Speaker A: Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Wisdom Chat.

Speaker A: And my wonderful guest today is Lucille Arm Passon, who is the director of Mind It in Leeds, and also is the founder of the Leeds Wellbeing Week.

Speaker A: So welcome, Lucille.

Speaker B: Thank you, Phil.

Speaker B: Really happy to be here today.

Speaker A: I really appreciate you giving up your time to come and have a chat with me about well being in the workplace.

Speaker A: Just as a starter, just tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and I suppose really what you do and your passion really, for that.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B: So I'm lucille, you're going to spot my French accent in the next few minutes.

Speaker B: I'm going to just put it out there.

Speaker B: I'm French, I live in Leeds.

Speaker B: I've been living in Leeds for quite a few years now, so I've heard.

Speaker B: I have a French accent with the Oxford hints lately.

Speaker B: I started working in well being after I have a business background and I was working for a small business in Paris before and then I realised I was on the verge of burnout when I left.

Speaker B: I left actually at the right time.

Speaker B: Thinking it through.

Speaker B: I also realised that my mom had burnt out twice and that a few people that I know, my age or older had also burnt out away on the verge of burnout.

Speaker B: So I started researching and then soon realised that it's not just me, my friend circles or my family that is actually a huge issue in the societies we live in.

Speaker B: And I decided to tackle it firsthand and created minded to prevent burnout from happening in workplaces and leads.

Speaker B: Our aim is to make burnout a thing from the past and that goes through educating, advocating, training people to spot the signs, but also equipping them to have the tools to prioritise their wellbeing.

Speaker B: So, in essence, we do wellbeing workshops and training and we also organise wellbeing days for organisations, elites and in the north in general.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's wonderful.

Speaker A: And I know when you're talking about well being, you're talking about the holistic well being, the whole person, aren't you?

Speaker B: Yes, absolutely.

Speaker A: When I think about well being for me in the workplace and thinking about what you've said about burnout, I remember one of the jobs that I did or the roles that I fulfilled.

Speaker A: I mean, I loved the job, I loved the work that I was doing, but one thing I realised was the ease in which you could, because of the work that you're doing, reach that point of burnout.

Speaker A: And it's the ability to recognise and know what to do to avoid that burnout.

Speaker A: And for me, seeing several people prior to me hit that point, I recognised some of the signs and realised I need step back.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A: Lawyer didn't recognise that.

Speaker A: I mean, what would you say to employers?

Speaker B: That's a funny thing.

Speaker B: Funny is not the word.

Speaker B: But that's let's say interesting thing about burnout is that you can spot the signs in others, but it's very, very difficult to spot the signs in yourself.

Speaker B: Usually the signs of burnout are around exhaustion, so being physically, mentally, emotionally exhausted, but also change of behaviour.

Speaker B: So becoming quite cynical or quite negative about a job, a project, a person having that sense of limited professional ability are signs of burnout.

Speaker B: So exertion and change of behaviour is what we look out for.

Speaker B: And it's very hard to assess your own change of behaviour, really.

Speaker B: So it's easier to spot the signs in others.

Speaker B: When we do prevention in workplaces, that's exactly what we do.

Speaker B: We try to tell people to spot the signs in others and then ask, Are you okay?

Speaker B: Ask twice to create that culture of looking after each other, supporting each other, being compassionate towards each other, because in the end, this is what is going to prevent burnout.

Speaker B: Because essentially there are several elements, so they're work related issues, but also lifestyle challenges, other types of responsibilities, if you're carers, the parents, for example, that can obviously also impact your overall well being and might lead to burnout.

Speaker B: But in the end, creating those workplaces where people look out for each other, support each other, find solutions together as a team, this is what is going to solve the problem.

Speaker B: So that's that as the organisational level, I'm not talking about the societal level, but it's the same in society, really.

Speaker B: Spotting the signs in your friends or family members or people from the community, reaching out to them, offering support in whatever way is, in the end, what is going to prevent burnout.

Speaker A: It's interesting when you talk about that, we talk about the workplace and we think it's almost as if, isn't it, that you come to work and you hang the rest of your life on the lack of coat hook.

Speaker A: You hang your coat up and you walk into work and that's as if you put the rest of your life behind you.

Speaker A: In the actual fact, we know we take everything that we are, whether that's family, society, what's going on in the community in terms of how you feel about things, we bring all of that to work, including our worries about finances.

Speaker A: When we talk about the Holistic side, and I know we were talking about it earlier, about the fact that we don't leave things behind, do we bring it?

Speaker A: And it affects every aspect of our lives.

Speaker A: What would you like to say about that?

Speaker A: What's been your experience in terms of what you've observed of others or even in your own life?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, from an individual perspective, we all know that it's unrealistic for an organisation or a workplace to expect for the worries to be left at the door.

Speaker B: We are human beings and we walk and work with our emotions.

Speaker B: They're always going to be there.

Speaker B: And the same with the worries, right?

Speaker B: So we might put them down our side for a little while.

Speaker B: That used to be easier before the digital age because supposedly you could not be reached at work while you were working by people at home or the carers at school, or the carers in the care home.

Speaker B: Your parents would be, for example.

Speaker B: Now, with a digital age, these boundaries are almost in existent.

Speaker B: We are always carry all of our hats at the same time from a workplace perspective now, so we know it's unrealistic.

Speaker B: What can workplaces do?

Speaker B: It has to be really understanding and empathetic to try to put yourself in the shoes of the coworkers and embrace this whole person coming to work.

Speaker B: Because somebody who is going to feel seen, appreciated and understood is always going to remember that.

Speaker B: Somebody who doesn't feel seen, who doesn't feel heard, or doesn't feel comfortable enough to share what they're going through in real life or outside of work is also going to remember that.

Speaker B: But the impact is going to be much more negative on the long run.

Speaker B: So a workplace that is fighting burnout, a workplace that is embracing the whole person coming to work is very much about really understanding what people are going through, but also creating that space for compassion, space for discussions, and accepting teamwork as teamwork should be.

Speaker B: Which is, if your tank is really low today, then I can take over.

Speaker B: And I know that next week or next month when I have one of those days, you're going to have my back.

Speaker B: And as a team we can make the project move forward together.

Speaker A: That very much relies on individuals ability to exercise empathy, doesn't it?

Speaker A: And I think my observation has been that empathy is often an underused skill, an underused aspect of leadership, not necessarily seen as a key part of leadership.

Speaker A: But if you're exercising empathy, your ability then to see and pick up the signs of, say, burnout in another person or worry or anxiety or clearly there's something going on in this person's life.

Speaker A: And even though you may not know what it is, it's the ability to recognise it and perhaps then approach them in a way that doesn't condemn, is compassionate, but wants the best for them to find out.

Speaker A: What is it that's causing a change of behaviour, a change of sort of attitude that you could help and support them in?

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B: Empathy, compassion is a first step because this is what is going to bring awareness.

Speaker B: And if you don't have awareness in the first place, you cannot create change.

Speaker B: So you need empathy and compassion in the first place.

Speaker B: And then after that, the next skill is really active listening, being able to accept, welcome those conversations in a non judgmental environment.

Speaker B: So that's the second step.

Speaker B: And then the third step, I think, is around sign posting, because very often with the discussions I've had over the years with managers is people saying, well, I'm a bit afraid, really?

Speaker B: Or fearful of starting the conversations because I don't know if I'm able to welcome what I'm going to hear.

Speaker B: I don't know if I'm equipped enough.

Speaker B: So we do some training to equip manager with mental health support.

Speaker B: Mental health awareness, but also stress and anxiety support for the teams.

Speaker B: But at the end of the day, it's also very valuable and humble to say, actually, I'm going to start the conversation and if I don't know what to do, I know where to sign post this person and I know who can actually give them support.

Speaker A: Yeah, I remember one of my clients looked at the way in which they could support their employees in these areas.

Speaker A: And when you're talking about things like sort of active listening, it's teaching people how to do that and they recognise that it wouldn't necessarily apply to everyone.

Speaker A: But could they, in their respective departments, have people who volunteered to be, I suppose, support champions?

Speaker A: So they looked for volunteers to do that, but they wanted people who were empathetic and compassionate people, very much people people.

Speaker A: And in addition to that, they wanted them to equip them.

Speaker A: And you're right about the signpost inside, it's recognising.

Speaker A: Okay, I don't have everything, but I know somebody who might be able to help in that area.

Speaker A: And it's that ability, then, to signpost.

Speaker A: Is this something?

Speaker A: When I think about the well being week and sort of well being in the workplace, are you seeing companies more and more start to think about how they can apply well being in the workplace?

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker B: I would say when I started back in 2017, we were very much in the pre awareness phase, so the awareness around wellbeing and mental health in the workplace started.

Speaker B: But, for example, we didn't have as many mental health for status as we have right now.

Speaker B: We didn't have any wellbeing app providers as we have right now.

Speaker B: So it was very much pre awareness.

Speaker B: So that was a first gap.

Speaker B: A bridge has been built between the pre awareness and awareness phase.

Speaker B: Now, most of the organisations are aware that they have a duty of care for the team members and that they need to do something, or at least have a plan in place around well being support, mental health support in the workplace.

Speaker B: Now, there are two more bridges, really, that need to be built.

Speaker B: The first one is between awareness and action.

Speaker B: So many organisations are aware that they need to do something, as I just said, but they don't necessarily know where to start, how to do it.

Speaker B: They're a bit afraid because then they're afraid that they're going to open a Pandora box and all of a sudden, all the allegations, what people haven't talked about, is all of a sudden going to come out of the box.

Speaker B: So that's the second.

Speaker B: There's a lot of fear.

Speaker B: So that's what we do and we do it well, I think, because the feedback that we get from clients is positive.

Speaker B: So we have those introductory sessions around stress, anxiety.

Speaker B: We do a lot around digital well being right now, so how to find that balance or create that balance right in the hybrid work environment.

Speaker B: So those sessions are good entry points, they're good actions that organisations are starting with.

Speaker B: Most of the organisations, I would say, or at least many have some sort of actions in place, but it's not necessarily structured.

Speaker B: So the last bridge that needs to be built really is between action and strategy.

Speaker B: So we have four steps, really.

Speaker B: Pre awareness, awareness, action, strategy.

Speaker B: And the very last one, the strategy one, is the most relevant one.

Speaker B: It means that well being is going to be part of your strategic thinking at a corporate level.

Speaker B: So not only will you think about finances and KPIs and operations, but you will also have a piece around HR and culture and values, because this is what is going to embed well being at all the levels of the organisations.

Speaker B: And I would say that we still are the very early days of well being being part of the corporate strategy.

Speaker B: Most of the organisations are somewhere on the spectrum between awareness and strategy, really.

Speaker A: I think I would agree with you on that.

Speaker A: And based on some of the things I've seen in my work, and that is people being aware of something but not quite knowing what to do about it.

Speaker A: And also, I think there's almost a fear, certainly in the financial wellbeing market I've seen this, a fear of doing something for fear of doing something wrong.

Speaker A: Doing it wrong, actually, that's not my expertise.

Speaker A: I don't really know what to do and sort of hanging back.

Speaker A: Now, for any organisation that may be concerned about that, there's people like yourself they could turn to and you can certainly help them with strategy.

Speaker A: From what you're saying to me, and what I know of the work that you do, you can certainly help organisations build that holistic strategy and also draw in expertise that they need to support them in that way.

Speaker B: And I think there's also a fear around how much is it going to cost us?

Speaker B: Like, is well being another big spending point?

Speaker B: We're going to have to spend millions to get it right.

Speaker B: And the answer is no, really, because what we do when we work closely with organisations is that we look at what they already have and very often they have much more than they think they have.

Speaker B: So, for example, they're going to have an employee assistance programme, but are people using them, are employees aware of it?

Speaker B: Do they know all the benefits that the EAP has?

Speaker B: So we kind of assess what they already have, all the existing components.

Speaker B: Also what they already have is employees.

Speaker B: And employees, if we really build on that, bringing the whole self to work, employees have passions, they have hobbies.

Speaker B: Maybe you have a yoga teacher who would like to build on their yoga knowledge and would like to put together a yoga session at lunchtime.

Speaker B: Maybe you have somebody who is a knitting enthusiast and would like to do some knitting classes.

Speaker B: Maybe you have ten people who are passionate about cycling and they can start a cycling group, but for that one, you need to know it as a manager or an HR person.

Speaker B: So there needs to be some internal communications, some questioning, some service.

Speaker B: So you need to know it.

Speaker B: But also they, as employees, need to know that they're allowed to do so that they can start a group that they feel supported, they feel equipped as a whole person within the workplace.

Speaker B: So it's about negotiating the boundaries, really.

Speaker B: As employees, we need to put boundaries in place between work, non work activities, making sure we maintain and protect our own individual well being.

Speaker B: But as organisations, we also need to support employees to bring their whole self to work and make them feel valued and seen in that way.

Speaker B: There are many things that can be done, but it's always a fine line that organisations need to navigate.

Speaker A: Yeah, I like the way that you put the emphasis on the organisation demonstrating that people are allowed to do certain things.

Speaker A: It just reminds me of an experience many years ago, and this is, I suppose, the negative side of what employers demonstrate.

Speaker A: So I worked for an organisation that it was supposed to be nine to five, but actual fact, the work wasn't nine to five.

Speaker A: And it was interesting the way that the employers kind of set an example that wasn't really healthy and helpful.

Speaker A: And I'm not saying this to be negative on that particular employer, but it's interesting.

Speaker A: We don't often appreciate our own behaviours and if we're in a managerial leadership or executive, senior executive position, people watch us and they observe how we're demonstrating things and probably and often do take their lead from it.

Speaker A: So you mentioned digital well being and I thought just that's the prompt for this particular story at one time sat with my boss.

Speaker A: My boss was one of the directors of the organisation and he was just getting ready, finishing for the day and for the week and getting ready to go on holiday.

Speaker A: And he was packing up his laptop and his paperwork with it and he was taking it with him.

Speaker A: And I says, Why you're going on holiday, why are you taking this with you?

Speaker A: And he says, well, while I'm on holiday and relaxing, I can actually look at some emails and so on.

Speaker A: And I said, but while you're doing emails, you're not actually there on holiday, you're not actually relaxing.

Speaker A: And he didn't see it, he didn't appreciate that.

Speaker A: He just saw it was those moments of gaps.

Speaker A: It's his opportunity to get something done, cover some emails, thinking, well, that's a weight off his back.

Speaker A: I remember sat around a pool being on holiday.

Speaker A: My wife saying to me, what are you doing?

Speaker A: And I said, I'm just checking my emails.

Speaker A: And she says, While you're doing that, you're not here with us.

Speaker A: And I thought, not only am I not there with them because of my thought processes in work, but equally, at the same time, I'm not relaxing and.

Speaker B: You'Re not at work either.

Speaker B: Yeah, like that in between space.

Speaker A: And when I think about that behaviour, what does that say to other people?

Speaker A: So, for example, I'm an employee and I see my employer coming in really early in the morning and working away and leaving late at night.

Speaker A: Working away.

Speaker A: What message is that saying to an employee?

Speaker B: Yeah, 100%.

Speaker B: It's a big aspect of the wellbeing work that we do, because in all the sessions that we do, I always have an initial conversation with the organisers or whoever is in touch with me for the organisation of the sessions or the well being day, and I make big for me.

Speaker B: It's very important that managers, ideally senior managers, are present during the session because it shows all the team members that, yes, they can take an hour off their work schedule to attend the session.

Speaker B: And, yes, this is something that is valued by the organisation.

Speaker B: It's not only a tick the box exercise, or they ask for stress management session, let us book somebody, but while they're all in there, we're just going to get some work done on the side.

Speaker B: So it's very important to, as you just described, to really lead by example and as a manager, put the boundaries in place yourself.

Speaker B: Don't take your work on vacation, don't answer email after a certain hours that you ideally have agreed with your teams.

Speaker B: Technology can be very helpful that way in order to schedule email and make sure that people don't see.

Speaker B: Even if you are working at 10:00 p.m.

Speaker B: Because this is your working pattern or you have a specific important project to finish, if your teams see it, they are going to think that this is what is expected within the organisation.

Speaker B: It's very important to lead by example and as a manager, show the importance of well being for yourself and then that is going to obviously be embraced by the teams in an easier way.

Speaker A: Touching on digital well being, because this ties in with what you've just said as well.

Speaker A: It's understanding how you can use digital technology and the facilities it affords so that you can create a good behaviour.

Speaker A: Often I've heard people talk about emails being sent out late at night by their bosses and then them feeling under pressure, I need to respond to this.

Speaker A: And yet their boss has been surprised.

Speaker A: Oh, I'm surprised you've responded to it.

Speaker A: Yeah, you emailed me, what did you expect me to do?

Speaker A: But if they are able to communicate, there isn't an expectation for you to respond to this.

Speaker A: This is just so that when you are back in the office or in work time that you could respond.

Speaker A: If they could communicate that, that would be helpful.

Speaker A: But there are facilities within technology.

Speaker A: So I think about when I'm sending emails out, sometimes I might work late at night because I may not have worked earlier on and it's having that flexibility to work.

Speaker A: But being able to set outlook, for example, allows you to schedule when emails go out, you don't have to send them immediately, you can actually set them to go out, say, 09:00 the following morning.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B: I do that myself because I have a different work pattern.

Speaker B: I have two young children and sometimes I have things to do in the morning or whatever and I do work late at night sometimes and I do schedule my email because for me, this part of the respect that I want to show to the other person.

Speaker B: I don't expect you to read your emails at this hour of the night, so I am not sending you emails at this hour of the night, even though I'm working right now.

Speaker B: And this is not really well being e, we have to say, but this is part of the overall balancing and juggling that is the reality for all of us that we need to accept.

Speaker A: It is quite challenging, isn't it?

Speaker A: Because you yourself.

Speaker A: And I know for myself, I could so easily just sit and oh, I'll just cover off some things.

Speaker A: It really helps me.

Speaker A: And I'm in the zone and I feel there's a flow going on, but just reminding myself not everybody else is in that same zone.

Speaker A: And look at the time.

Speaker A: Don't expect people to respond in that way.

Speaker A: Or if I do send it, people might themselves feel that a little bit of pressure.

Speaker A: I need to respond.

Speaker A: And so it's just be mindful of these things, isn't there two things, if I may just touch on, and you touched on one of them briefly, and that was cost and it's interesting, isn't it?

Speaker A: There's been a lot of work done in the well being space and it's cost some companies an awful lot of money.

Speaker A: And one of the reports that came back, both through CIPD, the Chartered Institute of Personal Development, but also sort of general information coming back that these programmes weren't returning or giving a good return on the investment, therefore it was somehow putting some employers off.

Speaker A: What would you say to that?

Speaker A: What would your thoughts be on that front?

Speaker B: I think that return on investment from a wellbeing perspective is hard to measure because if you want to measure it in terms of productivity, direct productivity, we've done this wellbeing programme and three months later or the next quarter we've had that increase in productivity, it's not necessarily going to happen.

Speaker B: And that does not mean that the programme has not been successful, actually, it might mean that the programme has been very successful because people are taking the time, putting more boundaries in place and taking the time off that they needed and that they hadn't taken in the past three, four years.

Speaker B: And that might mean that it has prevented so many cases of burnout to happen from happening, but you're not necessarily measuring that.

Speaker B: So I think for me, the ROI return on investment approach from a wellbeing perspective can be discussed because I don't think you can actually fully measure a high return on investment from a financial perspective for the organisation.

Speaker B: What we see, though, is that usually there is a lower turnover, people feel seen, appreciated, so they're more likely to be loyal to the organisation.

Speaker B: And it's actually from a cost perspective, if this is angle we take, it makes sense to retain employees and keep them instead of recruiting new ones.

Speaker B: So that makes a lot of sense from a motivation perspective.

Speaker B: It also boosts motivation because team members feel listened to, they feel looked after, they feel valued, and as a consequence, it's going to boost their motivation to work as an individual and as a team.

Speaker B: So more projects might come out because of that.

Speaker B: But again, these are intangible aspects, so it's a bit hard to measure from a direct.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, I appreciate that.

Speaker A: And I suppose employees can look at things like level of productivity, so there's things like that, absenteeism rates.

Speaker A: And also not that everybody's always honest about why they're leaving, but if they can look at and if there's some way of looking at, well, has our attrition rates reduced?

Speaker A: And also if they can record reasons why people are leaving.

Speaker A: Although, as I say, I think that people aren't always honest because they're thinking about, well, if I'm really honest, actually, I don't think you could handle my honesty.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker B: Consequences.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I'm thinking about I might need a reference later on.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: So these exit interviews, they do make me laugh sometimes, because I think in having an exit interview, unless you've got a way of maintaining confidentiality and there is no ongoing repercussions, if somebody is being honest with you, then you're not going to get that honesty in terms of people leaving.

Speaker A: But if you can see the numbers of people leaving, reducing the cost of replacing somebody is phenomenal it takes to get them up to speed is going to cost the business heavily.

Speaker A: So if you can find ways of retaining people and things like websites like Glass does and others where they allow people to record their views of companies and also senior executives, people are looking at the areas they're looking at are how do they treat the people and how do they treat the environment.

Speaker B: From a reputation perspective?

Speaker B: Yeah, it can help a lot.

Speaker B: I think maybe some organisations think they've done a lot for well being, while actually they might have misunderstood what wellbeing is.

Speaker B: It's not yoga and meditation and training to run the next triathlon only it can be that for some people, but maybe some wellbeing programmes have had that cliche view on well being, and obviously it hasn't worked because there's as many wellbeing strategies as people in the organisation.

Speaker B: We all do different things to fill up our cup, to build coping mechanisms, to stress.

Speaker B: We all have our different strategies.

Speaker B: So if the definition of wellbeing in the first place did not appeal to all these human beings, then the programme cannot work.

Speaker B: So that goes back to what we were talking about, about listening to the people, including them in the wellbeing strategy, to really create something that is meaningful and adds value to them.

Speaker B: Otherwise, yes, wellbeing programmes are likely to fail because this is not what they would need their workplace or the organisation they work for, to do for them.

Speaker A: All too often, I hear companies say to me, and I had it not too long ago, we've set a wellbeing strategy in place, we've got things set up.

Speaker A: Oh, have you really?

Speaker A: What are you actually doing?

Speaker A: Oh, well, we've got the gym memberships.

Speaker A: How many people are taking up that?

Speaker A: Actually, not many.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: So it's not really helping.

Speaker A: It's interesting.

Speaker A: I said to somebody, how do you know that people are not interested in, for example, financial wellbeing?

Speaker A: That was the purpose of my conversation with them.

Speaker A: And they said, oh, well, we've done some research.

Speaker A: I said, oh, right.

Speaker A: What did you actually do?

Speaker A: They said what they looked at was things like, why were people absent?

Speaker A: Numbers of people leaving?

Speaker A: Or things like this.

Speaker A: And then all of a sudden, a colleague working with this person who I was talking with said, they said that the person I was talking to, there was no need for financial wellbeing, nobody was asking for it.

Speaker A: And this colleague then said, well, actually, we never asked them the question.

Speaker A: That wasn't actually one of the questions that we were asking.

Speaker A: We never asked them about financial wellbeing went quiet.

Speaker A: So I realised it's not just them, but anybody, if they're not asking the question, then people are not going to say what they really need, necessarily.

Speaker B: And acting on them, acting on the answers.

Speaker B: Because also, I think in organisations that have grown fast or that have become big, or they have lost their culture and values along the way, what sadly happens a lot of the time is that people say, oh, I'm not answering that questionnaire.

Speaker B: I've answered them for the past three years and nothing ever happens.

Speaker B: Nobody listens to me.

Speaker B: So I think there needs to be that integrity really about, okay, we are going to do what we stayed we would do.

Speaker B: So, yeah, definitely asking the questions.

Speaker B: Step one, listening actively, but also acting.

Speaker B: And if you cannot act, communicating about why you cannot act, but really having that transparency with the people who, at the end of the day, make the organisation work, move.

Speaker B: Forward.

Speaker A: I suppose there's a lot more work for an organisation to do if they've done these exercises in the past.

Speaker A: And then people are left feeling that, well, here we go again.

Speaker A: You didn't do anything last time, why bother?

Speaker A: So it means there's a bigger hurdle to overcome, isn't there?

Speaker A: I know you and I have talked about this in the past, and that is a company saying we really want to support our staff with their well being.

Speaker A: Can you run an hour session over lunch?

Speaker A: Now, we've had to sort of somehow navigate this in a way, haven't we?

Speaker A: And I think of myself and there's times when I perhaps I just haven't got it right.

Speaker A: And there's other times when I've really helped them understand there's no way in which we can promote well being.

Speaker A: In an hour, however, we can start the process of raising awareness.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: I mean, what kind of things have you are those the kind of things you've come across yourself?

Speaker B: Oh, yeah, absolutely similar.

Speaker B: The answer is no, we cannot.

Speaker B: But at the same time, even if we put a twelve month training programme, we're not going to solve everybody's needs and expectations within the organisation either.

Speaker B: The 1 hour session is definitely an introductory session, and as long as it's clear and that the organisation knows, then their expectations are in accordance with what they're ready to put in place.

Speaker B: The programmes always work better because it enables that kind of relationship building between the experts, the wellbeing experts that come and deliver the sessions and the organisation and the team members, and that allows that trust to happen.

Speaker B: And then those informal questions whispered in the corner of the room at the end, not sure if you're going to help me with this.

Speaker B: And then the important question comes out.

Speaker B: It's something that is not likely to happen after one session, but after a few, it really makes a difference.

Speaker B: And at the same, I had a funny anecdote.

Speaker B: I was organising well being days for Leeds University recently.

Speaker B: And then at the end of one of the wellbeing days, a man comes to me and they say, I have to tell you this, you changed my life.

Speaker B: And I had to sit down.

Speaker B: I was like, okay, hang on, what is this about?

Speaker B: And he told me, you did a session last year on gratitude, and there are a few things and he quoted a few things I said during the session that really hit me.

Speaker B: This was exactly what I needed to hear.

Speaker B: And since then, I've made it a point to go for a walk every day.

Speaker B: And I would not be in the place I am now physically, mentally, emotionally, if it wasn't for your talk last year.

Speaker B: So sometimes we think that the impact is very, very limited.

Speaker B: In a 1 hour, however, there might be somebody in this room that really, really needs to hear what you have to say.

Speaker B: I think the first feedback with one year time difference that I got, and that really made a difference for me as well, because that was a reminder that actually you might not get the direct feedback that you expect, but change takes time.

Speaker B: Building wellbeing strategies and being well being habits also takes time.

Speaker B: So it kind of makes sense to allow that to happen.

Speaker A: So I suppose the message to an employer listening to this would be, don't look for the quick fixes, because well being isn't a quick fix.

Speaker A: It does take time.

Speaker A: However, the benefits will be immense.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: And I agree with you, I love that sort of anecdote that story you just told, because I've seen it myself.

Speaker A: When we've done those short sessions and we've talked about money personalities and when people have understood their own money personality and then recognise some of their behaviours and some of those that are not necessarily helping and what they can do to make changes to those behaviours that do help.

Speaker A: It's been absolutely remarkable to see both the light bulb moments, but also in time, how it's actually impacted the way they approach their work and their productivity levels have changed.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker B: If, as an organisation, you think that the well being strategy has failed, my prompt would be, what else might you put in place?

Speaker B: Is an interesting thing to think about.

Speaker B: But also, have you waited long enough and have you asked the right questions?

Speaker B: Because you can't really go wrong with doing a wellbeing strategy because people are going to feel seen and valued and understood, but you also need to make sure you listen to them and act on what they have shared with you.

Speaker A: Lucille, it's been fantastic talking to you.

Speaker A: I'm aware that time has passed us by, but on that last note that you've just said for any employer who this that we've been talking about resonated with them, but they find themselves struggling, really, to know how to take it forward.

Speaker A: How could they get hold of you to have a chat and for you to assist them?

Speaker B: So the website is MindIT co UK.

Speaker B: So MindIT co UK.

Speaker B: All the information is on there about the workshops, webinars training and consultancy that we offer, as well as the, wellbeing, days and away days that we can put together for the team members so they can easily get hold of me via the website and find all the information there.

Speaker A: Brilliant.

Speaker A: Brilliant.

Speaker A: And I would echo that, that any employer who has been engaged with well being but feeling at the moment, it's not quite returning what they thought it would, don't give up.

Speaker A: And if you need that encouragement and that support, don't think it's going to cost an arm and a leg, they need to come and talk with you.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker B: Always up for that.

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker A: I know you are.

Speaker A: Thank you, Lucille, so much.

Speaker A: It's been an absolute pleasure speaking with you and yeah, all the best going forward.

Speaker B: Brilliant.

Speaker B: Thank you, Phil.

Speaker A: Okay, you take care.