1 00:00:07,699 --> 00:00:10,439 JAMES GRASBY: Hello and welcome to the National Trust podcast. 2 00:00:10,500 --> 00:00:13,590 I'm James Grasby, building and landscapes curator for the 3 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:16,479 National Trust. And today, I'm in Suffolk in the east of 4 00:00:16,489 --> 00:00:20,030 England, to learn more about a discovery found under layers of 5 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:21,780 acidic sandy soil. 6 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:27,200 Some 1400 years ago, a community came together to haul a ship 7 00:00:27,209 --> 00:00:30,899 from a river within which they were to bury their King. And 8 00:00:30,909 --> 00:00:34,659 today we're going to reimagine what that final journey was 9 00:00:34,669 --> 00:00:35,430 really like. 10 00:00:42,020 --> 00:00:44,770 Now, I've arrived at a boatyard in Woodbridge and I can see 11 00:00:44,779 --> 00:00:48,029 across the river, the wooded banks beyond which are Sutton 12 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:52,790 Hoo where in 1939 a local archaeologist called Basil Brown 13 00:00:52,909 --> 00:00:56,759 uncovered the ghostly shape of an 86 ft oak ship that had been 14 00:00:56,770 --> 00:01:00,439 buried there. Now, inside the ship was a carefully curated 15 00:01:00,450 --> 00:01:04,190 burial chamber for a well respected King, King Redwald of 16 00:01:04,199 --> 00:01:05,440 the woofing dynasty. 17 00:01:06,309 --> 00:01:09,559 But why did they bury the ship and how did it get there? If I 18 00:01:09,569 --> 00:01:12,739 turn around, I can now see some large buildings that look like a 19 00:01:12,750 --> 00:01:15,779 cross between an airplane hanger and a warehouse and inside one 20 00:01:15,790 --> 00:01:19,269 of those buildings, there's a full size replica being built 21 00:01:19,279 --> 00:01:22,610 plank by plank, and that's going to help us answer some of these 22 00:01:22,620 --> 00:01:23,250 questions. 23 00:01:25,379 --> 00:01:26,449 JACQ BARNARD: Hi. Are you James? 24 00:01:26,529 --> 00:01:27,019 JAMES GRASBY: How do you do? 25 00:01:27,169 --> 00:01:29,610 JACQ BARNARD: I'm Jacq Barnard. I'm the project manager from the 26 00:01:29,620 --> 00:01:32,000 Sutton Hoo Ship's Company. Shall we go and have a look inside? 27 00:01:32,010 --> 00:01:32,839 JAMES GRASBY: Yes, please. 28 00:01:36,330 --> 00:01:45,650 That is an enormous boat. I had no idea how huge it is! 29 00:01:45,650 --> 00:01:48,569 We're looking at the side of this vessel and you've got the 30 00:01:48,580 --> 00:01:51,610 oak keel that runs the full length, but the principal shape 31 00:01:51,620 --> 00:01:55,339 is given by a superstructure which really defines the shape 32 00:01:55,349 --> 00:02:00,339 of this long, lean, sleek pointed at both ends, huge boat. 33 00:02:00,349 --> 00:02:04,830 I mean, I could park four family cars along the keel, nose to 34 00:02:04,839 --> 00:02:07,720 tail and still have room for a couple of minis at either end. 35 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:09,809 JACQ BARNARD: Well, I could take you up to one of our end 36 00:02:09,809 --> 00:02:12,800 platforms and we can have a look at it from above? 37 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:16,750 JAMES GRASBY: Right, we're just climbing up to an elevated 38 00:02:16,759 --> 00:02:20,679 platform that I guess is about 10 ft above the ground, and 39 00:02:20,690 --> 00:02:23,869 we're not even as high as the prow of this ship. 40 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:26,690 JACQ BARNARD: When you see it elevated and being built in this 41 00:02:26,699 --> 00:02:31,229 kind of magnitude, it is just breathtaking. Our principle here 42 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:34,460 is if we don't know what the Anglo Saxons done, we will 43 00:02:34,470 --> 00:02:37,869 always go back in time rather than forward. So the saw which 44 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:41,649 we knew the Romans used, wasn't used by the Anglo Saxons. So as 45 00:02:41,660 --> 00:02:45,639 much as possible, we are using their methods and their tools to 46 00:02:45,649 --> 00:02:50,639 try and understand exactly how they built this ship 1400 years 47 00:02:50,649 --> 00:02:50,899 ago. 48 00:02:50,910 --> 00:02:53,259 JAMES GRASBY: So whereabouts have you got to in the process 49 00:02:53,270 --> 00:02:55,130 of rebuilding this boat? 50 00:02:55,229 --> 00:02:58,369 JACQ BARNARD: Our plan is that we get two planks on a week, 51 00:02:58,380 --> 00:03:01,729 we're on track. So by the end of this year, we hope to have the 52 00:03:01,740 --> 00:03:04,539 whole hull planked so it would look like a ship, but it won't 53 00:03:04,550 --> 00:03:06,919 have any insides. So the following year will all be about 54 00:03:06,929 --> 00:03:09,929 making sure that the frames are in place, that we've worked out 55 00:03:09,940 --> 00:03:14,139 how the flooring will be fitted, how the seating will be put 56 00:03:14,149 --> 00:03:14,419 in... 57 00:03:14,429 --> 00:03:17,410 JAMES GRASBY: Very sort of dominant and striking feature 58 00:03:17,419 --> 00:03:21,149 about the design is this regular punctuation along the length of 59 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:23,330 the vessel of these metal rivets. 60 00:03:23,369 --> 00:03:25,470 JACQ BARNARD: You know, if, if it weren't for these rivets, we 61 00:03:25,479 --> 00:03:29,669 wouldn't be building this ship because when they excavated the 62 00:03:29,679 --> 00:03:33,139 site up at Sutton Hoo, it was the rivets that remained in the 63 00:03:33,149 --> 00:03:36,460 sand in the ground in the right places, which allowed us to 64 00:03:36,470 --> 00:03:40,059 convert that archaeological information into a modern day 65 00:03:40,070 --> 00:03:40,500 plan. 66 00:03:41,220 --> 00:03:43,399 JAMES GRASBY: Because there was something particular about the 67 00:03:43,410 --> 00:03:47,369 geology of the site that caused the wood to decay and disappear, 68 00:03:47,380 --> 00:03:49,190 but the metal to remain? 69 00:03:49,190 --> 00:03:49,820 JACQ BARNARD: That's spot on. 70 00:03:49,830 --> 00:03:51,710 JAMES GRASBY: I mean, there are hundreds and hundreds of these 71 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:52,309 metal rivets. 72 00:03:52,309 --> 00:03:55,779 JACQ BARNARD: I can tell you there are 3598 of those in 73 00:03:55,789 --> 00:03:56,110 there. 74 00:03:56,809 --> 00:03:56,919 JAMES GRASBY: Wow 75 00:03:56,919 --> 00:03:59,199 JACQ BARNARD: That's an awful lot of hammering required. 76 00:03:59,369 --> 00:04:02,759 JAMES GRASBY: The enthusiasm and vigor is to be seen everywhere. 77 00:04:02,850 --> 00:04:05,276 You've got a few more years of work to do, and then what 78 00:04:05,285 --> 00:04:05,705 happens? 79 00:04:05,716 --> 00:04:08,386 JACQ BARNARD: Spring 2025 is when we hope to get it on the 80 00:04:08,395 --> 00:04:12,065 water and then we're going to incrementally trial it. But one 81 00:04:12,076 --> 00:04:15,285 of the reasons we're building this is to find out what it was 82 00:04:15,296 --> 00:04:18,656 capable of and what it may have been used for and why it might 83 00:04:18,665 --> 00:04:21,096 have been used as a burial ship. Why was it held in such high 84 00:04:21,105 --> 00:04:24,006 esteem? Because to this day, we don't know whether it was a 85 00:04:24,015 --> 00:04:28,752 cargo ship, a cruising ship or a warship, you know, but we can 86 00:04:28,761 --> 00:04:31,712 hopefully at least rule some of those things out because if it 87 00:04:31,721 --> 00:04:35,212 doesn't perform like a warship, then it wasn't used as a 88 00:04:35,221 --> 00:04:37,971 warship. So they're the kind of things that we're going to be 89 00:04:37,981 --> 00:04:41,832 looking at to try and help the historians answer some of those 90 00:04:41,842 --> 00:04:44,231 age old questions that they've always been around. 91 00:04:44,342 --> 00:04:46,372 JAMES GRASBY: This is an enormous enterprise. 92 00:04:46,402 --> 00:04:48,712 JACQ BARNARD: The ship really is just the beginning, isn't it? So 93 00:04:49,010 --> 00:04:52,070 what we've got out there is the beautiful river Deben which must 94 00:04:52,079 --> 00:04:56,130 have been the playground of this original ship. So don't you 95 00:04:56,140 --> 00:04:58,059 think it would be a good idea if we went out onto the river 96 00:04:58,070 --> 00:05:02,339 ourselves and, and had a bit of a look and see what journey may 97 00:05:02,350 --> 00:05:02,910 have happened? 98 00:05:02,910 --> 00:05:03,559 JAMES GRASBY: I think that would be absolutely stunning 99 00:05:03,559 --> 00:05:07,674 JACQ BARNARD: Ok, let's go. 100 00:05:07,674 --> 00:05:12,980 James, this is Brian, who's our skipper for the day. 101 00:05:13,170 --> 00:05:14,480 JAMES GRASBY: How do you do, Brian? 102 00:05:14,489 --> 00:05:16,760 BRIAN: Hello, James, pleased to meet you. Sorry about the 103 00:05:16,769 --> 00:05:19,269 weather today! I hope you don't mind, I've brought somebody else 104 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:23,220 along who I think will be able to help you reimagine the 105 00:05:23,230 --> 00:05:23,809 journey. 106 00:05:23,820 --> 00:05:24,790 MATT: Hello, I'm Matt. 107 00:05:25,010 --> 00:05:27,799 JAMES GRASBY: I have to say you are a formidable looking figure. 108 00:05:27,809 --> 00:05:33,635 You're wearing a warm pinky red woollen cloak and a tunic and a 109 00:05:33,644 --> 00:05:34,755 fabulous hat. 110 00:05:34,765 --> 00:05:37,584 MATT: I'm wearing it because I'm a member of Wulfheodenas, which 111 00:05:37,595 --> 00:05:41,385 is a living history organisation that concentrates on recreating 112 00:05:41,394 --> 00:05:45,355 the material culture of the people of that time. This is the 113 00:05:45,364 --> 00:05:48,285 sort of thing that somebody of reasonably high status would be 114 00:05:48,295 --> 00:05:51,470 wearing in the early seventh century at the time of King 115 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:53,420 Redwald and the Sutton Hoo ship burial. 116 00:05:53,489 --> 00:05:55,140 JAMES GRASBY: It's very striking. I wonder if you've got 117 00:05:55,149 --> 00:05:56,290 any gear for me? 118 00:05:56,290 --> 00:05:59,660 MATT: Can't be going out onto the water just in 21st century 119 00:05:59,670 --> 00:06:01,850 clothes. So to start with, we're going to give you a woollen 120 00:06:01,859 --> 00:06:04,690 tunic and then we'll put one of these wrap around coats over the 121 00:06:04,700 --> 00:06:08,339 top of that and then a cloak over the top of that and we'll 122 00:06:08,350 --> 00:06:10,869 get you a hat as well and you will be ready for an adventure 123 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:11,670 on the Deben. 124 00:06:11,679 --> 00:06:12,549 JAMES GRASBY: You are kind 125 00:06:12,739 --> 00:06:16,940 MATT: I'm also carrying this rather large horn that you can 126 00:06:16,950 --> 00:06:21,070 see. The end is sawn off because it's a sounding horn rather than 127 00:06:21,079 --> 00:06:21,980 a drinking horn. 128 00:06:21,989 --> 00:06:24,170 JAMES GRASBY: Matt I think we should sound that now to start 129 00:06:24,179 --> 00:06:24,730 our journey. 130 00:06:29,250 --> 00:06:43,570 I think they heard that. 131 00:06:43,579 --> 00:06:47,583 Matt we've left Bawsdey Quay behind in a very small, 132 00:06:47,583 --> 00:06:50,489 clinker-built, wooden boat, in the water that is timeless, the 133 00:06:50,500 --> 00:06:53,769 way the waves are breaking over the bow of this wooden vessel. 134 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,179 MATT: The landscape that we see, the hills that we see in the 135 00:06:56,190 --> 00:06:59,190 distance as we move further up the river, is exactly the same 136 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:01,359 landscape as we would have seen in the sixth and the seventh 137 00:07:01,369 --> 00:07:01,989 century. 138 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,399 JAMES GRASBY: These are the sensations and the sights that 139 00:07:04,869 --> 00:07:09,850 somebody entering this river at that period would have felt. 140 00:07:09,850 --> 00:07:13,839 Actually as I understand it, we're closer here to mainland 141 00:07:13,850 --> 00:07:16,850 Europe than I am to my home in Worcestershire. This must have 142 00:07:16,859 --> 00:07:20,679 been a meeting place of seafarers. 143 00:07:20,690 --> 00:07:23,070 MATT: Definitely, I think particularly once we start to 144 00:07:23,079 --> 00:07:26,390 see the development of Kingdoms, of power centres, and that's 145 00:07:26,399 --> 00:07:29,809 something that the Deben is particularly important for. It's 146 00:07:29,820 --> 00:07:33,359 a highway for, for European trade, for cross channel trade, 147 00:07:33,359 --> 00:07:36,440 and trade from much further away as well, even as far as like the 148 00:07:36,450 --> 00:07:39,940 Byzantine Empire and then beyond into China. And it's also kind 149 00:07:39,950 --> 00:07:42,589 of a highway for people migrating into the country. 150 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:45,470 JAMES GRASBY: Now, Matt, tell me who was King Redwald. 151 00:07:46,260 --> 00:07:50,570 MATT: Redwald, he ruled East Anglia but he held power over 152 00:07:50,579 --> 00:07:54,429 kings of other Southern Kingdoms as well, so kings of Essex and 153 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:57,790 possibly Kent, Sussex and possibly even Wessex as well. So 154 00:07:57,799 --> 00:07:59,910 he was very important, King. 155 00:08:03,549 --> 00:08:07,510 JAMES GRASBY: Brian, our captain has turned the engine off and we 156 00:08:07,519 --> 00:08:12,690 are mid-channel, silence in this timeless wooden boat. What I'm 157 00:08:12,700 --> 00:08:18,420 fascinated about Matt, is why will you choose to bury your 158 00:08:18,429 --> 00:08:20,209 King in a boat? 159 00:08:22,459 --> 00:08:25,140 MATT: It's making that really important statement saying here 160 00:08:25,149 --> 00:08:30,119 is a powerful man. Here is a true King amongst kings and it's 161 00:08:30,130 --> 00:08:34,049 his family stamping their authorities - this is how 162 00:08:34,059 --> 00:08:38,200 important we are. Not only was Redwald so rich and powerful and 163 00:08:38,210 --> 00:08:41,119 he deserves to have all of these things buried with him, but we 164 00:08:41,130 --> 00:08:44,640 as his descendants are so rich and powerful that we can give 165 00:08:44,650 --> 00:08:48,659 them up to the ground to go with Redwald into whatever lies 166 00:08:48,669 --> 00:08:49,270 beyond. 167 00:08:50,630 --> 00:08:52,609 JAMES GRASBY: But it's a formidable prospect. Jacq, 168 00:08:52,619 --> 00:08:55,190 you're also a very experienced rower in your own. right - We're 169 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:58,130 sitting on a thwart broadly speaking, which is a transverse 170 00:08:58,140 --> 00:09:02,210 bench on which a rower would sit and then there would be two oars 171 00:09:02,219 --> 00:09:04,630 people would there on either side on the same bench? 172 00:09:05,099 --> 00:09:07,320 JACQ BARNARD: But remember that the ship is very wide in the 173 00:09:07,330 --> 00:09:10,820 centre, it's 4.8 m across - we would be a long way from one 174 00:09:10,830 --> 00:09:14,059 another. But we would also be expected to row in unison 175 00:09:14,070 --> 00:09:19,359 because in order for 20 rows on each side to move at the same 176 00:09:19,369 --> 00:09:22,049 time, they have all got to go in the water and come out of the 177 00:09:22,059 --> 00:09:25,260 water at the same point. If not, they'll start to clash with one 178 00:09:25,270 --> 00:09:25,719 another. 179 00:09:26,599 --> 00:09:28,929 JAMES GRASBY: And tell me, Matt, who were these Anglo Saxon 180 00:09:28,940 --> 00:09:29,640 rowers? 181 00:09:31,010 --> 00:09:34,219 MATT: You can't just put anybody into any boat and expect them to 182 00:09:34,229 --> 00:09:36,489 be able to row efficiently. And even more so when it's like a 183 00:09:36,500 --> 00:09:39,440 royal vessel of the size that we're talking about. So the 184 00:09:39,450 --> 00:09:43,849 assumption has to be that these are men who are trained for 185 00:09:43,859 --> 00:09:47,309 rowing, retained as rowers. They probably had other duties as 186 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:49,750 well, they may have been what we call a'gesith'- They would be 187 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:53,150 people who would own lands that were given to them by the King, 188 00:09:53,150 --> 00:09:55,729 and they would perform military service for the King. 189 00:09:55,739 --> 00:10:00,010 JAMES GRASBY: Fascinating. We're drifting, fire up the motor! 190 00:10:00,010 --> 00:10:07,369 we're off. 191 00:10:07,369 --> 00:10:10,690 And the waves are breaking over the bow. We're going into the 192 00:10:10,700 --> 00:10:12,700 wind and I guess there's a little bit of tide that is 193 00:10:12,700 --> 00:10:16,159 wanting to push us out to sea too. But picturing taking that 194 00:10:16,169 --> 00:10:31,489 vessel, rowing would be very hard work... 195 00:10:31,489 --> 00:10:34,549 The estuary was really quite broad when we started, and it's 196 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:38,669 narrowing down and there is Woodbridge with a modern marina 197 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:41,460 and some clearly more industrial buildings. 198 00:10:41,469 --> 00:10:44,340 MATT: And the land rises around us as well as we move up. It's 199 00:10:44,349 --> 00:10:47,460 been very sort of flat and level and the bit that we're coming up 200 00:10:47,469 --> 00:10:51,190 to now is where we assume that the ship itself would have been 201 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,690 moored before it was then dragged out of the water and 202 00:10:54,700 --> 00:10:59,729 hauled the half mile up to the burial mounds of Sutton Hoo. 203 00:10:59,729 --> 00:11:01,479 JAMES GRASBY: It's been an encounter with history. 204 00:11:02,859 --> 00:11:06,320 We're slowing down now so we must be getting pretty near our 205 00:11:06,330 --> 00:11:08,609 destination - Sutton Hoo. 206 00:11:15,260 --> 00:11:19,390 I've left Jacq and Matt and have come to the bank beneath Sutton 207 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:19,640 Hoo. 208 00:11:20,239 --> 00:11:24,080 There is a public footpath here along the bank and I can just 209 00:11:24,090 --> 00:11:28,619 see a very steep hill and some woodland to one side. I'm here 210 00:11:28,890 --> 00:11:32,500 to meet Laura, who's going to help me understand what happened 211 00:11:32,690 --> 00:11:36,599 once the ship got to this very point. I can see her. Laura. 212 00:11:36,609 --> 00:11:37,979 LAURA HOWARTH: Hello. Nice to meet you. 213 00:11:37,979 --> 00:11:39,229 JAMES GRASBY: I'm very pleased to meet you. 214 00:11:39,580 --> 00:11:42,320 LAURA HOWARTH: I'm Laura and I'm the archaeology and engagement 215 00:11:42,330 --> 00:11:44,469 manager here at National Trust Sutton Hoo. 216 00:11:44,469 --> 00:11:46,179 JAMES GRASBY: Couldn't be more thrilled to be here. The rain 217 00:11:46,190 --> 00:11:47,150 has stopped. 218 00:11:47,239 --> 00:11:48,429 LAURA HOWARTH: Yes! Welcome to Sutton Hoo. 219 00:11:48,739 --> 00:11:50,789 JAMES GRASBY: Now look, I'm feeling a bit daunted. We've 220 00:11:50,799 --> 00:11:53,650 recreated this journey from the mouth of the river Deben to 221 00:11:53,659 --> 00:11:56,940 here. This was the beginning of the great haul of that ship - 222 00:11:56,940 --> 00:11:57,710 from here? 223 00:11:58,030 --> 00:12:01,349 LAURA HOWARTH: Yes. Sutton Hoo is a place name in Old English, 224 00:12:01,359 --> 00:12:04,890 which is the language of the Anglo Saxons. The Sutton bit 225 00:12:04,900 --> 00:12:08,460 means southern and Ton means place or settlements. And then a 226 00:12:08,469 --> 00:12:12,730 Hoo is a raised area of land often overlooking water and that 227 00:12:12,780 --> 00:12:16,090 exactly describes where we are and we're going to be heading up 228 00:12:16,099 --> 00:12:19,440 one of the Hoos to where the Royal Burial Ground is situated. 229 00:12:19,799 --> 00:12:21,909 JAMES GRASBY: And in terms of this moment, the ship has been 230 00:12:22,353 --> 00:12:25,558 beached, I suppose, in this squashy mud? 231 00:12:25,558 --> 00:12:26,023 LAURA HOWARTH: Yes 232 00:12:26,023 --> 00:12:28,172 JAMES GRASBY: So conceivably, there would have been spectators 233 00:12:28,182 --> 00:12:30,043 on both sides of the river? There would have been other 234 00:12:30,052 --> 00:12:31,143 vessels, perhaps? 235 00:12:31,153 --> 00:12:33,822 LAURA HOWARTH: Possibly Yes. Yes. And it would have been, we 236 00:12:33,833 --> 00:12:37,343 think over a course of several days. Possible funeral feasts as 237 00:12:37,353 --> 00:12:40,002 well - the kind of the ceremony. This is, wasn't the kind of 238 00:12:40,033 --> 00:12:42,752 funerary practice that would have been afforded to everyone. 239 00:12:42,763 --> 00:12:45,992 There are only three Anglo Saxon ship burials that we know of in 240 00:12:46,002 --> 00:12:49,585 the whole of England and there are two here at Sutton Hoo and 241 00:12:49,596 --> 00:12:50,856 one nearby at Snape. 242 00:12:50,976 --> 00:12:53,306 JAMES GRASBY: You've then got an enormous problem. I mean, it's 243 00:12:53,315 --> 00:12:56,026 hard enough to launch a ship going with gravity but to pull 244 00:12:56,036 --> 00:12:58,736 it out of the water across these sort of muddy surfaces of this 245 00:12:58,745 --> 00:13:00,616 bank, across this berm up here. 246 00:13:00,625 --> 00:13:02,616 LAURA HOWARTH: It's something quite alien to us today, I guess 247 00:13:02,625 --> 00:13:07,096 dragging a huge ship just by the means that they had. But various 248 00:13:07,106 --> 00:13:11,479 theories include a lot of manpower first and foremost, and 249 00:13:11,489 --> 00:13:14,760 ropes, potentially these trees being used as rollers to get us 250 00:13:14,770 --> 00:13:18,130 up there and potentially even livestock as well being used. 251 00:13:18,140 --> 00:13:20,559 But it would have been a phenomenal feat. 252 00:13:23,500 --> 00:13:25,940 JAMES GRASBY: So Laura, we're out of the mud, we've got a bit 253 00:13:25,950 --> 00:13:27,280 of a journey to go now, haven't we? 254 00:13:27,289 --> 00:13:30,369 LAURA HOWARTH: We do. So we don't know exactly the route 255 00:13:30,380 --> 00:13:33,940 that the ship would have taken, but we're going to do is close 256 00:13:33,950 --> 00:13:36,359 to what we think is kind of possible today. 257 00:13:36,369 --> 00:13:40,080 JAMES GRASBY: Underneath this grass is a very dry sandy soil. 258 00:13:40,090 --> 00:13:42,780 I can imagine that being quite a sort of slick surface over to 259 00:13:42,789 --> 00:13:45,039 which you could drag it quite readily. 260 00:13:45,780 --> 00:13:48,630 LAURA HOWARTH: Yes, we have quite acidic soil here in 261 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:48,859 Suffolk. 262 00:13:49,619 --> 00:13:52,810 The soil type means that there isn't a ship to see at Sutton 263 00:13:52,810 --> 00:13:57,719 Hoo today because over time water seeping in, created an 264 00:13:57,729 --> 00:14:01,669 acid bath which then dissolved kind of all the organic 265 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,960 materials such as the timber of the ship, the body that was 266 00:14:04,969 --> 00:14:08,690 placed in it. And what was uncovered in 1939 by 267 00:14:08,700 --> 00:14:12,210 archaeologists such as Basil Brown and Charles Phillips was 268 00:14:12,219 --> 00:14:14,039 actually a fossil of a ship. 269 00:14:18,570 --> 00:14:20,729 JAMES GRASBY: Laura we've emerged with some lovely 270 00:14:20,739 --> 00:14:24,809 woodland into a much more open landscape, but nevertheless, the 271 00:14:24,820 --> 00:14:28,710 ground is rising. I guess we've got 30 or 40 m? 272 00:14:28,750 --> 00:14:30,929 LAURA HOWARTH: We're nearly there, but we are on the 273 00:14:30,940 --> 00:14:34,669 steepest kind of part of the incline now, just imagining the 274 00:14:34,679 --> 00:14:38,190 people hauling the effort to get this ship up there. And 275 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:42,349 meanwhile, people are preparing the actual kind of burial 276 00:14:42,359 --> 00:14:43,270 itself. 277 00:14:43,289 --> 00:14:45,419 JAMES GRASBY: Were slaves part of the picture? 278 00:14:45,419 --> 00:14:48,849 LAURA HOWARTH: Quite possibly. Yeah. The Anglo Saxons did have 279 00:14:48,859 --> 00:14:52,969 slaves. We know slaves were part of their culture and also were 280 00:14:52,979 --> 00:14:54,479 slaves themselves as well. 281 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,679 JAMES GRASBY: I tell you what, I was rather sorry when I had to 282 00:14:57,690 --> 00:15:01,570 take off my Anglo Saxon clothes, they protected me very well in 283 00:15:01,580 --> 00:15:04,590 the boat. But I was very struck by the colour, the vivid, 284 00:15:04,599 --> 00:15:08,729 vibrant colours, I mean, almost sort of 1970s, retro and groovy. 285 00:15:08,739 --> 00:15:12,344 LAURA HOWARTH: Yes, a lot of the time people refer to this period 286 00:15:12,354 --> 00:15:16,375 as the dark ages, but it couldn't be further from the 287 00:15:16,385 --> 00:15:19,385 truth. It was a very vibrant time and we know that they used 288 00:15:19,395 --> 00:15:22,434 natural dyes to create a rich rainbow of colour. 289 00:15:23,114 --> 00:15:25,755 And that is one of the things that's worth thinking about, you 290 00:15:25,765 --> 00:15:28,705 know, in terms of the ship, the level of Sutton Hoo 291 00:15:28,715 --> 00:15:32,784 craftsmanship, and thinking about other Anglo Saxon stone 292 00:15:32,794 --> 00:15:36,794 sculptures that were painted, it could have been carved, it could 293 00:15:36,804 --> 00:15:38,304 have had decorative panels. 294 00:15:41,460 --> 00:15:45,489 JAMES GRASBY: The trees are thinning and this path winding 295 00:15:46,250 --> 00:15:48,919 its way through them. And we're beginning to get a glimpse of 296 00:15:48,929 --> 00:15:52,150 that soft pillow shape on the horizon. 297 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:55,219 LAURA HOWARTH: This is where we're gonna put the ship that 298 00:15:55,229 --> 00:16:00,020 we've been dragging up the hill. This is mound one and then we'll 299 00:16:00,030 --> 00:16:04,219 set about furnishing the ship and the burial chamber ready to 300 00:16:04,229 --> 00:16:07,130 heap over the soil to create this beautiful mound. 301 00:16:10,969 --> 00:16:13,030 JAMES GRASBY: Now, Laura, which way was the ship facing? 302 00:16:13,039 --> 00:16:16,309 LAURA HOWARTH: So it's this East to West orientation, facing out 303 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:20,469 to the river and that connection to the North Sea, we think is 304 00:16:20,479 --> 00:16:23,429 just such an important part of the kind of burial layout. 305 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:27,840 JAMES GRASBY: Take me through the process of burying a boat. 306 00:16:31,159 --> 00:16:33,469 LAURA HOWARTH: What we're doing is kind of furnishing a burial 307 00:16:33,479 --> 00:16:37,270 chamber in the middle. The King would have been laid out in 308 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,309 there. Some people think that he was buried in a tree trunk 309 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:44,210 coffin. Other theories suggest that he was lying kind of supine 310 00:16:44,219 --> 00:16:48,119 on the base of the ship. And then it's a process of adding in 311 00:16:48,130 --> 00:16:51,900 the objects that not only represent him in life but also 312 00:16:51,909 --> 00:16:54,849 would have had a purpose, a statement for him in death as 313 00:16:54,859 --> 00:16:55,309 well. 314 00:16:56,169 --> 00:17:00,210 263 objects that were going to be used into the next life. So 315 00:17:00,219 --> 00:17:03,869 we've got a weaponry, the iconic Sutton Hoo Helmet, a wonderful 316 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,199 master crafted pattern welded sword. So that kind of regalia, 317 00:17:07,339 --> 00:17:10,400 that ceremonial aspect. We've got feasting equipment, 318 00:17:10,410 --> 00:17:13,650 entertainment in the form of a lyre and gaming pieces. 319 00:17:13,660 --> 00:17:16,150 JAMES GRASBY: So not simply a basic tool kit for the 320 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:16,930 afterlife. 321 00:17:16,939 --> 00:17:19,270 LAURA HOWARTH: Yes, many of these things might have been 322 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,869 specifically made for burial. There were some things included 323 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,719 for a practical purpose, but some things were very much for 324 00:17:25,729 --> 00:17:27,000 the statement of power. 325 00:17:29,910 --> 00:17:33,530 The Anglo Saxons at this time in East Anglia are predominantly 326 00:17:33,540 --> 00:17:37,439 pagan, but we are very much at that transition point. So we've 327 00:17:37,449 --> 00:17:40,959 got influences coming in from the East, Christianity coming 328 00:17:40,969 --> 00:17:44,060 through, through Kent and spreading. And we also have 329 00:17:44,069 --> 00:17:46,959 Christianity to the West thinking about Ireland and 330 00:17:46,969 --> 00:17:48,119 Scotland as well. 331 00:17:48,250 --> 00:17:50,170 JAMES GRASBY: So what a remarkable discovery for the 332 00:17:50,180 --> 00:17:53,119 archaeologist Basil Brown in 1939. Staggering. 333 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:55,380 LAURA HOWARTH: We say that this is a discovery that changed 334 00:17:55,390 --> 00:17:58,439 history. That it truly revolutionised our understanding 335 00:17:58,449 --> 00:18:01,900 of who these people were, what they were capable of - the 336 00:18:01,910 --> 00:18:05,760 amazing craftsmanship. Everything found here at here is 337 00:18:05,770 --> 00:18:09,540 an expression of what it was to be an Anglo Saxon and what they 338 00:18:09,550 --> 00:18:10,510 were capable of. 339 00:18:11,050 --> 00:18:13,790 JAMES GRASBY: Laura, what is intoxicatingly striking is the 340 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:18,979 geometry of it, that we've got this dark foreground and this 341 00:18:18,989 --> 00:18:23,079 hemisphere like a rising planet of this, of this mound on the 342 00:18:23,089 --> 00:18:26,369 horizon set against this wonderful sky that you only get 343 00:18:26,380 --> 00:18:29,069 in this part of the world, I think. But why here at Sutton 344 00:18:29,180 --> 00:18:29,209 Hoo? 345 00:18:29,790 --> 00:18:33,300 LAURA HOWARTH: Archaeology is a bit like having a jigsaw puzzle 346 00:18:33,310 --> 00:18:36,660 box. We've got some of the pieces, but we haven't got the 347 00:18:36,670 --> 00:18:39,670 picture on the back. So a lot of the time, what we're doing is 348 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,114 looking at the evidence that we have, seeing how it fits 349 00:18:42,125 --> 00:18:44,104 together and coming up with theories. 350 00:18:44,375 --> 00:18:46,964 There's still so much to learn about Sutton Hoo, so much 351 00:18:46,974 --> 00:18:50,074 research that we're still carrying out today to uncover 352 00:18:50,084 --> 00:18:54,494 other bits of the story. We think there are around 18 burial 353 00:18:54,505 --> 00:18:55,295 mounds here. 354 00:18:55,295 --> 00:18:56,084 JAMES GRASBY: 18? 355 00:18:56,084 --> 00:18:59,395 LAURA HOWARTH: Yes. Some of them have been plowed down to almost 356 00:18:59,405 --> 00:19:02,594 on the flat. So, shall we go and explore some of the other people 357 00:19:02,604 --> 00:19:03,470 buried here? 358 00:19:03,470 --> 00:19:12,949 JAMES GRASBY: Yes please. Laura, this feels like a great 359 00:19:12,959 --> 00:19:15,829 privilege to be going over the barrier. It's got a little rope 360 00:19:15,849 --> 00:19:15,969 here. 361 00:19:16,270 --> 00:19:18,699 LAURA HOWARTH: So I'll just unhook the rope and let you in. 362 00:19:18,709 --> 00:19:23,260 So this is for our guided tours. So just kind of minimizing 363 00:19:23,270 --> 00:19:26,020 footfall and the erosion on the burial grounds. 364 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,000 JAMES GRASBY: So, Laura, that's one of the groups to our left, a 365 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:29,657 guided tour. 366 00:19:29,657 --> 00:19:30,890 LAURA HOWARTH: It is, and actually, we're going to head 367 00:19:30,900 --> 00:19:32,900 over to Mound 17. 368 00:19:33,439 --> 00:19:36,280 JAMES GRASBY: And every step we take, a grasshopper leaps out in 369 00:19:36,290 --> 00:19:36,979 front of us. 370 00:19:37,010 --> 00:19:39,459 LAURA HOWARTH: A carpet that's alive with wildlife. 371 00:19:39,619 --> 00:19:44,709 JAMES GRASBY: Mound 17 looks in comparison to mound one, pretty 372 00:19:44,719 --> 00:19:46,630 modest. It's pretty flat. 373 00:19:46,770 --> 00:19:50,349 LAURA HOWARTH: It is. So this was one of the very last things 374 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:53,770 that was discovered during the 1980s campaign and it was 375 00:19:53,780 --> 00:19:57,020 actually found, purely by chance, by Professor Martin 376 00:19:57,030 --> 00:20:01,119 Carver at the end of his excavation season, believe it or 377 00:20:01,130 --> 00:20:02,670 not, whilst he was playing golf. 378 00:20:03,829 --> 00:20:07,689 MARTIN CARVER: When we took over the site, we were conscious that 379 00:20:07,699 --> 00:20:11,500 the site had been raided on a previous occasion. So we put the 380 00:20:11,510 --> 00:20:13,290 site under 24 hour guard. 381 00:20:15,030 --> 00:20:19,680 I did my stint, I was a lone guard surrounded by a lot of 382 00:20:19,689 --> 00:20:26,479 mounds and being a golfer, not a very good one but a keen golfer 383 00:20:26,619 --> 00:20:30,849 it's safe to say, I invented a game where you chip from Mound 384 00:20:30,969 --> 00:20:35,709 One to Mound Two, from Mound Two to Mound 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and so 385 00:20:35,719 --> 00:20:40,380 on. Thus, helping me learn the geography of the site, and also 386 00:20:40,390 --> 00:20:43,290 try and improve my chipping skills. 387 00:20:43,839 --> 00:20:48,219 There was a Mound 12 which was just under a tree and I always 388 00:20:48,229 --> 00:20:53,300 fell short. But interestingly enough, the ball always rolled 389 00:20:53,310 --> 00:20:57,739 off what it landed in and eventually I twigged that there 390 00:20:57,750 --> 00:21:00,020 must have been another mound there. That's the only reason 391 00:21:00,030 --> 00:21:02,300 why the ball would have rolled off where there wasn't 392 00:21:02,310 --> 00:21:03,800 apparently a mound to roll off. 393 00:21:03,810 --> 00:21:07,310 And that turned out to be Mound 17. You know, I wouldn't 394 00:21:07,319 --> 00:21:11,780 recommend it in general, but it is amazing how you, you know, if 395 00:21:11,790 --> 00:21:15,949 you spend long enough peering at the ground, how you can start to 396 00:21:15,959 --> 00:21:20,140 feel the micro-geography which is hiding what you're looking 397 00:21:20,150 --> 00:21:20,469 for. 398 00:21:24,209 --> 00:21:25,510 JAMES GRASBY: What was actually found here? 399 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,630 LAURA HOWARTH: So we've got two graves in front of us and one 400 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:33,380 possible theory is this is Redwald's son and he was buried 401 00:21:33,390 --> 00:21:38,140 with everything that you would think of for a warrior. Moving 402 00:21:38,150 --> 00:21:40,550 over to the next grave, it's a horse. 403 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:44,505 So his horse, we believe, to accompany him on to the next 404 00:21:44,515 --> 00:21:48,655 life and over there, which is again, no longer really visible 405 00:21:48,665 --> 00:21:52,984 as a mound, Mound 14, is the only high status female burial 406 00:21:52,994 --> 00:21:56,165 that we found here. That could have been Redwald's Queen. 407 00:21:56,175 --> 00:21:58,064 Unfortunately, we'll never know for certain. 408 00:21:58,505 --> 00:22:00,314 JAMES GRASBY: So what you're saying was this was exclusively 409 00:22:00,324 --> 00:22:01,435 a family burial site? 410 00:22:01,444 --> 00:22:03,864 LAURA HOWARTH: The Royal Burial Ground is a really important 411 00:22:03,875 --> 00:22:06,505 part of our Sutton Hoo stories, but there are other chapters 412 00:22:06,515 --> 00:22:09,114 that are equally as interesting and fascinating. 413 00:22:11,750 --> 00:22:15,099 So during Professor Martin Carver's excavation, they also 414 00:22:15,109 --> 00:22:19,709 found 39 sand bodies. Again, the acidity of the soil means they 415 00:22:19,719 --> 00:22:24,369 were shadowed kind of stains in the soil and quite an 416 00:22:24,380 --> 00:22:28,199 interesting juxtaposition to the seventh century burials that had 417 00:22:28,209 --> 00:22:32,969 so much care and reverence afforded to them, these people 418 00:22:32,979 --> 00:22:37,099 were deviant burials we think with kind of wrists and ankles 419 00:22:37,109 --> 00:22:41,400 being bound, heads cut off, shallow graves, very gruesome. 420 00:22:41,619 --> 00:22:44,609 And I think it just shows there's so much that we still 421 00:22:44,619 --> 00:22:48,390 don't know about Sutton Hoo, and ongoing research. So today, 422 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,359 we're using a lot of non invasive techniques and 423 00:22:51,369 --> 00:22:55,050 technology to see what that can tell us and add further chapters 424 00:22:55,060 --> 00:23:00,069 to our Sutton Hoo story. 425 00:23:00,069 --> 00:23:02,829 JAMES GRASBY: The story is not over. It's been fascinating, 426 00:23:02,839 --> 00:23:04,709 Laura, thank you very much indeed. 427 00:23:10,959 --> 00:23:14,209 Standing here in the courtyard looking at the full size 428 00:23:14,219 --> 00:23:17,660 sculpture of the great ship they have here. It's inspiring to 429 00:23:17,670 --> 00:23:21,119 think of what the Anglo Saxons achieved at Sutton Hoo. It 430 00:23:21,130 --> 00:23:26,119 really shows the commitment and the ceremony and the importance, 431 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,459 in preparing their dead for the afterlife. And the sheer feat of 432 00:23:29,469 --> 00:23:31,979 strength and engineering to enable that to happen is 433 00:23:31,989 --> 00:23:33,170 incredibly impressive. 434 00:23:38,569 --> 00:23:42,000 And once the full size replica ship is built and river worthy, 435 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,089 we'll gain even more insight into this magnificent vessel and 436 00:23:45,099 --> 00:23:48,369 those she carried. And that's what I love about it - It's a 437 00:23:48,380 --> 00:23:51,160 story that is still being written, a story still being 438 00:23:51,170 --> 00:23:51,640 spun. 439 00:24:03,339 --> 00:24:06,119 Thanks for listening to this episode of the National Trust 440 00:24:06,130 --> 00:24:09,280 podcast. If you'd like to learn more about Sutton who or the 441 00:24:09,290 --> 00:24:11,729 building of the Great ship replica, we've included 442 00:24:11,739 --> 00:24:15,489 information and links in this episode's show net to make sure 443 00:24:15,500 --> 00:24:18,609 you get to new episodes of this podcast follow or subscribe on 444 00:24:18,619 --> 00:24:22,760 Spotify, Google podcasts or Apple podcast. We'll be back 445 00:24:22,770 --> 00:24:25,800 soon. But for now from me, James Graspy, goodbye.