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This is Lecker, I'm Lucy Dearlove.
Welcome to the Lecker Book Club.
Every month I'll be picking a newly released food related
book and talking to the author about the process of writing it.
I'll also be cooking from the book.
and writing about that on Substack and Patreon, you can join me there as well.
This month on the first edition of the Lecker Book Club,
Maria Bradford's Sweet Salone.
I would say it's a book that is full of amazing, delicious recipes.
It's full of culture.
It's full of stories about amazing people.
It's full of things that you probably I've never heard or known about, you
know, the background, the history and that of Sierra Leone, really.
And it's full of ingredients that will just be calling you.
Say, cook me, cook me, cook me.
Maria grew up in Sierra Leone and moved to Kent, UK, in her late teens.
Sweet Salone is the first English language book of Sierra Leonean recipes.
And in it, Maria wanted to share the unique nature of the food in her home
country, but also celebrate the country's people, including her own family.
But it wasn't necessarily a smooth process writing the book,
as you'll hear her talk about.
We spoke about the culture shock Maria experienced on arriving in the UK.
What it was like encountering strawberries and apples for the first time.
But it was Maria's deep rooted curiosity about all kinds of food that eventually
led her on a path to training at Leith's Culinary School and setting up her
fine diner and catering business, Shwen Shwen, a Krio phrase meaning fancy.
It's this outlook and experience that closely informs the recipes in the
book, from traditional dishes learned from her mother and grandmother.
to her very own brand of Afrofusion.
I met Maria in her publisher's office a couple of weeks before
publication and we sat down with a copy of Sweet Salone in front of us.
Obviously, Maria felt a huge responsibility writing about Sierra
Leonean food in an environment where it hasn't really been
widely written about before.
But...
It was also an extremely personal experience writing this book that at
times came almost too close for comfort.
I'm always thinking, oh, am I going to remember everything that I said?
Well,
I think it's fine
if you don't.
I hope I don't.
There's a lot.
Yeah, there's a lot.
There's a lot of writing.
And it's that thing when you're writing, you're sending bits.
By bit.
Bit by bit.
And all of a sudden your bit by bit turns into a book.
Yeah, okay, so that's how it felt.
Yeah.
Right, okay.
Because there's a lot of you in this book, isn't there?
Like a lot of you.
Yeah.
And how did that feel, to write that much of yourself?
It's um, it's a bit difficult.
Yeah.
Writing about yourself.
I do enjoy writing about other people.
But not necessarily.
Myself.
I, you know, I don't mind writing about my family and my grandmother and stuff.
Because I feel like there's always so much to say about them.
But then when it comes to you, you always feel like it's
drawing that line, isn't it?
Yeah.
Where you don't come across as me, me, me, me, me, almost.
Right.
But you're still kind of telling your story.
Yeah, and is there almost a sense that you want to, like, protect that as well?
Yeah, of course.
Absolutely.
Because, um, I'm, I'm, I've always been, like, even on social media,
I'm very protective of my personal space and, um, and, um, what I share.
Because I just feel like it's very easy for people to just
say, oh yeah, I know her.
Yes!
Yeah.
And you just, like, you just want to leave a little bit for yourself.
But then all of a sudden, it's all in a book.
It's like, oh, this is where I was born.
This is my date of birth.
That was a bit hard.
Because I'm just like, they've got my full name.
Nobody has, I've never put any of my full name.
Yeah.
Like what's on my passport.
And all of a sudden, my full name, my date of birth, it's in the book.
I'm like...
So why did you choose to include it?
Because you could have left that out.
I could have, but I think
it I could have left that out, but, um, yeah.
I don't know why I chose to include it.
I didn't write it, I think...
You know, I've always been guided about that.
But even in interviews, people do push because I think people just
feel like they need to know you.
Yeah, that's so true.
They want to know you, they want to know you.
And there's a lot of question about childhood and um, and stuff like that.
Yeah.
So, yeah, before you know it, you're given information that you don't want to give.
People get you in a room and your publishers you feel comfortable,
yeah, go for your coffee.
Yeah, that's really interesting.
And before you know it, you're spilling, you're telling them everything.
Yeah.
Find the details.
Mother's maiden name..
First pet.
Do you think
you could have written this book without getting that close to yourself?
No.
Um, because, um, it's, it's really, it's, it's like digging, digging deep,
but, and, um, and also there's a lot of positive obviously that I wanted to
write about, um, when it comes to my childhood, but it's also writing about
reality and the reality comes from writing and Going into other places
and just writing about those things.
Um, you know, trying to be superhero for everybody.
But you open up, there are people who read that and it resonates with them.
Especially when it comes to like, things like immigration
stories and stuff like that.
You know, there are lots of migrants, um, here in the UK
and other parts of the world.
And it's just like...
I'm sure we all have similar stories and similar feelings and, um, this
book is very much written where you, you're missing home, you're missing
food, you're missing people and all of that get blended into one and you find
yourself in this new world, in this new space and you're trying to find yourself.
And how do you find yourself?
You find yourself through food, through the things which is so familiar,
not finding that initially such a.
A rude awakening, like, it's just like, I'm in a new place.
Yeah.
And
is it that's how it felt when you first got here?
It Yeah,
it was, absolutely.
It's not just like you're learning about a new place, isn't it?
You're also learning new food, new cuisine, new ingredients.
Yeah.
Not necessarily as a cook, but as an eater.
Yeah, yeah.
Somebody who just loves to eat.
Somebody who's grown around food.
Somebody who's grown around lots of family members.
I grew up in a house where there's siblings.
There's my mom.
My grandmother, there's lots of aunties, there's lots of uncles.
Everything was surrounded about, around food and everything was surrounded
around, um, celebrating food.
And all of a sudden, there are new and exciting ingredients, of course.
Like, I've never had strawberry, I've never had blackberry, and that.
So it's all new and exciting, so you should be enjoying it.
But at the same time, you're not able to enjoy it because you're missing.
You can't relate to it.
Now I can relate to strawberry.
You know, now I'm a Kentish woman, so I can relate to it.
You have to, it's the law.
Yeah, it's the law, exactly.
Now I can relate to it, now it's like, in the summer if I don't eat
strawberry, I'm like, what's happening?
You know, if I go away and there's no, I'm sitting in Sierra Leone,
I should be enjoying it, I'm like.
I wish I was eating strawberries, you know, but it's such a, it's
such a strange thing, isn't it?
Yeah, and it's so interesting you talk about an ingredient like strawberry like
that because I think in this country there's There's such a lens on like, foods
that are quote unquote exotic, or like, non native, which is kind of most of our
foods, to be honest, because we import so much, we don't really grow that much.
Yeah.
But then actually, like, I think it can be really easy to forget for people who
don't broaden their kind of horizons in terms of what food they're reading
about and people that they're...
Reading that everything is exotic to someone.
Yeah.
So.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Everything.
And I should say the berries were like, even the apple.
Right, right.
Like apple.
Yeah.
We do have apple, but it's imported.
Yeah.
Okay.
And um, yeah, it doesn't taste the same.
Yeah.
And apple in Kent, it's quite crunchy.
Yeah.
It's so lovely.
And then, I never knew there was so many varieties of apple.
So many.
I just thought there was either pink or green apple, and that's it.
Because that's all I've seen.
Yeah.
So all of a sudden, there's these different apples.
And then, the things that are really familiar...
And when you do approach them, like the papaya, the mango, the
exotic fruit, they taste horrible.
So it's like a
twisted version of everything.
It's just like, what the hell is happening?
It's like, all of a sudden, what I know tastes disgusting and what I don't
know, the things that I don't know.
Everything is upside down.
The things that I don't know.
It has the most amazing taste ever.
So it's so good.
So you quickly start learning about things.
Um, you start reading.
I've always loved reading anyway.
So you quickly start typing and googling or researching.
Not really googling, there wasn't that much googling.
Researching and asking a lot of questions about, and being really curious.
I've always been curious about food anyway.
So asking a lot of questions.
But it's also weird when uh, Teenage person is asking
someone why is strawberry?
Yeah, you think how do you not know that?
How do you not know that?
And thinking, yeah, you, you think of something.
No, I'm not.
But just like, you wouldn't know what guayavis and you
wouldn't know what this is.
Right.
I'm just saying like, yeah, what is strawberry?
Yeah.
And you're asking because you want to learn.
And you want to learn.
Exactly.
You want to learn.
And you want to know.
And you're thinking these are all new stuff.
But then again, you know, I always say that's my superpower because I don't
only know about all the exotic stuff.
I also have new knowledge and new power of knowing all this new stuff
that a lot of people don't know.
So yeah, you know, I'm the best.
I know everything.
I'm like my own Google Exactly So, you know, you know everything so, you know
everything that you've grown up around Yeah, all these amazing exotic ingredients
we also know all this new stuff that you keep picking so everything keep being
exciting and Everything is exciting and it's only when you find that comfort
and that balance and you start settling because it takes some time to do that.
So you take that balance, you settle and once you're settled and then you
start thinking, okay, and that takes a really long time, I'm not going to lie.
And then you start learning.
It's a process.
It's absolutely a process.
And I think it's much better when you're younger.
Yeah.
Than when you're older.
Yeah.
So I always feel terrible for people.
In their twenties, thirties, forties, coming to a new place because, um, I
know it must be really difficult because you're settled in your way and probably
people had jobs, like I have uncles and aunties and people who are travelling
and they've had jobs before, they had a life, they had a home, they had
respect, they had people who looked up to them and all of a sudden they find
themselves in a place where they're nobody and it's quite a lot to process.
Yeah.
For an adult.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
So you were a teenager when you came here and you've stayed here since then.
Yeah.
So all of these kind of Kentish ingredients and other ingredients of
other counties of the UK, when did you start cooking with those ingredients?
My very first job that I had was at an Italian restaurant.
Oh, really?
Very first.
I was, um, at a college in, um, Tombridge.
And then I had a job at West Smalling, where I lived.
It was an Italian, little, small Italian high street restaurant.
And it was the very first place that I really started, like, with ingredients
and seeing more different stuff.
How amazing, simplicity of cooking and using different ingredients.
I was just there to wash dishes, but of course I was asking a lot of questions and
just seeing, you know, what they're doing.
Why are you putting this?
And why are you doing that?
And all of that.
You know, some of them were very open to talk about it.
Some of them were like, get out of my way, go face what you're doing.
But I was doing the washing and because I was so interested as well, I was um,
helping as well with washing vegetables.
Yeah, I'm prepping vegetables, washing vegetables and, you
know, taking supplies in.
So you get to see all of that, but then I had to leave because I went to uni.
But that kind of love for cooking and at home, I was still, you know,
all of a sudden I did find like the, the thing that I was doing more of
cooking was peanut soup, which is a.
We used a lot of peanuts to do like stews and soups.
So peanut soup, I could find peanut butter easy.
And then I had to find the right chili.
Yeah.
It was only bad side.
We don't really use bad side.
So to get the heat, in fact, I started with the bigger ones, the bigger red
ones thinking that, Oh, that must be hot.
No, it's not.
And then you move slower and then it's like, Oh.
And then you try it out and it's like, too much seeds, not the same.
Still, like, there's something missing.
But it's a little bit closer to that.
And then, you know, back then, supermarkets didn't even sell
Scotch bonnet chili at all.
So you start moving, moving, and then you're like, Okay, I'll
settle in with the, you know, this.
It's fine.
I'll make do with it.
It will do for now, but then it's comfort.
And so every time you cook that peanuts, I cook that peanuts, introduce
it to friends and new friends and that their eyes just pop open and
they're so excited by this new flavor.
Ooh, I didn't even know you can do peanuts, peanut soup.
I didn't know you can put peanuts in a sauce with chicken and
spices and put rice with it.
And.
It tastes this amazing and they kept calling it curry.
I'm like, it's got nothing to do with curry is, but yeah, but it's not curry.
I said, we don't call it that.
We call it soup.
And of course, soup in the European context is very different to us because
soup is not necessarily what we drink.
We don't have soup culture.
So when you say soup, it's something that you eat with something else.
Yes.
Okay.
So it's navigating.
I swear, it's like, do you want to come out for soup?
What?
Yeah, and I put a bowl of tomato soup in front of me and I'm
like, uh, Where's the rest of it?
Where's the rest of it?
Is this going with rice?
Oh no, you just drink it.
Oh.
That doesn't make sense to me.
That's not food.
You just drink
it?
It's a very fair comment.
And whilst I was at uni also, I was cooking a lot.
Yeah.
You know, experimenting with, um, ingredients and that.
And then I found Peckham.
Ah.
Because I was living in Kent, so I didn't know there was Peckham existed.
So I was more coming to London, when we come to London site view,
and it was more central London and stuff, and then found Peckham.
The day that I found Peckham, oh my God, it was like, How come nobody, this
has been paid, nobody thought to tell me there was a place where I can come.
And the insane thing was I got off the train at Peckham and
there was people speaking Krio.
Wow, okay.
Was that the first time that you'd heard Krio?
The first
time, exactly.
Do you know, like, it was just like, whoa, this is like, it was
just such an amazing feeling.
I could have cried, seriously.
It was just such...
An amazing feeling, the hustle, the bustle, it just felt like I was in
Sierra Leone and it just felt home and I'd found my new place and I could find
ingredients that I could relate to.
There was plantain, there was cassava, there was this, I had so many bags, you
know, I wanted to buy the whole pack and take it with me and it was so exciting.
Of course, then I started doing a bit of cooking, but not necessarily.
Professionally, which is for friends and home.
I started cooking professionally 2017.
Okay, and so what led you to that part of your journey?
What sort of sparked you to take that step?
It was a lot of compliments and a lot of, um, bussing around by family
members because, um, I was always making stuff and they were all like,
Oh, you know, you should do this.
You should do this.
And then my cousin got married and she wanted me to do the food.
And then I did the food for her wedding for 60 people.
Wow.
And it was so amazing.
Well, from the guests.
Um, everybody kept asking people that I didn't know, asking for my
card, asking how they can contact me.
I was like, what?
Really?
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
And then 2017, I started my first Instagram post of her wedding.
Just posted a little something of my cousin's wedding talking about it.
And I was actually really shocked by how many people were liking.
What I was doing.
Then, of course, that encourages you to do more, to experiment a bit more, but
I was still working because I was doing accounting and finance, so I still had
a job that I was doing, doing that bit by bit and just posting and they just.
more and more excitement.
And then I thought, you know, my husband was like, maybe, you know, these drinks
that people have been telling you is really nice, the chili sauce and
all of that, maybe you should bottle it and we do try farmer's market.
So I did.
And farmer's market again was a massive shocker and eye opener.
We just did a taster.
I ran out that day of farmer's markets.
I had lots of drinks and I ran out, I ran out of all the chili
sauce, ran out of all the drinks.
That's amazing.
And yeah, and just, uh, The interest and the hunger for people to learn
about new stuff as well was just, and I didn't know British people liked chili
that much until that farmer's market.
They were putting it on everything.
So I was just like, okay.
We might not sell any chilis here, but we love it.
Love it, yeah.
So I was just like, I can, okay.
So, yeah.
Started from there, but it's, again, still, you know, I had this thing where I,
maybe it's African in me, but I just like, I've studied for everything that called
myself, you know, I've gone to school, gone and had a degree, blah, blah, blah.
So I just felt like, you know, I needed to dig deeper into this food.
I know a lot about food.
I know a lot about ingredients and I cook a lot from recipes and that, but I wanted
to go to culinary school just to dig more.
So I went to Leiths.
Wow.
Okay.
And what was that like?
Very exciting.
Yeah.
I always thought I was academic until I got to later and I actually
realised I was made for cooking because everything just kind of, it
was like a puzzle fitting in perfectly.
That must have been such a kind of lovely realisation to be
like, this is where I need to be.
It was just, uh, the best thing and I remember him saying like,
it's going to be stressful.
Um, and then I never once found it stressful.
Wow.
The only thing I found stressful was getting there because I
live in Kent and it's in London.
But once I'm there, I never ever found it stressful.
For me, I felt like it was a place where I could go and relax.
That's how it felt for me.
It was just.
Things just.
Yeah, and so what, what does the training at Leith's involve?
It's very classic, classic French, I should say.
Yes, it's very classic, very classic French.
So, well, from there, before I went I knew very much, like, it was really important
to me to showcase Sierra Leonean food.
I'd written lots of...
Letters to different restaurants and different African chefs before
I went there, because I really wanted to gain an experience in an
African kitchen to see how it's done.
But I couldn't really get anyone to come back and say, yes, we'll have you.
So, um, which is why I went there.
It made sense to me and it still makes sense to me because, um.
I needed to kind of polish on, I was making mayo, I didn't know the
science behind it, for example.
I was doing things that I didn't really know the science behind, or
if they go wrong, how you correct it.
Um, and the reasoning for that.
I had a knife skills, you know, of cutting potato leaf with my
hand and doing it perfectly in a traditional Sierra Leonean way.
But, um, I didn't have a European knife skills that was for chef, um, you know.
So, it was good.
So I went there and pick up those skills and just blend it
in with what I knew already.
There also, I realized that there was a massive space for what I do.
Yeah.
Because, um, there were lots of times where I really wanted to have
a conversation with tutors about my food and what I know as food.
It was easy for them to have conversation with the Italian, the
Spanish and that, but not as easy for them to interact with me with food.
That was very much.
My culture, my food, food that will, just like a baby would know, for example.
So, that was a little bit frustrating, I'm not going to lie, because um,
Um, you're in a space where you're meant to be learning about food.
So of course, you want everybody involved in that space to know a bit more about
people coming from different angles.
Yeah.
But there was that shortcomings, which, which I've spoken to them about, um,
and that, there was that, which was missing, but it still didn't take
away the fact that I learnt a lot.
Yeah, of course.
And um, I learnt a lot and I learnt that.
Also, there's room for what I do, there's space for what I do, and I think it's
very, very important that I am in this space, because people need to know
that there are other people across.
the barrier of food, this food chain or hierarchy that's been done.
There are other people on the other side of that, and their
voices need to be heard too.
Absolutely.
And, um, so, yeah, it just made me want to push even further.
Yeah, it's interesting you use the example of the sort of European knife skills
versus your knife skills, because I think there can be a tendency, um, in, in the
UK certainly, and then I think in sort of Europe more widely, that there is...
The, the kind of like fine dining experience is one thing, and it involves
one set of skills, one set of an outlook on food, an approach to ingredients,
and I think it's so exciting to have people like you coming in and saying
like, actually, no, this isn't the way it should be or needs to be.
Absolutely not.
Yeah, my knife skills might make you want to look away,
but it's still my knife skills.
Like, I've learned it from my mother, my grandmother, my great grandmother.
The rest of my family have been using that knife skills for generation, generation.
Like, you know, we've had a food identity and a food culture that
runs over thousands of years.
And, um, we might be eating with our hands and stuff like that, but there's
still a very strong food etiquette.
Yeah.
You know, when my husband is English, if I take him to Sierra Leone, I'm
constantly saying, you can't stick your left hand into food and eat with it.
You can't do this.
So we have our own etiquette around dining and food.
So, and to just dismiss that as not important or not part, not on the table,
I think it's frankly quite rude, actually.
Yeah, totally.
Yeah.
So, it's um, about a space that accepts.
that, you know, everyone's food is equally important.
You might not know about my food culture and my food history and
that, but doesn't dismiss it.
Yeah.
You know, and me being, to be honest, I feel like, you know, me
or us, um, wanting to learn about other people's cultural skill.
It makes us, I don't know.
The bigger people, if you like, because, um, I'm, I'm taking an interest in
learning and I'm hoping that, you know, other chefs who have had those similar
trainings that I've had want to learn a bit more about my cuisine and not just
jump on, because it's not a food trend, not just jump on it, but also like have
There's curiosity enough to learn about it, to learn about the ingredients,
to know what those cultural references mean to us and why we're doing A, B, C,
and Z, because that's what I'm doing, you know, I'm not just stepping into
this food world and saying I'm gonna, I don't want to do French cuisine, so I
didn't have any reason to go and learn about French classics, but I thought
it was important in my journey to learn about that if I'm going to be doing
mixing flavors and mixing techniques.
Yeah, that makes sense.
It makes sense.
Yeah.
I mean, it's almost kind of a shame in a way that we feel like that's
the kind of pinnacle of, like, chef culture, but I guess that's maybe
an argument for a different time.
So, I mean, I have to be honest, I think reading the book, really
revealed to me my own lack of knowledge about Sierra Leonean food.
It's not a food I know anything about, really, and...
It's new, so...
Well, I mean, it's not new.
Well,
yeah, so...
It's new for me.
But I, was that a lot of pressure for you writing the book?
Because it feels like I kind of had a look and it didn't really
feel like there have been...
No.
many, if any...
There's not.
Right, yeah, that's what I thought.
So this is the first...
Sierra Leonean book published by an international publisher.
Wow.
So there was lots of pressure.
Yeah.
Because you're almost like setting the standards for what, and you're
hoping somebody beats it all the time.
I'm hoping somebody does something that's even more amazing.
But you want to do so much justice.
So there's lots of pressure and lots of research that goes into it.
And we don't have a culture of people writing recipes down.
Right, I was going to ask you have to earn it in African culture.
You really have to earn it for your mum to reveal what goes into that sauce.
She feels like you need to be in the kitchen, burn your
hand a little bit, um, a lot.
Maybe have a few slices on your arm and really earn your rights to those recipes.
And then once you've earned those rights and you can say, I can cook,
you know, it's, it's just that culture.
And why not?
You know, it's, it's so important to us because quite a lot of
time our food is so tied to.
Heritage and stuff like that.
So, of course, so they feel like you need to earn that.
So it's difficult navigating, because even asking, like asking my mum, she'll tell
me the ingredients of some of the stuff.
I'm like, so why do you put this in this?
Oh, you should know all of this.
And she gets quite frustrated about it too.
And it's just like, she just feel like, why are you asking?
Are you an idiot?
You should know,
you know, you're a grown woman.
Why are you, I'm like, I'm doing a book.
I read to, I need to make sure it's accurate and stuff like that.
She's the person that you need to ask because the information doesn't exist.
You know, there's no Googling.
Exactly.
There's no Googling.
Yeah.
So there's lots of that.
So there's lots of research, lots of navigating, lots of um, Also trusting
your own instincts with some of the stuff and reasoning behind it, you know,
there's a reason why they do everything So the reasoning it and it's through
this process as well that you learn you learn to appreciate your own culture
as well and the depth of flavor and how we get depth of flavor from our food
and You know how important ingredients is because you grew up in a culture
where people just think what you're eating It's basically a baseline food.
There's no integrity behind it.
There's no culture behind it.
And then, you know, you don't believe it, of course, but then
it does take its toll sometimes.
And then you start digging into your own food, into your own
culture, and then you realize.
Wow.
You know, my ancestors were genius, geniuses because, um, there's a
lot of thought, lots of effort that gone into everything that they've
been doing and why they put A and B together and why it works so well.
Why is it that when you put uguri and palm oil together and it's boiling and you
can be anywhere, it just takes you home.
You know, it's such an amazing thing to realize all of a sudden, but writing
this cookbook really, really made me.
And, um, made me feel extremely proud.
I've always been proud of being Sierra Leonean and an African, but it's,
um, it's, it really just take you one step into, you know, closer to
the people who had come before you.
Yeah.
I know.
Yeah.
I know exactly what you mean.
I think it's almost like, it feels so incredible to think that
somebody made that discovery.
So I think you mentioned, is it ogiri?
Yeah.
And that's fermented sesame, right?
And just, you know, who, who did that?
Yeah, exactly, exactly, you know?
And cassava leaf, you know, cassava leaf.
And there, there are also like things that if you eat it raw, it will kill you.
Who had thought, you know?
Who paid the price?
You know, how many people paid the price to say don't eat it in large numbers?
If you eat it in large numbers, you'll get, so a smaller number is fine,
you'll have probably stomach cramps.
But if you eat it in large numbers, probably, yeah, yeah, don't sit there
and put a big bowl of raw cassava leaf and eat it, it tastes horrible anyway.
But, that's the first time, who thought of that?
Talking about ingredients.
Was that something sort of that you had to try quite hard to navigate
writing a book that is about Sierra Leonean food in the UK?
Was, was there a balance between like wanting to make sure people use the right
ingredients and being aware there's not always in, you know, particularly in
places outside of major cities, it's not always the easiest to get hold of?
I think, which is why, um, I've just tried very, very hard.
So with the traditional stuff, I've tried really hard to stay Stick to
it as original as it can be without compromising it because I feel
like if you need to taste cerulean, you really want to taste cerulean.
I don't want to compromise that.
And I just feel like we're in a world where you can find
things online quite easily.
So if you do a bit of research, you will find it, but I've
also made quite a huge effort.
to have a repository on my website so people have access to information where
they can get these ingredients, the strange ingredients that they cannot find.
Um, they can find it.
And also, you know, without being rude, I'm just like, well, I love.
Japanese food.
My daughter is hugely into Asian food.
When we want to cook those Asian foods, we sit on the internet and
we research it and we find where we can get the ingredients online.
Yeah.
And we find it and we get it and we cook from it.
Yeah.
So there's no excuse.
There's no excuse.
So the people that really, really want to.
They will find it.
The people that don't want to dig that deep, they are there for
fusion stuff that they can start with, the street food, you know.
Saint Sprays, I just realized, have been selling.
I went there, yes, it was two days ago.
I bought cassava, I bought plantain, I bought red palm oil, I bought the cocoyam.
So, supermarkets are stocking up.
Yeah.
And the more books and the more people that realize that they can get.
You can cook quite a lot of these ingredients from just
things from the supermarkets.
Yeah, and I think that's, it's nice to kind of give people the
encouragement to look for it.
Yeah.
You know, I think the note about, you know, if you do go to, in the book
about, if you do go into an African grocery store, like, make an effort
to talk to people and ask them because they will be happy to help you.
Oh, they will be.
They'll be really, really happy to help because they want
people to walk into their shop.
Of course.
They want people to be interested in their food.
food.
They want people to ask them questions about their food because,
um, you know, it helps sell their goods, you know, and it helps.
It's a nice feeling to know that you're in the UK where you're in a
minority, but there's somebody who is also interested in what you're eating
and not just the other way around.
Exactly.
You know, so.
Exactly.
Yeah.
So, are there any recipes in the book that are particularly meaningful for you?
Would you like to talk me through?
You can pick a few
if it's easier.
Yes.
That's a tough one.
It's the worst question
I know.
It is.
Yeah.
So, I will start with cassava leaf first.
Okay.
Great.
And I think just because that one.
Oh, wow.
It's our national dish.
Okay.
So, cassava leaf is like our national dish and it's just.
So special to us, um, Sierra Leoneans.
And I have here also, um, the fish, fish bowl stew.
And this one is specially, you know, important because the days where
my mom will be like, Oh, you know, I don't have enough money today.
So we're just going to cook simple.
That's when we'll usually cook this, the sauce.
And she thought it was something that.
just, Oh, I don't have money.
I'm broke.
But it was actually like our favorites.
Like it was like my favorite thing, the fishbowl stew that she did, like
lots of efforts and stuff goes into it.
But it's just such a, you know, such a delicious stuff.
And for me, it just also just shows.
the magic and the resilience of Sierra Leonean women.
Yeah.
And how, you know, you don't need lots and lots of, um, expensive
ingredients to make an amazing dish.
And, um, and also how we, we really, we're not wasteful.
We use everything.
Yeah.
So we're not, we're not wasteful at all.
So yeah, so fishbowl stew.
And then, you know, the Afrofusion thing, you'll be hard to choose because,
um, the Afrofusion part for me is where I feel like innovation and this
excitement about taking an ingredient.
So, Sereleinians and non Sierra Sierra can both have the joy of discovering.
You know, it's like, you know, so Sierra Sierra know the traditional
bit, but the Afrofusion bit, there's things that they don't know.
They just know plantain.
Yeah.
So, turning plantain into a hand pie and putting feta into it.
That's exciting.
And that always gets exciting.
Cassava, doing the croquette with it and adding things like
pancetta and manchego cheese to it.
It's exciting.
Adding leeks exciting for me.
Yeah.
It's exciting for them.
So it's a new discovery.
So it's that thing where non Sierra Leoneans are like.
Thinking, oh, croquet, I know what croquet is.
But eating it with cassava in it and discovering new ingredients
and new stature food that can be used to make those things.
But also Sierra Leoneans is very much aware of cassava
and know what taste it is.
Yeah.
And knowing what panchetta is as well and putting those together and, and that so.
That's exciting.
So it's almost like it's a mutual discovery for both sides.
Um, that's a really, I've never quite thought of fusion like that
before because I think sometimes, I mean there's a lot of bad fusion.
I know.
Let's be honest.
But actually that's a really beautiful way of putting it and I've
never thought about it from that perspective and it makes so much sense.
Yeah.
Like I love that.
Yeah, it's like this one, for example, this, this is um, So this is the mackerel?
Mackerel.
So beautiful.
So the sauce there is hibiscus.
Oh wow.
Yeah, so hibiscus petals in Sierra Leone, we have two different hibiscus, like
we have the white ones and the red one.
Okay.
The white one we use like in sauces, uh, savoury dishes.
The red one we use mainly for drinks because, you know, we don't have
a dessert culture necessarily.
Yeah, I was very interested by that.
Yeah.
When you eat, you eat fresh fruits.
That's your lot.
Yeah.
So we make drinks for this, but creating this dish where we do cure fish, we do
smoke fish, but we don't necessarily smoke fish or cure it to eat like that.
We usually cure it with salt to you would say.
But it's taking very traditional elements and sometimes even traditional
cooking methods and curing and doing it like this where it looks European.
Yeah.
And um, so it's both a new discovery for Sierra Leoneans and non Sierra
Leoneans because, Absolutely.
You know, it's um, Sierra Leoneans aren't used to eating hibiscus in this way.
Yeah.
And it's the same way like Europeans don't know probably what.
that you can eat hibiscus like that.
A lot of people are familiar with hibiscus tea.
Yeah, and that's it.
And that's it,
yeah.
I loved what you said about getting off the train at Peckham Rye and
hearing Krio spoken because I wanted to ask you about language.
So you speak three languages, English, Krio, and is it Mende?
Mende, yeah.
How was it?
Writing the book in one of those languages, especially because you're
saying that Sierra Leone Sierra Leone doesn't have a necessarily
like a huge written recipe culture.
So there's almost like a double translation, you're maybe translating
from Krio or Mende, but then also translating from non written to written.
Did it feel like that?
Well, we have like about 18 different languages.
Right.
We also, like all my, like.
It's, it's terrible that I went to, it's actually terrible that I went
to school in Sierra Leone, did all my formative years in Sierra Leone
but all my education was in English.
Right, okay, okay.
So, it was only when I left actually, I think it was A couple of years
after I left, I'd introduced learning traditional languages at school.
That's such a shame.
Which is such a shame.
And, um, so all my language and, uh, and people widely speak, um, Krio as well.
But in some of, like, the really traditional recipes, the names and that.
Yeah.
Trying to translate that name, um, which is mainly in Mende because my mother's.
So she will call it that particular name, but you might speak to somebody
else in a different region that calls it completely different.
But yeah, my only saving grace is when it comes to those leafy things.
And so Lillian's can chase me about that later.
Like those leafy greens, like my mother's tribe is like the best at it.
Right, so you've got the authority.
So I've got the authority.
So when it comes to like how it's cooked, um, like, you know, we're
the best at cooking those leafy greens and that, like the cassava
leaf, the potato leaves and that.
You want to eat it from somebody who is Mende.
Okay, okay.
So yeah, you can call it what you like.
Yeah.
But we've got names for it, and I've tried to put some of the names, um, in there,
like, but I've put more like the Krio names, which is cassava, we call cassada.
Okay, okay.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
So that's, that's the creoname.
Yeah.
And, um, jute leaves, like, my husband usually jokes like
we like to double things.
Because um, jute leaves we call crin crin.
Yeah.
That's nice.
Like, I don't know why we've pluraled it.
Yeah?
Why not?
Because usually with plural you use like the double thing, like
sand, we call it sand sand.
Oh,
okay.
So instead of adding an S, you might do, yeah, no, I
really like that.
That's great.
San San?
Yeah, it's San San.
Yeah, great.
Makes sense to me.
It's more than
one.
Yeah, um.
Walking we say waka waka.
Oh, yeah.
I love it.
Yeah, why just give you one?
Give you a double.
You say in the book that you found it really hard to write.
Yeah.
Was that just because you found it difficult to write about yourself or
was it the actual process of writing?
That is the actual process of writing.
Yeah, I mean it's hard.
It is very hard because for me I feel like writing involves like really
almost like forgetting everything that's happening outside and sitting
down and focusing on that one.
thing that you're doing.
Yeah.
And my brain doesn't necessarily work like that.
Yeah.
Okay.
You know, I want to be, I'm more excited because I'll be lying in
bed and I'm thinking about recipes.
I've tasted something somewhere and I'm thinking, Ooh, I can
put this and this together.
I wake up in the morning and I'm thinking I need to go to the supermarket.
So I need to call Becky who supplies vegetable and say,
can I have this, this and this?
And I want to be in the kitchen making notes as well as trying things out.
And sometimes we try.
One million times failed, but I like that process because
it means I'm doing something.
And, um, I mean, I'm in that space of excitement where it's creative.
Um, and that writing is so different.
It's, it's just like, and it's not something that I've done before.
The last time I wrote anything like this was a dissertation.
Wow.
So really in at the deep end with writing a book.
Exactly.
So I do write with Instagram and that, but it's always like fun stuff
and there's no structure to it.
And I think it's more like the structure parts of this as well, because you
can't just Right, right, right, right.
You know, you send it to Sarah and she's like, maybe, maybe we
should talk about it this way.
Okay.
And was that you?
Oh God, yeah.
It is.
Like I had like amazing, two amazing people working with me.
I had Sarah and I had Susan as well.
And they're both like, very detailed, um, individuals which work for me because I
really like to know and planning as well.
You know, I like to know, I plan everything.
I like to know what I'm doing today, tomorrow, and so on and so forth and that.
And I prefer talking to people rather than sitting down and
emailing or writing to them.
So that part I found really hard because once they've read over
your stuff, they have to send it back all in massive writing thing.
And then you have to read it, read it and sit down where I just want to pick
the phone and just say, let's talk about this and why I'm not changing it.
And why I'm keeping that.
And now you have to document everything.
So those processes, I just.
Like, it's just not, it's hard to navigate and that, but I just
felt it was really important.
It's a new skills that I never thought I had as well, you know, um, cause I
wouldn't have called myself a writer at all, you know, and even now, like, it's
hard to think of myself as an author.
I'm a chancer who writes books.
Quote.
Yeah.
And you know, obviously they weren't published.
See other Sierra Leonian author you could turn to for kind of inspiration book.
Exactly.
Were there any other books that you read, like either that came out recently
or that came out a long time ago that inspired you or kind of helped
you see what this book might be?
Yeah, so there are Sierra Leonians who have done like
self self-publishing things.
Okay.
Where they've done like cookery books.
Oh great.
Um, where.
I've bought, I've gone on Amazon and had a look at their work
and seen what they've done.
But these are like really, really, I remember I was speaking to my mom and
she was like, Oh, it's so and so, she went to YWCA and she wrote a book.
So it's looking at those and the things that, not necessarily the stories,
but the recipes that they've written.
And, um, some, some of it I look at and I go, okay, some of it I don't necessarily.
Necessarily agree with.
Yeah.
And, and that some of it makes sense.
Some of it didn't make sense to me at all, and some of it's a completely
different style of cooking as well from what I grew up with, so, yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Of course.
Yeah.
So, but I would say quite a lot of the reference in terms of recipes
for the traditional, I think it all came from my mom and my grandmother
because, um, they're the best.
at doing those dishes that I know.
In terms of, um, recipe book, I'm a massive fan of, um, Rick Stein.
Really?
Okay.
And I like books that dig into culture and not just talking about food.
I like books that want to.
know a bit background about the people and the food that they eat and give you
a context so but I didn't really focus focus on on books because I had a really
very clear idea also like I really wanted to make it Not just about the food and I
really wanted to focus heavily on Sierra Leone And I said because there's not
really that it's quite hard like it's almost like you're starting from zero Yeah
Yeah, completely and because at the heart of it is the trip that you made.
Yeah, absolutely Yeah, massive massive massive and I have a very
clear idea about photos as well that I wanted and stuff like that.
So, and the good news is I had Kodjo who kind of gave me a lot
of control in places like that.
Sometimes I just find, you know, when it comes to cookbook, it's quite similar.
Yeah.
There's a lot of similarities, not necessarily in a bad way, but I
also know that this is a new cuisine that people don't know about.
And, um, it was very important for me that the style of the photo represents me.
Yeah.
And, um, and the style of the photo is very simple.
Yeah.
And it focuses a lot on the food.
I wanted all the focus, like, minimalistic props.
Yeah, okay, yeah.
And, um, you know, Claire understood that very, very much from the minute
that I said it, you know, what, and she's like, yeah, I get it.
That's what we're going to go for.
Go find your photographer that is very much like that.
And Yuki just is, she's just an amazing photographer.
So she was able to really capture what I wanted, um, in the, in the book as well.
I knew I wanted to focus on Sierra Leoneans.
But after that trip, it really, I was very 100% sure that I'd gone down
the right route of just making it about the everyday Sierra Leonean.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And people that people wouldn't necessarily write about usually.
Yes.
Or people that usually...
Yeah, absolutely.
People won't capture usually, I wanted to capture that because for me I feel
like they're the real magic of Sierra Leone and it's the people that will
welcome you into their home and their space with a massive grin on their
face not expecting anything but just being super super friendly and want
to feed you till you're Stomach first.
Really.
So the best kind of welcome, the the best kind of welcome.
Exactly.
So it was very important for me to showcase that
Lecker is hosted and produced by me.
Lucy Dearlove, thanks to my guest on this episode, Maria Bradford.
Her book's Sweet Salone is out now published by Quadrille.
As part of the new monthly Lekker book club, I'll be writing about the book
over on the Lecker sub stack and Patreon.
Have you got a copy?
Are you reading it?
Have you been cooking from it too?
Come and chat about your favourite recipes in the comments over
there or tag me on Instagram when you post your finished dishes.
I'd love to see them.
I'm really excited to cook from it myself.
And just one more reminder before the end of the show, you can sign
up as a paid subscriber to support Lecker on Apple Podcasts and
Patreon and also now on sub stack.
Links are in the show notes.
Your support is really helpful in keeping the podcast going.
And to any paid subscribers who are listening here, thank you so
much for your continued support.
It means the world.
Music in this episode is by Blue Dot Sessions.
Lecker Book Club will be back in August with another delicious
read for your kitchen bookshelves.
Thanks for listening.