Narrator: You're listening to the humans of DevOps podcast, a
podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills,
knowledge, ideas, and learning, or the skil framework.
Ian Evans: I think the other element that's important from a
business perspective, as we know, most businesses want to
run hybrid workloads. The frustrating part for most of the
businesses is they didn't feel there was a really good standard
to essentially control all these devices in the data centers.
Eveline Oehrlich: Welcome to the humans of DevOps Podcast. I'm
Evelyn Erlich, Chief Research Officer at DevOps Institute.
Some of you might remember what a SIS admin does, and others
might not. I do and I remember the hard work when I was in that
role. I was part of a giant data center consolidation many years
ago, and I was a sysadmin in the year y2k Or year 2000. Okay, I
know that dates me, but I don't really care. However, when I
hear people saying that the data center is dead, I have a very
strong reaction because it's not true. That is why I've invited
two thought leaders and founders who have architects and design
the solution, which focuses on the work in the data center. And
today, as I said, we have two leaders which have created a
very interesting solution called mattify, or a company called
mattify. We'll talk about the solution in a little bit. Let me
introduce the two gentlemen. So first one, Michael Wagner, is a
co founder and CEO of mattify. He began his career in 1995 as a
network engineer, when he joined IBM while still attending the
University of Wisconsin Madison. He worked in several senior
management positions at IBM in Boston and San Diego. Before
joining Red Hat in 2010. Michael was head of Channel Sales and
alliances for North America at Red Hat. He was one of the
creators of Red Hat hats, epics partner program for system
integrators, implementing OpenShift Kubernetes solutions
in his final role before launching mattify. The second
person is Ian Evans. He is co founder and CTO of mattify. He
began his career in 1999. As the director of IT for Quintus
resorts. He got his first taste of working in software startup
when he next joined was Zabi systems. As Director of Product
Management at wasabi, Ian was deeply involved in all aspects
of product development and strategy. In Sprott expertise in
cutting edge infrastructure technology led him to multiple
senior architect positions with some of the top technology
companies on the planet including AWS, Verizon, Lockheed
Martin, and Red Hat. Ian's final role before launching mattify
was principal architect for the global open solutions practice
of WW Ts, and welcome to Our Podcast management. My wonderful
gentleman. Thank you. I call this podcast a glimpse into two
co founders journey for the data center a sounds a little bit
like Star Trek. I am a Star Trek fan. So hopefully don't you
don't mind. It is great to have you to with us today. And I'm
excited for our audience to listen in. So we before we talk
about mattify Ian, can you share with me how you two have decided
to become co founders and create mattify? Where if you met give
us the story?
Ian Evans: Sure. Yeah. So we, I've known Mike for about a
little over four years. And the idea of what we generally
started working on a bunch of different technologies around
the data center. And you know, in our respective roles, we
really saw a lot of limitations around getting the product out
to market and doing it in a way that was kind of free of
obstacles. So of course that started the the discussion
around starting our own company, and starting to figure out how
we start to tackle the issues in the data center, but build the
product to basically facilitate what we feel need to be done as
quickly as possible. So we got our start working on all those
different technologies. You brought it all into a single
product plan. And then we started to make some
determinations on what areas of that data center we're going to
tackle first. And that really led to the creation of mattify.
And the wonderful product that we have called Mojo.
Eveline Oehrlich: So medified name and does it stand for
something? It does.
Mike Wagner: Yeah, so mattify it's a portmanteau combination
of two words so metal and simplified. So we put the first
couple letters of metal last couple of letters that simplify,
and you get
Eveline Oehrlich: mattify. Great love that. I bet that was a
variety of cycles of thinking, which ideation around the name.
That's fantastic. So, Michael, what does mattify do? What is
and what is so unique about mattify?
Mike Wagner: Yeah, so we went against the grain, we saw a need
in private cloud and data center space, in particular. And as the
sort of definition of what a data center is, was quickly
evolving, you know, the needs of system administrators, the needs
of folks that are in infrastructure and operations,
don't go away. And as that great little meme that was floating
around and still is, you know, what is the cloud, it's just
somebody else's computer. And that's, that's the reality of
it, you know. So for us, we recognize that the hyper scalars
have done a great job of automating their infrastructure.
And they did such a great job that, you know, companies all
around the world decided, well, let's just get rid of this
problem, when we're starting off. While the data centers in
most of the Fortune 1000, companies really didn't change
all that much. If you look at historical spend, data center,
data centers have grown, as far as server spend, and as well as
total megawatts, even in the private data centers have grown
consistently, every year. And that hasn't changed. Now, cloud
and hyper scalars have grown much faster. But the fact that
the data centers are still out there is a testament to the fact
that you know, fortune 1000 companies, companies that reach
a certain size, the economies of having their own hardware makes
sense. So it's that kind of question about do I rent? Or do
I buy? And at some point, it certainly makes sense to buy. So
yeah, so what we did was we wanted to make that incredibly
simple. We wanted to create it so that you know, the hard work
that say Googles and Amazons have done to make public cloud,
incredibly consumable, super easy to spin up a server, and
get the exact hardware profile that you want. We wanted to make
that as easy as possible for private organizations to do
behind their firewall. And also, you know, there was a big switch
going on, that really was the impetus for launching things in
where we got our first use case was right on the edge. So of
course, the development of 5g and the need to move, compute
and storage closer to the customer themselves, really led
to us, you know, creating a couple of different use cases
for our product. And I think that's helped to drive growth
overall. So bottom line is we just wanted to make accessing
the hardware, discovering it, provisioning it, and maintaining
it, as simple as possible treat it as a first class citizen, if
you will, all the investment had really gone AppStack, you know,
into applications and application frameworks and
DevOps, you know, and in general, like OpenShift, and
Kubernetes, and Docker. That's where all the interest was. But
the fact that, you know, everyone was still toiling down
at the server level, and at the chip level, to get these things
to talk and get them organized that way they need to with the
right access, and governance, compliance, all those things
still existed. It's just somebody else's computer and
call it a cloud. But at the end of the day, it's a bunch of
servers.
Eveline Oehrlich: Yep, I understand when you said that
you went exactly the opposite to where everybody else's has been
going. And particularly during the pandemic, people were
thinking, Oh, we got to move to the cloud. And they took those
two years or whatever how many months it has, and they did it.
But there's still a whole bunch of and I wish we could quantify
it. How much is still out there. I'm sure Gartner has some data,
in terms of how many data centers are still out there.
Alright, great. So where are you going with the vision for
mattify? What is what's the short term? And are whatever
short term means short term to me mean sometimes a day? But I
don't mean tomorrow, but you know, in six months from now, in
a year from now, what's your vision forward?
Mike Wagner: Yeah, so we have an established channel program. So
that's a big part of what we do. We've got incredible business
partners that we work with. But from a vision perspective, it's
really taking the product to a broader audience. We currently
our installation process is something that we're working on
right now, because we want to make it push button, you know,
immediately deployable from our site. So that's a big step for
us. But overall, it's just a matter of, you know, continuing
to do what we're doing and make more customers aware of it. The
footprint that we have right now really covers most sectors. So
we've had a great opportunity to work with folks in financial
services as well as media and entertainment, banking,
insurance, you name it, we've kind of had Uh, we're working
with those customers. So that's a, that's a great thing. So you
know, from an execution perspective, we want to make
sure that we're doing the things that we want it to do really
well, which is the discovery, provisioning and maintaining of
servers themselves. And then expanding that out as we grow
into really all of the edge use cases and IoT sensors. And the
best part about where we're headed is, it's defined already,
for us, essentially, we leverage open standards. And so the open
source communities, and the open standards, communities that made
our product possible, are really defining directionally where we
go. And from a r&d perspective, that's something I learned from
Red Hat, there's really no beating the open source research
and development model, there's no beating the open source
software development model, because your r&d is essentially
handled for you by the community, you know, and as the
community demands something, it gets rolled into the open
standard. And then we make it almost instantly accessible
inside of our product after we test it and make sure that it
works across different hardware profiles. So that's, that's one
of the great benefits of having a redhead background is that
it's, it showed me the power of open source, and the power of
open communities overall, to really help drive product change
and making sure that you're not heading down technical rabbit
holes that aren't gonna lead anything, you know, these are
all community driven. And so whenever you're taking your
marching orders from people demanding features, you know
that there's going to be an audience for it.
Eveline Oehrlich: They're a different culture than it was
when I started out in it, which was 90, in the 90s. I'm glad
we're here. And that's very beautiful. I keep telling my
daughters, hey, you should go into it. But maybe I had too
many ITIL books on my nightstand, and they didn't want
to do that. So there are different topics today, but so
very successful young ladies. So culture is everything. It says
on your whiteboard, Michael, in your office, little word was
telling me that. What, how does that translate in your day to
day because for us, the DevOps Institute, you know, it's just
human angle. We forget, there's a lot of talk about tech, and
all these different things. But the culture and how we work and
how people come together is essential. Otherwise, we'll
basically are machines. So tell me a little bit about how this
culture is everything translates at your day to day mattify? With
your coat with your customers, your clients and everything
else?
Mike Wagner: Yeah, so that's great. Yeah. So from a culture
perspective, we really lead with three core elements, if you
will. And I think, you know, culture evolves over time in an
organization. But as a software startup we came from large is
large enterprises in the past, and we saw a few things that we
thought, okay, if we launched our own, we know exactly what
we'd want. So that was another very cool thing of doing a
startup is you get to kind of build it to your dream, right?
And eat and I, our cultural wants, in terms of what a
company should be, we're just perfectly aligned. So
essentially, it's number one is kindness. So no egos no
pretense, no bad attitudes, right. If you're not having fun,
I always have the saying, if you're not enjoying it, you're
probably in the wrong job. And, you know, you should consider
other options, right? We enjoy a greatly coding and we love what
we're doing, we, you know, the hardware in general. And that
intersection of where hardware and software meet is just a
really cool space to be. So kindness is number one,
transparency is number two, and transparency, because that
enables trust, right, and without trust, you don't have
much, especially in a small organization. And you can boil
that down to individual teams if you're in a larger organization.
But for us the transparency, you know, we've got a small group of
folks here trying to make this dream happen. And that have made
the product an award winning product now, and you know, some
some amazing customers. So it really has to be there, from the
very beginning. And throughout the build process. So you know,
essentially being able to see what they've done, you know,
let's take a look at your code for today. Right? How did things
go? Always checking in So transparency is number two, and
number three would be consistency. And that's really,
you can view that as essentially a self discipline, right, and
the will to collectively work hard towards a common goal. And,
you know, the excitement around In our product Mojo platform,
and you know, the fact that we have some really cool customers,
and that we're working with some, some, some of the largest
global players in their respective spaces right now is
really exciting. So I think it's much easier to kind of create
the collective vision now that the product is built, and
everyone sees the potential around it. And so it's, those
are the three main ones, though kindness, transparency, and
consistency. And as long as you have those things in place, you
know, you can kind of take on the world.
Eveline Oehrlich: Yeah, I'm sure you get to read that culture is
everything when you visit Microsoft Office, anything you
want to add to that,
Ian Evans: I think might hit all the the major ones for us. I
mean, I agree with them. You Humility is a big one for me.
You know, I think that that goes a very long ways. And I think if
you get the right people in place, and they enjoy their
jobs, like he'd said, they're doing great work, you know, the,
the, the ability to manage becomes a lot easier, you know,
you don't have to engage in a lot of micromanagement and stuff
like that. So it's all about, you know, just the attitude,
this the selection of the person in the role and allowing them to
kind of spread their wings, you know, I'm allowing them to take
all the cumulative skills that they've gathered over the years
and feel that strong spirit of innovation, and push it forward
into in the product. And I think when you do that, you get the
best elements of everything, from a company perspective, a
product perspective, market readiness, all of all of those
things come together into a great package. So yeah, I
definitely agree with everything he mentioned with maybe those
those, those couple extra things from from a company management
and cultural perspective and all those things.
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Eveline Oehrlich: Great. That makes me think of one of my
former colleagues at Forrester used to say actually two of them
to steal some research, excellent research, they're at
Forrester Research. He used to say, happy employees, happy
customers. And that goes for all kinds of products, right? So if
we have happiness and enjoyment, then that translates into happy
customers, because we enjoy what we're doing. And this is in your
case, and in anybody else's case, even flying, or driving or
ordering or anything like that. So great. Okay. Yeah. And
Ian Evans: I want to add one quick thing, and that is, you
mentioned happy customers peace. And that, that that is one of
the biggest things for us is that we, we felt that the
products being introduced to the market were way too complex. And
you know, and that obviously leads into positive customer
experience, you know, we want it to be as seamless and easy to
use as possible. And that to us translates to happy customers.
Eveline Oehrlich: Yep. Ah, that makes me think of something
else. I wanted to ask you community outreach, you guys
have done something around, making sure that there is basic
access to internet and things in rural areas called something
called photon Connect. Is that correct? Can one of you
elaborate on what that is? Because I think that is
beautiful when I heard about that.
Mike Wagner: Yeah. So a few years ago, when COVID hit, Ian
lives in the, in the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains. And
that might be one of the most challenging places to get
broadband signals into that I've ever seen personally, I'm in
Madison, Wisconsin, and comparatively, you know, it's
farm pastures out here. It's pretty simple. But we still have
a lot of rural broadband challenges as well. It's
surprising when you discovered just how, how widespread the
problem is across North America still. But when COVID hit there
was some teachers in particular that were having trouble
connecting and being able to have their classes you know,
delivered in a way that was actually usable for the kids. So
we identified a few of those teachers and reached out to the
school board and we're able to get them hooked up at no charge
to an Ian actually developed an amazing product that we've gone
on to work with commercially and have some some really cool
customers that we're working with on the come martial side
now, commercial enterprise side. And yeah, it's a it's called
photon router. And it's a it's a highly tuned customer premise
piece of equipment that takes care of all of the streaming
difficulties that you would discover it most people face
with much even higher bandwidth coming into the home. So yeah,
that was that was the key, we established our own ISP, and
essentially got these teachers online, so they could teach the
classes with some degree of performance and actually be able
to interact with the kids and use the the Zoom classes, and
the features that that the the school board was using. The
district was using to try and enable the remote learning that
was in place during COVID.
Eveline Oehrlich: Beautiful, very noble, great, great idea.
All right, cloud repatriation, we've seen it we're hearing it
to to, you know, some fin ops or cost observability organizations
are repatriating out of the cloud. Not all not everything.
But we've, we've seen it in DevOps Institute and talked to
all ambassadors and they see it as well. So in what are some use
cases, you've seen what Cloud repatriation makes sense? And,
and I like you, too, I know you are. I'm gonna call you a nerd.
But I mean it as a compliment, not as derogative at
Ian Evans: all. That's okay. I get called that a lot.
Eveline Oehrlich: Yeah, Miko calls you on the road all the
time. Okay. But instead of looking at it from the technical
perspective, I'd like to like you to focus a little bit on the
business value perspective, in terms of cloud repatriation,
what are some use cases you've seen?
Ian Evans: So I think the dynamics have changed a bit. You
know, one of the things that I've noticed immediately is,
you're starting to see miniaturization in terms of
hardware footprint, right? So things that when notoriously
kind of take, you know, three rows, or more, you know, for
large workloads, as an example, those are things that you're
consolidating down into one or two racks, or even less now,
because of the core counts and the efficiencies that are
brought forth with new server technologies. So, you know, when
it comes to a real estate perspective, looking at it from
a spanned, it becomes a much easier scenario for a lot of
companies, because they can look at that as footprint reduction,
less building size, less cooling infrastructure, so forth, all
these translate into lower costs. So what was a major
obstacle before in that regard is is now been, you know,
largely fixed with the efficiencies and the
consolidation of hardware. So that's one major driver there.
And it makes it possible for people to put very powerful
workloads into smaller spaces, so they don't need huge data
centers to do that. I think the other element that's important
from a business perspective is we know most businesses want to
run hybrid workloads. The frustrating part for most of the
businesses is they didn't feel there was really a really good
standard to essentially control all these devices in the data
center. So the MTF redfish standard is a great example of
an improvement in that area, and that it basically creates a set
of extensible schemas and purposes, it reaches into
servers and storage and other elements in the data center. And
really, the overall goal is to bring things into a standard
unified API that's easy to understand, easy to consume. And
above all else, is accessible through a multitude of different
OEMs. So customer puts in a command to power on a server,
that would be the same command across a Dell HP super micro
platform, and so forth. That's the overall goal. So with those
pieces coming in, from a business perspective, the
elements of automation are more achievable, as long as you have
a toolset that accommodates that. And that's really where
Mojo came in is we wanted to build that platform to use that
standard. So people can orchestrate automate hardware in
an in a very agnostic way. So that those those drivers really
help out quite a bit. And I think also there's kind of the
shock with Cloud spend as well, and it's relatively hard to
control. And you know, a lot of customers, they put workloads in
there and they have certain expectations and some of those
costs been out of control. And next thing, you know, you're
locked into specific technologies, maybe this public
cloud provider has and the spends very high so customers
are looking at ways with the things I mentioned earlier,
using those things, bringing it all together and bringing
workloads back into you know, kind of like a smaller on prem
type of footprint.
Eveline Oehrlich: Yep, makes sense. scuze me, I am doing some
research or we at the DevOps Institute have done five years
of research now on it upskilling or we call it upskilling at
2023. We just have a report public session we share a lot of
the findings there the top two domain skills or capabilities,
which are must have a process skills, you know, be it ITIL it
for it DevOps, agile scrum, you know, name them, and technical
skills. Those are the two top most important skill domains.
When we think about this topic of moving workloads, and or data
back to on premise on the skills in a data center, that's one
thing, I think that's one challenge, I can see already.
When we everybody wants to have clouds skills, and has cloud
skills and container skills and all of that wonderful stuff. The
second one political considerations if I'm the CTO,
and I decided two years ago, five years ago, we're gonna go
all cloud. And I'm still around. And now I have to say, I'm
sorry, but I think we need to move certain things back. That
could be carried over. Maybe. Those are just two aspects of
cloud repatriation conversations I've had with clients and and
others, Michael, to you. Have you had conversations with your
clients on Cloud repatriation, and hearing other things? And if
not other, maybe comment on skills versus cost and political
savviness?
Mike Wagner: Yeah, okay. So, couple good threads there. So
I'll start with the discussion around skills. And that was
really one of the core reasons why we developed the product.
You know, we saw Ian saw a need, and we've both had the
opportunity to go to data centers of some of the top
companies globally, and you see the way they're running things.
And you recognize that there's a few people that really hold the
keys to the castle. And they're from a hardware perspective,
which is, that's an exposure. And then being able to knowledge
transfer, how things are done internally is also a very
difficult thing. So we wanted to create really a first class
citizen, if you will, a first class application that makes
that intersection of people and hardware as simple as possible.
And that's where Mojo platform really came in. And Ian has a
navy background he worked in with some Navy contractors and
the KISS principle that keep it simple, stupid principle around,
alright, what can we do to build a tool that's just very easy to
use very intuitive, and handles all of this sort of manually
heavy, and very error prone activity that's often left to
individuals. And in particular, we're talking BIOS upgrades,
firmware upgrades, remote provisioning of operating
systems, remote booting of operating systems wiping of hard
drives. So you know, this, this low level, ability to do what
you need to do from a server maintenance perspective, just
was a glaring problem and having lived through it, you know, he
just wanted to create sort of the dream tool, if you will. So
handling that skills gap, and being able to allow companies to
take those resources and repurpose them into more
valuable roles, is, was an important consideration for us.
And one of the core reasons we built motion platform. So you
know, we want to make it so that anybody can come in with minimal
training on that tool, and be able to build private clouds
build, you know, the the pools that are necessary, provide the
infrastructure controls, the governance, the are back, all
the things that are required to have a well maintained
infrastructure that provides what your developers need, at
with just a few clicks. And that, that we've managed to do.
So we're excited about having sort of that phase one of the
project if you will, phase one of our, our software proven and,
and really loved by our customers. And the next piece of
it, the use cases, or the use cases really came to us again,
because you know, open standards. We have Major League
Baseball is a big customer of ours. And as an example, you
know, they're a hybrid company. They have stadiums all over
North America, and data centers, you know, the overall definition
of even what a data center is, is just stretching and changing
as we speak. And that's, you know, as we get closer to the
edge and as the demands of what compute and storage need to do,
because the optimization of the architecture itself requires it.
We just wherever the workload needs to be, we're fine with it.
So Cloud repatriation, yes. It's happening also from just a
application perspective, or they're like, well, we we did a
lift and shift because we wanted to get rid of the optics of
having a data center and the people right, and then they
recognize holy moly, there is or I should say the cap
expenditure. And there's an incredible operating expenditure
in the cloud. And there's definitely a break even point of
when you recognize that, with the miniaturization and advances
in technology and advances in chip power and the shrinking of
storage, you can do all those things in house for a lot
cheaper. And there's, you know, myriad cases where you can look
those up online and just see all of the money that's being saved
across the board. And we ourselves, have done some really
cool work in that regard as well. So the stuff that Major
League Baseball is doing is a hybrid cloud, we partnered with
Google on it. And it's just incredible to see all that's
enabled at the edge sitting on top of Mojo's provisioned
servers, and then it bursts up into GCP 7.2 terabytes of data
per game. And they've just got an amazing amount of really cool
data that's pulled in there for all of their fans to interact
with. And see in real time, you know, how far Aaron judges home
run went when he hit his 62nd. One, you know, so it's just
amazing all the things they can track even the speed of the ball
as it spins off the pitchers hand and, you know, more data
than you can imagine, gets loaded up and, and used by fans
every game. So yeah, it's the it's the use cases themselves
that have really brought this sometimes cloud repatriation,
sometimes just natural, new build, you know, Greenfield
space where we have to change the way the solution is
architected, to really get the option, the optimal footprint to
deliver the best experience possible to our customers.
Ian Evans: Yeah, wait, I was gonna add in quick thing on
that, you know, we also understand that, in order to
have a successful product that works well in, in a hybrid
setting, or, you know, in a private data center type of
setting to automate different hardware, you really need to
make sure that people that are coming from the public cloud,
find the tool relatively familiar, you know, so from a
DevOps perspective, you know, we wanted to make sure that we
weren't introducing something that seemed foreign or you know,
monolithic, it's kind of that like, fine balance, you know, we
want to make sure that we keep it very simple. We also want to
make sure that it's also familiar, and, you know, if, if
a DevOps person is working on our system, and they prefer to
use Ansible, they can use Ansible, they want to use
TerraForm, they can certainly use TerraForm. So we want to
keep it very open in that respect, as well, you know,
bring your own tools, bring your own servers, you know, flexible
platform, you know, very much common in terms of things that
they would see, within the public cloud, a lot of the terms
are the same. So we really worked hard to make sure that
the tool is recognizable to people that are coming from
those environments, but also, you know, very, very much usable
when they're using both of those environments at the same time.
Eveline Oehrlich: Great points. Excellent learning. Super. All
right. Last question. And this has nothing to do with any of
what we've talked about. Well, maybe I'll leave it up to you,
gentlemen. What do you guys do for fun?
Mike Wagner: Oh, boy. So I guess I'll go first. I love music. I
mean, I jokingly, Ian and I always joke around that this is
all just a front for us to be able to put our album out once
our company goes public. So but we'll see. Right. So I've been
playing bass for many years. And so that's that's something a big
hobby of mine, for sure. I also play chess. And I have five
kids. So that Oh, really busy. Yeah.
Eveline Oehrlich: Yes. Excellent. And you Ian.
Ian Evans: Yeah. So we might have some similarities in terms
of things we like to do for fun. I mean, music is a big thing for
me. I've done it for a long time I play bass, I play guitar. So I
enjoy that. I also just really enjoy working within the
community. So a lot of my time my free time is spent on you
know, things we talked like photon connects Community
Improvement Project, I want to see how I can improve outcomes
for people in the community. And I'm always looking for
challenges, you know, things that have been challenges for a
very long period of time. Nobody's addressed those. I love
those types of things. So when I see them, I tried to address
them. And if my background in what I've done in my background
can help push those things forward within the community.
That's one thing I spend a lot of time for on and then the
other ones are animal welfare. I'm very much involved in the
community when it comes to wildlife and sustaining that and
ensuring that you know, there's some involvement in the
communities involved in sustaining the natural wildlife
ecosystem here as well.
Eveline Oehrlich: Excellent. Gentlemen, this has been
Fantastic. You guys have enriched my life significantly
today. And I hope you've enjoyed this conversation as well. Thank
you again, for all of the learning and the sharing. And
your last part they are on what you do for fun.
Ian Evans: It's been a pleasure. Thank you very much.
Eveline Oehrlich: We've been talking to Michael Wagner, co
founder and CEO of benify. And Ian Evans, co founder and CTO of
mattify. Gentlemen, again, thank you very much for your time
joining me today on humans of DevOps podcast and have a great
mattify journey, I'll say.
Mike Wagner: Thanks very much.
Eveline Oehrlich: Yes, humans of DevOps podcast is produced by
DevOps Institute. Our audio production team includes Julia
pape, Daniel Newman, Schultz and Brandon Lee. Shout out to those
colleagues of mine do a wonderful job also at their day,
and recording and making sure things are well. I'm humans of
DevOps podcast executive producer Evelyn earlyish. If you
would like to join us on the podcast, please contact us at
humans of DevOps podcast at DevOps institute.com. I'm
abolutely. Talk to you soon.
Narrator: Thanks for listening to this episode of the humans of
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