Audioboom

{"flashNotices":[],"request_id":"65921fb0f26e00da9c8badfe9dbff02b"}

Transcript for What’s next for children’s social care in England? An interview with Josh MacAlister

00:00:03,120 → 00:00:06,089

INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where

00:00:06,090 → 00:00:09,029

INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child protection

00:00:09,030 → 00:00:12,299

INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation.

00:00:12,300 → 00:00:15,359

INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and

00:00:15,360 → 00:00:18,539

INTRO: share good practice on how we can all work together

00:00:18,540 → 00:00:21,269

INTRO: to keep babies, children and young people safe.

00:00:24,430 → 00:00:26,139

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Welcome to the NSPCC Learning

00:00:26,140 → 00:00:28,269

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Podcast. Earlier this year, the

00:00:28,270 → 00:00:29,619

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): UK government published its

00:00:29,620 → 00:00:31,119

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): vision for the reform of children's

00:00:31,120 → 00:00:32,829

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): social care in England: 'Stable

00:00:32,830 → 00:00:34,749

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): home, built on love.

00:00:34,750 → 00:00:36,429

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): This is the first in a two-part

00:00:36,430 → 00:00:37,929

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): podcast series, recorded in

00:00:37,930 → 00:00:40,209

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): July 2023, looking at the

00:00:40,210 → 00:00:41,499

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): 'Stable homes, built on love'

00:00:41,500 → 00:00:43,479

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): strategy, its recommendations

00:00:43,480 → 00:00:45,279

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): and how these might be implemented,

00:00:45,280 → 00:00:46,779

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): and what potential changes

00:00:46,780 → 00:00:48,549

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): might mean for social care professionals

00:00:48,550 → 00:00:50,649

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): and the children they work with.

00:00:50,650 → 00:00:51,939

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): The independent review of Children's

00:00:51,940 → 00:00:53,469

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Social Care in England, which published

00:00:53,470 → 00:00:55,719

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): its final report in May 2022,

00:00:55,720 → 00:00:57,219

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): was a cornerstone of the government's

00:00:57,220 → 00:00:59,019

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): strategy. The review was

00:00:59,020 → 00:01:00,489

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): chaired by Josh MacAlister and

00:01:00,490 → 00:01:02,289

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): aimed to produce recommendations

00:01:02,290 → 00:01:03,609

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): for a social care system that

00:01:03,610 → 00:01:04,899

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): provides intensive help to

00:01:04,900 → 00:01:06,669

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): families in crisis, puts

00:01:06,670 → 00:01:08,079

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): lifelong, loving relationships

00:01:08,080 → 00:01:09,759

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): at the heart of the care system

00:01:09,760 → 00:01:11,649

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): and acts decisively in response

00:01:11,650 → 00:01:14,139

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): to abuse. The NSPCC's Associate

00:01:14,140 → 00:01:16,419

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Head of Policy and Public Affairs, Abigail

00:01:16,420 → 00:01:18,039

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Gill, sat down with Josh to

00:01:18,040 → 00:01:19,569

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): talk about the review's findings.

00:01:24,720 → 00:01:26,549

ABIGAIL GILL: Thank you so much for being here, Josh.

00:01:26,550 → 00:01:28,529

ABIGAIL GILL: This feels like a particularly timely

00:01:28,530 → 00:01:31,809

ABIGAIL GILL: discussion as this week on the 26th of

00:01:31,810 → 00:01:34,349

ABIGAIL GILL: July, the government has announced the pilot

00:01:34,350 → 00:01:35,879

ABIGAIL GILL: of the Family's First for Children

00:01:35,880 → 00:01:38,849

ABIGAIL GILL: Pathfinders programme, which are those

00:01:38,850 → 00:01:41,159

ABIGAIL GILL: local authorities who will test reforms.

00:01:41,160 → 00:01:42,869

ABIGAIL GILL: And that feels like a really long time

00:01:42,870 → 00:01:44,879

ABIGAIL GILL: coming, but brilliant to see some of the

00:01:44,880 → 00:01:47,489

ABIGAIL GILL: recommendations that you set out in the

00:01:47,490 → 00:01:49,649

ABIGAIL GILL: review coming to fruition.

00:01:49,650 → 00:01:51,329

ABIGAIL GILL: But before we get onto that, it would be

00:01:51,330 → 00:01:53,519

ABIGAIL GILL: great if we could go back to the beginning a

00:01:53,520 → 00:01:55,949

ABIGAIL GILL: little bit just to remind listeners about the

00:01:55,950 → 00:01:58,979

ABIGAIL GILL: review itself and where it came from.

00:01:58,980 → 00:02:01,289

ABIGAIL GILL: The care review was heralded as a once in a

00:02:01,290 → 00:02:03,809

ABIGAIL GILL: generation opportunity to reset children's

00:02:03,810 → 00:02:06,239

ABIGAIL GILL: social care, and it was originally announced

00:02:06,240 → 00:02:08,459

ABIGAIL GILL: in the Conservative Party manifesto back in

00:02:08,460 → 00:02:11,609

ABIGAIL GILL: 2019, and it was something that the sector

00:02:11,610 → 00:02:14,189

ABIGAIL GILL: had been calling for for a really long time.

00:02:14,190 → 00:02:16,589

ABIGAIL GILL: So that must have felt like a pretty huge

00:02:16,590 → 00:02:19,589

ABIGAIL GILL: responsibility when you were appointed chair.

00:02:19,590 → 00:02:21,389

ABIGAIL GILL: Can you talk to us a little bit about how you

00:02:21,390 → 00:02:24,089

ABIGAIL GILL: first set out to approach the review and what

00:02:24,090 → 00:02:26,939

ABIGAIL GILL: you really wanted to achieve from the outset?

00:02:26,940 → 00:02:29,249

JOSH MACALISTER: Well, because it was such a big piece of

00:02:29,250 → 00:02:31,799

JOSH MACALISTER: work, my starting point was that no one

00:02:31,800 → 00:02:34,889

JOSH MACALISTER: person had the wisdom to be able to answer

00:02:34,890 → 00:02:37,319

JOSH MACALISTER: the question of how we better guarantee

00:02:37,320 → 00:02:39,899

JOSH MACALISTER: that the system provides safety, stability

00:02:39,900 → 00:02:42,389

JOSH MACALISTER: and love for children who need it.

00:02:42,390 → 00:02:45,569

JOSH MACALISTER: And so the process

00:02:45,570 → 00:02:47,309

JOSH MACALISTER: within the time limits that we had — so it

00:02:47,310 → 00:02:49,499

JOSH MACALISTER: was about 15 months or so that the review

00:02:49,500 → 00:02:50,879

JOSH MACALISTER: had to run.

00:02:50,880 → 00:02:53,759

JOSH MACALISTER: Because of that, we had to balance speed,

00:02:53,760 → 00:02:56,939

JOSH MACALISTER: but also having lots of open

00:02:56,940 → 00:02:59,519

JOSH MACALISTER: dialogue with people who've got direct

00:02:59,520 → 00:03:01,949

JOSH MACALISTER: personal experience of the care system, as

00:03:01,950 → 00:03:03,989

JOSH MACALISTER: young people growing up in it or as those

00:03:03,990 → 00:03:06,689

JOSH MACALISTER: who've left the care system but have care

00:03:06,690 → 00:03:07,984

JOSH MACALISTER: experience as an adult; parents

00:03:09,990 → 00:03:13,049

JOSH MACALISTER: who are often just as marginalised from

00:03:13,050 → 00:03:14,519

JOSH MACALISTER: the system as those young people

00:03:14,520 → 00:03:17,279

JOSH MACALISTER: themselves that rely on it; wider family

00:03:17,280 → 00:03:18,989

JOSH MACALISTER: networks, so kinship carers, whether that

00:03:18,990 → 00:03:21,269

JOSH MACALISTER: be grandparents or aunts or uncles, foster

00:03:21,270 → 00:03:23,609

JOSH MACALISTER: carers; and then practitioners who work in

00:03:23,610 → 00:03:26,339

JOSH MACALISTER: the system as well. And wanted to leave

00:03:26,340 → 00:03:29,279

JOSH MACALISTER: space for people to tell us what the

00:03:29,280 → 00:03:31,529

JOSH MACALISTER: themes of the problems would be, with all

00:03:31,530 → 00:03:33,989

JOSH MACALISTER: of the inherent contradictions of what

00:03:33,990 → 00:03:36,239

JOSH MACALISTER: some of those messages might be.

00:03:36,240 → 00:03:39,149

JOSH MACALISTER: You know, some of them don't fit neatly

00:03:39,150 → 00:03:41,249

JOSH MACALISTER: together. But to get that really messy

00:03:41,250 → 00:03:44,789

JOSH MACALISTER: picture, that rich, messy picture of

00:03:44,790 → 00:03:46,229

JOSH MACALISTER: how we're doing children's social care at

00:03:46,230 → 00:03:48,599

JOSH MACALISTER: the moment in England and what needs to

00:03:48,600 → 00:03:50,519

JOSH MACALISTER: change, and then what some of the

00:03:50,520 → 00:03:51,809

JOSH MACALISTER: solutions might be.

00:03:51,810 → 00:03:53,729

JOSH MACALISTER: So it was unusual in a sense that we

00:03:53,730 → 00:03:56,279

JOSH MACALISTER: started the review with a call for advice

00:03:56,280 → 00:03:58,199

JOSH MACALISTER: rather than a call for evidence.

00:03:58,200 → 00:03:59,560

JOSH MACALISTER: We then did the call for evidence.

00:04:00,620 → 00:04:03,449

JOSH MACALISTER: We then published within the first few

00:04:03,450 → 00:04:05,639

JOSH MACALISTER: months a document that set out what we'd

00:04:05,640 → 00:04:07,799

JOSH MACALISTER: heard about the issues and problems in the

00:04:07,800 → 00:04:10,409

JOSH MACALISTER: system. And we asked for feedback on that

00:04:10,410 → 00:04:12,029

JOSH MACALISTER: and we published the summary of that

00:04:12,030 → 00:04:13,349

JOSH MACALISTER: feedback.

00:04:13,350 → 00:04:16,289

JOSH MACALISTER: And then we did a call for ideas where we

00:04:16,290 → 00:04:18,659

JOSH MACALISTER: asked people to come forward and offer

00:04:18,660 → 00:04:21,809

JOSH MACALISTER: solutions. And in between all of that, we

00:04:21,810 → 00:04:23,519

JOSH MACALISTER: spoke to thousands of people who've got

00:04:23,520 → 00:04:26,249

JOSH MACALISTER: direct experience, did hundreds of visits.

00:04:26,250 → 00:04:29,219

JOSH MACALISTER: We commissioned some

00:04:29,220 → 00:04:32,579

JOSH MACALISTER: research and rapid reviews of evidence,

00:04:32,580 → 00:04:35,099

JOSH MACALISTER: and we commissioned some standalone bit of

00:04:35,100 → 00:04:38,159

JOSH MACALISTER: analysis on the costs, the financial

00:04:38,160 → 00:04:40,979

JOSH MACALISTER: costs of the system and the consequences

00:04:40,980 → 00:04:42,239

JOSH MACALISTER: of poor outcomes.

00:04:42,240 → 00:04:44,369

JOSH MACALISTER: So a huge amount of work was done within a

00:04:44,370 → 00:04:47,399

JOSH MACALISTER: relatively short space of time to try to

00:04:47,400 → 00:04:50,459

JOSH MACALISTER: find some sound recommendations

00:04:50,460 → 00:04:53,369

JOSH MACALISTER: that set out together would give us a

00:04:53,370 → 00:04:55,439

JOSH MACALISTER: chance to reset children's social care in

00:04:55,440 → 00:04:56,009

JOSH MACALISTER: England.

00:04:56,010 → 00:04:59,159

ABIGAIL GILL: And why was it such a landmark review at that

00:04:59,160 → 00:05:01,979

ABIGAIL GILL: time. Why was it so urgent that we needed

00:05:01,980 → 00:05:04,469

ABIGAIL GILL: reform then? And actually, you may want to

00:05:04,470 → 00:05:07,049

ABIGAIL GILL: reflect on where we are now as well and the

00:05:07,050 → 00:05:09,929

ABIGAIL GILL: context we're approaching reform in now as

00:05:09,930 → 00:05:10,529

ABIGAIL GILL: well.

00:05:10,530 → 00:05:12,119

JOSH MACALISTER: There are some trendlines that have been

00:05:12,120 → 00:05:14,969

JOSH MACALISTER: there for a number of years, for decades

00:05:14,970 → 00:05:17,999

JOSH MACALISTER: actually. One being the total number

00:05:18,000 → 00:05:20,399

JOSH MACALISTER: of children growing up in care at any one

00:05:20,400 → 00:05:22,379

JOSH MACALISTER: time has gone up and up, to the point

00:05:22,380 → 00:05:25,229

JOSH MACALISTER: where we're now north of 80,000 children

00:05:25,230 → 00:05:28,169

JOSH MACALISTER: in England in care at any one time.

00:05:28,170 → 00:05:31,169

JOSH MACALISTER: The costs of the system have gone up

00:05:31,170 → 00:05:32,999

JOSH MACALISTER: and up, the total costs of children's

00:05:33,000 → 00:05:35,939

JOSH MACALISTER: social care. And something within that,

00:05:35,940 → 00:05:38,279

JOSH MACALISTER: the biggest story within that's happened,

00:05:38,280 → 00:05:41,729

JOSH MACALISTER: is the shift from spending on services

00:05:41,730 → 00:05:44,399

JOSH MACALISTER: to help families that have got real

00:05:44,400 → 00:05:47,459

JOSH MACALISTER: challenges where some help could

00:05:47,460 → 00:05:49,199

JOSH MACALISTER: make the family home environment safer for

00:05:49,200 → 00:05:51,509

JOSH MACALISTER: children and actually improve the quality

00:05:51,510 → 00:05:54,269

JOSH MACALISTER: of life for the whole family.

00:05:54,270 → 00:05:55,559

JOSH MACALISTER: Spending on that has gone down

00:05:55,560 → 00:05:58,139

JOSH MACALISTER: dramatically, and that's happened at the

00:05:58,140 → 00:06:00,689

JOSH MACALISTER: same time as spending on care has gone up.

00:06:01,830 → 00:06:04,799

JOSH MACALISTER: So there is real financial pressures and

00:06:04,800 → 00:06:07,949

JOSH MACALISTER: that cycle

00:06:07,950 → 00:06:10,799

JOSH MACALISTER: that we're in, of spending more on late

00:06:10,800 → 00:06:13,889

JOSH MACALISTER: intervention crisis costs, is

00:06:13,890 → 00:06:17,399

JOSH MACALISTER: at the expense of earlier effective

00:06:17,400 → 00:06:18,779

JOSH MACALISTER: intervention for families.

00:06:18,780 → 00:06:20,879

JOSH MACALISTER: And then something else, which I think

00:06:20,880 → 00:06:22,271

JOSH MACALISTER: there is greater public awareness of now,

00:06:22,272 → 00:06:25,239

JOSH MACALISTER: and hopefully greater awareness of with

00:06:25,240 → 00:06:28,139

JOSH MACALISTER: policymakers, which is all of this stuff

00:06:28,140 → 00:06:29,699

JOSH MACALISTER: we call children social care, you know,

00:06:29,700 → 00:06:31,469

JOSH MACALISTER: families that are struggling to raise

00:06:31,470 → 00:06:34,109

JOSH MACALISTER: their kids in conditions of adversity,

00:06:34,110 → 00:06:35,819

JOSH MACALISTER: child protection, where children are at

00:06:35,820 → 00:06:37,799

JOSH MACALISTER: risk of significant harm, and then

00:06:37,800 → 00:06:39,599

JOSH MACALISTER: children needing to live either with wider

00:06:39,600 → 00:06:41,459

JOSH MACALISTER: family networks or in the care of the

00:06:41,460 → 00:06:44,729

JOSH MACALISTER: state. All of that has a direct

00:06:44,730 → 00:06:47,399

JOSH MACALISTER: effect on attainment in school, on how

00:06:47,400 → 00:06:50,129

JOSH MACALISTER: schools do, on health and how mental

00:06:50,130 → 00:06:52,559

JOSH MACALISTER: health services perform, on local

00:06:52,560 → 00:06:55,259

JOSH MACALISTER: authority, long term finances.

00:06:55,260 → 00:06:56,759

JOSH MACALISTER: And I think it's become more and more

00:06:56,760 → 00:06:59,429

JOSH MACALISTER: obvious that this hidden system is

00:06:59,430 → 00:07:02,399

JOSH MACALISTER: actually the glue and the fabric

00:07:02,400 → 00:07:04,469

JOSH MACALISTER: that's needed. And I think for those

00:07:04,470 → 00:07:06,479

JOSH MACALISTER: who've got care experience, the reason why

00:07:06,480 → 00:07:09,569

JOSH MACALISTER: so many were keen to see a review that

00:07:09,570 → 00:07:11,759

JOSH MACALISTER: looked at the whole system was there have

00:07:11,760 → 00:07:13,619

JOSH MACALISTER: been previous attempts to look at just

00:07:13,620 → 00:07:15,779

JOSH MACALISTER: fostering or just residential care or just

00:07:15,780 → 00:07:17,519

JOSH MACALISTER: the child protection system.

00:07:17,520 → 00:07:19,649

JOSH MACALISTER: And actually it's in the connectedness of

00:07:19,650 → 00:07:22,079

JOSH MACALISTER: all of these things that you can, I think,

00:07:22,080 → 00:07:24,569

JOSH MACALISTER: get recommendations that lead to bolder

00:07:24,570 → 00:07:25,499

JOSH MACALISTER: action.

00:07:25,500 → 00:07:27,509

ABIGAIL GILL: Thanks, Josh. I'd like to think a little bit

00:07:27,510 → 00:07:30,599

ABIGAIL GILL: now about the sharper end of the system so

00:07:30,600 → 00:07:33,989

ABIGAIL GILL: to speak, the child protection end.

00:07:33,990 → 00:07:35,849

ABIGAIL GILL: And obviously this review was going on

00:07:35,850 → 00:07:37,859

ABIGAIL GILL: alongside the work that the national panel

00:07:37,860 → 00:07:39,151

ABIGAIL GILL: was doing into the deaths of Arthur

00:07:39,152 → 00:07:40,910

ABIGAIL GILL: Labinjo-Hughes and Star Hobson.

00:07:42,210 → 00:07:44,189

ABIGAIL GILL: What struck you at the time as a review as

00:07:44,190 → 00:07:46,529

ABIGAIL GILL: the most significant concerns from a

00:07:46,530 → 00:07:49,379

ABIGAIL GILL: safeguarding perspective and how did that

00:07:49,380 → 00:07:52,529

ABIGAIL GILL: feed into your thoughts around reforming the

00:07:52,530 → 00:07:55,859

ABIGAIL GILL: sharp ends of the systems, Section 47

00:07:55,860 → 00:07:58,229

ABIGAIL GILL: and how we might bring children into the care

00:07:58,230 → 00:07:59,189

ABIGAIL GILL: system?

00:07:59,190 → 00:08:00,689

JOSH MACALISTER: My reflections on looking at the whole

00:08:00,690 → 00:08:03,119

JOSH MACALISTER: system whilst the national panel were

00:08:03,120 → 00:08:07,109

JOSH MACALISTER: doing this work on the really tragic

00:08:07,110 → 00:08:09,659

JOSH MACALISTER: murders of Arthur Labinjo Hughes and Star

00:08:09,660 → 00:08:10,660

JOSH MACALISTER: Hobson was that we've

00:08:14,320 → 00:08:17,302

JOSH MACALISTER: gotten ourselves into a situation where

00:08:17,303 → 00:08:20,559

JOSH MACALISTER: the volume of child protection

00:08:20,560 → 00:08:23,799

JOSH MACALISTER: activity has been vastly

00:08:23,800 → 00:08:25,179

JOSH MACALISTER: increasing. I mean, the number of child

00:08:25,180 → 00:08:27,489

JOSH MACALISTER: protection investigations we've had in

00:08:27,490 → 00:08:30,389

JOSH MACALISTER: England has gone up many, many fold.

00:08:32,200 → 00:08:35,168

JOSH MACALISTER: And my worry looking at that was

00:08:35,169 → 00:08:37,418

JOSH MACALISTER: that the volume of activity was being seen

00:08:37,419 → 00:08:39,199

JOSH MACALISTER: as a proxy for quality.

00:08:39,200 → 00:08:41,109

JOSH MACALISTER: You know, almost to say, well, we're doing

00:08:41,110 → 00:08:44,019

JOSH MACALISTER: loads more investigation. Therefore, in

00:08:44,020 → 00:08:47,319

JOSH MACALISTER: some ways the system's safer and that is

00:08:47,320 → 00:08:49,359

JOSH MACALISTER: objectively not true.

00:08:49,360 → 00:08:51,124

JOSH MACALISTER: My concern was actually that, perversely,

00:08:52,690 → 00:08:55,329

JOSH MACALISTER: having so much child protection activity

00:08:55,330 → 00:08:58,359

JOSH MACALISTER: investigating families was leading to us

00:08:58,360 → 00:09:00,369

JOSH MACALISTER: not being able to see the needles in the

00:09:00,370 → 00:09:02,439

JOSH MACALISTER: haystack. And actually, when you look at

00:09:02,440 → 00:09:05,739

JOSH MACALISTER: all of children's social care, 80 to 90%

00:09:05,740 → 00:09:08,079

JOSH MACALISTER: of the work that we're doing with families

00:09:08,080 → 00:09:10,179

JOSH MACALISTER: is not about significant harm.

00:09:10,180 → 00:09:13,839

JOSH MACALISTER: It's not about compelling families

00:09:13,840 → 00:09:15,399

JOSH MACALISTER: to change things because they're putting

00:09:15,400 → 00:09:18,459

JOSH MACALISTER: their children at significant harm.

00:09:18,460 → 00:09:19,460

JOSH MACALISTER: It is consent-based.

00:09:20,350 → 00:09:23,289

JOSH MACALISTER: It's about support for families in order

00:09:23,290 → 00:09:25,119

JOSH MACALISTER: for them to be more successful in raising

00:09:25,120 → 00:09:26,409

JOSH MACALISTER: their children.

00:09:26,410 → 00:09:28,899

JOSH MACALISTER: And we've really muddied that

00:09:29,950 → 00:09:32,949

JOSH MACALISTER: child welfare-led response in

00:09:32,950 → 00:09:36,549

JOSH MACALISTER: the child in need arena with

00:09:36,550 → 00:09:39,789

JOSH MACALISTER: the minority of

00:09:39,790 → 00:09:42,489

JOSH MACALISTER: adults — sometimes parents, sometimes

00:09:42,490 → 00:09:45,219

JOSH MACALISTER: members of the community — who are, either

00:09:45,220 → 00:09:48,309

JOSH MACALISTER: intentionally or otherwise, really

00:09:48,310 → 00:09:50,829

JOSH MACALISTER: harming their children or children in the

00:09:50,830 → 00:09:55,449

JOSH MACALISTER: community. And for those circumstances,

00:09:55,450 → 00:09:57,609

JOSH MACALISTER: the judgements about risk, the analysis

00:09:57,610 → 00:10:00,669

JOSH MACALISTER: that's required, the decision-making

00:10:00,670 → 00:10:03,919

JOSH MACALISTER: that comes with the power of compulsion.

00:10:03,920 → 00:10:05,529

JOSH MACALISTER: So that's what the child protection

00:10:05,530 → 00:10:07,299

JOSH MACALISTER: legislation allows.

00:10:07,300 → 00:10:10,059

JOSH MACALISTER: It is such that we need the most expert

00:10:10,060 → 00:10:12,729

JOSH MACALISTER: people doing that work and actually in the

00:10:12,730 → 00:10:15,699

JOSH MACALISTER: current system we often leave

00:10:15,700 → 00:10:18,339

JOSH MACALISTER: fairly inexperienced, fairly new

00:10:18,340 → 00:10:20,619

JOSH MACALISTER: practitioners with lots of families to

00:10:20,620 → 00:10:22,869

JOSH MACALISTER: work with, with the child protection

00:10:22,870 → 00:10:25,449

JOSH MACALISTER: decision-making. And I think as the

00:10:25,450 → 00:10:27,879

JOSH MACALISTER: national panel reports have shown

00:10:27,880 → 00:10:31,029

JOSH MACALISTER: previously, when it comes to knowledge

00:10:31,030 → 00:10:34,269

JOSH MACALISTER: and skill on certain issues and quality

00:10:34,270 → 00:10:35,679

JOSH MACALISTER: of decision-making, as well as the

00:10:35,680 → 00:10:37,599

JOSH MACALISTER: multi-agency aspects of that, with the

00:10:37,600 → 00:10:40,659

JOSH MACALISTER: police and health and education, this

00:10:40,660 → 00:10:42,849

JOSH MACALISTER: is such that it warrants the most

00:10:42,850 → 00:10:45,369

JOSH MACALISTER: experienced practitioners with the time to

00:10:45,370 → 00:10:47,199

JOSH MACALISTER: be able to get alongside the family help

00:10:47,200 → 00:10:49,869

JOSH MACALISTER: services when there is a concern about

00:10:49,870 → 00:10:51,279

JOSH MACALISTER: significant harm.

00:10:51,280 → 00:10:52,809

JOSH MACALISTER: What I've set out in the review is a

00:10:52,810 → 00:10:54,759

JOSH MACALISTER: design of the system where we would have

00:10:54,760 → 00:10:56,529

JOSH MACALISTER: ideally fewer child protection

00:10:56,530 → 00:10:58,869

JOSH MACALISTER: investigations because we'd have a calmer

00:10:58,870 → 00:11:01,809

JOSH MACALISTER: system, and because of that we'd be able

00:11:01,810 → 00:11:04,539

JOSH MACALISTER: to put the focus, the attention and the

00:11:04,540 → 00:11:07,719

JOSH MACALISTER: speed into addressing significant harm

00:11:08,740 → 00:11:10,869

JOSH MACALISTER: when it's needed. And I say all of that

00:11:10,870 → 00:11:13,239

JOSH MACALISTER: with the recognition that there is no

00:11:13,240 → 00:11:15,339

JOSH MACALISTER: perfect system, there is no completely

00:11:15,340 → 00:11:18,459

JOSH MACALISTER: foolproof system, but there is one where

00:11:18,460 → 00:11:21,039

JOSH MACALISTER: we can have the conditions for really

00:11:21,040 → 00:11:22,779

JOSH MACALISTER: difficult judgements being made by the

00:11:22,780 → 00:11:24,489

JOSH MACALISTER: most experienced practitioners who've got

00:11:24,490 → 00:11:26,259

JOSH MACALISTER: the time and space to do so.

00:11:26,260 → 00:11:28,659

ABIGAIL GILL: We'll come onto workforce in just a second

00:11:28,660 → 00:11:30,399

ABIGAIL GILL: because I think that's really important to consider.

00:11:30,400 → 00:11:32,649

ABIGAIL GILL: But when you were kind of gathering in the

00:11:32,650 → 00:11:34,779

ABIGAIL GILL: evidence for the review, did you find that

00:11:34,780 → 00:11:37,449

ABIGAIL GILL: there were any particular groups of children

00:11:37,450 → 00:11:39,339

ABIGAIL GILL: or children with certain characteristics who

00:11:39,340 → 00:11:41,709

ABIGAIL GILL: you felt that the safeguarding system

00:11:41,710 → 00:11:44,379

ABIGAIL GILL: particularly isn't working for right now?

00:11:44,380 → 00:11:46,599

ABIGAIL GILL: Any kind of trends, I suppose?

00:11:46,600 → 00:11:48,189

JOSH MACALISTER: Yeah, lots. I mean, we did a

00:11:49,780 → 00:11:52,119

JOSH MACALISTER: specific bit of work on racial disparities

00:11:52,120 → 00:11:54,609

JOSH MACALISTER: within the children social care system.

00:11:54,610 → 00:11:56,649

JOSH MACALISTER: And there's some worrying things, really

00:11:56,650 → 00:11:59,289

JOSH MACALISTER: worrying things that that flagged.

00:11:59,290 → 00:12:02,439

JOSH MACALISTER: One of which is for black

00:12:02,440 → 00:12:04,209

JOSH MACALISTER: and mixed race families.

00:12:04,210 → 00:12:05,979

JOSH MACALISTER: They move through the system really

00:12:05,980 → 00:12:08,259

JOSH MACALISTER: quickly, so they often don't get access to

00:12:08,260 → 00:12:10,749

JOSH MACALISTER: family help and family support services

00:12:10,750 → 00:12:13,899

JOSH MACALISTER: and get to child protection really

00:12:13,900 → 00:12:14,900

JOSH MACALISTER: quite quickly.

00:12:15,760 → 00:12:19,419

JOSH MACALISTER: We also see the very strong contributory

00:12:19,420 → 00:12:22,509

JOSH MACALISTER: causal link between poverty

00:12:22,510 → 00:12:25,119

JOSH MACALISTER: and involvement of children's social care,

00:12:25,120 → 00:12:27,699

JOSH MACALISTER: particularly child protection, as well as

00:12:27,700 → 00:12:30,789

JOSH MACALISTER: being a concern about how

00:12:30,790 → 00:12:34,059

JOSH MACALISTER: we address child poverty, is also a

00:12:34,060 → 00:12:37,089

JOSH MACALISTER: direct challenge to the children's social

00:12:37,090 → 00:12:39,369

JOSH MACALISTER: care system to make sure that, you know,

00:12:39,370 → 00:12:42,939

JOSH MACALISTER: we're not making judgements about

00:12:42,940 → 00:12:44,733

JOSH MACALISTER: neglect and poverty that are confused, and

00:12:44,734 → 00:12:47,680

JOSH MACALISTER: being very

00:12:48,880 → 00:12:51,609

JOSH MACALISTER: intentional about the distinction between

00:12:51,610 → 00:12:52,869

JOSH MACALISTER: those two things.

00:12:52,870 → 00:12:55,899

ABIGAIL GILL: Thank you, Josh. That's really insightful and

00:12:55,900 → 00:12:57,249

ABIGAIL GILL: I think as well one of the things that has

00:12:57,250 → 00:12:58,659

ABIGAIL GILL: come out, particularly with the national

00:12:58,660 → 00:13:01,149

ABIGAIL GILL: panel, that we've reflected on a lot is that

00:13:01,150 → 00:13:03,309

ABIGAIL GILL: what's happening with infants, and babies and

00:13:03,310 → 00:13:05,109

ABIGAIL GILL: infants being particularly vulnerable as

00:13:05,110 → 00:13:08,169

ABIGAIL GILL: another group to

00:13:08,170 → 00:13:09,489

ABIGAIL GILL: abuse and neglect as well. And I know that

00:13:09,490 → 00:13:12,969

ABIGAIL GILL: came through quite strongly. Just to

00:13:12,970 → 00:13:16,959

ABIGAIL GILL: go back to the workforce point.

00:13:16,960 → 00:13:19,999

ABIGAIL GILL: Obviously, your review set

00:13:20,000 → 00:13:22,129

ABIGAIL GILL: out a number of reforms that would have

00:13:22,130 → 00:13:25,309

ABIGAIL GILL: pretty significant changes to the workforce,

00:13:25,310 → 00:13:27,439

ABIGAIL GILL: and that has been taken forward by the

00:13:27,440 → 00:13:29,089

ABIGAIL GILL: government with 'Stable homes, built on

00:13:29,090 → 00:13:31,189

ABIGAIL GILL: love': the idea of the expert child

00:13:31,190 → 00:13:34,039

ABIGAIL GILL: protection practitioner, which is really good

00:13:34,040 → 00:13:35,040

ABIGAIL GILL: to see.

00:13:35,480 → 00:13:37,429

ABIGAIL GILL: Can you talk to us a little bit about the

00:13:37,430 → 00:13:40,099

ABIGAIL GILL: challenges that professionals face in their

00:13:40,100 → 00:13:42,919

ABIGAIL GILL: work and how you think these reforms might

00:13:42,920 → 00:13:45,169

ABIGAIL GILL: address some of those challenges?

00:13:45,170 → 00:13:47,269

JOSH MACALISTER: Yeah. So the main messages from

00:13:47,270 → 00:13:48,270

JOSH MACALISTER: practitioners were that

00:13:50,970 → 00:13:53,489

JOSH MACALISTER: they didn't have the time to work with

00:13:53,490 → 00:13:55,100

JOSH MACALISTER: families in the way that they wanted.

00:13:56,280 → 00:13:58,859

JOSH MACALISTER: A frustration that

00:14:00,450 → 00:14:03,569

JOSH MACALISTER: the system didn't develop and recognise

00:14:03,570 → 00:14:04,570

JOSH MACALISTER: expertise.

00:14:05,390 → 00:14:07,399

JOSH MACALISTER: So, often, if you wanted to get on and do

00:14:07,400 → 00:14:09,859

JOSH MACALISTER: well in your career, it meant moving away

00:14:09,860 → 00:14:12,534

JOSH MACALISTER: from practice, which has been a

00:14:12,535 → 00:14:13,969

JOSH MACALISTER: long-standing problem and I'm definitely

00:14:13,970 → 00:14:15,499

JOSH MACALISTER: not the first person to highlight that.

00:14:15,500 → 00:14:17,209

JOSH MACALISTER: In fact, it's very, very frustrating

00:14:17,210 → 00:14:19,549

JOSH MACALISTER: reading previous reports and then hearing

00:14:19,550 → 00:14:22,519

JOSH MACALISTER: the same thing again about

00:14:22,520 → 00:14:25,939

JOSH MACALISTER: that. So it's not a system that privileges

00:14:25,940 → 00:14:27,579

JOSH MACALISTER: expertise in the way that it should.

00:14:27,580 → 00:14:29,629

JOSH MACALISTER: And given how challenging and difficult

00:14:29,630 → 00:14:31,759

JOSH MACALISTER: the work is intellectually and emotionally

00:14:31,760 → 00:14:34,339

JOSH MACALISTER: and then also access to resources.

00:14:34,340 → 00:14:36,649

JOSH MACALISTER: So, practitioners being, you know...

00:14:36,650 → 00:14:38,839

JOSH MACALISTER: Even if they did have the time, even if

00:14:38,840 → 00:14:40,369

JOSH MACALISTER: they were recognised for their expertise

00:14:40,370 → 00:14:42,049

JOSH MACALISTER: and they were surrounded by colleagues who

00:14:42,050 → 00:14:44,749

JOSH MACALISTER: were able to stay for a long time and know

00:14:44,750 → 00:14:46,339

JOSH MACALISTER: the families really well and know the service

00:14:46,340 → 00:14:49,369

JOSH MACALISTER: really well, if they know that the

00:14:49,370 → 00:14:50,959

JOSH MACALISTER: family could benefit from a particular

00:14:50,960 → 00:14:52,759

JOSH MACALISTER: intervention or service and then that

00:14:52,760 → 00:14:55,099

JOSH MACALISTER: service isn't there, that can feel just as

00:14:55,100 → 00:14:57,589

JOSH MACALISTER: frustrating. And so, those were the

00:14:57,590 → 00:14:59,539

JOSH MACALISTER: main... They were the main issues.

00:14:59,540 → 00:15:02,029

JOSH MACALISTER: And, in responding to those, the reason

00:15:02,030 → 00:15:05,029

JOSH MACALISTER: why the review's gone for pushing

00:15:05,030 → 00:15:06,589

JOSH MACALISTER: through its recommendations on major

00:15:06,590 → 00:15:09,589

JOSH MACALISTER: changes to family help is in

00:15:09,590 → 00:15:11,539

JOSH MACALISTER: part because we want to see more

00:15:11,540 → 00:15:13,969

JOSH MACALISTER: practitioners freed up to be spending much

00:15:13,970 → 00:15:17,119

JOSH MACALISTER: more time in multidisciplinary teams

00:15:17,120 → 00:15:18,649

JOSH MACALISTER: where they've got the drug and alcohol

00:15:18,650 → 00:15:22,699

JOSH MACALISTER: worker, the domestic abuse worker, the

00:15:22,700 → 00:15:24,439

JOSH MACALISTER: clinical psychologist.

00:15:24,440 → 00:15:26,539

JOSH MACALISTER: That the people that they are in a team

00:15:26,540 → 00:15:29,539

JOSH MACALISTER: with, being able as a team to

00:15:29,540 → 00:15:31,549

JOSH MACALISTER: provide the direct services and support to

00:15:31,550 → 00:15:34,399

JOSH MACALISTER: families rather than referring out,

00:15:34,400 → 00:15:36,889

JOSH MACALISTER: referring to services with waiting lists,

00:15:36,890 → 00:15:39,829

JOSH MACALISTER: or finding there is no service there, and

00:15:39,830 → 00:15:41,599

JOSH MACALISTER: then pushing the family down a route of a

00:15:41,600 → 00:15:43,999

JOSH MACALISTER: parenting programme because it's the only

00:15:44,000 → 00:15:45,409

JOSH MACALISTER: thing on offer. And we heard lots of

00:15:45,410 → 00:15:47,412

JOSH MACALISTER: stories from families about that.

00:15:47,413 → 00:15:49,249

ABIGAIL GILL: I suppose at the heart of a lot of this is

00:15:49,250 → 00:15:51,919

ABIGAIL GILL: the importance of that multi-agency working,

00:15:51,920 → 00:15:54,246

ABIGAIL GILL: which isn't a new phenomenon.

00:15:54,247 → 00:15:57,169

ABIGAIL GILL: It's something we've been calling for for a

00:15:57,170 → 00:15:59,479

ABIGAIL GILL: long time. Some local authorities already do

00:15:59,480 → 00:16:00,739

ABIGAIL GILL: it and do it very well.

00:16:00,740 → 00:16:02,809

ABIGAIL GILL: There are different models of it.

00:16:02,810 → 00:16:06,019

ABIGAIL GILL: What do you think has been the key

00:16:06,020 → 00:16:08,509

ABIGAIL GILL: barriers actually holding that back until

00:16:08,510 → 00:16:10,189

ABIGAIL GILL: now? Because obviously there must be

00:16:10,190 → 00:16:12,079

ABIGAIL GILL: something if some areas are able to do it

00:16:12,080 → 00:16:14,209

ABIGAIL GILL: well but others aren't.

00:16:14,210 → 00:16:16,739

ABIGAIL GILL: What do you think could really unblock that

00:16:16,740 → 00:16:19,819

ABIGAIL GILL: and could it be stronger national

00:16:19,820 → 00:16:22,459

ABIGAIL GILL: leadership as well? Because I think, from the

00:16:22,460 → 00:16:24,289

ABIGAIL GILL: NSPCC's perspective, what we're quite

00:16:24,290 → 00:16:26,629

ABIGAIL GILL: interested in is, you know, this is

00:16:26,630 → 00:16:28,879

ABIGAIL GILL: cross-departmental, this is cross-government

00:16:28,880 → 00:16:31,549

ABIGAIL GILL: and cross-departmental working needs to

00:16:31,550 → 00:16:33,739

ABIGAIL GILL: filter down at all levels of the system: at

00:16:33,740 → 00:16:35,419

ABIGAIL GILL: the national government down to the local

00:16:35,420 → 00:16:36,799

ABIGAIL GILL: authority level.

00:16:36,800 → 00:16:38,809

ABIGAIL GILL: And that's maybe not quite happening now.

00:16:38,810 → 00:16:40,729

ABIGAIL GILL: It's one thing to tell local authorities to

00:16:40,730 → 00:16:43,069

ABIGAIL GILL: work in that way, but if national government

00:16:43,070 → 00:16:45,709

ABIGAIL GILL: aren't that feels a little bit disjointed.

00:16:45,710 → 00:16:47,899

ABIGAIL GILL: So I'd be interested in your reflections on

00:16:47,900 → 00:16:48,439

ABIGAIL GILL: that.

00:16:48,440 → 00:16:50,629

JOSH MACALISTER: I think the biggest barriers to this, I

00:16:50,630 → 00:16:52,609

JOSH MACALISTER: mean, it's a locally-led system, right?

00:16:52,610 → 00:16:55,879

JOSH MACALISTER: So you need to create the conditions

00:16:55,880 → 00:16:58,909

JOSH MACALISTER: for local leaders to lead the system.

00:16:58,910 → 00:17:02,299

JOSH MACALISTER: And what we see, both through the work

00:17:02,300 → 00:17:04,338

JOSH MACALISTER: I did on this review but also Alan Wood's

00:17:04,339 → 00:17:07,399

JOSH MACALISTER: work on safeguarding partnerships, is

00:17:07,400 → 00:17:10,519

JOSH MACALISTER: that the senior local authority

00:17:10,520 → 00:17:13,489

JOSH MACALISTER: executive officer and health

00:17:13,490 → 00:17:16,519

JOSH MACALISTER: officer and police officer

00:17:16,520 → 00:17:19,519

JOSH MACALISTER: are not routinely agreeing

00:17:19,520 → 00:17:22,489

JOSH MACALISTER: how to spend money together, how to share

00:17:22,490 → 00:17:24,709

JOSH MACALISTER: information together and how to delegate

00:17:24,710 → 00:17:26,328

JOSH MACALISTER: work together.

00:17:26,329 → 00:17:28,885

JOSH MACALISTER: If you start from the family point of view

00:17:28,886 → 00:17:31,979

JOSH MACALISTER: — when it comes to multi-agency work,

00:17:31,980 → 00:17:34,099

JOSH MACALISTER: particularly on child protection, from the

00:17:34,100 → 00:17:36,259

JOSH MACALISTER: child or family point of view — and work

00:17:36,260 → 00:17:38,749

JOSH MACALISTER: your way back into the system, what

00:17:38,750 → 00:17:41,539

JOSH MACALISTER: practitioners would say is that it's

00:17:41,540 → 00:17:43,879

JOSH MACALISTER: really hard to get collaboration at the

00:17:43,880 → 00:17:48,409

JOSH MACALISTER: practitioner level on data and resources

00:17:48,410 → 00:17:50,809

JOSH MACALISTER: and joint decision-making and alignment

00:17:50,810 → 00:17:53,329

JOSH MACALISTER: around risk and harm.

00:17:53,330 → 00:17:54,979

JOSH MACALISTER: And the reason it's hard to do that is

00:17:54,980 → 00:17:57,769

JOSH MACALISTER: because those bigger decisions around

00:17:57,770 → 00:18:00,769

JOSH MACALISTER: alignment have not been made by

00:18:00,770 → 00:18:02,089

JOSH MACALISTER: the senior folk.

00:18:02,090 → 00:18:04,699

JOSH MACALISTER: And in my view, every safeguarding

00:18:04,700 → 00:18:07,999

JOSH MACALISTER: partnership should have to publish every

00:18:08,000 → 00:18:10,729

JOSH MACALISTER: year the money they're spending together,

00:18:10,730 → 00:18:12,469

JOSH MACALISTER: the information sharing agreements that

00:18:12,470 → 00:18:15,277

JOSH MACALISTER: they have jointly signed and are in place,

00:18:16,410 → 00:18:19,469

JOSH MACALISTER: and the delegation that they

00:18:19,470 → 00:18:22,589

JOSH MACALISTER: have made to the operational leaders,

00:18:22,590 → 00:18:25,469

JOSH MACALISTER: so that they can create multi-agency teams

00:18:25,470 → 00:18:27,329

JOSH MACALISTER: to do child protection work.

00:18:27,330 → 00:18:29,613

JOSH MACALISTER: Now, Ofsted, the DfE, any

00:18:31,230 → 00:18:33,419

JOSH MACALISTER: agency or body could, I think, fairly

00:18:33,420 → 00:18:36,329

JOSH MACALISTER: easily look at that paperwork once a year

00:18:36,330 → 00:18:39,419

JOSH MACALISTER: and stress test it to see: has every area

00:18:39,420 → 00:18:41,099

JOSH MACALISTER: got joint information sharing agreements

00:18:41,100 → 00:18:43,192

JOSH MACALISTER: in place, has every area got shared

00:18:43,193 → 00:18:45,629

JOSH MACALISTER: budgets being created and spent together.

00:18:45,630 → 00:18:47,099

JOSH MACALISTER: Those are the responsibilities of the

00:18:47,100 → 00:18:49,199

JOSH MACALISTER: strategic leaders. And instead, we've got

00:18:49,200 → 00:18:52,649

JOSH MACALISTER: a vague, fluffy arrangement

00:18:52,650 → 00:18:54,119

JOSH MACALISTER: where we're asking people to come together

00:18:54,120 → 00:18:56,039

JOSH MACALISTER: and collaborate, but we're not really

00:18:56,040 → 00:18:57,389

JOSH MACALISTER: clear what we're asking them to collaborate

00:18:57,390 → 00:18:59,399

JOSH MACALISTER: on. We don't know how to test it.

00:18:59,400 → 00:19:01,709

JOSH MACALISTER: And the consequence is felt at the

00:19:01,710 → 00:19:04,049

JOSH MACALISTER: operational level, where you've got

00:19:04,050 → 00:19:05,609

JOSH MACALISTER: practitioners running around picking up

00:19:05,610 → 00:19:06,959

JOSH MACALISTER: phones, trying to get hold of people to

00:19:06,960 → 00:19:08,669

JOSH MACALISTER: get a piece of information that's

00:19:08,670 → 00:19:10,439

JOSH MACALISTER: something they should be able to get

00:19:10,440 → 00:19:12,809

JOSH MACALISTER: instantly, through good information

00:19:12,810 → 00:19:15,929

JOSH MACALISTER: sharing. They're trying to resource a plan

00:19:15,930 → 00:19:18,959

JOSH MACALISTER: for a family or a team

00:19:18,960 → 00:19:21,869

JOSH MACALISTER: so they can get the forensic expertise

00:19:21,870 → 00:19:23,579

JOSH MACALISTER: they need into that child protection

00:19:23,580 → 00:19:26,099

JOSH MACALISTER: response. And they can't because they

00:19:26,100 → 00:19:28,469

JOSH MACALISTER: haven't got the seniority to bang heads

00:19:28,470 → 00:19:30,869

JOSH MACALISTER: together. And we go round and round and

00:19:30,870 → 00:19:32,789

JOSH MACALISTER: round and it's hugely frustrating for

00:19:32,790 → 00:19:34,919

JOSH MACALISTER: people. And then we have a death and a

00:19:34,920 → 00:19:37,259

JOSH MACALISTER: national report that says agencies don't

00:19:37,260 → 00:19:38,549

JOSH MACALISTER: work well enough together.

00:19:38,550 → 00:19:40,919

JOSH MACALISTER: And, you know, the NSPCC and its community

00:19:40,920 → 00:19:42,628

JOSH MACALISTER: knows this inside out and back to front,

00:19:42,629 → 00:19:45,599

JOSH MACALISTER: as do people that've done previous

00:19:45,600 → 00:19:48,749

JOSH MACALISTER: reports. It is very frustrating that

00:19:48,750 → 00:19:51,149

JOSH MACALISTER: this quite dry and potentially boring,

00:19:51,150 → 00:19:53,279

JOSH MACALISTER: dull subject of multi-agency working

00:19:53,280 → 00:19:55,810

JOSH MACALISTER: doesn't get the attention it needs because

00:19:57,360 → 00:20:00,599

JOSH MACALISTER: it's fixable. And we basically

00:20:00,600 → 00:20:02,219

JOSH MACALISTER: need to force some people to make some

00:20:02,220 → 00:20:04,829

JOSH MACALISTER: decisions together at a very senior level

00:20:04,830 → 00:20:06,449

JOSH MACALISTER: and then hold them to account for doing

00:20:06,450 → 00:20:09,029

JOSH MACALISTER: it. That's what we need to do.

00:20:09,030 → 00:20:10,979

ABIGAIL GILL: There's certainly a lot riding, I think, on

00:20:10,980 → 00:20:13,049

ABIGAIL GILL: the refresh of 'Working together', the

00:20:13,050 → 00:20:15,749

ABIGAIL GILL: guidance which is out for consultation at the

00:20:15,750 → 00:20:17,729

ABIGAIL GILL: moment, as you say Josh.

00:20:17,730 → 00:20:19,769

ABIGAIL GILL: Conscious of time and we are coming to the

00:20:19,770 → 00:20:22,829

ABIGAIL GILL: end, but it would be great just to touch

00:20:22,830 → 00:20:25,259

ABIGAIL GILL: on — probably one of the central facets of

00:20:25,260 → 00:20:28,049

ABIGAIL GILL: the care review — family help.

00:20:28,050 → 00:20:30,689

ABIGAIL GILL: Obviously the review put forward a fully

00:20:30,690 → 00:20:33,113

ABIGAIL GILL: costed plan for family help, a new vision

00:20:33,114 → 00:20:36,059

ABIGAIL GILL: which was really exciting and it's great to

00:20:36,060 → 00:20:37,889

ABIGAIL GILL: see quite a lot of that brought forward by

00:20:37,890 → 00:20:40,739

ABIGAIL GILL: government in 'Stable homes, built on love'.

00:20:40,740 → 00:20:42,299

ABIGAIL GILL: I think one of the things that's been much

00:20:42,300 → 00:20:44,609

ABIGAIL GILL: discussed is the distinction between early

00:20:44,610 → 00:20:46,199

ABIGAIL GILL: help and family help.

00:20:46,200 → 00:20:49,139

ABIGAIL GILL: And obviously you had a certain remit with

00:20:49,140 → 00:20:51,929

ABIGAIL GILL: the care review and you had to cut your cloth

00:20:51,930 → 00:20:53,659

ABIGAIL GILL: in some ways.

00:20:53,660 → 00:20:56,579

ABIGAIL GILL: What are your reflections on how you had to

00:20:56,580 → 00:20:59,129

ABIGAIL GILL: distinguish between family help and early

00:20:59,130 → 00:21:01,949

ABIGAIL GILL: help. And even though you didn't look maybe

00:21:01,950 → 00:21:04,289

ABIGAIL GILL: in as much depth at early universal help and

00:21:04,290 → 00:21:06,299

ABIGAIL GILL: how that feeds in, you must have had to

00:21:06,300 → 00:21:09,399

ABIGAIL GILL: consider it as part of the broader ecosystem

00:21:09,400 → 00:21:11,249

ABIGAIL GILL: for children's services.

00:21:11,250 → 00:21:12,839

JOSH MACALISTER: Yeah, in the review, we've we've got a

00:21:12,840 → 00:21:15,479

JOSH MACALISTER: definition of what we mean by family help.

00:21:15,480 → 00:21:17,339

JOSH MACALISTER: We put a number on it as well, of the

00:21:17,340 → 00:21:19,739

JOSH MACALISTER: number of families that fall into that

00:21:19,740 → 00:21:20,740

JOSH MACALISTER: category.

00:21:22,050 → 00:21:25,229

JOSH MACALISTER: And we recognise that it isn't a universal

00:21:25,230 → 00:21:27,749

JOSH MACALISTER: service because it's providing really

00:21:27,750 → 00:21:30,010

JOSH MACALISTER: intensive help for families where children

00:21:30,011 → 00:21:32,339

JOSH MACALISTER: — and this is to quote the legislation —

00:21:32,340 → 00:21:34,139

JOSH MACALISTER: are at risk of not reaching a reasonable

00:21:34,140 → 00:21:35,969

JOSH MACALISTER: level of health and development.

00:21:35,970 → 00:21:38,009

JOSH MACALISTER: Now that's not the same agreement as

00:21:38,010 → 00:21:41,219

JOSH MACALISTER: universal or even, in

00:21:41,220 → 00:21:43,769

JOSH MACALISTER: some cases, broadly targeted early help

00:21:43,770 → 00:21:46,829

JOSH MACALISTER: provision. It does rest on that system

00:21:46,830 → 00:21:48,809

JOSH MACALISTER: of early help.

00:21:48,810 → 00:21:50,219

JOSH MACALISTER: So, of course, there's a link between the

00:21:50,220 → 00:21:53,489

JOSH MACALISTER: two. I guess one of the things

00:21:53,490 → 00:21:56,129

JOSH MACALISTER: we have done over time is we've made a

00:21:56,130 → 00:21:58,049

JOSH MACALISTER: system that's very complicated for

00:21:58,050 → 00:22:01,289

JOSH MACALISTER: families, that involves them often being

00:22:01,290 → 00:22:04,409

JOSH MACALISTER: referred a lot through different levels

00:22:04,410 → 00:22:06,689

JOSH MACALISTER: and stages of a system.

00:22:06,690 → 00:22:08,459

JOSH MACALISTER: And actually we spend a lot of money

00:22:08,460 → 00:22:11,279

JOSH MACALISTER: administering that referral system,

00:22:11,280 → 00:22:13,589

JOSH MACALISTER: sometimes at the cost of just providing

00:22:13,590 → 00:22:14,590

JOSH MACALISTER: the service.

00:22:15,600 → 00:22:17,849

JOSH MACALISTER: And we see this a lot in the child in need

00:22:17,850 → 00:22:20,849

JOSH MACALISTER: arena, where the original intention in

00:22:20,850 → 00:22:23,849

JOSH MACALISTER: the '89 Act was that

00:22:23,850 → 00:22:25,739

JOSH MACALISTER: local authorities provide a broad,

00:22:25,740 → 00:22:28,769

JOSH MACALISTER: flexible service in responding to families

00:22:28,770 → 00:22:30,659

JOSH MACALISTER: where children are at risk of not reaching

00:22:30,660 → 00:22:32,489

JOSH MACALISTER: a reasonable level of health and development.

00:22:32,490 → 00:22:34,619

JOSH MACALISTER: And we've turned that over the years into

00:22:34,620 → 00:22:37,589

JOSH MACALISTER: a, in my view, risk-led

00:22:37,590 → 00:22:39,929

JOSH MACALISTER: precursor to child protection so that

00:22:39,930 → 00:22:42,479

JOSH MACALISTER: families often find they get more help at

00:22:42,480 → 00:22:45,359

JOSH MACALISTER: the targeted early help end of the system

00:22:45,360 → 00:22:47,399

JOSH MACALISTER: when there's no social workers involved

00:22:47,400 → 00:22:49,199

JOSH MACALISTER: and then risks escalate and they get a

00:22:49,200 → 00:22:51,029

JOSH MACALISTER: child in need plan and then the support

00:22:51,030 → 00:22:54,239

JOSH MACALISTER: drops off. Risks then escalate, problems

00:22:54,240 → 00:22:55,589

JOSH MACALISTER: escalate, and then they end up in the child

00:22:55,590 → 00:22:57,839

JOSH MACALISTER: protection system. And having then had

00:22:57,840 → 00:22:59,369

JOSH MACALISTER: three different teams, three different

00:22:59,370 → 00:23:01,049

JOSH MACALISTER: referrals, three different assessments.

00:23:02,190 → 00:23:03,899

JOSH MACALISTER: And so the recommendation was to try and

00:23:03,900 → 00:23:07,379

JOSH MACALISTER: simplify that and say, look, if families

00:23:07,380 → 00:23:09,989

JOSH MACALISTER: require an intensive level of help and

00:23:09,990 → 00:23:11,859

JOSH MACALISTER: support in order for their child to reach

00:23:11,860 → 00:23:13,919

JOSH MACALISTER: a reasonable level of health and development,

00:23:13,920 → 00:23:16,049

JOSH MACALISTER: that should be a multi-disciplinary social

00:23:16,050 → 00:23:18,959

JOSH MACALISTER: work-led service that has got

00:23:18,960 → 00:23:21,419

JOSH MACALISTER: significantly larger sums of money being

00:23:21,420 → 00:23:22,919

JOSH MACALISTER: spent on it.

00:23:22,920 → 00:23:25,919

JOSH MACALISTER: And we projected savings that that

00:23:25,920 → 00:23:29,459

JOSH MACALISTER: would create, off the back of existing

00:23:29,460 → 00:23:31,469

JOSH MACALISTER: interventions and models that have reduced

00:23:31,470 → 00:23:33,089

JOSH MACALISTER: the number of children needing to go into

00:23:33,090 → 00:23:36,089

JOSH MACALISTER: care. So it's a pretty watertight

00:23:36,090 → 00:23:38,669

JOSH MACALISTER: business case that we set out.

00:23:38,670 → 00:23:40,559

JOSH MACALISTER: And I said that over four years we need to

00:23:40,560 → 00:23:44,279

JOSH MACALISTER: ramp up spending by £2 billion, and

00:23:44,280 → 00:23:46,859

JOSH MACALISTER: that would shift, you know, turn the tide

00:23:46,860 → 00:23:48,149

JOSH MACALISTER: in terms of where money is spent in the

00:23:48,150 → 00:23:50,609

JOSH MACALISTER: system. It would mean families get a much

00:23:50,610 → 00:23:53,200

JOSH MACALISTER: quicker, more human and

00:23:54,870 → 00:23:56,909

JOSH MACALISTER: dignified response from services.

00:23:56,910 → 00:23:59,639

JOSH MACALISTER: And, crucially, children would be able to

00:23:59,640 → 00:24:02,459

JOSH MACALISTER: live together happily and successfully

00:24:02,460 → 00:24:04,469

JOSH MACALISTER: with their families. But all of that is

00:24:04,470 → 00:24:07,799

JOSH MACALISTER: built on a wider system

00:24:07,800 → 00:24:10,319

JOSH MACALISTER: of support from schools, from health

00:24:10,320 → 00:24:12,292

JOSH MACALISTER: visitors, from early years settings.

00:24:15,450 → 00:24:17,459

JOSH MACALISTER: And of course, there are links to that, but

00:24:17,460 → 00:24:19,359

JOSH MACALISTER: it is a distinctive system.

00:24:19,360 → 00:24:21,959

JOSH MACALISTER: One of the things I've noticed is since

00:24:21,960 → 00:24:23,459

JOSH MACALISTER: the review was published, there are

00:24:23,460 → 00:24:26,789

JOSH MACALISTER: conversations about family help and

00:24:26,790 → 00:24:29,759

JOSH MACALISTER: family hubs and early help and we

00:24:29,760 → 00:24:31,859

JOSH MACALISTER: need to be careful not to conflate and

00:24:31,860 → 00:24:34,559

JOSH MACALISTER: confuse those concepts and ideas because

00:24:34,560 → 00:24:36,629

JOSH MACALISTER: they are distinct. And the review tried

00:24:36,630 → 00:24:39,419

JOSH MACALISTER: very, very hard to be precise in its

00:24:39,420 → 00:24:40,619

JOSH MACALISTER: language.

00:24:40,620 → 00:24:42,509

ABIGAIL GILL: That's helpful. And that's helpful, actually,

00:24:42,510 → 00:24:43,949

ABIGAIL GILL: food for thought for those of us that are

00:24:43,950 → 00:24:46,019

ABIGAIL GILL: working on that at the moment.

00:24:46,020 → 00:24:49,169

ABIGAIL GILL: You touch just on the the costing

00:24:49,170 → 00:24:50,939

ABIGAIL GILL: of the care review.

00:24:50,940 → 00:24:53,909

ABIGAIL GILL: And, from a policy perspective, the NSPCC has

00:24:53,910 → 00:24:57,119

ABIGAIL GILL: raised concerns about the cost of reform

00:24:57,120 → 00:24:59,910

ABIGAIL GILL: and the delays to it, and also the pace,

00:25:01,140 → 00:25:03,419

ABIGAIL GILL: despite the fact that, as you say, the review

00:25:03,420 → 00:25:05,849

ABIGAIL GILL: sets out a fully costed implementation plan

00:25:05,850 → 00:25:08,069

ABIGAIL GILL: which could have been actioned pretty much

00:25:08,070 → 00:25:09,509

ABIGAIL GILL: immediately.

00:25:09,510 → 00:25:12,179

ABIGAIL GILL: And now we are more than a year on, the

00:25:12,180 → 00:25:14,069

ABIGAIL GILL: Government has only just announced the first

00:25:14,070 → 00:25:17,679

ABIGAIL GILL: Pathfinder local authorities and we published

00:25:17,680 → 00:25:20,849

ABIGAIL GILL: economic analysis which shows that the cost

00:25:20,850 → 00:25:22,679

ABIGAIL GILL: of delaying reform by just the two-year

00:25:22,680 → 00:25:25,529

ABIGAIL GILL: Pathfinder period will cost the taxpayer an

00:25:25,530 → 00:25:27,809

ABIGAIL GILL: extra £1 billion.

00:25:27,810 → 00:25:30,767

ABIGAIL GILL: So, we're hopeful that reform is coming

00:25:30,768 → 00:25:33,059

ABIGAIL GILL: but it has been slow.

00:25:33,060 → 00:25:35,909

ABIGAIL GILL: What are your personal reflections, just to

00:25:35,910 → 00:25:38,969

ABIGAIL GILL: finish, on how the Government has taken the

00:25:38,970 → 00:25:40,439

ABIGAIL GILL: review forward and I guess what are your

00:25:40,440 → 00:25:42,329

ABIGAIL GILL: hopes for the future?

00:25:42,330 → 00:25:45,419

JOSH MACALISTER: I think there are lots of

00:25:45,420 → 00:25:47,399

JOSH MACALISTER: areas of public services where we've got

00:25:47,400 → 00:25:50,039

JOSH MACALISTER: this problem of, if we're being really

00:25:50,040 → 00:25:52,349

JOSH MACALISTER: honest with ourselves, we can see that if

00:25:52,350 → 00:25:53,999

JOSH MACALISTER: we don't change course things will get

00:25:54,000 → 00:25:56,189

JOSH MACALISTER: more expensive. And whether that's adult

00:25:56,190 → 00:25:59,219

JOSH MACALISTER: social care, the NHS, some forms of

00:25:59,220 → 00:26:01,529

JOSH MACALISTER: school support, definitely children's

00:26:01,530 → 00:26:03,599

JOSH MACALISTER: social care — they're on these

00:26:03,600 → 00:26:06,029

JOSH MACALISTER: trajectories where the outcomes are

00:26:06,030 → 00:26:07,679

JOSH MACALISTER: probably going to get worse and the costs

00:26:07,680 → 00:26:09,239

JOSH MACALISTER: are probably going to go up.

00:26:09,240 → 00:26:12,929

JOSH MACALISTER: So the fiscally responsible thing to do

00:26:12,930 → 00:26:16,079

JOSH MACALISTER: is to frontload some of the spend

00:26:16,080 → 00:26:19,799

JOSH MACALISTER: that we will end up paying anyway

00:26:19,800 → 00:26:22,679

JOSH MACALISTER: on a reform programme that flips the

00:26:22,680 → 00:26:24,959

JOSH MACALISTER: balance, the long term balance of the

00:26:24,960 → 00:26:26,849

JOSH MACALISTER: system, and improves outcomes.

00:26:26,850 → 00:26:28,589

JOSH MACALISTER: The wider benefits of this are just so

00:26:28,590 → 00:26:31,589

JOSH MACALISTER: clear. Every year, the costs of

00:26:31,590 → 00:26:33,839

JOSH MACALISTER: poor outcomes from children's social care,

00:26:33,840 → 00:26:35,249

JOSH MACALISTER: the costs of poor outcomes for children

00:26:35,250 → 00:26:38,279

JOSH MACALISTER: and their families, is well over £20

00:26:38,280 → 00:26:40,289

JOSH MACALISTER: billion a year.

00:26:40,290 → 00:26:41,639

JOSH MACALISTER: We're spending money on that too.

00:26:41,640 → 00:26:44,429

JOSH MACALISTER: So, the economic financial case for this

00:26:44,430 → 00:26:46,619

JOSH MACALISTER: is only getting stronger.

00:26:46,620 → 00:26:47,993

JOSH MACALISTER: I know the NSPCC are there, I'm there,

00:26:49,140 → 00:26:50,939

JOSH MACALISTER: lots of other organisations and advocates

00:26:50,940 → 00:26:53,369

JOSH MACALISTER: are as well, saying, you know, we're not

00:26:53,370 → 00:26:54,899

JOSH MACALISTER: going to let up on this. Government are

00:26:54,900 → 00:26:56,429

JOSH MACALISTER: going in the right direction.

00:26:56,430 → 00:26:57,719

JOSH MACALISTER: They need to go further. They need to go

00:26:57,720 → 00:26:59,249

JOSH MACALISTER: faster.

00:26:59,250 → 00:27:01,739

JOSH MACALISTER: And we're not going to let up because too

00:27:01,740 → 00:27:03,869

JOSH MACALISTER: many people's lives are on the line and

00:27:03,870 → 00:27:07,829

JOSH MACALISTER: the consequence of inaction is a social,

00:27:07,830 → 00:27:10,559

JOSH MACALISTER: moral and economic urgency.

00:27:14,710 → 00:27:17,079

CONCLUSION: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning

00:27:17,080 → 00:27:18,369

CONCLUSION: podcast.

00:27:18,370 → 00:27:21,009

CONCLUSION: At the time of recording this episode, content

00:27:21,010 → 00:27:23,439

CONCLUSION: was up-to-date, but the world of safeguarding

00:27:23,440 → 00:27:24,660

CONCLUSION: and child protection is ever-changing.

00:27:26,020 → 00:27:28,089

CONCLUSION: So if you're looking for the most current

00:27:28,090 → 00:27:30,789

CONCLUSION: safeguarding and child protection, training,

00:27:30,790 → 00:27:33,789

CONCLUSION: information or resources, please visit

00:27:33,790 → 00:27:35,889

CONCLUSION: our website for professionals at

00:27:35,890 → 00:27:36,890

CONCLUSION: nspcc.org.uk/learning.

Sorry, your browser isn't supported.

Page load failed