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What's up, everybody?
I'm YOLO.
I'm Natalie and this is Black Healing Remix: The Podcast.
So now today I want to talk a little bit about this moment
where everybody's talking about wellness and healing and mental health.
Timelines flooded. Timelines flooded.
And I'm really grateful for that, right?
I mean, as somebody who's doing public health
and community health work for several years, right.
I remember the moment ten years ago when it was so difficult
to have conversations about mental health in mainstream.
Yeah, the person who put the thing on Facebook and said, “Oh,
I'm feeling like this.” Everybody was like, “Oh my goodness, what's going on?”
Yes, I remember that time, too.
And so it's wow.
Because now we're in this moment,
everyone's talking about things, which is wonderful and beautiful.
But one thing that I have to say that I'm concerned about
is someone who, you know, works in public health, works in community health,
as I'm seeing a lot of people who
maybe who have
skills and talents, but are overstepping the boundaries of what
their skills and talents can provide people who are in legitimate distress.
I'm talking about crystal healers talking about this crystal
And this tea going to help get you rid of your bipolar.
I'm talking about like, you know, yoga teacher is talking about it,
diagnosing people with certain kind of conditions,
even people who are just taking up the mantle of healer
and doing a lot of practices without a community of support,
without a community of accountability
and sometimes without any training from anyone.
That's kind of like picking up books that feeling
like they can experiment on folks sometimes causing a lot of harm.
Absolutely.
And so this is something that's really alarming to me because,
you know, at BEAM, we are really explicit about talking about
honoring the diversity of the spectrum of healers.
Right.
That yoga teachers, that energy healers that like herbalists, that
They all have a place. YOLO: We have a place.
But I'm also really nervous and concerned because I see some people
overstepping into spaces that are really hurting people.
NATALIE: Absolutely. You know, I don't know if you see something like this.
And yeah, I mean, I think the thing for me is, you know, we look on socials
and people are sharing a lot about what they're navigating.
And then I equally see a lot of people who are like, the guru suddenly. Where it’s like,
Homie, I knew you two weeks ago, you was not on this,
but now this is the vibe and this is a wave.
And so now you have an inspirational quote and now you're holding retreats
and you doing ayahuasca with people, right?
Like there there is this overstepping
of everybody can do really deep work.
And I think everybody has work
they can contribute. YOLO: Yeah.
But I think when we think about people who are experiencing
tremendous mental health crisis and distress,
I don't know if that's the best place.
If your Instagram timeline is the best place to be getting
the support that you deserve and that would most serve you.
Yeah, I think we also understand the distinctions within wellness
and mental health, right?
So I'm thinking about
like even, first of all, even with therapists.
Let’s start with therapists, right?
People tend to assume that a therapist has all the knowledge of every,
single support, right?
Like, know how to support every condition.
Knows how to support universally.
Is this ethical, moral person. And that's not the reality.
We know that's not the reality.
And we work with a lot of therapists and they tell us, I
there are things I don't know how to handle.
Clients come to me and they have certain things going on
and I have to refer them to someone else because I am not an expert in that
and I'm not always certain how to navigate it.
And so we recognize that on both sides of it
YOLO: Yes. Therapists are recognizing there are limitations
to the work that I do and the way the work can happen. YOLO: Yes.
And equally,
there's people who obviously share stories with us about unethical treatment
going on with them.
Yeah, And I think that's the important piece.
Like, you know, I was reading Dr.
Thomas Insel, who is a former director of the National Institutes of Health,
and he was talking about that
about 60% of therapists in this particular time period
I can't remember the exact time period, but we're not trained in science
based interventions to support people with serious mental illness.
I thought it was really profound. Right.
So, it made me begin to question like what are they trained in? Right?
And then when you dig a little deeper, you start to realize that actually
the people who have serious mental illness are often not treated by therapists.
Right?
They actually are treated like and by emergency rooms and like,
you know, inpatient work. Right.
So there's a little bit of a distinction there.
But I think what happens
when we have this conversation on therapy about get a therapist,
well, is this therapist a good fit for you?
Is this is this therapist able to have the skill set?
Are they training the curriculum that will actually support you in your wellness?
Like it's not just a one size fits all and therapists are not these absolute
like completely all knowing beings, which is what strange, strangely starts to happen.
I see a lot of therapists on social media kind of marrying some of the more
undesirable elements of the kind of evangelical preacher tradition
where it's like,
Now not only am I speaking for God, but I'm speaking for God as a therapist.
So now I am the ultimate power.
And that's alarming to me. Right.
Because I think that any situation you're going in to a therapist, whoever
for me, for it to be healing for me, you have to be in a co-healing dynamic.
And what I say is a co-healing dynamic is that in my opinion, a therapist,
a healer, or wellness for a person is a guide and a supporting their journey.
But you have to be engaged in it too.
You have to be actively opening, sharing,
participating, saying at times, “That don't feel good.”
(music plays)
Because also
when you think about anything, I think about massage very often, right?
And someone who is well versed in that and is a healer in that form of support
Right? They’re, just meeting your body for the first time.
Right? And I think about how often like people
you go to massage and you're like, and for me, my journey was
I would be getting these massages and I only like soft touch,
but because I exist in a big body, people think that I need to be pressed
on so hard, right?
And so I would get these massages trying to find relief and comfort
and I would be like, “Ow! Ow!” the whole time
I would be internally suffering and now combine
this with multiple experiences of sexual violence.
Now I'm scared to speak up,
right?
And I'm sitting in this thing that should be supportive and helpful to me, right?
That's what it's designed to be.
But then I'm caught in the midst of this feeling uncomfortable,
not knowing how to say, Hey, I don't like this,
or I feel uncomfortable not trying to offend them. Right?
You see how all the things can come together to really create this experience?
And of course, this is a small example of what could be happening
on a much larger scale for people in larger emotional distress.
Right.
And so I think that that's a really good illustration of sometimes how
people, number one, lose their voice in a process,
but also assume they understand what the dynamics of something is.
And how are we being educated about what to do in the first time you go to therapy?
I think about the tools that we have on our on our website where we talk
about things to consider prior to going to therapy.
When you're in your first session with a therapist,
here are some things to ask, right?
If you want to change therapists, here are some things to think about, right?
Like we've designed these tools to be able to support people,
to navigate them because that can be so tricky.
It can be so tricky.
And I think that another piece of it
First of all, I want to thank you for sharing that example.
I’m curious to know, I can imagine people listening who've been in similar situations.
How are you working through or navigating, being able to elicit
those boundaries for yourself, or what, where are you at in your journey?
Yeah, so at first I was like, “Push through.”
“You're a tough black girl.”
And then I was like, “Girl, that's bullshit.”
“And it ain't go work”, right?
You're traumatizing yourself more over again, right?
And then I was like, “Okay, I need”
because at first I was like, “Oh, anybody can massage me.”
And I was like, “Well, I'm getting triggered by these dudes who they”
“They doin’ too much”, right?
So then I was like, “I'm only going to be massaged by women.”
So that was my first step.
And then I went to when I get a massage, I explicitly say
“I have experienced sexual violence.”
“I need you to communicate what you're doing”
“and when you're doing it, that will really help me be able to relax.”
Now, the first time I said it, I was like,
“Oh my God, I am so terrified to say this.”
And the woman said back to me, “I'm a survivor too.”
“I got you.”
And I was like, “Oh, we on! I’m going to say this every single time.”
And then and now it's become a ritual and a practice for me to advocate for myself.
The same thing when I go to a chiropractor.
I went to a chiropractor and I was like, so uncomfortable.
I was like, you just doing stuff and you moved me away.
I was like, “Okay, I need to just establish like, here's who I am in the world”
“and I'm coming here not to be violated, not to be more traumatized.”
And if I advocate for myself by using my voice
now this changes the whole dynamic.
Because also now, you know, I know what's up.
Right?
It changes the power dynamic.
And for me,
that's really helpful to being able to, like, be relaxed because I come in saying,
“Hey, I'm mindful of these things and I need you to be also.”
Mm hmm. I love that.
That's powerful.
It's powerful.
I mean, it took...it is practice.
It is contending with myself.
It is talking with my therapist about it. Right.
It's it's all of the things and being like, “No, but I deserve care.”
“I deserve to be treated in a way that actually honors me.”
Not just like, well, everybody gets massages and they're fine.
Why am I not?
I don't care why I'm not.
There's a whole list of stories of why I'm not.
And also today, I need this massage, and I need you to be ethical
while providing me care and support.
Yeah, it's also makes me so
It's so disturbing to me that, like, that's not a mandatory
part of masseuse training.
Like, “Before I touch you, how I touch you.”
“I'm going to let you know what's happening.”
Like, I experienced a similar thing when I was a yoga teacher, right?
I went to a school.
You know what it was led by brown people.
I'm grateful to be taught by Indian folks about, like, yoga,
but with a lot of white folks there and other studios that I was a part of.
That was what a lot of white folks.
And I was always shocked at how much nonconsensual touching happened.
Like how much that was an adjustment to your waist.
And you was like, “Whoa, you didn”t ask me to touch my waist.”
Yeah, I like, “Push you back down.” And you’re like, “Hold on” YOLO: Moving your body
and doing things with your body without saying the simple,
“Hey, is it okay to touch you?”
“Is it okay?”
Even I've heard people say thing like, “I'm going to touch you right now.”
But that's not it.
You’re not letting me know I'm going to touch you right now.
You're going to tell, ask me, is it okay to touch me?
Yeah.
And so consent based practice is not very common when it comes to yoga teaching
when it comes to masseuse, unfortunately.
But that needs to be a standard, right?
(music plays)
And needs to be a standard even in therapy.
I think in about psychiatry, too, right?
I think is so important
Like for me,
I had to learn, unlearn the conditioning that I feel like we as black folks get.
Well, when you go to the doctor, you kind of hang your head down low
and whatever they say, you just kind of listen to.
They must know everything because they're the doctor
and then they rush you out of the space.
And I had to go to the space, walk with my therapist and with my doctor
I'm like, I have questions.
I pay a lot of money to be here.
So I have, you have time. And okay, first, I know the first time I did it,
he was like, “Whoa, okay.”
But he sat down and listen to what I had to say, right?
Because I think that sometimes in the training of physicians,
they are trained to be so dismissive to your needs and then to,
God forbid you got a white doctor, you black, that all that bias comes in
or I've had many black straight doctors who the minute they see I'm gay,
that judgment and shame comes in. Alright, ok, “What kind of sex you havin’?”
Like you know you can feel that shame, right?
Same thing can happen in your therapeutic relationship.
Absolutely. Someone who's a therapist can do something
or say something that does not feel good for you.
And it's okay for you to say, “I don't like that. I want to stop”
or “I need to understand what's happening right now.”
And I think it's important that we
tell our folks that because we know that so often
doctors, therapists, a lot of different practitioners are not
and are not as thoughtful, or safe for us.
And when you think about, you know,
because part of me
as well is thinking about all the healers that I know that are well-intentioned.
Right.
But also are a part of these raggedy systems.
Right. I have a fantastic doctor.
She's a part of a terrible system where she has 13 minutes or what,
you know, some very short amount of time to talk to me about everything
that's going on with my body and then be like, “Okay, great”
“Okay, I'll send you an email” because she got to keep moving
because if she doesn't now she's reprimanded,
she document it in the system,
all of these different things.
And so I think about the system, the healers who are a part
of systems, right.
That some of what we consider like the reckless or carelessness
or poor bedside manner is really because of the systems
that they're a part of in the ways in which they've been trained.
But equally, for folks who are not being trained right,
who have a more organic path to their their healing journey
and the offerings that they have in the world, there's no accountability,
but there's also no community saying, “Hey”, right.
Because if you build a business and you or whatever,
if I say, “Hey, YOLO, I'm kind of I'm nervous about people”
“Well, this my business”
“If you want to do it this way, then you worry about your own business”, right?
And so I wonder about that dynamic of where are the checks and balances?
Is there a necessity for them?
And then who's caught in the crossfire?
(music plays)
Well, and also understand the checks and balances don't exist
as thoughtful as we would like them to be for therapists and psychiatrists.
Right.
I mean, we talk about psychiatrists having really unprecedented power
to institutionalize people, to reject family recommendations, to hold people
literally hostage within institutions off of their assessments.
NATALIE: Yeah Like we're talking about like abuses of power.
And even with physicians and therapists, when there are times
in which grievances happen, the process is often labeled very labored
for people or this often like. Or it's a fake process, right?
A fake process.
So there's so,
you know, even the people are like, “Oh, you know, I'm licensing as accountability.”
Is there? Have you ever tried to file a grievance
with a social worker out there?
Do you know what that process is like?
and how and how and how it can be grueling on the person?
So I think that like while I'm grateful there is some structure
that needs to be really sharpened, I do worry, like you, about the healers
who are like, “I feel compelled to help people, but I don't understand.”
“I don't have enough skills and tools. I don't understand...”
“I don't have the skills and tools to go in as deep as I'm trying to go.”
It's like saying that I started swimming classes yesterday
and now I'm going to go into the 15 feet in the pool.
Like it's like, “Whoa, bruh.”
“Like you've got to slow down” NATALIE: Stay in that kiddy pool.
And you got to think about who are the people next to you
who are going to pull you
in and be like, these are skills and tools. Like, for example, like I think about
like some things we talk about with different kinds of facilitators, right?
There's a difference between a facilitator and often a therapist.
Every therapist is not not a facilitator. Right, Right.
And some people are just great at holding space.
That doesn't mean you know how to facilitate,
Which is guide someone to somewhere, which is guide and move people
to a process, emotionally. Based on who the unique people are
and what's happening in the world and energy and all the dynamics.
And that is a different level.
That's a different level.
And a lot of people who have these licenses
and degrees, like psychologist I work with,
who will be, who immediately say, I'm not a facilitator,
I can't do what you do to move a group through a process emotionally.
YOLO: Cause that's not how I work.
And also think about how often when we're in session with folks
we're training and the things that we're training them on.
They say, “I have never been trained on any of this.”
“That this is the thing that when my patients come to me,”
“I have no idea what to do because I've never been trained.”
“And in this for our training, y'all have taught me how to navigate this.”
And it's, it happens a lot in our trainings where there are therapists and clinicians
who come in and they're just like flabbergasted at the framing we have.
And it makes me angry.
And it's disturbing because, you know,
first of all, we kind of assume just like the doctors,
I mean, like any other training
that like you're getting this training, this ethical and safe and like
and the most progressive.
But it's not what's happening, right? Now first of all, I in no way
do I think the training of hardly anything is the most progressive?
Right, right, right.
So like so we have to be clear about that.
Like, yes, when we're setting up systems,
right, and assembly lines for something
that that will not be the highest quality of care.
In fact, it will be the minimum requirement.
Right. We just we're meeting the requirement.
And I go
“Is that how we want our folks cared for?” The people who are in the most distress.
That's the system they're going to engage?
That's a healer.
I think about the pandemic and how many people needed therapy.
Right. And were desiring it.
And the assembly line of therapists being overrun
with clients and patients and like not even doing the proper due
diligence or paperwork or case notes or anything to make sure
that folks were being properly supported
I will say this, and that
may not be a popular stance to say, but I have deep concerns also
for the well-being of therapists because I think that the way
that therapy is constructed is actually not healthy for them as well.
No, how could it be?
I mean, like when I think about some people, I know you're sitting on a couch.
Or you’re sitting on a in a room for hours on end, hearing people share things.
You're helping them work through things.
And I'm thinking about, you know, this is me as my somatics yoga teaching
I'm like, “How are you getting your body? How you getting them in their body?”
I think about one, some of the
some therapists I know in our network who talk about like taking
they're taking their clients to the basketball court
when they work with kids and they process with the basketball court
Goin on walks together. I'm like, there's so many dynamic things.
But that's not how many clinicians are trained in that discipline.
They're trained to be
this is the model as opposed to like, let's be dynamic, let's figure out
other ways to kind of engage.
And I feel like, you know, there's so much therapist burnout.
I mean, like how many folks in our network do we know who like,
“I can't even see clients right now because I'm overwhelmed and distressed”
or have retired.
Yes, because they're like, I'm a former therapist.
Yeah, because this system is not giving life in the way that I thought it was.
And we hear that very, very often.
Therapist saying it's not all it's cracked up to be.
And how I can support people isn't always what they need, which I think is, is,
you know, some of the stories that you've shared with me about like
I don't think that the way people are being supported is the best way
and therefore trying to create new systems
to be able to support people where they actually are
(music plays)
The system’s piece
is really important when we talk about any practitioner
because we have to really
look at how that, what you said, like the assembly line is creating.
And we also have to talk about
some individual responsibility and community responsibility as well.
Yeah, it's both, and. It's both, and.
And I think that like what's happening, you know,
I think about an example of a story I had with someone who is a very prominent
healing and wellness leader
and we had in kind of disagreement around this idea that healing was finite.
He was very committed, this idea that like,
“Oh, no, you can you need to heal that and you can heal that and it can be done
and you'll never have to deal with that ever again.”
And I was like, I want to know what world he lives in because I want to go there.
If that's true, I want to go where that is.
But to me, that's reflective of what level and dimension
of training and research and reading have you done
that has led you to be so rigid and not understand the human experience?
And like here you have this huge platform and now people feel shame
because they're not over something that happened 30 years ago
because they're activated about something that happened yesterday.
And I'm like, “You're out here teaching this”
“And because you are a man, you will be read this way.”
You will be trusted with a lot of vulnerable people,
a lot of vulnerable women, I would say, as well.
And so I'm always alarmed about the ways in which
because I'm always checking my ideas and concepts, right.
To see like, what am I teaching? What am I sharing?
Does this feel right?
And having people around me who say no and me listen and be like,
“Oh, I hear where you're going to that place.”
But there are a lot of people who are in various
different kind of healing modalities who have some of our platforms
and some who are working with people under the auspice of coaching,
spiritual leadership, etc.
And it's very evident
the dimension of their skill
is not as strong as they purport it to be. Or they don't understand
that they might be harming a lot more people than they're helping.
And, you know, it makes me curious about like,
what is the desire to tell people
that you can get over something permanently, right?
Because what I know about my own lived experience is that what has made me
most powerful is that every single thing I've experienced is useful.
That it has sparked something in me, whether curiosity,
whether the opportunity to see life differently,
whether it is the opportunity to forgive myself or someone else.
Right. It's all been useful.
It's one of the things my mom says she thinks is most brilliant about me.
She says, you use it all.
She says, I see other people.
They throw away stuff.
They don't want to hold the whole thing.
Yeah, they want to move from it.
And you will take the whole thing and go, “Yes, even the worst days”
“I want those too.”
Because what I found is that
there is a day when they are useful, right?
When I can go
“Oh I know. Okay, I clock that.”
“I did this in this way, this time I'm gonna do that different this time.”
But if we discard it all, we delete.
Now it's not useful to you. You can't.
You can't recall it, you can't make it useful.
And I go,” So what is the point of
all of these life lessons, all of this pain, all these things,
If we can't use it, if we can't turn it into something?”
The artist in me is like, “Turn it into something beautiful. At the end of all this shit”
“Y'all gon know I've been through some shit and it's going to be beautiful as hell.”
You know why?
Because I used it all. In every single thing that I'm doing
I'm using it. Right.
And you were talking about my light before.
I'm a light it up, because otherwise I'd be sitting here like, “Oh, my God.”
“And then my dad.” And then it's like, What?
That ain't.
That ain't the pulse of the moment.
That's not fully living.
And I can't connect with other people if I'm, if I'm deleting the things that,
that, you know, in some ways cultivated the opportunity for who I would become.
Yeah. Yeah.
And that's what happens when you have irresponsible
framework that you're kind of sharing. NATALIE: Yeah.
And I want to also hold this with the fact that like there are a lot of community
healers, indigenous healers, people who are doing healing with crystals,
people doing energy work, who are highly ethical and highly accountable
and very cautious and mindful and will tell you that's not my domain.
And I was just going to say and they typically say “No”
very often. Right.
They work in limited hours. Right.
They are cultivating sacred space for themselves to stay aligned.
Right.
They're not like, oh, yeah, I heal everyone all the time.
They're like, “Y'all got me for the three days after that, I'm in Tahiti
because I got to pull it together and come back when I am resourced”, right?
And so I think about all the
the therapists and just wellness workers and different people who they burn out,
they tired, they talk about how they needs ain’t met.
And I'm go, “I'm not sure what you can offer someone into deep distress”
“if you yourself are in deep distress.”
Oooh, I'm so glad we're having this conversation
because I'm really alarmed at the ways in which everybody's yelling go to therapy
and everybody's kind of “My therapist said”, I'm like sometimes
some people say that my therapist said something.
I'd be like, Sis,
YOLO: I need to have that person's license number
YOLO: because I have some questions about how that was communicated.
You know what I mean, like, so it's just like we need to realize we're engaging humans
and we have to be active, agents in the process.
We can't just assume they have all the power.
Or that they're always right, that they’re always correct.
No, this is a person who has a skill, hopefully, who's been trained
well with a skill, hopefully, you know what I mean?
And I need to assess them
just like I assess the barber. I keep going back to that example I use.
Just like with that barber, if my line looks funky, I'm going to have a question.
YOLO: Why my line lookin like that? NATALIE: I’m gonna have no question.
I'm gonna be like, “Thank you, good luck.”
“I'm not coming back.”
(music plays)
But also recognizing that
mental health that becomes challenging to advocate for ourselves.
I think about, you know, when I had my most recent sexual assault experience
and I was sharing with my therapist about the experience, and she said to me,
“Why would you put yourself in that situation?”
And I was like,
Hold up.
So here's the thing.
What you not going to do is blame me for someone else's actions.
That's not what we're doing today.
Secondly, this is our last session because you are clearly
not qualified to support me through what I am navigating.
And it was like
only because I have all of this training, because I have all of this experience.
Did I know “Hold up sis”
“You saying...this ain't even it”, right?
And then I could create a boundary and then, you know, later in the session
she's like, “Yeah,
“I don't think I'm the right therapist because I'm not trained and I'm you know”
“I'm really not trained to be able to, like”
“support you through something that's deeply traumatizing.”
And I'm like, “Well, sis, then what we doin’ here?
Why are you you know what I mean?
Like, if you are not able to support the breath of what might come up,
why wouldn't you communicate that in the beginning to say,
“Here's my expertise, here's what I can hold?”
And I think about I'm a person who does mental health work, right?
And these are the experiences that I'm having.
So what are the experiences of our community who do not have this
much information, these many resources, this much advocacy in them?
Right.
What is happening to them?
And so I stand with you in terms of like this rage around, like,
no, no, no, this ain't it.
Because so much harm is happening.
And to people who are seeking out help
and that's really, really dangerous.
That's a powerful example.
And like, think about like, what would it mean
if like, clinicians were to come up front and say that?
And I'm also like, really upset that you had, that you experience that,
that like literally you were in this moment
where you were really trying to be vulnerable and share an experience
and here comes patriarchy, misogyny through this person,
trying to shift
focus away from the real choices someone else made and make them yours.
And that that's that's a horrible experience to have.
But it's also an experience so many of us also have as well, which is unfortunate.
Right.
And it also was a reminder to me is as far as we think we've come.
Yeah.
With as many people having therapy, what is the quality
of the therapeutic intervention that they're having?
Right.
When people don't know that, they can say,
“Hey, this is what I'm looking for in a therapist.”
So many people come to me and they'll say,
“Oh, well”, I say, “You know, you're going to therapy now.”
“I'm so excited for you.”
“How's that going?” Right?
I do the check in with people because I'm like, “What's your therapist talkin’ about?”
And they're like, “Oh, well, you know, I guess it's okay.”
I, you know, “I wish they were this way”, right?
They'll say their wish list of “I wish I was being supported in this way”
or “I wish they were talking about this” or, you know, whatever.
And I say, you know, you're in charge of your session.
YOLO: You know, you're paying for the session. You are paying for this session.
If your needs are not met, you need to communicate that
to the therapist. YOLO: Which can be a difficult thing.
Their job is to support you.
Absolutely scary, terrifying, all the things.
And guess what?
They gon’ get they money every time you sit down.
and so are we gon’ get our needs met or are we going to be like,
“Let me just give you my money” and you over here going to Barneys, but
I'm over here still going through stuff and not supported, but spending my money.
That ain't it either. YOLO: Yeah.
And so recognizing that, like as a community, we have to know
that we get to ask questions.
We get to say, “Hey, this is what support looks like for me.”
“I'm curious
about why you're asking me this question”, right?
“Is there another way you might help me navigate this thing?”
“This feels like too large of a step for me.”
“What would be a smaller step?”
“This medication makes me feel this way, and I don't feel comfortable with it.”
“What are my other options?”
“Can you support me in the journey of discovering other options?”
I think that happens a lot with folks who are taking medications
is that what happens is
you have this medication which makes you feel under water
and all the variety of side effects because the reality is
that many mental health medications come with side effects.
But like if you don't have the, if you don't feel comfortable,
a lot of people feel comfortable advocating and say “I don't like this”
So they just stop taking them.
Well and also very many, you know,
doctors and folks prescribing medication are saying, “this is the answer.”
Yes exactly.
And you're like, “Okay.”
And so those are two pieces, Right? Right.
So one is like,
maybe I do feel like I want to engage in medication as a strategy,
but I'm scared to say that I feel uncomfortable with
I don't feel good about the side effects.
So I stop, which has other kind of implications, potentially.
Right.
And then there’s a piece about like, you know, I talked to a lot of black psychiatrists
in our network about monitoring and effective monitoring.
And of the ways in which black folks are monitoring.
When I say monitoring it's like when you take your medication,
whether you're coming in with check in check ins
or checking your blood and all this stuff and like making sure
seeing how your progress, progressing with the medication
and how that doesn't happen for a lot of black folks.
A lot of black children. NATALIE: Or not as often as it should happen
In the same way.
Right.
So I'm thinking about that dimension of like that happening.
And you're right,
(music plays)
We have to recognize and hold that
while medicine can be a powerful intervention and tool,
there are big interests in this country
that are not in, that that are interested in the quick fix of the pill,
as opposed to recognizing that like depression and bipolar and schizophrenia
need broader societal interventions, not just this quick fix pill.
Right?
And the ways in which overdiagnosis and diagnostic inflation happen
to create a space where everybody
just getting a pill, getting a pill. But it's like, well, okay, wait, what?
Because that in any tool can be dangerous depending on your relationship to it.
Yeah, medicine can be great in relationship to it.
Yoga could be dangerous depending on your relationship to it. Right.
All these things.
So it's about what, I think as a culture, we have to ask this question
“What is our relationship to these mental health medications?”
“Are they useful for what we're doing?”
Because there's a lot of research that talks about like the question
Have questions about SSRIs, selective serotonin intake
reuptake inhibitors - like with depressive, like for depression.
Right.
There's a lot of questions about like, you know, the effectiveness
of some of these medications versus the side effects. Right.
And we have a right to ask those questions.
NATALIE: And...
we have to ask who's funding? YOLO: Yes.
The diagnosis. YOLO: Oh, yes.
That is leading. YOLO: Yes.
To people needing to be on medications.
And how often is that being manipulated such
that pills are the first option for many folks
when maybe another intervention actually would be the right thing.
But the thing about it is
and you know, Dr. Thomas Insel
and his book
From Mental Health to Mental Illness talks about this a lot.
Social people intervention is what we know supports people with mental conditions.
You know, we know that having navigation around care, having social support,
people who have had similar diagnosis
and you can often be very dynamic and transformative, and helpful.
i.e. Community. People. Friends
But it's expensive.
NATALIE: Yes. It's one of the reasons that I have such a beef with, like
YOLO: It's one of the reasons that I have such a beef with, like
why I'm grateful that in this country we're talking about peer specialists
and making it professional, but they're paid crap wages.
So it's like, you've got a peer specialists being paid to live at the poverty line
to do really rigorous and hard work, right?
People who've been in conditions that they’ve been and be triggered and activated.
And so my beef with all of this is
everything's expensive.
YOLO: Yeah.
But we still got Maseratis.
We still sending people to space.
YOLO: Okay. People still got yachts.
So is it that things are too expensive
or we are spending money in ridiculous ways?
I mean, there's a large argument as well
that Rob Wimpond, who is the author of the book
I want to make sure I say it correctly.
Your Consent Is Not Required
He talks about like this myth of the health care is underfunded.
He said I think actually it's not that health care is underfunded.
It's just like, where is the funding going and for what?
And so he talks about like, you know, this is a billion dollar industry.
Where is the money going?
Is the question
That's what I want to come back to.
You mentioned, so diagnostic inflation,
people who are listening or watching is essentially something that happens
where the diagnostic criteria in the DSM, which is Diagnostic Statistical Manual,
kind of the Bible of psychiatry
and mental health in the West. Which if you don't know about the DSM,
take a night off from Google,
from from Netflix and go here and Google the DSM
and the history of the DSM, honey, it is riveting.
It is riveting. It is riveting. YOLO: It's very riveting.
So what happens with DSM is that essentially these criteria
for let's say, the criteria for depression gets inflated.
And when I say diagnostic inflation, it means that what was once a very like,
precise criteria for who could qualify for this condition gets expanded.
And the expansion is curious because people begin to wonder,
“Well, who is funding our supporting the research around this expansion?”
Because we end up happening now where at one point it was only you and me could be
meet this criteria.
NATALIE: Now me, your cousin, your momma, everybody else.
Which creates other avenues for medication.
Mm. Right.
And so there's a lot of, like activists, disability justice activist,
mad activists, who have a lot of questions about diagnostic criteria.
I'm Alan Francis, who was formerly on the DSM committee,
actually has a lot of questions.
He talks about this, he has this book called Saving Normal
and why I don't get the care for the framing of Saving Normal.
What he's trying to say is
he's recognizing how diagnostic inflation is being used
as a tool of companies to over medicate people and make people
everyone have a condition and making every day humanness
now a Pathology.
Yeah.
It's a problem to solve which means there's money to make off of it
And welcome to capitalism
and also like this is dangerous, right? This is deeply harmful.
And when we think about deeply marginalized folks,
when we think about black trans folks, when we think about the most marginalized
in our community, who again and again and again will be deeply impacted
by what I think is really criminal, right?
Yeah.
This misuse and taking advantage of, you know,
folks who don't, are not in a position to advocate for themselves.
Yeah. Yeah.
I mean there's a lot of dimensions to that.
I mean I just think about also the ways in which people, you know,
are often like, you know, drugged in ways that are not helpful when they
when they're institutionalized and when they’re
brought into inpatient care.
NATALIE: Mm hmm. Right.
And the impact of that. And when you think about some of,
you know, some some films from the 80s in the 90s and
you see people being institutionalized, you always see them being drugged.
You always see that as part of what is normal.
And I think, you know, as just people, right.
We watch that and we go, “Oh, this is entertainment”, but what is this based on?
Where did we get the idea that everyone who is institutionalized
needs to be drugged to the point of drooling?
Even that term, “institutionalized” is like, you know, I mean, like
brought, its not brought in to care because it's not care, right?
So like, like it’s really like imprisoned almost
is the more appropriate term for what's really happening.
Right.
I did a conversation a while back called the Black People Left Behind
talking about, you know, all across this country there are black people
who are imprisoned because of mental conditions and distress.
There are folks in these behavioral health hospitals,
quote unquote, because of distress, who are really left behind.
When we think about racial justice and social justice,
we're often not thinking about those folks.
We're not thinking about, you know, folks who are living with schizophrenia,
who are often dismissed and denied.
Particularly around this like this bourgeoisie stuff. Right.
You know, it's like they're not the black people we're trying to bring it to to safety.
You know what I mean?
And and I just think about those dimensions.
It's like why it's so necessary for us to
Um...
always uphold.
Particularly in healing justice work,
to think about the folks at the margins, Right?
the folks whose conditions are not the... everybody can talk about depression, anxiety,
but are we talking about schizophrenia like that?
Are we talking about borderline personality like that?
Are we talking about like, you know, postpartum depression like that?
There’s a lot of things we’re not.
And also, do we even know what those things actually mean?
Yeah.
Do we know what the signs of the, signs and symptoms of these things are?
And then do we know how to navigate it?
Should it be us or someone we care about one day?
And the answer is no.
Because when mental health, you know, things happen in people's families,
no one knows what to do.
Yeah, and it's so funny, not only do we know that piece
But also I think about
do we understand where the pain, this might be stemming from?
So Dr. Bruce Perry
has a book with Oprah Winfrey called
What Happened To You
It’s a really great book.
I recommend you read it.
Oprah talks about her experience. Dr. Bruce Perry
talks about his experience with wellness and mental health.
And one of the things that’s really brilliant
about what he talks about, I think it was one piece he's
talking about like, some of the personality
disorders and different conditions, he said, as opposed to framing it
this way, said thinking about it like this, with the personality disorders,
you have someone who has become highly disregulated and developed
very highly maladaptive coping strategies to navigate their pain and distress.
And I was like, “Wow, that's such a different way to think about that.”
Because when you hear when you get this BPD
Personality Disorder, you like, “Oh God, you crazy!”
There’s a lot going on!
Like, you don't think that like, “Oh, this is a person who's been in pain”
“Who was developed a”
“variety of different strategies to navigate that pain.”
That are not helpful for them.
And I think the lens that we talk about mental health in the country
generally is always over there.
It's something that's going on.
It's too much we don't know how to deal with it,
and so just get it out, get it away from me, essentially.
But we know that every number one, every single person has mental health,
that over the course of a lifetime, people are going to experience
tremendous life stressors and traumatic events.
And so recognizing that, like avoiding the conversation of mental health and care
and spending any time thinking about that is frankly dangerous for each of us,
because across our lifetime we are going to be impacted,
whether it is us or someone we know and love and care about.
And so like not finding the solution or at least
not even beginning to think about it to me is deeply, deeply troubling.
You know? YOLO: Yep, it is.
(music plays)
You know, as a as a healing justice worker,
you know, I've done a variety of different health and wellness interventions,
taught effective behavioral health interventions
with the CDC, comprehensive risk counseling services
NATALIE: So many YOLO: All these things.
YOLO: And also created interventions, right.
And done research projects.
I think it's always important for us, wherever we are as practitioners,
to know our boundaries and our limitations,
to know what we don't do Right? For whatever reason.
And so I really want to implore you, if you are doing healing work, to begin
to think about limitations, what are your strengths and your powers?
And what are also the things that you need to know
that you are not good at and like and help
support people around you and help them see those things in themselves as well.
And getting further skills or further collaboration
because I wonder what it would be like if therapists were collaborating
with life coaches instead of arguing on Twitter
all the time about who's the true healer or whatever that looks like.
Because like
there are some life coaches who are doing amazing work. absolutely brilliant
NATALIE: Absolutely brilliant work. YOLO: Right?
And there are some crystal healers.
So I'm like, “That's a dope way to relate to those concepts.”
There are some astrologers,
so I'm like, “Oh, you really help people to build self-reflexivity”
And that's a great tool, right?
There are some group facilitators
who could who can hold a space and move people to an emotional process
in a way that I think is so beautiful and daring and necessary for collective work.
Yolo, if you wanna talk about me, just talk about me
YOLO: Oh, my Lord Jesus...Ok.
There you go. Okay.
But yes, all those, so we need us all.
But we also need to support our folks with helping to understand
the signs of “this may not be a great place for me.”
“This might, this might not be healthy.” And recognizing our capacity
as individuals, but also professionally,
because I think that's the thing that bumps up against each other,
right, is people who want to do good work and want to help
and usher people into whatever the next iteration of themselves.
That work is endless. YOLO: Yeah.
And so where are the breaks?
Where are the pauses?
Where is your own healing in that process?
And are we building in time to assess our process?
To assess if the way we're doing it
is the way that it needs to be done in this current climate?
And when we think about the pandemic
and we think about life after the pandemic, right?
People don't talk about the pandemic no more because it's over.
But folks
who are navigating disabilities, folks who are navigating all kind of, right,
like they are still in this pandemic while everybody outside.
Right.
And so recognizing that we all have to understand our limitations
and recognize that like, part of it is about being self-reflexive and going,
“Hmm, well, if I've done it the way”
“I've always done it, but the world around me is different.”
“Is that still useful? Is that still helpful?”
And I think that curiosity is the important piece, not the judgment.
Right? “Oh, that's a bad thing or this is a good thing.”
Not useful to us, right?
But being like, “Hmm, how am I contributing to the culture of healing?”
“Who could I work with?” Right?
I wish healers work together more.
Yeah, because there's more opportunities for, for better.
Like for a different dimension of healing when we collaborate.
And I think
that's the brilliance of the work we get to do at BEAM is we get to bring
all different kinds of healers together.
And I think about the work that we did in Buffalo after, you know, after this
mass shooting happened and we went to go support that community
because, we felt like it was important, right?
And we pulled up with eight different kinds of healers.
We had aromatherapy.
We had a therapist, the traditional council psychologist.
We had a sound bath healer. Right?
We came in as with our healing facilitation work. And like...
one of the
things we got from some for, some of the folks in Buffalo was like
they had never had an opportunity engage so many different practices.
NATALIE: All at once.
YOLO: All at once. Right?
And like in different ways, in different spaces and times.
And so, I know I learned a lot from that experience.
I learned about the importance of giving people different entry points.
There were certain people who came into that space
Um...
in buffalo and were like, “Oh, the sound bath was...that really helped me.”
And then some people who came into the peer circle that we led
and they were like,
“Yolo when you said that and y’all did that, that really helped me.”
But then it was people who like the coloring.
“Oh, she gave me the aromatherapy spray, that sage”
“It makes me feel like I can kind of open up more”, right?
Some people came and they said I didn't know what to expect.
And we started dancing in that floor
and they start getting on a phone call and talk about
“Hey y'all, they all right”
“Y’all better come on down here because this is feeling good”, right?
And recognizing that that's what our folks need. YOLO: Yes.
We don't all need the same thing, but we all have some need. YOLO: Yes.
And so where do we go to to fill it, to be met, to be resourced? YOLO: Yes.
And are those things actually good for us or just on the surface?
They are.
And I talk to my mom about that a lot because she'll see stuff,
you know, on social media.
And she doesn't have the same lens.
Obviously, there's a generational lens, so she can't spot the fake things.
Right. So she'd be like
“Well they said, they gon’ do X, Y, Z” and I'll be like, “Girl, that's a scam,” right?
And recognizing that even generationally. YOLO: Yes.
We have to, we have to be mindful
of when we're bringing these kind of interventions to our elders,
recognizing that some of this stuff is gon’ churn up...
YOLO: A lot.
NATALIE: A lot.
And are they in a place
to do this aggressive kind of thing that you're doing?
Right.
And so really being mindful of of each of our boundaries,
but also healer boundaries, I think is so important.
I love that.
(music plays)
Thinking about
this episode and affirmation to kind of summarize it, I'm curious about
I have some things come to my head, but I'm curious...
Lead us, lead us, lead us.
Because we've been talking about, you know, this, the wellness industry,
the mental health industrial complex and all the nuances of it.
Understanding that we still can find a lot
of healing in it and find little pieces, but also understand what to navigate it.
I think something that you say very often is
let's find what is useful in this,
not to throw all of it away.
Right, because the systems are built. And some of these systems
trash, they got to go, right?
But, some of them, they're imperfect.
But if we get a screwdriver and get some tape and we...
and put this person, right? Now, there's something here, right?
I think about a building, every building ain’t designed in a brilliant way.
But you knock all these walls down, you start adding the walls in the right place.
You put that color and that light, honey.
Now we got a vibe, right?
And so how do we do that with these systems, right?
Some of them, there is value in them, and some of them...whew! Got to go.
We got to take this old building down and start completely new.
But I think, you know, you remind me very, very often what is useful here.
Yeah.
And also what is not.
Right. That we can keep what is useful.
We can extract what is useful.
And everything that is does not serve us.
Let us let it go
And I think, you know, for me that's sound like we gon' take
what’s useful and if it ain't, let us let it go.
That's the affirmation.
The affirmation for me is...
that feels supportive, even in the murkiness.
We can have that.
And I want you to assess for yourselves whoever listening
and watching
is the care that I'm getting representative, that if it's not,
how do I get support for my loved ones, my community,
to find the care that will do that?
Because you deserve it. Because healing is our birthright.
Healing is our birthright.
And that is my affirmation.
I love it.
Thank you.
(music plays)
It’s ya girl, Natalie.
And back with you to share a tip and a tool and a way to navigate
that might be helpful to you. It's been really helpful to me.
I'm a fan of a good journal, right, of writing in a notebook
and scribbling down.
And a tip that I have for you is, have you ever tried to free write?
Right.
It's an opportunity to set a timer for 5 minutes.
You got 5 minutes, boo. 5 minutes, right.
And just open your notebook and just brain dump.
Whatever's on your heart, whatever's on your spirit.
Don't judge yourself. Don't make any rules.
If you can't spell it, it don't matter.
You write what you want to write and dump it all out.
It's an opportunity to decompress in a quick, short amount of time.
Don't judge yourself, though.
That's the tip.
Just write.
Just let go, let loose and see what you discover.