1 00:00:07,957 --> 00:00:10,758 DIANE KENWOOD: Hello and welcome to the National Trust Podcast. 2 00:00:11,298 --> 00:00:14,680 I'm Diane Kenwood, writer, blogger and broadcaster, and 3 00:00:14,700 --> 00:00:16,981 today we're heading to the village of Waddesdon in the 4 00:00:17,081 --> 00:00:20,062 Aylesbury Vale in Buckinghamshire. Our journey 5 00:00:20,102 --> 00:00:23,063 begins on an ordinary high street which hides an 6 00:00:23,283 --> 00:00:27,735 extraordinary story of survival, hope and philanthropy in one of 7 00:00:27,735 --> 00:00:29,566 the darkest periods of our history. 8 00:00:32,898 --> 00:00:36,060 Please be advised that this special episode explores events 9 00:00:36,160 --> 00:00:38,722 around the Holocaust and features some emotive 10 00:00:38,802 --> 00:00:39,583 descriptions. 11 00:00:41,404 --> 00:00:47,408 HELGA STEINHARDT: We first came to Waddesdon on 16th March 1939, 12 00:00:47,408 --> 00:00:51,771 and we were welcomed by a group of people from the village. 13 00:00:54,914 --> 00:00:57,375 DIANE KENWOOD: Waddesdon in Buckinghamshire is best known as 14 00:00:57,375 --> 00:01:00,838 the home of Waddesdon Manor owned by the Rothschild dynasty. 15 00:01:01,666 --> 00:01:05,968 But our journey today starts somewhere very different. I'm 16 00:01:06,028 --> 00:01:08,749 walking along the village high street, and I can see rows of 17 00:01:08,849 --> 00:01:12,431 shops, a couple of pubs. Then we come to a cluster of really 18 00:01:12,511 --> 00:01:15,532 unusual looking, almost gothic style houses. 19 00:01:17,113 --> 00:01:21,255 In March 1939, a group of 23 children and their two adult 20 00:01:21,295 --> 00:01:25,056 guardians stepped off a coach here, taking in their strange 21 00:01:25,136 --> 00:01:29,766 new home in a strange new country for the first time. The 22 00:01:29,806 --> 00:01:33,967 children were Jewish refugees. They'd escaped from Nazi Germany 23 00:01:34,388 --> 00:01:36,928 where they'd been forced to leave behind their families, 24 00:01:37,008 --> 00:01:38,249 friends and homes. 25 00:01:39,369 --> 00:01:42,070 These children came to live in the village in a house with 26 00:01:42,170 --> 00:01:46,172 cedar trees growing outside. They would become known as the 27 00:01:46,292 --> 00:01:49,713 Cedar Boys and Girls, and we are here to find out more about 28 00:01:49,733 --> 00:01:53,154 their remarkable story with the help of the people closest to 29 00:01:53,234 --> 00:01:53,374 them. 30 00:01:55,830 --> 00:01:57,191 Hello there. Hi, I'm Diane. 31 00:01:57,312 --> 00:01:58,092 JACKIE STEINHARDT: I'm Jackie Steinhardt. 32 00:01:58,172 --> 00:01:58,913 DIANE KENWOOD: Hi, Jackie. 33 00:01:58,913 --> 00:01:59,374 JEREMY STEINHARDT: I'm Jeremy. 34 00:01:59,374 --> 00:02:01,416 DIANE KENWOOD: Jeremy, explain to me... Jackie and Jeremy are 35 00:02:01,456 --> 00:02:05,040 cousins. Their mothers Helga and Lore Steinhardt were sisters. 36 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,364 The sisters aged 14 and 11, their parents, Mr. And Mrs. 37 00:02:09,424 --> 00:02:14,069 Steinhardt, and in total 31 children aged eight to 15 were 38 00:02:14,089 --> 00:02:17,853 Holocaust refugees who arrived here in Waddesdon after fleeing 39 00:02:17,873 --> 00:02:18,994 their home in Frankfurt. 40 00:02:21,782 --> 00:02:25,024 Jeremy and Jackie, we've walked through the village, and we've 41 00:02:25,044 --> 00:02:28,327 come to this quite sprawling, very attractive red brick house. 42 00:02:28,527 --> 00:02:30,548 What's particularly special about this place? 43 00:02:31,549 --> 00:02:34,411 JEREMY STEINHARDT: Well, this is the Cedars where the Cedar Boys 44 00:02:34,451 --> 00:02:37,954 got their name from, and this was the house that they arrived 45 00:02:37,994 --> 00:02:41,296 here in March 1939. 46 00:02:41,296 --> 00:02:44,519 DIANE KENWOOD: How do you feel now looking at the house and 47 00:02:44,539 --> 00:02:46,380 knowing that's where they came when they were so little? 48 00:02:47,501 --> 00:02:50,539 JACKIE STEINHARDT: It gives me goosebumps. It's lovely to see 49 00:02:50,559 --> 00:02:54,102 that the trees are still out at the front and that it really 50 00:02:54,162 --> 00:02:57,525 hasn't changed very much, and it is extremely well maintained. 51 00:02:58,546 --> 00:03:00,268 DIANE KENWOOD: It's interesting, isn't it, this generation of 52 00:03:00,308 --> 00:03:03,411 people who came over during the war, process their experiences 53 00:03:03,471 --> 00:03:06,714 because my mother-in-law came from Austria during the war when 54 00:03:06,734 --> 00:03:10,037 she was a young child, and my father-in-law was Polish and he 55 00:03:10,117 --> 00:03:11,038 escaped from Poland. 56 00:03:11,338 --> 00:03:14,861 My mother-in-law did talk about it a lot, my father-in-law never 57 00:03:14,901 --> 00:03:19,618 talked about it at all. How did you piece together the story of 58 00:03:19,658 --> 00:03:22,162 your mother's history and what happened when they came from 59 00:03:22,182 --> 00:03:23,043 Germany to live here? 60 00:03:23,484 --> 00:03:26,308 JACKIE STEINHARDT: It was only really later on when we spent so 61 00:03:26,328 --> 00:03:29,052 much time together that she talked. I used to go down there 62 00:03:29,072 --> 00:03:29,612 every day. 63 00:03:30,113 --> 00:03:31,735 JEREMY STEINHARDT: I used to have all the photograph albums 64 00:03:32,316 --> 00:03:35,859 and I think they were the thing that clicked with me. Who are 65 00:03:35,859 --> 00:03:38,700 these people in this photograph album? I better find out. 66 00:03:39,261 --> 00:03:41,933 DIANE KENWOOD: Let's go back and paint a picture of your mothers' 67 00:03:41,933 --> 00:03:44,644 lives. The two sisters, Helga and Lore. 68 00:03:45,244 --> 00:03:47,205 JEREMY STEINHARDT: My mother was born in a little town called 69 00:03:47,365 --> 00:03:49,947 Freiburg and Aunt Helga was born in Butzbach. 70 00:03:50,287 --> 00:03:51,988 JACKIE STEINHARDT: They were quite a happy little family. 71 00:03:52,789 --> 00:03:55,790 They lived in a very nice apartment. 72 00:03:56,371 --> 00:03:57,892 JEREMY STEINHARDT: They mixed with the whole community. 73 00:03:57,892 --> 00:03:58,012 JACKIE STEINHARDT: Yes. 74 00:03:58,012 --> 00:03:59,633 JEREMY STEINHARDT: They didn't just mix with Jewish people. 75 00:03:59,653 --> 00:04:02,014 JACKIE STEINHARDT: Yes, and that changed in 1933. 76 00:04:04,018 --> 00:04:07,742 ALEX MAWS: It's so important to recognize that the Holocaust 77 00:04:07,862 --> 00:04:12,736 didn't start with the flip of a switch. There was a slow build 78 00:04:12,736 --> 00:04:16,610 up. My name is Alex Maws. I'm the Head of Education and 79 00:04:16,630 --> 00:04:19,854 Heritage at the Association Of Jewish Refugees or the AJR. 80 00:04:21,442 --> 00:04:25,505 The years of 1933, when the Nazis first came to power, all 81 00:04:25,505 --> 00:04:28,948 the way through 1939, the outbreak of war, the situation 82 00:04:28,988 --> 00:04:32,710 became increasingly dire for Jews living in Germany and 83 00:04:32,931 --> 00:04:38,275 Nazi-occupied areas. Anti-Jewish laws included excluding Jews 84 00:04:38,315 --> 00:04:40,496 from certain professions and education. 85 00:04:40,957 --> 00:04:45,268 Businesses were eventually closed. Financially, Jews had to 86 00:04:45,428 --> 00:04:49,975 pay a series of levies on their assets and eventually turn over 87 00:04:49,995 --> 00:04:53,681 their property. There was a loss of personal freedom, there was a 88 00:04:53,701 --> 00:04:57,526 loss of citizenship, critically. A requirement that Jews had to 89 00:04:57,647 --> 00:04:59,890 carry ID that identified them as Jews. 90 00:05:04,132 --> 00:05:06,694 DIANE KENWOOD: As with all Jewish citizens under Nazi rule, 91 00:05:07,194 --> 00:05:09,956 life became more and more difficult for the Steinhardt 92 00:05:10,016 --> 00:05:10,396 family. 93 00:05:10,436 --> 00:05:15,079 JEREMY STEINHARDT: In 1933, my grandfather Hugo was told he 94 00:05:15,119 --> 00:05:18,241 wasn't allowed to be a schoolteacher anymore, and then 95 00:05:18,801 --> 00:05:22,223 I think their life became more peripatetic. They just tried to 96 00:05:22,263 --> 00:05:22,963 find work. 97 00:05:23,664 --> 00:05:26,025 DIANE KENWOOD: With limited options, the family considered 98 00:05:26,045 --> 00:05:29,027 themselves lucky when Mr. Steinhardt eventually found a 99 00:05:29,047 --> 00:05:33,185 job in Frankfurt. Hugo Steinhardt would be teaching at 100 00:05:33,185 --> 00:05:37,666 a prestigious Jewish school, The Philanthropin. The role included 101 00:05:37,726 --> 00:05:41,287 living and working at a nearby Jewish boys' home, The Flörsheim 102 00:05:41,387 --> 00:05:42,187 Sicklesiftung. 103 00:05:42,927 --> 00:05:46,448 The home had originally been an orphanage. However, increasingly 104 00:05:46,568 --> 00:05:49,449 the children arriving there had been sent by their parents from 105 00:05:49,529 --> 00:05:52,630 surrounding villages where anti-Semitism had become 106 00:05:52,750 --> 00:05:56,311 especially severe. One of the boys arriving at the school and 107 00:05:56,391 --> 00:06:00,872 home was Hans Spier, who later changed his name to Jack Spier. 108 00:06:02,288 --> 00:06:07,213 MARGARET SPIER: Dad was always a happy child. He was very loved. 109 00:06:07,633 --> 00:06:11,096 Even though he was an only child, he had a lot of uncles, 110 00:06:11,256 --> 00:06:15,701 aunts, and cousins, as well as both sets of grandparents. He 111 00:06:15,781 --> 00:06:20,445 had a normal life. I'm Margaret. I'm the daughter of Jack Spier. 112 00:06:21,966 --> 00:06:26,891 Dad grew up in a small village of Treiser, northeast of 113 00:06:27,191 --> 00:06:32,095 Frankfurt. Willie, dad's father, and had served as an officer in 114 00:06:32,095 --> 00:06:35,526 the First World War and he was hopeful that things would 115 00:06:35,566 --> 00:06:36,286 improve. 116 00:06:36,826 --> 00:06:40,227 He didn't think that the Nazi's views would affect him and his 117 00:06:40,327 --> 00:06:44,428 extended family until it was too late to do anything about. It 118 00:06:44,448 --> 00:06:49,390 was usual at school for Hans to be picked upon because he was a 119 00:06:49,410 --> 00:06:56,572 Jew. On dad's 10th birthday, the children stood up and said, "We 120 00:06:56,632 --> 00:07:01,534 don't sing to Jews." After his 10th birthday, dad was expelled 121 00:07:01,554 --> 00:07:04,035 from school purely because he was a Jew. 122 00:07:06,677 --> 00:07:09,398 DIANE KENWOOD: The Steinhardts and parents of the boys staying 123 00:07:09,418 --> 00:07:12,770 in the children's home in Frankfurt hoped for safety in 124 00:07:12,770 --> 00:07:17,382 the more anonymous big city. But any relief would be short-lived. 125 00:07:17,983 --> 00:07:22,665 On 9th November 1938, Kristallnacht, meaning the night 126 00:07:22,725 --> 00:07:26,187 of broken glass, marked a violent turning point in the 127 00:07:26,207 --> 00:07:27,468 persecution of Jews. 128 00:07:30,924 --> 00:07:35,726 MARGARET SPIER: The ordinary people were authorized almost by 129 00:07:35,726 --> 00:07:43,388 the state to attack Jewish synagogues, schools, homes, even 130 00:07:43,448 --> 00:07:44,469 the children's home. 131 00:07:45,549 --> 00:07:48,010 JEREMY STEINHARDT: One of the boys said that it was a really 132 00:07:48,130 --> 00:07:50,951 cutting night. Most of the people that attacked the 133 00:07:50,991 --> 00:07:52,291 children's home were their neighbours. 134 00:07:52,431 --> 00:07:52,752 DIANE KENWOOD: Yes. 135 00:07:52,852 --> 00:07:53,752 JEREMY STEINHARDT: He recognized them. 136 00:07:54,704 --> 00:07:55,865 MARGARET SPIER: They were throwing bricks through the 137 00:07:55,865 --> 00:08:00,088 windows. The children made their way to the back bedrooms and hid 138 00:08:00,128 --> 00:08:05,311 under the beds. They got away with relatively little damage, 139 00:08:05,371 --> 00:08:11,375 except that following that Hugo and the other teachers were 140 00:08:11,415 --> 00:08:14,617 taken to Buchenwald concentration camp. 141 00:08:16,238 --> 00:08:20,001 ALEX MAWS: There was really no denying after 9th November, the 142 00:08:20,061 --> 00:08:24,264 situation and how untenable it was for Jews in Germany to stay 143 00:08:24,324 --> 00:08:28,804 there. They really needed to find any place at all in the 144 00:08:28,844 --> 00:08:32,228 world that would take them in as refugees. That wasn't really an 145 00:08:32,268 --> 00:08:35,752 option for most Jews. Hardly any countries in the world offered 146 00:08:35,813 --> 00:08:40,048 to increase their immigration quotas to help those Jews who 147 00:08:40,048 --> 00:08:42,020 were in desperate need of a safe haven. 148 00:08:43,152 --> 00:08:44,753 DIANE KENWOOD: For those of us in the Jewish faith, 149 00:08:45,133 --> 00:08:49,236 philanthropy or Tzedakah is a cornerstone of our beliefs and 150 00:08:49,256 --> 00:08:53,419 an ethical obligation. When the world looked on in horror at the 151 00:08:53,499 --> 00:08:57,642 unfolding atrocities under the Nazis, Jewish campaigners, along 152 00:08:57,662 --> 00:09:00,964 with other organizations and individuals urgently put a 153 00:09:01,004 --> 00:09:03,566 rescue plan into place to help refugees. 154 00:09:04,146 --> 00:09:07,368 Against the ticking clock of the outbreak of war, campaigners 155 00:09:07,448 --> 00:09:11,271 appealed to the UK government to relax their immigration laws for 156 00:09:11,311 --> 00:09:12,992 Jews before it was too late. 157 00:09:15,556 --> 00:09:18,817 In a highly charged parliamentary debate on 21st 158 00:09:18,917 --> 00:09:22,998 November 1938, the government under Prime Minister Neville 159 00:09:23,038 --> 00:09:27,540 Chamberlain discussed the issue. The main focus of the debate was 160 00:09:27,540 --> 00:09:31,381 to help unaccompanied children. There would be stipulations. The 161 00:09:31,401 --> 00:09:34,982 children were not allowed to come with their parents, but the 162 00:09:35,002 --> 00:09:38,203 government agreed to waive visa restrictions that would make it 163 00:09:38,263 --> 00:09:41,444 easier for these refugee children to enter the UK. 164 00:09:44,392 --> 00:09:47,913 Just weeks later, campaigners had mobilized a massive 165 00:09:48,013 --> 00:09:49,114 evacuation plan. 166 00:09:51,354 --> 00:09:54,916 ALEX MAWS: The Kindertransport is the name that's given to the 167 00:09:54,996 --> 00:09:59,897 rescue operation that began on 1st December 1938, led up to the 168 00:09:59,957 --> 00:10:03,993 outbreak of war in 1939, during which nearly 10,000 169 00:10:04,433 --> 00:10:08,996 unaccompanied Jewish children under the age of 17, mostly from 170 00:10:09,276 --> 00:10:12,538 Germany and Austria, but also from Czechoslovakia and Poland 171 00:10:12,538 --> 00:10:16,060 and other countries, were sent by their parents away from the 172 00:10:16,140 --> 00:10:19,322 threat of Nazism to safety in Britain. 173 00:10:19,923 --> 00:10:25,606 Those children were placed into foster homes, hostels, schools, 174 00:10:25,706 --> 00:10:28,808 farms, any place that could take them in across the UK. 175 00:10:32,688 --> 00:10:35,730 When many people talk about the Kindertransport today, they 176 00:10:35,850 --> 00:10:39,052 often think of it as a program sponsored by the British 177 00:10:39,132 --> 00:10:42,954 government. But it's important to know that it was average 178 00:10:43,094 --> 00:10:46,236 ordinary people who actually organized this massive rescue 179 00:10:46,276 --> 00:10:46,796 operation. 180 00:10:48,096 --> 00:10:51,238 One of the stipulations of the new law that enabled the 181 00:10:51,238 --> 00:10:54,319 Kindertransport to happen is that children were allowed to 182 00:10:54,339 --> 00:10:56,721 come as unaccompanied minors, but there needed to be a 183 00:10:56,781 --> 00:11:00,603 guarantee, a fee that was paid for each child of £50, which is 184 00:11:00,663 --> 00:11:02,964 something like £2,000 in today's money. 185 00:11:04,464 --> 00:11:08,570 It was 10,000 children who came to Britain but not their 186 00:11:08,610 --> 00:11:12,917 parents, and so for every story that we hear of a 187 00:11:13,317 --> 00:11:16,903 Kindertransport refugee, we have to remember that they left 188 00:11:16,943 --> 00:11:20,288 behind their parents, their wider families, their siblings. 189 00:11:24,388 --> 00:11:26,929 DIANE KENWOOD: Meanwhile, in Frankfurt, sisters Lore and 190 00:11:26,969 --> 00:11:30,330 Helga Steinhardt were in a desperate situation. Their 191 00:11:30,370 --> 00:11:33,451 father had been tortured in Buchenwald concentration camp, 192 00:11:33,991 --> 00:11:36,992 but at the time, release was possible if he could prove he 193 00:11:37,012 --> 00:11:41,414 was going to leave the country. The sisters aged just 14 and 10, 194 00:11:41,854 --> 00:11:44,955 devised a plan to try and get their family and the boys in the 195 00:11:44,975 --> 00:11:47,256 children's home out of Nazi Germany. 196 00:11:48,604 --> 00:11:51,466 HELGA STEINHARDT: During that time, my sister and I wrote 197 00:11:51,546 --> 00:11:55,769 letters to various VIPs to see if they could help us. 198 00:11:56,829 --> 00:11:59,931 DIANE KENWOOD: This is the voice of Helga speaking in her old age 199 00:11:59,991 --> 00:12:03,814 for an oral history project at Waddesdon Manor. She recalls how 200 00:12:03,874 --> 00:12:06,736 she and her sister wrote to prominent Jewish figures around 201 00:12:06,736 --> 00:12:08,617 the world appealing for their help. 202 00:12:09,417 --> 00:12:11,839 HELGA STEINHARDT: I wrote to President Roosevelt, but he 203 00:12:11,919 --> 00:12:16,206 wasn't really interested, and my sister wrote to Lord Rothschild. 204 00:12:16,746 --> 00:12:19,708 That's Lord Rothschild, Victor. 205 00:12:21,430 --> 00:12:29,156 She was very lucky because he managed to contact James and 206 00:12:29,216 --> 00:12:33,699 there was a house available in Waddesdon, the Cedars, which was 207 00:12:33,779 --> 00:12:39,548 vacant. James sent a representative to Germany, that 208 00:12:39,588 --> 00:12:43,972 was Mr. Julian Layton. He negotiated with the boys' 209 00:12:44,052 --> 00:12:49,236 parents and the officials to obtain all the requisite papers 210 00:12:50,037 --> 00:12:53,340 to transfer the boys home to Waddesdon. 211 00:12:55,740 --> 00:12:57,883 DIANE KENWOOD: Let's set the scene a bit in terms of the 212 00:12:57,963 --> 00:13:01,907 journey that the whole group made from Germany to get here to 213 00:13:01,927 --> 00:13:05,571 Waddesdon. How unbelievably difficult it must have been for 214 00:13:05,591 --> 00:13:09,396 the parents of these children to agree to let them go, knowing 215 00:13:09,436 --> 00:13:11,999 that that could be the last time they ever see them, but also 216 00:13:12,099 --> 00:13:14,542 knowing that by doing that they're saving their lives. 217 00:13:15,503 --> 00:13:18,986 MARGARET SPIER: I know that on the morning that they left 218 00:13:19,066 --> 00:13:24,073 Frankfurt, my father's mother was present at the station. They 219 00:13:24,113 --> 00:13:27,537 weren't allowed actually on the platform. I don't know about 220 00:13:27,717 --> 00:13:32,203 Willie Spier because at that time he had been taken off for 221 00:13:32,263 --> 00:13:36,529 slave labour. The children would've boarded the train. 222 00:13:37,069 --> 00:13:41,291 During the train ride, the emotions were very tense. The 223 00:13:41,311 --> 00:13:45,553 police boarded the train, that was terrifying. Some of the 224 00:13:45,593 --> 00:13:47,173 children's luggage was searched. 225 00:13:47,614 --> 00:13:50,705 JACKIE STEINHARDT: They were allowed to take a mug, food for 226 00:13:50,705 --> 00:13:53,496 the journey, basically sandwiches and nothing extra. 227 00:13:55,336 --> 00:13:58,659 MARGARET SPIER: But as soon as the SS got off the train and the 228 00:13:58,879 --> 00:14:03,343 train went from Germany into Holland, the emotions on the 229 00:14:03,724 --> 00:14:08,428 train lightened enormously. I recall dad saying that they said 230 00:14:08,468 --> 00:14:13,873 hurrah and great fun. From the hook of Holland, they took the 231 00:14:14,393 --> 00:14:17,176 night boat to Harwich. 232 00:14:20,152 --> 00:14:26,918 I do have here dad's ticket for the SS Prague. Dad was issued 233 00:14:26,938 --> 00:14:33,544 with a second class ticket on 15th March 1939. On the journey 234 00:14:33,945 --> 00:14:39,029 across the channel, the sea was very rough and there was a very 235 00:14:39,269 --> 00:14:44,995 sick smell down in the berth of the ship, so dad spent a lot of 236 00:14:45,015 --> 00:14:46,436 his time on deck. 237 00:14:47,876 --> 00:14:50,378 DIANE KENWOOD: After arriving on British soil, there was a final 238 00:14:50,458 --> 00:14:53,621 train to Liverpool Street Station in London, the hub for 239 00:14:53,681 --> 00:14:57,444 Kindertransport arrivals. But as the children took in this new 240 00:14:57,504 --> 00:15:00,507 country for the first time, their initial impressions were 241 00:15:00,867 --> 00:15:01,688 somewhat mixed. 242 00:15:02,710 --> 00:15:04,752 JEREMY STEINHARDT: I've got one or two little quotes. Hans 243 00:15:04,812 --> 00:15:09,136 Bodenheimer was one of the boys. "My first impression was, 244 00:15:09,476 --> 00:15:12,298 so this is England. Look at the women and all the makeup they're 245 00:15:12,338 --> 00:15:14,060 wearing and they smoked.". 246 00:15:15,721 --> 00:15:18,304 JACKIE STEINHARDT: Liverpool Street Station was noisy and 247 00:15:18,344 --> 00:15:22,607 chaotic and a lot of children being processed, and they were 248 00:15:22,627 --> 00:15:25,690 lucky in the sense that they had a coach waiting for them there. 249 00:15:26,991 --> 00:15:32,671 That then brought them to Waddesdon where they were met by 250 00:15:32,851 --> 00:15:36,032 somebody called Mrs. Court at the Cedars. 251 00:15:38,273 --> 00:15:40,594 DIANE KENWOOD: For the next part of our story, we'll find out 252 00:15:40,614 --> 00:15:43,355 what happened when the Cedar children and their guardians, 253 00:15:43,475 --> 00:15:47,757 Mr. and Mrs. Steinhardt, arrived in England as Holocaust refugees 254 00:15:47,897 --> 00:15:52,523 in 1939. Our next stop is a short distance from Waddesdon 255 00:15:52,563 --> 00:15:55,764 village through the scenic Aylesbury Vale to Waddesdon 256 00:15:55,844 --> 00:15:59,385 Manor, former home of the couple who made the children's escape 257 00:15:59,445 --> 00:16:02,286 possible, James and Dorothy de Rothschild. 258 00:16:05,707 --> 00:16:10,829 We've driven up the winding road to get to the manor, and here it 259 00:16:10,989 --> 00:16:16,375 is. Oh my goodness me! It's like coming across a French chateau 260 00:16:16,475 --> 00:16:19,746 in the middle of the English countryside. It's a big honey 261 00:16:19,746 --> 00:16:24,137 coloured building with probably the most bonkers selection of 262 00:16:24,297 --> 00:16:28,738 rooftop turrets, spires, chimneys that I can possibly 263 00:16:28,798 --> 00:16:29,198 imagine. 264 00:16:32,759 --> 00:16:34,100 Hello, Colette. Nice to meet you. 265 00:16:34,100 --> 00:16:35,080 COLETTE: Very nice to meet you too. 266 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:35,980 DIANE KENWOOD: Tell us what you do here. 267 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:37,621 COLETTE: I'm senior collection manager. 268 00:16:38,241 --> 00:16:39,621 DIANE KENWOOD: Can we have a look inside the amazing 269 00:16:39,661 --> 00:16:40,242 building, please? 270 00:16:40,242 --> 00:16:40,722 COLETTE: Yes, yes. 271 00:16:44,962 --> 00:16:47,804 DIANE KENWOOD: Good heavens, look at this dining room. It's 272 00:16:47,804 --> 00:16:52,729 an astoundingly ornate room with marble on the walls and huge 273 00:16:52,809 --> 00:16:56,582 tapestries inset into the marble and an enormous oval table in 274 00:16:56,582 --> 00:16:59,394 the middle with two giant chandeliers. 275 00:16:59,855 --> 00:17:03,117 COLETTE: The interesting thing to try and imagine is that at 276 00:17:03,137 --> 00:17:06,660 about the same time that the Cedar children were coming from 277 00:17:06,740 --> 00:17:10,944 Germany, James and Dorothy, like many owners of large country 278 00:17:11,024 --> 00:17:16,125 houses, had packed away their collections and hosted groups of 279 00:17:16,607 --> 00:17:20,659 evacuees from London, and these were set up as nurseries with 280 00:17:20,940 --> 00:17:21,542 little beds. 281 00:17:22,458 --> 00:17:25,339 DIANE KENWOOD: James and Dorothy were extraordinarily generous, 282 00:17:25,900 --> 00:17:29,301 not just with their home, but also with their care for all 283 00:17:29,341 --> 00:17:29,902 these children. 284 00:17:30,122 --> 00:17:32,563 COLETTE: Yes, yes. But the very, very special thing about James 285 00:17:32,563 --> 00:17:36,064 and Dorothy is they're setting up mechanisms to be able to 286 00:17:36,084 --> 00:17:40,046 bring children from Germany. The Cedars, the house in the village 287 00:17:40,286 --> 00:17:44,428 had been built as a maternity home. It was an opportunity to 288 00:17:44,969 --> 00:17:50,080 repurpose it as a home for a group of people. I am now going 289 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:53,870 to take you into the panelled room and we have some papers and 290 00:17:53,870 --> 00:17:55,815 material to look at and talk about. 291 00:18:00,090 --> 00:18:01,471 DIANE KENWOOD: Fantastic. Hi Catherine. Nice to meet you. 292 00:18:01,471 --> 00:18:01,831 CATHERINE TAYLOR: Hello. 293 00:18:01,831 --> 00:18:03,192 DIANE KENWOOD: Your job here at Waddesdon is... 294 00:18:03,332 --> 00:18:04,954 CATHERINE TAYLOR: I'm the head of archives and records. 295 00:18:05,014 --> 00:18:06,955 DIANE KENWOOD: I know you've got some to share with us. First of 296 00:18:06,955 --> 00:18:09,157 all, I want to say hello to Margaret. Nice to meet you, 297 00:18:09,197 --> 00:18:11,699 Margaret. Now you are the daughter of one of the Cedar 298 00:18:11,719 --> 00:18:12,099 Boys. 299 00:18:12,099 --> 00:18:14,601 MARGARET SPIER: I'm the daughter of Jack Spier, who was known as 300 00:18:14,801 --> 00:18:15,962 Hans Johann Spier. 301 00:18:16,142 --> 00:18:18,044 DIANE KENWOOD: Fantastic. Well, it's... Up on the top floor, 302 00:18:18,244 --> 00:18:21,166 head archivist Catherine Taylor has delved into Waddesdon 303 00:18:21,226 --> 00:18:24,849 Manor's extensive records. Helped by descendants, Jackie, 304 00:18:24,969 --> 00:18:28,563 Jeremy, and Margaret, we can piece together a vivid picture 305 00:18:28,603 --> 00:18:32,054 of life for the Cedar children refugees after they arrived in 306 00:18:32,054 --> 00:18:32,384 the UK. 307 00:18:35,186 --> 00:18:38,067 Let's get stuck into these fantastic archive pieces. 308 00:18:39,107 --> 00:18:41,188 CATHERINE TAYLOR: The first thing I have here, it's called a 309 00:18:41,228 --> 00:18:44,369 diet sheet. What they were fed for the first two weeks, they 310 00:18:44,409 --> 00:18:48,191 were in Waddesdon. I imagine that it must be very different 311 00:18:48,251 --> 00:18:51,412 to what they were used to eating in Frankfurt. 312 00:18:52,313 --> 00:18:54,494 DIANE KENWOOD: Jeremy, could you read out a few examples of what 313 00:18:54,534 --> 00:18:55,194 they did have? 314 00:18:56,374 --> 00:18:59,615 JEREMY STEINHARDT: Irish stew for dinner, potatoes, leeks, and 315 00:18:59,675 --> 00:19:04,937 treacle tart, beef sausages, Savoy’s, rice, and prunes. It's 316 00:19:04,937 --> 00:19:06,518 a little bit like school dinners, isn't it? 317 00:19:06,538 --> 00:19:06,838 DIANE KENWOOD: It is. 318 00:19:07,118 --> 00:19:07,598 JEREMY STEINHARDT: What we had. 319 00:19:08,039 --> 00:19:09,919 CATHERINE TAYLOR: When you look at it, you really can see that 320 00:19:10,279 --> 00:19:14,921 feeding this many extra mouths was a challenge initially. It's 321 00:19:15,001 --> 00:19:16,922 not a very varied diet. 322 00:19:19,694 --> 00:19:22,358 DIANE KENWOOD: Hundreds of miles away from home, the strange food 323 00:19:22,418 --> 00:19:25,222 wasn't the only new thing the children had to quickly get used 324 00:19:25,242 --> 00:19:28,887 to in order to assimilate into their new country. They weren't 325 00:19:28,927 --> 00:19:32,372 allowed to speak their mother tongue German and had to quickly 326 00:19:32,452 --> 00:19:35,136 learn English, and then there was their new shared 327 00:19:35,156 --> 00:19:36,578 accommodation to adjust to. 328 00:19:38,690 --> 00:19:42,273 Among the Cedar Boys was Uri Sella, who later wrote about his 329 00:19:42,333 --> 00:19:45,176 first impressions of the home in Waddesdon village as an 330 00:19:45,196 --> 00:19:48,118 eight-year-old boy. Jackie, I think you have a record of what 331 00:19:48,118 --> 00:19:50,120 the first impressions of that house were. 332 00:19:50,641 --> 00:19:52,743 JACKIE STEINHARDT: Uri says, " With our small suitcases in 333 00:19:52,783 --> 00:19:55,645 hand, we followed Hugo and Lilly through the wrought iron gates 334 00:19:55,985 --> 00:19:59,989 and up the path. Waiting at the front door to greet us warmly, 335 00:20:00,049 --> 00:20:03,574 was Mrs. Court, the wife of the gamekeeper. She took us to our 336 00:20:03,594 --> 00:20:05,075 rooms where everything had been readied. 337 00:20:05,755 --> 00:20:08,958 There were seven bedrooms upstairs. My room, which I was 338 00:20:08,958 --> 00:20:12,541 to share with five other boys, was a large bay window room that 339 00:20:12,541 --> 00:20:15,984 had been neatly laid out with six beds and a row of six small 340 00:20:16,044 --> 00:20:21,649 wash basins. We went downstairs with our shoes clattering loudly 341 00:20:21,669 --> 00:20:23,731 on the uncarpeted floors. 342 00:20:25,052 --> 00:20:28,414 Our sitting room had a table big enough for everyone, and there 343 00:20:28,414 --> 00:20:31,781 were lockers that had been prepared. High up on a shelf was 344 00:20:31,781 --> 00:20:34,903 a Bakelite radio that in the months and years ahead would be 345 00:20:34,903 --> 00:20:36,103 our central source of news. 346 00:20:36,964 --> 00:20:40,627 The kitchen consisted of three rooms, the first room where all 347 00:20:40,627 --> 00:20:43,548 the food was prepared, and a second room, the scullery with a 348 00:20:43,568 --> 00:20:47,431 stone floor and a large Belfast sink. We soon got to know this 349 00:20:47,491 --> 00:20:50,653 room very well because a rota was drawn up for us to wash the 350 00:20:50,693 --> 00:20:55,056 dishes and dry them. There were mountains of pots and pans. ". 351 00:20:57,077 --> 00:21:01,798 DIANE KENWOOD: In September 1939, World War II began, and in 352 00:21:01,798 --> 00:21:04,993 the midst of these extraordinary circumstances, the Cedar 353 00:21:05,053 --> 00:21:08,237 children were growing up. They were helped by the close 354 00:21:08,277 --> 00:21:11,202 friendships they formed and making the most of the freedom 355 00:21:11,262 --> 00:21:12,824 of playtime in the countryside. 356 00:21:15,700 --> 00:21:17,161 What have we got to look at now, Catherine? 357 00:21:17,421 --> 00:21:19,121 CATHERINE TAYLOR: I've got photos of two of the boys 358 00:21:19,301 --> 00:21:23,863 holding chickens in 1940, which perhaps shows part of what 359 00:21:23,903 --> 00:21:25,044 day-to-day life was like. 360 00:21:25,044 --> 00:21:28,245 MARGARET SPIER: Can I tell you a few things that happened just 361 00:21:28,305 --> 00:21:32,227 every day? The chickens were kept in the orchard, and every 362 00:21:32,347 --> 00:21:35,028 morning and evening before and after school, the boys would 363 00:21:35,108 --> 00:21:38,629 collect the eggs. At the end of the garden, there was a field in 364 00:21:38,649 --> 00:21:42,511 which a horse was kept and the boys would climb over the fence 365 00:21:42,511 --> 00:21:46,941 and try to ride the horse bareback before being found out. 366 00:21:47,641 --> 00:21:51,923 Then on another occasion, they started to dig a very large hole 367 00:21:51,923 --> 00:21:54,765 in the back garden, and when they were asked what they were 368 00:21:54,785 --> 00:21:58,066 doing, they replied that they were trying to dig to Australia. 369 00:22:00,307 --> 00:22:03,129 DIANE KENWOOD: Outside of their home, the group integrated into 370 00:22:03,129 --> 00:22:06,770 the local community. The children did well at school, and 371 00:22:06,770 --> 00:22:09,592 for the first time in years, they could play with non-Jewish 372 00:22:09,652 --> 00:22:10,052 children. 373 00:22:11,072 --> 00:22:14,054 MARGARET SPIER: On the first day of the boys being at the Cedars, 374 00:22:14,094 --> 00:22:17,297 the boys were kicking a football around on the front lawn. The 375 00:22:17,317 --> 00:22:19,979 local boys came to see what was going on in their little 376 00:22:20,019 --> 00:22:24,092 village. When it was time for dinner, the local boys said, " 377 00:22:24,092 --> 00:22:27,545 See you tomorrow." The Cedar Boys were ecstatic. They were so 378 00:22:27,645 --> 00:22:31,028 excited that someone who was not Jewish wanted to see them 379 00:22:31,088 --> 00:22:31,448 tomorrow. 380 00:22:33,024 --> 00:22:35,125 DIANE KENWOOD: The community even stepped forward to offer 381 00:22:35,185 --> 00:22:38,266 their homes to the children. A rota to stay with foster 382 00:22:38,286 --> 00:22:41,688 families in the village was very popular as it offered the boys 383 00:22:41,788 --> 00:22:44,429 respite from the more institutional children's home 384 00:22:44,869 --> 00:22:47,791 into the warm family environment they desperately missed. 385 00:22:48,091 --> 00:22:50,712 JACKIE STEINHARDT: Uri stayed with Nurse Edwards who he 386 00:22:51,332 --> 00:22:57,415 really, really loved, and they treated him like a son. She also 387 00:22:57,475 --> 00:23:00,548 took them on holiday to Llandudno, a little group of 388 00:23:00,608 --> 00:23:04,311 them, so they were very, very good to the boys. 389 00:23:05,091 --> 00:23:07,032 DIANE KENWOOD: The group of refugee children had made 390 00:23:07,092 --> 00:23:10,934 remarkable progress adjusting to their new life in England. But 391 00:23:10,934 --> 00:23:14,636 the shadow that constantly hung over all of them was what was 392 00:23:14,676 --> 00:23:17,938 happening to their families as the atrocities of the Holocaust 393 00:23:18,058 --> 00:23:19,379 worsened in Europe. 394 00:23:22,241 --> 00:23:25,302 Even for Helga and Lore who'd managed to escape with their 395 00:23:25,362 --> 00:23:28,144 parents, tragedy struck the family. 396 00:23:29,116 --> 00:23:34,320 HELGA STEINHARDT: My father died in 1942 as a result of his being 397 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:39,164 tortured in the concentration camp, and after that period, my 398 00:23:39,224 --> 00:23:41,126 mother had to carry on her own. 399 00:23:42,987 --> 00:23:45,509 DIANE KENWOOD: After World War II began, communication with 400 00:23:45,569 --> 00:23:50,473 home became increasingly sparse, and for some children it stopped 401 00:23:50,673 --> 00:23:54,316 altogether. For many of the Cedar children, they wouldn't 402 00:23:54,416 --> 00:23:57,799 find out what had happened to their families until towards the 403 00:23:57,979 --> 00:23:58,680 end of the war. 404 00:24:00,860 --> 00:24:03,667 Your father's family were all left behind in Germany, 405 00:24:03,727 --> 00:24:04,128 Margaret. 406 00:24:04,288 --> 00:24:07,441 MARGARET SPIER: They all perished, yes. Whilst dad was 407 00:24:07,501 --> 00:24:11,064 here in the village, he did have communication with his parents, 408 00:24:11,405 --> 00:24:16,229 and later on, he received what was to be his last 409 00:24:16,249 --> 00:24:21,074 communications from the German Red Cross and it was received in 410 00:24:21,214 --> 00:24:25,938 May 1942. It had taken about a month for the telegram to arrive 411 00:24:25,938 --> 00:24:29,441 in England and it was usual to write on the back of the 412 00:24:29,662 --> 00:24:32,164 telegram to reply to the sender. 413 00:24:32,852 --> 00:24:37,436 But my father knew that his parents were going away and my 414 00:24:37,476 --> 00:24:41,939 father knew what going away meant. My father kept hold of 415 00:24:41,959 --> 00:24:45,582 this telegram throughout his life and kept it very close to 416 00:24:45,722 --> 00:24:52,407 him, and here it is. "Beloved Hans, letter received today. We 417 00:24:52,467 --> 00:24:55,389 approve of your choice of being baker and confectioner. 418 00:24:55,930 --> 00:25:00,410 Beautiful. Be well-behaved and faithful to your employer and 419 00:25:00,470 --> 00:25:04,992 all people. Work hard and be supportive to all. Heartfelt 420 00:25:05,052 --> 00:25:05,712 greetings.". 421 00:25:07,773 --> 00:25:10,514 DIANE KENWOOD: The thing about them all is having suffered this 422 00:25:10,614 --> 00:25:15,237 extraordinarily traumatic and difficult experience, they did 423 00:25:15,317 --> 00:25:18,818 manage to go on and lead fulfilled and fulfilling lives, 424 00:25:18,898 --> 00:25:22,080 and that's in itself a truly remarkable thing. 425 00:25:23,828 --> 00:25:26,329 The next artifact moves us on quite a long way, doesn't it, 426 00:25:26,389 --> 00:25:26,790 Catherine? 427 00:25:27,170 --> 00:25:30,131 CATHERINE TAYLOR: Yes, it takes us nearly 40 years from the end 428 00:25:30,151 --> 00:25:34,714 of the war. It's the article in the New York Times from July 429 00:25:35,054 --> 00:25:41,838 28th, 1983. The headline is, "15 who fled Nazis as boys hold a 430 00:25:42,258 --> 00:25:45,980 reunion" and it talks about the reunion they had here, and 431 00:25:45,980 --> 00:25:49,222 there's a picture here of Dorothy and members of the Cedar 432 00:25:49,242 --> 00:25:52,624 Boys and Girls outside the Cedars in 1983. 433 00:25:53,060 --> 00:25:54,461 DIANE KENWOOD: Jackie, what did your mum go on to do? 434 00:25:56,001 --> 00:25:58,602 JACKIE STEINHARDT: My mother became a teacher. She went to 435 00:25:58,622 --> 00:26:03,383 teacher training college and met my father. He was very 436 00:26:03,444 --> 00:26:05,904 persistent in cycling all the way from Leicester to 437 00:26:05,984 --> 00:26:09,946 Manchester. She worked hard. She had six children. When she was 438 00:26:10,086 --> 00:26:14,507 older, she began to translate for the Association Of Jewish 439 00:26:14,547 --> 00:26:16,648 Refugees up to the age of about 90. 440 00:26:19,244 --> 00:26:19,905 DIANE KENWOOD: What about your mum, Jeremy? 441 00:26:19,905 --> 00:26:21,825 JEREMY STEINHARDT: My mum did various things. She worked in an 442 00:26:21,865 --> 00:26:25,006 ammunition factory during the war, in a laboratory. That's 443 00:26:25,026 --> 00:26:29,667 where she met my dad in Manchester. She became very 444 00:26:29,707 --> 00:26:32,948 interested in art. She spent a lot of time making pots. She 445 00:26:33,008 --> 00:26:36,169 trained to be a teacher. She was a bit of a mover around, my mum, 446 00:26:36,249 --> 00:26:37,630 she didn't settle to things very well. 447 00:26:39,270 --> 00:26:41,991 When she was a bit older, she was quite active in supporting 448 00:26:41,991 --> 00:26:45,592 the Vietnamese boat people, the refugees that came over. 449 00:26:46,832 --> 00:26:48,994 DIANE KENWOOD: Your father was a baker, wasn't he, Margaret? 450 00:26:48,994 --> 00:26:52,337 MARGARET SPIER: Yes, he was master baker. My father finally 451 00:26:52,397 --> 00:26:57,162 left the Cedars on 8th September 1943 at the age of 15 and eight 452 00:26:57,242 --> 00:27:03,388 months. His first job was as an apprentice at WD South Bakers 453 00:27:03,428 --> 00:27:08,212 and Confectioners in Aylesbury. He went on to own his own 454 00:27:08,272 --> 00:27:13,228 business and expand the group into three bakery shops. Growing 455 00:27:13,268 --> 00:27:16,469 up, I remember the warmth at home, a place filled with love, 456 00:27:16,509 --> 00:27:20,070 smiles, food, and my father's great sense of humour. 457 00:27:22,071 --> 00:27:24,792 CATHERINE TAYLOR: I have the speech here that Dorothy gave on 458 00:27:24,852 --> 00:27:29,194 the occasion of the reunion, and Dorothy said, "How delighted my 459 00:27:29,254 --> 00:27:31,995 husband would've been that so many of you have made your way 460 00:27:32,015 --> 00:27:33,255 in the world so very well. 461 00:27:33,595 --> 00:27:37,156 It must have taken courage as well as resolution. "But my 462 00:27:37,216 --> 00:27:39,937 favourite thing in this speech is her first line, which says," 463 00:27:39,937 --> 00:27:43,719 I'm afraid you very grown up men will always remain Cedar Boys to 464 00:27:43,719 --> 00:27:51,541 me. "I think the best place to finish this morning is to go and 465 00:27:51,562 --> 00:27:54,823 look at the plaque that the boys unveiled. If you just head out 466 00:27:55,103 --> 00:27:58,064 to the parterre and find red line step. 467 00:28:06,108 --> 00:28:09,250 DIANE KENWOOD: We've come past beautiful, vast, planted formal 468 00:28:09,290 --> 00:28:12,871 gardens to a quiet little corner, and there's something 469 00:28:13,212 --> 00:28:16,893 very special here. Margaret, read us what it says on this 470 00:28:16,953 --> 00:28:17,814 plaque. " 471 00:28:17,814 --> 00:28:20,675 MARGARET SPIER: The plaque is dedicated to the revered memory 472 00:28:20,895 --> 00:28:24,477 of Mr. and Mrs. James de Rothschild by the Cedar Boys and 473 00:28:24,497 --> 00:28:27,719 Girls in gratitude for the sanctuary at the time of 474 00:28:27,759 --> 00:28:30,120 conflict, 1939.". 475 00:28:31,004 --> 00:28:34,388 DIANE KENWOOD: I have one last question for each of you. Why do 476 00:28:34,408 --> 00:28:38,613 you feel that it's important that the story of the Cedar Boys 477 00:28:38,613 --> 00:28:40,876 and Girls is preserved and told? 478 00:28:44,340 --> 00:28:47,503 JEREMY STEINHARDT: Well, I think it's essentially a lesson from 479 00:28:47,563 --> 00:28:51,697 history and I know there are lots of lessons, but you can't 480 00:28:51,817 --> 00:28:54,678 afford for any of them to disappear, so we've got to keep 481 00:28:54,698 --> 00:28:55,238 that alive. 482 00:28:55,819 --> 00:28:56,239 DIANE KENWOOD: Jackie. 483 00:28:56,799 --> 00:28:59,500 JACKIE STEINHARDT: This is their story. But there are so many 484 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:06,402 other refugees in the world who deserve tremendous respect and 485 00:29:07,063 --> 00:29:10,404 hopefully we treat them in the same way. 486 00:29:11,372 --> 00:29:12,253 DIANE KENWOOD: What about you, Margaret? 487 00:29:12,713 --> 00:29:15,595 MARGARET SPIER: My father would have been very happy to share 488 00:29:15,615 --> 00:29:20,979 his experiences. He was always very grateful to England being 489 00:29:21,179 --> 00:29:27,703 his sanctuary, and he was very thankful for surviving the war 490 00:29:27,723 --> 00:29:30,685 and not being one of the six million Jews who died in the 491 00:29:30,705 --> 00:29:31,406 Holocaust. 492 00:29:31,666 --> 00:29:35,708 I mean, each time I go back to Germany with my sisters, we 493 00:29:35,869 --> 00:29:39,211 always ask to meet up with the school children over there so 494 00:29:39,251 --> 00:29:44,165 that we can tell our story. They often say to us afterwards that 495 00:29:44,205 --> 00:29:47,250 they didn't realize that they were walking on pavements 496 00:29:47,390 --> 00:29:48,592 containing such history. 497 00:30:00,128 --> 00:30:02,310 DIANE KENWOOD: Thank you for listening to this episode of the 498 00:30:02,330 --> 00:30:05,713 National Trust Podcast and a very special thank you to the 499 00:30:05,733 --> 00:30:09,156 families of the Cedar Boys and Girls for sharing their stories. 500 00:30:09,756 --> 00:30:12,899 If you'd like to find out more about the Kindertransport, you 501 00:30:12,919 --> 00:30:16,122 could visit the Association Of Jewish Refugees website. 502 00:30:16,862 --> 00:30:20,005 If you'd like to find out more about Waddesdon Manor and other 503 00:30:20,045 --> 00:30:23,308 places with Jewish heritage connections, please do look up 504 00:30:23,348 --> 00:30:27,311 the Jewish Country Houses Research Project online or go to 505 00:30:27,331 --> 00:30:30,218 our episode show notes where you'll find more information and 506 00:30:30,278 --> 00:30:34,084 resource links. From me, Diane Kenwood. Goodbye.