Anna: Hello, and welcome to It Can't Just Be Me. Now, before we get stuck in, I'm going to start with a big thank you. I've had so many people who've told me they're loving the show so far, genuinely. So to all of you listeners, and those of you who've trusted us with your dilemmas, honestly, thank you. We can't do this show without you. So if you are enjoying what we're doing, please support us. Click follow, wherever you're listening, obviously, leave us a five star rating and review. And of course, tell all your friends about us on social media. It all helps. Now, onto today's show, our dilemma today is all about managing anxiety as a parent. And that big question, how can we make sure we don't pass our anxiety onto our kids? It's a worrying thought, but one that I think is really important to face head on. So let's get into it.
Speaker 2: Hi, Anna.
Speaker 3: Hey, Anna.
Speaker 4: Hey, Anna.
Speaker 5: Hi, Anna.
Speaker 6: Hey, Anna.
Speaker 7: Hi, Anna.
Speaker 8: Hi, Anna.
Speaker 9: Hi, Anna.
Speaker 8: It can't just be me who's really struggling with staying faithful.
Speaker 9: I definitely got menopause brain.
Speaker 8: I really want children, and he doesn't. I had feelings of jealousy.
Speaker 9: It's just all around the middle, I feel like a teletubby.
Speaker 8: And then I hated myself feeling that way.
Speaker 5: If you've got any advice...
Speaker 8: I would really appreciate any advice.
Speaker 9: It can't just be me.
Speaker 2: It can't just be me, right?
Anna: Now, I'm joined today by the funny, fabulous, and almost fearless comedian Suzi Ruffell. Suzi's success includes five sellout runs at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival, and she's also a constant on all the big shows like Live at the Apollo, the Jonathan Ross Show, and The Last Leg. She's also a mother, wife, and host of at least two podcasts, including Like-Minded Friends with Tom Allen and the LGBTQI series Out. But one of the big themes in Suzi's work is her battle with anxiety and the associated insomnia of waking up in the middle of the night with what she likes to call her 3:00 AM press conferences when you just can't turn off your brain. Do you know what, Suzi? I hear you. So as a professional warrior and parent, who better than to tackle today's dilemma? I want to give you all a quick heads up here, because today's episode does touch on the subject of suicide. So please bear that in mind when you are deciding when and how to listen. We'll leave some useful resources in the show notes. Suzi Ruffell, the woman with the best name in comedy. Welcome to It Can't Just Be Me. Where does your name come from, do you know?
Suzi: I think maybe France. But we're long, long residents of Portsmouth. No one has really left. I'm sort of the only one that's gone. Everyone's a bit suspicious of the fact that I've gone somewhere else.
Anna: So you guys really were the intriguing people from France, the Ruffells?
Suzi: Well, potentially, I think more likely like we stayed around about.
Anna: Oh, well, I think so.
Suzi: Maybe rubbed it on the way bit more rough and tumble than some French aristocrats.
Anna: So the Ruffells, well, listen, I'm so pleased that you could join us in the studio today, and I'm very interested to hear your thoughts on today's dilemma, which is a goodie.
Suzi: Yes.
Anna: But before we get into that, I start every episode by asking my guest to share their very own It Can't Just Be Me dilemma. So what have you got, Ruffell?
Suzi: I was thinking, Anna, and I don't know if you feel the same as me, but I thought that by the time I got to 37, I would've had this sort of thing organized in my head. But it can't just be me who cares too much about what people think. I was sold a story in my twenties that by the time I was mid-thirties, I would have it sorted. And let me tell you, Anna, I haven't.
Anna: Okay, I can tell you the exact age that you stop caring.
Suzi: Oh, great.
Anna: Yeah. 80.
Suzi: 8-0?
Anna: 8-0.
Suzi: That doesn't feel good.
Anna: I know. It's not good.
Suzi: Right.
Anna: That's the bad side.
Suzi: Right.
Anna: But the good side is that towards the very, very end of your life, you stop caring. I know this, because my mother's told me.
Suzi: Oh, really?
Anna: Yeah, she's about to hit 80, and she's now like, "I don't give a shit." So that's official.
Suzi: I mean, you-
Anna: How many years-
Suzi: ... couldn't have given me worse news. That's the topic of this podcast.
Anna: Have many years have you got then? I'm shit at math, so 30?
Suzi: That's 43 years more of me thinking, "Do they like me? I hope they like me. I think I made a good impression. I hope so."
Anna: You've got another 43 years of deep anxiety.
Suzi: Wicked.
Anna: Okay, good.
Suzi: It's great to be here.
Anna: On that note, I'm so pleased that you felt comfortable enough to share the fact that you have a deep anxiety and that you're worried about what people think about you, and you've got another 43 years to go.
Suzi: Yeah.
Anna: You'll be thrilled to know that you're not just stuck with me for the next hour, because we're also graced by the presence of our resident psychotherapist, Sam Pennells-Nkolo. Hello, Sam.
Sam: Hello. Pleasure to be here as always.
Anna: How are you?
Sam: I'm good, thank you.
Suzi: Can I just check with you? Do you think it'd be 43 years of more?
Sam: No, it could be tomorrow. You never know.
Anna: Oh, come on.
Suzi: See, this is what I was looking for. This is what I was looking for.
Sam: You never know.
Anna: She's lying. She's lying.
Suzi: She's not allowed to lie.
Anna: She's a psychotherapist.
Suzi: Exactly.
Anna: They all lie. They all lie. Now, listen, you guys, Suzi, Sam, are we ready for this week's dilemma?
Suzi: I am.
Sam: Ready.
Anna: Now, Amy sent this one in via email, so I'll be reading it out. You can take your headphones off, Suzi.
Suzi: Oh, okay.
Anna: And by the way, if you want to send in your own dilemma, you can go to itcantjustbeme.co.uk and record a voice note, or you can do what Amy did and email us at itcantjustbeme@podimo.com. Okay. So here's the dilemma. "Hi, Anna. I've always been a worrier, and at times in my life, I think it's held me back from certain things. But I've generally been able to keep it in check, and I've managed to build a good career as a secondary school teacher, and a fairly good social life, etc. Since having a toddler though, I feel like my anxiety has gone into overdrive. Friends of mine say that they feel stronger than ever after becoming a mum, but I feel the opposite. I found myself worrying about things that didn't bother me before. I worry about her safety a lot, especially when she isn't with me. And my husband says he thinks I'm overprotective of her." "All I want is to raise a strong, fearless daughter who's able to enjoy life to the full without being too cautious, but I can already see some of my habits rubbing off on her. She'll tell other kids to be careful in the playground, and it takes a lot of encouragement for her to try out new things. How can I manage my anxiety and make sure she doesn't take on too much of it?" This is a really difficult one. So Suzi, what is your knee-jerk reaction to that?
Suzi: Sympathy. I really sympathize with that. So I have a daughter, she's a toddler. And I sort of want to wrap her up in cotton wool, but my wife is very much like, "Go to the top of the climbing frame, throw yourself off it, you'll survive and it'll be good for you." I've always been an anxious person, and I really feel like when I became a mum, a lot of things I thought I'd put to bed as an adult with my anxiety sort of reared up again. Like, the health anxiety of being like, "Oh, God, is she okay? Is everything okay? I'm going to go and check her again. I'm going to check that she's breathing." And they're very little. I'm going to go and have an extra look. And then if I don't check, "well, then I haven't checked, then I should go and check, because what about if something was wrong?" And then you're in the vicious cycle.
Anna: Okay.
Suzi: And I don't know. And I feel like the only way to get out of it's by trusting yourself and going, "I have checked. And now, I know that she's fine. So now I must trust that I have checked." But it's quite hard. I can totally relate to those feelings manifesting and feeling quite overwhelming.
Anna: Well, let me ask both of you. So Sam and Suzi, because I'm not a mum, but you are both mums, have you noticed your own anxieties reflected back at you in your children? I mean, Sam, you've got a pained expression, and she's nodding.
Sam: Yeah. Because it's quite frightening when that happens, when you see yourself and your anxiety manifests in them and the way they speak to you. So sometimes my sons will say things that I've clearly said to them in the tone of voice that I've said to them. And I'm really shocked. Things like, "Be careful of walking in the garden. There might be a tiny bit of glass that you cut yourself on, and then we have to take you to..." It's catastrophizing, essentially. And my sons very close in age, and they'll be talking to each other like that.
Anna: Really?
Sam: And I've realized, "Oh my god, that's me."
Anna: And what about your husband? Is he anxious?
Sam: Annoyingly relaxed. He's just like, "They'll be fine. It's okay," which is very unhelpful when you're feeling anxious.
Anna: Yeah. Of course. So for you, Suzi, are you seeing your anxiety reflected back at you in your daughter?
Suzi: I'm trying not to. I'm really trying not to. Because I'm very scared of spiders, and I'm really trying not to be like, "Ah! There's a spider." So my wife's like... If I react, she'll be like, "It's fine to have spiders in the house, isn't it, mama?" And I'm like, "Yes, it is."
Anna: It is.
Suzi: "It's great, actually. I invited them here. We're having a party. Here, have a hat." But there have been times when you hear... I've heard her saying things to the cat where she's like, "Be careful. Careful on the stairs," to the cat.
Anna: Oh my God.
Suzi: Which is-
Anna: I love her.
Suzi: Yeah. Which is gorgeous. Yeah, I think that there's an extra thing that we probably should mention, because I think as well what Amy's maybe not giving herself a bit of a break about is the fact that she was probably pregnant for part of COVID. Certainly, the tail end of it if she's now got a toddler. And I think that, for health anxiety, a worldwide pandemic I think changed all of us in some way or another. And I think bringing a child into the world during that time as well, yeah, I really relate to that.
Anna: I think that's fascinating that, as you say, that perhaps for Amy, she was pregnant in lockdown, so for all of us, our health anxiety just went bananas, didn't it?
Suzi: Totally.
Anna: So coming out of that, she might be worse than perhaps she might be otherwise.
Suzi: Totally.
Anna: Sam.
Sam: Yes.
Anna: Researcher at Manchester University has found that one in four children in the UK has a mum with a mental illness, including anxiety. So this must be something that you see fairly often in your clients with children. Tell me a little bit more about that. Do they come in and talk about their own health anxieties, or their own mental health issues and how it might be affecting their children?
Sam: I mean, yeah, but it's interesting. Women tend to do it more than men.
Anna: Do they?
Sam: So again, this is another... And it is one of my bugbears. Typically, men will present as being more relaxed, not across the board, but women will always say, "I feel so anxious. I'm so anxious. And now, my child's going to be anxious." And it's like, well, yeah, maybe. And I'm not a fan of labels. What's the anxiety trying to tell you? What are you trying to tell yourself? Because actually, it's quite healthy to be anxious. It's okay. We're not supposed to be rid of it. But it's just this idea of, what do we want to present to our children, or not present? What kind of energy and atmosphere do we want to have in the house? And I always say to everyone, it's like in the round, is your child having a good experience? Most of the time, they are. But we really hyper focus on these moments of stress and anxiousness and are quite unkind to ourselves. And I think, in the round, is it going okay? Most people say yes. And again, it's that catastrophic thinking of, "I'm so anxious." Are you? So it's really looking at what does that actually mean when we say that?
Anna: I'm really interested to hear that it's mainly women who are saying, "I'm struggling with anxiety, and I'm really worried about my children."
Sam: Yeah.
Anna: Why might that be? Is there a difference in the genders?
Sam: Well, this is a difficult one, because I think it's nature nurture, it's context, it's societal. Men are bred to be like, "I'm really relaxed," even if they're not. But there is something, again, the research shows in terms of how boys relate, how girls relate, the type of play that they have. And that's not to say that girls just sit and read, and boys throw themselves off trees. It's just this idea of how they use their bodies, their physicality. And how that presents with moms, dads, and how we relate, like managing risk. Okay, if they're at a top of a climbing frame, how do we feel when they're doing that? Typically, children will hurt themselves when we are anxious. Because they're learning to manage the risk. And if we are going, "Oh my God," then they kind of go, "Oh my God." And they might hurt themselves.
Anna: So how do you manage this in your household, Suzi? Because in an all female household, and if we are hearing that, from a societal point of view, from a gender point of view-
Suzi: Yeah.
Anna: ... that perhaps women tend to be a little bit more overprotective.
Suzi: Well, I think that I sort of fall into that category. My partner Alice, she's a bit stricter, but she's also more gregarious. Whereas, I would be a bit more worried. But it is something that I've been very mindful of, because my mum's quite anxious and my Nan's quite anxious, though we'd never had that language when I was growing up. It was, everyone was a worrier. "Oh, they worry. We all worry. We're not happy unless we're worrying." That was sort of the mantra of the family. And now, I'm very aware that I don't want to give her that narrative that I had. It wasn't in a negative way at all. I had a lovely childhood. But that narrative of, "We're worriers, that's what we do. We all worry, don't worry about it, we worry. We're all worriers." I want her to feel a bit more in charge of it than I did as a teenager.
Anna: I'm going to ask you both a little bit more about that, because just thinking back to my own parenting, my mum definitely has suffered her whole life with various, I'd say, anxiety disorders. Very sadly, her mother took her own life when she was a teenager. So I think that trauma for my mum has clearly stamped her emotionally for the rest of her life, and that then got bled down to us really as children. And my dad had lots of control issues, which again crept down to his children. And it's certainly something that I've picked up on, because I'm quite an anxious person. Does that ring true for the two of you? I mean, Suzi, you said that your mum and your Nan-
Suzi: Yes.
Anna: ... were very anxious. What about on your dad's side?
Suzi: No, my dad's like, "Everything will be all right. It's all all right." He's a real geezer bloke. Everything's all right. You know that meme of that cartoon dog and there's fire all around it and the dog's speech bubbles is like, "Everything's fine." That's sort of my dad in a way. Things go wrong for my dad quite a lot, he's been bankrupt a couple of times. He's had businesses, he's lost businesses. He was actually brilliant. When I was starting out in standup, if I fucked up, if I did something wrong or what, he's always like, "Don't worry. Get yourself up, dust yourself off."
Anna: I love him for that.
Suzi: "Keep going, keep going, keep going. Anything that's worth getting to will take a long time. You've got to deal with the knocks. That is what life's about. Life's about the journey." He's very good at being like that. Whereas, mum will be like, "Oh, God, don't tell me. Just don't tell me. Don't tell me where you're driving to. Don't tell me where you're gigging."
Anna: So you've clearly got the anxiety from your mom.
Suzi: Yeah.
Anna: The worry, the worrying. But what about your dad? Because I mean, that must have played out in the fact you're a very successful comedian.
Suzi: I think that's down to him going for stuff and not being embarrassed to go for stuff and failing and being okay with failing. He'll be like, "Oh, I've done things wrong a hundred times. Don't worry." I'm doing that.
Anna: That's such a positive-
Suzi: It really is. Yeah.
Anna: ... message to get from a parent, isn't it?
Suzi: Yes.
Anna: "Just go for it, babe. It doesn't matter."
Suzi: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I think that I try and be more like that when I'm overthinking things, which is sort of a natural place for me to fall.
Anna: Yeah. But then as you say, you've still got your mum and your Nan in your ear going-
Suzi: Yeah.
Anna: ... "Oh, this is going to go wrong. This is a worry."
Suzi: Or like, "Oh, God." That's my mum's noise constantly when she's with my daughter. "Oh, oh, oh, she's... Oh, oh, I wouldn't let her do that. Oh."
Anna: Right.
Suzi: "Oh, God. Oh, she's... Oh, she's really brave." And you'll be like, "Do you want to just stop with the constant sort of narration?" It's adorable, and it really comes from place of love. But I don't want that to be the narrative.
Anna: Yeah.
Suzi: Because I think that may be fed unintentionally from a place of love.
Anna: Interesting. Absolutely. So what about for you, Sam? How did your parents affect you in terms of your attitude?
Suzi: [inaudible 00:15:39]
Sam: It's funny. My mom and dad are very different, and similarly, my mom does that with my boys. "Oh my gosh. Where's... Where's... Oh, no, don't do that. Oh." Every minute, it's kind of micromanagement, which she did with me, which I do now with them, and I'm trying to undo that.
Suzi: Yes.
Sam: Whereas, my dad was just like, "Yeah, it'll all be fine." I have taken on my mom's ways of being, I suppose, and I can really see it when we're together. Because it's like it's hyper. And I think we do this when our parents are around, or figures of attachment. We tend to become... I'm like on overdrive when she's around. I'm a bit more relaxed when she's not, not in a horrible way, but just because I'm sort of trying to manage everything.
Suzi: And are you the same as me in that you don't want her to worry?
Sam: Yes.
Suzi: So then you're managing-
Sam: So then you're managing everyone.
Suzi: Yeah.
Sam: And then really managing no one.
Suzi: Yeah, of course. Because-
Sam: Because then we're more stressed.
Suzi: And then people are like, "What's up with her?"
Sam: Yeah. Yeah.
Suzi: "She's crazy."
Anna: How much do kids sense when their parents are anxious, even though, as a parent, you're trying to mask it?
Sam: I don't think we can hide it. I think it's the idea of the more we're trying to pretend on some level, the worse it is. I think it's a sense, it's an energy, it's an atmosphere. And I think I've said it before on here, often when you ask clients, do you remember your childhood? If they've had a particularly traumatic childhood, they'll often say, "I can't remember." And then if I ask, "Can you remember the atmosphere? Can you remember the feeling?" They remember that. So if you think of the energy of what the house is like, the atmosphere, that's what children remember. They don't remember the little details. But that's what they're picking up on.
Suzi: Is it worth saying something like, "Oh, I feel a bit worried about that, but let's do it anyway."
Sam: I think so.
Suzi: Right.
Sam: I think being honest as much as you can be with children-
Suzi: Like naming that feeling for-
Sam: Yeah. "Mommy's feeling really frightened or angry right now."
Suzi: Yeah.
Sam: "I'm just going to take a moment." Rather than trying to pretend, because they seem to feed off that.
Anna: If you then name it, for a parent, how much will that child then want to fix it for? Because I was very conscious when I was growing up, my dad was really stressed out, my mom was very unhappy. So as her only daughter, I wanted to fix that. That made me very anxious as a child, that I wanted both my parents to be okay. So if we're saying, "Mommy's just sad right now," is that going to actually make your children more anxious?
Sam: I mean, I think it's a hard question. Parents will often talk to me about this sort of thing, and it's this idea of, "Well, we have to look at what's right for us as people." And if you can say, "Mommy's really sad, but own that. It's not for you to worry about. Mommy will sort it out, because it's mommy's feelings. Like you had feelings and sometimes you get sad, and mommy can't fix that." So you're modeling this sort of healthy attachment to your own feelings and your own stress and theirs. Because often, we try to save and fix them. And what we're trying to do is build resilience, so when we're not there, they can manage themselves.
Anna: Yes.
Sam: So I think modeling that, "Yes, I'm angry." "Yes, I'm sad." "Yes, I'm happy." "Yes, I'm joyful," all those things, "but they are mine, and those are yours." And that's really sacred in a way, rather than trying to fix it.
Anna: I think that that's really good advice, isn't it? As you say, modeling how you want your child to be by saying, "These are my feelings, and I will fix it, and this is how I'm going to do it." So that the child then feels safer-
Sam: Yeah.
Anna: ... I guess within it? So how much power do we actually have in shaping our children? I'm saying this, because I'm conscious of the fact that Amy says that her own anxiety held her back from doing some things in life, and it's clear that she doesn't want her daughter to feel the same way. So how much do we influence and shape our kids?
Sam: Well, it's interesting, because it's this idea of projecting ourselves onto our children, and knowing, "Well, what's me, and what's them?" And often, people talk about not knowing the difference. So my stress, or my anxiety, or my worry is mine. The worry of my daughter or my son might turn out into that is my worry. It's not their worry. So it's our own projection of our own fear onto them. Similarly, when parents want their kids to do really well, that's sort of achievement based. "You're going to do amazingly." How does that manifest? That's all about the parent. That's not actually about the child. So it's about separating the two, which can be quite hard.
Anna: Well, also, because thinking back to Amy's dilemma here, she's talking about her daughter in the playground, and she's been very cautious in the playground. Maybe that's just her personality, maybe it isn't Amy creating this stress for her daughter. Do you think as parents we've just got to allow our children to develop their own little personality? I mean, Suzi, what do you think?
Suzi: Well, I think that there's actually probably a nicer way that Amy could spin this, in that her child's being really caring to the other children. Maybe a nicer way to frame it for her could be, "That's what I do when I'm caring for her, and now, my little girl is caring for other people in the playground." And actually, that's a really kind trait to say to people to be careful. You're so right about not putting anything on them. I mean, that's what we are trying to do is just sort of have to let them be. Sam's the one that we need to be asking about this. This is just a comedian's bloody opinion, who's trying to put the jigsaw pieces together of getting it right.
Sam: I think it's hard, because as a parent, I can say one thing, and as a therapist I can say another. So I know when I'm saying to clients, "We must try this, and we must do that, and it's really helpful to do this." I'm saying it to myself as well, because actually, when you are in it as a human, it's very hard to do. It's not just this binary thing. It's so hard when you are in it to separate your own emotions from your child's. That idea of, well, you've put your love and care into something, and then if they don't turn out in a way that you want them to, something goes on for us. "What am I not doing well enough?" Then it becomes about us.
Suzi: And is it about... I mean, going back to my initial thing about caring too much what other people think is another thing that we're worried about are people's responses in the playground when in fact just going, "Oh yeah, they're like that sometimes."
Anna: That's a really good point, because that judgment you get from other adults and parents must be huge.
Suzi: Yeah, yeah.
Sam: That's very difficult, I think, to manage.
Suzi: Yes.
Anna: Do you get that Suzi? Do you feel that?
Suzi: I mean, we've had bizarre encounters with people who we don't know where a woman in a cafe said to me, "Oh, so who does all the dad stuff?" And I was like-
Anna: Oh, no, come on. Seriously?
Suzi: Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, "Okay." And I was like, "Oh, we just try our best to make sure she's happy." And the woman didn't know what to say. People have asked really inappropriate questions. She's got blonde hair and blue eyes, and she looks sort of different to me. And someone said to me, "did you use the sperm bank in Denmark? Because she sort of looks a bit Danish." And I was like, "I don't know you." It was like 9:26. I was like, "I'm not going to talk about cum. That's disgusting."
Anna: Yeah. Until at least 9:30.
Suzi: Yeah. How dare you think that it's okay. We live in Brighton, so it's a very queer friendly place. But I think that if we lived somewhere where we were the only gays in the village, there might be more of a performance element to it, where I wanted people to think that we were doing a good job if they didn't know any other gay families. It feels like there's a weird sort of pressure of being like, "We're doing it just as well as everyone else. We're trying our best." So I think that that's an extra thing that's sort of thrown in.
Anna: I was just going to say, so that's an extra thing for you as a gay couple that you're like, "I now feel that extra pressure that I've got to live up to the sort of heteronormative ideas of parenting."
Suzi: Yeah.
Anna: Okay. Look, let's talk about the fact that in your situations, there are two people parenting, and in Amy's situation as well. So Amy's husband thinks that she's overprotective of her daughter, and clearly, they've got different approaches when it comes to parenting. So Suzi, I'm just thinking about you and your anxiety, and your mum and your Nan and how you've sort of learnt that. How does your wife manage your anxiety at home?
Suzi: Oh, we're quite direct with each other, which I think is really useful.
Anna: Okay.
Suzi: And I also have therapy, which I'm very pro doing. But Alice, my wife, will be like, "I think this is maybe something that you are overthinking." She'll be like, "Where's the truth of this? So your anxiety is one thing, and then what's the truth?"
Anna: And does that work for you then?
Suzi: Yeah.
Anna: Is that what you need to hear from your partner is, "Look, it's okay"?
Suzi: Yeah. Yeah, kind of. "It's okay, and now, we're done with that." She wouldn't be super into reassuring me about it all the time. She'd be like, "We've spoken about that." Alice is my anchor. She's got her shit together. And she's very... She's like a proper grownup, she says as a 37-year-old woman. But I think that's the thing I think about working out where the truth of the anxiety is and then where the spiraling begins.
Anna: Is that catastrophizing, isn't it?
Suzi: Yeah. Like finding some space from the catastrophizing.
Anna: And Sam, what could Amy's husband do, do you think, to help her situation? Because he thinks that she's overprotective as a mom. So I'm concerned about how much that might be a critical voice.
Sam: I suppose it's the idea of reframing, and it's like Suzi said, instead of saying overprotective, we could be saying, "You really care about her safety, and I don't mean that to sound patronizing." But it's this idea of we can find ways of looking at this that's a reframe and a technique, and it's a real surface technique for everyone that they can use with their partners and their kids is instead of saying, "Be careful," we say "We stay safe on the roads." So we're always keeping it on the sort of positive and moving forwards. Same with our partners. Instead of saying, "You're a real grump," it could be like, "Actually, it'd be helpful in the morning if you try to at least pretend to be happy to see me." So it's about that reframing of language rather than being, you know. But it's just this idea of being really clear and positive and moving forward rather than... Because anxiety's all fear-based. It's fear driven. It's worry driven. So when we turn the language around, it turns the feeling around. It's not the other way around. We're all waiting to feel different, and then be different. We need to be different, then we'll feel different.
Anna: Let's move on to some concrete advice, and not only for Suzi, although Alice sounds like she's got it absolutely sorted, but also, for Amy. So Amy's in that horrible catch-22 of being anxious about being anxious, which is horrible. So in terms of concrete steps on how to resolve some of that, what could she do right away, Sam?
Sam: I think one of the biggest things about anxiety is all about the fear of the future. "What if this happens? What is happening?" And usually, it's nothing.
Anna: Okay.
Sam: "So what is happening? Am I okay right now?" And it's a very simple technique, but it does work. "Am I okay right this second? Yes. Okay." Life happens in small moments, whereas, anxiety usually is projected quite far into the future. "They're going to drown, they're going to this, they're going to this." Okay. Is anything happening now? So I'd say to root herself back into this second, which is actually quite hard. So keep coming back. I'm okay now, she's okay now, we're okay now." That's it.
Anna: What about longer term? As her daughter starts to grow up, what can she do to try and manage her own anxieties so that she's not projecting that onto her daughter, would you say?
Sam: I would really say it's about looking at her own dysfunction, our own dysfunctional childhoods, which we've all had dysfunctional childhoods on some level because we're just human. People make mistakes. "What is about that situation that is making me feel like this?" Our triggers are always about us. Our children just heighten them, just like our partners do, just like relationships do. So when we're worried about something, we have to ask ourselves, "What is this actually about for me?" And also, a good question to ask ourselves is, "What's going on for me? For me right now?" So when we have an argument with our partners, when we're worried about our children, it's actually about us. Look at your own childhood, look at your own development, look at your own parents. It's all of that. But that's quite hard work to do. I mean, obviously, I'm going to say this, go to therapy. But I think it's important, because it's very hard to do by yourself.
Anna: Absolutely. I mean, it's impossible to do by yourself-
Sam: Yeah.
Anna: ... really. So Suzi, with that in mind, what are you going to do to help manage your anxieties with your little one? You mentioned that you're having therapy.
Suzi: Yes.
Anna: Is there anything else?
Suzi: Do you know what? For me, I've realized that I need time where I'm not working and I'm not parenting. And I know not everyone has that luxury. But going to a couple of yoga classes a week are actually game changing for me. Or we are lucky, we live in Brighton, so we're right by the sea. It's just having a brisk walk, even for 20 minutes. It's so simplistic, and this is just me, but I find if I'm feeling a bit low, or I'm feeling quite anxious, if I go for a walk with some upbeat music, it can really turn my day around.
Anna: So it's that moment of self-care then, you are talking about-
Suzi: Yeah.
Anna: ... where it's actually, "Rather than being with my wife and my daughter, rather than being worried about work, it's just me spending half an hour on my own doing something that I really enjoy."
Suzi: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Anna: And you find that calms you down?
Suzi: Massively. Or again, it's sort of cliche things, but an early night, a good night's sleep, getting in bed at half nine, reading for half an hour and having the light off at 10. That can be game changing to how anxious I am. And not having a drink. I love a drink.
Anna: Yes.
Suzi: I love a glass of wine. But having four nights a week where I don't really helps.
Anna: That's really... This is fascinating for me to hear actually, because I'm just sort of ticking off the things. Sam, you know all about this anyway, because it's fight, flight or freeze, isn't it? It's how you do your anxiety, and we all do it differently. I do two things. I'll either fight and get very kind of angsty about it and worried and grumpy about stuff, or I'll flee, I'll flight. So if things get overwhelming for me, I will go and take myself off into the middle of nowhere in the countryside where I'm very fortunate I've got a little cottage up north. And I'll go and be in nature, and that will sort me out. So Suzi, you're saying for you, don't drink too much, an early night, and some time on your own.
Suzi: Yeah. And do you know what? I think another thing that's really important for me is not to berate myself about it.
Anna: So good self-talk?
Suzi: Yeah. Because there have been times when I've been like, "Oh, God, of course this is happening to me. Of course I'm anxious. Of course this, of course that." And that's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy, because then you're telling yourself, "I'm such an anxious person, I'm really struggling. Of course I'm struggling, because I always struggle, and this is how it's always been for me." Whereas, with my therapist, I remember her saying to me, "But your anxiety is sort of part of what makes you, you." I've written standup about my anxiety, and loads of people relate to it, and it's very normal. There are very few people that are going through the world feeling nothing about big important parts of their life. It's quite normal. So that's an extra thing I'd like to add, not being too mean on myself.
Anna: Well, the kind self-care-
Suzi: Exactly.
Anna: ... is important. But I guess what's interesting about what you're saying there as well is you've turned your anxiety into success, which is a great way of rephra... It's like you were saying, Sam, it's reframing, isn't it? Going, "Actually, I'm a really anxious person. Let's do something with this, and let's make this successful. Let's make it public, let's talk about it," which is a very clever thing to do. Amy, if you're listening, thank you for sending in your dilemma. I really hope that you can take something useful from this conversation.
Suzi: Don't be do hard on yourself, Aimes.
Anna: That's it. I was just going to say a bubble. Give yourself a break. Parenting-
Suzi: I bet you're smashing it, babe.
Anna: Well, it sounds like it.
Suzi: I think you're smashing.
Anna: Parenting is incredibly hard, and you're never going to get it right all the time. And just ask my mum, Janet, she'll tell you that. She's still going on about it at 80. So in the meantime, thank you to my lovely guests today, Suzi Ruffell and Sam Pennells-Nkolo. You've both been amazing, and thank you for being so open as well, Suzi. You're so wonderful that I'm not going to let you go-
Suzi: Oh, great.
Anna: ... just yet. Oh, no, you're staying.
Suzi: Okay.
Anna: I've got a couple more quick fire dilemmas for you.
Suzi: Yes, please.
Anna: Get those headphones on.
Suzi: I'm popping them on
Anna: Now, we actually recorded these at an event that we did with the Postcards from Midlife podcast at the London Podcast show, and what I'm looking for here is knee-jerk advice.
Suzi: Oh.
Anna: Yeah. So the first dilemma is from Abby, and she has a question about her boyfriend, who she's been with for four and a half months.
Abby: Hi, Anna. My name's Abby. I'm just wondering if I should be worried that my boyfriend is friends with his ex from about 10 years ago.
Anna: Oh, yes. Suzi Ruffell, hand up. What are we saying?
Suzi: No, not at all. Don't be worried at all.
Anna: Exactly.
Suzi: I'm friends with... I'm really good friends with one of my exes. And I think actually, if they're friends and there's nothing there, actually means he's probably a really good guy.
Anna: A hundred percent. So I'm really good friends with both my exes as well. And they're family to me, and I love them. And I wouldn't have it any other way. So I'm saying don't be worried at all about the fact that your bloke is friends with his ex. What would you say, Sam?
Sam: I would agree. We can't micromanage our partner's relationships as well. As soon as we start doing that, it's a road to disaster.
Anna: Have you ever had a partner that's tried to micromanage your friendship with your ex?
Sam: Oh, it's the worst.
Anna: I know, right?
Sam: Or with your friends in general. That's like... That's red flag time.
Anna: Out of interest, what would you say to Abby? And I don't know whether she is, but if she were trying to micromanage her other half, what would you say to her?
Sam: There's just no point. There's no point in doing that. It wastes energy. Often, people say, with this kind of dilemma, "I'm worried they're going to cheat on me with them." But if they're going to cheat on you, they're going to cheat on you anyway with them, with someone else with. There's just no point. It just makes us more anxious. And it's easier said than done, but we have to try to let it go. If they're going to have friendships, relationships, whatever that looks like, we cannot micromanage it. We just have to manage ourselves.
Anna: I guess if it's being done with respect as well, if your partner's saying, "Listen, I'm friends with my ex, there's nothing going on. I'm putting you front and center in our relationship, you've got to trust me," then ultimately, they have just got to let it go, haven't they, and just trust that person?
Sam: Yeah.
Suzi: Agreed.
Anna: Agreed. Thank you very much, gang. Okay. The next one is from Steph.
Steph: Hi, Anna. My name is Steph, and I'm in my mid-forties. My dilemma is with my 14-year-old son who doesn't understand the value of money, and I'm trying to work out, how much is it acceptable to spend on him, but I also really want to save so that I can retire early and go off into the sunset on my own without my 14-year-old.
Anna: Okay. The pair of you are looking fairly nonplussed by this one. So we know that parents are caring for their kids for years longer than they used to. So should Steph kick her son out at 18, sell up and travel the world? Suzi?
Suzi: That feels a bit extreme. But I do think knowing the value of money is very important. I think that when you get to 14, 15, I don't know what the law is these days, but when I was 14 I was waitressing, and I used to quite like having my own money. Oh, Portsmouth's got a top shop in sort of the early [inaudible 00:33:17]
Anna: Oh my God.
Suzi: I mean, the fact that I could work for two days, and then go in there and be like, "I want to get a pair of jeans and a dressy top," and the fact that it was my money, it felt brilliant. It feels great to earn your own money.
Anna: What are you saying about this, Sam? This is a difficult one.
Sam: It's so difficult, because they just don't get it for a long time. They don't understand it. It just doesn't make sense to them. I mean, my two are very small at the moment, but I'll say, they want to go to the corner shop, it's like, "I want an ice lolly." It's like, "No, please, can I have an ice lolly," first. And then it's like, "Well, how much?" They start maths quite early. So it's like literally, "Okay, we sit down, and we'll read for a bit, and you get 10p. And after that 10p, you can go and get your ice lolly." And they start to kind of see this exchange of, "Okay, I do this, I get that. I work, essentially, for it."
Anna: Yeah.
Sam: And as they get older, you continue that. It's not free. I think it's powerful for parents to say, "We can't have that, because mommy or daddy don't have money. We don't have it."
Suzi: Yeah.
Sam: "Haven't been to work yet." They don't quite understand it. But if you keep saying it and modeling, soon enough they get it.
Anna: So are we saying that for Steph, she's got to model-
Sam: Yes.
Anna: ... what kind of adult she wants her son to be? Right?
Sam: It's very difficult, because if they don't understand it, I think a hard line needs to be drawn. But it's painful, because it's a battle, and children will go on and on and on. And the easy route is to go, "Okay, have it." We've all been there, but we know how that goes. So it's about really staying strong in your own boundary, because it's so much more than just about money. It's about labor, it's about time. And they don't get that when they're little.
Anna: No.
Sam: Time means nothing.
Anna: I'm just going to push this a little bit more, because you are right, it's something to be mindful of. But Steph is saying here that she's in her mid-forties and, ultimately, she wants to be able to save so that she can retire early and go off into the sunset. How much should parents be selfish? How much should parents put themselves first?
Sam: It's so hard.
Suzi: Let's go to the expert, not me.
Sam: It's so hard.
Anna: I'm also staring at Sam.
Sam: I would say it's so important. And again, I say this to all my clients, "You must be selfish. You must be healthily selfish. Gas mask on your own face. What do you need?" And in terms of children, from my experience, if children know they're held in mind first, that we put them first in terms of we love them, we're always thinking about them, then I think it's fine. As long as children know they are loved and they are held in mind first, they're okay.
Anna: I love that. I think that's a perfect bit of advice, that, "I may not have the financial means at the moment to give you exactly what it is you want, but you are held in mind first."
Sam: Yeah.
Anna: "You're loved." And that's what counts.
Sam: Yeah.
Anna: Suzi and Sam, this has been such a pleasure. Suzi, thank you so much for coming on to It Can't Just Be Me.
Suzi: I feel like I've learned so much from Sam.
Anna: I know, right?
Suzi: And you, Anna.
Anna: Oh.
Suzi: It was lovely to meet you.
Anna: I can leave you here with Sam for another hour.
Suzi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Anna: Suzi, we'll leave all of your information in these show notes, including your podcast Out, which I believe I'm going to be guesting on.
Suzi: Yes, very soon.
Anna: And of course, Sam from the London Practice, thank you once again. We literally can't get enough of you.
Sam: It literally is my pleasure.
Anna: I'll be back next week with the next episode of It Can't Just Be Me. And if you're looking for something to fill your time with before then, please go to itcantjustbeme.co.uk and tell me all about your dilemma in a voice note. Or you can email them to itcantjustbeme@podimo.com. Whatever you are dealing with, whether it's love, sex, families, friend trouble, or anything in between, I want to hear from you. Nothing is off limits. Because you know what? It really isn't just you. From Podimo and Mags, this has been It Can't Just Be Me, hosted by me, Anna Richardson. The producer is Alice Homewood with support from Laura Williams. The executive producer for Mag's Creative is James Norman-Fyfe. The executive producers for Podimo are Jake Chudnow and Matt White. Don't forget to follow the show, or to listen ad free, subscribe to Podimo UK on Apple Podcasts.
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