INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where
INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child protection
INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation.
INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and
INTRO: share good practice on how we can all work together
INTRO: to keep babies, children and young people safe.
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Welcome to the NSPCC Learning
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Podcast. Earlier this year, the
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): UK government published its
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): vision for the reform of children's
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): social care in England: 'Stable
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): home, built on love.
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): This is the first in a two-part
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): podcast series, recorded in
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): July 2023, looking at the
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): 'Stable homes, built on love'
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): strategy, its recommendations
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): and how these might be implemented,
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): and what potential changes
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): might mean for social care professionals
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): and the children they work with.
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): The independent review of Children's
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Social Care in England, which published
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): its final report in May 2022,
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): was a cornerstone of the government's
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): strategy. The review was
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): chaired by Josh MacAlister and
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): aimed to produce recommendations
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): for a social care system that
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): provides intensive help to
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): families in crisis, puts
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): lifelong, loving relationships
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): at the heart of the care system
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): and acts decisively in response
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): to abuse. The NSPCC's Associate
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Head of Policy and Public Affairs, Abigail
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Gill, sat down with Josh to
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): talk about the review's findings.
ABIGAIL GILL: Thank you so much for being here, Josh.
ABIGAIL GILL: This feels like a particularly timely
ABIGAIL GILL: discussion as this week on the 26th of
ABIGAIL GILL: July, the government has announced the pilot
ABIGAIL GILL: of the Family's First for Children
ABIGAIL GILL: Pathfinders programme, which are those
ABIGAIL GILL: local authorities who will test reforms.
ABIGAIL GILL: And that feels like a really long time
ABIGAIL GILL: coming, but brilliant to see some of the
ABIGAIL GILL: recommendations that you set out in the
ABIGAIL GILL: review coming to fruition.
ABIGAIL GILL: But before we get onto that, it would be
ABIGAIL GILL: great if we could go back to the beginning a
ABIGAIL GILL: little bit just to remind listeners about the
ABIGAIL GILL: review itself and where it came from.
ABIGAIL GILL: The care review was heralded as a once in a
ABIGAIL GILL: generation opportunity to reset children's
ABIGAIL GILL: social care, and it was originally announced
ABIGAIL GILL: in the Conservative Party manifesto back in
ABIGAIL GILL: 2019, and it was something that the sector
ABIGAIL GILL: had been calling for for a really long time.
ABIGAIL GILL: So that must have felt like a pretty huge
ABIGAIL GILL: responsibility when you were appointed chair.
ABIGAIL GILL: Can you talk to us a little bit about how you
ABIGAIL GILL: first set out to approach the review and what
ABIGAIL GILL: you really wanted to achieve from the outset?
JOSH MACALISTER: Well, because it was such a big piece of
JOSH MACALISTER: work, my starting point was that no one
JOSH MACALISTER: person had the wisdom to be able to answer
JOSH MACALISTER: the question of how we better guarantee
JOSH MACALISTER: that the system provides safety, stability
JOSH MACALISTER: and love for children who need it.
JOSH MACALISTER: And so the process
JOSH MACALISTER: within the time limits that we had — so it
JOSH MACALISTER: was about 15 months or so that the review
JOSH MACALISTER: had to run.
JOSH MACALISTER: Because of that, we had to balance speed,
JOSH MACALISTER: but also having lots of open
JOSH MACALISTER: dialogue with people who've got direct
JOSH MACALISTER: personal experience of the care system, as
JOSH MACALISTER: young people growing up in it or as those
JOSH MACALISTER: who've left the care system but have care
JOSH MACALISTER: experience as an adult; parents
JOSH MACALISTER: who are often just as marginalised from
JOSH MACALISTER: the system as those young people
JOSH MACALISTER: themselves that rely on it; wider family
JOSH MACALISTER: networks, so kinship carers, whether that
JOSH MACALISTER: be grandparents or aunts or uncles, foster
JOSH MACALISTER: carers; and then practitioners who work in
JOSH MACALISTER: the system as well. And wanted to leave
JOSH MACALISTER: space for people to tell us what the
JOSH MACALISTER: themes of the problems would be, with all
JOSH MACALISTER: of the inherent contradictions of what
JOSH MACALISTER: some of those messages might be.
JOSH MACALISTER: You know, some of them don't fit neatly
JOSH MACALISTER: together. But to get that really messy
JOSH MACALISTER: picture, that rich, messy picture of
JOSH MACALISTER: how we're doing children's social care at
JOSH MACALISTER: the moment in England and what needs to
JOSH MACALISTER: change, and then what some of the
JOSH MACALISTER: solutions might be.
JOSH MACALISTER: So it was unusual in a sense that we
JOSH MACALISTER: started the review with a call for advice
JOSH MACALISTER: rather than a call for evidence.
JOSH MACALISTER: We then did the call for evidence.
JOSH MACALISTER: We then published within the first few
JOSH MACALISTER: months a document that set out what we'd
JOSH MACALISTER: heard about the issues and problems in the
JOSH MACALISTER: system. And we asked for feedback on that
JOSH MACALISTER: and we published the summary of that
JOSH MACALISTER: feedback.
JOSH MACALISTER: And then we did a call for ideas where we
JOSH MACALISTER: asked people to come forward and offer
JOSH MACALISTER: solutions. And in between all of that, we
JOSH MACALISTER: spoke to thousands of people who've got
JOSH MACALISTER: direct experience, did hundreds of visits.
JOSH MACALISTER: We commissioned some
JOSH MACALISTER: research and rapid reviews of evidence,
JOSH MACALISTER: and we commissioned some standalone bit of
JOSH MACALISTER: analysis on the costs, the financial
JOSH MACALISTER: costs of the system and the consequences
JOSH MACALISTER: of poor outcomes.
JOSH MACALISTER: So a huge amount of work was done within a
JOSH MACALISTER: relatively short space of time to try to
JOSH MACALISTER: find some sound recommendations
JOSH MACALISTER: that set out together would give us a
JOSH MACALISTER: chance to reset children's social care in
JOSH MACALISTER: England.
ABIGAIL GILL: And why was it such a landmark review at that
ABIGAIL GILL: time. Why was it so urgent that we needed
ABIGAIL GILL: reform then? And actually, you may want to
ABIGAIL GILL: reflect on where we are now as well and the
ABIGAIL GILL: context we're approaching reform in now as
ABIGAIL GILL: well.
JOSH MACALISTER: There are some trendlines that have been
JOSH MACALISTER: there for a number of years, for decades
JOSH MACALISTER: actually. One being the total number
JOSH MACALISTER: of children growing up in care at any one
JOSH MACALISTER: time has gone up and up, to the point
JOSH MACALISTER: where we're now north of 80,000 children
JOSH MACALISTER: in England in care at any one time.
JOSH MACALISTER: The costs of the system have gone up
JOSH MACALISTER: and up, the total costs of children's
JOSH MACALISTER: social care. And something within that,
JOSH MACALISTER: the biggest story within that's happened,
JOSH MACALISTER: is the shift from spending on services
JOSH MACALISTER: to help families that have got real
JOSH MACALISTER: challenges where some help could
JOSH MACALISTER: make the family home environment safer for
JOSH MACALISTER: children and actually improve the quality
JOSH MACALISTER: of life for the whole family.
JOSH MACALISTER: Spending on that has gone down
JOSH MACALISTER: dramatically, and that's happened at the
JOSH MACALISTER: same time as spending on care has gone up.
JOSH MACALISTER: So there is real financial pressures and
JOSH MACALISTER: that cycle
JOSH MACALISTER: that we're in, of spending more on late
JOSH MACALISTER: intervention crisis costs, is
JOSH MACALISTER: at the expense of earlier effective
JOSH MACALISTER: intervention for families.
JOSH MACALISTER: And then something else, which I think
JOSH MACALISTER: there is greater public awareness of now,
JOSH MACALISTER: and hopefully greater awareness of with
JOSH MACALISTER: policymakers, which is all of this stuff
JOSH MACALISTER: we call children social care, you know,
JOSH MACALISTER: families that are struggling to raise
JOSH MACALISTER: their kids in conditions of adversity,
JOSH MACALISTER: child protection, where children are at
JOSH MACALISTER: risk of significant harm, and then
JOSH MACALISTER: children needing to live either with wider
JOSH MACALISTER: family networks or in the care of the
JOSH MACALISTER: state. All of that has a direct
JOSH MACALISTER: effect on attainment in school, on how
JOSH MACALISTER: schools do, on health and how mental
JOSH MACALISTER: health services perform, on local
JOSH MACALISTER: authority, long term finances.
JOSH MACALISTER: And I think it's become more and more
JOSH MACALISTER: obvious that this hidden system is
JOSH MACALISTER: actually the glue and the fabric
JOSH MACALISTER: that's needed. And I think for those
JOSH MACALISTER: who've got care experience, the reason why
JOSH MACALISTER: so many were keen to see a review that
JOSH MACALISTER: looked at the whole system was there have
JOSH MACALISTER: been previous attempts to look at just
JOSH MACALISTER: fostering or just residential care or just
JOSH MACALISTER: the child protection system.
JOSH MACALISTER: And actually it's in the connectedness of
JOSH MACALISTER: all of these things that you can, I think,
JOSH MACALISTER: get recommendations that lead to bolder
JOSH MACALISTER: action.
ABIGAIL GILL: Thanks, Josh. I'd like to think a little bit
ABIGAIL GILL: now about the sharper end of the system so
ABIGAIL GILL: to speak, the child protection end.
ABIGAIL GILL: And obviously this review was going on
ABIGAIL GILL: alongside the work that the national panel
ABIGAIL GILL: was doing into the deaths of Arthur
ABIGAIL GILL: Labinjo-Hughes and Star Hobson.
ABIGAIL GILL: What struck you at the time as a review as
ABIGAIL GILL: the most significant concerns from a
ABIGAIL GILL: safeguarding perspective and how did that
ABIGAIL GILL: feed into your thoughts around reforming the
ABIGAIL GILL: sharp ends of the systems, Section 47
ABIGAIL GILL: and how we might bring children into the care
ABIGAIL GILL: system?
JOSH MACALISTER: My reflections on looking at the whole
JOSH MACALISTER: system whilst the national panel were
JOSH MACALISTER: doing this work on the really tragic
JOSH MACALISTER: murders of Arthur Labinjo Hughes and Star
JOSH MACALISTER: Hobson was that we've
JOSH MACALISTER: gotten ourselves into a situation where
JOSH MACALISTER: the volume of child protection
JOSH MACALISTER: activity has been vastly
JOSH MACALISTER: increasing. I mean, the number of child
JOSH MACALISTER: protection investigations we've had in
JOSH MACALISTER: England has gone up many, many fold.
JOSH MACALISTER: And my worry looking at that was
JOSH MACALISTER: that the volume of activity was being seen
JOSH MACALISTER: as a proxy for quality.
JOSH MACALISTER: You know, almost to say, well, we're doing
JOSH MACALISTER: loads more investigation. Therefore, in
JOSH MACALISTER: some ways the system's safer and that is
JOSH MACALISTER: objectively not true.
JOSH MACALISTER: My concern was actually that, perversely,
JOSH MACALISTER: having so much child protection activity
JOSH MACALISTER: investigating families was leading to us
JOSH MACALISTER: not being able to see the needles in the
JOSH MACALISTER: haystack. And actually, when you look at
JOSH MACALISTER: all of children's social care, 80 to 90%
JOSH MACALISTER: of the work that we're doing with families
JOSH MACALISTER: is not about significant harm.
JOSH MACALISTER: It's not about compelling families
JOSH MACALISTER: to change things because they're putting
JOSH MACALISTER: their children at significant harm.
JOSH MACALISTER: It is consent-based.
JOSH MACALISTER: It's about support for families in order
JOSH MACALISTER: for them to be more successful in raising
JOSH MACALISTER: their children.
JOSH MACALISTER: And we've really muddied that
JOSH MACALISTER: child welfare-led response in
JOSH MACALISTER: the child in need arena with
JOSH MACALISTER: the minority of
JOSH MACALISTER: adults — sometimes parents, sometimes
JOSH MACALISTER: members of the community — who are, either
JOSH MACALISTER: intentionally or otherwise, really
JOSH MACALISTER: harming their children or children in the
JOSH MACALISTER: community. And for those circumstances,
JOSH MACALISTER: the judgements about risk, the analysis
JOSH MACALISTER: that's required, the decision-making
JOSH MACALISTER: that comes with the power of compulsion.
JOSH MACALISTER: So that's what the child protection
JOSH MACALISTER: legislation allows.
JOSH MACALISTER: It is such that we need the most expert
JOSH MACALISTER: people doing that work and actually in the
JOSH MACALISTER: current system we often leave
JOSH MACALISTER: fairly inexperienced, fairly new
JOSH MACALISTER: practitioners with lots of families to
JOSH MACALISTER: work with, with the child protection
JOSH MACALISTER: decision-making. And I think as the
JOSH MACALISTER: national panel reports have shown
JOSH MACALISTER: previously, when it comes to knowledge
JOSH MACALISTER: and skill on certain issues and quality
JOSH MACALISTER: of decision-making, as well as the
JOSH MACALISTER: multi-agency aspects of that, with the
JOSH MACALISTER: police and health and education, this
JOSH MACALISTER: is such that it warrants the most
JOSH MACALISTER: experienced practitioners with the time to
JOSH MACALISTER: be able to get alongside the family help
JOSH MACALISTER: services when there is a concern about
JOSH MACALISTER: significant harm.
JOSH MACALISTER: What I've set out in the review is a
JOSH MACALISTER: design of the system where we would have
JOSH MACALISTER: ideally fewer child protection
JOSH MACALISTER: investigations because we'd have a calmer
JOSH MACALISTER: system, and because of that we'd be able
JOSH MACALISTER: to put the focus, the attention and the
JOSH MACALISTER: speed into addressing significant harm
JOSH MACALISTER: when it's needed. And I say all of that
JOSH MACALISTER: with the recognition that there is no
JOSH MACALISTER: perfect system, there is no completely
JOSH MACALISTER: foolproof system, but there is one where
JOSH MACALISTER: we can have the conditions for really
JOSH MACALISTER: difficult judgements being made by the
JOSH MACALISTER: most experienced practitioners who've got
JOSH MACALISTER: the time and space to do so.
ABIGAIL GILL: We'll come onto workforce in just a second
ABIGAIL GILL: because I think that's really important to consider.
ABIGAIL GILL: But when you were kind of gathering in the
ABIGAIL GILL: evidence for the review, did you find that
ABIGAIL GILL: there were any particular groups of children
ABIGAIL GILL: or children with certain characteristics who
ABIGAIL GILL: you felt that the safeguarding system
ABIGAIL GILL: particularly isn't working for right now?
ABIGAIL GILL: Any kind of trends, I suppose?
JOSH MACALISTER: Yeah, lots. I mean, we did a
JOSH MACALISTER: specific bit of work on racial disparities
JOSH MACALISTER: within the children social care system.
JOSH MACALISTER: And there's some worrying things, really
JOSH MACALISTER: worrying things that that flagged.
JOSH MACALISTER: One of which is for black
JOSH MACALISTER: and mixed race families.
JOSH MACALISTER: They move through the system really
JOSH MACALISTER: quickly, so they often don't get access to
JOSH MACALISTER: family help and family support services
JOSH MACALISTER: and get to child protection really
JOSH MACALISTER: quite quickly.
JOSH MACALISTER: We also see the very strong contributory
JOSH MACALISTER: causal link between poverty
JOSH MACALISTER: and involvement of children's social care,
JOSH MACALISTER: particularly child protection, as well as
JOSH MACALISTER: being a concern about how
JOSH MACALISTER: we address child poverty, is also a
JOSH MACALISTER: direct challenge to the children's social
JOSH MACALISTER: care system to make sure that, you know,
JOSH MACALISTER: we're not making judgements about
JOSH MACALISTER: neglect and poverty that are confused, and
JOSH MACALISTER: being very
JOSH MACALISTER: intentional about the distinction between
JOSH MACALISTER: those two things.
ABIGAIL GILL: Thank you, Josh. That's really insightful and
ABIGAIL GILL: I think as well one of the things that has
ABIGAIL GILL: come out, particularly with the national
ABIGAIL GILL: panel, that we've reflected on a lot is that
ABIGAIL GILL: what's happening with infants, and babies and
ABIGAIL GILL: infants being particularly vulnerable as
ABIGAIL GILL: another group to
ABIGAIL GILL: abuse and neglect as well. And I know that
ABIGAIL GILL: came through quite strongly. Just to
ABIGAIL GILL: go back to the workforce point.
ABIGAIL GILL: Obviously, your review set
ABIGAIL GILL: out a number of reforms that would have
ABIGAIL GILL: pretty significant changes to the workforce,
ABIGAIL GILL: and that has been taken forward by the
ABIGAIL GILL: government with 'Stable homes, built on
ABIGAIL GILL: love': the idea of the expert child
ABIGAIL GILL: protection practitioner, which is really good
ABIGAIL GILL: to see.
ABIGAIL GILL: Can you talk to us a little bit about the
ABIGAIL GILL: challenges that professionals face in their
ABIGAIL GILL: work and how you think these reforms might
ABIGAIL GILL: address some of those challenges?
JOSH MACALISTER: Yeah. So the main messages from
JOSH MACALISTER: practitioners were that
JOSH MACALISTER: they didn't have the time to work with
JOSH MACALISTER: families in the way that they wanted.
JOSH MACALISTER: A frustration that
JOSH MACALISTER: the system didn't develop and recognise
JOSH MACALISTER: expertise.
JOSH MACALISTER: So, often, if you wanted to get on and do
JOSH MACALISTER: well in your career, it meant moving away
JOSH MACALISTER: from practice, which has been a
JOSH MACALISTER: long-standing problem and I'm definitely
JOSH MACALISTER: not the first person to highlight that.
JOSH MACALISTER: In fact, it's very, very frustrating
JOSH MACALISTER: reading previous reports and then hearing
JOSH MACALISTER: the same thing again about
JOSH MACALISTER: that. So it's not a system that privileges
JOSH MACALISTER: expertise in the way that it should.
JOSH MACALISTER: And given how challenging and difficult
JOSH MACALISTER: the work is intellectually and emotionally
JOSH MACALISTER: and then also access to resources.
JOSH MACALISTER: So, practitioners being, you know...
JOSH MACALISTER: Even if they did have the time, even if
JOSH MACALISTER: they were recognised for their expertise
JOSH MACALISTER: and they were surrounded by colleagues who
JOSH MACALISTER: were able to stay for a long time and know
JOSH MACALISTER: the families really well and know the service
JOSH MACALISTER: really well, if they know that the
JOSH MACALISTER: family could benefit from a particular
JOSH MACALISTER: intervention or service and then that
JOSH MACALISTER: service isn't there, that can feel just as
JOSH MACALISTER: frustrating. And so, those were the
JOSH MACALISTER: main... They were the main issues.
JOSH MACALISTER: And, in responding to those, the reason
JOSH MACALISTER: why the review's gone for pushing
JOSH MACALISTER: through its recommendations on major
JOSH MACALISTER: changes to family help is in
JOSH MACALISTER: part because we want to see more
JOSH MACALISTER: practitioners freed up to be spending much
JOSH MACALISTER: more time in multidisciplinary teams
JOSH MACALISTER: where they've got the drug and alcohol
JOSH MACALISTER: worker, the domestic abuse worker, the
JOSH MACALISTER: clinical psychologist.
JOSH MACALISTER: That the people that they are in a team
JOSH MACALISTER: with, being able as a team to
JOSH MACALISTER: provide the direct services and support to
JOSH MACALISTER: families rather than referring out,
JOSH MACALISTER: referring to services with waiting lists,
JOSH MACALISTER: or finding there is no service there, and
JOSH MACALISTER: then pushing the family down a route of a
JOSH MACALISTER: parenting programme because it's the only
JOSH MACALISTER: thing on offer. And we heard lots of
JOSH MACALISTER: stories from families about that.
ABIGAIL GILL: I suppose at the heart of a lot of this is
ABIGAIL GILL: the importance of that multi-agency working,
ABIGAIL GILL: which isn't a new phenomenon.
ABIGAIL GILL: It's something we've been calling for for a
ABIGAIL GILL: long time. Some local authorities already do
ABIGAIL GILL: it and do it very well.
ABIGAIL GILL: There are different models of it.
ABIGAIL GILL: What do you think has been the key
ABIGAIL GILL: barriers actually holding that back until
ABIGAIL GILL: now? Because obviously there must be
ABIGAIL GILL: something if some areas are able to do it
ABIGAIL GILL: well but others aren't.
ABIGAIL GILL: What do you think could really unblock that
ABIGAIL GILL: and could it be stronger national
ABIGAIL GILL: leadership as well? Because I think, from the
ABIGAIL GILL: NSPCC's perspective, what we're quite
ABIGAIL GILL: interested in is, you know, this is
ABIGAIL GILL: cross-departmental, this is cross-government
ABIGAIL GILL: and cross-departmental working needs to
ABIGAIL GILL: filter down at all levels of the system: at
ABIGAIL GILL: the national government down to the local
ABIGAIL GILL: authority level.
ABIGAIL GILL: And that's maybe not quite happening now.
ABIGAIL GILL: It's one thing to tell local authorities to
ABIGAIL GILL: work in that way, but if national government
ABIGAIL GILL: aren't that feels a little bit disjointed.
ABIGAIL GILL: So I'd be interested in your reflections on
ABIGAIL GILL: that.
JOSH MACALISTER: I think the biggest barriers to this, I
JOSH MACALISTER: mean, it's a locally-led system, right?
JOSH MACALISTER: So you need to create the conditions
JOSH MACALISTER: for local leaders to lead the system.
JOSH MACALISTER: And what we see, both through the work
JOSH MACALISTER: I did on this review but also Alan Wood's
JOSH MACALISTER: work on safeguarding partnerships, is
JOSH MACALISTER: that the senior local authority
JOSH MACALISTER: executive officer and health
JOSH MACALISTER: officer and police officer
JOSH MACALISTER: are not routinely agreeing
JOSH MACALISTER: how to spend money together, how to share
JOSH MACALISTER: information together and how to delegate
JOSH MACALISTER: work together.
JOSH MACALISTER: If you start from the family point of view
JOSH MACALISTER: — when it comes to multi-agency work,
JOSH MACALISTER: particularly on child protection, from the
JOSH MACALISTER: child or family point of view — and work
JOSH MACALISTER: your way back into the system, what
JOSH MACALISTER: practitioners would say is that it's
JOSH MACALISTER: really hard to get collaboration at the
JOSH MACALISTER: practitioner level on data and resources
JOSH MACALISTER: and joint decision-making and alignment
JOSH MACALISTER: around risk and harm.
JOSH MACALISTER: And the reason it's hard to do that is
JOSH MACALISTER: because those bigger decisions around
JOSH MACALISTER: alignment have not been made by
JOSH MACALISTER: the senior folk.
JOSH MACALISTER: And in my view, every safeguarding
JOSH MACALISTER: partnership should have to publish every
JOSH MACALISTER: year the money they're spending together,
JOSH MACALISTER: the information sharing agreements that
JOSH MACALISTER: they have jointly signed and are in place,
JOSH MACALISTER: and the delegation that they
JOSH MACALISTER: have made to the operational leaders,
JOSH MACALISTER: so that they can create multi-agency teams
JOSH MACALISTER: to do child protection work.
JOSH MACALISTER: Now, Ofsted, the DfE, any
JOSH MACALISTER: agency or body could, I think, fairly
JOSH MACALISTER: easily look at that paperwork once a year
JOSH MACALISTER: and stress test it to see: has every area
JOSH MACALISTER: got joint information sharing agreements
JOSH MACALISTER: in place, has every area got shared
JOSH MACALISTER: budgets being created and spent together.
JOSH MACALISTER: Those are the responsibilities of the
JOSH MACALISTER: strategic leaders. And instead, we've got
JOSH MACALISTER: a vague, fluffy arrangement
JOSH MACALISTER: where we're asking people to come together
JOSH MACALISTER: and collaborate, but we're not really
JOSH MACALISTER: clear what we're asking them to collaborate
JOSH MACALISTER: on. We don't know how to test it.
JOSH MACALISTER: And the consequence is felt at the
JOSH MACALISTER: operational level, where you've got
JOSH MACALISTER: practitioners running around picking up
JOSH MACALISTER: phones, trying to get hold of people to
JOSH MACALISTER: get a piece of information that's
JOSH MACALISTER: something they should be able to get
JOSH MACALISTER: instantly, through good information
JOSH MACALISTER: sharing. They're trying to resource a plan
JOSH MACALISTER: for a family or a team
JOSH MACALISTER: so they can get the forensic expertise
JOSH MACALISTER: they need into that child protection
JOSH MACALISTER: response. And they can't because they
JOSH MACALISTER: haven't got the seniority to bang heads
JOSH MACALISTER: together. And we go round and round and
JOSH MACALISTER: round and it's hugely frustrating for
JOSH MACALISTER: people. And then we have a death and a
JOSH MACALISTER: national report that says agencies don't
JOSH MACALISTER: work well enough together.
JOSH MACALISTER: And, you know, the NSPCC and its community
JOSH MACALISTER: knows this inside out and back to front,
JOSH MACALISTER: as do people that've done previous
JOSH MACALISTER: reports. It is very frustrating that
JOSH MACALISTER: this quite dry and potentially boring,
JOSH MACALISTER: dull subject of multi-agency working
JOSH MACALISTER: doesn't get the attention it needs because
JOSH MACALISTER: it's fixable. And we basically
JOSH MACALISTER: need to force some people to make some
JOSH MACALISTER: decisions together at a very senior level
JOSH MACALISTER: and then hold them to account for doing
JOSH MACALISTER: it. That's what we need to do.
ABIGAIL GILL: There's certainly a lot riding, I think, on
ABIGAIL GILL: the refresh of 'Working together', the
ABIGAIL GILL: guidance which is out for consultation at the
ABIGAIL GILL: moment, as you say Josh.
ABIGAIL GILL: Conscious of time and we are coming to the
ABIGAIL GILL: end, but it would be great just to touch
ABIGAIL GILL: on — probably one of the central facets of
ABIGAIL GILL: the care review — family help.
ABIGAIL GILL: Obviously the review put forward a fully
ABIGAIL GILL: costed plan for family help, a new vision
ABIGAIL GILL: which was really exciting and it's great to
ABIGAIL GILL: see quite a lot of that brought forward by
ABIGAIL GILL: government in 'Stable homes, built on love'.
ABIGAIL GILL: I think one of the things that's been much
ABIGAIL GILL: discussed is the distinction between early
ABIGAIL GILL: help and family help.
ABIGAIL GILL: And obviously you had a certain remit with
ABIGAIL GILL: the care review and you had to cut your cloth
ABIGAIL GILL: in some ways.
ABIGAIL GILL: What are your reflections on how you had to
ABIGAIL GILL: distinguish between family help and early
ABIGAIL GILL: help. And even though you didn't look maybe
ABIGAIL GILL: in as much depth at early universal help and
ABIGAIL GILL: how that feeds in, you must have had to
ABIGAIL GILL: consider it as part of the broader ecosystem
ABIGAIL GILL: for children's services.
JOSH MACALISTER: Yeah, in the review, we've we've got a
JOSH MACALISTER: definition of what we mean by family help.
JOSH MACALISTER: We put a number on it as well, of the
JOSH MACALISTER: number of families that fall into that
JOSH MACALISTER: category.
JOSH MACALISTER: And we recognise that it isn't a universal
JOSH MACALISTER: service because it's providing really
JOSH MACALISTER: intensive help for families where children
JOSH MACALISTER: — and this is to quote the legislation —
JOSH MACALISTER: are at risk of not reaching a reasonable
JOSH MACALISTER: level of health and development.
JOSH MACALISTER: Now that's not the same agreement as
JOSH MACALISTER: universal or even, in
JOSH MACALISTER: some cases, broadly targeted early help
JOSH MACALISTER: provision. It does rest on that system
JOSH MACALISTER: of early help.
JOSH MACALISTER: So, of course, there's a link between the
JOSH MACALISTER: two. I guess one of the things
JOSH MACALISTER: we have done over time is we've made a
JOSH MACALISTER: system that's very complicated for
JOSH MACALISTER: families, that involves them often being
JOSH MACALISTER: referred a lot through different levels
JOSH MACALISTER: and stages of a system.
JOSH MACALISTER: And actually we spend a lot of money
JOSH MACALISTER: administering that referral system,
JOSH MACALISTER: sometimes at the cost of just providing
JOSH MACALISTER: the service.
JOSH MACALISTER: And we see this a lot in the child in need
JOSH MACALISTER: arena, where the original intention in
JOSH MACALISTER: the '89 Act was that
JOSH MACALISTER: local authorities provide a broad,
JOSH MACALISTER: flexible service in responding to families
JOSH MACALISTER: where children are at risk of not reaching
JOSH MACALISTER: a reasonable level of health and development.
JOSH MACALISTER: And we've turned that over the years into
JOSH MACALISTER: a, in my view, risk-led
JOSH MACALISTER: precursor to child protection so that
JOSH MACALISTER: families often find they get more help at
JOSH MACALISTER: the targeted early help end of the system
JOSH MACALISTER: when there's no social workers involved
JOSH MACALISTER: and then risks escalate and they get a
JOSH MACALISTER: child in need plan and then the support
JOSH MACALISTER: drops off. Risks then escalate, problems
JOSH MACALISTER: escalate, and then they end up in the child
JOSH MACALISTER: protection system. And having then had
JOSH MACALISTER: three different teams, three different
JOSH MACALISTER: referrals, three different assessments.
JOSH MACALISTER: And so the recommendation was to try and
JOSH MACALISTER: simplify that and say, look, if families
JOSH MACALISTER: require an intensive level of help and
JOSH MACALISTER: support in order for their child to reach
JOSH MACALISTER: a reasonable level of health and development,
JOSH MACALISTER: that should be a multi-disciplinary social
JOSH MACALISTER: work-led service that has got
JOSH MACALISTER: significantly larger sums of money being
JOSH MACALISTER: spent on it.
JOSH MACALISTER: And we projected savings that that
JOSH MACALISTER: would create, off the back of existing
JOSH MACALISTER: interventions and models that have reduced
JOSH MACALISTER: the number of children needing to go into
JOSH MACALISTER: care. So it's a pretty watertight
JOSH MACALISTER: business case that we set out.
JOSH MACALISTER: And I said that over four years we need to
JOSH MACALISTER: ramp up spending by £2 billion, and
JOSH MACALISTER: that would shift, you know, turn the tide
JOSH MACALISTER: in terms of where money is spent in the
JOSH MACALISTER: system. It would mean families get a much
JOSH MACALISTER: quicker, more human and
JOSH MACALISTER: dignified response from services.
JOSH MACALISTER: And, crucially, children would be able to
JOSH MACALISTER: live together happily and successfully
JOSH MACALISTER: with their families. But all of that is
JOSH MACALISTER: built on a wider system
JOSH MACALISTER: of support from schools, from health
JOSH MACALISTER: visitors, from early years settings.
JOSH MACALISTER: And of course, there are links to that, but
JOSH MACALISTER: it is a distinctive system.
JOSH MACALISTER: One of the things I've noticed is since
JOSH MACALISTER: the review was published, there are
JOSH MACALISTER: conversations about family help and
JOSH MACALISTER: family hubs and early help and we
JOSH MACALISTER: need to be careful not to conflate and
JOSH MACALISTER: confuse those concepts and ideas because
JOSH MACALISTER: they are distinct. And the review tried
JOSH MACALISTER: very, very hard to be precise in its
JOSH MACALISTER: language.
ABIGAIL GILL: That's helpful. And that's helpful, actually,
ABIGAIL GILL: food for thought for those of us that are
ABIGAIL GILL: working on that at the moment.
ABIGAIL GILL: You touch just on the the costing
ABIGAIL GILL: of the care review.
ABIGAIL GILL: And, from a policy perspective, the NSPCC has
ABIGAIL GILL: raised concerns about the cost of reform
ABIGAIL GILL: and the delays to it, and also the pace,
ABIGAIL GILL: despite the fact that, as you say, the review
ABIGAIL GILL: sets out a fully costed implementation plan
ABIGAIL GILL: which could have been actioned pretty much
ABIGAIL GILL: immediately.
ABIGAIL GILL: And now we are more than a year on, the
ABIGAIL GILL: Government has only just announced the first
ABIGAIL GILL: Pathfinder local authorities and we published
ABIGAIL GILL: economic analysis which shows that the cost
ABIGAIL GILL: of delaying reform by just the two-year
ABIGAIL GILL: Pathfinder period will cost the taxpayer an
ABIGAIL GILL: extra £1 billion.
ABIGAIL GILL: So, we're hopeful that reform is coming
ABIGAIL GILL: but it has been slow.
ABIGAIL GILL: What are your personal reflections, just to
ABIGAIL GILL: finish, on how the Government has taken the
ABIGAIL GILL: review forward and I guess what are your
ABIGAIL GILL: hopes for the future?
JOSH MACALISTER: I think there are lots of
JOSH MACALISTER: areas of public services where we've got
JOSH MACALISTER: this problem of, if we're being really
JOSH MACALISTER: honest with ourselves, we can see that if
JOSH MACALISTER: we don't change course things will get
JOSH MACALISTER: more expensive. And whether that's adult
JOSH MACALISTER: social care, the NHS, some forms of
JOSH MACALISTER: school support, definitely children's
JOSH MACALISTER: social care — they're on these
JOSH MACALISTER: trajectories where the outcomes are
JOSH MACALISTER: probably going to get worse and the costs
JOSH MACALISTER: are probably going to go up.
JOSH MACALISTER: So the fiscally responsible thing to do
JOSH MACALISTER: is to frontload some of the spend
JOSH MACALISTER: that we will end up paying anyway
JOSH MACALISTER: on a reform programme that flips the
JOSH MACALISTER: balance, the long term balance of the
JOSH MACALISTER: system, and improves outcomes.
JOSH MACALISTER: The wider benefits of this are just so
JOSH MACALISTER: clear. Every year, the costs of
JOSH MACALISTER: poor outcomes from children's social care,
JOSH MACALISTER: the costs of poor outcomes for children
JOSH MACALISTER: and their families, is well over £20
JOSH MACALISTER: billion a year.
JOSH MACALISTER: We're spending money on that too.
JOSH MACALISTER: So, the economic financial case for this
JOSH MACALISTER: is only getting stronger.
JOSH MACALISTER: I know the NSPCC are there, I'm there,
JOSH MACALISTER: lots of other organisations and advocates
JOSH MACALISTER: are as well, saying, you know, we're not
JOSH MACALISTER: going to let up on this. Government are
JOSH MACALISTER: going in the right direction.
JOSH MACALISTER: They need to go further. They need to go
JOSH MACALISTER: faster.
JOSH MACALISTER: And we're not going to let up because too
JOSH MACALISTER: many people's lives are on the line and
JOSH MACALISTER: the consequence of inaction is a social,
JOSH MACALISTER: moral and economic urgency.
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