOps podcast, Executive

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00:26:23,759 --> 00:26:27,419
Producer, Evelyn early. If you
would like to join us on a

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00:26:27,419 --> 00:26:33,389
podcast, please contact us at
this very long email humans of

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00:26:33,419 --> 00:26:39,209
DevOps podcast at DevOps
institute.com. I'm Evelyn early.

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00:26:39,269 --> 00:26:40,409
I'll talk to you soon.

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Narrator: Thanks for listening
to this episode of the humans of

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00:26:44,850 --> 00:26:48,360
DevOps podcast. Don't forget to
join our global community to get

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access to even more great
resources like this. Until next

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time, remember, you are part of
something bigger than yourself.

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You belong