INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where we
INTRO: share learning and expertise in child protection from
INTRO: inside and outside of the organisation.
INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and
INTRO: share good practice on how we can all work together
INTRO: to keep babies, children and young people safe.
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Welcome to the NSPCC Learning
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Podcast. This is the second half
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): of a two part podcast series,
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): recorded in July 2023, looking
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): at the UK government's strategy
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): to reform children's social care
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): in England, 'Stable Homes, Built
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): on Love'.
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): In the previous episode, we
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): interviewed Josh MacAlister, who
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): chaired the Independent Review
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): of Children's Social Care in England.
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): In his foreword to the review's
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): final report, Josh described the
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): need for a care system that will
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): get alongside and strengthen the
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): families and communities that
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): children grow up in.
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): In this episode, a panel of
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): experts from within the NSPCC
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): are going to discuss how the proposals
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): laid out in 'Stable Homes, Built
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): on Love' can achieve this goal.
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): The discussion will focus on the
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): proposed reforms to family
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): support and early help services,
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): what these might look like in practice,
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): and how they might meet the needs
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): of children and families.
EAVAN MCKAY: Hi, I'm Eavan Mckay.
EAVAN MCKAY: I'm Senior Policy and Public Affairs Officer
EAVAN MCKAY: here at the NSPCC and my brief focuses on
EAVAN MCKAY: children's social care and child protection.
MATT FORDE: Hi, I'm Matt Forde, I'm a Partnerships and
MATT FORDE: Development Director here at the NSPCC,
MATT FORDE: and I'm responsible for the services that we run
MATT FORDE: in partnership with others, with a big focus on
MATT FORDE: the early years and on the prevention of child
MATT FORDE: sexual abuse.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: Hi, my name's Rachel Holdcroft, I'm the
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: Strategic Service Manager at Together for
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: Childhood in Stoke on Trent.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So I oversee the direct casework and
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: the development work here in Stoke, all
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: of which focuses on prevention of child
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: sexual abuse.
EAVAN MCKAY: 'Stable Homes, Built on Love' talks about
EAVAN MCKAY: providing families with the right support at
EAVAN MCKAY: the right time and proposes the rollout of
EAVAN MCKAY: new, multi-disciplinary family help teams to
EAVAN MCKAY: provide earlier support to families so they
EAVAN MCKAY: don't reach crisis point.
EAVAN MCKAY: This will involve bringing together targeted
EAVAN MCKAY: early help and child in need into a single
EAVAN MCKAY: family help service.
EAVAN MCKAY: So my question for you both to start is
EAVAN MCKAY: what are your thoughts on these proposals in
EAVAN MCKAY: principle and what do you think is needed to
EAVAN MCKAY: help them work in practice?
MATT FORDE: The principle that what we want to do
MATT FORDE: is get alongside families at a time that
MATT FORDE: helps them is a good one.
MATT FORDE: I think there are some missing parts of the
MATT FORDE: story.
MATT FORDE: The care review, right from the start, the case
MATT FORDE: for change for the care review, said we need to
MATT FORDE: do more to help families and
MATT FORDE: identify the context of poverty and inequality.
MATT FORDE: The review report itself said
MATT FORDE: that we have to address that wider
MATT FORDE: context that drives the demand for children's
MATT FORDE: social care and the stress on families
MATT FORDE: and the impact that has on outcomes for
MATT FORDE: children. And I think the other dimension
MATT FORDE: that isn't present there or isn't visible, is
MATT FORDE: an understanding of the particular importance of
MATT FORDE: early childhood and of getting it
MATT FORDE: so that families with very young children, from
MATT FORDE: pregnancy onwards, get the support that they
MATT FORDE: need to be able to give the children a start in
MATT FORDE: life that makes all the difference.
MATT FORDE: And when you think about children's social care,
MATT FORDE: what heaves into view in your mind is a teenager
MATT FORDE: in a children's home or maybe in a foster care
MATT FORDE: placement. But actually the
MATT FORDE: majority of children in the children's social
MATT FORDE: care system had their first encounters with
MATT FORDE: children's social care before they were five,
MATT FORDE: and a very sizeable chunk of the children
MATT FORDE: actually, in our social care system are under
MATT FORDE: five.
MATT FORDE: And it's a testament to the failure to support
MATT FORDE: those children that we have children spending a
MATT FORDE: whole childhood in a care system rather than in
MATT FORDE: families.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: I agree with and echo, really, what Matt
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: has just said there, I think the other
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: thing for me just to add is
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that as a sentence or a principle or as a
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: declaration, I think most people in this
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: profession would support the idea that we
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: bring together early help services for
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: families and offer that support to create
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: stable homes at the earliest point
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: possible.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: One of the concerns that I would have
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: is that in practice we would need
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: skilled, well-resourced practitioners
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: who are able to deliver that type of
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: service. And the other concern is around
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: what early health actually is.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So across the nation there's different
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: thresholds that are applied when
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: determining whether or not a family would
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: qualify for an early help service.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: And, I kind of say that in inverted
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: commas. That differentiation and
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: thresholds can create national
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: inequality.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: And I think what we need to- what needs
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: to underpin this principle is universal,
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: positive protective messaging.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So tackling a problem before it's
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: happened, so that we're not waiting until
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: families are in crisis or in need of
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: help. We're already giving those positive
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: messages, and that's exactly what Matt's
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: just said. So from pregnancy, right
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: through the early years; informative,
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: practical, accessible, positive messaging
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: and help to be shared, you know, is
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: shared with families at that point.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: That way, there's trust in services
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that's built so that if they need
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: additional targeted services, that trust,
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that relationship and that mutual respect
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: is already embedded in practice.
EAVAN MCKAY: Yeah, I completely agree.
EAVAN MCKAY: And I think that point about what do we mean by
EAVAN MCKAY: early help as well is a really important one.
EAVAN MCKAY: So Matt, you've already talked about babies,
EAVAN MCKAY: infants and the needs of babies and infants,
EAVAN MCKAY: and that was definitely a question I wanted to
EAVAN MCKAY: pick up. The specific needs of babies and
EAVAN MCKAY: infants, as you say, is definitely not a strong
EAVAN MCKAY: focus in 'Stable Homes, Built on Love'.
EAVAN MCKAY: We know babies and infants are the group that
EAVAN MCKAY: are most at risk of abuse and neglect and
EAVAN MCKAY: potentially less child with a social worker.
EAVAN MCKAY: They're also the group who are least seen by
EAVAN MCKAY: agencies and services.
EAVAN MCKAY: What would a future children's social care
EAVAN MCKAY: system that truly meets the needs of babies and
EAVAN MCKAY: infants, what would it look like?
MATT FORDE: Other ways of describing what it what it would
MATT FORDE: look like would be about how it's experienced by
MATT FORDE: families. Hearing the voice of children who are
MATT FORDE: under five; it's also about understanding what
MATT FORDE: what their parents need to be the parents that
MATT FORDE: they want to be, and to understand their
MATT FORDE: experiences in the world and to understand how
MATT FORDE: they may well be experiencing incredible stress.
MATT FORDE: Locked in poverty, families involved in the
MATT FORDE: child protection system. They're in double
MATT FORDE: jeopardy because they have all of
MATT FORDE: the pressures and stresses that come from
MATT FORDE: inadequate income, insecure housing, living in
MATT FORDE: hard-pressed neighbourhoods, and
MATT FORDE: then family crisis that's led them into
MATT FORDE: interaction with children's social care and
MATT FORDE: that experience of working with children's
MATT FORDE: social care can often be further
MATT FORDE: stigmatising and stress-inducing for families.
MATT FORDE: And what the system would look like would be a
MATT FORDE: system that had services that got alongside
MATT FORDE: families, that stood with families, that said,
MATT FORDE: "how can we help?" That said, "where are your
MATT FORDE: strengths and how can we build on them?
MATT FORDE: How can we actually give you practical and
MATT FORDE: material help to alleviate some of this
MATT FORDE: pressure?" And at the same time, let's
MATT FORDE: try and understand where relationships need to
MATT FORDE: be helped and where things might have gone wrong
MATT FORDE: and we can get them back on track.
MATT FORDE: It's not an either or, it's both.
MATT FORDE: And the system would be something that
MATT FORDE: was experienced by families as something that
MATT FORDE: was genuinely there to help.
MATT FORDE: So you wouldn't have to navigate, you know,
MATT FORDE: hostile systems of appointments set in distant
MATT FORDE: places at times it's difficult to get to that
MATT FORDE: when you got there there would be food available
MATT FORDE: so that your child wouldn't be hungry during the
MATT FORDE: appointment and you wouldn't have to ask for it.
MATT FORDE: It would be an expectation that
MATT FORDE: your story wouldn't have to be told over and
MATT FORDE: over again, that you wouldn't have to go back to
MATT FORDE: the beginning ever, that you would...
MATT FORDE: That you would experience workers being alert
MATT FORDE: and oriented to try and understand what
MATT FORDE: your story is, and they would have time
MATT FORDE: to listen to you. So these are all
MATT FORDE: characteristics of a system that would be
MATT FORDE: getting alongside people.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: The question, Eavan, that you posed was
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: around what would a social care system
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: look like? And I think we need to really
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: consider what a social care system is
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: before we can purposefully or
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: meaningfully answer that question.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So a social care system is beyond a
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: social worker.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: The social care system for me needs to be
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: all of that child, baby, infant, parent
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: social network, including communities as
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: well as just professionals.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: And if we're really going to affect
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: change here, I think it's crucial to
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: bring everybody on that journey with us.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: In Stoke and Together for Childhood we
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: work very much in a community way and we
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: have seen and we have evidenced just how
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: powerful and influential communities are.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: They're part of that child's networks so
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: they're key in providing that advocacy.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: It doesn't all need to fall... The
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: responsibility doesn't fall just to the
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: social worker. And I think if we're going
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: to move with the times, if you like, we
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: need to think beyond traditional social
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: work models and when we consider
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: advocacy, we consider it as a big
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: picture. So those people in the community
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: will see a different version of the
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: parent and a different version of, once
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: the child gets older, than perhaps we do
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: as professionals. And it's only when we
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: tie all of that together that we really
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: get the full picture. And if we need to
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: intervene, offer early help or more
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: than early help support, we can do that
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: most effectively and most safely
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: when we all are together and we're all
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: working towards a common goal which,
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: ultimately, is keeping children safe.
MATT FORDE: And, you know, I think it's absolutely critical
MATT FORDE: for babies and infants that they have advocacy,
MATT FORDE: that their voice is heard.
MATT FORDE: And for their voice to be heard, there's no
MATT FORDE: shortcut. You need highly skilled
MATT FORDE: people who are able to understand
MATT FORDE: a baby or a toddler's experience
MATT FORDE: through the way that they communicate and
MATT FORDE: through understanding the quality of
MATT FORDE: their relationships and to understand
MATT FORDE: what has happened in their life; and to be able
MATT FORDE: to communicate for others who are
MATT FORDE: making decisions about these children or who are
MATT FORDE: responsible for care for these children; to be
MATT FORDE: able to communicate those
MATT FORDE: children's needs. That is skilled
MATT FORDE: work. In the NSPCC, we have teams of
MATT FORDE: multi-disciplinary professionals
MATT FORDE: who are able to do that kind of work and we've
MATT FORDE: demonstrated that that can be done.
MATT FORDE: And, you know, a practice example for us is in
MATT FORDE: our infant and family teams where we work with
MATT FORDE: children aged zero to five who have been removed
MATT FORDE: from their parents' care and who live with
MATT FORDE: foster carers.
MATT FORDE: We work with the foster parent and the child to
MATT FORDE: understand how that relationship
MATT FORDE: is going and to understand whether
MATT FORDE: or not it's good enough for that child's needs,
MATT FORDE: given that nearly always they've experienced
MATT FORDE: trauma, abuse, neglect.
MATT FORDE: And in that context of infant trauma,
MATT FORDE: we find that we
MATT FORDE: can we can express that child's
MATT FORDE: needs in their voice
MATT FORDE: in a way that provides a record for them when
MATT FORDE: they get older through a method we call narrative
MATT FORDE: books. So we produce these books which explain:
MATT FORDE: "Hi, I am..." — the name
MATT FORDE: of the child — "I'm living with"
MATT FORDE: — such and such, foster parents — "here's what's
MATT FORDE: happened to me and decisions that have been made
MATT FORDE: about me. Here's how I am." You know,
MATT FORDE: it could be that "I'm someone that doesn't...
MATT FORDE: When I first went to the foster parents, I
MATT FORDE: didn't seek comfort because in my life before,
MATT FORDE: I'd learned not, but know with my foster parents
MATT FORDE: that's getting better." So it's that kind of
MATT FORDE: articulating through an
MATT FORDE: understanding of what children need.
MATT FORDE: A narrative that is telling their story.
MATT FORDE: If there is to be a system of advocacy for
MATT FORDE: children in care, it really is crucial that
MATT FORDE: infants get that kind of access
MATT FORDE: to their voice being heard.
EAVAN MCKAY: We talked a bit about multi-agency working
EAVAN MCKAY: to support children and families. The principle
EAVAN MCKAY: of multi-agency working and the desire to
EAVAN MCKAY: have these multi-disciplinary teams is in the
EAVAN MCKAY: strategy, and that's something that the Government
EAVAN MCKAY: has said that they're committed to.
EAVAN MCKAY: And as well, linking to what you were saying
EAVAN MCKAY: about working with the whole family, the
EAVAN MCKAY: government talk about this idea in the strategy
EAVAN MCKAY: of a family-first approach.
EAVAN MCKAY: So this means that local authorities will
EAVAN MCKAY: actively seek out and work with a child's
EAVAN MCKAY: direct and extended family and friends in
EAVAN MCKAY: considering the best forms of support for the
EAVAN MCKAY: child and their family.
EAVAN MCKAY: And I guess my question is on those two points,
EAVAN MCKAY: on the multi-disciplinary and multi-agency
EAVAN MCKAY: working and on this idea of working with the
EAVAN MCKAY: whole family and a family-first approach.
EAVAN MCKAY: We've talked about the benefits, of which there
EAVAN MCKAY: is the so many and thinking about this future
EAVAN MCKAY: system, I guess what are some of the barriers
EAVAN MCKAY: to making that happen?
EAVAN MCKAY: I'm curious to hear your perspective from
EAVAN MCKAY: a practitioner level.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: What we find in practice, and certainly
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: what I found in my practice, is
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that the way the system currently
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: operates can perpetuate
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: or can create conflicting priorities
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: between organisations.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So there would need to be robust
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: working practices that ensure that
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: all of those multi-agencies are working
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: for a common goal without bias or
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: prejudice and without their own priority
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: taking over.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: The fact that the number one priority is
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: the children and the family at the heart
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: of this and at the centre of this.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: And I think you could speak to any practitioner
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: who has experienced difficulty in driving
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: forward plans because of bureaucracy
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: or because of conflicting priorities or
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: boundaries that their organisation might
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: create. So I think the principle works
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: well, but there needs to be really
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: careful consideration as to how that
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: principle is operationalised because the
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: people that are going to be responsible
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: for the success of children coming
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: from safe homes that are built on love
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: and are stable.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: It's the professionals that will need the
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: support, they need to be well-trained,
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: supported, resourced. Mutual respect
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: between professionals and an
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: understanding that there is that shared
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: accountability. That's the overarching
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: thing for me. That the accountability for
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: the success of the whole plan that is
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: underpinning the family needs to be
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: shared across in an equally respectful
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: way, shared across those and throughout
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: the multi-disciplinary.
MATT FORDE: So if I could add to that, you've painted a
MATT FORDE: really clear picture there Rachael of what a
MATT FORDE: functional system should look like.
MATT FORDE: The only thing I'd add to that is
MATT FORDE: what would be the glue that would hold that
MATT FORDE: together? It's not just structural or managerial
MATT FORDE: action that's needed there.
MATT FORDE: It's at the heart of it you need relationships
MATT FORDE: with families; meaningful, supportive
MATT FORDE: relationships. People are
MATT FORDE: human beings and what they need is a human
MATT FORDE: relationship with the professionals, and
MATT FORDE: having at the core a productive caring
MATT FORDE: relationship with the family involved
MATT FORDE: will help you then work with, advocate
MATT FORDE: for, stand beside that family as they navigate
MATT FORDE: what will, no matter what, will be a complex
MATT FORDE: system. And the relationship dimension
MATT FORDE: of it really to me is the sort of 'X factor'
MATT FORDE: that would make it all work.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: And I think the start of having a
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: workforce that can build those
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: relationships starts at recruitment and
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: really pulling out some of those values,
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: behaviours and attitudes.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: And if we are genuinely going to work
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: with families in a way that doesn't make
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: them feel shame, then we need to do so
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: with high levels of empathy and
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: understanding. There are supplementary
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: courses that people can access.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So, throughout your social work training,
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: teacher training, health visitor training,
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: there will be modules that encourage the
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: workforce to build relationships.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: How you do that sits with you and how you
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: make it better sits at experience.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So you will go out and there will be
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: times where you might work with a family
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: and things haven't gone to plan.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: Coming back, having a strong supportive
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: manager with a work culture that
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: doesn't operate in a blame way.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So we work through things together, talk
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: things out with peers, with mentors,
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: with your supervisor. How could you do
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: this better? But then there is also
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: training that can be accessed, such as
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: motivational interview training,
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: reflective practice training.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: There's reflective supervision.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So I think it's not a one size fits all.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: I think it starts with recruitment and it
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: starts with really employing people
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: who've got a solid value base that aligns
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: to social work. And then working with an
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: open mind with other professionals,
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: observing how they interact and
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: communicate with families, and really
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: learning back from families.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So if things haven't gone well, if
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: conversations haven't gone well, being
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: open to that feedback from families:
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: "okay, tell me what I could do better
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: next time", and really bringing them into
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that conversation.
EAVAN MCKAY: Yeah, I'm really glad you both
EAVAN MCKAY: brought up that point there about relationships
EAVAN MCKAY: and also the kind of the need to be able to
EAVAN MCKAY: equip social workers to be able to have that
EAVAN MCKAY: space to develop those relationships as well
EAVAN MCKAY: and to make sure they're strong.
EAVAN MCKAY: I guess one thing I'm thinking about is the
EAVAN MCKAY: proposals indicate that in this future system,
EAVAN MCKAY: when these reforms are fully rolled out, that
EAVAN MCKAY: non-social workers, so family health
EAVAN MCKAY: workers working alongside the family help teams
EAVAN MCKAY: — so these multi-disciplinary teams — may
EAVAN MCKAY: become the case holders for non-child
EAVAN MCKAY: protection cases. Are you supportive of this
EAVAN MCKAY: idea in principle and what would need to be in
EAVAN MCKAY: place to make it work in practice as well?
MATT FORDE: I think what's important is what would
MATT FORDE: the skills be of the workers who would be
MATT FORDE: supporting families? So would they have
MATT FORDE: the ability to be able to understand
MATT FORDE: children's needs, especially young children's
MATT FORDE: needs, but children's needs in a developmentally
MATT FORDE: informed way.
MATT FORDE: Would they be able to understand what is
MATT FORDE: important in parent-child relationships and
MATT FORDE: how to assess what is going on.
MATT FORDE: Would they have the ability to form caring
MATT FORDE: relationships within a professional relationship
MATT FORDE: with families, to enable them to navigate the
MATT FORDE: stresses and pressures that they face.
MATT FORDE: The answer for social workers would be yes to
MATT FORDE: most of that, although I do think we could do
MATT FORDE: more to equip social workers with theoretical
MATT FORDE: and practical expertise in child
MATT FORDE: development, parent-child relationships,
MATT FORDE: understanding intergenerational trauma.
MATT FORDE: And I think the focus within children's
MATT FORDE: social work has been dominated by
MATT FORDE: assessment of risk, identification and
MATT FORDE: assessment of risk and management of risk — and
MATT FORDE: that's what dominates.
MATT FORDE: That's a dominant paradigm.
MATT FORDE: The risk paradigm.
MATT FORDE: Really, having a more person-centred approach
MATT FORDE: is something that all professionals maybe need
MATT FORDE: help with recentring their practice.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: I completely agree. I think it comes back
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: to the first point we made around the
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: principle is fine as long as it's safely
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: delivered.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: And that is exactly what Matt's just
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: spoken about there, the training, the
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: support, the reflective supervision, but
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: also the oversight.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So I think I'm right in my understanding
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that whilst the case holders could be
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: non-social workers, the oversight would
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: come from a lead professional or somebody
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that was a qualified social worker that really
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: did understand child safeguarding; so
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: could have the safeguarding oversight
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: whilst the specific actions within the
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: plan were delivered and coordinated by
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: another professional.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: I think the difficulty again comes back
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: to some of the professional boundaries.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So, when we think about how do we form
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: relationships, they don't happen
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: overnight, especially for families who
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: have got issues with trusting
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: professionals because of previous
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: experiences, you know, parents who are
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: maybe care-experienced themselves or have
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: had a difficult relationship with
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: professionals are going to find it very
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: hard to automatically trust somebody,
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: whatever their title may be.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: The negative could come from giving the
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: responsibility for the coordination of a
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: family help plan or system
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: to a professional within an organisation
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that is time limited.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So if we can say to some of the organisations
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that we work alongside, they run 12 or 18
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: week programs, that may not be long
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: enough. And then we're expecting families
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: to form new relationships with a new
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: co-ordinator. So there'd need to be some
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: robustness around the lead
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: worker remaining the lead worker and
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: organisational time restrictions not
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: playing into that or not becoming a
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: priority. So if it takes six or seven or
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: eight weeks to build that relationship,
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that doesn't mean that you've only got
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: six weeks left because that's what we say
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: as an organisation you're entitled to.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: However, I also think the relationship
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: with some professionals outside of social
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: work can be extremely positive.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: I've seen family support workers do
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: exceptional work with children and
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: families. I've seen health visitors,
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: school link workers really make a
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: difference. And some of that comes
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: because they have that really positive
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: relationship. It's a non-threatening
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: relationship.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: It's not a shameful relationship.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: It's not a relationship that brings any
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: kind of stigma because these are
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: universal services that all families are
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: entitled to that may then become
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: targeted, but it doesn't bring with it an
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: element of threat or an element of shame
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: or an element of stigma.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: It's a more nurturing model.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: The relationship underpins the plan.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: The success of the plan is to do with the
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: structure, so it's the wider system and
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: how that structure supports the delivery.
MATT FORDE: One of the things that workers need to do to
MATT FORDE: be able to be part of a non-stigmatising
MATT FORDE: conversation is to respect families' rights
MATT FORDE: to say no to elements of things.
MATT FORDE: You've been signposted over here and over there.
MATT FORDE: If that's not going to work, and family says so,
MATT FORDE: can we please listen to that. And
MATT FORDE: similar points about picking up the one time
MATT FORDE: that somebody says something, you have to
MATT FORDE: respond that one time. Particularly when people
MATT FORDE: talk about things that they think are shameful,
MATT FORDE: like not having enough food. Or are
MATT FORDE: really suffering, you know, financial hardship,
MATT FORDE: those sorts of issues that if they're said once,
MATT FORDE: you have to pick them up.
MATT FORDE: And that's really not about the grade of worker
MATT FORDE: is it, it's about how we equip people
MATT FORDE: with an orientation to help and provide
MATT FORDE: the support to them to be the helpers.
MATT FORDE: And also that we continue to learn and lesson
MATT FORDE: from lived experience.
EAVAN MCKAY: Starting with the idea of "what is the
EAVAN MCKAY: experience of the family" leads us also
EAVAN MCKAY: to asking that question of "what's the
EAVAN MCKAY: motivation of this policy?" And it kind of
EAVAN MCKAY: links to your earlier point, Rachel, about
EAVAN MCKAY: who decides who will lead the cases, for
EAVAN MCKAY: example, when it is a family help worker versus
EAVAN MCKAY: when it is a social worker?
EAVAN MCKAY: I think that feels really crucial because
EAVAN MCKAY: it has to be, you know, whilst there can be so
EAVAN MCKAY: many benefits to the possibility of having a
EAVAN MCKAY: wider field of professionals — or
EAVAN MCKAY: non-professionals as well, you talk about that
EAVAN MCKAY: Matt as well as it not being so
EAVAN MCKAY: professionalised but a wider group of people
EAVAN MCKAY: who can work with families — it
EAVAN MCKAY: has to be about if it's right for the family
EAVAN MCKAY: and it's right for the child, rather than it
EAVAN MCKAY: being motivated by anything else.
EAVAN MCKAY: And it feels like, you know, what we can't have
EAVAN MCKAY: is the idea that family health workers could be
EAVAN MCKAY: a silver bullet to saving money because that is
EAVAN MCKAY: not in the interests of children and families
EAVAN MCKAY: at all. So the government plans to introduce
EAVAN MCKAY: a new lead child protection
EAVAN MCKAY: practitioner role. So this practitioner will
EAVAN MCKAY: have a minimum of five years social work
EAVAN MCKAY: experience and will complete advanced
EAVAN MCKAY: specialist child protection training.
EAVAN MCKAY: Our understanding is this new role will be
EAVAN MCKAY: across the system. It won't just be for family
EAVAN MCKAY: help teams. My question is around...
EAVAN MCKAY: What are your thoughts on this new role?
EAVAN MCKAY: Thinking about the benefits to the system it
EAVAN MCKAY: could have, but also any risks you might
EAVAN MCKAY: foresee in terms of the implementation.
MATT FORDE: To me, the crucial issue is what are the
MATT FORDE: advanced skills and knowledge that this person
MATT FORDE: would have. The way that we've structured child
MATT FORDE: protection as a social work-led activity
MATT FORDE: has locked into a professional framework
MATT FORDE: that doesn't really value expertise.
MATT FORDE: That, you know, if you progress as a social
MATT FORDE: worker, you become a manager and stop being
MATT FORDE: involved with families. Whereas in health
MATT FORDE: professions and mental health, for example,
MATT FORDE: psychologists and psychiatrists and
MATT FORDE: psychotherapists progress to become consultants
MATT FORDE: who are at a higher level of skill and
MATT FORDE: expertise, but continue to be in practice with
MATT FORDE: families. I think that is the
MATT FORDE: kind of structure we should have professionally
MATT FORDE: around the social work professionals or child
MATT FORDE: protection professionals who are doing the most
MATT FORDE: complex and challenging work.
MATT FORDE: They should have... They should have a level
MATT FORDE: of skill and expertise that's commensurate with
MATT FORDE: the complexity of children's needs and families'
MATT FORDE: lives.
MATT FORDE: But it's what that is, because my concern
MATT FORDE: would be that it would be a kind of
MATT FORDE: amplification of the risk assessment
MATT FORDE: mode that our system is locked in.
MATT FORDE: And it would really need to be supplemented by
MATT FORDE: skills which understand how it is you help
MATT FORDE: families. I mean, to understand how we negotiate
MATT FORDE: the benefits system; how you improve families'
MATT FORDE: ability to care for themselves and bring in
MATT FORDE: adequate income; how you understand mental
MATT FORDE: health, and what it is that drives
MATT FORDE: the stresses that undermine mental health; to
MATT FORDE: understand intergenerational trauma;
MATT FORDE: parent-child relationships; infant trauma, to
MATT FORDE: understand what it is that pressures on whole
MATT FORDE: families and whole communities.
MATT FORDE: Those are dimensions that are kind of missing
MATT FORDE: from, you know, the fairly arid assessments of
MATT FORDE: risk that result in — I'm oversimplifying —
MATT FORDE: but result in ultimatums
MATT FORDE: to families to change things by a certain time
MATT FORDE: or there will be action, instead of getting
MATT FORDE: alongside.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So, in terms of that lead professional
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: role, I think having a social
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: worker and somebody with that level of
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: safeguarding expertise is crucial
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: in ensuring that all of the — whoever is
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: that's leading the plan — and all of the
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: multi agencies that are part of that
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: plan, there does need to be somebody that
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: can always bring this back to "how safe
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: is this child?" and can knowingly, with
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: expertise, be able to answer that
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: question, support the professionals to
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: demonstrate that curiosity when
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: necessary, really challenge professionals
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: to keep thinking about safety as well as
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: their own expertise.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So that role is crucial in that space.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: And I think whether that's a lead professional
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: or another title, having
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: space or the opportunity to grow and
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: develop professionally for a social
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: worker is really important.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: And it might support some of the issues
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: around retaining good staff because you
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: can see a progression opportunity.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: So I do think in terms of continuing
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: to make sure that the child remains safe
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: in the family and that the plan is
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: effective, in terms of meeting the needs,
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: but ultimately keeping the child safe; to
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: have that professional, whether it's a
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: lead social worker or a social worker,
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: having oversight of a plan is crucial.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: That's how we keep children safe.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: That's why social workers are here;
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: because we want to keep children safe.
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: And when they're not safe, we want to
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: take action to bring them back to a place
RACHAEL HOLDCROFT: of safety.
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