00:01.00 Kent That we end up just purely as a audio then don't we.
00:03.66 honestconman Yeah, that's right, It's just audio. Yeah um, although with your background like you've got a very magical background So as a um look I Just yeah I've got.
00:09.83 Kent We did we. But yes, yes oh I was admiring all the stuff behind the yeah Julia in the door death here. Yeah.
00:19.12 honestconman I've got levant and this this is the Julia one I got it I I wish I had maybe gotten it professionally cleaned like before framing it and I wonder whether yeah and yeah I'll have to hear you up for for your your people because I really love it.
00:29.53 Kent Um, yeah, could still be done.
00:37.10 Kent It.
00:38.81 honestconman And I think it's I sometimes this is when I was at state library there was that decision of like is the wear and tear part of the um part of the object itself. Do you know like say if there was a if there's a hole in the poster but that hole was made by Julia you know in a.
00:49.15 Kent Um, yeah, yeah.
00:59.21 honestconman I Don't know like she got into a knife fight with with her manager and the the hole is there then the hole is part of the the object you know buerras if it's ah.
01:05.79 Kent Yeah, well I've just been through exactly that same thing because I had some of Levant's posters out of his album line and I've spent thousands of dollars this year on on doing it and the question was you know.
01:12.63 honestconman E.
01:23.80 Kent This thing's got holes in it. Do I get them filled in or just just leave them and my was leave it as it is you? You're just making the stuff safe. So it doesn't fall apart.
01:25.20 honestconman A.
01:34.10 honestconman yeah yeah I think sometimes I mean like there's the um, Alma's father I want to say pharaoh for some reason. Fair Ross thank you the giant Ferris poster that they have at state library. They.
01:41.19 Kent Out Fair us? yeah.
01:49.48 honestconman They filled it in just with a color match so behind it. You know so they did try and so that from a distance you can get a sense of the poster. Um, but when you look yeah when you look at it. It's sort of and I think that that kind of worked and I think that's a giant piece. You know it's an important piece and.
01:49.95 Kent Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:59.70 Kent Yeah, it can be ah you sir yeah it it's it's a it's a 1 by 1 decision you have to make.
02:07.61 honestconman Yeah, the one that always got me. They kept asking me was they had these beautiful posters and they would have like Alma's alma had stuck his like address label on them on the front and I was I know and I sort of and they were like oh should we remove them or not and.
02:17.97 Kent I Wish he hadn't.
02:24.97 honestconman As someone who loves the posters I'm like yeah, let's get rid of them. But then the the exhibition was about Alma's collection and so the fact and it was kind of meant to be a whats and all exhibition as well. So leaving them on to point out hey this guy like to stick his stickers on everything is like.
02:29.56 Kent Um.
02:34.27 Kent Um, yeah, so.
02:43.92 honestconman Kind of like maybe that's part of the story. So yeah.
02:47.60 Kent It's useful in some ways because when you're scrolling through a bunch of photos. You can immediately tell whether it's elma or not but I wish you'd at least put them on the back somewhere or you know somewhere concealed but alt Alma like to have his name up front.
02:53.96 honestconman Um, yes.
02:59.84 honestconman Yeah, yeah, totally and let's get started because otherwise we'll just talk about the topic that we're going to talk about So it's ah it's essentially what we were just doing chatting about you know and we yeah check about everything and um if I I Always you know I know you so it's It's always it's.
03:07.16 Kent Um, yesha.
03:12.75 Kent Um, he hit everything.
03:18.78 honestconman Never going to be an interview you know like it's it's and it's and it's I prefer it that way. So it's all good I thought I would start by asking you so you are a I mean you're a collector of magic and magic Paraphernalia but you're also a researcher.
03:22.41 Kent Um, sure.
03:34.59 Kent Yet.
03:35.57 honestconman Ah, as well as I guess an archivist of sorts. You know you're you're preserving things as well and and and a writer in that you don't just collect all the objects and do the research you actually then write about them. What what drives all of that. What what makes you? you just keep doing this.
03:44.50 Kent No yeah, it. It's all about the stories and I I do it firstly for my own interest because it fascinates me. Um, but there are a lot of collectors in magic who accumulate you know, posters and books and photographs and things and they never share them and I I think that's pointless you know you can accumulate all this stuff. But. The the greatest magic historian ah of recent years Eddie Doris in in the Uk said First of all, you have to collect the stuff then you have to collate it or put it together to make a meaningful story and then you have to communicate it because what's the point of. Having stories that aren't told the whole basis of human civilization really is on telling stories and communicating. So um I I have become a collector by default because in the process of.
04:53.29 Kent Researching into those stories you then come across people who say oh I've got this postcard or a photograph or something like that would you like it and so you go Yeah, that'll be lovely and so you end up becoming an accidental collector.
05:06.41 honestconman Yeah, because when I think of magic collectors I think of David Copperfield who just has spent millions of dollars on ah collecting posters props paraphernalia photos and so on and and while he does let people come for visits.
05:12.48 Kent Um, it.
05:23.10 honestconman He he doesn't seem to be that interested in sharing his collection with the world. Um.
05:27.87 Kent Yeah, it's become more open than it used to be Copperfield I guess has started off collecting things for his own personal interest and you have to say that he's doing the.
05:32.55 honestconman Is.
05:45.87 Kent The magic world is serviced by keeping these things safe and protecting them. Um, but again, you know it's just a closed cupboard If. You don't let people in to have a look at the things and understand what these things are about then they're really of no importance. They're just. Bits of wood and cardboard and you know it's the stories around them that make it important.
06:09.19 honestconman Yeah, it's interesting the way in which you talk about it. You are essentially like ah like a 1 ne-man cultural institution in that you're doing the you're doing the collection you're doing the preservation. You're also um, doing restoration of of things which have been damaged.
06:23.30 Kent Um, yeah, yeah.
06:25.83 honestconman And then also you know communicating with the public. Um I mean as you know like I worked with the state library Victoria with the alma collection and there's often a tension between those various areas within within the library. So the library will have librarians who are trying to keep the book safe but then have and.
06:32.81 Kent Um, from.
06:44.37 honestconman Audience engagement team who are trying to get the books out there for people to see and then you have a conservation team who are trying to make sure that they're looked after or restored and and there can be a real a real tension between all those different areas. Do you find that? do you find that yourself.
06:57.15 Kent I do when the state library of New South wales a year or so ago was having a and a small exhibition. Very good exhibition on magicchik up at the the gallery there I lent them a few photographs and the. Meticulous care that they took of these photographs was unbelievable. I mean I have them safely stored in a folder but they were wrapping them in tissue paper and handling them with white gloves and that's great because you you know that your stuff's going to be looked after. But there is that balance between keeping them safe and getting them accessible and seen by the public. Um, and I have had a few friends who have been at that same mindset that they want to protect things by.
07:38.80 honestconman I.
07:55.39 Kent Keeping them at home and hiding them away and and never sharing them and it it just seems pointless to me sharing is the ultimate goal.
08:03.48 honestconman Yeah I think so I guess in terms of there's obviously limitations. You know there is how are we going to share that information if something is particularly fragile or particularly old you you have to sort of be able to control how that's been protected in some way.
08:17.63 Kent Um.
08:22.44 honestconman I Do think though with some of the um and maybe I think I don't have a very charitable view of collectors in general not just in magic. But I've seen how I think because most of them I meet them at Auctions when they're they're trying to get their hands on things and they're.
08:28.28 Kent No.
08:35.10 Kent Um, yeah, yeah.
08:41.60 honestconman Got a real sense of they they want to not just preserve it but they want to control it. They want to be the person who has the thing that nobody else has much like there are magicians who like to just have the secrets you know like they feel they feel powerful and they feel a bit Smug because they have.
08:49.12 Kent Yet. If you get.
08:59.40 honestconman You know they know how the trick is done and other people don't I feel like sometimes collectors not just magic collectors but all collectors they like to know I'm the person who has this and no one else does.
09:08.18 Kent Yeah, you can see that on a lot of collectors groups where it it is really a matter of show and tell and you know hey I've got this and you know I pay $30000 for this. It doesn't interest me I accumulate. Whatever.
09:17.52 honestconman A.
09:27.81 Kent I can get my hands On. Um, but I'm not going to be spending vast amounts of money just for the sake of saying I own this if somebody else has an important piece I'm quite happy for them to to have that. But but yeah, um. Collectors are a funny bunch and they will go and pay big bucks for something That's not really worth It. Essentially.
09:54.20 honestconman Isn't it the case though that it becomes worth it because they spent the big bucks I mean I know you know there. Ah you know say a book. There's ah, what's a good example I wrote this book is a gambling book that I have called road hustlers which um, it's it's a book of cheating card cheating. Ah, but it's not written by a magician. It's written by a a sociologist and it's sort of the the sociology of card sheets and for a while everyone was very obsessed with getting a copy of this book and the price just kept going up and up and up and then at some point people just went I think after it was reprinted Richard Kaufman did like a reprint ah of it.
10:13.68 Kent And.
10:30.60 honestconman And suddenly people just weren't interested in the book anymore and the value went down and so I feel like that. The fact that people are willing to pay for. It is the only reason why it's worth it in that sense.
10:31.91 Kent Yeah, yeah.
10:41.53 Kent It It is. It's so it's the only value is what somebody's willing to pay for something but in the case of a book my sort of view of that is that it's the information in the book. Not so much. The fact that it was printed in. 1600 or or whenever you know great. It's great to have and to hold these things and to treasure them for for the object that it is but ultimately it has to be what what does this contribute to your knowledge and so.
11:01.25 honestconman Um, yes.
11:11.52 honestconman Yeah, absolutely yeah I had a situation where there was a book that I really wanted I was actually in the book as well. I'd contributed to the book because it was a topic for the magicians listening. It's a book about the 10 card poker deal. Um, and I was really I I contributed to it.
11:21.25 Kent Um, yeah.
11:30.52 honestconman And so I was in it and but I never got a copy of the book and so I approached the author and said hey how can I get a copy of the book and they said oh no, no, you can't get a copy. You can't Nope sorry copy done and so I ended up I went Well I'm in the book and I really want this book and ended up paying way too much for it because it was.
11:36.30 Kent Um, oh.
11:39.97 Kent Um.
11:45.89 Kent Um, yeah, wow.
11:48.17 honestconman In such I think I paid $500 for the book and then three months later the author rereleased the book in a paperback edition and so because I only wanted the information in the book. So I had spent and it was worth it for the information but I can now get the book for.
11:57.56 Kent Um, ah yeah, big if.
12:07.78 honestconman That information for $50 instead of 500 so there's there's a real tension there with I guess with the as you said the value of what's in the book versus its value as ah, an an object for collectors right.
12:10.40 Kent Minutes.
12:20.81 Kent Yeah for for sure and you know I certainly treasure some of the items that I have because they have that uniqueness about them I I own one of Les Levan's original touring albums that he traveled around the world from the 1920 s but ah, it's no good just sitting on my shelf for me to look at and sort of dribble over but it was at the home of a former magician who had it there for thirty five forty years and never showed it to anybody and so in that term I regard it as having no value at all.
12:50.75 honestconman M.
12:58.19 Kent And the funny thing is that the original owners of some of these props and books and things have no regard at all. It's just like no you know here's a piece of junk I've had sitting around for years. Do you want it? Um, one man's trash is another man's treasure. So it all.
13:01.37 honestconman Um.
13:13.93 honestconman Yeah.
13:17.62 Kent It's what you can get out of it personally I I paid big money for a few items but and only very few.
13:23.60 honestconman Yeah, um, when tellla from yeah penitella was in in Australia recently I was talking to him about collecting and so on and he was talking about a specific book that he really wanted to get republished because the information in it was so important and. Ah, the story of how he managed to convince the non- magicians who owned the all the the papers and all this information that was going to go into this book and how he convinced them that this was not worth a lot of money but it was worth a lot historically and to magicians was it was a real.
13:59.28 Kent Hits. Yes.
14:01.15 honestconman Had to jump through a lot of hoops because the the difference between what a you know what? it's worth financially versus what it's worth historically versus what it's worth to the family of the guy who had written all of this information. It's all these different types of value that that can't necessarily kind of.
14:10.49 Kent Yet.
14:21.12 honestconman Put into dollars and cents.
14:21.75 Kent Absolutely right? I know the 2 particular books that are out there in Australia that have great historical connections and I would love to get hold of. Ah, but I've had discussions with the owners and they sort of say no no, that's family book. You know I want to keep that and you just have to respect those wishes. Um, so and all you can do is sort of say well think of me if I want to dispose of the book can't come and see me.
14:45.81 honestconman E.
14:52.93 Kent But it's not the end of the world. It's you know, just 1 more thing that you didn't have before and you still don't have it so move on.
14:57.50 honestconman Yes, I was on the flip side of that my my grandfather was a ventriloquist in the Uk in the 1930 s and 40 s and he had a particular type of ventriloquist dummy that a real traditional ventriloquist dummy.
15:05.44 Kent Um.
15:14.49 honestconman But it had a latex face so you couldn't see the Joins of the jaw moving its lips moved up and down its eyebrows moved. It could smoke a cigarette. It could cry had little tear ducks so and spit water. Um, and I ah for my dad's birthday I decided to write a book.
15:16.22 Kent Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.
15:32.89 honestconman Like a family history book. My mum had written 1 about all of the women in her family called generations of women. So I wrote one for my dad called generations of dummies about the history of the book and so I started going onto ventriloquist history websites to collect all this information about this particular dummy in this particular.
15:39.59 Kent Um.
15:51.51 honestconman Company that had made the dummy and I started to get emails from all over the world from people offering me thousands of dollars for this puppet that I still have that's sitting sitting right? I can I can see the box right over there but it was it was extraordinary and it was it was.
15:52.57 Kent Um.
15:58.36 Kent Wow! Yeah, yeah, yeah.
16:09.99 honestconman The the approaches that people had were sort of people said oh I haven't got any money but I collect and you know restore them or I collect them and you know we're going to send them all to venthaven which is a museum of ventriloqui dummies and ah but people got very. They could really sort of aggressive about getting their hands on these materials.
16:28.62 Kent Yeah, people do get very close to this subject and um because I'm almost the only magic history researcher in Australia with the exception of people who are.
16:30.45 honestconman Me.
16:45.88 honestconman E.
16:46.17 Kent Doing it in slightly different areas. There's a few others self- includded over the the course of time when you're doing a state library exhibition research. Um you have to remind yourself on occasion that this is a very small niche field. And not everyone's interested. In fact, a great, many people are just not interested in what you're doing so you get all excited and you go Oh Wow I've just written this fabulous story and you know goes out online and then all you hear is you know the sound of crickets in the background. There is no no reaction. Whatever.
17:18.56 honestconman Yeah.
17:23.33 Kent But then several years down the track someone will bump across this article and go Wow you know this is the story of my great-great-grandfather or something like that and I'll get messages from them saying I've just found this article and thank you so much and it's wonderful. Um, so it. It's a. Teeny Tiny field and you don't want to overrate the importance of what you're doing but at the same time There is genuine historical value in what you're doing and eventually someone will make use of it so that it's it's it's worth the effort Of. Of putting this stuff out there.
18:02.98 honestconman So your your area. Ah your area of interest is is obviously Australian Magicians and and it doesn't seem like there is and and and mostly it seems like ah early Australian Magicians in the sense of that you don't seem to do a lot of research for I mean.
18:07.36 Kent Gift.
18:18.77 honestconman I Don't think you have a file on me in your in your collection. Um, ah okay.
18:23.23 Kent Um, know. But if if I had one of your flyers. It would be file away in a prop where I would find it. Everything's neatly stored so that I can locate what I need to the the problem is that um just being a one man band. I don't have enough time in my life to finish all my research literally I have um, over 100 magicians yet to be documented before the 100 and I'll be dead by the time. Any of that gets finished off so the prospect of going. Past 1900 or even you know coming up to the the twenty first century for me is impossible. Somebody else is going to have to take it on and I want to write stories about people who are currently working around in Australia today. There's just not the the time in life to be able to do it.
19:18.79 honestconman Yeah, oh there's There's so many it's so it as a Magician I have magicians I think like a lot of entertainers and artists like to think that we're special because it is as you said such a small field and yet.
19:36.96 Kent Um, yeah.
19:37.58 honestconman When you look oh actually there's yeah, maybe 30 or 40 professional magicians in ah so in Melbourne and they go oh actually Australia -wide there's probably a couple of thousands of them and then you start looking back in history and you realize how many people.
19:45.82 Kent Um, yeah.
19:52.10 honestconman Ah, there are who have had this job and lived this life and done these things and you realize oh Wow My my delusions of of stardom and and uniqueness become sort of dwarfed by this long history. How many magicians are there Would you say just Australian Magicians who's.
19:54.98 Kent Yeah.
20:06.80 Kent Um, are they.
20:11.34 honestconman Names were some variation of wizard of the north or wizard of the south or wizard of the East and West like even just that name seems to show up over and over again in history.
20:17.86 Kent Ah, yeah, so many so literally I have devoted one of my pages on my website to listing all of those names and there would be off the top of my head 40 or more. Um, everyone wanted to be the wizard of the north or the south or the east or the west and it became a bit of a joke over the over the years but eventually it sort of faded out it all from John Henry Anderson who called himself the wizard of the north because he came from from Scotland um.
20:42.18 honestconman Yeah.
20:53.45 Kent But yeah, it's It's just one of those typical magical sort of things. You know the the world's greatest Magician Everyone's the world's greatest magician.
21:00.81 honestconman How How do you as but as ah as a researcher separate the the facts of a Magician's life from the fiction of their marketing and performance because so many magicians will not just have a stage name but they'll have a stage persona. And that Persona will have a history and they will. You know you'll talk about they'll talk about where they're from and what they've done and who they've met and it's all lies. You know like everything from Magicians. You know the? Ah what was called at the time the oriental.
21:28.27 Kent Yeah.
21:37.70 honestconman Magic which is dressing up and pretending that you're chinese and but also just magicians saying you know, even today magicians saying they're expert gamblers or expert this or they grew up here and so on how how do you as a historian ah separate the the fact from the fiction.
21:46.90 Kent Um, yes, yes.
21:56.99 Kent You have to be very very skeptical and what I try to do is not print anything. Um, that. Isn't actually backed up by firsthand references. So if I can actually see that somebody has gone to perform in front of the shah of Persia and that was reported in the newspapers. That's good. You can go and report it if somebody says in their advertising that they've travelled all around the world to Europe and Asia and there. You sit back and go right? Well, let's go and look for the the facts because um so many magicians as you say just outright lie about what been and what they've done and occasionally um.
22:35.70 honestconman A.
22:43.58 Kent Their advertising is genuine but very often you just have to be skeptical first most of my ah research has to be through the newspapers and the yeah the digital resource that's available through the national libraries. Trove service and so there is this difference between what you read in the newspapers and the publicity stories and then sometimes you can get behind the scenes and find out the actual fact. But as you read through the newspapers you get to identify what is just a piece of publicity fluff because the newspapers will say oh you know professor fredo is coming to town and he's the world's greatest magician and you know the audiences love him. And then you see that same article in 6 or 7 different newspapers and you realise that all it is is the magician has sent his publicity piece to the paper and they've just reprinted it verbatim and that is a typical publicity ploy. But is still in use today if you send. Yeah.
23:53.81 honestconman Oh I I've done that I've I and I send ah you know when you write a media release. You have to write it so that it sounds like an article that would be published in that and often they will just publish it verbatim without any without any changes and I'm always.
24:02.64 Kent Um, yeah, yeah, they.
24:11.18 honestconman Quite shocked that that they'll do that? yeah.
24:14.36 Kent So So that's where you need to be very careful about the the stories that people are telling um and I really do occasionally I will say this is what was claimed or this is what the person said but I'll phrase it in such a way that. It indicates that you know there is no proof behind the the thing and um Magicians of course are also hiding behind pseudonyms and stage names and ah the the reality of their life is often very far divorced from.
24:32.95 honestconman E.
24:49.50 Kent Ah, the supposed glamour that they pulled out in their publicity. It's it's one of the things that interests me most to find out the real the real story behind their life. Um, because a lot of magicians were just struggling some of them were starving to death and they were trying to make ends meet and so in their publicity. It's like ah you know, major success. The audiences are you know, crowding the house every night. And then a week later there's a report that they've gone bankrupt because no, one's been coming to the shows so there is this again tension between um, the the difficulties of being a professional performer and. The the impression that you have to put out to your audience that you are the the great magician who goes from 1 success to another um, any theatrical life is a hard life and I've got so many friends who are into acting and they've done all the training. And you know and they're very open about it that 90% of their time is going to be spent chasing jobs or being unemployed. It is a difficult difficult life and and the glamour.
26:07.87 honestconman A.
26:15.60 Kent Is just the facade that magicians put on the front.
26:17.63 honestconman Oh yeah, and I mean it's difficult because that facade is necessary to an extent in that you you the a standup comedian could so could stand up and and talk about why their life is difficult and why they're struggling.
26:26.30 Kent Um, it is.
26:35.56 honestconman And get laughs and be successful and be successful as a performer as a Magician magic I guess is where we're presented as being people who are in control you know a Magician is presented as someone who knows what they're doing and has a very specific set of skills whether those skills are real.
26:38.14 Kent Um, and.
26:45.86 Kent It.
26:54.84 honestconman Like being a card sharp or whether they're imaginary like being a mind reader but the idea that the Magician isn't in control and doesn't have their shit together. So I don't know I don't know many magicians who you come away going man that guy hasn't got his shit together.
27:06.54 Kent Um, this.
27:09.61 Kent Yeah, the audience really doesn't want to know that you've got a away from the kids at home who you're desperately trying to support but the the Magicrician les levant used to travel around with his family and.
27:16.78 honestconman E.
27:28.40 Kent His his young daughter um was sitting offstage in ah in a bassonet at one stage while he was soaring his wife Gladys in a half and so Gladys is lying in this box just about to be sawn in two and esma was off in the wings crying. And the story is that Gladys was sort of whispering to les for god's sake les you know he mas in the paineette. You know, crying head off get on with it and just just do just do the bloody you get on. So but.
27:57.97 honestconman Ah, yeah, well let's let's let's talk about levant because even though you said you focus on sort of pre. Yeah Twentieth century magicians ah levant would have to be them is a twentieth century magician who.
28:12.63 Kent Um, yes.
28:13.87 honestconman You have probably researched more than anyone else would that be fair to say.
28:19.77 Kent Oh absolutely? Yeah, um I sort of leapt into my current frame of researching magicians only after I'd written the book on levant and I sort of said well okay, if I'm going to become a writer. Um, where do I start and the obvious answer was you start at the very beginning you go and find the very earliest magicians who ever came to Australia and then I've worked my way up from that. But back in the 90 s um, in fact, in the the late eighty s. I had written 1 small monograph on another magician by the name of Oscar Eliasson or Dante the great and I was just looking for another project to do so The obvious thing was write about the biggest name in Australia because les le vant the australian allusionist. Had only died in 1978 and it was clear that nobody else was going to write this story. There was just nothing happening so it was a question of you know you have to do something now while people are still alive and tell those stories. And it was the biggest mistake of my life that leser's wife and his daughter were still both alive into the 1980 s when I was sort of half considering doing this book but I was lacking in confidence you know I was her.
29:44.42 Kent Turtle novice and like how and how dare I suggest that I could go and write the the life of this great magician and so I didn't approach them to hear their stories both of them died and it was the biggest head slap I could have had it was like you idiot you know you've lost. The greatest resource that you could have ever had so then in the early 90 s I had to go and do all this research into levant and his life by talking to other people who knew him and finding sources and information. And fortunately he had written his own partial autobiography so was able to use a lot of that information. Um, but it it was just such a good story because levant started out in Australia as a small-time magician. He worked overseas became a big time magician and literally he was the last of the big illusion show the live golden age of magic style of performers before movies started to take over and he just got in. At the time when things were starting to to fade off so he he was. Australia's most successful export and the last of the big time illusionists in that respect.
31:08.65 honestconman Yeah, he seems like 1 of the last magicians to fit the stereotype of magician in the sense of when when you see a cartoon of it if you do a Google image search for magician and it comes up with ah someone with a top hat and a cape and those all that that whole image.
31:18.65 Kent Um.
31:25.84 Kent Um, yeah.
31:28.18 honestconman Um, he was one of the last magicians to really fit that stereotype and ah yeah.
31:30.70 Kent He was very much the grand. Um, you know master of magic and when he was on stage. You know we would Tug at the the sleeves of his tail coat and he would be um, he was a friendly magician. He wasn't aloof and sort of you know.
31:35.18 honestconman E.
31:50.44 Kent Trying to pretend that he was the the greatest of all time. But as you said earlier he was somebody who was in control and anything might have gone wrong never flustered him so he was very much the great levant right through to the end of his life.
31:55.96 honestconman A.
32:07.80 honestconman He was though I mean things did go wrong Fellavan I remember in your book. He somebody died during one of his was it during a it was the the um, the bullet The the human bullet I think it was called the.
32:21.37 Kent Yeah, would yes it was the case that he had a big illusion where a ah a volunteer actually from from the town that he was paying and would be put him to this giant. Um, projectile bullet case and stuffed into a giant cannon and the the face of the cannon was then wheeled up against a big plate of sheet metal and the magic illusion was that she would be fired through this plate of metal and land in a net on the other side. Um, so it wasn't the girl in the bullet who was affected but 1 day this bullet came out landed in the net and the securing hook on the net came loose and flew up and hit the head of 1 of the assistants in the show and sadly it killed her. The next day it was a complete accident but very much a disaster that knocked them around terribly much.
33:20.33 honestconman And he had a lot of those large-scale illusions I mean it was ah it was a show in which he'd felt as if levant was always feeling like he had to add lots. You know everything had to be big. Not everything had to be big but they had to be lots of big illusions. There had to be lots of people on stage. There was a sense of looking at the the history that that he wanted to have as many assistants as possible and as many props as possible and as many things as possible.
33:37.40 Kent Um, yeah.
33:48.41 honestconman Ah, to in order to to justify his his claim of being this Grand magician.
33:53.70 Kent He spent the first four years of his time when he arrived in Britain in 34 and he was touring around with a small er show which had I think something like 10 assistants but over the course of those 4 years he bought up. Um, the props of some other magicians who had died or retired and he was always building towards this big show which opened in 37 and that was the peak of his his career I guess he called the show house tricks and it was as you say full of. You know huge illusions and big big fancy showy sort of things and he would make a point of dressing the show in a way that would appeal to the the wives of the magicians who didn't really want to come along to see the magic but they would come along to see. You know a good display of costumes and something attractive to to watch. Um, it wasn't always the case that les was able to maintain that size of the show because afterwards as theater started to decline. It was just. Almost impossible to be able to tour that sort of thing around the countryside and one of the things that I love so much is the resilience of magicians in carting these tonnes of um boxes and illusions and props.
35:25.94 Kent From 1 place to another and getting them set up in the next theatre ready to do a show.
35:29.93 honestconman Yeah, it also goes to that What we're talking about before of the the reality of how hard life is offstage even for someone as successful as him and how um, ah effortless everything appears when they're on stage I also.
35:38.12 Kent Um, and.
35:46.42 honestconman Reminds me of this story they where did the ducks go that was one of his most famous tricks which was ah where did the duck go sorry where a duck would disappear on stage and and ah the it's a very funny routine that is still performed today by magicians ah, but then in your book you you reveal.
35:49.53 Kent Yeah, get.
36:02.47 Kent Um, earth.
36:05.72 honestconman Where the ducks would go ah back. So like after the show is the they would eat them right? that where the duck got too old or let it know died they would just eat the duck.
36:10.40 Kent Yeah, then. Yeah John Newman who was one of Melbourne's great theatrical personalities and has written his own book of the the story of his life. He was in ticky and John's theatre restaurant up in exhibition street for many years ah travelled around as an assistant to the levants in the 1950 s and the 50 s were a pretty tough time because that's when everything really was shutting down and turning into cinemas and yes, les invited him over for a beautiful duck dinner one night and then said oh I've got to go out and find some more ducks. Because he had just eaten the act literally.
36:57.32 honestconman The yeah, the the actor was on the show I Knowd Ah sorry, um, you hear similar stories from the the slog at family who you obviously touring at similar times but with I would say less success where. They would have props that would be eaten or destroyed or sold or yeah things things were were It was real feast and famine way to live even for the most successful magicians. Yeah, when when things started to get rough.
37:23.30 Kent Yes.
37:29.89 honestconman In in the fifty s that was when Esma his daughter started to perform her own solo act is that right.
37:36.95 Kent Yes, that's right um Esma and Col Gladys who was le's wife were the real workers behind the show Les was quite happy to let everyone do the stage set up for him and then he would put on his tails and walk out and be the great levant. But. Esmaimed latice were the the real you know, ah sellers of the costumes and make sure that the props were all correct and everything and it became obvious that esma was not going to be able to be the successor to the great lehan and take on this big illusion show. Instead she got together a number of smaller props which could be worked in cabaret and nightclubs and she was ah she was a very personable performer. Um, and she had grown literally grown up with the show being a dancer and performer and singer and magician. With with her father and so she took some smaller procs and if you can name a big important cabaret or nightclub anywhere in Europe as may would have played 1 of those. She was a very high class performer in her time. Sadly, though she was afflicted with rheumatoid arthritis which killed off her career quite quite soon after she had been performing much too early. She had to retire.
39:06.30 honestconman Um, was there much tension between Esme and les I got the impression that they weren't always on the best of terms.
39:16.41 Kent You you have to read between the lines and speaking to other members of the family. It's quite clear that. Um. When you've been touring around and you know living in digs and shifting places and having to go to school in. You know wherever you can find there is no illusion about whether or not theatrical life is glamorous or not and esma had a very clear. Knowledge that this was not the the life that she wanted her son to be involved in so I I don't think it was the case that there was sort of arguments or dislike between father and daughter. But there was this thing of I don't want my family to have to go through the tough times or to have to do the same things that I did. It's the same with circus families you more or less are expected just because you're a member of the family to to have to um. You know, share your part of the the load and eventually people just sort of get to the point where they say I don't want to do this anymore. I want to retire I want to settle down in 1 place and and live a comfortable stable life.
40:24.30 honestconman So.
40:41.16 Kent I Think that's where Esma wanted to to be. She was capable of doing all this stuff but she'd done it for long enough.
40:50.29 honestconman It's ah it's a case of running away from the circus rather than running away with the circus.
40:53.60 Kent Yeah, yeah, you've seen behind the curtains and it's not all that it's cracked up to be sometimes.
41:00.96 honestconman Yeah, um, ah Charles Sloggetts I think second wife um he had 4 wives and his second wife worked was it was an employee and then when they married she stopped getting paid um and had to do more work.
41:06.65 Kent Um.
41:16.96 honestconman Because now she was a member of the family and there's a letter in which she she wrote in I think in the in the 80 s talking about what she had to do backstage and it was everything she was the doctor she was the tailor she was the stage manager she was a performer and ah it it was ah a pretty brutal a pretty brutal life.
41:26.58 Kent Take it yet.
41:36.69 honestconman Ah, for her.
41:37.58 Kent Yeah, and the sloouts when you have look at their posters which funnily enough I'm in the process of helping Alan to sell off now that son. Yes, um.
41:46.30 honestconman Allen is Alllan is ah Charles Slog its son. Yeah.
41:53.17 Kent And I just have some of the remnants of his working posters and bills that used to get put up on the on the on the walls. But when you look at some of the town names that are there and you look them up on Google maps they are little intersections in the back of Burke somewhere.
41:56.84 honestconman E.
42:11.88 Kent Where there would have been 10 or 20 people living and slog. It will go out and put on his full evening show for them and that's that's what I find most admirable about these people that they just had the tenacity to get out and do this sort of stuff to entertain people.
42:30.70 honestconman A.
42:30.78 Kent And to make themselves a living. But yeah, the the sloits and indeed levant in his early days was that same sort of country touring performer. In fact, at one stage he drove across from Sydney to Perth right across the nullarbor plains in the 1920 s
42:38.83 honestconman E.
42:50.51 Kent Which is just something that hadn't been done before um, just because that was that was who he was no challenge seemed too much for him.
43:01.22 honestconman Yeah, there's a real just a real sense of grit and determination and a sense I think for a lot of them that they did it because there wasn't anything else. They could do I think maybe for the kids they could go and do something else. Ah, but for the for the for the fathers because they were fathers.
43:05.97 Kent Um.
43:10.75 Kent Yeah, yes.
43:18.86 honestconman This is who I am this is what I do There isn't anything else that I can do So I'm just going to keep doing this.
43:24.74 Kent Yeah, and you hear occasionally some of the backstories of some of these magicians who have taken on other roles as um publicans is is a typical thing someone will take over the role of running a hotel.
43:36.16 honestconman E.
43:43.11 Kent And it's very often that those other jobs that they take on just collapse because they don't have the skills to be doing that sort of thing. Their real talent is being up on stage doing a show but they have to make a living somehow and so not every professional Magician is.
44:00.62 honestconman Oh.
44:02.16 Kent Full time they will have another job and they will be out doing the magic shows whenever they can to to make a living.
44:09.98 honestconman Yeah, that it really hits like very close to the bone for me as ah as someone who I've never the the time I spent at the state library as the closest I've ever had to to a non performing job. Everything else has been magic and.
44:23.20 Kent Um, well.
44:27.90 honestconman Quite enjoyed it. It was quite enjoyable to go into an office and so on but I don't know whether I could do that and it's quite scary to think oh what would I do if I couldn't do this and for these guys it was that I think maybe was the driving force for a lot of them. You know there wasn't anything else so they just had to keep on grinding.
44:43.51 Kent Yeah, it it is a certain mindset that some people can cope with the fact that they have to be constantly on the look for the next job or the next opportunity or promoting themselves to do that.
44:53.85 honestconman E.
45:00.57 Kent Um, and it's been suggested to me a number of times because I'm in sort of Community theatre somebody say oh you should turn professional and and I just go couldn't couldn't handle that I like I like to have you know a steady income nowhere have a bed to sleep in every night. Um.
45:10.40 honestconman Um, yeah, we've got a lot of you've got a lot of books and posters and photo albums to buy at Auctions so you need a steady income.
45:18.80 Kent It's not mine.
45:24.46 Kent Um, yeah, that's that's right? yeah.
45:28.20 honestconman Yeah I notice most of the big collectors that I of magic seem to be people who have another job or another source of income or independently wealthy. There's there's very few ah professional magicians who are also big collectors of magic.
45:34.59 Kent Get it.
45:43.52 Kent 1 of the biggest collectors in the world who passed away just a few years ago was the the head of a bakery which ended up getting the contract to make bread rolls or bunms for Mcdonald's.
45:44.76 honestconman As it.
46:01.25 Kent And you can imagine just how much money that would have brought in so where he he had a fair bit of money to be able to play with and he put it all into collecting magic which is great for you.
46:01.83 honestconman E.
46:11.67 honestconman Yeah, I'm going back to to les levant. Ah, do you think part of the reason I mean he seems like someone who is not only an important Magician but a Magician who's relatively easy to.
46:14.21 Kent And.
46:26.73 honestconman Research because he just had so much material. There's so many you know he made books of tricks and there's posters and flyers and you know it is so much you know so many interviews and and and obviously he had those those interviews that were done where he's yeah recorded his life story as well.
46:31.16 Kent Um.
46:43.71 Kent That.
46:45.32 honestconman Do you think that? ah someone like him their their success is from being a great magician or from being a great promoter and having that ability to create all this material and get out there and and actually kind of pound the pavement because he didn't just his posters are. Quite unique I've got a but you've you've got I've got 1 right here which is literally just his face. Um the style It's like a german impressionist film. It feels like something from you know that that kind of era. It's very very diff. Yeah.
47:09.70 Kent Um, is.
47:19.78 Kent It's very chat green. Yes, it's actually been used as the cover of my book as well when my publisher put that out. Um, yes, there there There certainly is that image that you have to get out and sell. But.
47:26.47 honestconman Um, yeah.
47:36.85 Kent Le's real place in history is because of his personality um, offstage in a lot of ways he was such a sociable person that he got to know everybody in the business and everybody got to know him. Ah, he was eternally helpful. He never looked down on you know the the lowliest amateur magician he'd be prepared to sit and have a talk with and particularly in Britain his name is ah so highly regarded just as somebody who was. A participant and somebody who would contribute to to magic all the time so it wasn't only for his personality on stage it was that the the fact of who he was. He was a person who loved to sit and have a talk with other people and and swap stories. Um, and to you know, just just be that person who was out learning about everything that was around him.
48:42.43 honestconman So it was the the type of person who's part of the magic community as well as being ah as well as being a good magician as well.
48:51.74 Kent Yes, I mean you, you will know some stories of very famous magicians and big time collectors who have a reputation for being cranky comudgeons who don't want to talk to you to anyone and I won't. Ah, won't name names. But I'm sure you know exactly who I'm talking about les was the direct opposite of that he was somebody who absolutely loved to socialise and our common friend Steve Walker from from Australia was that sort of person. Um.
49:22.47 honestconman Yes.
49:27.55 Kent His friends would go in on his tail coat because he was the one who broke the ice and made friends with everybody and you you could sort of ride his tail coat. Um and get to meet all these wonderful magicians based on him breaking the ice The funny thing is that back to going back to research in the world of magic. It doesn't matter. Um who you are I mean I'm I'm just a guy I'm just a person sitting at home doing my own research but I've in the last few weeks had. Email conversations with some of the biggest collectors historians and magic creators people who have designed magic for the biggest Broadway shows and those people ah quite happy to talk to you. If. You've got something in common that they want to discuss. There's no oh I'm better than you. It's just you know 2 people talking and sharing information and you know I'm sitting here sort of fangirling going. Oh my god I'm speaking to XYZ.
50:41.31 honestconman Um e.
50:43.50 Kent And it's wonderful. You you make that entry to speak to some of the greatest experts and the cleverest people in the world just by the little things that you're doing.
50:53.56 honestconman I Think that that is something that I really love about Magic in general is that if you can do a double lift or you know you like if you know ah you know if you got a good ambitious card routine or know what a French drop is you've got a friend.
51:05.13 Kent Um, and.
51:11.33 Kent Um, yeah.
51:11.72 honestconman You know you've got like I wait you it's like ah this sort of lovely little secret handshake that that opens doors and connects you with people from all over the world and it feels like the collect. Yeah, and and I guess also with the collecting It's even though you are telling the stories of magicians you do end up telling a story of.
51:20.42 Kent Exactly yeah.
51:30.94 honestconman Ah, the story of Australia the story. You know the the the what was the ah the story of these small country towns. The stories of of the ordinary people's lives but through this quite extraordinary life.
51:43.57 Kent For for myself because I'm doing this principally for myself to start with and and then just sharing it out I have learned so much about all aspects of Australia I mean the history of the colonization of Australia. Um, people who came out from Britain how they got here the sailing ships the colonial system where you had to go and apply to the colonial secretary for permission to perform and that meant writing letters to apply for permission to do a show in Tasmania. So somewhere there um all sorts of social history and you start off researching magic but the the reach goes into all sorts of different areas I've just been looking at. Waxworks and um triloquists and the history of the criteria in theatre in Sydney. It's just astonishing how wide your own knowledge gets to be so just by researching magic you're teaching yourself about the entire history of Australia.
52:40.00 honestconman Ah, yeah.
52:57.33 Kent Political and social and everything and it's It's great inside. My head is ah is a little wonderland. But um, you can't share that with everyone.
53:08.97 honestconman No, but if people do want to check out some of what you've done because there is so much your website is sydneymagi dot net that would be the best 1 to go to? Um, there is you've got obviously you've got a whole a whole lot of information on the great levant.
53:16.44 Kent Um, yes, yes.
53:25.78 honestconman On Dte the great on Oscar Ellison as well as just so many other australian and and ah australian magicians there are photographs and so many extraordinary and resources that people can spend hours and hours going through. So I've and what.
53:41.59 Kent And more to come quite live that long.
53:45.60 honestconman Yeah I I spent so much time on your website over the years I went you know before I was with the state library I was on there all the time looking and then when I was at the state library particularly when because we were going to feature levant in the exhibition that we were putting together a lot of time on the levant page of magic in Sydney.
53:56.86 Kent Or yeah.
54:03.24 honestconman Looking at all your extraordinary research I might put in the show notes for this. Ah I'll put obviously a link to your website in the show notes for this episode but also maybe make a little page on my own website just with some of the people we've talked about and some of the posters and images of levant and.
54:09.30 Kent Are.
54:19.40 Kent Um, and.
54:21.24 honestconman Dante and and and slog it and so on just so people can get ah just a taste of the the history that we're that we're talking about. Thank you so much for coming on scamapalooza. Awesome! Okay, don't go anywhere hang on I have to press stop.
54:26.75 Kent Um, great. Yeah, you're most welcome good to speak to Nicholas.
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