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Narrator: You're listening to
the humans of DevOps podcast, a

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podcast focused on advancing the
humans of DevOps through skills,

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knowledge, ideas, and learning,
or the skil framework.

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Grant Fritchey: We still focus
first on tech. And it's, it's

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really hard to get into the idea
of like, okay, yeah, that's

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important, right? It's very
important. But if you really

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want to do this stuff, you've
got to have communication skills

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to

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Eveline Oehrlich: welcome to
humans of DevOps podcast, I'm

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evolutionarily Chief Research
Officer at DevOps Institute.

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Today's episode is titled, from
a DBA jerk to a collaborator. We

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know, well stay with us, I think
you're gonna enjoy that. Because

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today we have a very special
guest, Grant Fritchie is with

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us. And let me tell you about
Grant. Before we give him the

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open mic to tell us a little bit
more about himself. So grant is

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a product advocate advocate
software, he has worked for more

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than 30 years in it as a
developer and a DBA. He has

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built systems from the major
enterprises to distributed

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systems to small boutique
companies. So you can see he has

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lots of experience, he writes
articles on various data related

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topics for SQL Server Central,
and simple talk. He is the

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author of multiple books,
including SQL Server execution

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plans, and SQL Server Query
performance tuning. He develops

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and presents complete structured
learning plans to teach assure

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AWS and other data related
topics to developers and other

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it or is personnel use a
Microsoft data platform MVP, and

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the AWS AWS community builder.
Welcome grant to our podcast

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today.

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Grant Fritchey: Oh, thanks a lot
for having me. I love this

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podcast.

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Eveline Oehrlich: I am glad you
are here. You know, I have been

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a DBA. Myself. And that really,
when I read your, your

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introduction, when we found you
that really caught really caught

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my eyes, because when I was a
DBA, right out of graduate

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school, at a very large tech
company, I felt very much the

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same. So let me quickly share
what Grant had said about

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himself. He said, I proudly wear
a nickname, The scary DBA. I got

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that in part because people just
find me generally intimidating.

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And in brackets, not sure why.
But also, in part because I was

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a jerk. I was one of those DBAs
that developers rightly complain

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about. So that's the first part
of what caught my eyes. And then

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he said, and he of course, he's
here now, but I'm quoting now,

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I'm all about teams
collaboration, and focusing on

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that fact that everyone within
the organization really does

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have common goals. So quite a
turnaround, right? So give us a

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little bit more insight on those
two statements grant.

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Grant Fritchey: thing? Well, me
I'm I am a slow learner, I

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freely admit it. But back in the
day, when they you know, there's

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a joke, everyone cracks, you
know, what's a DBAs? Favorite

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word? No. You know, I really
kind of live that life. I really

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did. And it hurt me. I mean, it
actually made it more difficult

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for me to to do things well
within the organization I was

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working for. And I learned while
I was there, that, you know, you

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get better results if you work
with the people that you need to

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work with. And the fact is, is
that we actually do all need to

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work together. And it you know,
it was a hard lesson, but it's

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one I picked up on and ran with,
to the point now where I just I

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focus first on collaboration, I
would much rather I would much

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rather talk to people and and
figure out things that are going

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to make us both happy and you
know, make it possible for us

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all to achieve the goals that we
need to achieve rather than, you

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know, I'm right, you're wrong
kind of approaches. And it's,

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you know, it's turned things
around for me in a big, big way.

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I mean, I've been much more
successful since I adopted that.

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Eveline Oehrlich: So as a
product advocate, that is of

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course very different from a DBA
being a DBA in an IT

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organization. Tell us a little
bit about what does a product

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advocate? Do? What does I used
to be a an evangelist, it sounds

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a little bit like that. But tell
us a little bit about what does

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the product advocate actually
do?

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Grant Fritchey: You kind of
nailed it. My initial title was

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evangelist, ah, absolutely, they
just slightly changed it. It's

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the idea is the same Redgate
software in this instance, makes

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database development tools and
database management tools, and

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cross platform, a whole bunch of
stuff. But the key here is that

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as an advocate, I don't want to
simply teach you Red Gate tools,

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what I want to teach you is why
you may want to go to Red Gate

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for your tools, because it's
more important you understand

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what it is that we're doing, how
we do things, the way the

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underlying database systems
work, and the way you know the

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interactions occur and the
automation methodologies that

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you have available. All of that
stuff is more important than

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simply showing you how to use
Redgate tools. And so my goal

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is, and my remit from the
company is to do a lot of

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teaching on general topics, you
know, DevOps as a concept, you

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know, database performance
tuning as a concept, you know,

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stuff like this, as opposed to
straight up, you know, here's

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how you use our tools. Funny
enough, after I teach that, then

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I go, Oh, by the way, our tools
make all of that easier. And so

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here's ways that can improve.
You know, what you do through

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the use of our tools, but we
focus first on education.

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Eveline Oehrlich: Love that. I
do like the advocate title

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better than evangelist. I, let's
like go in there. Because we'll

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have that conversation over a
cup of coffee or an adult

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beverage when you come visit me.
All right, so great. So we all

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think we know what collaboration
is. And, you know, if I go out

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here, and I asked some of our
folks, hey, what do you think

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about collaboration? They say,
Oh, yeah, it's very important.

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But what does effective
collaboration actually look

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like? What would you say?

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Grant Fritchey: Well, honestly,
that's hard. Collaboration is

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not difficult. It's easy to say,
you know, oh, well, we're all

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going to work together, we'll,
you know, we'll sing Kumbaya,

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we'll have a coffee, you know,
and off we go. But in reality,

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what's going to happen is that,
you know, speaking strictly from

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a DBA standpoint, for a second,
the development team is going to

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walk up and say, Hey, we need sa
privileges? Well, your, your

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answer is going to be no. Right?
But But what your answer needs

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to be to be collaborative is to
say, Well, why do you think you

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need these? And what is it that
you're trying to do? And let me

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figure out how I can help you
deliver whatever it is that you

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need to do, rather than simply
say, No, it's all about

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achieving understanding with the
people that you're working with.

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That's why it's hard because it,
it's frequently very difficult

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to go for understanding,
especially when someone walks up

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and asks for something that you
simply can't give them. Maybe,

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even if you wanted to. So like
essay privileges on production.

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So it, you know, I mean, it does
get hard to figure that out. But

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but it really is all about
communication and understanding.

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That's the driving to
collaboration. And until you're

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working first, on your
communication, understanding

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skills, you're going to have a
harder time with your

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collaboration skills.

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Eveline Oehrlich: Now the
challenge is, and I remember

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that, when, of course, I was,
you know, I started out in

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support on the HP 3000. Now that
gives away which company I

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worked for, I guess. And then of
course, I became an ingress an

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Oracle DBA. We never had, we
never really had time to

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collaborate, it felt like I was
always in a rush. I had to go do

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whatever I needed to do to
whatever. We did data warehouses

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at the time. So strip the data,
blah, blah, blah, right? It

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feels like the time the
challenge of being very reactive

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makes it very difficult to
collaborate. Would you agree

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with that?

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Grant Fritchey: Oh, yeah, 100%.
I mean, the more reactive your

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situation is, the less you're
going to be able to collaborate

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because collaborations,
communication, and communication

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takes time. And that's gonna
slow things down a bit. But

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that's also why you want to be
looking, I mean, we're sitting

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here talking on the humans of
DevOps podcast. That's why you

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want to be looking at stuff like
automation as a mechanism to

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free up some of your time to
find methodologies that are

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going to make it so that you can
focus on the more important

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aspects and not simply be
reacting to non stop little

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bushfires everywhere.

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Eveline Oehrlich: Yeah, I agree.
So we do a Every year, we do a

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fairly large project around
skill building, we call it

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upskilling. It, we just actually
just finished the report, it's

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in draft, and it's with a
beautifier, meaning a marketing

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person who knows how to make it
pretty. But in that research,

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it's based on survey data. And
there we found that

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collaboration and cooperation is
ranked as the biggest skill gap

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across a tea. That's the first
piece of data and all while at

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the same time our survey
respondents voted that

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collaboration and cooperation is
the third must the third must

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have skill behind diversity and
inclusion and problem solving.

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So of course, problem solving.
Yes, that is a something we do.

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I think people go into it
because we love to solve

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problems. But again, one end,
it's the biggest skill gap. On

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the other end, it is the number
three must have. Why is it so

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difficult? What stands in its
way? We talked a little bit

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about toil or right waist at the
time, the challenge? What other

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things stand in its way to be
such a difficult or such a big

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skill gap today?

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Grant Fritchey: Well, I think
it's, I think it's down to the

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way we approach it. A lot of the
stuff we do is we focus first on

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technology. And we ignore the
fact that it's got to be humans

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first, right it, you know, how
to Donovan Brown put it it's

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people, people process products
in that order. Right. So people

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first, then your process, and
then your products. And I think

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that we tend to reverse that,
you know, we're nerds, right? I

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mean, I and what do I care
about, I care about really cool

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tech, and really cool solutions,
and really cool mechanisms, new

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code, and all this fun stuff.
And we forget about the fact

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that it is all about humans, and
it's people that we need to

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communicate with. And what we
don't do is work on those

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skills, those those soft skills
that allow us to collaborate to

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allow us to communicate. And I
think that that's why it's such

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a huge gap. And I also think
that's why it's the third most

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important thing. But funny
enough, we put it behind what,

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you know, not diversity, that's
great, but we put it behind

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problem solving. What's what's
problem solving? Well, that's

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all about doing the tech. So you
know, we still focus first on

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tech. And it's, it's really hard
to get into the idea of like,

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okay, yeah, that's important,
right? It's very important. But

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if you really want to do this
stuff, you've got to have

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communication skills to

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Narrator: do you want to advance
your career and organization, we

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can help you do that. DevOps
Institute offers a wide range of

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00:13:08,370 --> 00:13:11,610
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certification, exploring the
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DevOps institute.com and join

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our community now.

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Eveline Oehrlich: You know that?
That is, of course, music to my

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ears, because when I introduce
myself to my family, friends, in

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what I do, they roll their eyes
and they go, Oh, you code. Like,

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I mean, it. That means I code
No, I don't code. I can code.

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But I talk, I collaborate. I
research, I do human things. I

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have a lot of EQ, I have a lot
of passion. I have a lot of

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conversations. And sometimes
they're just like, startled,

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they don't understand because
they think that when you are in

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it, you are a nerd and you code.
Yes, we do that some of us do

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that. Most of us have done it
and right. That's part of it.

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But I think that is a big
misconception we have and

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therefore we stay in that little
in that little cubicle because

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there was an additional detail
when we looked at the training

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or the upskilling. What
organizations and team members

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set in the survey response what
they were focusing on is

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technical skills. Right? So
might it goes exactly to your

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point so can you This is
something you know, personal

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postal question for me to you.
Do you think people can learn

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how to collaborate even if
they're not good collaborators?

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Or you are one of them? You? You
said you, you said you were a

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jerk, obviously, because you
were thinking you were a joke,

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but probably you weren't. You
just had a job. But you learned

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how to collaborate. So it's
possible to collaborate, right?

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To learn. It's possible.

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Grant Fritchey: Yeah, I think it
really is possible. And I talked

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about my scary DBA nickname,
because I kept that one. I don't

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talk about my other nickname,
which was a play on my name. You

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know, my name is Grant, and the
other nickname was rant. Meaning

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I would go off and scream and
yell, because people did stupid

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stuff. It really is possible to
learn, but you do have to focus

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on it. You have to it's one of
those almost like, acknowledging

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that you're an alcoholic. Right?
It's the beginning to solving

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that problem. Well,
acknowledging that, you know,

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yeah, I was a jerk, right? I
really was. That was the

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beginning of the solution. And,
you know, it's just

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understanding that you just
can't be, you can't be mean to

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people you kind of have to be,
you kind of have to be kind to

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really make things work. Well.

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Eveline Oehrlich: That gets me
into the next question. So what

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have you found works best to
foster that as yourself as a, as

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an individual contributor? You
said, be kind, what other things

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Tips Tricks, do you find
helpful? To, to know or to test

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yourself? Am I a good
collaborator? Anything? You you

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can remember? You did?

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Grant Fritchey: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
I love this one? That's a great

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question. The one thing I
learned, learned us again, a

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long time ago, is a really hard
conversation and a difficult

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conversation in that moment
where like, you need to

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influence somebody, you know,
and you're trying to

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collaborate, use their language,
to figure out the way that they

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talk, figure out the way that
they communicate, are they? Are

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they more of a tell person or
more of an Ask person? Well, if

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they're an Ask person, and
you're a tell person, change the

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way you communicate to theirs,
you know, ask them questions,

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could move them towards where
you need to move them, and use

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their language. So if, if you're
a DBA, go and learn some

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development language, understand
how source control works,

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understand some of the details
behind compiling code, and you

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don't even get get the language
that they use. If you're a

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developer, same thing go the
other way. Why are DBA so

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obsessed with backup? I mean,
get, get a little bit of an

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understanding of their language
and use that language when you

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communicate with them. That's a
that's a huge step forward in

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terms of getting collaboration
going. Because if you're if

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you're using a more common
language, it's much easier than

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to see the other side and find
those places where, oh, hey, I

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can help you. Not I'm simply
standing in your way or stopping

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you or trying to find a way
around you, I can help you. And

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it makes it much easier to have
that communication and that

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conversation.

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Eveline Oehrlich: What about a
leader? Because we all know, but

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we all know leader. So yeah,
let's leave it at that. But what

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can a leader do when he or she
sees their challenges within

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their team? Or between two
individuals or whatever? What

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What are your thoughts there?

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Grant Fritchey: Okay, so let's
let's break leadership and

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management and path. Yes. And
then and let me try to answer

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that question. Because I am a
wretchedly horrible manager, I

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tried moving into that area, and
I'm really, really bad at it. So

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I'm not going to try to advise
anybody on how you manage

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collaboration. But as a leader,
you know, whether a team leader,

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a technical leader, you know, a
thought leader, I mean, there's

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a lot of leadership you know,
there's there's that whole

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business possibility versus
personal responsibility,

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personal responsibility, a
leader, someone who's looked up

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to thought upon as you know, oh,
yeah, that's the person who runs

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stuff in our organization.
That's the first go to person.

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Leaders have to set the example.
They can't be cracking jokes

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about you know, stupid
developers or anything like

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that. You You've got to be
setting the the kind of

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communication you expect people
to do. Second thing you have to

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do is bought those moments where
there's conflict, and where and

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when you can rope the people
together and get them to, you

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know, who communicate with you.
Hey, what's the deal? What Why

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are we having conflict here? Why
aren't we cooperating and figure

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that bit out? Um, I've done it
multiple times from a technical

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standpoint, you know, when
people are no, no, no, we need

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to go left. No, no, no, we need
to go right. And you sit them

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down and go, Okay, well, hang
on, we can't do both. So what is

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the right path and work it
through them on that it's, it

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really is still back to
communication. But as a leader,

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your goal is you've got to set
you've got to set the, you know,

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the tone that everyone else is
going to follow.

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Eveline Oehrlich: I've heard
this phrase, casting the shadow.

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I think it was during my time at
forest or where we did a great

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workshop of casting shadows, in
terms of of leaders. All right.

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Excellent. Love that. One more
question. So this is, of course,

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touching on our favorite or so
favorite topic on the pandemic,

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right. So we won't be tucked
away in our home offices

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forever. And we were using and
getting back to offices slowly.

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Some are not. Some are. Yeah.
But my question is, what would

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you say has changed in terms of
collaboration since the

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pandemic?

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Grant Fritchey: That's also a
great question. So I've been

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working remotely, my, the
company's headquarters are in

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Cambridge, England, and I live
in Oklahoma. And so I've been

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working remotely for 12 years.
And when the pandemic hit, to my

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00:21:29,340 --> 00:21:32,910
whole thing was well, hey, you
know, Don MacLean, welcome to

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00:21:32,910 --> 00:21:36,420
the party pal. You know, it's
great to have you now in my

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00:21:36,420 --> 00:21:39,870
boat, where now you're, you no
longer have those hallway

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conversations, you no longer
have that fast, fast, effective

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face to face communication. I
think the big thing coming out

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of the pandemic, now that we're
coming away from it, I think the

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big thing is, is that a lot of
people have a better

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understanding of the difficulty
of remote communication and

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remote work. And as we move into
this more hybrid environment, we

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00:22:06,090 --> 00:22:10,800
all tend to think of, oh, you
know, Peggy's going to be

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sitting at home, how do we bring
her into this conversation

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better? And because they've all
experienced it now, whereas

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before, you know, I'm going
like, hey, please, no one's

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listening to me. No one's
listening to me. Now, they all

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feel that way meant no one
listened to me when I was

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remote. And so I think that I
think that's roping a lot of

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people into a better path.

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Eveline Oehrlich: That is a
great one. Yeah, that makes me

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00:22:37,770 --> 00:22:43,710
think of I have to find that
tonight. That was a great video,

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I have to look at it YouTube, it
is a funny one where a variety

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of folks are in a meeting. But
they're not in a meeting in the

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space. They're like calling in
from different places. It's a

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00:22:55,740 --> 00:23:00,180
it's a, it's a comedy, 10
minutes, laughing about making

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00:23:00,180 --> 00:23:04,470
jokes about that past of where
you felt like you. I've been

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home office since I would say 20
years. And every time I'm in a

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meeting, I wanted to say
something. Nobody listened. And

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this is exactly what I feel now
is like I'm part of it. So that

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is that is one great outcome, if
I can say that that's an

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oxymoron. But one great outcome
of the pandemic, right.

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Excellent. Well, Grant, this has
been fantastic. I have one more

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closing question has nothing to
do. Well, maybe it does. What do

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00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:31,710
you do for fun?

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00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:37,680
Grant Fritchey: Oh, I love
radios. I am a amateur radio

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operator. And I love playing
with radio tech. And I do all

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00:23:42,360 --> 00:23:46,770
kinds of crazy stuff with it.
From analog work, to digital

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work, stuff inside the house
stuff outside the house. I'm not

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00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,790
even going to try to bore anyone
with all the details. But I love

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my radios and I play with them a
lot. How

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Eveline Oehrlich: my colleague
at Forrester, my former

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colleague at Forrester was or is
still in that he actually put a

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00:24:02,940 --> 00:24:05,610
tower next to his house. Do you
have a tower?

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00:24:06,449 --> 00:24:10,379
Grant Fritchey: No, not yet.
Right now. Got a couple of small

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antennas outside. But I've been
looking at bigger one. For my

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wife.

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Eveline Oehrlich: There we go. I
was just going to say the

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spousal unit will need to
approve I can understand that.

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Well, this has been a great
conversation. Grant, thank you

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so much for joining me today on
humans of DevOps podcast.

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Grant Fritchey: No, thank you. I
really appreciate it. Like I

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said, this is a great podcast. I
listened to it.

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Eveline Oehrlich: Great. Thank
you. Humans of DevOps podcast is

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00:24:39,449 --> 00:24:42,449
produced by DevOps Institute.
Our audio production team

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00:24:42,449 --> 00:24:45,419
includes Julia Pape Daniel
Newman, Schultz and Brendan

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00:24:45,419 --> 00:24:48,329
Leahy. Shout out to my
teammates. I'm humans of the

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00:24:48,329 --> 00:24:51,749
Rob's podcast executive producer
Evelyn earlyish. If you would

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00:24:51,749 --> 00:24:55,859
like to join us on a podcast
please contact us at humans of

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00:24:56,009 --> 00:25:01,349
DevOps podcast at DevOps
institute.com. Please No, I did

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00:25:01,349 --> 00:25:06,089
not misspeak, any of that. I'm
Evelyn earlyish. Talk to you

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00:25:06,089 --> 00:25:06,509
soon.

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Narrator: Thanks for listening
to this episode of the humans of

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00:25:10,890 --> 00:25:14,460
DevOps podcast. Don't forget to
join our global community to get

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access to even more great
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time, remember, you are part of
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You belong