1 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:10,280 Hello and welcome to the National Trust Podcast. 2 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:14,160 My name is Misty Monique, a drag queen and guest presenter for this episode. 3 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:17,280 Today I'm heading to Smallhythe place in the Kentish countryside, 4 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:20,520 best known as the home of a celebrated Victorian actress. 5 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,880 But I'll be heading out into the garden to a barn and working theatre, 6 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:25,880 there I'll be exploring the history of drag. 7 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:28,800 And the stage’s links to the LGBTQ+ community. 8 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:44,280 And I'll be putting on a special performance of my own. 9 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:46,520 In a nutshell, drag will typically include 10 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,760 exploring gender through performance for the purposes of entertainment. 11 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:51,920 Performers come in all shapes and sizes. 12 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:55,440 There are drag queens like me, drag kings and drag things. 13 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:57,240 The term drag is a bit of a mystery. 14 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:00,440 One of the most popular ideas is that male performers performed as women back 15 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:04,240 in Shakespeare's day and that the robes they wore would drag on the stage floor. 16 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,080 Another theory is that it's a combination of the two words Grand 17 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:10,120 and Rag used to refer as the costumes performers wear. 18 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,320 I wouldn't say anything particularly grand in my wardrobe, 19 00:01:12,320 --> 00:01:16,640 but they’re definitely not rags! 20 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:20,320 [Background sound of performance] Stand up and turn around...stand up. 21 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,400 Drag performances have been around for centuries, all across the world. 22 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,520 With each country having its own style and story to tell. 23 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:29,200 In the UK, drag has been one of the mainstays of light, 24 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:33,000 British entertainment on the stage, at the cinema and on TV. 25 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:36,880 As a nation, we have produced some of the greats like Lily Savage and Danny La Rue. 26 00:01:36,960 --> 00:01:38,640 There have been sketches by the Two Ronnies, 27 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:40,280 a myriad of gender swaps in Blackadder 28 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,280 and primetime shows like the UK version of RuPaul's Drag Race. 29 00:01:43,320 --> 00:01:46,720 And if you're still thinking you've not seen drag, let me tell you. 30 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,880 Oh, yes, you have. 31 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:53,840 If you've been to a panto, then you've essentially seen drag 32 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:56,840 and while today tv or streaming are the easiest way to see drag, 33 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,160 live performances happen up and down the country 34 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:01,800 in towns and cities in theatres, bars and clubs. 35 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,320 Whether that's traditional cabaret or as part of a drag bingo or drag brunch event. 36 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:07,520 At my home in Cheltenham in Gloucestershire, 37 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:08,560 one of the regular places 38 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,720 I grace the stage is an old 17th century barn in the town centre. 39 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:12,840 So in an attempt to sprinkle 40 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:15,840 a little bit of drag glitter across the boards in a more rural setting, 41 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:23,000 I'm heading to the theatre in the barn at Smallhythe Place in the Kent countryside. 42 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,320 Yeah so when I read about National Trust Theatre, 43 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:27,320 this is not what I had in mind at all, 44 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:31,080 this is a much older, smaller building than I expected. 45 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,440 It is very interesting. I just can't imagine 46 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:36,440 doing a drag show here. 47 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,480 It's very out the way [...] it’s quite pretty though. 48 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:43,600 Smallhythe place is a cosy Tudor cottage, just off the main road 49 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:45,520 between the towns of Tenterden and Rye. 50 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:49,240 And once home to the actress Ellen Terry and her daughter, Edy Craig. 51 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:51,480 Today I'm here to meet Susannah, who is going to tell me 52 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:55,920 more about the showbiz history behind its doors. 53 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:58,800 Hi Misty? How are you? I'm good. How are you? I'm Susannah. 54 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,000 I'm the senior house and collections officer here. 55 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,280 So welcome to Smallhythe. Thank you. 56 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,600 Right. Come through this way into the theatre then. Fabulous. 57 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:09,000 Wow. That's quite a surprise, isn't it? 58 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,440 It's a very deep stage. It takes up a lot of space. 59 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:13,600 Yeah, takes up most of the building, in fact. 60 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:14,680 Yeah. 61 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:19,600 To begin with, I think the stage was pretty much 1930s trestle tables 62 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,680 and there were benches and the stage was lit with with car headlights. 63 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:28,280 It's still quite basic, but it's a fantastic performance space. 64 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:29,440 You're going to use it. 65 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:30,480 I am, yes! 66 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:32,160 It looks 67 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:33,960 like it's been here for a very long time. 68 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:36,360 It's not something I would typically do drag. 69 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,360 It's not somewhere where you would expect drag to be, I believe either. 70 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:43,480 Um, especially our kind of drag, which is very modern and very current. 71 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:45,600 This isn't. But again, not in a rude way. 72 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:47,160 Maybe that's just the building 73 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:51,360 because Edy Craig did some really experimental theatre on this stage. 74 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:55,400 So they did some things that the audience will find really difficult sometimes 75 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:57,680 and very experimental. So, you know. 76 00:03:57,680 --> 00:03:59,880 Perhaps it's the most perfect space to do it. 77 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:02,160 do a modern drag show? [Talking over one another] Yeah. 78 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,320 Maybe it just is. 79 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,360 It's easy to picture drag as it is today, 80 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,160 but its roots go much further back. 81 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:13,160 In Shakespeare's time, it was forbidden for women to be involved 82 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:14,280 in stage performance, 83 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:16,520 which meant men and boys or seniors and juniors 84 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,280 as they were known, were called upon to play all the female parts. 85 00:04:19,280 --> 00:04:21,160 While this is done out of necessity. 86 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:24,400 They opened the doors for performers to have total freedom of expression. 87 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:27,160 This period, beginning in the 16th century, is seen 88 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,600 as a pivotal moment in the history of drag. 89 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:32,160 Does a full range 90 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:36,160 of different parts for boys to play as women. 91 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:40,000 And we know from eyewitness reports of performances 92 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:41,680 that they were wholly believed. 93 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:46,440 So if you get a letter, say, written by somebody who'd seen a play 94 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,840 like Othello, there’s somebody in 1610, 95 00:04:49,840 --> 00:04:54,360 he writes a letter about seeing Othello, and he talks about how good Desdemona was. 96 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,160 And he consistently describes her as she. 97 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:02,240 And he would absolutely have known that Desdemona was really being played by a boy. 98 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:02,960 I'm Dr. 99 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:08,080 Sophie Duncan and I'm a research fellow at Magdalen College, Oxford. 100 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:12,400 Shakespeare remains the cultural constant of the British theatre. 101 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:16,400 In Shakespeare plays, quite often our heroine dresses up as a boy 102 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,920 for reasons of expedience or safety or adventure. 103 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:23,480 We don't know what women of the time 104 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:27,160 thought in terms of their nonparticipation in the theatre. 105 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:31,640 We know that, when in 1660, So after the English Civil War, 106 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:35,800 when Charles the second is crowned king and immediately sets up 107 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:40,960 indoor theatres and gives his patronage to them, actresses do well very quickly. 108 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:44,880 I think that the opportunities for gender 109 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:50,480 play and disguise and self-expression that come with all the different forms 110 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:56,000 of cross-dressing that happen in theatre, particularly British theatre, 111 00:05:56,080 --> 00:06:01,960 have probably always been very important to people in the LGBTQ community. 112 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:06,840 In Ellen Terry's time at Smallhythe, when you look at the kind of creative 113 00:06:06,840 --> 00:06:10,720 and personal networks that her daughter and her partners 114 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:16,600 were part of, Ellen Terry herself was a real icon for queer women. 115 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:18,240 After hearing more about Ellen Terry 116 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,240 and seeing the theatre, Susannah offered to take me into the house 117 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:23,040 to find out more about the previous occupants. 118 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:24,720 Ellen and Edy. 119 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,760 The reason that the National Trust have this house is because it was 120 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:29,880 the home of the great actress Ellen Terry. 121 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:35,240 She was one of the most famous, celebrated and adored celebrities of her time. 122 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:36,840 And she was at the height of her fame 123 00:06:36,840 --> 00:06:41,200 in about the 1880s, hugely high earning with a really busy professional life. 124 00:06:41,280 --> 00:06:46,000 So she bought this house in 1899 to get away from London. 125 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:50,320 She died here in 1928, and her daughter Edy, she created 126 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:54,720 this museum as a kind of shrine in honour of her mother. 127 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:58,520 What we've got stuffed into this beautiful Tudor building is one 128 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:02,280 woman's lifetime collection, carefully curated by her daughter. 129 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:03,680 And there is so much in here. 130 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,640 We have got a huge collection, you know, everything 131 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:10,400 from chipped plates through to great grand jewels and wonderful costumes. 132 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:12,840 So it is like when your grandma dies. 133 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,000 Those jewels might go missing. Just to warn you, I am a drag queen. 134 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:16,680 Yeah, well, I'm not going to let you near them. 135 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,480 I might show you the costumes, if you're lucky. Some great shoes. 136 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:20,200 Oh, yeah. 137 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:21,840 Size six. Sure I could squeeze in. 138 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:23,400 Well I'll try. 139 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,200 Edy Craig was an influential theatre maker herself. 140 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:29,760 She lived in a trio with two other women at Smallhythe place and the women's 141 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:33,200 private lives were intrinsically linked with the creative work they did there. 142 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:35,160 So you mentioned that there were three people next door. 143 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:37,320 How did that work? What was the living arrangement? 144 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,320 So Edy Craig, Ellen Terry’s daughter, lived next door 145 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:43,360 in the priest house with her partner, Chris St John, 146 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,800 and in about 1916, they were joined by Claire Attwood, known as Tony. 147 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:49,200 They were all lesbians. 148 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:51,680 How that worked for them, we don't really know. 149 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:56,120 Edy always referred to them as her family, so it had that sort of domestic feel. 150 00:07:56,120 --> 00:08:00,120 They may Jam, they lived together in a kind of creative harmony, really. 151 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,000 This was their country place, 152 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,680 And I think it was somewhere they could absolutely be themselves. 153 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:08,520 They were constantly putting on plays in the theatre and Claire Attwood 154 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:10,320 would be creating props. 155 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,520 Chris St John would be translating something from German 156 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:16,520 and Edy would be conducting the whole affair. 157 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,360 I did speak to a very old lady who lives in the village up the road, 158 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:23,960 who remembers them coming to her Dad’s shop to buy Cigarettes and I said, What? 159 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:25,920 What did you make of them? She Oh yeah. 160 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,480 We just thought they were a bit eccentric they always wore men's clothes. 161 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:31,040 So I think people really respected them. 162 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:32,800 As well as cross-dressing in the everyday. 163 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:36,160 The trio would have also done so as part of their performances in the theatre. 164 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:40,080 For them, both creatively and personally, clothing was genderless. 165 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:42,360 Whether that was in the clothes they went to the shops 166 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:44,840 or the costumes they were wearing on the stage. 167 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:47,520 There's a little exhibition at the top of the garden, which looks at 168 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:50,520 how Edy and Tony and Chris lived. 169 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,760 But whilst we’re in the house, if you want to have a look at the costumes first. 170 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,400 Absolutely! I’d love to do that 171 00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:59,720 Susanna begins guiding me around this beautiful house, 172 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:04,400 a wonky property with little trinkets hidden around every corner. 173 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,720 From the top of the stairs will just come in here, which is our costume room. 174 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:11,240 Now, we've got over 200 costumes in storage here at Smallhythe Place. 175 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:15,360 Ellen Terry was such a celebrity and was earning so much money 176 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:17,320 that her costumes became couture. 177 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:21,480 Edy was a costumier. 178 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:23,200 She didn't produce costumes like this. 179 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:25,080 She was much more likely to tie 180 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:28,240 four scarves together and make some fabulous outfit. 181 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:30,400 But she always managed her mum's costumes. 182 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:34,160 So one of the reasons they survive as well is because Edy looked after them. 183 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:35,400 The rhinestones I using on this 184 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:39,520 here are not too dissimilar to what I would wear in my jewlery. 185 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:43,000 So it's quite interesting to think that this was, what, 1800s? 186 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:44,760 And it's the same kind of thing. 187 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:47,520 obviously it looks very different now, and it's 188 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:50,520 a lot more intricate than the jewelry and the shiny things I would wear. 189 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:52,800 But it's interesting to see similarities. 190 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:55,320 It is and the dress itself is a very shiny thing 191 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:58,440 because it has all these iridescent beetle wings sewn on it. 192 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,800 So when you step onto the stage in a costume 193 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:05,200 like that, everything's sparkling off you and, you know, 194 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:09,040 so this is kind of Victorian attempt at real bling. 195 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:11,760 It feels to me... it feels draggy. 196 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,160 I know that sounds a bit silly, but to me that looks like drag. 197 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:16,400 That’s how I envision my kind of drag. 198 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,400 It's very costumey, it's very sparkly, it's very elegant, it's very 199 00:10:19,560 --> 00:10:20,480 properly done up. 200 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:24,120 And to me that looks like a drag costume I would actually wear. 201 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:26,640 Like see you in it and I've got I've got, I've got a 202 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:28,560 we've got a copy here Perhaps you'd like to slip into later? 203 00:10:28,560 --> 00:10:32,680 I will like to borrow it. Yes. 204 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:34,920 There's so much to see in here. 205 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:35,280 Yeah. 206 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:38,440 I think sometimes people visit here, they think they in a whip round 207 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:40,840 in three quarters of an hour and they're still here 3 hours later. 208 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:41,320 It's one of those. 209 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:44,320 But we've got something really special in the garden I'm going to show you now. 210 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:48,280 Let's go for it. 211 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,720 Nestled amongst this beautiful English country garden is a little shed, 212 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:55,600 a place for creativity to blossom. 213 00:10:55,680 --> 00:10:58,600 And this little writing hut over here. 214 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,960 Well, I call it the writing hut because Chris used to write in it, 215 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:03,600 but I think they actually called it her 216 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,600 smoking hut at the time she was a chain smoker 217 00:11:06,680 --> 00:11:10,200 and it was kind of her creative space. 218 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:14,920 So in we come, 219 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:16,360 Oh, look, this is interesting. 220 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:18,600 Vesta Tilley. 221 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:23,080 So she was a male impersonator who was really big in the 1900s. 222 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:27,480 There was a lot of male impersonators, not drag kings, I guess you call them now? 223 00:11:27,560 --> 00:11:30,080 Yeah, same thing. And they were hugely popular. 224 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:33,640 There she is as well dressed as a police constable. 225 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,360 It is essentially drag. Yes. 226 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:38,760 Has there ever been drag here at all in the theatre? 227 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:41,760 Not as far as I know, although there may have been pantomimes, of course. 228 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:43,680 So the performance that we're due to do here, 229 00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:46,960 that would be the first drag show here at the theatre? 230 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:48,640 Definitely. 231 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:50,200 One of the ways in which to connect drag 232 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:53,200 early roots with modern performances we know today is through pantomime. 233 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,600 In fact, the traditional Christmas panto says a lot more about British society 234 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,600 than you might think. 235 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:01,800 If we look at things like RuPaul’s drag race, 236 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:03,640 lip synching is a big aspect of that. 237 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:05,280 Do we see that in pantomime? Not much. 238 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,400 But do we see the sequins and the glamour 239 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:12,320 and the over-the-top ness of costuming and aesthetics? Yes. 240 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,160 Does all drag do that? No. 241 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:18,360 I'm Simon Sladen, senior curator of Modern and contemporary 242 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:24,760 theatre and performance at the Victoria and Albert Museum. 243 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,080 If you look at the history of pantomime, 244 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:31,080 in the studies of pantomime, it is obsessed with gender. 245 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:32,880 I mean, absolutely obsessed. 246 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:35,800 And if you ask people to define what a pantomime is, 247 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:40,520 they will absolutely say it's where boys play girls, girls play boys. 248 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,920 It's this topsy turvy world, and it opens up an opportunity 249 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:49,400 for thinking about fluidity between genders and interpretation. 250 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,440 The dame is there not really to provide any sense of 251 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:58,200 narrative, but for the comedy 252 00:12:58,280 --> 00:12:59,760 license to play with 253 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,760 the audience, to interact with the audience. 254 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,400 I mean, arguably you could take them out of many of the shows 255 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,800 at the narrative wouldn't suffer, but it would be rather bland. 256 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:09,920 It's a family show. 257 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:13,960 But obviously the joy of a double entendre is that some people will understand it 258 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:18,480 and some won't. 259 00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:21,600 Also, is there for a great aesthetic, you know, costumes 260 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:25,360 become more and more elaborate, particularly in the mid 20th century. 261 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,360 You know, the dame has the most extravagant costumes. 262 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:32,800 We certainly track tastes and trends through the Dame's costuming 263 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:37,800 and thinking of examples such as when the punk era, 264 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,920 the Ugly Sisters often have one of their changes where they would be punks, 265 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:47,120 which obviously had a great affinity to contemporary discourse around society. 266 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:48,080 So it's interesting to 267 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:51,240 think about those relationships and how they are perceived. 268 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,280 And of course, the pantomime Dame and the Principal Boy are two 269 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:58,480 the characters which may have gone through the most evolution as society's 270 00:13:58,560 --> 00:14:01,120 ideas, thoughts, relationship 271 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,120 with gender and sexuality changes. 272 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:09,280 Today, a female Principal boy can be seen in probably 6 to 8% of pantomimes, 273 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:16,560 as opposed to almost 100% in that Victorian era. 274 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:18,320 Well, thank you so much for showing me around. 275 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:19,920 I am absolutely raring to go. 276 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,600 I'm going to have to call up my drag partner and get her down here and we'll 277 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:25,800 start planning ideas and do a show here. 278 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:30,640 Can't wait 279 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:31,720 then. 280 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,080 Turning it round 281 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:35,520 is beautiful. 282 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:37,800 It's gorgeous, isn't it? 283 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:39,800 It's stunning, actually. 284 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:41,280 Stunning. 285 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,280 It's a really, really deep stage as well as plenty of space. 286 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:48,040 Your signal most be shocking where you are It is, it isn’t great. 287 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:51,000 Right. I’ll message to then and I'll speak to you in a bit. 288 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,640 Ok speak to you soon! Bye. 289 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,600 The visit to Smallhythe Place left me feeling completely inspired 290 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:58,800 and the idea of taking to the stage and putting on a show 291 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,000 for everyone to enjoy is what really excites me about drag. 292 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:04,760 Growing up, I never really saw myself as a performer, 293 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:07,680 not in drag, not in panto, not on stage at all. 294 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,000 But I loved the glitz and glamour that came with it. 295 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,720 I remember as a young boy going to formal events like weddings 296 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:15,200 and feeling really restricted in what I was allowed to wear. 297 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:17,960 When women wear a variety of colours and accessories. 298 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:18,920 When I discovered drag, 299 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,760 I realized that this was the opportunity I needed as a kid to fully express myself. 300 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:23,720 In the world of drag. 301 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,160 There are hundreds of different styles and ways of performing. 302 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:30,400 It might involve singing, dancing, lip synching, or some comedy. 303 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,200 My style is a bit more modern and my drag partner, Miss Demeanor 304 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,200 McCall, is a little bit more the traditional old school British type. 305 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,440 Both of these styles themselves have gone through lots of changes, but looking 306 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,560 further back, drag performance has evolved far beyond Shakespeare's time. 307 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:48,560 And who knows what I might look like centuries from now. 308 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,320 It's now a few months on since I first visited. 309 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:52,760 It's show day and nerves are beginning 310 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:56,520 to set in as the crowd begins to arrive for our sold out event. 311 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,240 I literally just need to get to my dress. 312 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:01,240 I need to put my wig down. 313 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:02,560 Do you like my hair? 314 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:04,120 What time are we on now? Quarter past. 315 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:06,000 Can you necklace me up please? 316 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:07,360 It's so extra and diva-y. 317 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:09,560 Do you mind zipping up my shoes for me? 318 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:11,880 So sorry, I just can't Am I ok? 319 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:12,400 Alright head to toe? 320 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:13,120 Am I alright? 321 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,200 Gorge do I need to glue here? 322 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:18,960 I said I needed you, didn't I? Yeah. 323 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:20,280 I'm very nervous. I'll be honest. 324 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:22,720 I'm really, really nervous. 325 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:23,800 I think you're just complete unknown. 326 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:25,280 Like we're not in our comfort zone. 327 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,560 It's a very different setting, very different place. 328 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:30,240 We don't know how they're going to react to it. 329 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:34,320 You know, I think a lot of people here are like first time drag attendees. 330 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:36,800 So they might not know what to expect, 331 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:37,800 which could be good and bad. 332 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,720 You know, there's there's pros and cons to that. We’ll see. 333 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:46,440 I mean, the aim is for everyone to have a really good time. 334 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:48,720 So remember you’re doing the solo first. 335 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:50,000 Yeah. And then we’re doing dancing game. 336 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,600 Yeah, yeah. 337 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:53,480 Okay. 338 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:54,840 I'll just give terrifying. 339 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:55,880 I'm so scared. 340 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:57,480 I've never, never get scared. 341 00:16:57,480 --> 00:16:58,920 So it's just. 342 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:01,480 Crazy, Alright? 343 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:03,640 Let's do this. 344 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:10,480 HELLO Oh, I'm sorry. 345 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:15,600 Let’s introduce ourselves my name is Misty Monique hold for applause. 346 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:19,400 And I am Demeanor McCall, this is. 347 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:20,960 I can see the front row. 348 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,600 Hi, nothing to cheer about! 349 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:25,560 It's just darkness after that we can’t see you. 350 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:27,120 Pippy Longstockings in the front. 351 00:17:27,120 --> 00:17:29,720 Hello. 352 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:33,560 Can we get the lights up for a second Tom? 353 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:37,960 No! Turn them off, turn them off. 354 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:39,040 Are they still there? 355 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:42,120 Hold on, do You want to hide behind this? 356 00:17:42,120 --> 00:17:44,640 Security! Oh, 357 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:45,520 security. 358 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:45,960 Oh, no. 359 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,000 she didn’t... 360 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:51,040 Oh, no she didn't... 361 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:56,120 Oh Yes she did! 362 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:58,160 It just really fun isn’t it Yeah, you know, they. 363 00:17:58,160 --> 00:17:59,600 Just include everybody. 364 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:01,560 And we were saying sort of, if you think of Shakespeare 365 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:03,880 and all those things, it was always terribly bawdy. 366 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:04,680 Lots of audience 367 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:08,600 participation, toing and throughing, I think it was perfect for here. 368 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,320 I think it was absolutely perfect. Yeah, I loved it. 369 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:12,240 It was fantastic. 370 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:14,880 I hope they have more of them actually, it was really fun. 371 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,480 Well, I've been here many times and seen lots of different things and nothing. 372 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:20,360 Quite like This evening. 373 00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:25,400 So I was really surprised to see on the listing if a Smallhythe place, 374 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:27,800 but was really excited to come and it was really good 375 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:31,040 fun and it's just lovely to have it on our doorstep and it's brilliant. 376 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:35,920 I think they should do more of it 377 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,000 Have you had a good time tonight? Oh, 378 00:18:39,120 --> 00:18:41,840 I was invited down here back in April to look around and find out 379 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:43,760 all the history of the place and to be on this stage. 380 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:45,120 It's just incredible. 381 00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:47,560 There's so much history in this. 382 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:47,600 This barn has been here 383 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,600 for like five hundred years we've ruined all Of that history tonight. 384 00:18:50,680 --> 00:19:06,000 [Cheering] Performing at Smallhythe place was incredibly fun 385 00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:09,400 and exploring the history of drag has been a real roller coaster of emotions. 386 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:12,800 And believe me, there is still so much more to explore and find out. 387 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,880 I'd encourage everybody to get out and see as many shows as you can. 388 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,400 If going to drag show has been on your bucket list for a while. 389 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:19,760 Go and watch one! 390 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:24,120 Drag is for everyone, and I personally cannot wait to welcome you to a show soon. 391 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:25,200 Lots of love huns. 392 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:40,840 My name’s been Misty Monique. Until next time. 393 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:41,920 Thank you for listening 394 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,920 to this episode of the National Trust Podcast. 395 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,440 We've reached the end of season seven, but do look out 396 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:51,000 for some special episodes between now and when season eight begins. 397 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:55,160 The best way to do that is by following or subscribing on your favourite podcast 398 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:58,080 app and sharing a special episode with a friend. 399 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:01,200 All of our past episodes and more from our mini series can be found 400 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:05,360 at nationaltrust.org.uk/podcasts. 401 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,440 And if you have the time, we'd love to hear from you. 402 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:14,320 You can leave a review or send a message to podcasts@nationaltrust.org.uk 403 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,240 We’ll be back soon with new adventures. 404 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,480 But until then, take care and goodbye.