Welcome to the Entrepreneurial Leap Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Dubay. For context, this podcast is inspired by the book Entrepreneurial Leap by Gino Wickman. Gino is the founder of E o S Worldwide and an author with over 2 million copies of his books sold worldwide. Now, in his next phase, he's taking his passion for helping entrepreneurs by partnering with five equally passionate, successful entrepreneurs, myself included, who have created the E LEAP Academy, where we teach the content from the book in a one year program guaranteed to increase the success of early stage businesses. Now, a quick note about me, I've been an entrepreneur since the age of 14. When I started my first business selling Blow Pop Lollipops outta my locker with my best friend, I ran a company that I sold to a public company and later bought back. I'm an author, speaker, host of an annual leadership retreat, and I'm partners in several other businesses.

I'll be your host for the Entrepreneurial LEAP Podcast, where every other week you will be hearing life stories from successful entrepreneurs who took the leap into entrepreneurship. You will learn from their mistakes and successes and be inspired as you move forward on your journey. Now, before I introduce my guest, I'm going to share with you a bit about Ewe Academy. The Entrepreneurial Leap Academy provides an immersive nine month experience for new entrepreneurs with a focus on the three Cs, clarity, competence, and community. Let's start with the first C Clarity. You'll learn to be clear about who you are, what you want from your business, and how to get it. The next C confidence, you will learn to be confident you are on the right path, equipped with powerful mindset tools. The last C connected you will become connected to a community of entrepreneurs just like you. Now all participants receive four full day in-person classes led by experience entrepreneurs to equip you with the tools and strategies necessary to build a successful business. The Academy's dynamic community connects participants with a tribe of like-minded individuals for support and networking opportunities during in between classes. Students also receive a seasoned mentor offering personalized guidance and expertise to help you navigate the challenges of entrepreneurship. To start building the business of your dreams, visit our website@eleap.com. Again, that's e leap.com. There you can learn more about and sign up for the next Entrepreneurial LEAP Academy.

Today's guest is Dr. Doug Brackman. After achieving a dual PhD in 2002, in both industrial organizational psychology and clinical psychology, Dr. Doug struck out to research the components of powerful thought and action. Culminating in a very successful practice of highly driven leaders, Dr. Doug has used an integrated approach of meditation, biohacking and applied real world coaching to help thousands of people. He has been naturally drawn to the highly driven, often those on the spectrum of a D D and A D H T, like CEOs, business owners, and entrepreneurs. And for the last 10 years, he has worked exclusively with these amazing clients. Dr. Doug is a 20 plus year meditation practitioner and continuous student of the Rapid advances in science, explaining the benefits of specific types of meditation. He describes himself as a functional M r i geek and student of all spiritual practices and religions. He has authored a book Driven Understanding and harnessing the genetic gifts of entrepreneurs, Navy seals and professional athletes. And maybe you, it's a great book and I highly recommend you check it out. Now, if you're listening, you're likely one of the driven, as Doug likes to call it. And there were many nuggets of wisdom during our chat, and I know you're going to enjoy this conversation with Dr. Doug.

Doug, thank you for joining me today. You are one busy guy, so I am just so grateful for you taking the time to chat with us about your entrepreneurial journey. Well,

I'm honored to be here too, Rob. This is anything I can do to help you guys. I mean this, this my love for the population that you guys are working with and helping is, is been my life's work. So anyone who can help us, and I do mean us. This is the entrepreneurial shame-based people that we are, man, we need it. So

It's amazing. And you know, I'm just gonna hold up your book driven so everybody can see that, who is watching this on you on our YouTube channel. But for those of you that are listening, Dr. Doug has a wonderful book called Driven, and we always like to recommend that to anybody that we come into contact with. 'cause if you're listening, I think you, you fit the profile of being driven, and you'll learn a lot about that in this book. It's pretty amazing. But Doug, I always like to start with a quote and I just like to have you reflect just for a second when you hear it and let me know, let us know kind of what comes to mind for you. So this quote is short, it goes like this. It takes tremendous effort to have no effort. And that's an old saying in meditation practice. That

Is a very old saying in meditation practice. That is, yeah, you put Navy Seals in a functional m r I and they have a anterior single part of the brain that's willpower and PhD, Navy seal, whatever it, it takes it. It's a symbol that we can do a lot of things that we didn't want to do. So that's willpower. It's great effort, but they have the right side of their frontal lobe insular lit up, which means they really have a clear understanding why they're doing it. But you put a Buddhist funk, functional, m r i, you see the same big ball of energy in the interior cingulate, but they're left insular lights up, which is curiosity, which is openness, which is often associated with feelings of spirituality. So it takes tremendous effort to become completely curious and open. And that balancing between the left and right hemispheres is really the, the core of what I, what I teach in harnessing what it means to be driven. So it is a Navy Seals, you know, I know why I'm doing what I'm doing versus I'm not sure why I'm doing it, but I'm never gonna quit

That skillset. You know, particularly for the audience listening here as Elon Musk says, you know, starting a company is like chewing on glass while staring into the abyss of hell. It's,

And I work, I, I work the same groups of, you know, entrepreneurial startup hell. And it is there, there's a reason the types of people that I write about and, and I am, you know, we're the same ones that went west in the 1820s and, you know, why'd you go west? We, we had to. And so that, that effort, but as I always teach my entrepreneurs, yeah, you just don't go west. You figure out wagons and you talk to some people and you, you predict what season you're gonna do it. You don't just go. So I really appreciate, appreciate what you guys are doing with, with

Entrepreneurs. Oh, thank you.

You, you gotta have some forethought before you just start running west. Right. Indians will get you.

So I, I'm so curious. I loved, I would love to hear more about your entrepreneurial story. So can you share kind of how you got to where you are?

That's, yeah, it, it is a, it is a, it is an evolving process and, you know, some life changes that I'm going through here this past year is going to allow me to actually change some more, which I'm really, really excited about. But I, so Randy, Randy Kelly, he was my JI Con. He was a martial arts teacher of mine, and he and I was a clinical psychologist in a regular standard practice in San Diego, seeing clients on the hour and kind of taking what walked through the door, but working primarily in the addiction world. And so these addiction, genetics and what I write about and driven, going back to 1991 when I entered grad school, you know, the Time Magazine article came out about the dopamine receptor number two, and we found the alcoholism gene. And so it, it's been something I had been working on about this entrepreneurial mind.

It's what I call it. And this was 2000 12, 13, 10 plus years ago. And Randy and I were both Randy's a Navy seal sniper, and I had been shooting for most of my life, long range shooting, competitive long range shooting, 600,000 yard shooting. And I said, Hey, let's figure this out. Let's, let's take a bunch of entrepreneurs to get them to sit down and, and meditate. Let's pair it with long range shooting. And so he and I worked on this, this concept, you know, based on the practice of a keto, a ketos zen archery, you know, where they're shooting these little tiny targets long, long way away in a very dark room. And you're using your intuition. You're using all these things that, you know, meditative type things to, to master this art. So we started, we launched this business basically of, of doing retreats. You know, and this is just from, you know, 2012, 13, the internet was just rocking and rolling. I still had a pager. I mean, things were, things were different.

And just by chance, Jason Gagner and Clayee Bear came to one of my shooting retreats and these guys, you know, ran one of the best masterminds in the, in the country. And it, it, you know, clay Hebert was Seth Godin's marketing person. I mean, he worked with Seth Godin. And so they were entrepreneurial in the big world of entrepreneurs. They came to the shooting retreat and they're waiting for the pitch at the end, you know, where, here's my mastermind, here's the upsell, here's how I'm gonna, you know, keep you on it. I got nothing. I didn't even have a webpage. And they looked at me and said, what the hell are you doing? Like, what, what are you doing? What this is, this was the most amazing, magical experiences I've ever had, and you've just changed my life and now you're just gonna let us walk away.

Like, yeah. Like, whoa, you gotta scale. Like, what's wrong with you? And so they invited us, Randy and, and, and I myself, to come teach meditation at his mastermind, mastermind talks. And it was the first time I walked into a room with 150 entrepreneurs and I had no idea that world existed. And it was like, I was home. He was like, oh, these are my people. These, these, they get me, you know, we're all, you know, it's a room full of a d d crazy. And, you know, Tim Ferriss was in the room, Tucker Max was in the room, and Tucker, you know, was running back, he was booking the box back in the day and he says, dude, write a book. And so found, you know, somebody make me a webpage. And, and the, the journey started to really, you know, let myself outta my, as I always joked about, you know, I, I hid in an office largely because of imposter syndrome and feeling like I wasn't, you know, imposter syndrome for those two, don't really understand it.

It, it's, the outer world is actually better than how I feel about it. So, you know, I got two PhDs largely 'cause I'm so insecure. It's totally stupid to have two PhDs. I mean, that's stupid. That's it. Like, come on. But it tells me about, you know, the personality type that I am is this, I'm driven. And so I am going to overachieve, hoping to get rid of this feeling that I'm not enough, which goes to those early genetics I talked about, you know, feeling bored. It feels like there's something missing or wrong always in my world. And we tend to, as drivens make an identity outta that. So there's something missing around with me, but maybe if I get two PhDs, maybe if I have a big car or you know, whatever, this feeling will go away. And I can tell you two PhDs didn't make me feel smart and, but I, I was really scared to step, you know, make the entrepreneurial leap of just step into the world. And so it, it, you know, I was kind of dragged into it, to tell you the truth. And, and still, you know, this reluctant messiah model that, you know, I kind of archetype I fit. And it, it's despite me, you know, it's, it's grown past me. So it's, I'm excited about what, what the potential is, but I'm still very reluctant to really take the big leap.

What a journey. What a journey. Yeah. You know, we talk a lot these days with entrepreneurs who say, you know, especially obviously young ones, should I go to college? Is that worth it? Should I not go to college? I obviously you went to college, you have two PhDs. What are your thoughts on that?

Good question. It, it, I've got my daughter's 16 year old daughter's boyfriend, and I just had this conversation. He's very entrepreneurial, very driven. And he's, you know, he's, he's been hustling basketball cards and hockey cards since he was nine. This kid

Is like, I think he's got the gene.

I think he's got this, you know, kind of drive to, and he's a hustler. And it's, you know, will college teach you anything? And, you know, most important thing college will teach you is how to do things you don't wanna do. And that I think as an entrepreneur is, is incredibly important to know there's other ways to do that, you know, but learning how you, you know, you, you have to do things you don't want to do, you don't feel like doing. And so that skillset, you know, has to be learned one way or another. And so it, it's imperative. College is a, it depends on the college, but if you're going there to learn entrepreneurship, you're wasting your time. You go there to learn business accounting. I think it's incredibly important to know how to use a p and l. I think it's incredibly important to understand basic business numbers, you know, and, and how to measure your company success in reality and not use your feelings for that, use your KPIs and everything else. So I think there, there is some real value, practical value in going, but I'd be highly selective in, you know, the courses you take and, and, and learn something that you're gonna use. Yeah,

Yeah. You know, we always like to ask entrepreneurs who have been through some stuff, did you ever have a time where it was like, this is a nightmare, and conversely, this is a dream. So to either of those resonate, I mean, if you have a story for both, great. But you could pick one.

So it, it is a, it is a teach in my, you know, in all my content, I always talk about heaven and hell. There's heaven realms where you are, you're lost in the fantasy about how great it can be and how great it really is. And you're, you're not seeing any snakes anywhere. Everything's a stick. But then your mood changes or your feeling changes. You start to get spun into fear, largely fear, and then everything becomes a snake. And you know that, that every circumstance you're in is both, you know, and that's the old saying about Chinese symbols of danger. And, you know, error and torment is also a very similar symbol as opportunity. And so it is the way you perceive things. And that over my time, you know, the, it's my old joke, you know, the worst things that ever happened to me turned out to be the best. And so I've got stories around, yeah, I mean, just, you know, I'm a high school dropout that lived in a car. I'm not kidding you. I, at 16 I dropped outta high school, and you know, if you ever have the opportunity to smoke cocaine, it's a very, very quick ride to hell.

But two PhDs later and a career later, based upon understanding myself because of those experiences, it's turned into heaven. So I think it is, it's always both. And so it, it's, but waiting in the hallway when you're sitting in hell waiting for the other side to illuminate itself is, it's no fun particularly. And, but that, that always begs the question for meditation. You know, what I teach in meditation is, is reality checking your central nervous system. And so it is, it's, we're a fear-based animal. And so we are wired to see things as snakes and being able to take a pause, step back and actually, is it a snake or a stick? What makes it a snake? And, and being able to accurately discern through your emotions reality. And that's called emotional intelligence. And it's the best predictor of success. And as entrepreneurs of being able to, and I see it way too often is, you know, the, the, I call it narcissistic fantasy of success of, oh my God, I've got the greatest idea and it's gonna be awesome.

I just need to do these three things. And they have no clue about how hard it is to actually, as Elon Musk says, I mean, you are, you have no idea what you're about to do. You're, you're, well, we're just gotta go west and we'll get there and then build a farm. And it's like, you get Donner past coming, brother, you, you know, you're gonna be eating each other if you're not careful. So that ability to actually know we're not in reality, largely because of our emotion. And so being able to see through your emotion is one of the most important things I can teach young entrepreneurs of, of really the, yes, it can be great, but you're not seeing the big picture and well, it all just sucks or you're not seeing truth either. And so it's that ability to take that pause and actually, you know, like I said earlier, you know, look at through numbers, look at your KPIs, and we want things to work so bad that we are scared to actually see how it's not working.

Yeah. That's the, the shooting retreat's. One of the best ways that I teach this is the, we all want to hit a targeted a thousand yards. And it is a simple process that I teach. You know, I teach you how to shoot a target at 200 yards and you put your hand here, you do this, and then you bring the gun and then you follow this simple process. You hit the target, you do the same thing at a thousand, you'll hit the target. And it, it's that being held by your ambition, I need this to happen. Versus being led by your ambition to follow the process and that, you know, when you're too focused on the results. A classic example, and I don't care who you are, I got an example in my book about a Navy seal that was odd out shot by one of the first time shooter women.

He is the 25 year, 22 year Navy veteran, Navy seal veteran master marksman and all this other stuff. And this 80, this Olympic snowboarder badass navy, I mean, she was just a badass. First time she ever shot a gun, she goes walking back to the meditation cushion as you know, he's coming up and she raises four fingers and pumps her fist and she hit it four outta five times. And he, he looked and went, oh shit. He promptly got up to the target and missed the first shot and just went, oh. And so that, that being bound by the outcome, I need to hit it. So I'm not left with this feeling that I'm not good enough. Is this, you know, that's narcissism and that that is this driving force that most entrepreneurs get trapped into.

Yeah.

Where you, you, it's not about the results, but you need accurate measures of the results so you can assess the process.

And you know, and I say it every time I do these retreats is, you know, trust the process and a company is nothing other than building a bunch of processes. And you need outcomes to measure those processes. And you never can have a perfect outcome. It's not yes or no, it's a seven on a 10 scale. And it's like, yeah, we got it, but not per, you never hit the dead center of the target. So it is, you know, this ability to see that you need, you need outcomes, but they're not about you. They're not about your, your success or failure. They're about the process you're building. Yeah. And so it's a key takeaway for yeah, this assessment of are you in heaven or health? The answer's both, all

The answer is both. Can you talk a little about, I, I mentioned to you before we came on, you know, we talk a lot about six essential traits that an entrepreneur has. They are visionary, passionate, problem solver driven, risk taker, responsible. Two parts to this. Do you feel that you have those traits and do you feel these are important traits in the people that Yeah,

And so when I first wrote driven because of my, largely because of my imposter syndrome, I was scared that, you know, people would see it as a yes or a no question, are you driven yes or no? And so I created a, a statistically valid, spent a year and a bunch of money nationally norming my assessment that I got on my webpage about different types of drivens. And so, you know, visionary in in particular the, you see people, you know, coming outta e o s and everything else that I'm very familiar with, you see left hemisphere drivens, which are, you know, left hemisphere of the brain and you have a dominant left hemisphere are tend to be much better implementary integrators because they're much more logical, rational, linear, but they're still driven and they have the big picture thinking so they can get the multi variables.

Then I always joke 'cause I am a right hemisphere driven, which is the emotional visionary, and I can be lost in the clouds thinking about my visions all day. And so the point of all of those traits that you guys list is, is you can develop and manage them, obviously responsibility. You can work on these traits and develop, and as Carl Young said, just because you're a visionary, just because I'm right hemisphere dominant and that comes natural to me, I can develop my left hemisphere. And, you know, he, he conceptualized it, Earl Young conceptualized it as handedness. So yes, I'm right-handed or yes, I'm right-brained, but I can learn bat with my left hand. I can learn to, right, it's not as natural, but it's a skill that I can develop. But under stress, I'm still gonna go to my right hemi, you know, at least my vision's still intact. So yes, I hit all those traits and that, that to varying degrees and, and you know, that I developed them as along the

Way. Interesting. Yeah, no, I, I appreciate that answer. It's really interesting. I'd heard it said that way before in my many interviews, so thank you for that. And I'm curious too, a, as you've been, you know, going on this journey, have you had mentors that have been important to you? Do you think mentors are important,

Possibly the most important thing in an entrepreneur's world? Well, I'll say that affirming, it's one of my best mentors just to frame this has been my daughter Megan. And she's yeah, make me cry. She's taught me how to play. She's taught me all of these wonderful things that I didn't necessarily know I needed to learn. And so, you know, when the teacher, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. But it, it's look for mentors in anything that you're drawn, that you're attracted to and is, you know, and I always put my hand on my chest. 'cause it, it is something that your body needs to learn and learning to use that intuitive function.

And so am I, I'm always looking for a mentor and don't assume that they have to be some old gray-haired guy that had your business and and ran it through. That might help. And you might be lucky in that, that they actually have expertise, but that's not truly a mentor, that's more of a teacher. So they can teach you specific things, but a true mentor is somebody who, that somebody that is teaching me wisdom. Yeah. So it, it's a, it it's more of an attitude that I try to adopt. And I've had some phenomenal mentors and some of them, some of them I've called mentors, most of them I don't. So it's, I don't wanna put the pressure on them. Yeah,

That's good. I love that. But you, you recognize it in that way.

I recognize it as a, as a, in a, yeah. Something. Dr. Jeanie Hart, one of my early mentors, well she was one of my last professors, and she said that getting a PhD teaches you what true expertise is. And what true expertise is, is understanding how much you don't know about something, how much you really don't know about psychology. And the most important part of that is that you can then recognize that in others. And so a mentor is somebody to me that has great knowledge about something, but they have a continuous state of humility and learning in it. 'cause then the true mentorship is they're learning from me and I'm learning from them and we're learning something new together. And that is a, that I have soughted most of my life. Hmm. Whether it's a Navy seal or a, you know, four year old. It is, it is something that, yeah, I can't, I can't express how important that is in life.

We always talk about some must-dos that we recommend to early stage entrepreneurs. And when they're thinking about their business, and I really thought about this with you, you know, we encourage them to think about it in this way. The bigger the problem that you solve in the world, the more successful you'll be. And when I thought about the work that you're doing, it kind of resonated with me. And I'm wondering how you feel about that.

That's, that is a, so my work is all about helping entrepreneurs understand that the biggest problem they have is themselves. And if you can get that through your thick head that the only true problem you have is yourself, then it, it, it shifts this understanding that the problems aren't external to me. It's when I'm facing a problem on the outside, it's me with solving it. And how do I actually become curious? How do I actually see the problem in a new way that's on me? And that is something I can affect. And so it, it is a shift in that you really understanding is a, I think I said earlier, you know, the Chinese symbol for problem is opportunity. And it, it's one and the same. It's both Mm. At the same time. Yeah. And so getting that stable central nervous system to where you could see through your own fear and see through your own narcissist fantasy bss and oh, it's so great. And it's like, no, it's a lot of work. Oh, it sucks. No. And so hope that answer your question.

Yeah, it does. What about, and especially I was thinking a little bit about anyone who writes a book, you know, everybody's got an opinion on it, you know, and so we always talk about to our groups, listen, take criticism and doubt with a grain of salt. And I'm wondering how you feel about that.

Yeah, it, it, it is the most important thing that you can see, especially as a young entrepreneur, is everybody's biased and everybody's looking through their own eyes. And the example I give and driven is very simply, you know, the cup and handle that. You gimme a cup and it doesn't have a handle. And I see this cup and I hate cups without handles. And you are, you know, you are a jerk for doing that. My perception's accurate, my feelings about you are accurate and I'm just not seeing all the reality. And, you know, a relationship is literally being able to not say, well, I'm wrong. And you're right, it is, it's, it's both a six and a nine. And so when somebody criticizes you understand that yeah. That they're just seeing the handle from their side. But you want to see the handle from their side. And so it is, it is both, you know, you you take all opinions in, but you hold them very loosely

And you know, and they're right from their side. And so it, in taking into context their emotion and their, their fear or their competitive or you know, why are they saying this? And, but it's all valid unless they're just, you know, attacking to attack, which is fairly rare actually. It's, they got a point. And so understanding their point through the emotional hurt that they're gonna launch it in. So it, it's keep, keep shout out for meditation, being able to calm that central nervous system and say, man, you suck. But what did you say? It's that you, you need to be able to take it in. You know, I, I teach all of my guys that I work with to, to, you know, talk me out of this. What what am I not seeing here? Yeah. It, it's not a criticism of you as the person back to the results thing. It's really a criticism of the processes that you're not seeing. Yeah. And so it's, it is imperative to be able to hear them.

Another thing we talk about are nine stages that a business goes through. And one of the things I was curious about with you and your business is we talk about staying in your personal sweet spot. And I felt like with the work that you do, you probably get things coming at you, new opportunities, new things you could do with this. What if we did this? What if we did that partner with this one? You know, you would probably just have to like bat 'em away. So I'm just curious how you feel about that. You

See, yeah, clay, actually, one of my early mentors who, who drug me outta my office, he does a, a exercise with all of his clients called the perfect day. And what is your perfect day? You know, and that, that what I do, you know, spend time with my kids and then I see four or five clients and then I, you know, get the afternoon off and I get to go bass fishing in the evening and then I get to come home and spend some more time with my kids. And then, and it is a, as I always teach and driven in particular drivens, we are, we are hunters wired for the shiny, you know, there's more wooly mammoths over the next hill. And so we're always chasing that shiny object on the, on the horizon. But this capacity to understand there is no there, there, when you finally get to the next hill, it's not gonna feel with the way it felt when you were looking up the hill.

And so you're gonna look for the next hill and look, and I work with a lot of guys who miss life, absolutely miss life chasing shiny shit. And so, you know, staying in your lanes, your sweet spot, your your happy place or whatever, you know, acronym you want to give it, it's more of an awareness of in fact, to, you know, this, this what is driving me, is it this imaginary finish line that when I finally get to, I heard 10 million liquid in the bank and I can take 400 interest and sell it all and be quit and not do anything, sit on a beach. It's, it's like, yeah, you know what happens when you do? That's part of my doctoral dissertation with self-sabotage it lottery winners, guys who sell their companies same thing, two to three years later, they're miserable, they're empty, they are broke.

They are, they sabotage it because it, it is, you know, the metaphor that I give in the book, it's a, actually a Japanese column that I worked on for a long time. It's, the joke is, you know, it's a Cohen is, you know, when you finally get to the top of the a hundred foot pole, when you finally climb this pole and get to the top, what do you do next? And this, this, Hmm. And so Cohen's are Japanese riles designed to bind the monkey mind. But the, the answer finally came to me deep in a meditation retreat two years after working on the Cohen. And I laughed so hard. I nearly, I did, I separated my muscles from my rib cage. I mean, I was hysterically like crazy person laughing. 'cause the answer is, there truly is no pole. There truly is no pole.

And yet I was making this pole climbing exercise out of that damned cen. So it became very funny to me, and I say it in context to entrepreneurs and drivens like us, is that there really is no pole. But if I don't have a pole to climb, I'm miserable. But it's not about the end of, it's not about the top of the pole. It is being in that sweet spot of, you know, I I I can't retire. I can't, I don't want to retire. Right? But most of my days is not filled with work. Now know, I I've designed a life to where I make plenty of money and I have a beautiful life and I work with people that I really enjoy. And yes, I get lots of opportunity of this. I call 'em the scale pointers. You gotta, you know, scale porn where they're serious.

Oh my God, you gotta scale. You gotta scale, you gotta scale. And it, it's, why, why? Well, you, you, you, you should, no, you're climbing a pole, man. There is no there, there, you know, I take on 10 employees and do this and do that and do this and do this, you know, and, and you know, the lifestyle business comes and goes in the entrepreneur world. And it's something I've latched onto that now it today is not preparation for some of their day. This is your life. You're living it. And if you, you know, are waiting for the day to finally get here when you can relax, it never comes. This is it. And when you start to find, you know, I joke, you know, being balanced is death balancing. It's i n g you're constantly in this state, of course, correction if too much work, not enough, too much exercise, not enough, too much time with my wife, not enough.

And, and you know, that understanding that you are balancing, that you're constantly moving this rudder and seasons of your life, you know, with teenagers now, and they're driving and they're, my life is different than it was when they were little. Right. You know, so the balance has to change, but that sweet spot of of looking at your whole life perspective rather than just what I do. Yeah. You know, so it, it's a very important thing. I think it comes with age. But when you're, when you're in your twenties and you are on fire to, and you're not dating anybody and you're just, you know, you're working 80 hours a week and it doesn't, and you're, that's the season of your life and grind, get at it. You know? That's great. And so it, it's appreciate that it will change. You can't do that forever.

Yeah. That's so good, Doug. So much wisdom today.

That was fun. So much.

I so appreciate you taking the time to chat with me and have this wisdom brought out to our many listeners. I just so greatly appreciate

You. Anytime you want me back, say when I'll make Yeah, I'll

Do that. I will do that. Appreciate it, Rob. For sure. Good fun. And to all the amazing entrepreneurs listening today, I greatly appreciate you spending time with us and I wish you all much love and gratitude.