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Narrator: You're listening to
the humans of DevOps podcast, a

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podcast focused on advancing the
humans of DevOps through skills,

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knowledge, ideas, and learning,
or the skil framework.

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Nickolas Means: If someone's
having a particularly bad Day,

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that's important context for
their teammates to know as

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they're working, and not having
the mental friction of having to

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put that down, when you show up
to work every day is a big part

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of avoiding burnout. Have it
been okay just to be a human

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network?

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Eveline Oehrlich: Welcome to the
humans of DevOps Podcast. I'm

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evolutionarily Chief Research
Officer at DevOps Institute.

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Today, we have a very special
guest, I'm very excited to

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introduce to you Nicholas means,
and he gave me the permission to

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call him Nick. So that's what
actually I will do during our

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call, and during our podcast. So
let me introduce him quickly. So

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Nicolas is the VP of Engineering
at sim S, Y M. That's how it's

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spelled. That's the adaptive
access tool built for

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developers. He's been an
engineering leader for more than

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a decade focused on helping
teams build velocity through

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trust and autonomy. He also is a
regular speaker at conferences

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around the world, teaching more
effective software development

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practices through stories of
real world engineering triumphs

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and failures. And I was just
listening to one of his talk,

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which we'll come to later on. So
welcome, Nick to our podcast

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today.

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Nickolas Means: Thank you so
much for having me on everyone.

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I'm so excited to be here.

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Eveline Oehrlich: Yes, I am
excited to talk to you. And of

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course, we'll try to make it
short and sweet. So that our

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listeners can enjoy some of the
learnings from you. Because you

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have been like, in my
introduction, a thought leader,

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and a engineering leader. And
that's really what the title

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today of the podcast is. It's
leading an engineering team

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today, which I think is not
easy. I'm sure it's fun. But

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that's really kind of at the
core. But before we go there,

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let's start with SIM digging
into sim solution, I found this

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very interesting sentence
infrastructure needs to be

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secure. It's something we all
can agree on. But how to make

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that a reality is different.
It's a very different hat. And

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this is where you guys sim have
done some great invention and

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innovation. So tell us about sim
and what it does.

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Nickolas Means: Yeah,
absolutely. So sim at its heart

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as a platform for creating
access and approval workflows

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for production infrastructure,
among other things. It lets you

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declare workflows in TerraForm,
right alongside the rest of your

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infrastructures, code code, lets
you customize the logic using

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Python and then execute those
workflows in Slack. And it's

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probably easiest to understand,
if I just tell you how we use

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sim at sim we're still a small
team, a lot of teams our size,

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we would probably still have
pretty wide open system access.

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But because of some of the the
customers that we sell to and

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the kind of product we're
building, that's not really an

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option for us, we're actually
already sock two type two

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compliant. So part of how we
accomplish that is putting a sim

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workflow in place for accessing
our own production

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infrastructure. So if an
engineer on our team needs

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access to something in prod,
they make that request in the

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Slack channel using the sim bot
and then any of the other

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engineers on the team can peer
approve that access for them. So

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it's kind of a two keys to
launch the rocket approach to

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production access. And it works
great, except in the middle of

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the night, because you don't
want the on call engineer to

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have to wake somebody else up
just to get the access, they

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need to troubleshoot. And so the
way we've solved that we have an

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SDK integration with pager duty.
So we can tell if the person

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that's requesting that access in
the middle of the night is also

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the on call engineer. If they
are the system will

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automatically approve that
access for them and let them

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access to production systems
that they need. So they don't

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have to wake anybody up in the
middle of the night to do it.

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Very

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Eveline Oehrlich: cool. Wow.
That is very cool. Super duper.

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I used to be a three on this
night call in many years ago.

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And of course, that is a great
appreciation on for my angle, if

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I would not be have to be waken
up but at that time, we didn't

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have things like that. Super.
Excellent. All right. So we do

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four or five years now we have
done research around skill skill

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building, or upskilling, as we
call it, and from this recent

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work this we call the
upskilling. It 2023 research.

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It's based on survey of over
more than 1500 folks across

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different roles, developers
operations, etc, etc. We see

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significant gaps across a
variety of skill domains, right

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there are skill gaps, of course
around process skills. And

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again, is it DevOps, isn't it
Till Is it safe? Is it agile or

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lean it for at all different
kinds of process skills, or

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technical skills, those are the
two top must have, or the areas

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where we see the biggest skill
gaps, but also leadership and

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human skills right behind that.
We also know that there are

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significant gaps across those
leadership and human skills

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categories. And as you've been
an engineering leader for more

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than a decade, I would love to
quiz you on some of these

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different skill domains in
specific leadership and human

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skills. So my first question is
really around leadership skills

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in today's organizations and
teams. What would you say are

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some best practices you have
applied to lead a team of

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engineers today?

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Nickolas Means: Yeah, that's a
great question. You know, today

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is doing a lot of work in that
question, because it has

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changed, leading engineering
teams has changed a lot,

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especially over the last, I
don't know, year, year or two.

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Probably the most interesting
trend is the shift to remote

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organizations that used to be an
officer or remote. Now, new

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companies that are forming are
sort of remote by default. And a

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lot of cases, just because of
the the shift and work practices

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that happened during the
pandemic. And things that would

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be good leadership practices,
and in an office setting become

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essential, you know, when
you're, when you're in that

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distributed context, and one of
the first things on that list

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for me is, is trust. You know,
when your engineers are spread

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out all over the place, they're
not in an office together, you

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lose the ability to kind of do
the button seat management

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thing, you can't look around the
office, see who's there, see who

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looks busy, and assume that you
know what's going on with your

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team. And I think this is a good
thing. But it's also a hard

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shift to navigate. As a manager,
if you've been used to managing

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teams in in an in person
setting, you have to be able to

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trust the people on your team to
do work, and you have to be able

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to show them that they're
trusted. Because, you know, a

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distributed team is by default,
going to have to operate in a

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more independent fashion than a
team in an office, they're going

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to spend more time kind of on
their own doing work. And then

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when when you have a team of
engineers that are working more

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independently, you have to spend
more time as a leader building

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context. You know, I You
mentioned in the intro that I do

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a lot of speaking at my talks
are a little different than most

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in that they're primarily
storytelling, I spend about 20,

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or 30 minutes telling a story
and then draw a conclusion from

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it at the end. But most of its
storytelling, and that crosses

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over into my day to day work a
lot as well. It's a, it's a

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pretty key tool in my toolbox,
around setting context for

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engineering teams. And being
able to tell the story of the

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organization, the story of our
customers, the story of the

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feature that we're trying to
build in a way that the

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engineers on the team can
connect with it, and work from

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it in an independent and
autonomous fashion. And then,

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you know, I mean that trust and
autonomy, I think it's important

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because it goes a long way to
helping engineers be happy and,

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and more satisfied in their
work. You know, it's one thing

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to pick cards off of an
engineering backlog and do them

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and ship the code and that
satisfying. But it's a whole

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different kind of satisfaction,
when you're able to take a

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problem that one of your
organization's customers is

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experiencing, go from that
problem statement, to figuring

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out what the right solution in
your platform would be. And to

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build that solution. And then to
be able to put it in the hands

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of your customer and see the the
work that you've done impacting

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the way that they're able to do
their work. So I'm always trying

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to find ways to connect that
whole thread and help the team

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see the whole thread of the
things that they're working on.

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Eveline Oehrlich: Great. So do
you get you get feedback from

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the folks saying, Hey, you,
awesome. I appreciate this trust

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you give me you could, I mean,
that's rewarding, I'm assuming

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for you as a leader as well,
right?

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Nickolas Means: It's one of my
favorite things. And it's one of

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the reasons that I I've, I've
sort of grown to lead teams this

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way over time, because it is a
lot more satisfying for me to be

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able to see my team build that
kind of satisfaction and to

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achieve that kind of growth. I
mean, one of one of the

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challenges and risks of of
leading this way is you have to

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be careful. You're giving people
the right amount of autonomy,

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and you're not asking them to
kind of you know, if they've

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never been rock climbing before,
you don't want to ask them to go

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climb the Dawn Wall. You want a
problem that is approachable.

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Eveline Oehrlich: Yep, the sink,
sink or swim. Right. Thinkorswim

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approach we've been through that
in old styles of leadership. I

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remember leaders in my former
life like that Excellent. Great

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example. Great, great idea,
storytelling and of course twist

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and autonomy at the right at the
right level. Yeah, this is a

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situation with engineers being
all over the world practical.

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just spoke to one of the
engineers who is leading a dev,

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a dev ops team, who moved to
Some for an island because he's

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a surfer and loves to work from
there. And of course, his team

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is somewhere completely
different in a timezone. And so

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he said to me, yes, my, my
manager, my leader, trust me

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completely I do. I feel great as
part of that team. So evidence

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to that as well. Excellent. So
let's shift on to the challenges

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leading teams of engineers, and
not just engineers, of course,

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but we're focusing on engineers
right now that's come without

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doesn't come without challenges,
right? Burnout, productivity

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issues are just a few. But I'm
sure you've seen other

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challenges. So what challenges
or problems have you seen as

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leader of engineering teams? And
then of course, how you address

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them? How do you solve them, and
you can pick one or two doesn't

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have to be, you know, like I
said, burnout or productivity,

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I'm sure you have other
examples.

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Nickolas Means: I actually love
that you mentioned burnout,

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because that's been a pretty key
focus of mine, for myself. And

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for the folks that I lead over
the past couple years. The the

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interesting dynamic that
emerged, sort of at the start

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and through COVID, was life just
got a lot harder across the

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board, there were a lot more
things to think about. I mean, I

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distinctly remember at the start
of the pandemic, going to the

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grocery store and facing a line
to check out that stretched all

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the way to the back of the
store. And that's something that

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I had never seen before. And
everybody on my team was doing

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that they're like, Okay, I gotta
go grocery shopping, and it may

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take me all afternoon to do it.
I'm, I'm feeling slightly guilty

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about missing work. And it's
it's sort of continued. I mean,

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there's, even as the pandemic
has waned, I wouldn't say it's

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over. But as its waned, there
are other concerns that have

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sort of stepped in, around
government. And you know, in the

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United States, some of the
challenges around gender

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affirming care that are
experienced in some of the

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states. And so it feels like
people just have a lot more on

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their mind and are having to
juggle a lot more outside of

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work context, in addition to the
work that we're asking him to do

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as part of our companies. And so
you know, that the challenge

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with that is, or the solution I
found with that is just to be

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more comfortable with people
bringing more of theirs

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themselves to work. You know,
it's, it's tempting to tell

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people, okay, you're at work now
set that on the shelf, I need

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you to be productive. But that's
not that's not how humans work.

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And we all know it, we just like
to pretend that that's not the

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way the way it actually is. But
there's a lot of power in

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welcoming those feelings,
welcoming those struggles, being

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able to talk about them in the
work context, because they are

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context for the work that people
are doing. If someone's having a

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particularly bad day, because of
things that are they're seeing

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in the news cycle that
particularly affect them. That's

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important context for their
teammates to know as they're

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working with them that day, and
not having the mental friction

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of having to put that down. When
you show up to work every day,

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is a big part of avoiding
burnout, I think of it being

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okay just to be a human at work,
and

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Narrator: skill up days and
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Eveline Oehrlich: You know,
this, this reminds me of again,

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my earlier career, I started it
a very large company, as a

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support engineer. And I have to
name them the company because

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it's important Hewlett Packard
at the time, and Dave Packard

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and Bill Hewlett had a theme it
was for many, many, many things.

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It's called I was called HP way.
And part of the HP way was

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actually exactly that. And this
goes back to I started there in

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83. So right so many, many years
ago, and I actually met both of

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those gentlemen once and yeah,
unbelievable. I still am very,

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very few myself very lucky that
I have met those two gentlemen.

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But in that HP way, it was
addressed exactly that to bring

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yourself into the company. And I
think it was Dave, who was

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telling a story at one of those
coffee talks and he said he went

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up to an engineer and he said,
why'd you leave? I watch your

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car. Every morning. I parked
next to your car and you leave

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the car window open, slightly
open. Why do you leave it open?

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Because it's raining by
discipline? Palo Alto it rains.

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And then and a gentleman said,
so that my personality wouldn't

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suffocate in the car. And
everybody was laughing about

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that. But that individual
obviously did not want to bring

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his personality in the leftist
person is humanity in the car.

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You know, I thought that was
really funny. It meets in

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matches really exactly what what
you were saying having that

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having that human and that's for
us DevOps Institute is very

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important. And that fits
actually with my next. My next

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thought and my next topic.
Again, in the research we did, I

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still, I was blown away that
collaboration and coordination

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is still the biggest skill gap
across these organizations, who

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answered all these individuals
who answered? So from the

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research, we found 35% When we
ask them, what are your top

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three gaps in human skills, and
this the first one was

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collaboration, cooperation, but
35% The second one was

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creativity and entrepreneurship.
And then the third was diversity

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and inclusion made, I'm not
surprised on the diversity and

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inclusion. We have made a lot of
progress, but collaboration and

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cooperation after so many years,
and after so much of work. So

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here my question, in your
opinion, why is it so difficult

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to get people to collaborate and
to cooperate? Because I mean, we

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all are working on goals should
be thinking we're working

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together and goals. But why is
it so difficult?

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Nickolas Means: Yeah, I mean,
it's, it's fascinating, the

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survey results that you just
cited. I think a lot of a lot of

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the reason all three of those
are lacking in a lot of

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organizations, kind of comes
down to the same root cause and

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that's lack of safety. You have
to build for all three of those

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00:17:00,809 --> 00:17:06,179
things possible collaboration,
ownership, inclusivity, there

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needs to be a foundation of deep
psychological safety, that's a

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part of any team that's going to
have those things as an as an

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attribute those skills present
in the work that they do. It's,

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it's really hard to collaborate,
when you're also competing for a

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promotion. And that's the thing
that's on the forefront of your

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mind, there's the zero sum game
that you're playing, you're

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trying to climb a ladder, you
don't feel very safe, you can't

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say I don't know, you can't ask
for help, you have to always

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look like you have it put
together in order to keep

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climbing that ladder. You know,
it's interesting, you mentioned

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the How to crash a plane talk,
one of the fascinating dynamics

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there. So that talk was about
United flight 232, which was a

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flight that sort of crashed
landed in Sioux City, Iowa, had

295
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a lot better the the tail engine
fan desk exploded, lost all of

296
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its hydraulics. But they managed
to get the plane to an airport

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and onto the ground in a
relatively controlled fashion

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for a plane that had no
hydraulics. And it had a lot

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better outcome than then it
probably could have. In fact,

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they, they tried to do it in
simulators afterwards. And none

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of the crews that tried to pilot
a plane that was set up in a

302
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similar configuration on the
simulator could come anywhere

303
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close to the outcome that that
flight crew managed to get. When

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you start digging into why that
is. This was sort of right after

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00:18:26,309 --> 00:18:28,739
Crew Resource Management or
cockpit Resource Management

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became an important part of
aviation. And it's this idea

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that that in the cockpit, you're
in a life or death situation,

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because you have to pilot this
plane safely. And in that

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situation, you should use all of
your resources at your disposal

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to do that. You know, prior to
cockpit Resource Management

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becoming a part of aviation,
there were all these incidents

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where the captain's word would
go. And the captain would sort

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of shut down the rest of the
flight crew or they wouldn't

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feel comfortable challenging him
even when they saw a problem,

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they wouldn't want to point it
out. And I use I use the word to

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him pretty deliberately there
because most pilots back then

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were men. And it's it's been,
it's been a challenge for the

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aviation industry to build Crew
Resource Management into the way

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that they work. It's an ongoing
thing that flight crews still

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work on, still receive training
on. But the key idea behind it

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is that everybody in the cockpit
gets a voice. Everybody that's

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participating in the situation
has a right to speak up to talk

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about what they see, to point
out what they're seeing. And the

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same sort of ideas translate to
engineering teams. You know,

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it's pretty easy in an
engineering team for one person

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on the team, to have the
dominant voice and to kind of

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force their will upon everybody
else on the team. They're used

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to their voice being the default
their viewpoint being the one

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that that's the most important.
And that's a really difficult if

330
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you're in that situation. It's
really difficult to Want to

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collaborate or cooperate or even
find the room to be able to do

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it. Whereas if you have a team
where everybody is seeking to

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make room for everybody else,
everybody is seeking to empower

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everybody else. Everybody wants
everybody else to succeed. And

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as as a leader of that team,
you're incentivizing that kind

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of behavior, and you're
rewarding people for that kind

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of behavior. Then you see
things, you see behavior start

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to emerge from the team that you
wouldn't see in the absence of

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that safety and that invitation
to participate.

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Eveline Oehrlich: Beautiful, we
should do, we should think about

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00:20:35,670 --> 00:20:38,910
a blog on that the lack of
safety or actually the

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inspiration, give inspiration to
ensuring that there is that

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safety feeling. It makes me
think of my two daughters, both

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of them's just started their
careers. One is an architect,

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the other one is an analyst, in
customer experience, and my

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00:20:56,370 --> 00:21:03,090
architect, she is in a even so
she's it's a women led company,

347
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but there is a lot of, let's
say, older architects and their

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male. And so she just sent me a
text yesterday, she's supposed

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to do a presentation today on
sustainability. And she is all

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worried about because there's
going to be a whole bunch of

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guys in the team. And they all
are thinking, and are very

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overwhelming. And I didn't know
what what to tell her. She said,

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Mama, what how I, of course, I
said to good, you know,

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enforcing that she has the
skills. And if you don't know,

355
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then ask the questions. And if
they ask you a question, and you

356
00:21:35,130 --> 00:21:37,860
don't know the answer, say just
you don't know the answer. Don't

357
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be asked them. But that was
shocking to me that, that she's

358
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so scared even so she's not
there for a year and a half,

359
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obviously, in that organization.
They don't have that safety net,

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or that feeling of safety. So
that's that is that is a that's

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a great blog, we should
collaborate on super great idea.

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Great idea. Let's do that. All
right. We are lacking technical

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00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,460
skills. I'm sure you guys have
challenges finding good

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engineers or skilled engineers,
right. And we do know and see.

365
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And again, this is from the same
research upskilling and, you

366
00:22:16,980 --> 00:22:22,110
know, learning initiatives, and
so on. But I'm curious on we

367
00:22:22,110 --> 00:22:24,180
talked a little bit about this
at the beginning, I'm curious on

368
00:22:24,180 --> 00:22:26,730
your thoughts around an
effective and a successful

369
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:30,990
upskilling or skill building
path. Let me share with you what

370
00:22:30,990 --> 00:22:35,160
we found from our research. So
we asked the question, what are

371
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,810
the top three upscaling
frameworks? Or how do you like

372
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to learn in the IT organization?
So 48% said they'd like to do

373
00:22:44,850 --> 00:22:47,970
virtual learning online events,
conferences, classes, self

374
00:22:47,970 --> 00:22:51,840
study, blah, blah, blah. In
person learning kind of goes

375
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:56,520
along with that, depending on
right where you are and how far

376
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and how much budget you have.
But then the next one is peer

377
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learning, buddying, workflow,
shadowing, pair programming and

378
00:23:03,660 --> 00:23:07,740
things like that. That's 40%,
then expert coaching, leader

379
00:23:07,740 --> 00:23:11,610
coaching, manager coaching, and
then experiential learning. It's

380
00:23:11,610 --> 00:23:18,870
about 31%. And then there were
20%. I can't believe that as was

381
00:23:18,930 --> 00:23:22,740
for doing fieldwork, maybe they
didn't think maybe I'm thinking

382
00:23:22,740 --> 00:23:25,530
of fieldwork or something
different. I call it the sink or

383
00:23:25,530 --> 00:23:29,580
swim model. But 20% A preferring
that I was like, what did they

384
00:23:29,580 --> 00:23:33,630
not read the survey correctly?
Anyway? My question for you,

385
00:23:33,780 --> 00:23:38,130
what has worked for what you
have seen in terms of skill,

386
00:23:38,490 --> 00:23:42,930
creation, and upskilling and
learning paths? In all of those

387
00:23:43,470 --> 00:23:46,770
things? What do you guys apply
when you bring in new engineers?

388
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:48,570
Or what do you see with your
customers?

389
00:23:49,589 --> 00:23:51,689
Nickolas Means: Yeah, it's
interesting. Again, I think, you

390
00:23:51,689 --> 00:23:53,699
know, the the shift to remote
work that we're seeing

391
00:23:53,699 --> 00:23:56,309
definitely plays into this and
changes some of the learning

392
00:23:56,309 --> 00:24:01,319
modalities that work best for a
team. There's sort of this

393
00:24:01,319 --> 00:24:06,239
common wisdom, that remote org,
you can't be a successful new

394
00:24:06,239 --> 00:24:10,259
engineer and in a remote
organization. And I've not found

395
00:24:10,259 --> 00:24:13,019
that to be the case. I've
actually seen some folks come

396
00:24:13,019 --> 00:24:15,179
straight out of boot camp and
remote organizations and do

397
00:24:15,179 --> 00:24:19,349
great. But it was because that
organization spent a lot of time

398
00:24:19,349 --> 00:24:21,209
in that that third category that
you talked about the peer

399
00:24:21,209 --> 00:24:26,639
learning, buddying pair
programming. You know, it takes,

400
00:24:27,749 --> 00:24:31,529
again, going back to safety, it
takes a safe organization to be

401
00:24:31,529 --> 00:24:34,259
able to pull that off for
somebody who's new to their

402
00:24:34,259 --> 00:24:37,799
career to be able to come in and
feel safe enough, saying I don't

403
00:24:37,799 --> 00:24:41,429
know over and over again. And
sitting with a more senior

404
00:24:41,429 --> 00:24:43,649
engineer and letting that senior
engineer kind of be the

405
00:24:43,649 --> 00:24:47,489
navigator in that pair. And let
them kind of fumble their way

406
00:24:47,489 --> 00:24:49,829
around and unstick them every
once in a while every once in a

407
00:24:49,829 --> 00:24:53,129
while. And it can feel if you
don't think about it the right

408
00:24:53,129 --> 00:24:55,199
way. It can feel like an
inefficient use of that senior

409
00:24:55,199 --> 00:24:59,969
engineers time. But if you think
of it in terms of an invest

410
00:24:59,999 --> 00:25:04,319
meant in upskilling. But the
young, the newer engineer, it

411
00:25:04,319 --> 00:25:08,069
makes perfect sense to spend
time that way. It, it's funny.

412
00:25:09,959 --> 00:25:11,879
I've had a bunch of
conversations with folks that

413
00:25:11,879 --> 00:25:14,129
are that are in that position
where they're the more senior

414
00:25:14,129 --> 00:25:17,009
engineer, they're navigating in
a pair, they're helping a newer

415
00:25:17,009 --> 00:25:20,999
engineer come up to speed, and
helping them reframe what

416
00:25:20,999 --> 00:25:23,729
they're looking for in that
pairing session. Yeah, of

417
00:25:23,729 --> 00:25:25,589
course, you want to get the task
done, you want to get the code

418
00:25:25,589 --> 00:25:28,259
shipped. But you're also going
to have to find some

419
00:25:28,259 --> 00:25:31,139
satisfaction or watching that
other person learn, or you're

420
00:25:31,139 --> 00:25:33,029
going to get really impatient,
and you're not going to let them

421
00:25:33,029 --> 00:25:38,099
do the learning that they need
to do. So that's probably my, my

422
00:25:38,099 --> 00:25:44,489
biggest strategy in this regard.
I don't know, I also, I think we

423
00:25:44,489 --> 00:25:47,339
tend to overemphasize this a
little bit in the technology

424
00:25:47,339 --> 00:25:50,789
world, the idea that that
someone is technically skilled

425
00:25:50,789 --> 00:25:54,659
enough to do the job. I think
most people that gravitate

426
00:25:54,659 --> 00:25:58,259
towards this kind of career are
technically skilled enough and

427
00:25:58,259 --> 00:26:01,559
sharp enough to figure it out.
And if you give them the

428
00:26:01,559 --> 00:26:04,469
resources, they're going to be
able to navigate that. And we

429
00:26:04,469 --> 00:26:07,229
don't spend a whole lot of time
in the hiring process screening

430
00:26:07,229 --> 00:26:10,319
for collaboration, screening for
ability to work together,

431
00:26:11,429 --> 00:26:14,879
screening for ability to be a
good peer on an engineering

432
00:26:14,879 --> 00:26:18,179
team. And that's, that's part of
what creates that culture of

433
00:26:18,179 --> 00:26:21,329
safety in the first place where
somebody can learn and grow and,

434
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and take advantage of
opportunities that are just

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00:26:23,189 --> 00:26:25,259
slightly outside their comfort
zone.

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Eveline Oehrlich: I am sometimes
amazed looking at the different

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00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,940
job descriptions, because skill
research is what I do, and

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00:26:36,870 --> 00:26:42,270
whatever, indeed, or LinkedIn,
or wherever I look at many of

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00:26:42,270 --> 00:26:45,450
these job descriptions for
DevOps engineers, automation,

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00:26:45,450 --> 00:26:50,640
engineers, developers, whatever.
And I'm absolutely amazed at the

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00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:55,440
lack of this human skills
requirements that put in there,

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00:26:55,530 --> 00:26:57,930
say, Okay, you have to know
Python, and you have to know

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00:26:57,930 --> 00:27:00,810
that, and all of that, and all
of that I'm sure these these

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00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,140
these folks have, right that
that's what they do. That's

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00:27:04,140 --> 00:27:06,690
where they are in the job, they
love this type of stuff. Why

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00:27:06,690 --> 00:27:08,970
don't they have other
requirements. And I think until

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00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:15,540
it is that way, that we have
those types of things. As a Must

448
00:27:15,570 --> 00:27:20,130
it, it will be a challenge. And
for those who are here, like

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00:27:20,130 --> 00:27:25,560
yourself, leaders to look up to,
it's hard work for you. It's

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00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:30,720
hard work to cast that shadow of
such a leader. But they're not

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00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,050
enough. And I think that's a
challenge. And for us at DevOps

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00:27:34,050 --> 00:27:38,970
Institute, we need to shift into
that human upskilling as well.

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But that's also hard, right?
Because how do you do that? How

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00:27:42,660 --> 00:27:45,900
do you how do you do that?
That's a question for next time.

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00:27:45,900 --> 00:27:46,440
Go ahead. It's

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00:27:46,530 --> 00:27:48,240
Nickolas Means: it's really
hard. Yeah. I mean, I think, you

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00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,510
know, it sort of gets back to
what do we incentivize? Yep. You

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00:27:51,510 --> 00:27:55,530
know, are we are we rewarding
people for shipping big marquee

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00:27:55,530 --> 00:27:58,770
features? Are we rewarding
people for making an entire team

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00:27:58,770 --> 00:28:01,530
more efficient by the influence
they have on that team? We

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00:28:01,530 --> 00:28:04,530
should reward both. But we often
don't reward the person that

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00:28:04,530 --> 00:28:05,400
does that second job.

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00:28:05,879 --> 00:28:08,039
Eveline Oehrlich: Exactly.
Absolutely. Well said,

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00:28:08,039 --> 00:28:11,609
fantastic. Well, I have one more
question and has nothing to do

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00:28:11,609 --> 00:28:14,699
well, maybe I'm not sure. My
closing question. What do you do

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00:28:14,699 --> 00:28:15,389
for fun?

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00:28:16,410 --> 00:28:19,500
Nickolas Means: It's funny I So
recently, I have been picking

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00:28:19,500 --> 00:28:24,150
piano back up, I played piano as
a kid, and then quit in, I

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00:28:24,150 --> 00:28:27,210
think, when I was about 10, or
11, and haven't played since.

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00:28:28,380 --> 00:28:30,900
And I've been learning to play
piano. And I've actually got one

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00:28:30,900 --> 00:28:34,380
in my office here sitting right
behind me. And I love it.

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00:28:34,410 --> 00:28:37,140
Because I'm good enough now that
I've got some songs that are fun

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00:28:37,140 --> 00:28:39,150
to play that I enjoy playing.
And I can go sit down at the

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00:28:39,150 --> 00:28:45,060
piano. And it sort of shifts me
out of out of out of thinking of

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00:28:45,060 --> 00:28:47,550
whatever problem it is I'm
trying to think through. It'll

476
00:28:47,550 --> 00:28:50,010
move that problem into my
subconscious because I'm

477
00:28:50,010 --> 00:28:52,950
focusing on playing the piano.
And I'll emerge from playing the

478
00:28:52,950 --> 00:28:56,130
piano 15 or 20 minutes. And my
brain has figured out what to do

479
00:28:56,130 --> 00:28:58,440
about the situation that I was
thinking about before I sat down

480
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,160
to play. Ah, I didn't expect
that when I started taking piano

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00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,740
backup. I just was I felt sad
that I didn't know how to play

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00:29:04,740 --> 00:29:07,230
piano anymore. But that's been a
really fun thing to realize.

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00:29:07,650 --> 00:29:09,810
Eveline Oehrlich: So double
double whammy double win for

484
00:29:09,810 --> 00:29:13,620
you. Excellent. That is
fantastic. I'm jealous. I'm too

485
00:29:13,620 --> 00:29:18,690
old to learn it. I have a
guitar. I played it. It's behind

486
00:29:18,690 --> 00:29:22,170
me. Maybe I should take your
your advice and do the same

487
00:29:22,170 --> 00:29:27,000
thing. Break. Stop the meeting,
stop thinking play a few tunes

488
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,660
practice. I will do that. I will
let you know how it turns out

489
00:29:30,660 --> 00:29:34,170
surprise deal. This has been
great. Nick, thank you so much.

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00:29:34,170 --> 00:29:37,680
Thank you for your time. Thank
you for the great advice for

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00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:41,430
some great coaching and I hope
our listeners enjoyed that very,

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00:29:41,430 --> 00:29:45,390
very much what you had to say so
again, thank you we've been

493
00:29:45,390 --> 00:29:51,240
talking to Nicholas means VP of
Engineering at sim sy M. Check

494
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,630
it out. And if you have a
chance, check out the How to

495
00:29:54,630 --> 00:29:58,860
crush an airplane. Which you
mentioned Nick. It's the Crew

496
00:29:58,860 --> 00:30:03,210
Resource Management In a lot of
war, a great story I loved I

497
00:30:03,210 --> 00:30:06,720
love the YouTube. It's on
YouTube on United Airlines. 232

498
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:11,370
DC 10. Crash, sad, but it's also
very, very good because it has a

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00:30:11,370 --> 00:30:15,030
lot of things again, Nicholas,
thank you so much for joining me

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00:30:15,030 --> 00:30:15,600
today.

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00:30:15,869 --> 00:30:17,219
Nickolas Means: Yeah, thanks so
much for having me on everyone.

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00:30:17,219 --> 00:30:18,329
It's been a great conversation.

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00:30:19,830 --> 00:30:22,050
Eveline Oehrlich: You humans of
DevOps podcast is produced by

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00:30:22,050 --> 00:30:25,470
DevOps Institute. Our audio
production team includes Julia

505
00:30:25,470 --> 00:30:29,430
pape, Daniel Newman, Schultz and
Brendan Leigh. Shout out to my

506
00:30:29,700 --> 00:30:32,550
wonderful colleagues who make
this sound even better when

507
00:30:32,550 --> 00:30:36,030
they're done with it. I'm humans
of DevOps podcast executive

508
00:30:36,030 --> 00:30:39,300
producer Evelyn earlyish. If you
would like to join us on a

509
00:30:39,300 --> 00:30:44,910
podcast, please contact us at
humans of DevOps podcast at

510
00:30:44,940 --> 00:30:49,140
DevOps institute that calm and I
did not make a mistake saying

511
00:30:49,140 --> 00:30:51,870
that. I'm Evelyn early. I'll
talk to you soon.

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00:30:55,290 --> 00:30:57,390
Narrator: Thanks for listening
to this episode of the humans of

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00:30:57,390 --> 00:31:00,930
DevOps podcast. Don't forget to
join our global community to get

514
00:31:00,930 --> 00:31:04,290
access to even more great
resources like this. Until next

515
00:31:04,290 --> 00:31:07,740
time, remember, you are part of
something bigger than yourself.

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00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:08,820
You belong