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Narrator: You're listening to
the humans of DevOps podcast, a

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podcast focused on advancing the
humans of DevOps through skills,

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knowledge, ideas, and learning,
or the skil framework.

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Kumar Chivukula: expectations
from the prospects and customers

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are huge, because they expect
everything to them yesterday.

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It's very hard and even though
you want to do it, but sometimes

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you need to understand balance
between what is possible versus

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what is not possible. And
sometimes you have to say no.

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Eveline Oehrlich: Welcome to our
humans of DevOps podcast titled

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with no code into the future.
Today, we have with us a very

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esteemed thought leader in the
topic, continuous orchestration.

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Our special guest is Kumar
Chiku. Tula. I hope I said your

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name correctly Kumar Hello.

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Kumar Chivukula: Yes, how are
you?

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Eveline Oehrlich: I'm fine. How
are you?

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Kumar Chivukula: I'm good.
Thanks for having having me. I

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really appreciate your time and
opportunity to talk to you.

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Eveline Oehrlich: Yes, excited
for you to be with us today. Let

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me give our listeners a little
bit of a background. And then of

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course, I'll open it up to you
because you might want to add

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something. So Kumar is an
experienced it and operations

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leader with experience
accelerating digital

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transformation and business
growth. With a customer first

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mindset at companies like Adobe
and Symantec. I think that's

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where you were before. Today, he
or you is the co founder and CTO

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of UB Sarah, driving the mission
to help companies deliver

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software fast, safe and secure
by a disruptive DevOps

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solutions. All of that sounds
fantastic. So thank you again,

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Kumar, welcome and glad that
you're here. Thanks for taking

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time out of your I'm sure busy
day. The first question of

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course, before we get started,
if our listeners who are of

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course roles like DevOps
engineers, app dev, folks,

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security people, individuals,
contributors, leaders, give them

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about the 10,000 foot level of
what does appsero really do?

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Kumar Chivukula: Absolutely,
thank you. So if you look at the

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current market, right, DevOps is
nothing new. It's been there for

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quite some time, the recent
explosion of the digital

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transformation of all the kinds
of press companies and multi

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cloud adoption, and the
technological changes that is

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happening in the cloud, the way
the rapid pace and the rapid

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pace. Like way the cloud evolved
from easy to instances, to the

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containers to the micro services
to the server less plus all the

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languages, it's very hard for
enterprises to keep up with

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existing the software delivery
management, it's very complex.

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It's resource intensive, and
it's challenging for them to

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keep up with agility, velocity,
and then also visibility. If you

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talk about like CTOs and CIOs
and CTOs like care for agility

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velocity based on our survey,
and then CISOs, and CIOs cares

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for care for the visibility,
governance doesn't mean that

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they don't care what other
things they do. But at the

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highest level, that's what it is
to solve the problem of how can

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we continue to help agility
velocity for the CTOs and CEOs

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visibility and governance, and
based on the practical

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challenges that we've seen and
the challenges that we see in

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the current market and the gaps
we started Apsara is that

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continuous orchestration
platform, what we do is we like,

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as you rightfully said, in the
early part of the introduction,

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our mission and goal is to
enable and empower enterprise

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companies to make their software
delivery faster, better and

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secure. It's a very broad, bold
statement loaded statement, I'll

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just quickly unpack that. Our
goal is to continue to protect

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existing investment of the
current enterprise companies.

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And when we mean by the current
investment, because people

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already invested in the DevOps
in the last three, four years,

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we want to make sure that we
invest we continue to protect

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investment, and using our
platform, accelerate the DevOps

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and Dev SEC of journey in will,
whether it be any cloud or

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whether it be AWS, Azure GCP, or
running in on prem, or working

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across any technology stack or
tool. So it just some summarize

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it together. Our goal is to we
continue to work with their

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existing customers and have them
keep the existing tool stack and

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build the new code pipelines,
which is one of the one of the

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value proposition where they
don't have to worry about

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building the pipelines manually
curate them and manage them at

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scale as well and providing the
end to end visibility with

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respect to governance and where
visibility with respect to doing

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more with less. And that's the
that's that's what we do. And

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think about for the lack of
better way to say that the way

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the sales force solve the
problem for the salespeople. We

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want our opposite of platform we
go and vision vision is to make

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make it easy for the developers
using offshore platform as well.

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Eveline Oehrlich: So what I
heard you say is that you are

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protecting existing investments
which is great because we do

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know we are in a challenging
situation right across the world

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budgets aren't growing as much,
I think between all the

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different analysts is about
maybe 5% or so in software and

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in services. So that's great
orchestration means to some

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extent you are making and
bringing things together, which

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allows folks to actually improve
their speed, reduce toil, and

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improve the reliability and
security of the services. So I

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think that's probably an
excellent, high level summary.

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Now, you are yourself a CTO, CTO
in a software company. Many of

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our listeners probably have
their own CTOs within their

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companies, but they're not in
software. But as a CTO in a

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software company, what does that
mean? What do you do on a day to

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day basis?

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Kumar Chivukula: Yeah, it's the
title wise is the the next

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startup company, we wear
multiple hats, and from the from

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the taking a step back and talk
about what we do. Probably I'll

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give my two cents. And I may not
be the true for everybody, but

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in the startup and working on a
day to day basis, building the

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product and setting the guidance
and vision. And those are the

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high level responsibilities of
CTO making sure that but I'll

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explain that in general, what I
see. So as a CTO, your job is to

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look at the future, look at the
current pain points of the

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customers and make sure that
that the current technology

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stack, also that the platform is
aligning to that and making sure

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that it is solving the problem,
the biggest thing is on top of

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the product, managing the
product and technology roadmap,

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we the CTO job is to make sure
that alignment between sales,

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marketing and product
engineering is very important,

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because it's very, otherwise,
the CTO cannot just go and build

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a team build the product and
technology. And next thing you

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know is after building the
product into the platform,

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there's no one to sell it and no
one to understand what it is.

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And alignment is absolutely
critical. And that is one of the

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biggest responsibility Besides
building and managing the

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technology stack and looking at
Division, looking at the

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innovation and whatnot. But
that's the second set. The

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second thing. Third thing is
making sure that right people,

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right people are in place to
manage this thing because CTO

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themselves as a city, we can't
solve everything, you can only

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solve so much. But you need to
have a right set of people who

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are managing the product, etc.
People who are managing the

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engineering, and then your
reliability engineering SAS

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platform, and you need to have a
proper team that manages

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architecture and design. So
otherwise, it's very difficult

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to bring it together and scale
the platform as well. Their

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highest level in the people in
the product, people process

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technology, and CTO plays a role
in all of them in the initial

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stages of the company, it's
mostly around product and

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people. And then when you start
to grow into this one, and it

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becomes a more process, and then
the technology comes into play

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along the way as well. So

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Eveline Oehrlich: So you
actually, and your role are an

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orchestrator yourself, not just
that your company does work in

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the orchestration, you actually
have the role of an orchestrator

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as well amongst the different
functions within your within

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your organization. Now, you
mentioned people and processes,

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of course, people is the most
important one and where I want

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to go a little bit further, when
you think about your day to day

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job as CTO, I'm curious, what
challenges do you face relative

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to some of the people in the
culture either within your

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organization? Or what do you see
within your installed base or to

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clients? Because you said you do
a lot of I'm assuming you're

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doing a lot of conversations
with prospects and clients? What

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challenges do you have and see,
relative to the human side and

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the culture?

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Kumar Chivukula: Yeah, the
expectations from the prospects

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and customers are huge, right?
Because they expect everything

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we done yesterday, it's very
hard and even though you want to

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do it, but sometimes you need to
understand balance between what

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is possible versus what is not
possible. And sometimes you have

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to say no and hard to say no in
the middle of the conversation.

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But we need to find a way to
establish the relationship and

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explain to the prospect and
customer in terms of like how

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they can need to align and how
they need to think through this

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one. Not everything needs to be
done yesterday, not everything

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is important. The
prioritization, alignment with

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respect to customer and also
employees is one of the biggest

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challenge that happens for many
of the companies. Once you have

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that alignment initial stages,
it becomes easier but as and

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when we add more customers,
things are going to improve. But

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once you build MVP once you have
a product market fit once you

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establish the go to market fit
it the journey becomes easier,

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which isn't we have an
inflection stage of product

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market fit to go to market fit
and the initial stages were

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building the product and
headstone, building the product

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and we're focusing on code to
coding and testing and

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validating and making sure the
product is ready. And then

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continue to add bells and
whistles on top of it and add

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security and add the
reliability, the scalability, a

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bunch of other features. That's
where the journey comes in. But

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the core product of core
philosophy is not going to

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change. The challenges are
associated with it in terms of

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like aligning the, the customer
vision opposite, the opposite of

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vision aligning customers. And
also making sure that our team

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is aligned to that is one of the
critical component of the CTO

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job. Because without that, it
will be very hard, very hard for

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either of the people to
understand why we're not seeing

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why we say no, or why we saying
yes, people are not going to be

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happy when you say yes to the
customer come back with an

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update, hey, we have to develop
this new feature new capability

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new, our new offering, and they
want to understand why and why

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not and what's ROI, what's the
rate of return on investment,

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these are the things we have to
invest, and we have to manage

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them. Because you don't want to
build it for one customer,

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right, and you don't want to
accumulate technical debt, you

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want to be very careful,
managing the technical debt in

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the company, and especially SAS
company is very, very

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challenging and very difficult
as well. But if you have to have

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build the culture in a way, you
continue to draw the line, what

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is the what what is the part of
the product? What is not? What

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is the core versus context? Once
you do that becomes easier

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conversation for, for having the
challenges with challenge the

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conversation with the customer,
also with the employees as well.

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Eveline Oehrlich: Great, I love
what you said core versus

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context, sometimes, in my role
as an industry analysts, which

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is my second job. When I go into
briefings with some of my vendor

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clients, they forget to share
core, they only share context.

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And that makes it sometimes very
difficult. And then one other

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thing you said, MVP, or minimum
viable product, I heard

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something just recently, which I
really have adopted. I'm going

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to call it a minimal lovable
product instead of a minimal

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viable product. Some of the
enterprise clients loved when he

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suggested that. Excellent,
great.

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Kumar Chivukula: Now a good
minimum lovable product.

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Eveline Oehrlich: Yeah, that's a
new a new vocab. I mean, I'm

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sure you heard about

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Kumar Chivukula: it before.
Yeah,

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Eveline Oehrlich: I think I
leveraged the aka stolen from

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somebody else. But I don't I
cannot remember. So I cannot

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give that person credit. All
right. So um, Sarah was founded,

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I believe, in 2020. And with a
vision, as you mentioned,

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software developers and DevOps
teams to achieve faster software

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delivery through an
orchestration platform and did

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some research, of course on ops
era. And I'm not a stranger to

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you, because I covered or looked
at, at your solution. When I was

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doing research as an industry
analysts. Looking at it, you're

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the first no code, DevOps
orchestration platform. So give

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us a little bit more context in
terms of, again, that

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orchestration platform, and
particularly in terms of no

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code, right, because I think
that's really what's intriguing

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with regards to our listeners,
because sometimes folks are a

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little bit afraid to say no
code, what do you mean, you're

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replacing me? And others are
saying, yes, that's great,

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because I can actually do
additional work which I can get

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to when I have an orchestration
platform. So that's kind of the

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backdrop of my question.

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Kumar Chivukula: Yeah, thank you
for the question is a really

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good question, actually. So
there's always misconception

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about the no code and low code
and this whole concept, right?

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So when we talk about no code,
it's more not about replacing

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people, it's about enhancing the
ability of the existing DevOps

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team and making sure that they
accelerate the journey, because

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otherwise, you end up doing
that, in our survey, about

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30 40% of the time they're
managing the tools and managing

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the pipelines. It's nothing
wrong with it, but is it really

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impeding them for them to help
developers innovate and shipping

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things faster, which is not a
good thing as well as evaluate.

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another data point is based on
IBM and Gartner survey that was

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done in 2019 2020. This was
again, two, three years back 15

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to 18% of the code that was
written by the most of the

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companies doesn't see light at
the end of the tunnel, because

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it is all done for internal
development, nothing that has

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been for customer. Imagine that
15 to 20% of the time that has

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been gone, invested by the
people, and the company is not

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generating the value that is a
product to the loss for the

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company and revenue loss and
opportunity loss. How can we

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have them focus on things that
they can help the company bottom

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line, and also help accelerate
the journey and make sure that

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they continue to stay current
with the technology, right? So

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if you look at that, do those
things then apcera will come as

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a like for It's like another
smart chatbot or smart Mini and

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for them like where they can
continue to accelerate the

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journey by leveraging opposite
orchestration platform. How do

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we do that we as a core
principle of apcera, we want to

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build reusable micro services in
the platform when what we mean

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reusable micro services so that
when we build a micro service,

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or a petrol function, we want to
make sure that it scales across

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many and many enterprise
customers. So as a in our in

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order orchestration platform, we
have three modules. One is tools

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and automation. Second one is no
code pipelines. Third one is

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unified insights. We we
explained previously, tool chain

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automation will help the
enterprise customer to protect

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their eggs Testing investment by
bringing the tools together,

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once they bring the tools
together using local pipelines

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within the local pipelines, what
we have is we built a bunch of

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integrations in a microservices
format. All the enterprise

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customers have to do it instead
of them worrying about the right

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and the glue code integration
code, or like Jenkins file, or

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maybe writing the glue, groovy
scripts that were maybe custom

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in scripts what they have, they
can leverage the existing

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microservices that we have, and
be able to build them as a part

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of Lego set, we are given the
Lego set, the DevOps team still

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have to conceptually, the their,
their own car, and to drive it

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the Release car, right, we're
not stopping them, we're not

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going to drive the car for them,
they have to drive it, that's

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still the responsibility of ops,
what we're doing is instead of

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them building the car, then all
by themselves, we're enabling

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them to build the car glue to
the reusable microservices, so

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that they can make the journey
faster, better and secure. And

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then last, but not least in
doing so they get to see the

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visibility aspect of it. So for
the for them to achieve all of

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them in a scale. It's very
cumbersome and difficult. You

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need to have a ton of people to
managing it like in my previous

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life, and both Symantec and
Adobe, and we used to spend a

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boat to the world's largest
software publishers, as you guys

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know, we spend about 60% of the
money that you spend on people

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and 40 personal tools. It's the
Yep, it's not easy for every

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company to scale, invest that
much money. And then there's

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that many resources, we're
talking about scale in the lines

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of poleetical. If a million
dollars per year just on

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software delivery management,
I'm not talking about software

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development, software delivery
management. So to bring it

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together, the no code pipelines,
what we talk about is like we

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give you the templates, within
the templates, you have

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reasonable micro services, we
let enable the enterprise

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enterprise customers to take the
templates build the templates

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for their own use cases, whether
it be sblc, which is a software

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development lifecycle that
includes across multiple

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languages, multiple technology
stacks, means stack, Java stack,

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dotnet, stack, and so on. So
forth, are SAS DevOps, which is

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Salesforce, snowflake,
Informatica, Adobe Experience

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Manager, APG and so on, so
forth, which is it DevOps. And

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the third one is about intra
intra as a code, all three

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things can be possible by layer
in the quality security gates,

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we have a deeper integration to
security stack and quality stack

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as well, which is included that
includes from the code time the

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code commit is done, we want to
make sure that we scan for

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secret keys passwords, and
ensure that no vulnerabilities

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are there. No known
vulnerabilities are there in the

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builds and deployments, and the
dynamic code analysis and making

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sure the containers that are
running, fully secured known

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vulnerabilities are not there,
or any any VMs are being

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deployed that vulnerability
management, we can also scan

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them. So having these things as
a security hygiene as part of

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the CI CD pipelines along with
quality hygiene, we'll help them

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make the software delivery
faster, but also make it secure,

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and also improve the quality
security posture significantly

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for them. So imagine that we
don't have any of these things,

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they have to do it with hundreds
10s of people plus a person

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leaves, and the second person
wants to come in, we do it all

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over again, because they don't
want to talk to the code, again

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understood a lot, but just bring
it back, we have the new code

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pipelines. What we mean by that
is not to replace people. It's

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about enhancing the existing
journey that they have, by

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taking the templates and the
reusable micro services help

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them build the pipelines at
scale across SDLC SAS DevOps in

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00:18:19,020 --> 00:18:19,650
Frazer code.

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00:18:21,810 --> 00:18:23,850
Narrator: Skill updates and
skill up hours are the perfect

332
00:18:23,850 --> 00:18:26,790
way to stay on top of the latest
DevOps trends and improve your

333
00:18:26,790 --> 00:18:30,960
skills from the comfort of your
own home or office, or virtual

334
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micro conferences and webinars
focus on DevOps and the tech

335
00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:37,620
industry and feature experts
because from both the DevOps

336
00:18:37,620 --> 00:18:41,730
world and top it companies, at
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337
00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,100
everything you'd expect at
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338
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including virtual sponsor
booths, competitions, and

339
00:18:47,130 --> 00:18:50,490
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340
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don't miss out, check out our
lineup of upcoming events on

341
00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,280
DevOps institute.com. And
register now.

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00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:00,690
Eveline Oehrlich: Sounds like
this actually will make if I am

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00:19:00,690 --> 00:19:05,610
in the software delivery role,
my job a lot more fun, because I

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00:19:05,610 --> 00:19:09,540
do remember conversations with
software developers who say, I

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00:19:09,540 --> 00:19:13,590
really like my job most of the
time. But there are a few

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00:19:13,590 --> 00:19:18,210
aspects of it, which are really
not fun. And I don't look

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00:19:18,210 --> 00:19:22,620
forward to those. And I think
you as you just described some

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of those tasks, if they are like
a cookbook or a playbook or a

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template, allow me to actually
step out of the mundane tasks

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and allow myself to actually
bring things together. That's

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one of the biggest challenge we
see. And we found when we did

352
00:19:39,300 --> 00:19:44,400
our upskilling that folks are
really starting to disengage

353
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with in connecting, not
connecting with what they're

354
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doing because some of the work
they're doing is just not as

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challenging and creative. So I
see lots of opportunities there

356
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now. Low code, and or no code
All right, what's the

357
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difference? I think the

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Kumar Chivukula: there is a
slight difference. And basically

359
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how we want to use it. It's
sometimes it's marketing term

360
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and buzzwords in the industry.
But low code or no code

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development is like, for
example, locode is called Give

362
00:20:18,839 --> 00:20:23,189
an example of low code, like in
the case of where some tasks

363
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that needs to be done repeated
way. And, for example, you want

364
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to collect a application
particularly, like, I'll just

365
00:20:29,159 --> 00:20:31,829
give an example of the DevOps,
you want to be in a position to

366
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repeatedly use your static code
analysis step across all CI CD

367
00:20:35,249 --> 00:20:38,729
pipelines, you can do the low
code, or no code way, low code

368
00:20:38,729 --> 00:20:41,579
way is nothing but you just
write a minimal code that can

369
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work work across various tasks
and leave it as part of the your

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stepper microservice and create
a template and use it across

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multiple multiple pipelines. And
that way, you know what to

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expect, what are the conditions,
what are the thresholds, what

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are the gates and so on so
forth, it's with a bit of a

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little bit more customization or
making it more meaningful to the

375
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existing your own environment as
well existing environment.

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Whereas a look no code, that
means that you just really like

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doing the plug and play,
basically, it's a plug and play

378
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and think about is like, your
Lego example, right? You are

379
00:21:15,599 --> 00:21:18,569
given a set of Legos and the
blueprint and the template. And

380
00:21:18,569 --> 00:21:21,839
for you to construct the thing
without you making the Legos and

381
00:21:22,019 --> 00:21:26,159
deliver the with the model,
where people like in the

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00:21:26,159 --> 00:21:29,519
different personas, like when
you look talk to it DevOps, and

383
00:21:29,519 --> 00:21:32,669
especially with SAS DevOps, it's
basically the focus is more on

384
00:21:32,669 --> 00:21:34,889
the configuration and making
changes at the application

385
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level. They don't want to be the
coders, traditional coders, like

386
00:21:38,009 --> 00:21:41,099
Java developers, or the good
Golang developers, and so on so

387
00:21:41,099 --> 00:21:44,699
forth. They care about having
something in a plug and play in

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a resort based approach, which
is what low code development is

389
00:21:47,939 --> 00:21:50,759
like, basically, they want to
just take something that is out

390
00:21:50,759 --> 00:21:54,629
there, create by clicking couple
of visits, and be able to create

391
00:21:54,629 --> 00:21:58,049
the pipeline for them. Whereas
no code, low code is like where

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00:21:58,049 --> 00:21:59,879
we want to give them a little
bit of opportunity for them to

393
00:21:59,879 --> 00:22:02,429
tweak it with existing
investment, and also be able to

394
00:22:02,429 --> 00:22:05,669
help them bring the existing
tools. As a result, we have to

395
00:22:05,669 --> 00:22:07,619
give them a little bit of
opportunity for them to tweak

396
00:22:07,859 --> 00:22:10,529
the Legos that they have. So
that I'm trying to give you that

397
00:22:10,589 --> 00:22:14,549
like example of the DevOps
context. So the they're in the

398
00:22:14,549 --> 00:22:17,729
industry standard standard,
they've kind of interchange in

399
00:22:17,729 --> 00:22:20,939
some areas, and they people
conveniently use it. But low

400
00:22:20,939 --> 00:22:25,109
core to me is there isn't 100%
locode is very hard to do it at

401
00:22:25,109 --> 00:22:27,899
this point in this is not fully
not there, but there are a

402
00:22:27,929 --> 00:22:30,659
couple for a particular use case
you can achieve the low code for

403
00:22:31,199 --> 00:22:34,409
for a particular use case, you
can you can achieve no code as

404
00:22:34,409 --> 00:22:36,929
well depends on the use case.
Depends on the persona.

405
00:22:37,980 --> 00:22:42,150
Eveline Oehrlich: Great.
Excellent. Okay, I want to shift

406
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,420
a little bit Toria installed
base because I know you know

407
00:22:45,420 --> 00:22:49,200
them well, because you do have
conversations and you are the

408
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,140
owner to take those
conversations and turn them into

409
00:22:52,140 --> 00:22:56,220
products, which is a great, a
great noble cause. What

410
00:22:56,250 --> 00:23:00,840
challenges do you think? Let's
maybe take the number one

411
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:04,260
challenge if you kind of go back
and think about your last week's

412
00:23:04,260 --> 00:23:08,460
conversations or last quarter,
while the quarter is I don't

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00:23:08,460 --> 00:23:09,900
know what yours. It's just

414
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Kumar Chivukula: the end of this
month.

415
00:23:12,390 --> 00:23:15,390
Eveline Oehrlich: Okay, so if
you go back to the to the last

416
00:23:15,390 --> 00:23:19,590
quarter, what would you say? is
the number one challenge your

417
00:23:19,590 --> 00:23:24,720
installed base? Or prospects
today? Half? And how are they

418
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,620
solving them? Besides, of
course, you are offering your

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00:23:28,830 --> 00:23:32,460
orchestration platform? That's
of course one, right. But what

420
00:23:32,460 --> 00:23:34,440
are some other challenges? I'm
curious.

421
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,260
Kumar Chivukula: There are a
few, but I think I'll highlight

422
00:23:37,260 --> 00:23:41,520
a couple of them. Especially
like in the, in the enterprise

423
00:23:41,550 --> 00:23:45,090
sector, digital digital
transformation is really key.

424
00:23:45,150 --> 00:23:49,050
And people will expect it to
transform because customer and

425
00:23:49,050 --> 00:23:51,810
their end user expectations are
different. Like nowadays, if you

426
00:23:51,810 --> 00:23:55,950
asked me six years back, you can
go back, go to the website and

427
00:23:55,950 --> 00:23:58,980
just or maybe mobile app, just
book a car and the car would

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00:23:58,980 --> 00:24:01,740
show up to the door, which is
Tesla in this case, it's very

429
00:24:01,740 --> 00:24:05,250
hard, I would have said no, and
there's no way and it's

430
00:24:05,250 --> 00:24:07,830
happening and especially with
the pandemic, it's even changed.

431
00:24:08,070 --> 00:24:10,980
We don't have to go to the car
dealership and get the car and

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00:24:10,980 --> 00:24:13,290
then the car has to show up the
car can show up to your door.

433
00:24:13,710 --> 00:24:18,240
And it's very hard to even
imagine that and that the this

434
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,700
type of innovation is happening
and customer expectations have

435
00:24:20,700 --> 00:24:24,060
changed and they like Amazon
prime prime example right? You

436
00:24:24,060 --> 00:24:26,910
just ship something, it shows up
the doorstep without you going

437
00:24:26,910 --> 00:24:30,360
and worrying about all of them.
So the behavior and the customer

438
00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:32,670
expectations have changed as a
result enterprises are dealing

439
00:24:32,670 --> 00:24:35,250
with digital transformation,
they have to otherwise they will

440
00:24:35,250 --> 00:24:38,760
be taken out of the business for
them and how do they do it

441
00:24:38,790 --> 00:24:42,180
without having the people then
without having the platform

442
00:24:42,210 --> 00:24:45,930
without having the way to manage
the overall software delivery

443
00:24:45,930 --> 00:24:48,810
management because they have to
transform themselves from a

444
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,150
retail company to more of a
software company or to maybe

445
00:24:51,150 --> 00:24:54,210
manufacturing company to a
software company, as Microsoft

446
00:24:54,210 --> 00:24:58,200
CEO said famously into those
data to those in depth tell

447
00:24:58,350 --> 00:25:01,260
every company has to become a
software guy Coming in, as a

448
00:25:01,260 --> 00:25:04,080
result, that people are
struggling with it in terms of

449
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,510
like trying to keep up with the
pace of the digital

450
00:25:06,510 --> 00:25:08,760
transformation and innovation
that is happening in the market.

451
00:25:08,970 --> 00:25:11,400
The second biggest challenge is
how do we do it in a more in a

452
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,950
secure manner. Because that's
another thing that is coming

453
00:25:13,950 --> 00:25:16,770
into the play, it's not just the
shipping the code, especially

454
00:25:16,770 --> 00:25:19,560
with the cloud, we would develop
something and just put it out

455
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,470
there in the cloud expect the
cloud is secure, that's a wrong

456
00:25:22,500 --> 00:25:26,340
assumption, you have to make
sure that your data, your your

457
00:25:26,340 --> 00:25:28,830
bills, your deployments, you
have to protect it, there is no

458
00:25:28,830 --> 00:25:32,310
other way around AWS and Azure
and GCP, they will only give the

459
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:36,480
offer the utility computing and
they'll give you the compute for

460
00:25:36,570 --> 00:25:39,570
a cost. And they have to run,
the enterprises have to run

461
00:25:39,570 --> 00:25:42,240
their application, they have to
manage the deployments as a

462
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,250
result coupled with software
delivery management in the

463
00:25:44,250 --> 00:25:46,980
digital transformation, along
with because it's continuous

464
00:25:46,980 --> 00:25:49,650
innovation, right? It's not like
you just do the release once a

465
00:25:49,650 --> 00:25:52,080
year, or once in six months,
it's a continuous innovation

466
00:25:52,290 --> 00:25:55,050
every week, every day. And
sometimes every two weeks,

467
00:25:55,050 --> 00:25:57,810
sometimes once a month depends
on the company trajectory and

468
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:02,490
their adoption and their Agile
transformation roadmap. So it

469
00:26:02,490 --> 00:26:06,210
varies from there, it's hard to
keep keep up with the pace of

470
00:26:06,210 --> 00:26:10,170
innovation also managing with
people with that. So it's we

471
00:26:10,170 --> 00:26:12,510
continue to see that that is a
digital transformation coupled

472
00:26:12,510 --> 00:26:16,050
with the software delivery
management along with DevOps.

473
00:26:16,050 --> 00:26:20,460
devsecops is one of the one of
the big no longer the nice to

474
00:26:20,460 --> 00:26:23,010
have any more for four years.
But it's nice to have now it's a

475
00:26:23,070 --> 00:26:26,100
line item, everybody's talking
about it, executives are talking

476
00:26:26,100 --> 00:26:26,490
about it.

477
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,680
Eveline Oehrlich: Which brings
me to my almost last question,

478
00:26:31,860 --> 00:26:36,150
it's around skills, we at DevOps
Institute are very passionate

479
00:26:36,150 --> 00:26:39,480
about upskilling, and helping
the different roles right, and

480
00:26:39,510 --> 00:26:42,210
in the last five years have been
conducting the research around

481
00:26:42,210 --> 00:26:47,640
skills. And we're just at the
point where we are releasing our

482
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,270
upskilling 2023. report in
April. So I'm doing a lot of

483
00:26:51,270 --> 00:26:55,590
research there. So if you have
to give advice to our listeners,

484
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,220
and remember, those are their
software developers, software

485
00:26:59,220 --> 00:27:03,000
engineers, there are DevOps
engineers there's SRE is, but if

486
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,720
there are a few things, you
would say, hey, really focus on

487
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,910
this? What would that be?

488
00:27:10,500 --> 00:27:13,770
Kumar Chivukula: It's the
continue to when you when you're

489
00:27:13,770 --> 00:27:17,340
in the technology field, it's
not a the what environment is

490
00:27:17,340 --> 00:27:21,450
changing around us. Right? So
and continue to keep up with the

491
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,180
basic core elements of the right
one is the one is the cloud

492
00:27:24,180 --> 00:27:26,880
stack, because cloud is going to
be there for next 10 years, I

493
00:27:26,910 --> 00:27:30,000
continue to be there, it's the
only wall which can change. But

494
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,140
keep up with the certifications
and keep up with Cloud level

495
00:27:34,140 --> 00:27:36,360
certification, there are a lot
of free courses that offer both

496
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,480
AWS and Azure GCP. And also you
can sign up for the course

497
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:44,040
Coursera Udemy. And then a lot
of the videos are available in

498
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:49,440
in the internet, where you can
just take advantage of them, and

499
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:53,160
then be able to upskill and
continue to upskill. And like

500
00:27:53,370 --> 00:27:56,430
attending the some of the trade
shows, and wherever possible,

501
00:27:56,430 --> 00:27:59,940
most of them are virtual now,
thanks to pandemic and most of

502
00:27:59,940 --> 00:28:03,390
the sessions used to be in
person now the virtual so that

503
00:28:03,390 --> 00:28:07,380
we have a lot more opportunity
for people to learn from the

504
00:28:07,380 --> 00:28:10,920
community. And effectively, a
new kind of like you have to

505
00:28:10,950 --> 00:28:14,730
transform into into more of SRE
DevOps team no longer just doing

506
00:28:14,730 --> 00:28:18,480
the configuration management did
they have to have a language,

507
00:28:18,510 --> 00:28:21,690
they have to at least understand
the data structures languages,

508
00:28:21,810 --> 00:28:24,360
and will be able to understand
the algorithms is very, very

509
00:28:24,360 --> 00:28:27,810
important. No, they don't have
developed all of them. But they

510
00:28:27,810 --> 00:28:29,340
will be dealing with the
developers who speak the

511
00:28:29,340 --> 00:28:33,390
language, having the idea about
all of them and be able to

512
00:28:33,390 --> 00:28:36,120
understand proficient in one
language will be always helpful.

513
00:28:36,120 --> 00:28:38,820
Because once you understand the
language, it's easy to replicate

514
00:28:38,820 --> 00:28:41,430
the knowledge across the rest of
the languages that are going to

515
00:28:41,430 --> 00:28:45,690
be there in the market. And it's
like, to me, it's we continue to

516
00:28:45,690 --> 00:28:49,830
keep up with the cloud vendors
what they're doing, and then

517
00:28:49,860 --> 00:28:52,770
basically, take one or at least
one of one or two withdrawal

518
00:28:52,770 --> 00:28:55,500
possible, which is one minimum,
to certainly have a

519
00:28:55,500 --> 00:28:58,620
certification in that so that
way you will know and then you

520
00:28:58,620 --> 00:29:01,200
will people recognize that
people understand the value and

521
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,740
value that and then having
keeping up with trade shows and

522
00:29:04,740 --> 00:29:07,560
also continue to leverage
advantage of the communities

523
00:29:07,590 --> 00:29:11,520
communities are things that we
have. Plus, obviously we have

524
00:29:12,270 --> 00:29:15,090
now we are going to be taught to
a Coursera Udemy and a bunch of

525
00:29:15,090 --> 00:29:17,190
other things LinkedIn learning,
they're all the things that

526
00:29:17,220 --> 00:29:21,330
resources are available at a
much cheaper rate than we used

527
00:29:21,330 --> 00:29:23,970
to be before and is accessible
individual so you can sign up

528
00:29:23,970 --> 00:29:27,150
for a monthly plan. You can sign
up for a yearly plan and put a

529
00:29:27,150 --> 00:29:30,630
plan a plan together, what wins
instructor led or like you can

530
00:29:30,630 --> 00:29:32,400
do the self paced learning as
well. So

531
00:29:33,420 --> 00:29:36,210
Eveline Oehrlich: Fabulous.
Fabulous Kumar, thank you so

532
00:29:36,210 --> 00:29:39,060
much. I have one more question,
but this is more of a fun

533
00:29:39,060 --> 00:29:43,980
question. Yeah. So what is your
favorite weekend activity? I'm

534
00:29:43,980 --> 00:29:46,320
assuming you have sometimes a
weekend.

535
00:29:47,460 --> 00:29:50,040
Kumar Chivukula: Yeah, I do.
Like obviously if a weekend

536
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,860
comes in, I want to spend time
with the family as much as

537
00:29:52,860 --> 00:29:58,710
possible and also like to me, I
my fun time is mostly around,

538
00:29:58,980 --> 00:30:04,050
catching up on Reading and
especially I'm not really

539
00:30:04,050 --> 00:30:06,150
reading books and books but I
think I listen to a lot of

540
00:30:06,150 --> 00:30:09,270
podcasts and listen to some
videos and follow the some of

541
00:30:09,270 --> 00:30:11,790
the blog posts and so on so
forth and try to keep keep up

542
00:30:11,790 --> 00:30:17,670
myself. And I try to take myself
out and then go for do some

543
00:30:17,670 --> 00:30:22,020
exercise and walk and long walks
and when they have a free day,

544
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,470
the last one is about like
catching up on sports and that's

545
00:30:25,470 --> 00:30:29,460
just I like sports and public
acceptance on the sports.

546
00:30:30,180 --> 00:30:34,320
Eveline Oehrlich: Great, super.
We have been with Kumar Chiba

547
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:38,970
Kula CTO for apcera, a DevOps
orchestration platform Kumar,

548
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,060
thank you so much for joining me
today on humans of DevOps

549
00:30:42,060 --> 00:30:46,710
podcast. Humans of DevOps
podcast is produced by DevOps

550
00:30:46,710 --> 00:30:50,790
Institute. Our audio production
team includes Julia Papp and

551
00:30:50,790 --> 00:30:54,600
Brendan Leigh. I'm humans of
DevOps podcast executive

552
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,110
producer Evelyn Yoli. If you
would like to join us on a

553
00:30:58,110 --> 00:31:02,310
podcast, please contact us at
podcasts at DevOps

554
00:31:02,310 --> 00:31:06,630
institute.com. I'm Emily
gnomish. Stay safe and hope that

555
00:31:06,630 --> 00:31:07,800
you tune in next time.

556
00:31:09,780 --> 00:31:11,850
Narrator: Thanks for listening
to this episode of the humans of

557
00:31:11,850 --> 00:31:15,420
DevOps podcast. Don't forget to
join our global community to get

558
00:31:15,420 --> 00:31:18,780
access to even more great
resources like this. Until next

559
00:31:18,780 --> 00:31:22,200
time, remember, you are part of
something bigger than yourself.

560
00:31:22,530 --> 00:31:23,280
You belong