INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where we

INTRO: share learning and expertise in child protection from

INTRO: inside and outside of the organisation.

INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and

INTRO: share good practice on how we can all work together

INTRO: to keep babies, children and young people safe.

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Welcome to the NSPCC Learning

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Podcast. This is the second half

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): of a two part podcast series,

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): recorded in July 2023, looking

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): at the UK government's strategy

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): to reform children's social care

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): in England, 'Stable Homes, Built

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): on Love'.

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): In the previous episode, we

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): interviewed Josh MacAlister, who

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): chaired the Independent Review

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): of Children's Social Care in England.

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): In his foreword to the review's

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): final report, Josh described the

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): need for a care system that will

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): get alongside and strengthen the

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): families and communities that

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): children grow up in.

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): In this episode, a panel of

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): experts from within the NSPCC

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): are going to discuss how the proposals

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): laid out in 'Stable Homes, Built

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): on Love' can achieve this goal.

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): The discussion will focus on the

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): proposed reforms to family

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): support and early help services,

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): what these might look like in practice,

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): and how they might meet the needs

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): of children and families.

EAVAN MCKAY: Hi, I'm Eavan Mckay.

EAVAN MCKAY: I'm Senior Policy and Public Affairs Officer

EAVAN MCKAY: here at the NSPCC and my brief focuses on

EAVAN MCKAY: children's social care and child protection.

MATT FORDE: Hi, I'm Matt Forde, I'm a Partnerships and

MATT FORDE: Development Director here at the NSPCC,

MATT FORDE: and I'm responsible for the services that we run

MATT FORDE: in partnership with others, with a big focus on

MATT FORDE: the early years and on the prevention of child

MATT FORDE: sexual abuse.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: Hi, my name's Rachel Holdcroft, I'm the

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: Strategic Service Manager at Together for

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: Childhood in Stoke on Trent.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So I oversee the direct casework and

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: the development work here in Stoke, all

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: of which focuses on prevention of child

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: sexual abuse.

EAVAN MCKAY: 'Stable Homes, Built on Love' talks about

EAVAN MCKAY: providing families with the right support at

EAVAN MCKAY: the right time and proposes the rollout of

EAVAN MCKAY: new, multi-disciplinary family help teams to

EAVAN MCKAY: provide earlier support to families so they

EAVAN MCKAY: don't reach crisis point.

EAVAN MCKAY: This will involve bringing together targeted

EAVAN MCKAY: early help and child in need into a single

EAVAN MCKAY: family help service.

EAVAN MCKAY: So my question for you both to start is

EAVAN MCKAY: what are your thoughts on these proposals in

EAVAN MCKAY: principle and what do you think is needed to

EAVAN MCKAY: help them work in practice?

MATT FORDE: The principle that what we want to do

MATT FORDE: is get alongside families at a time that

MATT FORDE: helps them is a good one.

MATT FORDE: I think there are some missing parts of the

MATT FORDE: story.

MATT FORDE: The care review, right from the start, the case

MATT FORDE: for change for the care review, said we need to

MATT FORDE: do more to help families and

MATT FORDE: identify the context of poverty and inequality.

MATT FORDE: The review report itself said

MATT FORDE: that we have to address that wider

MATT FORDE: context that drives the demand for children's

MATT FORDE: social care and the stress on families

MATT FORDE: and the impact that has on outcomes for

MATT FORDE: children. And I think the other dimension

MATT FORDE: that isn't present there or isn't visible, is

MATT FORDE: an understanding of the particular importance of

MATT FORDE: early childhood and of getting it

MATT FORDE: so that families with very young children, from

MATT FORDE: pregnancy onwards, get the support that they

MATT FORDE: need to be able to give the children a start in

MATT FORDE: life that makes all the difference.

MATT FORDE: And when you think about children's social care,

MATT FORDE: what heaves into view in your mind is a teenager

MATT FORDE: in a children's home or maybe in a foster care

MATT FORDE: placement. But actually the

MATT FORDE: majority of children in the children's social

MATT FORDE: care system had their first encounters with

MATT FORDE: children's social care before they were five,

MATT FORDE: and a very sizeable chunk of the children

MATT FORDE: actually, in our social care system are under

MATT FORDE: five.

MATT FORDE: And it's a testament to the failure to support

MATT FORDE: those children that we have children spending a

MATT FORDE: whole childhood in a care system rather than in

MATT FORDE: families.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: I agree with and echo, really, what Matt

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: has just said there, I think the other

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: thing for me just to add is

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that as a sentence or a principle or as a

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: declaration, I think most people in this

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: profession would support the idea that we

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: bring together early help services for

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: families and offer that support to create

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: stable homes at the earliest point

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: possible.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: One of the concerns that I would have

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: is that in practice we would need

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: skilled, well-resourced practitioners

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: who are able to deliver that type of

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: service. And the other concern is around

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: what early health actually is.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So across the nation there's different

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: thresholds that are applied when

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: determining whether or not a family would

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: qualify for an early help service.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: And, I kind of say that in inverted

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: commas. That differentiation and

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: thresholds can create national

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: inequality.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: And I think what we need to- what needs

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: to underpin this principle is universal,

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: positive protective messaging.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So tackling a problem before it's

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: happened, so that we're not waiting until

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: families are in crisis or in need of

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: help. We're already giving those positive

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: messages, and that's exactly what Matt's

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: just said. So from pregnancy, right

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: through the early years; informative,

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: practical, accessible, positive messaging

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: and help to be shared, you know, is

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: shared with families at that point.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: That way, there's trust in services

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that's built so that if they need

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: additional targeted services, that trust,

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that relationship and that mutual respect

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: is already embedded in practice.

EAVAN MCKAY: Yeah, I completely agree.

EAVAN MCKAY: And I think that point about what do we mean by

EAVAN MCKAY: early help as well is a really important one.

EAVAN MCKAY: So Matt, you've already talked about babies,

EAVAN MCKAY: infants and the needs of babies and infants,

EAVAN MCKAY: and that was definitely a question I wanted to

EAVAN MCKAY: pick up. The specific needs of babies and

EAVAN MCKAY: infants, as you say, is definitely not a strong

EAVAN MCKAY: focus in 'Stable Homes, Built on Love'.

EAVAN MCKAY: We know babies and infants are the group that

EAVAN MCKAY: are most at risk of abuse and neglect and

EAVAN MCKAY: potentially less child with a social worker.

EAVAN MCKAY: They're also the group who are least seen by

EAVAN MCKAY: agencies and services.

EAVAN MCKAY: What would a future children's social care

EAVAN MCKAY: system that truly meets the needs of babies and

EAVAN MCKAY: infants, what would it look like?

MATT FORDE: Other ways of describing what it what it would

MATT FORDE: look like would be about how it's experienced by

MATT FORDE: families. Hearing the voice of children who are

MATT FORDE: under five; it's also about understanding what

MATT FORDE: what their parents need to be the parents that

MATT FORDE: they want to be, and to understand their

MATT FORDE: experiences in the world and to understand how

MATT FORDE: they may well be experiencing incredible stress.

MATT FORDE: Locked in poverty, families involved in the

MATT FORDE: child protection system. They're in double

MATT FORDE: jeopardy because they have all of

MATT FORDE: the pressures and stresses that come from

MATT FORDE: inadequate income, insecure housing, living in

MATT FORDE: hard-pressed neighbourhoods, and

MATT FORDE: then family crisis that's led them into

MATT FORDE: interaction with children's social care and

MATT FORDE: that experience of working with children's

MATT FORDE: social care can often be further

MATT FORDE: stigmatising and stress-inducing for families.

MATT FORDE: And what the system would look like would be a

MATT FORDE: system that had services that got alongside

MATT FORDE: families, that stood with families, that said,

MATT FORDE: "how can we help?" That said, "where are your

MATT FORDE: strengths and how can we build on them?

MATT FORDE: How can we actually give you practical and

MATT FORDE: material help to alleviate some of this

MATT FORDE: pressure?" And at the same time, let's

MATT FORDE: try and understand where relationships need to

MATT FORDE: be helped and where things might have gone wrong

MATT FORDE: and we can get them back on track.

MATT FORDE: It's not an either or, it's both.

MATT FORDE: And the system would be something that

MATT FORDE: was experienced by families as something that

MATT FORDE: was genuinely there to help.

MATT FORDE: So you wouldn't have to navigate, you know,

MATT FORDE: hostile systems of appointments set in distant

MATT FORDE: places at times it's difficult to get to that

MATT FORDE: when you got there there would be food available

MATT FORDE: so that your child wouldn't be hungry during the

MATT FORDE: appointment and you wouldn't have to ask for it.

MATT FORDE: It would be an expectation that

MATT FORDE: your story wouldn't have to be told over and

MATT FORDE: over again, that you wouldn't have to go back to

MATT FORDE: the beginning ever, that you would...

MATT FORDE: That you would experience workers being alert

MATT FORDE: and oriented to try and understand what

MATT FORDE: your story is, and they would have time

MATT FORDE: to listen to you. So these are all

MATT FORDE: characteristics of a system that would be

MATT FORDE: getting alongside people.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: The question, Eavan, that you posed was

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: around what would a social care system

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: look like? And I think we need to really

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: consider what a social care system is

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: before we can purposefully or

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: meaningfully answer that question.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So a social care system is beyond a

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: social worker.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: The social care system for me needs to be

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: all of that child, baby, infant, parent

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: social network, including communities as

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: well as just professionals.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: And if we're really going to affect

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: change here, I think it's crucial to

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: bring everybody on that journey with us.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: In Stoke and Together for Childhood we

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: work very much in a community way and we

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: have seen and we have evidenced just how

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: powerful and influential communities are.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: They're part of that child's networks so

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: they're key in providing that advocacy.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: It doesn't all need to fall... The

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: responsibility doesn't fall just to the

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: social worker. And I think if we're going

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: to move with the times, if you like, we

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: need to think beyond traditional social

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: work models and when we consider

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: advocacy, we consider it as a big

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: picture. So those people in the community

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: will see a different version of the

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: parent and a different version of, once

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: the child gets older, than perhaps we do

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: as professionals. And it's only when we

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: tie all of that together that we really

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: get the full picture. And if we need to

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: intervene, offer early help or more

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: than early help support, we can do that

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: most effectively and most safely

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: when we all are together and we're all

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: working towards a common goal which,

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: ultimately, is keeping children safe.

MATT FORDE: And, you know, I think it's absolutely critical

MATT FORDE: for babies and infants that they have advocacy,

MATT FORDE: that their voice is heard.

MATT FORDE: And for their voice to be heard, there's no

MATT FORDE: shortcut. You need highly skilled

MATT FORDE: people who are able to understand

MATT FORDE: a baby or a toddler's experience

MATT FORDE: through the way that they communicate and

MATT FORDE: through understanding the quality of

MATT FORDE: their relationships and to understand

MATT FORDE: what has happened in their life; and to be able

MATT FORDE: to communicate for others who are

MATT FORDE: making decisions about these children or who are

MATT FORDE: responsible for care for these children; to be

MATT FORDE: able to communicate those

MATT FORDE: children's needs. That is skilled

MATT FORDE: work. In the NSPCC, we have teams of

MATT FORDE: multi-disciplinary professionals

MATT FORDE: who are able to do that kind of work and we've

MATT FORDE: demonstrated that that can be done.

MATT FORDE: And, you know, a practice example for us is in

MATT FORDE: our infant and family teams where we work with

MATT FORDE: children aged zero to five who have been removed

MATT FORDE: from their parents' care and who live with

MATT FORDE: foster carers.

MATT FORDE: We work with the foster parent and the child to

MATT FORDE: understand how that relationship

MATT FORDE: is going and to understand whether

MATT FORDE: or not it's good enough for that child's needs,

MATT FORDE: given that nearly always they've experienced

MATT FORDE: trauma, abuse, neglect.

MATT FORDE: And in that context of infant trauma,

MATT FORDE: we find that we

MATT FORDE: can we can express that child's

MATT FORDE: needs in their voice

MATT FORDE: in a way that provides a record for them when

MATT FORDE: they get older through a method we call narrative

MATT FORDE: books. So we produce these books which explain:

MATT FORDE: "Hi, I am..." — the name

MATT FORDE: of the child — "I'm living with"

MATT FORDE: — such and such, foster parents — "here's what's

MATT FORDE: happened to me and decisions that have been made

MATT FORDE: about me. Here's how I am." You know,

MATT FORDE: it could be that "I'm someone that doesn't...

MATT FORDE: When I first went to the foster parents, I

MATT FORDE: didn't seek comfort because in my life before,

MATT FORDE: I'd learned not, but know with my foster parents

MATT FORDE: that's getting better." So it's that kind of

MATT FORDE: articulating through an

MATT FORDE: understanding of what children need.

MATT FORDE: A narrative that is telling their story.

MATT FORDE: If there is to be a system of advocacy for

MATT FORDE: children in care, it really is crucial that

MATT FORDE: infants get that kind of access

MATT FORDE: to their voice being heard.

EAVAN MCKAY: We talked a bit about multi-agency working

EAVAN MCKAY: to support children and families. The principle

EAVAN MCKAY: of multi-agency working and the desire to

EAVAN MCKAY: have these multi-disciplinary teams is in the

EAVAN MCKAY: strategy, and that's something that the Government

EAVAN MCKAY: has said that they're committed to.

EAVAN MCKAY: And as well, linking to what you were saying

EAVAN MCKAY: about working with the whole family, the

EAVAN MCKAY: government talk about this idea in the strategy

EAVAN MCKAY: of a family-first approach.

EAVAN MCKAY: So this means that local authorities will

EAVAN MCKAY: actively seek out and work with a child's

EAVAN MCKAY: direct and extended family and friends in

EAVAN MCKAY: considering the best forms of support for the

EAVAN MCKAY: child and their family.

EAVAN MCKAY: And I guess my question is on those two points,

EAVAN MCKAY: on the multi-disciplinary and multi-agency

EAVAN MCKAY: working and on this idea of working with the

EAVAN MCKAY: whole family and a family-first approach.

EAVAN MCKAY: We've talked about the benefits, of which there

EAVAN MCKAY: is the so many and thinking about this future

EAVAN MCKAY: system, I guess what are some of the barriers

EAVAN MCKAY: to making that happen?

EAVAN MCKAY: I'm curious to hear your perspective from

EAVAN MCKAY: a practitioner level.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: What we find in practice, and certainly

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: what I found in my practice, is

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that the way the system currently

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: operates can perpetuate

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: or can create conflicting priorities

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: between organisations.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So there would need to be robust

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: working practices that ensure that

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: all of those multi-agencies are working

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: for a common goal without bias or

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: prejudice and without their own priority

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: taking over.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: The fact that the number one priority is

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: the children and the family at the heart

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: of this and at the centre of this.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: And I think you could speak to any practitioner

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: who has experienced difficulty in driving

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: forward plans because of bureaucracy

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: or because of conflicting priorities or

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: boundaries that their organisation might

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: create. So I think the principle works

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: well, but there needs to be really

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: careful consideration as to how that

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: principle is operationalised because the

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: people that are going to be responsible

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: for the success of children coming

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: from safe homes that are built on love

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: and are stable.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: It's the professionals that will need the

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: support, they need to be well-trained,

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: supported, resourced. Mutual respect

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: between professionals and an

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: understanding that there is that shared

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: accountability. That's the overarching

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: thing for me. That the accountability for

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: the success of the whole plan that is

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: underpinning the family needs to be

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: shared across in an equally respectful

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: way, shared across those and throughout

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: the multi-disciplinary.

MATT FORDE: So if I could add to that, you've painted a

MATT FORDE: really clear picture there Rachael of what a

MATT FORDE: functional system should look like.

MATT FORDE: The only thing I'd add to that is

MATT FORDE: what would be the glue that would hold that

MATT FORDE: together? It's not just structural or managerial

MATT FORDE: action that's needed there.

MATT FORDE: It's at the heart of it you need relationships

MATT FORDE: with families; meaningful, supportive

MATT FORDE: relationships. People are

MATT FORDE: human beings and what they need is a human

MATT FORDE: relationship with the professionals, and

MATT FORDE: having at the core a productive caring

MATT FORDE: relationship with the family involved

MATT FORDE: will help you then work with, advocate

MATT FORDE: for, stand beside that family as they navigate

MATT FORDE: what will, no matter what, will be a complex

MATT FORDE: system. And the relationship dimension

MATT FORDE: of it really to me is the sort of 'X factor'

MATT FORDE: that would make it all work.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: And I think the start of having a

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: workforce that can build those

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: relationships starts at recruitment and

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: really pulling out some of those values,

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: behaviours and attitudes.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: And if we are genuinely going to work

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: with families in a way that doesn't make

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: them feel shame, then we need to do so

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: with high levels of empathy and

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: understanding. There are supplementary

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: courses that people can access.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So, throughout your social work training,

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: teacher training, health visitor training,

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: there will be modules that encourage the

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: workforce to build relationships.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: How you do that sits with you and how you

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: make it better sits at experience.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So you will go out and there will be

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: times where you might work with a family

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: and things haven't gone to plan.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: Coming back, having a strong supportive

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: manager with a work culture that

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: doesn't operate in a blame way.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So we work through things together, talk

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: things out with peers, with mentors,

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: with your supervisor. How could you do

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: this better? But then there is also

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: training that can be accessed, such as

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: motivational interview training,

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: reflective practice training.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: There's reflective supervision.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So I think it's not a one size fits all.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: I think it starts with recruitment and it

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: starts with really employing people

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: who've got a solid value base that aligns

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: to social work. And then working with an

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: open mind with other professionals,

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: observing how they interact and

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: communicate with families, and really

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: learning back from families.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So if things haven't gone well, if

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: conversations haven't gone well, being

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: open to that feedback from families:

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: "okay, tell me what I could do better

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: next time", and really bringing them into

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that conversation.

EAVAN MCKAY: Yeah, I'm really glad you both

EAVAN MCKAY: brought up that point there about relationships

EAVAN MCKAY: and also the kind of the need to be able to

EAVAN MCKAY: equip social workers to be able to have that

EAVAN MCKAY: space to develop those relationships as well

EAVAN MCKAY: and to make sure they're strong.

EAVAN MCKAY: I guess one thing I'm thinking about is the

EAVAN MCKAY: proposals indicate that in this future system,

EAVAN MCKAY: when these reforms are fully rolled out, that

EAVAN MCKAY: non-social workers, so family health

EAVAN MCKAY: workers working alongside the family help teams

EAVAN MCKAY: — so these multi-disciplinary teams — may

EAVAN MCKAY: become the case holders for non-child

EAVAN MCKAY: protection cases. Are you supportive of this

EAVAN MCKAY: idea in principle and what would need to be in

EAVAN MCKAY: place to make it work in practice as well?

MATT FORDE: I think what's important is what would

MATT FORDE: the skills be of the workers who would be

MATT FORDE: supporting families? So would they have

MATT FORDE: the ability to be able to understand

MATT FORDE: children's needs, especially young children's

MATT FORDE: needs, but children's needs in a developmentally

MATT FORDE: informed way.

MATT FORDE: Would they be able to understand what is

MATT FORDE: important in parent-child relationships and

MATT FORDE: how to assess what is going on.

MATT FORDE: Would they have the ability to form caring

MATT FORDE: relationships within a professional relationship

MATT FORDE: with families, to enable them to navigate the

MATT FORDE: stresses and pressures that they face.

MATT FORDE: The answer for social workers would be yes to

MATT FORDE: most of that, although I do think we could do

MATT FORDE: more to equip social workers with theoretical

MATT FORDE: and practical expertise in child

MATT FORDE: development, parent-child relationships,

MATT FORDE: understanding intergenerational trauma.

MATT FORDE: And I think the focus within children's

MATT FORDE: social work has been dominated by

MATT FORDE: assessment of risk, identification and

MATT FORDE: assessment of risk and management of risk — and

MATT FORDE: that's what dominates.

MATT FORDE: That's a dominant paradigm.

MATT FORDE: The risk paradigm.

MATT FORDE: Really, having a more person-centred approach

MATT FORDE: is something that all professionals maybe need

MATT FORDE: help with recentring their practice.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: I completely agree. I think it comes back

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: to the first point we made around the

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: principle is fine as long as it's safely

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: delivered.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: And that is exactly what Matt's just

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: spoken about there, the training, the

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: support, the reflective supervision, but

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: also the oversight.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So I think I'm right in my understanding

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that whilst the case holders could be

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: non-social workers, the oversight would

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: come from a lead professional or somebody

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that was a qualified social worker that really

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: did understand child safeguarding; so

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: could have the safeguarding oversight

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: whilst the specific actions within the

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: plan were delivered and coordinated by

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: another professional.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: I think the difficulty again comes back

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: to some of the professional boundaries.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So, when we think about how do we form

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: relationships, they don't happen

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: overnight, especially for families who

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: have got issues with trusting

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: professionals because of previous

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: experiences, you know, parents who are

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: maybe care-experienced themselves or have

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: had a difficult relationship with

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: professionals are going to find it very

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: hard to automatically trust somebody,

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: whatever their title may be.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: The negative could come from giving the

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: responsibility for the coordination of a

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: family help plan or system

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: to a professional within an organisation

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that is time limited.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So if we can say to some of the organisations

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that we work alongside, they run 12 or 18

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: week programs, that may not be long

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: enough. And then we're expecting families

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: to form new relationships with a new

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: co-ordinator. So there'd need to be some

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: robustness around the lead

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: worker remaining the lead worker and

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: organisational time restrictions not

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: playing into that or not becoming a

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: priority. So if it takes six or seven or

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: eight weeks to build that relationship,

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that doesn't mean that you've only got

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: six weeks left because that's what we say

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: as an organisation you're entitled to.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: However, I also think the relationship

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: with some professionals outside of social

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: work can be extremely positive.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: I've seen family support workers do

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: exceptional work with children and

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: families. I've seen health visitors,

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: school link workers really make a

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: difference. And some of that comes

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: because they have that really positive

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: relationship. It's a non-threatening

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: relationship.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: It's not a shameful relationship.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: It's not a relationship that brings any

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: kind of stigma because these are

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: universal services that all families are

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: entitled to that may then become

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: targeted, but it doesn't bring with it an

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: element of threat or an element of shame

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: or an element of stigma.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: It's a more nurturing model.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: The relationship underpins the plan.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: The success of the plan is to do with the

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: structure, so it's the wider system and

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: how that structure supports the delivery.

MATT FORDE: One of the things that workers need to do to

MATT FORDE: be able to be part of a non-stigmatising

MATT FORDE: conversation is to respect families' rights

MATT FORDE: to say no to elements of things.

MATT FORDE: You've been signposted over here and over there.

MATT FORDE: If that's not going to work, and family says so,

MATT FORDE: can we please listen to that. And

MATT FORDE: similar points about picking up the one time

MATT FORDE: that somebody says something, you have to

MATT FORDE: respond that one time. Particularly when people

MATT FORDE: talk about things that they think are shameful,

MATT FORDE: like not having enough food. Or are

MATT FORDE: really suffering, you know, financial hardship,

MATT FORDE: those sorts of issues that if they're said once,

MATT FORDE: you have to pick them up.

MATT FORDE: And that's really not about the grade of worker

MATT FORDE: is it, it's about how we equip people

MATT FORDE: with an orientation to help and provide

MATT FORDE: the support to them to be the helpers.

MATT FORDE: And also that we continue to learn and lesson

MATT FORDE: from lived experience.

EAVAN MCKAY: Starting with the idea of "what is the

EAVAN MCKAY: experience of the family" leads us also

EAVAN MCKAY: to asking that question of "what's the

EAVAN MCKAY: motivation of this policy?" And it kind of

EAVAN MCKAY: links to your earlier point, Rachel, about

EAVAN MCKAY: who decides who will lead the cases, for

EAVAN MCKAY: example, when it is a family help worker versus

EAVAN MCKAY: when it is a social worker?

EAVAN MCKAY: I think that feels really crucial because

EAVAN MCKAY: it has to be, you know, whilst there can be so

EAVAN MCKAY: many benefits to the possibility of having a

EAVAN MCKAY: wider field of professionals — or

EAVAN MCKAY: non-professionals as well, you talk about that

EAVAN MCKAY: Matt as well as it not being so

EAVAN MCKAY: professionalised but a wider group of people

EAVAN MCKAY: who can work with families — it

EAVAN MCKAY: has to be about if it's right for the family

EAVAN MCKAY: and it's right for the child, rather than it

EAVAN MCKAY: being motivated by anything else.

EAVAN MCKAY: And it feels like, you know, what we can't have

EAVAN MCKAY: is the idea that family health workers could be

EAVAN MCKAY: a silver bullet to saving money because that is

EAVAN MCKAY: not in the interests of children and families

EAVAN MCKAY: at all. So the government plans to introduce

EAVAN MCKAY: a new lead child protection

EAVAN MCKAY: practitioner role. So this practitioner will

EAVAN MCKAY: have a minimum of five years social work

EAVAN MCKAY: experience and will complete advanced

EAVAN MCKAY: specialist child protection training.

EAVAN MCKAY: Our understanding is this new role will be

EAVAN MCKAY: across the system. It won't just be for family

EAVAN MCKAY: help teams. My question is around...

EAVAN MCKAY: What are your thoughts on this new role?

EAVAN MCKAY: Thinking about the benefits to the system it

EAVAN MCKAY: could have, but also any risks you might

EAVAN MCKAY: foresee in terms of the implementation.

MATT FORDE: To me, the crucial issue is what are the

MATT FORDE: advanced skills and knowledge that this person

MATT FORDE: would have. The way that we've structured child

MATT FORDE: protection as a social work-led activity

MATT FORDE: has locked into a professional framework

MATT FORDE: that doesn't really value expertise.

MATT FORDE: That, you know, if you progress as a social

MATT FORDE: worker, you become a manager and stop being

MATT FORDE: involved with families. Whereas in health

MATT FORDE: professions and mental health, for example,

MATT FORDE: psychologists and psychiatrists and

MATT FORDE: psychotherapists progress to become consultants

MATT FORDE: who are at a higher level of skill and

MATT FORDE: expertise, but continue to be in practice with

MATT FORDE: families. I think that is the

MATT FORDE: kind of structure we should have professionally

MATT FORDE: around the social work professionals or child

MATT FORDE: protection professionals who are doing the most

MATT FORDE: complex and challenging work.

MATT FORDE: They should have... They should have a level

MATT FORDE: of skill and expertise that's commensurate with

MATT FORDE: the complexity of children's needs and families'

MATT FORDE: lives.

MATT FORDE: But it's what that is, because my concern

MATT FORDE: would be that it would be a kind of

MATT FORDE: amplification of the risk assessment

MATT FORDE: mode that our system is locked in.

MATT FORDE: And it would really need to be supplemented by

MATT FORDE: skills which understand how it is you help

MATT FORDE: families. I mean, to understand how we negotiate

MATT FORDE: the benefits system; how you improve families'

MATT FORDE: ability to care for themselves and bring in

MATT FORDE: adequate income; how you understand mental

MATT FORDE: health, and what it is that drives

MATT FORDE: the stresses that undermine mental health; to

MATT FORDE: understand intergenerational trauma;

MATT FORDE: parent-child relationships; infant trauma, to

MATT FORDE: understand what it is that pressures on whole

MATT FORDE: families and whole communities.

MATT FORDE: Those are dimensions that are kind of missing

MATT FORDE: from, you know, the fairly arid assessments of

MATT FORDE: risk that result in — I'm oversimplifying —

MATT FORDE: but result in ultimatums

MATT FORDE: to families to change things by a certain time

MATT FORDE: or there will be action, instead of getting

MATT FORDE: alongside.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So, in terms of that lead professional

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: role, I think having a social

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: worker and somebody with that level of

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: safeguarding expertise is crucial

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: in ensuring that all of the — whoever is

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that's leading the plan — and all of the

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: multi agencies that are part of that

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: plan, there does need to be somebody that

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: can always bring this back to "how safe

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: is this child?" and can knowingly, with

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: expertise, be able to answer that

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: question, support the professionals to

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: demonstrate that curiosity when

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: necessary, really challenge professionals

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: to keep thinking about safety as well as

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: their own expertise.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So that role is crucial in that space.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: And I think whether that's a lead professional

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: or another title, having

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: space or the opportunity to grow and

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: develop professionally for a social

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: worker is really important.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: And it might support some of the issues

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: around retaining good staff because you

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: can see a progression opportunity.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So I do think in terms of continuing

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: to make sure that the child remains safe

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: in the family and that the plan is

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: effective, in terms of meeting the needs,

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: but ultimately keeping the child safe; to

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: have that professional, whether it's a

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: lead social worker or a social worker,

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: having oversight of a plan is crucial.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: That's how we keep children safe.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: That's why social workers are here;

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: because we want to keep children safe.

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: And when they're not safe, we want to

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: take action to bring them back to a place

RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: of safety.

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