1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,209 INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where we 2 00:00:06,210 --> 00:00:09,269 INTRO: share learning and expertise in child protection from 3 00:00:09,270 --> 00:00:12,299 INTRO: inside and outside of the organisation. 4 00:00:12,300 --> 00:00:15,389 INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and 5 00:00:15,390 --> 00:00:18,539 INTRO: share good practice on how we can all work together 6 00:00:18,540 --> 00:00:21,269 INTRO: to keep babies, children and young people safe. 7 00:00:24,490 --> 00:00:26,169 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Welcome to the NSPCC Learning 8 00:00:26,170 --> 00:00:28,419 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Podcast. This is the second half 9 00:00:28,420 --> 00:00:30,009 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): of a two part podcast series, 10 00:00:30,010 --> 00:00:32,709 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): recorded in July 2023, looking 11 00:00:32,710 --> 00:00:34,299 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): at the UK government's strategy 12 00:00:34,300 --> 00:00:35,799 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): to reform children's social care 13 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:37,839 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): in England, 'Stable Homes, Built 14 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,129 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): on Love'. 15 00:00:39,130 --> 00:00:40,539 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): In the previous episode, we 16 00:00:40,540 --> 00:00:42,339 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): interviewed Josh MacAlister, who 17 00:00:42,340 --> 00:00:43,719 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): chaired the Independent Review 18 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:45,999 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): of Children's Social Care in England. 19 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:47,499 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): In his foreword to the review's 20 00:00:47,500 --> 00:00:49,209 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): final report, Josh described the 21 00:00:49,210 --> 00:00:50,709 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): need for a care system that will 22 00:00:50,710 --> 00:00:52,209 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): get alongside and strengthen the 23 00:00:52,210 --> 00:00:53,709 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): families and communities that 24 00:00:53,710 --> 00:00:55,209 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): children grow up in. 25 00:00:55,210 --> 00:00:56,649 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): In this episode, a panel of 26 00:00:56,650 --> 00:00:58,779 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): experts from within the NSPCC 27 00:00:58,780 --> 00:01:00,519 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): are going to discuss how the proposals 28 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:02,199 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): laid out in 'Stable Homes, Built 29 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:04,659 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): on Love' can achieve this goal. 30 00:01:04,660 --> 00:01:06,069 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): The discussion will focus on the 31 00:01:06,070 --> 00:01:07,449 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): proposed reforms to family 32 00:01:07,450 --> 00:01:09,519 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): support and early help services, 33 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:11,319 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): what these might look like in practice, 34 00:01:11,320 --> 00:01:12,939 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): and how they might meet the needs 35 00:01:12,940 --> 00:01:14,200 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): of children and families. 36 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:22,029 EAVAN MCKAY: Hi, I'm Eavan Mckay. 37 00:01:22,030 --> 00:01:24,609 EAVAN MCKAY: I'm Senior Policy and Public Affairs Officer 38 00:01:24,610 --> 00:01:27,609 EAVAN MCKAY: here at the NSPCC and my brief focuses on 39 00:01:27,610 --> 00:01:30,099 EAVAN MCKAY: children's social care and child protection. 40 00:01:30,100 --> 00:01:33,219 MATT FORDE: Hi, I'm Matt Forde, I'm a Partnerships and 41 00:01:33,220 --> 00:01:36,729 MATT FORDE: Development Director here at the NSPCC, 42 00:01:36,730 --> 00:01:38,859 MATT FORDE: and I'm responsible for the services that we run 43 00:01:38,860 --> 00:01:42,429 MATT FORDE: in partnership with others, with a big focus on 44 00:01:42,430 --> 00:01:45,309 MATT FORDE: the early years and on the prevention of child 45 00:01:45,310 --> 00:01:46,479 MATT FORDE: sexual abuse. 46 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:48,369 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: Hi, my name's Rachel Holdcroft, I'm the 47 00:01:48,370 --> 00:01:50,589 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: Strategic Service Manager at Together for 48 00:01:50,590 --> 00:01:52,719 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: Childhood in Stoke on Trent. 49 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:55,959 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So I oversee the direct casework and 50 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:58,209 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: the development work here in Stoke, all 51 00:01:58,210 --> 00:01:59,949 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: of which focuses on prevention of child 52 00:01:59,950 --> 00:02:00,487 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: sexual abuse. 53 00:02:00,488 --> 00:02:03,339 EAVAN MCKAY: 'Stable Homes, Built on Love' talks about 54 00:02:03,340 --> 00:02:05,169 EAVAN MCKAY: providing families with the right support at 55 00:02:05,170 --> 00:02:08,168 EAVAN MCKAY: the right time and proposes the rollout of 56 00:02:08,169 --> 00:02:10,689 EAVAN MCKAY: new, multi-disciplinary family help teams to 57 00:02:10,690 --> 00:02:12,909 EAVAN MCKAY: provide earlier support to families so they 58 00:02:12,910 --> 00:02:15,099 EAVAN MCKAY: don't reach crisis point. 59 00:02:15,100 --> 00:02:17,139 EAVAN MCKAY: This will involve bringing together targeted 60 00:02:17,140 --> 00:02:20,079 EAVAN MCKAY: early help and child in need into a single 61 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:21,939 EAVAN MCKAY: family help service. 62 00:02:21,940 --> 00:02:25,089 EAVAN MCKAY: So my question for you both to start is 63 00:02:25,090 --> 00:02:27,519 EAVAN MCKAY: what are your thoughts on these proposals in 64 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,549 EAVAN MCKAY: principle and what do you think is needed to 65 00:02:30,550 --> 00:02:32,919 EAVAN MCKAY: help them work in practice? 66 00:02:32,920 --> 00:02:35,979 MATT FORDE: The principle that what we want to do 67 00:02:35,980 --> 00:02:38,169 MATT FORDE: is get alongside families at a time that 68 00:02:39,580 --> 00:02:43,179 MATT FORDE: helps them is a good one. 69 00:02:43,180 --> 00:02:46,659 MATT FORDE: I think there are some missing parts of the 70 00:02:46,660 --> 00:02:47,660 MATT FORDE: story. 71 00:02:48,900 --> 00:02:51,219 MATT FORDE: The care review, right from the start, the case 72 00:02:51,220 --> 00:02:53,709 MATT FORDE: for change for the care review, said we need to 73 00:02:53,710 --> 00:02:56,949 MATT FORDE: do more to help families and 74 00:02:56,950 --> 00:03:01,119 MATT FORDE: identify the context of poverty and inequality. 75 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,449 MATT FORDE: The review report itself said 76 00:03:04,450 --> 00:03:07,659 MATT FORDE: that we have to address that wider 77 00:03:07,660 --> 00:03:10,689 MATT FORDE: context that drives the demand for children's 78 00:03:10,690 --> 00:03:14,079 MATT FORDE: social care and the stress on families 79 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:17,529 MATT FORDE: and the impact that has on outcomes for 80 00:03:17,530 --> 00:03:21,489 MATT FORDE: children. And I think the other dimension 81 00:03:21,490 --> 00:03:25,089 MATT FORDE: that isn't present there or isn't visible, is 82 00:03:25,090 --> 00:03:27,819 MATT FORDE: an understanding of the particular importance of 83 00:03:27,820 --> 00:03:30,101 MATT FORDE: early childhood and of getting it 84 00:03:31,150 --> 00:03:33,399 MATT FORDE: so that families with very young children, from 85 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,039 MATT FORDE: pregnancy onwards, get the support that they 86 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:38,979 MATT FORDE: need to be able to give the children a start in 87 00:03:38,980 --> 00:03:40,869 MATT FORDE: life that makes all the difference. 88 00:03:40,870 --> 00:03:43,689 MATT FORDE: And when you think about children's social care, 89 00:03:43,690 --> 00:03:46,569 MATT FORDE: what heaves into view in your mind is a teenager 90 00:03:46,570 --> 00:03:48,639 MATT FORDE: in a children's home or maybe in a foster care 91 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,669 MATT FORDE: placement. But actually the 92 00:03:51,670 --> 00:03:53,409 MATT FORDE: majority of children in the children's social 93 00:03:53,410 --> 00:03:55,629 MATT FORDE: care system had their first encounters with 94 00:03:55,630 --> 00:03:58,629 MATT FORDE: children's social care before they were five, 95 00:03:58,630 --> 00:04:01,059 MATT FORDE: and a very sizeable chunk of the children 96 00:04:01,060 --> 00:04:03,639 MATT FORDE: actually, in our social care system are under 97 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:04,929 MATT FORDE: five. 98 00:04:04,930 --> 00:04:07,839 MATT FORDE: And it's a testament to the failure to support 99 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,389 MATT FORDE: those children that we have children spending a 100 00:04:10,390 --> 00:04:12,399 MATT FORDE: whole childhood in a care system rather than in 101 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:13,569 MATT FORDE: families. 102 00:04:13,570 --> 00:04:16,214 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: I agree with and echo, really, what Matt 103 00:04:16,215 --> 00:04:19,119 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: has just said there, I think the other 104 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:22,419 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: thing for me just to add is 105 00:04:22,420 --> 00:04:25,269 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that as a sentence or a principle or as a 106 00:04:25,270 --> 00:04:27,789 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: declaration, I think most people in this 107 00:04:27,790 --> 00:04:30,189 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: profession would support the idea that we 108 00:04:30,190 --> 00:04:32,559 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: bring together early help services for 109 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:34,509 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: families and offer that support to create 110 00:04:34,510 --> 00:04:36,399 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: stable homes at the earliest point 111 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:37,809 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: possible. 112 00:04:37,810 --> 00:04:41,169 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: One of the concerns that I would have 113 00:04:41,170 --> 00:04:44,589 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: is that in practice we would need 114 00:04:44,590 --> 00:04:48,159 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: skilled, well-resourced practitioners 115 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:50,499 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: who are able to deliver that type of 116 00:04:50,500 --> 00:04:53,799 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: service. And the other concern is around 117 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:56,049 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: what early health actually is. 118 00:04:56,050 --> 00:04:58,689 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So across the nation there's different 119 00:04:58,690 --> 00:05:00,699 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: thresholds that are applied when 120 00:05:00,700 --> 00:05:02,259 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: determining whether or not a family would 121 00:05:02,260 --> 00:05:04,119 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: qualify for an early help service. 122 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:06,429 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: And, I kind of say that in inverted 123 00:05:06,430 --> 00:05:08,589 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: commas. That differentiation and 124 00:05:08,590 --> 00:05:11,679 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: thresholds can create national 125 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:13,029 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: inequality. 126 00:05:13,030 --> 00:05:14,529 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: And I think what we need to- what needs 127 00:05:14,530 --> 00:05:18,459 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: to underpin this principle is universal, 128 00:05:18,460 --> 00:05:20,499 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: positive protective messaging. 129 00:05:20,500 --> 00:05:22,659 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So tackling a problem before it's 130 00:05:22,660 --> 00:05:24,669 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: happened, so that we're not waiting until 131 00:05:24,670 --> 00:05:27,459 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: families are in crisis or in need of 132 00:05:27,460 --> 00:05:30,369 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: help. We're already giving those positive 133 00:05:30,370 --> 00:05:31,781 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: messages, and that's exactly what Matt's 134 00:05:31,782 --> 00:05:34,089 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: just said. So from pregnancy, right 135 00:05:34,090 --> 00:05:35,266 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: through the early years; informative, 136 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:41,409 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: practical, accessible, positive messaging 137 00:05:41,410 --> 00:05:43,419 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: and help to be shared, you know, is 138 00:05:43,420 --> 00:05:46,479 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: shared with families at that point. 139 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:48,129 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: That way, there's trust in services 140 00:05:48,130 --> 00:05:49,809 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that's built so that if they need 141 00:05:49,810 --> 00:05:52,149 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: additional targeted services, that trust, 142 00:05:52,150 --> 00:05:54,279 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that relationship and that mutual respect 143 00:05:54,280 --> 00:05:55,566 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: is already embedded in practice. 144 00:05:55,567 --> 00:05:58,029 EAVAN MCKAY: Yeah, I completely agree. 145 00:05:58,030 --> 00:06:01,689 EAVAN MCKAY: And I think that point about what do we mean by 146 00:06:01,690 --> 00:06:03,789 EAVAN MCKAY: early help as well is a really important one. 147 00:06:03,790 --> 00:06:06,019 EAVAN MCKAY: So Matt, you've already talked about babies, 148 00:06:06,020 --> 00:06:07,398 EAVAN MCKAY: infants and the needs of babies and infants, 149 00:06:07,399 --> 00:06:10,449 EAVAN MCKAY: and that was definitely a question I wanted to 150 00:06:10,450 --> 00:06:13,209 EAVAN MCKAY: pick up. The specific needs of babies and 151 00:06:13,210 --> 00:06:15,279 EAVAN MCKAY: infants, as you say, is definitely not a strong 152 00:06:15,280 --> 00:06:17,529 EAVAN MCKAY: focus in 'Stable Homes, Built on Love'. 153 00:06:17,530 --> 00:06:19,389 EAVAN MCKAY: We know babies and infants are the group that 154 00:06:19,390 --> 00:06:22,299 EAVAN MCKAY: are most at risk of abuse and neglect and 155 00:06:22,300 --> 00:06:24,279 EAVAN MCKAY: potentially less child with a social worker. 156 00:06:24,280 --> 00:06:26,049 EAVAN MCKAY: They're also the group who are least seen by 157 00:06:26,050 --> 00:06:27,759 EAVAN MCKAY: agencies and services. 158 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:29,649 EAVAN MCKAY: What would a future children's social care 159 00:06:29,650 --> 00:06:32,469 EAVAN MCKAY: system that truly meets the needs of babies and 160 00:06:32,470 --> 00:06:34,029 EAVAN MCKAY: infants, what would it look like? 161 00:06:35,340 --> 00:06:37,229 MATT FORDE: Other ways of describing what it what it would 162 00:06:37,230 --> 00:06:39,569 MATT FORDE: look like would be about how it's experienced by 163 00:06:39,570 --> 00:06:41,909 MATT FORDE: families. Hearing the voice of children who are 164 00:06:41,910 --> 00:06:45,089 MATT FORDE: under five; it's also about understanding what 165 00:06:45,090 --> 00:06:47,789 MATT FORDE: what their parents need to be the parents that 166 00:06:47,790 --> 00:06:49,979 MATT FORDE: they want to be, and to understand their 167 00:06:49,980 --> 00:06:52,619 MATT FORDE: experiences in the world and to understand how 168 00:06:52,620 --> 00:06:55,127 MATT FORDE: they may well be experiencing incredible stress. 169 00:06:55,128 --> 00:06:57,749 MATT FORDE: Locked in poverty, families involved in the 170 00:06:57,750 --> 00:07:00,899 MATT FORDE: child protection system. They're in double 171 00:07:00,900 --> 00:07:03,899 MATT FORDE: jeopardy because they have all of 172 00:07:03,900 --> 00:07:06,809 MATT FORDE: the pressures and stresses that come from 173 00:07:06,810 --> 00:07:08,603 MATT FORDE: inadequate income, insecure housing, living in 174 00:07:10,500 --> 00:07:13,619 MATT FORDE: hard-pressed neighbourhoods, and 175 00:07:13,620 --> 00:07:16,109 MATT FORDE: then family crisis that's led them into 176 00:07:16,110 --> 00:07:19,979 MATT FORDE: interaction with children's social care and 177 00:07:19,980 --> 00:07:23,249 MATT FORDE: that experience of working with children's 178 00:07:23,250 --> 00:07:27,359 MATT FORDE: social care can often be further 179 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,929 MATT FORDE: stigmatising and stress-inducing for families. 180 00:07:30,930 --> 00:07:32,879 MATT FORDE: And what the system would look like would be a 181 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,129 MATT FORDE: system that had services that got alongside 182 00:07:35,130 --> 00:07:37,979 MATT FORDE: families, that stood with families, that said, 183 00:07:37,980 --> 00:07:40,409 MATT FORDE: "how can we help?" That said, "where are your 184 00:07:40,410 --> 00:07:42,239 MATT FORDE: strengths and how can we build on them? 185 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:44,189 MATT FORDE: How can we actually give you practical and 186 00:07:44,190 --> 00:07:46,469 MATT FORDE: material help to alleviate some of this 187 00:07:46,470 --> 00:07:49,829 MATT FORDE: pressure?" And at the same time, let's 188 00:07:49,830 --> 00:07:52,559 MATT FORDE: try and understand where relationships need to 189 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:54,887 MATT FORDE: be helped and where things might have gone wrong 190 00:07:54,888 --> 00:07:56,819 MATT FORDE: and we can get them back on track. 191 00:07:56,820 --> 00:07:58,529 MATT FORDE: It's not an either or, it's both. 192 00:07:58,530 --> 00:08:02,009 MATT FORDE: And the system would be something that 193 00:08:02,010 --> 00:08:03,779 MATT FORDE: was experienced by families as something that 194 00:08:03,780 --> 00:08:05,789 MATT FORDE: was genuinely there to help. 195 00:08:05,790 --> 00:08:08,429 MATT FORDE: So you wouldn't have to navigate, you know, 196 00:08:08,430 --> 00:08:11,969 MATT FORDE: hostile systems of appointments set in distant 197 00:08:11,970 --> 00:08:15,059 MATT FORDE: places at times it's difficult to get to that 198 00:08:15,060 --> 00:08:17,489 MATT FORDE: when you got there there would be food available 199 00:08:17,490 --> 00:08:19,559 MATT FORDE: so that your child wouldn't be hungry during the 200 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:21,389 MATT FORDE: appointment and you wouldn't have to ask for it. 201 00:08:22,630 --> 00:08:25,020 MATT FORDE: It would be an expectation that 202 00:08:27,180 --> 00:08:29,369 MATT FORDE: your story wouldn't have to be told over and 203 00:08:29,370 --> 00:08:31,469 MATT FORDE: over again, that you wouldn't have to go back to 204 00:08:31,470 --> 00:08:34,619 MATT FORDE: the beginning ever, that you would... 205 00:08:34,620 --> 00:08:37,109 MATT FORDE: That you would experience workers being alert 206 00:08:37,110 --> 00:08:40,408 MATT FORDE: and oriented to try and understand what 207 00:08:40,409 --> 00:08:43,439 MATT FORDE: your story is, and they would have time 208 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:45,179 MATT FORDE: to listen to you. So these are all 209 00:08:45,180 --> 00:08:47,519 MATT FORDE: characteristics of a system that would be 210 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:49,259 MATT FORDE: getting alongside people. 211 00:08:49,260 --> 00:08:51,479 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: The question, Eavan, that you posed was 212 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:53,549 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: around what would a social care system 213 00:08:53,550 --> 00:08:55,919 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: look like? And I think we need to really 214 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:57,959 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: consider what a social care system is 215 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:00,449 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: before we can purposefully or 216 00:09:00,450 --> 00:09:02,549 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: meaningfully answer that question. 217 00:09:02,550 --> 00:09:04,229 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So a social care system is beyond a 218 00:09:04,230 --> 00:09:05,230 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: social worker. 219 00:09:06,060 --> 00:09:08,009 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: The social care system for me needs to be 220 00:09:08,010 --> 00:09:10,739 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: all of that child, baby, infant, parent 221 00:09:10,740 --> 00:09:13,379 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: social network, including communities as 222 00:09:13,380 --> 00:09:14,909 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: well as just professionals. 223 00:09:14,910 --> 00:09:16,679 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: And if we're really going to affect 224 00:09:16,680 --> 00:09:18,419 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: change here, I think it's crucial to 225 00:09:18,420 --> 00:09:21,419 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: bring everybody on that journey with us. 226 00:09:21,420 --> 00:09:22,799 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: In Stoke and Together for Childhood we 227 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,229 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: work very much in a community way and we 228 00:09:25,230 --> 00:09:28,379 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: have seen and we have evidenced just how 229 00:09:28,380 --> 00:09:31,079 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: powerful and influential communities are. 230 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:32,849 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: They're part of that child's networks so 231 00:09:32,850 --> 00:09:35,189 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: they're key in providing that advocacy. 232 00:09:35,190 --> 00:09:36,303 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: It doesn't all need to fall... The 233 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:38,999 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: responsibility doesn't fall just to the 234 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:40,709 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: social worker. And I think if we're going 235 00:09:40,710 --> 00:09:42,719 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: to move with the times, if you like, we 236 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:44,819 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: need to think beyond traditional social 237 00:09:44,820 --> 00:09:46,829 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: work models and when we consider 238 00:09:46,830 --> 00:09:49,499 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: advocacy, we consider it as a big 239 00:09:49,500 --> 00:09:52,379 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: picture. So those people in the community 240 00:09:52,380 --> 00:09:53,849 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: will see a different version of the 241 00:09:53,850 --> 00:09:56,519 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: parent and a different version of, once 242 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:58,739 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: the child gets older, than perhaps we do 243 00:09:58,740 --> 00:10:01,109 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: as professionals. And it's only when we 244 00:10:01,110 --> 00:10:03,539 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: tie all of that together that we really 245 00:10:03,540 --> 00:10:05,579 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: get the full picture. And if we need to 246 00:10:05,580 --> 00:10:08,669 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: intervene, offer early help or more 247 00:10:08,670 --> 00:10:10,829 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: than early help support, we can do that 248 00:10:10,830 --> 00:10:14,339 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: most effectively and most safely 249 00:10:14,340 --> 00:10:16,169 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: when we all are together and we're all 250 00:10:16,170 --> 00:10:17,969 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: working towards a common goal which, 251 00:10:17,970 --> 00:10:19,799 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: ultimately, is keeping children safe. 252 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,249 MATT FORDE: And, you know, I think it's absolutely critical 253 00:10:23,250 --> 00:10:25,319 MATT FORDE: for babies and infants that they have advocacy, 254 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:26,320 MATT FORDE: that their voice is heard. 255 00:10:27,210 --> 00:10:30,629 MATT FORDE: And for their voice to be heard, there's no 256 00:10:30,630 --> 00:10:32,880 MATT FORDE: shortcut. You need highly skilled 257 00:10:33,990 --> 00:10:37,289 MATT FORDE: people who are able to understand 258 00:10:37,290 --> 00:10:40,319 MATT FORDE: a baby or a toddler's experience 259 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,049 MATT FORDE: through the way that they communicate and 260 00:10:43,050 --> 00:10:46,229 MATT FORDE: through understanding the quality of 261 00:10:46,230 --> 00:10:49,469 MATT FORDE: their relationships and to understand 262 00:10:49,470 --> 00:10:52,349 MATT FORDE: what has happened in their life; and to be able 263 00:10:52,350 --> 00:10:55,439 MATT FORDE: to communicate for others who are 264 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,409 MATT FORDE: making decisions about these children or who are 265 00:10:58,410 --> 00:11:00,929 MATT FORDE: responsible for care for these children; to be 266 00:11:00,930 --> 00:11:03,989 MATT FORDE: able to communicate those 267 00:11:03,990 --> 00:11:07,229 MATT FORDE: children's needs. That is skilled 268 00:11:07,230 --> 00:11:10,049 MATT FORDE: work. In the NSPCC, we have teams of 269 00:11:10,050 --> 00:11:13,079 MATT FORDE: multi-disciplinary professionals 270 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:15,519 MATT FORDE: who are able to do that kind of work and we've 271 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,089 MATT FORDE: demonstrated that that can be done. 272 00:11:18,090 --> 00:11:20,549 MATT FORDE: And, you know, a practice example for us is in 273 00:11:20,550 --> 00:11:23,939 MATT FORDE: our infant and family teams where we work with 274 00:11:23,940 --> 00:11:26,729 MATT FORDE: children aged zero to five who have been removed 275 00:11:26,730 --> 00:11:29,549 MATT FORDE: from their parents' care and who live with 276 00:11:29,550 --> 00:11:30,989 MATT FORDE: foster carers. 277 00:11:30,990 --> 00:11:33,479 MATT FORDE: We work with the foster parent and the child to 278 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:37,059 MATT FORDE: understand how that relationship 279 00:11:37,060 --> 00:11:40,149 MATT FORDE: is going and to understand whether 280 00:11:40,150 --> 00:11:42,699 MATT FORDE: or not it's good enough for that child's needs, 281 00:11:42,700 --> 00:11:45,639 MATT FORDE: given that nearly always they've experienced 282 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:48,189 MATT FORDE: trauma, abuse, neglect. 283 00:11:48,190 --> 00:11:51,279 MATT FORDE: And in that context of infant trauma, 284 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:52,300 MATT FORDE: we find that we 285 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:58,149 MATT FORDE: can we can express that child's 286 00:11:58,150 --> 00:12:01,449 MATT FORDE: needs in their voice 287 00:12:01,450 --> 00:12:04,239 MATT FORDE: in a way that provides a record for them when 288 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:05,552 MATT FORDE: they get older through a method we call narrative 289 00:12:07,900 --> 00:12:10,417 MATT FORDE: books. So we produce these books which explain: 290 00:12:10,418 --> 00:12:13,539 MATT FORDE: "Hi, I am..." — the name 291 00:12:13,540 --> 00:12:16,769 MATT FORDE: of the child — "I'm living with" 292 00:12:16,770 --> 00:12:18,849 MATT FORDE: — such and such, foster parents — "here's what's 293 00:12:18,850 --> 00:12:21,549 MATT FORDE: happened to me and decisions that have been made 294 00:12:21,550 --> 00:12:25,329 MATT FORDE: about me. Here's how I am." You know, 295 00:12:25,330 --> 00:12:28,359 MATT FORDE: it could be that "I'm someone that doesn't... 296 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,209 MATT FORDE: When I first went to the foster parents, I 297 00:12:31,210 --> 00:12:35,349 MATT FORDE: didn't seek comfort because in my life before, 298 00:12:35,350 --> 00:12:38,589 MATT FORDE: I'd learned not, but know with my foster parents 299 00:12:38,590 --> 00:12:41,679 MATT FORDE: that's getting better." So it's that kind of 300 00:12:41,680 --> 00:12:44,709 MATT FORDE: articulating through an 301 00:12:44,710 --> 00:12:46,193 MATT FORDE: understanding of what children need. 302 00:12:47,650 --> 00:12:50,199 MATT FORDE: A narrative that is telling their story. 303 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,289 MATT FORDE: If there is to be a system of advocacy for 304 00:12:53,290 --> 00:12:56,079 MATT FORDE: children in care, it really is crucial that 305 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:59,379 MATT FORDE: infants get that kind of access 306 00:12:59,380 --> 00:13:02,259 MATT FORDE: to their voice being heard. 307 00:13:02,260 --> 00:13:05,739 EAVAN MCKAY: We talked a bit about multi-agency working 308 00:13:07,150 --> 00:13:09,999 EAVAN MCKAY: to support children and families. The principle 309 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,239 EAVAN MCKAY: of multi-agency working and the desire to 310 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:15,879 EAVAN MCKAY: have these multi-disciplinary teams is in the 311 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:17,379 EAVAN MCKAY: strategy, and that's something that the Government 312 00:13:17,380 --> 00:13:19,029 EAVAN MCKAY: has said that they're committed to. 313 00:13:19,030 --> 00:13:21,069 EAVAN MCKAY: And as well, linking to what you were saying 314 00:13:21,070 --> 00:13:24,159 EAVAN MCKAY: about working with the whole family, the 315 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:26,649 EAVAN MCKAY: government talk about this idea in the strategy 316 00:13:26,650 --> 00:13:29,139 EAVAN MCKAY: of a family-first approach. 317 00:13:29,140 --> 00:13:31,419 EAVAN MCKAY: So this means that local authorities will 318 00:13:31,420 --> 00:13:34,689 EAVAN MCKAY: actively seek out and work with a child's 319 00:13:34,690 --> 00:13:36,879 EAVAN MCKAY: direct and extended family and friends in 320 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:39,489 EAVAN MCKAY: considering the best forms of support for the 321 00:13:39,490 --> 00:13:41,019 EAVAN MCKAY: child and their family. 322 00:13:41,020 --> 00:13:44,229 EAVAN MCKAY: And I guess my question is on those two points, 323 00:13:44,230 --> 00:13:47,769 EAVAN MCKAY: on the multi-disciplinary and multi-agency 324 00:13:47,770 --> 00:13:50,649 EAVAN MCKAY: working and on this idea of working with the 325 00:13:50,650 --> 00:13:52,491 EAVAN MCKAY: whole family and a family-first approach. 326 00:13:52,492 --> 00:13:55,479 EAVAN MCKAY: We've talked about the benefits, of which there 327 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:57,999 EAVAN MCKAY: is the so many and thinking about this future 328 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,089 EAVAN MCKAY: system, I guess what are some of the barriers 329 00:14:01,090 --> 00:14:03,709 EAVAN MCKAY: to making that happen? 330 00:14:03,710 --> 00:14:06,699 EAVAN MCKAY: I'm curious to hear your perspective from 331 00:14:06,700 --> 00:14:07,519 EAVAN MCKAY: a practitioner level. 332 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:10,019 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: What we find in practice, and certainly 333 00:14:10,020 --> 00:14:13,139 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: what I found in my practice, is 334 00:14:13,140 --> 00:14:14,999 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that the way the system currently 335 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,299 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: operates can perpetuate 336 00:14:18,300 --> 00:14:21,179 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: or can create conflicting priorities 337 00:14:21,180 --> 00:14:22,919 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: between organisations. 338 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:26,909 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So there would need to be robust 339 00:14:26,910 --> 00:14:29,909 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: working practices that ensure that 340 00:14:29,910 --> 00:14:32,069 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: all of those multi-agencies are working 341 00:14:32,070 --> 00:14:34,649 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: for a common goal without bias or 342 00:14:34,650 --> 00:14:36,689 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: prejudice and without their own priority 343 00:14:36,690 --> 00:14:38,039 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: taking over. 344 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:39,749 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: The fact that the number one priority is 345 00:14:39,750 --> 00:14:41,159 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: the children and the family at the heart 346 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:42,899 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: of this and at the centre of this. 347 00:14:42,900 --> 00:14:44,669 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: And I think you could speak to any practitioner 348 00:14:44,670 --> 00:14:46,739 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: who has experienced difficulty in driving 349 00:14:46,740 --> 00:14:50,639 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: forward plans because of bureaucracy 350 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:52,289 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: or because of conflicting priorities or 351 00:14:52,290 --> 00:14:54,809 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: boundaries that their organisation might 352 00:14:54,810 --> 00:14:57,449 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: create. So I think the principle works 353 00:14:57,450 --> 00:14:58,799 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: well, but there needs to be really 354 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,229 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: careful consideration as to how that 355 00:15:01,230 --> 00:15:03,539 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: principle is operationalised because the 356 00:15:03,540 --> 00:15:05,009 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: people that are going to be responsible 357 00:15:05,010 --> 00:15:08,189 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: for the success of children coming 358 00:15:08,190 --> 00:15:10,439 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: from safe homes that are built on love 359 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:11,440 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: and are stable. 360 00:15:12,430 --> 00:15:14,079 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: It's the professionals that will need the 361 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,179 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: support, they need to be well-trained, 362 00:15:16,180 --> 00:15:19,569 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: supported, resourced. Mutual respect 363 00:15:19,570 --> 00:15:21,609 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: between professionals and an 364 00:15:21,610 --> 00:15:23,139 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: understanding that there is that shared 365 00:15:23,140 --> 00:15:24,819 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: accountability. That's the overarching 366 00:15:24,820 --> 00:15:27,519 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: thing for me. That the accountability for 367 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:29,769 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: the success of the whole plan that is 368 00:15:29,770 --> 00:15:32,259 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: underpinning the family needs to be 369 00:15:32,260 --> 00:15:34,629 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: shared across in an equally respectful 370 00:15:34,630 --> 00:15:36,729 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: way, shared across those and throughout 371 00:15:36,730 --> 00:15:38,049 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: the multi-disciplinary. 372 00:15:38,050 --> 00:15:40,059 MATT FORDE: So if I could add to that, you've painted a 373 00:15:40,060 --> 00:15:42,489 MATT FORDE: really clear picture there Rachael of what a 374 00:15:42,490 --> 00:15:43,949 MATT FORDE: functional system should look like. 375 00:15:43,950 --> 00:15:46,649 MATT FORDE: The only thing I'd add to that is 376 00:15:47,770 --> 00:15:49,989 MATT FORDE: what would be the glue that would hold that 377 00:15:49,990 --> 00:15:54,009 MATT FORDE: together? It's not just structural or managerial 378 00:15:54,010 --> 00:15:55,599 MATT FORDE: action that's needed there. 379 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,479 MATT FORDE: It's at the heart of it you need relationships 380 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,239 MATT FORDE: with families; meaningful, supportive 381 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:04,269 MATT FORDE: relationships. People are 382 00:16:04,270 --> 00:16:06,639 MATT FORDE: human beings and what they need is a human 383 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,159 MATT FORDE: relationship with the professionals, and 384 00:16:10,210 --> 00:16:13,089 MATT FORDE: having at the core a productive caring 385 00:16:13,090 --> 00:16:16,629 MATT FORDE: relationship with the family involved 386 00:16:16,630 --> 00:16:19,929 MATT FORDE: will help you then work with, advocate 387 00:16:19,930 --> 00:16:22,779 MATT FORDE: for, stand beside that family as they navigate 388 00:16:22,780 --> 00:16:25,299 MATT FORDE: what will, no matter what, will be a complex 389 00:16:25,300 --> 00:16:28,689 MATT FORDE: system. And the relationship dimension 390 00:16:28,690 --> 00:16:31,419 MATT FORDE: of it really to me is the sort of 'X factor' 391 00:16:31,420 --> 00:16:33,429 MATT FORDE: that would make it all work. 392 00:16:33,430 --> 00:16:35,169 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: And I think the start of having a 393 00:16:35,170 --> 00:16:36,639 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: workforce that can build those 394 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:38,349 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: relationships starts at recruitment and 395 00:16:38,350 --> 00:16:40,059 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: really pulling out some of those values, 396 00:16:40,060 --> 00:16:41,499 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: behaviours and attitudes. 397 00:16:41,500 --> 00:16:43,329 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: And if we are genuinely going to work 398 00:16:43,330 --> 00:16:45,159 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: with families in a way that doesn't make 399 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:47,679 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: them feel shame, then we need to do so 400 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:49,869 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: with high levels of empathy and 401 00:16:49,870 --> 00:16:52,359 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: understanding. There are supplementary 402 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:54,219 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: courses that people can access. 403 00:16:54,220 --> 00:16:56,409 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So, throughout your social work training, 404 00:16:56,410 --> 00:16:58,089 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: teacher training, health visitor training, 405 00:16:58,090 --> 00:17:00,909 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: there will be modules that encourage the 406 00:17:00,910 --> 00:17:04,029 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: workforce to build relationships. 407 00:17:04,030 --> 00:17:06,009 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: How you do that sits with you and how you 408 00:17:06,010 --> 00:17:09,068 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: make it better sits at experience. 409 00:17:09,069 --> 00:17:10,539 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So you will go out and there will be 410 00:17:10,540 --> 00:17:13,179 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: times where you might work with a family 411 00:17:13,180 --> 00:17:15,009 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: and things haven't gone to plan. 412 00:17:15,010 --> 00:17:17,588 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: Coming back, having a strong supportive 413 00:17:17,589 --> 00:17:20,588 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: manager with a work culture that 414 00:17:20,589 --> 00:17:23,199 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: doesn't operate in a blame way. 415 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:25,419 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So we work through things together, talk 416 00:17:25,420 --> 00:17:28,839 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: things out with peers, with mentors, 417 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:30,489 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: with your supervisor. How could you do 418 00:17:30,490 --> 00:17:32,019 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: this better? But then there is also 419 00:17:32,020 --> 00:17:33,549 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: training that can be accessed, such as 420 00:17:33,550 --> 00:17:35,319 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: motivational interview training, 421 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:37,239 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: reflective practice training. 422 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:38,799 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: There's reflective supervision. 423 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:41,499 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So I think it's not a one size fits all. 424 00:17:41,500 --> 00:17:43,059 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: I think it starts with recruitment and it 425 00:17:43,060 --> 00:17:45,369 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: starts with really employing people 426 00:17:45,370 --> 00:17:48,069 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: who've got a solid value base that aligns 427 00:17:48,070 --> 00:17:51,069 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: to social work. And then working with an 428 00:17:51,070 --> 00:17:53,169 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: open mind with other professionals, 429 00:17:53,170 --> 00:17:54,969 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: observing how they interact and 430 00:17:54,970 --> 00:17:57,039 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: communicate with families, and really 431 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:58,899 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: learning back from families. 432 00:17:58,900 --> 00:18:00,279 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So if things haven't gone well, if 433 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:02,229 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: conversations haven't gone well, being 434 00:18:02,230 --> 00:18:03,743 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: open to that feedback from families: 435 00:18:03,744 --> 00:18:05,499 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: "okay, tell me what I could do better 436 00:18:05,500 --> 00:18:07,569 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: next time", and really bringing them into 437 00:18:07,570 --> 00:18:07,938 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that conversation. 438 00:18:07,939 --> 00:18:11,079 EAVAN MCKAY: Yeah, I'm really glad you both 439 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:13,809 EAVAN MCKAY: brought up that point there about relationships 440 00:18:13,810 --> 00:18:16,669 EAVAN MCKAY: and also the kind of the need to be able to 441 00:18:16,670 --> 00:18:18,459 EAVAN MCKAY: equip social workers to be able to have that 442 00:18:18,460 --> 00:18:21,099 EAVAN MCKAY: space to develop those relationships as well 443 00:18:21,100 --> 00:18:22,749 EAVAN MCKAY: and to make sure they're strong. 444 00:18:22,750 --> 00:18:25,629 EAVAN MCKAY: I guess one thing I'm thinking about is the 445 00:18:25,630 --> 00:18:28,449 EAVAN MCKAY: proposals indicate that in this future system, 446 00:18:28,450 --> 00:18:30,429 EAVAN MCKAY: when these reforms are fully rolled out, that 447 00:18:30,430 --> 00:18:33,429 EAVAN MCKAY: non-social workers, so family health 448 00:18:33,430 --> 00:18:35,837 EAVAN MCKAY: workers working alongside the family help teams 449 00:18:35,838 --> 00:18:38,769 EAVAN MCKAY: — so these multi-disciplinary teams — may 450 00:18:38,770 --> 00:18:41,199 EAVAN MCKAY: become the case holders for non-child 451 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:43,509 EAVAN MCKAY: protection cases. Are you supportive of this 452 00:18:43,510 --> 00:18:46,269 EAVAN MCKAY: idea in principle and what would need to be in 453 00:18:46,270 --> 00:18:49,869 EAVAN MCKAY: place to make it work in practice as well? 454 00:18:49,870 --> 00:18:53,049 MATT FORDE: I think what's important is what would 455 00:18:53,050 --> 00:18:55,599 MATT FORDE: the skills be of the workers who would be 456 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:59,319 MATT FORDE: supporting families? So would they have 457 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,769 MATT FORDE: the ability to be able to understand 458 00:19:02,770 --> 00:19:04,959 MATT FORDE: children's needs, especially young children's 459 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,449 MATT FORDE: needs, but children's needs in a developmentally 460 00:19:07,450 --> 00:19:08,450 MATT FORDE: informed way. 461 00:19:08,830 --> 00:19:10,899 MATT FORDE: Would they be able to understand what is 462 00:19:10,900 --> 00:19:13,120 MATT FORDE: important in parent-child relationships and 463 00:19:14,140 --> 00:19:16,659 MATT FORDE: how to assess what is going on. 464 00:19:16,660 --> 00:19:19,809 MATT FORDE: Would they have the ability to form caring 465 00:19:19,810 --> 00:19:23,919 MATT FORDE: relationships within a professional relationship 466 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:27,039 MATT FORDE: with families, to enable them to navigate the 467 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:29,679 MATT FORDE: stresses and pressures that they face. 468 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,349 MATT FORDE: The answer for social workers would be yes to 469 00:19:32,350 --> 00:19:34,959 MATT FORDE: most of that, although I do think we could do 470 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:38,439 MATT FORDE: more to equip social workers with theoretical 471 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,649 MATT FORDE: and practical expertise in child 472 00:19:41,650 --> 00:19:43,749 MATT FORDE: development, parent-child relationships, 473 00:19:43,750 --> 00:19:47,049 MATT FORDE: understanding intergenerational trauma. 474 00:19:47,050 --> 00:19:50,589 MATT FORDE: And I think the focus within children's 475 00:19:50,590 --> 00:19:53,919 MATT FORDE: social work has been dominated by 476 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,169 MATT FORDE: assessment of risk, identification and 477 00:19:56,170 --> 00:19:59,319 MATT FORDE: assessment of risk and management of risk — and 478 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:00,789 MATT FORDE: that's what dominates. 479 00:20:00,790 --> 00:20:02,199 MATT FORDE: That's a dominant paradigm. 480 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:03,999 MATT FORDE: The risk paradigm. 481 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,689 MATT FORDE: Really, having a more person-centred approach 482 00:20:07,690 --> 00:20:10,279 MATT FORDE: is something that all professionals maybe need 483 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:11,288 MATT FORDE: help with recentring their practice. 484 00:20:12,590 --> 00:20:14,179 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: I completely agree. I think it comes back 485 00:20:14,180 --> 00:20:16,249 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: to the first point we made around the 486 00:20:16,250 --> 00:20:19,279 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: principle is fine as long as it's safely 487 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:20,629 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: delivered. 488 00:20:20,630 --> 00:20:22,249 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: And that is exactly what Matt's just 489 00:20:22,250 --> 00:20:24,259 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: spoken about there, the training, the 490 00:20:24,260 --> 00:20:26,539 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: support, the reflective supervision, but 491 00:20:26,540 --> 00:20:28,129 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: also the oversight. 492 00:20:28,130 --> 00:20:30,919 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So I think I'm right in my understanding 493 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,679 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that whilst the case holders could be 494 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:35,539 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: non-social workers, the oversight would 495 00:20:35,540 --> 00:20:38,269 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: come from a lead professional or somebody 496 00:20:38,270 --> 00:20:39,709 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that was a qualified social worker that really 497 00:20:39,710 --> 00:20:42,649 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: did understand child safeguarding; so 498 00:20:42,650 --> 00:20:44,779 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: could have the safeguarding oversight 499 00:20:44,780 --> 00:20:46,909 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: whilst the specific actions within the 500 00:20:46,910 --> 00:20:49,459 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: plan were delivered and coordinated by 501 00:20:49,460 --> 00:20:50,899 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: another professional. 502 00:20:50,900 --> 00:20:53,539 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: I think the difficulty again comes back 503 00:20:53,540 --> 00:20:56,089 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: to some of the professional boundaries. 504 00:20:56,090 --> 00:20:58,759 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So, when we think about how do we form 505 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:00,919 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: relationships, they don't happen 506 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,499 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: overnight, especially for families who 507 00:21:03,500 --> 00:21:05,089 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: have got issues with trusting 508 00:21:05,090 --> 00:21:06,439 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: professionals because of previous 509 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:08,998 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: experiences, you know, parents who are 510 00:21:08,999 --> 00:21:10,789 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: maybe care-experienced themselves or have 511 00:21:10,790 --> 00:21:12,259 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: had a difficult relationship with 512 00:21:12,260 --> 00:21:13,699 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: professionals are going to find it very 513 00:21:13,700 --> 00:21:17,389 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: hard to automatically trust somebody, 514 00:21:17,390 --> 00:21:19,519 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: whatever their title may be. 515 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:21,649 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: The negative could come from giving the 516 00:21:21,650 --> 00:21:24,139 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: responsibility for the coordination of a 517 00:21:24,140 --> 00:21:27,290 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: family help plan or system 518 00:21:28,310 --> 00:21:30,373 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: to a professional within an organisation 519 00:21:30,374 --> 00:21:33,229 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that is time limited. 520 00:21:33,230 --> 00:21:35,119 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So if we can say to some of the organisations 521 00:21:35,120 --> 00:21:37,969 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that we work alongside, they run 12 or 18 522 00:21:37,970 --> 00:21:40,189 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: week programs, that may not be long 523 00:21:40,190 --> 00:21:41,749 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: enough. And then we're expecting families 524 00:21:41,750 --> 00:21:43,459 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: to form new relationships with a new 525 00:21:43,460 --> 00:21:46,189 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: co-ordinator. So there'd need to be some 526 00:21:46,190 --> 00:21:49,219 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: robustness around the lead 527 00:21:49,220 --> 00:21:51,979 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: worker remaining the lead worker and 528 00:21:51,980 --> 00:21:54,739 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: organisational time restrictions not 529 00:21:54,740 --> 00:21:56,269 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: playing into that or not becoming a 530 00:21:56,270 --> 00:21:58,669 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: priority. So if it takes six or seven or 531 00:21:58,670 --> 00:22:00,709 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: eight weeks to build that relationship, 532 00:22:00,710 --> 00:22:01,999 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that doesn't mean that you've only got 533 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:03,649 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: six weeks left because that's what we say 534 00:22:03,650 --> 00:22:05,719 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: as an organisation you're entitled to. 535 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:07,519 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: However, I also think the relationship 536 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:09,319 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: with some professionals outside of social 537 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,109 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: work can be extremely positive. 538 00:22:12,110 --> 00:22:14,389 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: I've seen family support workers do 539 00:22:14,390 --> 00:22:16,699 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: exceptional work with children and 540 00:22:16,700 --> 00:22:18,679 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: families. I've seen health visitors, 541 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:20,449 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: school link workers really make a 542 00:22:20,450 --> 00:22:23,059 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: difference. And some of that comes 543 00:22:23,060 --> 00:22:25,579 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: because they have that really positive 544 00:22:25,580 --> 00:22:28,039 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: relationship. It's a non-threatening 545 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:29,329 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: relationship. 546 00:22:29,330 --> 00:22:31,249 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: It's not a shameful relationship. 547 00:22:31,250 --> 00:22:32,749 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: It's not a relationship that brings any 548 00:22:32,750 --> 00:22:34,999 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: kind of stigma because these are 549 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,219 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: universal services that all families are 550 00:22:37,220 --> 00:22:39,499 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: entitled to that may then become 551 00:22:39,500 --> 00:22:41,839 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: targeted, but it doesn't bring with it an 552 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,569 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: element of threat or an element of shame 553 00:22:44,570 --> 00:22:46,129 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: or an element of stigma. 554 00:22:46,130 --> 00:22:47,749 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: It's a more nurturing model. 555 00:22:47,750 --> 00:22:49,609 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: The relationship underpins the plan. 556 00:22:49,610 --> 00:22:51,409 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: The success of the plan is to do with the 557 00:22:51,410 --> 00:22:53,629 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: structure, so it's the wider system and 558 00:22:53,630 --> 00:22:55,909 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: how that structure supports the delivery. 559 00:22:55,910 --> 00:22:59,509 MATT FORDE: One of the things that workers need to do to 560 00:22:59,510 --> 00:23:02,479 MATT FORDE: be able to be part of a non-stigmatising 561 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,749 MATT FORDE: conversation is to respect families' rights 562 00:23:05,750 --> 00:23:07,578 MATT FORDE: to say no to elements of things. 563 00:23:07,579 --> 00:23:10,729 MATT FORDE: You've been signposted over here and over there. 564 00:23:10,730 --> 00:23:13,819 MATT FORDE: If that's not going to work, and family says so, 565 00:23:13,820 --> 00:23:15,078 MATT FORDE: can we please listen to that. And 566 00:23:16,970 --> 00:23:19,649 MATT FORDE: similar points about picking up the one time 567 00:23:19,650 --> 00:23:21,769 MATT FORDE: that somebody says something, you have to 568 00:23:21,770 --> 00:23:23,959 MATT FORDE: respond that one time. Particularly when people 569 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,269 MATT FORDE: talk about things that they think are shameful, 570 00:23:26,270 --> 00:23:29,359 MATT FORDE: like not having enough food. Or are 571 00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:31,880 MATT FORDE: really suffering, you know, financial hardship, 572 00:23:33,140 --> 00:23:35,438 MATT FORDE: those sorts of issues that if they're said once, 573 00:23:35,439 --> 00:23:37,249 MATT FORDE: you have to pick them up. 574 00:23:37,250 --> 00:23:39,979 MATT FORDE: And that's really not about the grade of worker 575 00:23:39,980 --> 00:23:43,039 MATT FORDE: is it, it's about how we equip people 576 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,099 MATT FORDE: with an orientation to help and provide 577 00:23:46,100 --> 00:23:48,799 MATT FORDE: the support to them to be the helpers. 578 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,769 MATT FORDE: And also that we continue to learn and lesson 579 00:23:51,770 --> 00:23:53,689 MATT FORDE: from lived experience. 580 00:23:53,690 --> 00:23:56,179 EAVAN MCKAY: Starting with the idea of "what is the 581 00:23:56,180 --> 00:23:59,479 EAVAN MCKAY: experience of the family" leads us also 582 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,819 EAVAN MCKAY: to asking that question of "what's the 583 00:24:01,820 --> 00:24:03,829 EAVAN MCKAY: motivation of this policy?" And it kind of 584 00:24:03,830 --> 00:24:05,520 EAVAN MCKAY: links to your earlier point, Rachel, about 585 00:24:08,270 --> 00:24:10,189 EAVAN MCKAY: who decides who will lead the cases, for 586 00:24:10,190 --> 00:24:12,529 EAVAN MCKAY: example, when it is a family help worker versus 587 00:24:12,530 --> 00:24:14,129 EAVAN MCKAY: when it is a social worker? 588 00:24:14,130 --> 00:24:17,119 EAVAN MCKAY: I think that feels really crucial because 589 00:24:17,120 --> 00:24:19,609 EAVAN MCKAY: it has to be, you know, whilst there can be so 590 00:24:19,610 --> 00:24:22,699 EAVAN MCKAY: many benefits to the possibility of having a 591 00:24:22,700 --> 00:24:25,789 EAVAN MCKAY: wider field of professionals — or 592 00:24:25,790 --> 00:24:28,579 EAVAN MCKAY: non-professionals as well, you talk about that 593 00:24:28,580 --> 00:24:30,319 EAVAN MCKAY: Matt as well as it not being so 594 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,569 EAVAN MCKAY: professionalised but a wider group of people 595 00:24:32,570 --> 00:24:34,561 EAVAN MCKAY: who can work with families — it 596 00:24:35,870 --> 00:24:37,879 EAVAN MCKAY: has to be about if it's right for the family 597 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,519 EAVAN MCKAY: and it's right for the child, rather than it 598 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:42,109 EAVAN MCKAY: being motivated by anything else. 599 00:24:42,110 --> 00:24:45,139 EAVAN MCKAY: And it feels like, you know, what we can't have 600 00:24:45,140 --> 00:24:47,869 EAVAN MCKAY: is the idea that family health workers could be 601 00:24:47,870 --> 00:24:50,059 EAVAN MCKAY: a silver bullet to saving money because that is 602 00:24:50,060 --> 00:24:51,739 EAVAN MCKAY: not in the interests of children and families 603 00:24:51,740 --> 00:24:55,159 EAVAN MCKAY: at all. So the government plans to introduce 604 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,699 EAVAN MCKAY: a new lead child protection 605 00:24:58,700 --> 00:25:01,339 EAVAN MCKAY: practitioner role. So this practitioner will 606 00:25:01,340 --> 00:25:03,589 EAVAN MCKAY: have a minimum of five years social work 607 00:25:03,590 --> 00:25:05,749 EAVAN MCKAY: experience and will complete advanced 608 00:25:05,750 --> 00:25:07,609 EAVAN MCKAY: specialist child protection training. 609 00:25:07,610 --> 00:25:10,579 EAVAN MCKAY: Our understanding is this new role will be 610 00:25:10,580 --> 00:25:12,419 EAVAN MCKAY: across the system. It won't just be for family 611 00:25:12,420 --> 00:25:14,206 EAVAN MCKAY: help teams. My question is around... 612 00:25:14,207 --> 00:25:16,799 EAVAN MCKAY: What are your thoughts on this new role? 613 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:18,839 EAVAN MCKAY: Thinking about the benefits to the system it 614 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,049 EAVAN MCKAY: could have, but also any risks you might 615 00:25:21,050 --> 00:25:23,909 EAVAN MCKAY: foresee in terms of the implementation. 616 00:25:23,910 --> 00:25:26,609 MATT FORDE: To me, the crucial issue is what are the 617 00:25:26,610 --> 00:25:29,789 MATT FORDE: advanced skills and knowledge that this person 618 00:25:29,790 --> 00:25:32,035 MATT FORDE: would have. The way that we've structured child 619 00:25:32,036 --> 00:25:35,129 MATT FORDE: protection as a social work-led activity 620 00:25:35,130 --> 00:25:38,549 MATT FORDE: has locked into a professional framework 621 00:25:38,550 --> 00:25:41,339 MATT FORDE: that doesn't really value expertise. 622 00:25:41,340 --> 00:25:43,409 MATT FORDE: That, you know, if you progress as a social 623 00:25:43,410 --> 00:25:45,869 MATT FORDE: worker, you become a manager and stop being 624 00:25:45,870 --> 00:25:48,929 MATT FORDE: involved with families. Whereas in health 625 00:25:48,930 --> 00:25:51,749 MATT FORDE: professions and mental health, for example, 626 00:25:51,750 --> 00:25:53,369 MATT FORDE: psychologists and psychiatrists and 627 00:25:53,370 --> 00:25:57,299 MATT FORDE: psychotherapists progress to become consultants 628 00:25:57,300 --> 00:25:58,799 MATT FORDE: who are at a higher level of skill and 629 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,439 MATT FORDE: expertise, but continue to be in practice with 630 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,559 MATT FORDE: families. I think that is the 631 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,119 MATT FORDE: kind of structure we should have professionally 632 00:26:07,120 --> 00:26:09,066 MATT FORDE: around the social work professionals or child 633 00:26:10,290 --> 00:26:12,509 MATT FORDE: protection professionals who are doing the most 634 00:26:12,510 --> 00:26:13,952 MATT FORDE: complex and challenging work. 635 00:26:13,953 --> 00:26:16,949 MATT FORDE: They should have... They should have a level 636 00:26:16,950 --> 00:26:19,439 MATT FORDE: of skill and expertise that's commensurate with 637 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,229 MATT FORDE: the complexity of children's needs and families' 638 00:26:22,230 --> 00:26:23,230 MATT FORDE: lives. 639 00:26:23,940 --> 00:26:27,329 MATT FORDE: But it's what that is, because my concern 640 00:26:27,330 --> 00:26:29,279 MATT FORDE: would be that it would be a kind of 641 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,399 MATT FORDE: amplification of the risk assessment 642 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,860 MATT FORDE: mode that our system is locked in. 643 00:26:36,030 --> 00:26:39,089 MATT FORDE: And it would really need to be supplemented by 644 00:26:39,090 --> 00:26:41,489 MATT FORDE: skills which understand how it is you help 645 00:26:41,490 --> 00:26:44,609 MATT FORDE: families. I mean, to understand how we negotiate 646 00:26:44,610 --> 00:26:47,369 MATT FORDE: the benefits system; how you improve families' 647 00:26:47,370 --> 00:26:49,829 MATT FORDE: ability to care for themselves and bring in 648 00:26:49,830 --> 00:26:52,949 MATT FORDE: adequate income; how you understand mental 649 00:26:52,950 --> 00:26:56,489 MATT FORDE: health, and what it is that drives 650 00:26:56,490 --> 00:26:59,129 MATT FORDE: the stresses that undermine mental health; to 651 00:26:59,130 --> 00:27:01,469 MATT FORDE: understand intergenerational trauma; 652 00:27:01,470 --> 00:27:04,239 MATT FORDE: parent-child relationships; infant trauma, to 653 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,229 MATT FORDE: understand what it is that pressures on whole 654 00:27:07,230 --> 00:27:09,299 MATT FORDE: families and whole communities. 655 00:27:09,300 --> 00:27:12,040 MATT FORDE: Those are dimensions that are kind of missing 656 00:27:12,041 --> 00:27:14,969 MATT FORDE: from, you know, the fairly arid assessments of 657 00:27:14,970 --> 00:27:18,509 MATT FORDE: risk that result in — I'm oversimplifying — 658 00:27:18,510 --> 00:27:21,509 MATT FORDE: but result in ultimatums 659 00:27:21,510 --> 00:27:23,619 MATT FORDE: to families to change things by a certain time 660 00:27:23,620 --> 00:27:25,739 MATT FORDE: or there will be action, instead of getting 661 00:27:25,740 --> 00:27:26,849 MATT FORDE: alongside. 662 00:27:26,850 --> 00:27:29,279 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So, in terms of that lead professional 663 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,489 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: role, I think having a social 664 00:27:32,490 --> 00:27:34,499 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: worker and somebody with that level of 665 00:27:34,500 --> 00:27:37,559 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: safeguarding expertise is crucial 666 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,079 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: in ensuring that all of the — whoever is 667 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:41,819 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that's leading the plan — and all of the 668 00:27:41,820 --> 00:27:43,829 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: multi agencies that are part of that 669 00:27:43,830 --> 00:27:46,019 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: plan, there does need to be somebody that 670 00:27:46,020 --> 00:27:47,669 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: can always bring this back to "how safe 671 00:27:47,670 --> 00:27:50,549 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: is this child?" and can knowingly, with 672 00:27:50,550 --> 00:27:52,289 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: expertise, be able to answer that 673 00:27:52,290 --> 00:27:55,019 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: question, support the professionals to 674 00:27:55,020 --> 00:27:56,699 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: demonstrate that curiosity when 675 00:27:56,700 --> 00:27:59,459 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: necessary, really challenge professionals 676 00:27:59,460 --> 00:28:01,379 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: to keep thinking about safety as well as 677 00:28:01,380 --> 00:28:03,059 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: their own expertise. 678 00:28:03,060 --> 00:28:06,419 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So that role is crucial in that space. 679 00:28:06,420 --> 00:28:08,369 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: And I think whether that's a lead professional 680 00:28:08,370 --> 00:28:12,239 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: or another title, having 681 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,149 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: space or the opportunity to grow and 682 00:28:15,150 --> 00:28:17,519 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: develop professionally for a social 683 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:19,109 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: worker is really important. 684 00:28:19,110 --> 00:28:21,509 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: And it might support some of the issues 685 00:28:21,510 --> 00:28:24,539 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: around retaining good staff because you 686 00:28:24,540 --> 00:28:27,239 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: can see a progression opportunity. 687 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,239 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So I do think in terms of continuing 688 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,059 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: to make sure that the child remains safe 689 00:28:33,060 --> 00:28:34,649 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: in the family and that the plan is 690 00:28:34,650 --> 00:28:36,359 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: effective, in terms of meeting the needs, 691 00:28:36,360 --> 00:28:38,669 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: but ultimately keeping the child safe; to 692 00:28:38,670 --> 00:28:40,019 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: have that professional, whether it's a 693 00:28:40,020 --> 00:28:41,609 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: lead social worker or a social worker, 694 00:28:41,610 --> 00:28:44,129 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: having oversight of a plan is crucial. 695 00:28:44,130 --> 00:28:45,509 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: That's how we keep children safe. 696 00:28:45,510 --> 00:28:47,300 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: That's why social workers are here; 697 00:28:47,301 --> 00:28:49,349 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: because we want to keep children safe. 698 00:28:49,350 --> 00:28:50,729 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: And when they're not safe, we want to 699 00:28:50,730 --> 00:28:52,919 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: take action to bring them back to a place 700 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:53,920 RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: of safety. 701 00:28:57,910 --> 00:29:01,569 INTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning podcast. 702 00:29:01,570 --> 00:29:04,479 INTRO: At the time of recording this episode, content was 703 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,119 INTRO: up-to-date but the world of safeguarding and child 704 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:08,120 INTRO: protection is ever-changing. 705 00:29:09,220 --> 00:29:11,289 INTRO: So, if you're looking for the most current 706 00:29:11,290 --> 00:29:13,989 INTRO: safeguarding and child protection, training, 707 00:29:13,990 --> 00:29:16,989 INTRO: information or resources, please visit 708 00:29:16,990 --> 00:29:19,088 INTRO: our website for professionals at 709 00:29:19,089 --> 00:29:20,089 INTRO: nspcc.org.uk/learning.