Narrator: You're listening to the humans of DevOps podcast, a
podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills,
knowledge, ideas, and learning, or the skil framework.
Grant Fritchey: We still focus first on tech. And it's, it's
really hard to get into the idea of like, okay, yeah, that's
important, right? It's very important. But if you really
want to do this stuff, you've got to have communication skills
to
Eveline Oehrlich: welcome to humans of DevOps podcast, I'm
evolutionarily Chief Research Officer at DevOps Institute.
Today's episode is titled, from a DBA jerk to a collaborator. We
know, well stay with us, I think you're gonna enjoy that. Because
today we have a very special guest, Grant Fritchie is with
us. And let me tell you about Grant. Before we give him the
open mic to tell us a little bit more about himself. So grant is
a product advocate advocate software, he has worked for more
than 30 years in it as a developer and a DBA. He has
built systems from the major enterprises to distributed
systems to small boutique companies. So you can see he has
lots of experience, he writes articles on various data related
topics for SQL Server Central, and simple talk. He is the
author of multiple books, including SQL Server execution
plans, and SQL Server Query performance tuning. He develops
and presents complete structured learning plans to teach assure
AWS and other data related topics to developers and other
it or is personnel use a Microsoft data platform MVP, and
the AWS AWS community builder. Welcome grant to our podcast
today.
Grant Fritchey: Oh, thanks a lot for having me. I love this
podcast.
Eveline Oehrlich: I am glad you are here. You know, I have been
a DBA. Myself. And that really, when I read your, your
introduction, when we found you that really caught really caught
my eyes, because when I was a DBA, right out of graduate
school, at a very large tech company, I felt very much the
same. So let me quickly share what Grant had said about
himself. He said, I proudly wear a nickname, The scary DBA. I got
that in part because people just find me generally intimidating.
And in brackets, not sure why. But also, in part because I was
a jerk. I was one of those DBAs that developers rightly complain
about. So that's the first part of what caught my eyes. And then
he said, and he of course, he's here now, but I'm quoting now,
I'm all about teams collaboration, and focusing on
that fact that everyone within the organization really does
have common goals. So quite a turnaround, right? So give us a
little bit more insight on those two statements grant.
Grant Fritchey: thing? Well, me I'm I am a slow learner, I
freely admit it. But back in the day, when they you know, there's
a joke, everyone cracks, you know, what's a DBAs? Favorite
word? No. You know, I really kind of live that life. I really
did. And it hurt me. I mean, it actually made it more difficult
for me to to do things well within the organization I was
working for. And I learned while I was there, that, you know, you
get better results if you work with the people that you need to
work with. And the fact is, is that we actually do all need to
work together. And it you know, it was a hard lesson, but it's
one I picked up on and ran with, to the point now where I just I
focus first on collaboration, I would much rather I would much
rather talk to people and and figure out things that are going
to make us both happy and you know, make it possible for us
all to achieve the goals that we need to achieve rather than, you
know, I'm right, you're wrong kind of approaches. And it's,
you know, it's turned things around for me in a big, big way.
I mean, I've been much more successful since I adopted that.
Eveline Oehrlich: So as a product advocate, that is of
course very different from a DBA being a DBA in an IT
organization. Tell us a little bit about what does a product
advocate? Do? What does I used to be a an evangelist, it sounds
a little bit like that. But tell us a little bit about what does
the product advocate actually do?
Grant Fritchey: You kind of nailed it. My initial title was
evangelist, ah, absolutely, they just slightly changed it. It's
the idea is the same Redgate software in this instance, makes
database development tools and database management tools, and
cross platform, a whole bunch of stuff. But the key here is that
as an advocate, I don't want to simply teach you Red Gate tools,
what I want to teach you is why you may want to go to Red Gate
for your tools, because it's more important you understand
what it is that we're doing, how we do things, the way the
underlying database systems work, and the way you know the
interactions occur and the automation methodologies that
you have available. All of that stuff is more important than
simply showing you how to use Redgate tools. And so my goal
is, and my remit from the company is to do a lot of
teaching on general topics, you know, DevOps as a concept, you
know, database performance tuning as a concept, you know,
stuff like this, as opposed to straight up, you know, here's
how you use our tools. Funny enough, after I teach that, then
I go, Oh, by the way, our tools make all of that easier. And so
here's ways that can improve. You know, what you do through
the use of our tools, but we focus first on education.
Eveline Oehrlich: Love that. I do like the advocate title
better than evangelist. I, let's like go in there. Because we'll
have that conversation over a cup of coffee or an adult
beverage when you come visit me. All right, so great. So we all
think we know what collaboration is. And, you know, if I go out
here, and I asked some of our folks, hey, what do you think
about collaboration? They say, Oh, yeah, it's very important.
But what does effective collaboration actually look
like? What would you say?
Grant Fritchey: Well, honestly, that's hard. Collaboration is
not difficult. It's easy to say, you know, oh, well, we're all
going to work together, we'll, you know, we'll sing Kumbaya,
we'll have a coffee, you know, and off we go. But in reality,
what's going to happen is that, you know, speaking strictly from
a DBA standpoint, for a second, the development team is going to
walk up and say, Hey, we need sa privileges? Well, your, your
answer is going to be no. Right? But But what your answer needs
to be to be collaborative is to say, Well, why do you think you
need these? And what is it that you're trying to do? And let me
figure out how I can help you deliver whatever it is that you
need to do, rather than simply say, No, it's all about
achieving understanding with the people that you're working with.
That's why it's hard because it, it's frequently very difficult
to go for understanding, especially when someone walks up
and asks for something that you simply can't give them. Maybe,
even if you wanted to. So like essay privileges on production.
So it, you know, I mean, it does get hard to figure that out. But
but it really is all about communication and understanding.
That's the driving to collaboration. And until you're
working first, on your communication, understanding
skills, you're going to have a harder time with your
collaboration skills.
Eveline Oehrlich: Now the challenge is, and I remember
that, when, of course, I was, you know, I started out in
support on the HP 3000. Now that gives away which company I
worked for, I guess. And then of course, I became an ingress an
Oracle DBA. We never had, we never really had time to
collaborate, it felt like I was always in a rush. I had to go do
whatever I needed to do to whatever. We did data warehouses
at the time. So strip the data, blah, blah, blah, right? It
feels like the time the challenge of being very reactive
makes it very difficult to collaborate. Would you agree
with that?
Grant Fritchey: Oh, yeah, 100%. I mean, the more reactive your
situation is, the less you're going to be able to collaborate
because collaborations, communication, and communication
takes time. And that's gonna slow things down a bit. But
that's also why you want to be looking, I mean, we're sitting
here talking on the humans of DevOps podcast. That's why you
want to be looking at stuff like automation as a mechanism to
free up some of your time to find methodologies that are
going to make it so that you can focus on the more important
aspects and not simply be reacting to non stop little
bushfires everywhere.
Eveline Oehrlich: Yeah, I agree. So we do a Every year, we do a
fairly large project around skill building, we call it
upskilling. It, we just actually just finished the report, it's
in draft, and it's with a beautifier, meaning a marketing
person who knows how to make it pretty. But in that research,
it's based on survey data. And there we found that
collaboration and cooperation is ranked as the biggest skill gap
across a tea. That's the first piece of data and all while at
the same time our survey respondents voted that
collaboration and cooperation is the third must the third must
have skill behind diversity and inclusion and problem solving.
So of course, problem solving. Yes, that is a something we do.
I think people go into it because we love to solve
problems. But again, one end, it's the biggest skill gap. On
the other end, it is the number three must have. Why is it so
difficult? What stands in its way? We talked a little bit
about toil or right waist at the time, the challenge? What other
things stand in its way to be such a difficult or such a big
skill gap today?
Grant Fritchey: Well, I think it's, I think it's down to the
way we approach it. A lot of the stuff we do is we focus first on
technology. And we ignore the fact that it's got to be humans
first, right it, you know, how to Donovan Brown put it it's
people, people process products in that order. Right. So people
first, then your process, and then your products. And I think
that we tend to reverse that, you know, we're nerds, right? I
mean, I and what do I care about, I care about really cool
tech, and really cool solutions, and really cool mechanisms, new
code, and all this fun stuff. And we forget about the fact
that it is all about humans, and it's people that we need to
communicate with. And what we don't do is work on those
skills, those those soft skills that allow us to collaborate to
allow us to communicate. And I think that that's why it's such
a huge gap. And I also think that's why it's the third most
important thing. But funny enough, we put it behind what,
you know, not diversity, that's great, but we put it behind
problem solving. What's what's problem solving? Well, that's
all about doing the tech. So you know, we still focus first on
tech. And it's, it's really hard to get into the idea of like,
okay, yeah, that's important, right? It's very important. But
if you really want to do this stuff, you've got to have
communication skills to
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Eveline Oehrlich: You know that? That is, of course, music to my
ears, because when I introduce myself to my family, friends, in
what I do, they roll their eyes and they go, Oh, you code. Like,
I mean, it. That means I code No, I don't code. I can code.
But I talk, I collaborate. I research, I do human things. I
have a lot of EQ, I have a lot of passion. I have a lot of
conversations. And sometimes they're just like, startled,
they don't understand because they think that when you are in
it, you are a nerd and you code. Yes, we do that some of us do
that. Most of us have done it and right. That's part of it.
But I think that is a big misconception we have and
therefore we stay in that little in that little cubicle because
there was an additional detail when we looked at the training
or the upskilling. What organizations and team members
set in the survey response what they were focusing on is
technical skills. Right? So might it goes exactly to your
point so can you This is something you know, personal
postal question for me to you. Do you think people can learn
how to collaborate even if they're not good collaborators?
Or you are one of them? You? You said you, you said you were a
jerk, obviously, because you were thinking you were a joke,
but probably you weren't. You just had a job. But you learned
how to collaborate. So it's possible to collaborate, right?
To learn. It's possible.
Grant Fritchey: Yeah, I think it really is possible. And I talked
about my scary DBA nickname, because I kept that one. I don't
talk about my other nickname, which was a play on my name. You
know, my name is Grant, and the other nickname was rant. Meaning
I would go off and scream and yell, because people did stupid
stuff. It really is possible to learn, but you do have to focus
on it. You have to it's one of those almost like, acknowledging
that you're an alcoholic. Right? It's the beginning to solving
that problem. Well, acknowledging that, you know,
yeah, I was a jerk, right? I really was. That was the
beginning of the solution. And, you know, it's just
understanding that you just can't be, you can't be mean to
people you kind of have to be, you kind of have to be kind to
really make things work. Well.
Eveline Oehrlich: That gets me into the next question. So what
have you found works best to foster that as yourself as a, as
an individual contributor? You said, be kind, what other things
Tips Tricks, do you find helpful? To, to know or to test
yourself? Am I a good collaborator? Anything? You you
can remember? You did?
Grant Fritchey: Yeah. Oh, yeah. I love this one? That's a great
question. The one thing I learned, learned us again, a
long time ago, is a really hard conversation and a difficult
conversation in that moment where like, you need to
influence somebody, you know, and you're trying to
collaborate, use their language, to figure out the way that they
talk, figure out the way that they communicate, are they? Are
they more of a tell person or more of an Ask person? Well, if
they're an Ask person, and you're a tell person, change the
way you communicate to theirs, you know, ask them questions,
could move them towards where you need to move them, and use
their language. So if, if you're a DBA, go and learn some
development language, understand how source control works,
understand some of the details behind compiling code, and you
don't even get get the language that they use. If you're a
developer, same thing go the other way. Why are DBA so
obsessed with backup? I mean, get, get a little bit of an
understanding of their language and use that language when you
communicate with them. That's a that's a huge step forward in
terms of getting collaboration going. Because if you're if
you're using a more common language, it's much easier than
to see the other side and find those places where, oh, hey, I
can help you. Not I'm simply standing in your way or stopping
you or trying to find a way around you, I can help you. And
it makes it much easier to have that communication and that
conversation.
Eveline Oehrlich: What about a leader? Because we all know, but
we all know leader. So yeah, let's leave it at that. But what
can a leader do when he or she sees their challenges within
their team? Or between two individuals or whatever? What
What are your thoughts there?
Grant Fritchey: Okay, so let's let's break leadership and
management and path. Yes. And then and let me try to answer
that question. Because I am a wretchedly horrible manager, I
tried moving into that area, and I'm really, really bad at it. So
I'm not going to try to advise anybody on how you manage
collaboration. But as a leader, you know, whether a team leader,
a technical leader, you know, a thought leader, I mean, there's
a lot of leadership you know, there's there's that whole
business possibility versus personal responsibility,
personal responsibility, a leader, someone who's looked up
to thought upon as you know, oh, yeah, that's the person who runs
stuff in our organization. That's the first go to person.
Leaders have to set the example. They can't be cracking jokes
about you know, stupid developers or anything like
that. You You've got to be setting the the kind of
communication you expect people to do. Second thing you have to
do is bought those moments where there's conflict, and where and
when you can rope the people together and get them to, you
know, who communicate with you. Hey, what's the deal? What Why
are we having conflict here? Why aren't we cooperating and figure
that bit out? Um, I've done it multiple times from a technical
standpoint, you know, when people are no, no, no, we need
to go left. No, no, no, we need to go right. And you sit them
down and go, Okay, well, hang on, we can't do both. So what is
the right path and work it through them on that it's, it
really is still back to communication. But as a leader,
your goal is you've got to set you've got to set the, you know,
the tone that everyone else is going to follow.
Eveline Oehrlich: I've heard this phrase, casting the shadow.
I think it was during my time at forest or where we did a great
workshop of casting shadows, in terms of of leaders. All right.
Excellent. Love that. One more question. So this is, of course,
touching on our favorite or so favorite topic on the pandemic,
right. So we won't be tucked away in our home offices
forever. And we were using and getting back to offices slowly.
Some are not. Some are. Yeah. But my question is, what would
you say has changed in terms of collaboration since the
pandemic?
Grant Fritchey: That's also a great question. So I've been
working remotely, my, the company's headquarters are in
Cambridge, England, and I live in Oklahoma. And so I've been
working remotely for 12 years. And when the pandemic hit, to my
whole thing was well, hey, you know, Don MacLean, welcome to
the party pal. You know, it's great to have you now in my
boat, where now you're, you no longer have those hallway
conversations, you no longer have that fast, fast, effective
face to face communication. I think the big thing coming out
of the pandemic, now that we're coming away from it, I think the
big thing is, is that a lot of people have a better
understanding of the difficulty of remote communication and
remote work. And as we move into this more hybrid environment, we
all tend to think of, oh, you know, Peggy's going to be
sitting at home, how do we bring her into this conversation
better? And because they've all experienced it now, whereas
before, you know, I'm going like, hey, please, no one's
listening to me. No one's listening to me. Now, they all
feel that way meant no one listened to me when I was
remote. And so I think that I think that's roping a lot of
people into a better path.
Eveline Oehrlich: That is a great one. Yeah, that makes me
think of I have to find that tonight. That was a great video,
I have to look at it YouTube, it is a funny one where a variety
of folks are in a meeting. But they're not in a meeting in the
space. They're like calling in from different places. It's a
it's a, it's a comedy, 10 minutes, laughing about making
jokes about that past of where you felt like you. I've been
home office since I would say 20 years. And every time I'm in a
meeting, I wanted to say something. Nobody listened. And
this is exactly what I feel now is like I'm part of it. So that
is that is one great outcome, if I can say that that's an
oxymoron. But one great outcome of the pandemic, right.
Excellent. Well, Grant, this has been fantastic. I have one more
closing question has nothing to do. Well, maybe it does. What do
you do for fun?
Grant Fritchey: Oh, I love radios. I am a amateur radio
operator. And I love playing with radio tech. And I do all
kinds of crazy stuff with it. From analog work, to digital
work, stuff inside the house stuff outside the house. I'm not
even going to try to bore anyone with all the details. But I love
my radios and I play with them a lot. How
Eveline Oehrlich: my colleague at Forrester, my former
colleague at Forrester was or is still in that he actually put a
tower next to his house. Do you have a tower?
Grant Fritchey: No, not yet. Right now. Got a couple of small
antennas outside. But I've been looking at bigger one. For my
wife.
Eveline Oehrlich: There we go. I was just going to say the
spousal unit will need to approve I can understand that.
Well, this has been a great conversation. Grant, thank you
so much for joining me today on humans of DevOps podcast.
Grant Fritchey: No, thank you. I really appreciate it. Like I
said, this is a great podcast. I listened to it.
Eveline Oehrlich: Great. Thank you. Humans of DevOps podcast is
produced by DevOps Institute. Our audio production team
includes Julia Pape Daniel Newman, Schultz and Brendan
Leahy. Shout out to my teammates. I'm humans of the
Rob's podcast executive producer Evelyn earlyish. If you would
like to join us on a podcast please contact us at humans of
DevOps podcast at DevOps institute.com. Please No, I did
not misspeak, any of that. I'm Evelyn earlyish. Talk to you
soon.
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