00:00.10 honestconman Now recording and I'm not going to change anything. Um, yeah, unfortunately when you start in your recording it just resets the whole process which means often the sound gets old. Um, yeah that that happens great. Okay brilliant. So we're just ah yeah I will talk about.

00:01.82 Chris Okay.

00:05.72 Dan Yeah.

00:12.15 Dan Um, yeah.

00:19.77 honestconman The book and I'm happy to I find the the conversation is is always best when we talk about things we're passionate about and interested in. So if there's any particular part of the book or of your research that you want to mention or talk about even if I don't bring it up. Please do because it just ah makes it much more.

00:29.18 Dan What if.

00:38.64 Dan Yeah, definitely yeah.

00:39.47 honestconman Yeah, much more enjoyable as there's so much to talk about I feel like I'm talking to celebrities because ah because I spent a lot of time talking about your work and people will mention the Gorilla video to me all the time. It is like a.

00:56.00 Dan Yeah.

00:58.70 honestconman Barely a week goes past when the famous Guerrilla video doesn't get mentioned to me is that a big is that still a big part of your your lives is that something that constantly comes up.

01:09.80 Dan Um, it's because it went viral and had a life of its own. Yeah, we still get emails about it and we still get sort of ah we still get interest in our last book which was named after the video so that that I think kind of perpetuates it a little bit. Yeah, we still.

01:28.11 honestconman Yeah.

01:28.37 Dan Still hear about it a lot I can't I can't use it in teaching anymore because too many people know about it and especially in my own classes. But yeah.

01:37.99 honestconman It's also odd in the sense that the moment you talk about it. You do ruin the video if you say to someone have you seen the Gorilla video and they say no, you can't then go and show them the gurilla video it doesn't go Well I'll check this out This is going to blow your mind and then.

01:45.93 Dan Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:55.31 Dan Yeah.

01:55.49 honestconman Kind of probably spot the gorilla ah fair enough. So this is a fantastic book I really enjoyed the fact that you weren't just exploring the research but also exploring the practical applications. Of the research on on our everyday lives and most importantly, ah provided practical things. People can do to prevent themselves being deceived scammed and and taken for a ride. Um often I find these types of books are very very interesting. But. Leave you a little disheartened at the end because you're not sure what you're supposed to do about it. It feels like the the the the the crux of the books comes down to the the truth bias could you explain the truth bias.

02:42.57 Chris Sure so the idea of truth bias is that ah sort of no matter no matter what the circumstances are by default. We assume that whatever people tell us or whatever we see or whatever we hear is true and. We don't just keep it neutral sort of we have this default that it's true and then we need to take extra effort or time or some additional step in order to relabel something as false or unknown or uncertain or anything any value other than than true. Um, and that means sort of. Truth has a little bit of an advantage because you well I should say you know being called truth has an advantage because that can happen in the absence of a lot of extra processing. But what that means in fact, is sort of that. Um, that lies in deceit have an advantage because if they get in when you don't have time or energy or ability. Um, you know to pause and check and and relabel them as false or unknown then you might leave them in there as true and so the truth bias is in some ways I think the fundamental ah fact about how we process information that all kinds of deceptions and scams. Exploit. There's a lot that builds upon it, you can't just rely on that. Um, but it's sort of a fundamental part of all of it and 1 point we make in the book is that although this may seem like a horrible thing to have in our brains and in our minds. Um, you probably couldn't really do without it.

04:14.38 Chris Um, because for 1 thing most of what you do encounter is true or at least there's no reason to think it's false or to to relabel it as false and for another thing checking all that would just be an endless you know, compulsive process that would never get you anywhere. You couldn't really have a conversation with anyone if you had to stop and analyze every. Phrase they uttered to make sure it was true and and so on before you went on to the next thing so it's it's really it really has a lot of benefits for us, but it can also be exploited by people who are trying to do something. We don't want them to do.

04:49.94 Dan Just add. There are very few contexts in which we we question it by default right? So one of them might be. You are going to a magic show and you know the person's going to lie to you right? because that's the whole setup. Um, and the other is somebody who you fundamentally disagree with and. You're going to look for reasons to distrust them. But even there right even in a magic Performance. You're probably not going to doubt the things that are actually really important if you're and a good Magician is going to set that up right? So you're going to accept as true when they say I you know I didn't touch the cards like well you know.

05:13.29 honestconman Um, yeah.

05:19.50 honestconman Yeah, absolutely and I've I've you've obviously worked as a magician and when when you do every now and again, you do get someone who decides they're going to distrust everything you do and say in every.

05:22.30 Dan They're going to believe you because why would they question that right.

05:38.33 honestconman Claim you make and every implication of of your actions they will question it and they have a terrible time because it's impossible to to actually not enjoy the magic but even just engage with it in any meaningful way of if you doubt.

05:44.99 Dan The.

05:50.40 Dan Yeah.

05:56.15 honestconman Literally everything in front of you and demand empirical truth at every step of the way and that.

05:58.86 Dan Yeah, well and those yeah that you're if you're that skeptical right? I mean that's often probably going to be the easiest audience to fool right? because you're going to be able to get them to lock onto the 1 thing that you want them to lock on to and they're just going to hold it thinking. They've got you right? Then they're lost. So yeah.

06:14.62 honestconman Yeah, so if then we we have a problem of we. Okay, we we obviously we can't trust everything all the time and we have this truth bias that kind of leads us that way but then at the same time we can't assume that we we kind of you know, not necessarily assume that everything is false. But.

06:17.88 Dan Yeah I know.

06:34.52 honestconman We can't question everything because as you said it's time consuming and and counterproductive What then do we do like what? how do we? What is what? Ah what is the way in which we can decrease our chances of being deceived.

06:50.60 Chris Well I would say first read the book. Um, and then second ah, really, you know we yeah try. ah ah well but in a way I'm I'm joking but I'm also not joking and that what we try to do in the book is really.

06:52.28 Dan I.

06:56.50 honestconman Um, available in all good book stores.

07:07.51 Chris Go through a large number of different kinds of scams deceptions. Cons Misinformation sort of the whole range from sort of relatively innocuous things all the way up to you know Identity theft and stealing all your money and and everything in between ah and.

07:26.34 Chris Talk about them with a framework of what kinds of different um mental habits and patterns of thinking we have that the perpetrators of these scams are exploiting and the more you think about. Um, cons and scams in a framework that lets you actually sort of recognize what their basic elements are the easier. It will be to sort of see them in the you know to to see them in the future. There's a huge amount of entertainment out right Now. You know so movie after movies series after Series podcast after podcast going into deep deep detail on lots of different gams and cons but not really breaking them down in a way that explains why they work. That's what our book is about why they work What is it about our minds that make them work and the more you consume of that like maybe a book's worth of it. Um, you know we hope the better you will the better you will be at recognizing those patterns in the real world when you might encounter them in in your own life.

08:23.40 honestconman Yeah, it reminds me of the gi Joe fallacy you know the the idea that like knowing isn't half the battle that just just having the knowledge of the scams and how they work won't necessarily protect you because um I mean I have. Literally there's a library in front of me right now of books filled with scams and all the con artists need to do is change the scam slightly and people won't recognize it and it will be a completely new new scam it it. It.

08:49.27 Dan Yeah, yeah, and that what's interesting is it's like it's completely new in the sense that people don't recognize it as the same thing right? but um and this happens in like in perception and attention work and in sort of the change blindness the cases where we have people fail to notice a change.

08:55.29 honestconman E.

09:05.94 Dan You can change one actor into another actor from one moment to the next and people don't notice it but people are convinced that they will and you can tell them about 1 kind of change like that and then just walk them up and do another one and they won't notice it because as long as it doesn't have this exactly the same features. They don't realize it's the same thing and that's that's one of our goals right is to highlight. How these aren't really all that new right? All of these scams kind of rely on the same principles. Even if they use different sort of implementation.

09:33.45 honestconman Yeah, so it sounds then like we're not just talking about ah reading the book to obtain knowledge of how of how the scams work and the psychology behind the scams but where.

09:39.52 Dan Yes.

09:47.80 honestconman Taking that knowledge and then figuring out how to actually apply that information much like you know I could buy a book on and how to lose Weight. Um, and it's not going to actually help me unless I actually figure out how to implement. Recommendations and strategies that are in that book and actually make them into Habits. It was interesting. I was really interested in the way in which you talked about habits as as being important and and mental habits because it's something that we don't often think about when we think about deception I think because we see deception as the um.

10:24.80 honestconman As the exception to the rule rather than the rule. You know we're getting deceived all the time. Ah what is the role that habits play in in how we are deceived.

10:34.58 Dan Well I mean I think we we split the book into 2 parts one was habits which is kind of modes of thought or ways of going about what we're doing and the other is hooks which is kind of the information that we find really appealing and are drawn to and the habits are really our our tendencies to think about information in a way that. Most of the time works. Absolutely great. Most of the time we want to focus on the information we have right in front of us. So it makes sense to think about what we've got right in front of us. The downside of that is we don't think about what we don't have in front of us. It makes sense to base our predictions on our experiences and to kind of look for the things that are consistent. And most of the time that works great. Um, the problem comes when somebody's trying to deceive us they of course give you exactly what you're expecting what you want so we don't tend to think that that might be a problem. We tend to think oh that's right in front of us. That's what I'm predicting so I'm going to use that and. All all of these habits are a tendency to kind of rely on what we're committed to kind of to too strongly hold our assumptions as true or to act with efficiency to really sort of not bother to take that 1 additional step in question. All of those are tendencies that work. Really well for us to sort of get around in the world without having to constantly doubt everything. It's just that we're at risk when somebody tries to hijack them from us.

11:56.51 honestconman Um, it it Also I guess it it feels I mean let me start Again. There is that assumption that ah yes, because our instincts for one of a better word are going to let us down that we should ignore our instincts and we should focus on our. Um, but we we should focus on our reason and logic that you know classic thinking fast and slow sort of dichotomy but it sounds like what you're saying is um, what we should actually we we should be doing that logical reasonable thinking. But.

12:19.89 Dan Oh.

12:30.60 honestconman That's not necessarily the end goal. It sounds like the end goal is to actually almost retrain your instincts so that you have you automatically think about things in a way that is is more helpful and more useful as opposed to sort of stopping yourself and going through this very arduous process of reason.

12:46.20 Dan I would say slightly differently. It's it's I'm not sure that we can completely overcome sort of tendencies that we have because they work really well most of the time I think the real key is understanding when we should so when when should we stop and say oh okay, I've just been handed exactly what I wanted. Maybe I should question that especially if it matters right? It's it's that that taking that extra step not just accepting it as truth but taking that extra step and saying might this be false might this be a lie and knowing when to do that and when not to recognizing when you are are using these sort of shortcuts.

13:22.17 honestconman So the question is then when when do we do that when when you know when am I can I should I be trusting you right now or should I be accepting that your your credentials are enough to to trust you? What are that? What are the situations in which we should be.

13:24.59 Chris Ah.

13:25.11 Dan I know.

13:39.19 Dan Are.

13:41.93 honestconman Starting to question things.

13:44.71 Chris Well I think there are no easy rules that answer that question but um I mean we are on a video call right now. Although I guess this is only going to be released as audio but we are on a video call and you know video evidence is pretty impressive to most people you probably saw us here and you said this look these look like they're right guys.

14:00.27 Dan Who.

14:01.34 Chris Right? Like I've seen pictures of them before like they you know? Yeah, we've we've got. We've got various signs of credibility like we look like smart guys researchers. You know we look like the guys whose pictures came with ah you know the publicity materials. But but there are plenty of scams right? where.

14:02.63 honestconman Ah, you've got a lot of books behind you that tells me that I can trust you.

14:18.33 Chris People have tried to supply exactly that I mean one that we talk about a little bit in the book. Um is ah you know one where people impersonated the the defense minister of France um, and went so far as to arrange Skype calls.

14:30.39 honestconman Um.

14:33.68 Chris Ah, with a camera you know, pointed at this guy who was wearing a very elaborate prosthetic mask that had been apparently like purchased from experts from you know the entertainment industry or something like that. It wasn't just some gag thing you buy in the store. Well probably you don't buy the french defense minister like at the Halloween costume store right? but. They had created a custom mask and they had this sort of setup behind them and they went to great lengths to really you know to really deceive people nonetheless in in one of those video calls that ah ah, ah, and the way this scam worked was they would basically call wealthy business people or um, other wealthy people in Europe and. Especially french people and try to get them to donate money allegedly to support rescuing french hostages who were being held like in Syria by Isis or something like that. But the sending the money would require wiring it to some bank account where it never went anywhere near the the french government and so on it was a total.

15:19.52 honestconman We.

15:31.96 Chris Scam and um, ah you know, ah 1 of the people who was you know on the verge of maybe sending like fifty Thousand Euros in or something like that a friend of his came in to the room and saw what was going on and immediately thought it was thought it was a scam. So. Although you and he hadn't really been on the whole call and so on he just looked at it and said this doesn't look right? You know so part part of I think what we're trying to to get readers to do in the book is start to develop that that intuition for you know when things don't look right and one of the ways you can do that is by thinking about our suggestions of. Ah, questions to ask you know like what? Ah, for example, what's missing what am I assuming that maybe I shouldn't be assuming all of these things we go through a lot of them in the book as you mentioned practical advice but they're really sort of things you can you know think about and start to get ah you know start to get a sense for um. You know when you're in a bad neighborhood when you've gone off the route or something like that. It's not easy. Um, ah I don't think we can pretend that you know there's there's 5 easy rules you know and these will this will make you scam-proof or something like that. But I think um, over time you will become. Um. You know, less deceivable in that way.

16:43.66 Dan Just amplify 1 thing that you know when when somebody's calling you up and asking for fifty Thousand Euros or a million Euros you probably want to question that if somebody's trying to sell you fine art. They might go to a huge amount of effort to fake it.

16:53.93 Chris Are.

17:00.29 Dan Right? because selling that 1 painting to them is going to be worth a lot even if it's exactly what you wanted. You should be really rigorous about how you checked about it for us to fake being on your show. There's really not a whole lot of financial stake involved there. So it's probably not worth the effort to check. Um.

17:13.91 honestconman Um, here. Yeah.

17:19.92 Dan I mean and unless unless it would have ramifications for reputation or something like that. But you you wouldn't generally want to bother. So I think that's part of it as well is figuring out when when does it actually matter when am I likely to be at risk and when does it not and there are going to be huge individual differences in that some people really are going to set a very low threshold.

17:30.14 honestconman E.

17:39.33 Dan I Just don't want to lose out I don't want to be fooled and other people are going to be much more tolerant of it and not worry as much and that's fine right? That's that's why there's no one rule that will just fix it for everybody but kind of calibrating yourself and knowing when you should be checking for your own sort of personal edification.

17:57.20 honestconman Yeah, the um it it reminds me of the the infosecc there and and people involved in Cyber Security is that their goal is never to say that all computers and all systems should be completely unhackable because that's impossible.

17:57.57 Dan Is is kind of the key.

18:15.72 honestconman But instead to essentially make it so that it's not worth the.. It's not worth the effort to break into your computer. You know if they if they need to spend a huge amount of effort to break into your laptop to get your family photographs then then you know they're not going to Bother. Um. And so it's I Guess it's a matter of sort of saying what is as you said like what is at risk and and therefore what um how many of these strategies am I going to put into place just just quickly though like if if it turned out you guys were like I don't know deep fakes and you were scamming me to like I. Yeah, it would definitely affect my reputation but I feel like it would be a great publicity move for me like if I got you know I mean the the con the on man yeah would be i' be amazing. Absolutely yeah, you should. You should like let's do this. Let's let's get a rubber mask and let's let's make it happen.

18:58.46 Chris Ah, great for us too. Ah.

18:59.89 Dan Um, yeah, yeah.

19:05.79 Chris Ah, ah, ah well I've got news for you which is we're not yeah, we're not christopher shery and Dan Simons after all. Ah yes, exactly.

19:06.58 Dan And.

19:11.54 honestconman Ah, speaking of the rabbi mask I remember here I pull up the mask and it's it's Tom Cruise yeah mission impossible stuff. Yeah I remember when the the luxuryrian um story hit a couple of years ago and

19:23.60 Dan Um.

19:30.70 honestconman Look and go and reading the story and go Wow What an amazing mask and then looking at the picture of the prosthetic mask and it is a blurry photograph but it's it's unconvincing to me particularly side by side with a photograph of the real guy it it Not only.

19:40.26 Dan Me.

19:47.71 honestconman Doesn't look like him but it looks very artificial but that's me that's me coming in as someone who knows it's a mask.

19:50.60 Dan Yeah I think part of it was yes yeah.

19:51.79 Chris I think there's a good. Yeah there. Yeah, but if but if you're not but if you don't know you're being scammed right and you see someone who looks kind of like the guy you think you've been talking to all this time. That's satisfying your expectations like the guy who came on didn't look completely different. And I believe they had set up the camera so he was sitting a little bit far away and so on right? So they had some excuses for sort of the the poor mass quality. Well it's like ah the the call has low bandwidth or he's a little far away from the camera or whatever right? But it's enough information to satisfy your expectations right? and 1 of the questions we advise.

20:11.48 honestconman Um, yeah.

20:27.31 Chris Asking is that I predict this right? Well, that's exactly what you predicted you predict that there would be some guy who looks like Ladrerian you know, talking on the other end of the Skype call. They didn't do video Skype calls all the time. But I think at some critical times right? They introduced that element in order to keep on pushing. You know the whole thing forward with particular with particular victims and. And relied on the idea of expectations that we talk about and um in the first part of the book.

20:47.79 Dan Yeah, when there's also there's also the case that you know people's photographs. Don't often look like them and if you if you go to any academic website you can be guaranteed that the photos of the professor is on that website are at least 10 years out of date.

20:57.29 Chris So.

21:03.41 Dan Often much more I mean you see people who look like they're 40 and they're actually 70 and yeah, yeah.

21:08.99 honestconman Yeah, and also they've I mean like i'm'm yeah me in my publicity photographs versus me, you know, hit first thing in the in the morning here in Australia like yeah like a very different look. Ah.

21:09.64 Chris Ah, it's like ah.

21:21.24 Dan Yes, yeah.

21:25.39 honestconman I Look a lot rougher this morning than I do and my very slick pros is so perfect excuse me my very slick publicity photos.

21:29.74 Dan But Ah yeah I think that's that's exactly the key right is that you you go in sort of expecting things. But if if it's if it's set up and any performer who is kind of deceiving people knows this too right? As long as you set it up plausibly then. If people don't have a reason to question that or even if they do somewhat question it they're still going to be thinking. Oh okay, this is you know here's this person presenting themselves as this famous person and they kind of look like them and they how would they fake a video if they weren't a fake me out. Why would they hear on video. It just makes it that much more plausible. Um, so.

21:53.20 honestconman A.

22:01.15 honestconman Yeah, yeah.

22:04.62 Dan They're just expecting it to be true then if they don't question it that way if they don't look at it and say wait a second you know if they were trying to bluff me out of a million Euros this is something they might try right.

22:16.86 honestconman Yeah, so it sounds then it's not just then I mean what the con artist is doing because I mean in the largerrian case they didn't just hop on Skype and say let's go hey I'm the you know I'm the guy they you know there were.

22:25.57 Dan Um, yeah, yeah.

22:34.20 honestconman Weeks months of phone calls and letters and they they spoke to other people first and had meetings and so all of that is about it's it's a little bit of the you know frog in the water I imagine of just slowly rising the temperature and the frog doesn't notice. You know that it's boiling that that old metaphor. Um.

22:37.00 Dan These.

22:44.50 Dan Me.

22:52.83 honestconman But also it it is about establishing expectations So that when you're presented with the person that they're establishing an expectation and then they're meeting that expectation and getting close enough to it that people will trust that That's what happens it's it.

23:04.40 Dan Um, me yeah.

23:10.16 Chris I Think that's part of it and also there's um, ah one of the other principles we talk about in the book is familiarity. So like over these long Cons You're sort of building up familiarity as well as expectations right? you hear the same voices. You talk about the same things you know and and. And so on I think even things like the Nigerian email scam. Um, you know the famous Nigerian email scam where you you get this. You get this wacky email with all kinds of typos you know wanting to have help recovering a fortune I think a lot of the people who have been victimized by this. It takes them a long time before they start sending money.

23:35.90 Dan Great.

23:44.44 Chris They don't send money right away right? They spend weeks or months before they actually send money and part of what's being built up. There is ah some kind of relationship some kind of familiarity with the people you're you're dealing with. Yeah.

23:53.60 Dan Yeah, same thing with romance scams. It's building up that sort of familiarity along with the desire The you know the hope.

24:01.94 honestconman Yeah, um, it and reminds me of the affinity fraud where you scam someone? Um, who looks like you or who is the member of the same group as you. Um, or is it has something something. There is something familiar about them so that they don't have to build up the familiarity because it's the the you the person you know that you just met is like you and so because of that you you have that familiarity. Um.

24:20.34 Dan Now.

24:32.70 Dan Yeah, there's an assumed comfort level that somebody who's like this who's like me wouldn't cheat me. Yeah.

24:36.86 honestconman Yes, which is even more evidence that you guys are scamming me because we're just 3 middle aged bald guys. Yeah.

24:45.53 Dan Um.

24:46.72 Chris Ah I've got my beard over there I forgot to I forgot to wear it but that I yeah if I had my beard on if I had my beard on I'd already have 10000 of your australian dollars by now.

24:51.49 Dan Um, yeah.

24:52.22 honestconman You you free. You tried the beards on and you thought it was a bit much. You felt like it was that yeah I So youre gonna have to work get up to work. Yeah I work a little harder that's right and let's let's talk about efficiency when it comes to the the way in which we.

25:01.85 Dan Um.

25:10.95 honestconman We look for information. Um, that's a to me was a new concept showing that I wasn't familiar with so that how what does the the role in ah efficiency play in how we're deceived.

25:17.40 Dan Um, if.

25:25.86 Chris Well I think efficiency is a it's sort of like a least effort principle like we want to sort of do the least that we need to do in order to achieve our goals. Um I think explains a lot of why. We make decisions with so relatively little information. Um, or at least it it describes the fact that we make many decisions with relatively little information and in fact, most decisions we can make with very little information are almost no information. Um. But some decisions we should be a lot less efficient and we should slow things down and do what we call. Ah you know, asking more questions so in in the chapter on efficiency we say is sort of the solution to efficiency is to ask the solution to our habit of efficiency and our desire to make decisions quickly is to ask more questions or even just 1 more question.

25:57.68 honestconman Are.

26:13.63 honestconman Came.

26:15.34 Chris Ah, you know sometimes it really takes just 1 more question. Um, ah and it's not that much more inefficient to ask 1 question but sometimes there's a lot of sort of social inhibition. You don't want to be. You know that guy who asks you know is this really on the up and up. Do you really have such and such. Um, one of my favorite stories which is is not in the book. But which I learned recently is that um that there's a famous cryptocurrency company called ftx which is now in bankruptcy proceedings and its executives and founders are under investigation and indictment and so on and and they had. Ah, well in their heyday. They had gotten a lot of celebrities to endorse to endorse them. Um, and there's an article about how 1 celebrity who they who didn't fall into the trap of endorsing them was Taylor Swift and the reason why is that Taylor Swift said something like before you know before signing the endorsement contract set something like. are are you guys so are you guys offering unregistered securities and once you ask a question like that you know of of ah a putative financial exchange that wants you to endorse it and so on well you know they they can lie or you can get the answer that you know is going to tell you not to be involved with this and.

27:12.66 Dan You.

27:12.71 honestconman Um, you have.

27:29.46 Chris It's kind of interesting that so many ah people and their you know advisors and so on didn't ask that question or at least didn't you know didn't process the answer and in the right way but I have a feeling didn't didn't really you know didn't really even seriously ask it sometimes just 1 more question is what happens and in the case of Bernie Madoff some you know, a lot of people didn't invest with Bernie Madoff you know we don't hear too much about them. We hear a lot about the victims. The poor people who did invest and and lost a lot of money people who didn't invest often asked just 1 or 2 questions about how his business worked and um questions that he didn't want to answer couldn't answer refused to answer and then they they managed to walk away. Um, and.

28:02.22 honestconman A.

28:05.43 Chris It's amazing. How ah I think with how limited information and how much speed sometimes we make such big decisions like you know like those.

28:14.55 Dan And there's there's another angle to this which is that a lot of times people who are trying to be honest, they're not trying to con us don't actually understand the workings of their own thing right? So and if you ask them 1 more question they can't answer because they literally don't know right? They don't really.

28:26.90 honestconman Um, and.

28:32.82 Dan Understand how it's working or how it's supposed to work so you know often they'll they'll come back with some empty response like well you know it's best practice or you know we did our due diligence What does that Even mean what have you actually done. Um, so that those sorts of empty responses are often reassuring.

28:46.52 honestconman Um, yeah.

28:52.73 Dan You know if you're not thinking critically about it but all you have to do say Okay, what was your due diligence. It's like because if they've done it. They should be able to tell you what it was and more often than not it turns out to be nothing.

28:58.12 honestconman Um, yeah.

29:03.92 honestconman I find and people who say I don't know I find that very reassuring. You know if you're talking to the doctor about what's wrong and you say ah you know could it be this or what's going on with this and the doctor says I don't know I find that ah great. Good.

29:07.87 Dan Yeah.

29:19.67 honestconman I can trust the things that you told me because you're quite happy to tell me that you don't have that information I think a lot of people when we talk about questioning they think about it as interrogating the idea of that we should you know be poking people in the chest and demanding evidence and.

29:19.92 Dan Yeah, um.

29:38.48 honestconman Trying to catch them out in a lie or to to you know to to to be aggressive like we're prosecuting them and but I heard it someone described it as ah instead of instead of being questioning. They said to sort of approach approach it with a sense of childlike curiosity like you're not trying to.. You're you're trying to remember what it was but it's essentially can you know treat treat them like they've got information and you really love to have this information because you're genuinely curious and if you can be genuinely curious about about what they're doing Firstly you' you'll you know you'll get you'll get answers and you'll understand it better but also.

30:09.94 Dan Yeah.

30:18.70 honestconman They're more likely to be forthcoming with the truth because they won't feel attacked. Yeah why? why? Yeah I think Richard.

30:19.89 Dan You can keep being the 3 year old kid and ask why over and over why why? I yeah.

30:20.41 Chris Um, I yeah I think that that's like that's a that's a great point if you had like if you someone came to you with some cryptocurrency proposition like where you're going to make 50% and six months or something like that and you say well. Explain to me like I'm five years old how you're going to. You know, give me back 50% on my money when every other financial institution you know is offering me 1% or 2% or something like that. Um, and if you don't understand the answer.

30:47.67 honestconman Yeah.

30:52.47 Chris Right? after a couple of questions right? That is probably a bad sign. Why either they're not telling you the truth. They don't understand it themselves or they don't have a deep enough understanding to be able to make the promise right? like they are making the promise without really understanding. You know how they're going to get from here to there. They're hustling you some you know some way or another.

31:06.44 honestconman Yeah, and I guess that could also work with your internal dialogue as well is to ask yourself the questions that a child would ask to to ask? Um I think Richard Feynman that was one of his techniques for figuring out exactly what you know is to imagine you're explaining something to a. To a child and you're not allowed to use long words you can only use very simple language and to very quickly figure out what's yeah what's wrong

31:33.79 Dan Yeah I use that in my teaching all the time when I'm teaching our undergraduate honors students. Um I know that they can explain it to me because I have the background to understand it. But I have them try and explain it to their 10 year old sibling right? And if they can't do that then they don't understand it well enough yet.

31:50.88 honestconman Yeah, great. Um, let's let's talk about gullibility because reading the book. It's very clear that you're saying that everyone's brains do these. Everyone's brains work in a similar way and we're all.

31:51.71 Dan Yeah.

32:08.62 honestconman Ah, open to to this type of manipulation in different ways. Does that mean then that there is no such thing as gullibility that you you can't really be a sucker um and it's just a case of the the you know you know the Cot artist still the the swindler is is just flicking the the right switches at the right Time. Or are there just some people who are more likely to bit to get scammed.

32:30.74 Chris I I think there is a sense in which there's some individual variation and and how gullible we are but it's not the important point to worry about I think like as a practical matter like you shouldn't try to convince yourself that you're not gullible and the victims of Bernie Madoff for example they were all gullible. Or all the you know wealthy, you know, educated people who sent money to you know Larian and you know and so on that there's some difference between you and all of those people that makes you invulnerable like that's not the right lens to look at this with because then then you'll you'll really expose yourself to a lot I think if you if you go through thinking.

33:06.90 Dan Right? Okay, but.

33:08.30 Chris You know too highly of yourself that way you might be a little less Gullible. You know than than other people you might be a little more discerning and like detecting bullshit For example, versus you know versus accepting it. Um, but the key thing is that you know the the good scammers like they will figure out something that works for you? um. Because a good scam or a good con is is sort of based on what the victim you know believes what they're assuming what they're expecting, you know what information they're paying attention to and not and all of those things are those are human universals pretty much as far as as far as we know you can craft something that's going to work for anyone. It might be harder for some people than others. But.

33:35.17 honestconman Here.

33:46.95 Chris That that's the key thing. There's always something waiting for everybody somewhere.

33:48.47 Dan Yeah, United say it's undoubtedly harder for some people than others right? Some people are going to be much more skeptical if you're trying to fool a professional magician with a magic trick. They're going to have a lot of guesses about how you're doing it and they may not be right? but they're going to approach it in a completely different way because they have a lot more experience and.

33:58.60 honestconman Man.

34:05.99 Dan The same is true for for all of us right? There can be some contexts in which we know to be skeptical right? and there are going to be others in which we're likely to be gullible or likely to fall for something if it's framed in just the right way that matches our desires meets with our sort of habits and hooks us with the information we want then we all can be. Subject to this and I think that's really the key point here is that we can't assume that other people are gullible because they fell for something. Um, you know? Yes, they might be but you might be under the right conditions too.

34:36.63 honestconman Yeah, so it's it's it's almost as if different um ah everyone has their own different ways in which they are ah more likely to be deceived and just because say I wouldn't fall for. Bernie made off scam doesn't mean I wouldn't fall for a romance scam you know for simple example.

34:56.92 Dan Yeah, exactly and and you know a lot of the scams that are that work right? now are very much targeted. So a lot of the call Center scams that are based on reaching out to people who are maybe in a country illegally and pretend to be from the you know immigration services or. Somebody who might be financially struggling and they know that they might pretend to be from the tax services. Um, whereas if you know that you've paid all your taxes and you know that you're a citizen of the country you're in those are not going to be very effective on you.

35:29.37 honestconman Yeah, so it's a yeah, yeah, it's something I hadn't considered that this information is out there and and you know obviously there's information that is out there about me that it's not necessarily my bank account details and my passport number.

35:37.51 Dan Oh.

35:46.66 honestconman But it could be the fact that I'm self-employed my age. My um, you know, maybe the the types of things that I'm interested in and the con artists can use that information to create a ah custom scam I think they call it spearer fishing. Yeah.

35:54.11 Dan It weather you on your own house. Yeah, absolutely.

36:03.36 Chris Yeah, this can be very this can be very bespoke like in the famous Theranos case. Um, well where you know sort of Elizabeth Holmes the the you know the founder of Theranos famously just went to in fact, just went to prison very recently as as we're recording this finally. Um.

36:05.90 honestconman The spark.

36:19.15 Chris She crafted some of her messages. Um, you know, very specifically when she was trying to attract investors who had you know, um, family histories of people who suffered certain diseases and illnesses and so on she would talk about how you know. Cancer testing you know was was possible with her you know with her diagnostic test machine and so on and I think there's a lot of evidence that you know she um you know she looked into that or at least acquired some information even about that kind of you know about about that kind of thing Psychics. For example, you know who do the the so-called cold readings. You know in front of an audience. Often They have you know themselves or people who have sort of looked up some information about you beforehand but yet they pretend to know nothing about you. But what's coming out of your mouth right? at that moment right? So There's a lot of ah. You know there's a lot of information out there about us and and people may use it. You know people may use it against us for sort of harmless entertainment or relatively harmless entertainment or for something or for something much much much worse.

37:17.84 honestconman And that ties into the the chapter on Precision. You know the idea that this the the more precise ah information is is and more detailed information is the more likely we are to accept it as as true. And that uncertainty and vagueness are ah sort of seen as as untrustworthy is is there? Ah ah, an evolutionary or ah or a neurological reason why we think that way.

37:47.28 Dan It actually makes a lot of sense right? that? Um, if somebody genuinely has precise details right? So if they actually have a really good model of reality and they can give you a really precise answer that means they have a good understanding right? So going one direction. Great understanding does lead to precise information and the problem is when you assume if somebody is giving you precise information you kind of assume that there's a causal connection there that they actually have a deep understanding when they might just be faking it So they're taking advantage of the fact that when when something's truly precise. It's often a sign of.

38:16.10 honestconman A.

38:24.10 Dan Good right? It's often a sign that it's valid. Um, and we're just misusing that when somebody's trying to use that information against us.

38:32.67 honestconman I am ah filming a Tv series about scams and during the lunch break. 1 of the cameramen was approached by. Do you have the white. Do you have the white van scammers in um, in the us the the guys who kept.

38:47.80 Chris It's it's some kind of meme. It's some kind of meme that there are these white vans all over the place and like they'll kidnap kids into the you know into the white vans or something like that. Oh what's it? Okay, so the white vans in Australia are different. Ah yeah.

38:51.53 honestconman Oh no, oh that's a different one. Oh no, this is yeah yeah, the serial kill. Oh I like the freak with free candy scrawled on the side of the van and the kids running and then I'm yeah I would run it I a hundred percent yeah if you've got candy I'm there.

38:53.60 Dan Yeah, hear the white bands are the serial Killer Van it's either a kind of contractor or a serial killer. Yeah yeah.

39:03.81 Chris Yeah.

39:10.89 honestconman No, this is this is this is a scam. It's it's It's basically they drive around in a van and they have um, high-end electronics for sale that they sell out of the back of the van.

39:14.58 Dan Um.

39:24.37 honestconman And the implication is maybe they're stolen or maybe like oh this is leftover from a job and it's a little bit sketchy and so we're shooting this show and the show is about scams and I watched and the camera member was talking to a guy with a white van and we were planning an episode about the white van scam and I walked up and. The guy was launch had launched into this extraordinarily intricate sales pitch. It wasn't just I've got some high priced electronics. He was. He had the brands he was talking about frequencies of the wireless he was talking about how now this is this brand. You might not have heard of this brand but it's actually this other brand. That's you know that they've. But if this is how they release it in Portugal and that um you know do you know the you know the clapper thing where the lights turn off and on um these are the same people who developed that technology but and he just and and and the cameraman handed over money. Ah, right? then boom got the speakers and um got scammed. Ah while you know, just. But as you said that level of precision. It wasn't just hey you want to buy some some speakers a sound system. It was do you want to buy the x two 7000 um, you know soundronic system.

40:20.75 Dan That's yeah.

40:30.48 Chris Yeah, so that reminds me quite a bit of a scam or at least a a sales practice that we actually did talk about in the book which is selling supposed collectible artworks in improbable venues like on Cruise ships.

40:32.40 Dan Um, yeah.

40:46.57 honestconman Yeah.

40:48.63 Chris Or on late night infomercials or something like that. Um, and you know if if you think like well why would I ever who would ever buy a picasso on a cruise ship or off of a Tv show. You're not the audience for that scam right? So you know, crazy improbable scams. Probably have a different audience from you. Um, and if I mean I don't can't say anything about your camera. You know your camera operator anything like that. But um, ah probably out of the back of a van is not where used to be buying electronics you know as a general as a general rule. There are.

41:21.52 honestconman Oh.

41:24.55 Chris You know there are better. There are better venues for for making those kinds of for making those kinds of purchases and it should be a sign that you may be stepped into something you know when you find yourself in a place and you you you might ask yourself like you know why am I buying you know before you.

41:25.20 Dan Now.

41:38.74 Chris Farer money. Why am I buying what I you know what I have ever normally thought like if I was in the market for speakers. What I have gone out looking for white vans you know or something like that or what have gone to some other venue to to try to buy to try to buy the speakers I wanted.

41:52.40 honestconman Yeah, there is though isn't there that idea that when we are in a strange situation or in ah in a situation where we're separated from our community and separated from our support networks that our ah desire to try our our.

42:10.41 honestconman Not sure what the how you measure it. But how our our trustingness like but 1 of a better word goes up. You know if we're in ah in a situation. You know we're on holidays we feel like oh you know I feel very uncertain I've got to find people to connect with and trust so sometimes those odd situations.

42:26.67 Dan Yeah.

42:27.49 honestconman Um, paradoxically make us more likely to make those kind of bad holiday decisions.

42:31.60 Dan And it's only going to work in that sort of a context if it's something that you think maybe I'm getting a deal here right? So you have to you have to know enough that you want speakers or you know hey you know those sound really good and I've heard of this brand and you know I like high-tech stuff. So.

42:36.76 honestconman Yeah.

42:48.67 Dan You know that's that's going to make it that much more appealing in the same way that if you fancy yourself somebody who wants to have art on your wall right? and you know who Picasso is right and you see it up at a at a cruise ship and you have enough money to be on a cruise and you have enough money to be looking at art on a cruise you're the target because you're going to be looking at this? oh. Wow, that's that's a good deal and I know who that is and you know maybe this is something that I can take home and I will have had to find and I think there's sort of the that's part of the appeal is is you know finding that target audience who's maybe a little bit eager and then selling it to them with a lot of detail.

43:13.44 honestconman Um, yeah.

43:26.60 honestconman I think you must go on classier cruises than I do because I've never never seen a pathbo on a cruise ship before I am I have a friend who works ah as a performer on Cruise ships and she sends me photographs of the art and it is some of the most.

43:29.57 Dan I've I've been on one cruise in my life and like yeah yeah.

43:38.41 Dan Why.

43:42.59 honestconman Bizarre horrific like art that I've ever seen in my entire you know at like an anm. Um anrm of Porphic olives jumping around of flaming playing cards and we like the sort of the real kind of Elvis painted in on velvet type art that gets sold on those things.

43:45.26 Dan Yeah.

43:59.30 Chris I've I've never been on a cruise myself but they sell that stuff in casinos in Las Vegas their art galleries inside casinos have all that crazy all that crazy stuff. It's it is it is.

44:01.47 honestconman He yeah. Yeah.

44:10.97 Chris But of course they're not advertising it. They're not selling it as though it's sort of like you know, find masterpieces you know and so on a lot of it is sort of deliberate kitch and I think there's a whole you know buying like buying a flaming skull t-shirt or something is a whole thing you you know you're supposed to do and in in Las Vegas um but that's why I think that's why these these thing that's part of why these things are so fascinating. Why would you think you can get a salvador dolly on a cruise ship and that you're getting some great bargain when like 6000 people must be boarding that ship every week or something like that you know like this is not as exclusive as as the as they make it seem you really need to really stop and ask yourself.

44:48.43 honestconman Ah, yeah.

44:49.32 Chris Um, ask yourself Why why? you're you know why? you think that this is why you think you're getting a deal I guess might be the way to to summarize it Why you think you've got a special opportunity. How special is it really? Yeah, yeah.

44:55.69 Dan Yeah, yeah, yeah, why why? me? and what am I What am I doing here is this is this realistic? yeah.

45:04.16 honestconman Yeah, you mentioned that idea of you know that this is I think you said like this is what we do in Las Vegas is that we buy kitsch art does that go back to that idea of prediction and it's sort of it's almost. Ah. Expectations for your own behavior. It's like I'm I'm in this I'm in this situation. What is you know what is expected of me. How am I expected to act and and how should I act based on you know, based on that sort of external information and those those. Kind of predictions of our own behavior does that does that apply in that situation.

45:42.75 Chris I I would say yes I mean I think that the social context often has a huge influence on our on our behavior right? You do certain things in certain places that you don't do in in other places I think in terms of the framework that we go over in the book I think expectations and familiarity are probably a big. You know are probably a big part of that. Um, ah and it definitely definitely can have a huge definitely can have a huge influence.

46:11.32 Dan But yeah, the social pressure is to not question right in in some contexts. So if you're at a psychic performance. It'd be really awkward to stand up and say no I think you're lying right? I mean you generally wouldn't do that. Um, because there's a strong pressure not to do that.

46:22.30 honestconman A.

46:28.77 Dan And that's going to be true in a lot of Contexts like this where you you've got somebody who's kind of going through their sort of rapid fire sales pitch with lots of details and you know you can you can stop and ask them questions. But if you're in a social situation where you are not supposed to ask questions. It makes it that much harder. Right? If there are lots of other people who are just kind of nodding along that makes it really hard to to challenge.

46:52.43 honestconman How what do you? suggest people do in that situation where maybe you have questions. But there's the all of that pressure to to not ask questions how to I'm I'm very much I'll put up a hand and ask the question because I'm ah you know a little aggressive and like attention. But.

47:08.33 Dan That.

47:09.43 honestconman My wife for example is very non-confrontational and doesn't would never you know doesn't even want to ask questions in a situation which you're supposed to ask questions How what would you suggest someone like her does in order to to you know to to to get that information.

47:27.40 Chris I guess the number 1 thing I would say is if you don't want to make a spectacle out of yourself. Um, one thing you should always keep in mind is that they're almost never exploding offers you know like those Picassos are going to be there on the ship next week. Um, you know that money managers fund will be there. You know? ah. Almost all offers that are worth taking are not exploding if you don't take them in the next you know 1 minute 5 minutes 10 minutes 30 minutes or something like that those any offer like that. Ah outside of you know certain maybe job offers by in very aggressive industries and so on you know and so I think are just usually.

47:51.59 honestconman Yeah.

48:04.79 Chris Things don't work that way so just go away think about it. Do your research like you have to open your mouth in front of other people but there are other ways I think to try to get the information you need that aren't so so you know social Socially you know, um difficult.

48:17.18 Dan And and part of the question is you know part of the challenge in this is not necessarily asking questions of the person who's trying to scam you although that's something you want to do but you should be also asking questions of yourself right? So that question of you know would I if I were looking for speakers would I find the white van if I were looking for fine art would I.

48:26.80 honestconman A.

48:36.73 Dan Go on a cruise and try and find their art gallery. Probably not so if you can ask that question of yourself then you can kind of say okay I need to hold off here. This is ah a pressure tactic.

48:49.92 honestconman It does sound though that this is hard work. This is not this is this is um this is hitting the this is hitting the mental gym. You know this is like you like the the the idea it it would just be much easier just to be scammed. And in fact I know a lot of victims of scams are scammed because it was easier than asking difficult questions a woman once told me she'd lost $5000 to scammers on the street and she says oh it was just easier to pay them to get rid of them. Ah and and it so it was just.

49:25.19 Dan Yeah, yeah.

49:25.99 honestconman Still I mean she told me this ten years ago and I think about all the time but it does it does despite the fact you have laid out all of this research and these incredible techniques in the book this this feels like hard work this feels like it's difficult to to get outside your comfort zone and do these things.

49:42.59 Chris Well, of course if you feel like you're in danger or something like that. You know, maybe paying the money is better than provoking something even you know even worse. So I don't know what was going on and in this situation but but certainly these kinds of interactions right? could go you know could turn you know could could turn it. They could turn into interactions of a different nature than they seemed at first in some cases but but most of the but but you know, but but Bernie Madoff was not you know breaking anyone's kneecaps with the baseball bat if they didn't invest in his fund and you know and and so on like that a lot of them are much they're they're much um, lighter touch. You know then.

50:01.40 honestconman Yeah, yeah, yeah.

50:19.80 honestconman Um, yeah.

50:19.25 Chris Been that and and and I think um, yeah, the option to do nothing is is always something we should consider you know very seriously like there's very little reason to ever do anything right away, especially that involves you know sending stuff of value to other people right? There's always time to do it later. Um, and. Ah, you know if there's not actual danger. Maybe there is you know a chance to you know a chance to walk away as far as the mental gym and and the hard work I mean I think 1 thing that I noticed when working on this book with Dan is that there's so many great stories of scams. Um, and they're fun to read and learn from. Um, and it's not that hard. It's not such hard work. You know to read about all these stories but then at least just do a little extra thinking about how did this actually work. You know what kind of patterns does it fit into and you know what would I have done in that same situation right? and and you know that's not that hard. You know I don't think hitting the mental in the mental gym is you know. Ah, it's not that hard.

51:16.74 Dan Yeah, and they're um, they're handful of just general principles that you can just have set up for yourself that you know if somebody calls and asks you to buy gift cards and read the numbers off to them. It's a scam by definition right? It's a scam but it's a really effective 1

51:26.46 Chris Ah, yeah.

51:30.21 Dan But if you know that right? if you read about a couple of these sorts of cases then you'll know that if somebody's putting you under a lot of pressure and forcing you to stay on the phone and um threatening you but they want you to go buy gift cards to scan right? Um, and that that's.

51:40.76 honestconman Yeah, it does sound like in that example that this there's 2 pieces of information there 1 is you're under a lot of pressure and the other is somebody is asking you to buy gift cards and they're both useful information but it feels like.

51:53.97 Dan Here.

51:58.25 honestconman That feeling of being under pressure and feeling rushed is that's the important thing because once the gift card scam has gone and and a new scam takes place. They're still going to be using that feeling of pressure and it's that it's that thing as we we focus on.

52:01.63 Dan Yep.

52:07.36 Dan That we another one. Ah absolutely.

52:11.10 Chris But yeah, and you're not going to get. You're not going to get rid of the pressure by sending them a couple of gift cards then they're going to say oh it turns out, you know your balance is actually higher than we thought we need you to go back and do it again. You know so the idea that the pressure is going to go away if you just comply I think is an illusion in a lot of cases. A lot of these scs they're they're going to keep it going.

52:18.50 honestconman Um, and.

52:26.17 honestconman It.

52:30.83 Chris Right? I mean for as long as they can so the pressure is not going way. That's if you realize the pressure is never going away. Yeah, if you realize the pressure's never going to go away then that might give you a little bit more confidence to try to stop. You know the stop before you know before the first before the giving in for the first time.

52:32.46 honestconman Um, yeah, or or sell or sell your.

52:43.25 Dan Yeah, yeah, but you're right though, they'll stop using gift cards right? and they'll use something else and there will always be that pressure there because that's just a good tactic to get people. You know worried or afraid. Um.

52:56.83 honestconman Um, yeah.

52:57.79 Dan There's There's another scam right now. That's really horrific. That's ah it's ah, a kidnapping or injury scam. So It's a targeted scam so they they find people and they call and pretend to be somebody's kid or grandkid typically grandkid and they're in trouble in some way. They need money right away. They've been arrested or they've been in an accident.. They don't have money to pay. Um, it's nonsensical stories. But there's a lot of pressure and there's a lot of fear right? and it's using that exact same Tactic. It's not asking for for Cards. It's asking for something else, but same idea right putting in putting you under a huge amount of pressure. Making you think oh I should do something to help right? and you know those are those are horrible scams and they're praying instead of on your your desire for fine art. They're preying on your fear that something's really dangerous or bad has happened.

53:46.32 honestconman Yeah, it's not. It's not necessarily about greed. There are other there are other emotions and and feelings we can feel wonderful, but so the book is nobody's full Why we get taken in and what we can do about it. It is on sale everywhere now.

53:50.55 Dan Right? yeah.

54:06.13 honestconman I've got copies for sale out of a white van that I'm that I Yeah yeah yeah, that's right? Why does.

54:12.24 Dan Um, exactly 330 pages with lots of fucking print and.

54:15.56 Chris Ah, yeah, but by the way the signatures are not ours on his copies I Just want to say that right now we didn't sign those copies. So if you see the signatures That's ah that's a tip off.

54:23.37 Dan Um I.

54:25.12 honestconman Yeah, yeah I tried to get you to decide copies for you. You quickly realized that it was actually wait a minute. This is a power of Attorney Not ah, not a coffee of like but fantastic. Thank you so much for being on scamapalooza. Okay.

54:37.23 Dan Absolutely thanks for having his son.

54:38.81 Chris Thanks for having us.

54:42.30 honestconman All right now. Just hang on one second.