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related to mental health and may be activating for some viewers.
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I'm Natalie.
I'm Yolo. And this is Black Healing Remix.
The podcast.
Well, we want to talk about depression, right?
And I think, you know, I had this experience over the pandemic.
Like many of us, we were like, Ooh, I need help.
I need support.I need resources, right?
And so I called my insurance company to be like,
Hey, I need a new therapist, and I got the good insurance
so connect me with the folks.
And they were like, Are you depressed?
And I was like, I'm Natalie and I would like a therapist.
I'm confused about your line of questioning.
And she's like, ell, we're only connecting people, therapists who are depressed.
And I was like,
What about everybody else who has any kind of mental health experience?
And also, what about the people who are trying to do preventative care?
Right.
Which I was I was like, oh, I think I'm beginning
to get a little bit overwhelmed with the pandemic.
I don't too much is shifting.
I don't know what's going on.
And I'm just up in this house right?
And she's like, well, if you're not depressed, then can't get a therapist.
And I was like, Well, talk to me about how you define depression.
And she's like, Do you have this this this?
And I was like, Sure, maybe those can be factors, right?
And she goes, Okay, well, then I can connect you with a therapist.
And I was like, Talk to me about who these therapies are.
Is there a way that I can see their profiles?
Can I learn about who they are in their kind of perspective as therapist?
And she was like, No.
And I'm like, girl what?
And then I said, Well, I would like a black therapist.
And she said, Oh, we don't we don't look at race.
That's not a thing that we ask the therapist.
And I was like, Sis,
so here's the thing.
You want me to go tell my business to a person that I don't know anything
about and it frankly don't seem like you know much about either.
And this is supposed to be a therapeutic intervention
when I'm trying to do like preventative care for myself.
And I was like a really striking experience to me
because I think so many people might want support,
but the process for getting it is very, very challenging.
And so I was not in distress.
I was in desire for support, and so I could manage those kind of things.
But I was in that process.
I was thinking about all of the people who, if they were in distress,
what a god awful experience this would be.
If you are brave enough to ask for help and then you are met with,
you know, I'm sure a really wonderful person on the other end of the phone,
but who is not resourced or trained to actually know how to support people
who are in distress.
And that
was really troubling and scary and sad to me.
And I'm curious about your experiences
with depression and kind of how you think about that.
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, first, thank you for sharing that.
That's a very distressing experience.
And it's also very common for a lot of folks
when it comes to accessing therapy.
I think it's important to name that as I before I get into my story,
is that actually a therapist that is not necessarily designed for crisis care.
Right. Right.
That like you're right, if someone was in high distress, calling whatever
institution to get that care, that that medium is not going to be helpful.
Right.
And so and because there is a little bit there's so little analysis
and understanding that a part of building what they call the therapeutic alliance,
you know, the relationship between you and a therapist,
it's about their values is about who they are.
Unfortunately, many I feel like in white culture,
or dominant culture is just kind of perceived as like,
you can just feel the mold with anybody as opposed to I understand
this is a human and a social and there's so many nuances to care.
Absolutely.
But I think that, like, what happens is like the
the medical establishment tries to like, just kind of make it one size fits all.
NATALIE: Absolutely! It's an assembly line as opposed to actual tenderness and care.
Absolutely.
So that what immediately what kind of struck me.
And I just think, um,
I was thinking about
how frustrated and angry it makes me, because I know that, like,
not only have I navigated that, but so many folks I know
are trying to get care and it is so difficult
with insurance or without insurance. It's so difficult get care.
And that's what we dedicate our work to doing
And thinking about how often in society people say, now we're saying, well,
you just need a therapist.
YOLO: Yeah, I know.
And then I go, But I think you're underestimating what
that process is like and how challenging that might be for some people.
And so which is why we have the belief that it takes a variety of care
strategies, not just depending on therapy, because you might in the meantime,
while you're trying to figure out your therapy strategy,
you might need to do that yoga.
You might need to be at that Reiki art, as you might,
you know, I mean, you might need to get a massage
there might be other things that you need to do in between that process.
Absolutely.
Because treating and supporting any condition isn't just about therapy.
Right.
It has to be this a societal intervention that has to be done right.
So like
if I'm living with depression, which I am right, Like,
it's like the things that I'm navigating that help support my wellness
are not just about this one time a week, I'm with someone.
It's about actually my family, my community,
the people that have chosen and not chosen who are in my space, right?
It's about my home, the access to food. All these things influence
my capacity to show up in the world, right, and how I show up in the world.
And that sometimes we when people have all these care
strategies, sometimes we name them a diva and we say, Oh, you do a lot.
YOLO: Mm hmm. NATALIE: Right.
Not understanding
what's actually underneath that, that these are all care strategies,
not the frivolousness of like, you know, I have these particular
yo yoga pants and I have to drink this kind of, you know, like,
I think, particularly in Los Angeles, right?
Like we have this wellness culture that kind of, you know, sometimes
people think is the same as mental health and mental wellness and it sandwiches.
And then when someone is like, No, these are my care strategies, actually.
YOLO: Right, Right.
We label them as, you know, having antics and being a diva or being difficult
when it's like, no,
they're actually trying to really thoughtfully care for themselves
YOLO: and keep themselves grounded and regulated.
Like I think about all the practices that I engage in in the morning
to make sure I start initiate my day in a way that we feel grounded, right?
I'm doing my meditation. I have my sound bowl.
I pull from my oracle deck or my taro deck, right?
for a message inspirational message.
I have my different text, Buddhist texts, as well as other inspirational books.
I just pull a random page to give something to get me grounded
or rooted because I know what that if I rush into my day,
I'm just going to be scattered all day.
And so I'm trying to figure out how do I start my day with regulation,
How do I start my day with peace? What does that look like?
And that helps me as a strategy for managing my depression, right?
You asked me about my experience and I want to kind of get into that.
Before I get into that.
I want to talk about this one piece
that I think leads to this conversation I want to have.
And it goes back to an experience I had.
I was somewhere in rural Florida doing a training with BEAM,
you know, one of our black mental health, and healing justice trainings,
which is training people on how to support other black folks in crisis.
And I'll never forget on the on the PowerPoint,
we had all the symptoms of depression. NATALIE: Mmmm.
And I'll never forget this young person who might have been like 17
or 18 years old.
He rolls his hand and he said, You know what, YOLO,
This is crazy to me because I thought this is just meant being black.
All these things you have on this list, irritability, sleeplessness,
like low, like low energy, like, you know, rage.
He's like, this is like just everybody I know and myself.
NATALIE: Mm hmm.
And why I said that's important
And it was so powerful to me because it, like, made me realize in that moment
the symptoms
that we call depression are so common in our communities
that in many ways, they become invisible
and norm.
Like even the irritable irritability and explosiveness
we talked about in that workshop session, right. How that irritability,
we don't always see that as oppression.
We see that as, Oh, that's just cause they black and they special.
And no, no, no, no.
Actually, there's some other things under... NATALIE: And there's there's tremendous
life stressors as it relates to living in a black body
that absolutely impacts mental health and your ability
to engage the world in the ways in which you might want to. YOLO: Yes.
That cannot be treated.
That cannot be treated by just a one on one therapy session.
When we talk about mental health interventions
for black people in this country,
we need to talk about a 360 redevelopment, a reimagining of our world.
When you talk about access to health care, preventative health care,
we need to talk about living wages.
Can I afford my rent?
That is the economic stressor.
Are the other schools my children going to prisons?
Are they helping grow them and support them?
Do I have to am I safe in my neighborhood?
Right. Is there access to green foods and water?
We know that so many of our folks
are living in communities where there's food apartheid. Right.
And we say food
apartheid instead of food desert because we know apartheid is intentional
There are intentionally areas where black folks live,
where you could not find grocery stores within miles.
And when we use words like desert, that implies that there's a natural rhythm
YOLO: Absolutely As opposed to an intentional thoughtfulness around abandoning folks,
putting them in a place where they will have no access to the necessary resources
to be a human being and to be living and breathing and functioning.
YOLO: Absolutely.
So that's why for me,
it's important to name that like, while therapy is a great intervention
to heal our communities, whether it's depression, anxiety
or a variety of conditions, we have to look at holistic interventions
that take on all these different dimensions of how is the, how is the actual
context unwell? That's facilitating this condition in a person
And to be real, the thing that I think is so interesting is white folks know this.
YOLO: Mm hmm. NATALIE: Right.
Because when you look at really affluent and wealthy white folks,
they have so many things that support them throughout their navigation
of their daily life. Right.
I do this in the morning. I have this. I do this.
Oh, I only like this kind of tea, and I do this, and...
Oh, and I tested out a sample right?
There's all this exploration of how to live fully.
And when I think about our folks.
Right.
Regular, normal folks. Right.
Then any part of that, like, Oh, you will start with a sound bowl in the morning?
Well, how much does the sound bowl cost?
YOLO: Mm hmm.
How am I going to have that right?
And my kids got to get to school and I just got off work and I...
Right. There's all these things to navigate.
And so. So. So just the ones.
Oh, just do this one thing - that can't be the answer
because we need a whole reframe
about what care and support look like in the world.
Absolutely.
And that even getting to those care strategies in your morning
when you're already in a state of being highly disregulated
and stressed, it's hard to get to the place to create that peace.
And if you don't have a community around you
to supporting you with that right, it can be really difficult
to develop the strategies, even the strategies,
like I'm a read my Bible in the morning.
For some folks that can be a very...because like I'm panicking
about all the things I have to do today that I feel overwhelmed.
They were anxious last night when I went to sleep.
So you wake up and then you miraculously not going to be anxious about
No, of course you're going to be anxious. YOLO: Especially when it's talking about years
and years of compounded stress and intergenerational stress. NATALIE: Yes.
So I just want to talk about a little bit about, you know,
my experience living with depression and also struggling with ideations.
Right.
And for people who are watching and listening
what they ideations is, thoughts of not wanting to be here, thoughts
of wanting to harm yourself, which is very real for a lot of our folks.
One of the pieces I want to name that I think is so infuriating to me
about the ways in which our mental health industrial complex is built
is that literally when I look at the United States, I see all the ways
it is designed and built to destroy black life,
right to dehumanize black people.
All these systems historically and continually on ongoing.
We don't interrogate the systems.
We go, Oh, the status quo. Well, this is how it normally happens.
And I go, Well, that means it normally is going to continually
be problematic for black people and people of color generally.
The systems are not designed
with any kind of thoughtfulness to the reality of our daily life.
And because, like so what happens the frustrates me about that is they like
these systems are designed to dehumanize us and denigrate us.
And then when a black person says, I don't want to be here,
I don't feel like I want to be here, the response is incarceration.
NATALIE: Yeah.
Like when for for the vast
majority of black people in this country, when you call 911
if you don't have access to crisis units or other kinds of non-police intervention
which they are trying to build, you will have police come to your home.
When you said, I'm in crisis in terms of I feel like I'm a threat to myself,
they will arrest you. NATALIE: Right.
So now I am further traumatized.
Yeah.
Because it's not like the the the police that show up
are trained to support a person in a mental health crisis.
That is not what's happening.
And even if they were the actual presence of police, blue lights
literally has evidence that it triggers anxiety and black folks
because immediately we think I might be not here anymore.
And also, just think about the feeling of when you're driving your car.
If you're a person who drives a car and you see the lights come on behind you,
that immediate drop in the pit of your stomach where you're like, Oh, God.
Because you don't actually know what's going to happen.
How severe is what's about to happen? Right.
And I think about that when you're in the midst of a crisis already
and you call because you need help, which is why you called.
Right.
And then someone who, number one, is not trained to help
and also is deeply traumatized themselves, often shows up.
Now, we got the perfect training ground
for a really horrific moment for multiple humans.
And there's some literature that shows that, like,
you know, people who are living with mental conditions
are like 16 times more likely to be killed by the police.
NATALIE: Right.
So I just want a name that or hold that as I talk about my...segue way
into my story, that like the systems we have in the United States,
penalize us for being in distress but produce the distress. NATALIE: Yes.
Like, literally create... NATALIE: It's literally just victim blaming.
And this is also the beef that I have
when people talk about the challenges that they're facing.
And then our answer is an individual answer.
YOLO: Mm hmm.
And I go, It is not on individuals
to, you know, this pull yourself up by the bootstraps idea like
That ain’t real. It ain't dope and it ain't help nobody.
Right.
What does help somebody is
when people in positions of power say, I see that this does not work. YOLO: Yes.
And if it does not work for one person,
we need to replicate a system where there is never a situation where this happens.
And should it
We have protocols in place to rectify, identify and resolve immediately.
YOLO: Absolutely. That is not the system that we have.
It's not the system that we have.
(music plays)
So, you know, I think about one particular time
in which I was struggling with ideation and struggling with wanting to be here.
Right? NATALIE: Mm hmm.
And I think about that moment and what was going through my mind,
what was going through my head, what was also experiencing
in my real material life.
You know, I was on the verge of eviction.
I had went to a very prestigious school to study social work
and realized that this was not for me and felt ashamed that it wasn't for me.
I was in a relationship that the narrative I created around
the relationship was that I was not enough for this person.
And so all of these compounding stress, you know, not having money,
all those things create a space for me where I felt so much shame.
I felt so
I was so overwhelmed, like literally having the per...the landlord
and beating down the door.
Like, you know, I was so overwhelmed and so and all the narratives
and stories about,
you know, where I should be once again, “wherever there should user shame”, like
where I should be, who I should be looking on Instagram and other places
and seeing people doing things
that I just knew I had no capability and access to do and feeling
this tremendous just grief and sadness and pain.
And when I think about in that moment,
going back to it,
because I think about it, if you go back to the moment, you think
and think about what you were feeling and thinking, and I was like,
I realize now it wasn't that I want to die.
I just want the pain to stop. I want to feel
less overwhelmed.
I want to feel like
I feel like I was overwhelmed by this kind of like shadow of just pain
and and less and not enoughness and all those frameworks.
Right?
And I just wanted to stop.
NATALIE: Mm hmm. And I didn't see a way out.
I didn't see how a friend or family member could help me because no one,
no way around me seemed safe.
But definitely it seems safer because the hotlines. I had seen what happened.
It didn't feel safe to call 911.
So what would I do? You know?
And when I saw when I look back on that situation, I just think
I really want the pain to stop.
But I had no understanding of how to make the pain stop except for to
kill myself. NATALIE: Mm.
And I think
that's the reality for a lot of us
that we don't know how to make the pain stop
except for to take our lives.
Because it hurts so much.
It hurts and it aches like a displaced.
It's, like, so deep. Right?
Mm hmm.
So deeply about so much compounded trauma.
Right.
It wasn't just about like, you know, this this, this,
like couple of months of things I was navigating.
It was like, on top of that,
all the things I had to navigate as a black queer person.
Mm hmm.
You know?
Um.
That....
That's something I think about a lot.
You know? And like...
How, you know, and being honest, like, what happened in that situation was just
I had some friends who felt something was wrong, you know...making me emotional.
And that's why community is so important.
because I had I had a good friend, several friends
who were like, something's up.
And, you know, the friend came to my home
and found me in a very bad place
and stayed with me
and was present with me and didn't she didn't know what to do
except for be present with me, hold me, you know, and um...
if she had not been there, they had not come there
I don't know where I'd be.
I don’t know if I’d be here.
And so I just say that to say that like I know the pain of not wanting to be here.
And I know a lot of our folks feel that pain.
And that
you know,
people try to shame or make fun of folks for having that pain.
But that pain is real.
When you experience stuff as a
whether you're black, you're queer, your trans, you're
a woman, you're navigating all of these things
that people just expect you to push through. NATALIE: Yep.
But that pain is real.
But what I have learned that I but I'm grateful that I'm here to to know now
is that...
that I can have folks to help me.
NATALIE: Mm hmm. YOLO: That...
That knowing now that I want the pain to stop,
I do things every day of my life to kind of manage my pain.
Mm hmm. Right. Have to know that.
And building a life like this, something that I'm.
I can't think of her name right now.
Susan Taylor, who's a former chief in chief and editor at large at Essence.
She use to have these things caught “In the Spirit” at the back of Essence.
I remember when I was growing up and I used to read them a lot.
My mom would get Essence. And I remember she said, you have to...
there's a quote I used to keep.
Mmmm....
And it says, You have to build your life where everything around
you reminds you of how you are loved and how beautiful you are.
And I remember like seeing
that even after the moment coming out of, like, the ideation
and the suicide attempt and being like, my life does not make me feel that way.
You know, like nothing about my world reminds me of any even feels like this
is even possible.
And so I think that what I try to do now is not only help myself build
that world, but also help other folks, particularly our people,
build into the universe,
whatever you can, whatever small things.
I can’t stop crying, I'm sorry.
Whatever small things or big things that you can to
to make you feel loved by you.
Because I know that those small things, whether it's your best friend,
whether it's
like, you know, your sound bath in the morning, your Bible, your Koran,
whatever it is, those small things can be the things that save.
NATALIE: Mm hmm.
I'm, like, so grateful to witness
the after.
Because we know for some of our folks, there is no...
the after is our memories of them.
And I think about
all the things that have been created
because of community care,
which is what you identify as “This was the moment”, right?
That the homie was like, “Something is not right.”
And listened to that.
Because sometimes we know you go, “Something ain’t right over there.”
YOLO: Mm hmm. NATALIE: And you don't know. YOLO: Mm hmm.
And you dismiss it.
And I just think about what the world
would look like if that person dismissed it.
Right.
All of the things that you've created,
all the people that you've inspired, the new frameworks
that you've created that have, like, shifted culture for people,
have encouraged them to think about, you know,
“Am I in an environment that feels loving, is supportive?”
That you've been able to create that for so many people.
I feel really grateful to, like, hear your story
and and appreciate you being willing to share, knowing that
sharing these like, deep, intimate moments that frankly, no one else sees.
Right.
That sometimes we
we glaze over those moments
because they do elicit the tears.
They do elicit all the, like, messy life stuff.
Right.
And sometimes we want to look a certain way.
But what I've come to know is, for me,
like, these are
the moments that matter the most to me in the world, right?
Because it creates the context for who people are, who they are for real, right?
That then when we see behaviors that may not be in alignment with who
they want to be all the time, we can connect back to
There's pain.
Yeah.
And I think so much of what's happening in the world is that we
ignore that each other have pain. YOLO: Yes.
And we feel like, you know, we should be able to push through or ignore that pain.
You know, they call that John Henryism.
That's a concept like to frame what we as black folks have been trained to do.
Yeah, it's to push through the pain, but seem like the pain doesn't exist.
When someone says they're in pain
because we deny our pain, we deny theirs, too. NATALIE: Yes.
And that's why I feel like a big part of what and I've said this.
I've been you know, I had an opportunity to
be a part of some work that was working, working around the National suicide
Prevention Strategy.
And I told them I was like, look, some of this is that it's not safe
for people to talk about how they don't want to be here. Yeah.
And because it's not safe and
people are afraid of carceral implications
because there is all these incidences where people said that
and then next thing you know, they're in an institution where the psychiatrist
has so much authority and power
Has all the power.
And abuses that power and now further traumatizes someone.
Because most people there's
I don’t know the exact number, but like there's a large percentage of people
who experience being inside a psychiatric institution
as another form of trauma that increases their this suicide.
Absolutely.
I mean, I mean, it's like for a moment, let's like
actually think about I'm in crisis, I need support.
I get institutionalized.
I am in a place that I do not know.
I'm with people I do not know.
I do not know when I will leave.
And I don't know what will happen to me in the meantime.
Now, when you go
when you having a problem, you know, is that really the best thing?
It's like when we're scared. We want to feel safe.
YOLO: We want to feel safe.
And do you feel safe in a sterile environment with strangers?
YOLO: And, you know, an interesting thing
happened in the pandemic.
And I'm going to get emotional
about this piece. Um...
I'm familiar with what happens
with places where people get, you know, different codes on for them, from 50
different states and different codes from when you get institutionalized, right.
Some people with resources reached out to me
about someone who needed support, support,
and they asked me about where they could go.
And I was like, I don't really know where you would send
someone of that caliber or whatever to because I was like,
I'm used to having to send folks to places that I feel very deeply disturbed
by and perturbed by knowing what's out there. NATALIE: Yes.
And so what I did, send me down this rabbit hole where I started researching
where do the very well-to-do people go when they have a mental health crisis?
And what does that look like?
NATALIE: Well, I’ll tell you what. It ain’t the same.
And I'm so fucking pissed
in disgust at the discrepancy.
NATALIE: Oh, yeah. YOLO: At the the ways in which, like we know
if this happens to most of our folks,
where they're going is a place that's going to denigrate them
further and destroy and break their spirit.
Ain’t nobody talking in nice voices.
Ain't no juice cleanse. YOLO: Ain’t no green juice. Ain’t no green space.
Ain’t no, “We've looked at your medical history, and so we know what you're allergic to.”
“And we've created a paleo vegan cookie dough”
“Perfect diet for you.”
YOLO: None of that is happening NATALIE: No.
And the discrepancy is shocking because when people, when you
when you're being institutionalized or you're being sent
to a psychiatric behavioral health hospital, you're basically in a prison.
Like literally, the the the vendors that are used in prisons for the supplies
are literally the same vendors because of the same system
that is designed to dehumanize folks, right.
To make millions of dollars off of despair. NATALIE: Yep.
And so
seeing that, you know, so much of my conviction with BEAM
and my hope for the work that I want to continue to do in the world,
that we want to continue to do in a world, you know, all of us, is um...
building systems that are like
loving and cared for and full of care.
Right.
Where someone goes through what I went through
and what happens after and where and when and when someone comes to support them.
Like you're taken to a place that feels loving, that feels easy,
that feels caring, that is really listening to you and seeing you.
I know that's possible
because I've seen what the fuck these other people who have money have.
Oh, absolutely.
YOLO: And I know... They get warm blankets and juice cleanse.
I mean, it's like I'm like I'm trying to go. Do they have a vacation package?
Because I'm trying to go. Listen, it's cute.
I like the linens.
I'm trying to be there.
I want the beautiful...chime.
Everything. Wake me up. I want all of it. Okay?
And we recognize that most folks will never get to experience
that kind of care unless we create a world where that is a priority.
YOLO: And where that is a standard. NATALIE: Yes.
Where we start, we stop criminalizing people
for being, having conditions and being in distress.
That's what, that's of the part.
The core of it is that so much of Western psychiatry and psychology is
pathologizing and shaming people who would not get able to produce
the way we need them to produce.
NATALIE: Yes YOLO: You can't be a good producer.
You can't produce.
Well, okay, we will give some medicine to fix you
so you can produce more or we're going to discard you.
NATALIE: Yes. YOLO: That’s essentially what happens.
And what I always say about and I feel like
this is so deeply connected to abolition and prison and all of these things is
that prison
and institutionalization does not actually help the human being.
What does is remove them from being your problem, much like
when we throw trash in the garbage can
and then we put the barrel on the curb.
Now it just and then they come and they take it
and then it just goes to a landfill.
And when the landfill is too full, they put it in the middle of the ocean.
And when it's too full there, they ship it to a country that we don't care about.
Right.
Like it didn't actually disappear from the planet.
I'm confused why humans don't get this at this point.
None of this shit disappears just because we don't like it.
YOLO: Yeah.
And so the call is if we don't like what's going on in the world,
what are we going to do about it in our daily lives?
And if we're so attached to having a Bentley and so attached
to being cute, we ain’t ‘bout to fix nothing and we're all going to be in shambles.
And I'm not here for it, you know what I mean?
And I think when we sit in community, we realize
most of us are not actually here for it.
We want the world to look different.
But are we brave enough to hold a different vision for what's possible?
YOLO: Absolutely. Absolutely.
And that's the piece.
And that's the piece like another world as possible for care for folks living,
navigating depression,
navigating borderline personality disorder, navigating schizophrenia.
And I think it's important to name them because I think that like one,
I understand the tricky relationship that black folks have to diagnosis.
Diagnosis. Excuse me.
Like, on one hand, you know, when you have a diagnoses,
we know these criminal
the criminal legal system will use that against you
to further penalize you and harm you.
Like well she know she had anxiety as opposed to like she was in distress.
He was he was navigating pain.
That's not used.
That's not the framework. Right.
It becomes that piece.
And so it is when people are comfortable enough to say depression,
borderline personality, schizophrenia,
not only are we taking pushing back against the shame,
we're also like recognizing that we're also, unfortunately
putting ourselves at risk in the system to exploit that against us,
which is why we got to be tricky with diag...gotta be easy with diagnosis.
We can't be thrown around diagnosis or they bipolar. Don't throw that around.
Because you don't know what our folks have been through who are living
with bipolar in terms of navigating their safety.
Their creating love and intimacy for themselves
when you use terms like that casually.
And I want to say one of the things that we always talk about
is that safety is a communal responsibility.
That each of us
the way we show up, the way we communicate, the way we engage
other folks, is an indicator of what safety means in a space.
And if you are not contributing
to the safety, you are contributing to the harm.
And we have to be so clear about that.
What are you actually doing to make sure that women are safe?
What are you actually doing
to make sure that trans folks are safe, that folks with diagnosis are safe?
What are you doing?
Because just sitting there being like, Oh, that's not my business, that's not my
that ain't it
and it’s creating a world where everybody feels isolated. YOLO: Yes.
And that's such a
I mean, that's really the big part
of our Black Mental Health and Healing Justice peer support training.
Right.
You know, when I remember when I when we when we were creating this training
together and people were like, why would you need that?
You know, what would that mean?
And I was like, No, because every day
black folks need to have more skills and tools and resources and understanding
about how to support each other and themselves.
We need to be able to diag...
Not diagnose, be able to identify.
YOLO: Yes, yes, yes.
What a symptom of these different things are.
So that you could go, Oh, this actually might be something more meaningful.
YOLO: Yes. Than just so-and-so got an attitude, right?
If your auntie got an attitude for the last 25 years,
she don't just have an attitude. Something's going on. YOLO: Yes.
And so who's going to help her figure out?
And and also recognizing that we have a bunch of different tools, right?
Yeah.
To help people figure out what's the best way to navigate this and support.
(music plays)
That's why that training is so important to me.
Like, you know, like I say, for folks who are watching or listening.
Black Mental Healing Justice peer support training built in 2016
got a lot of naysayers.
NATALIE: Well, we always had naysayers. YOLO: Naysayers about like why?
You know, they're like, why are you training barbers?
This is before the whole mental health wave we're in now right?
So I'm talking to community activists, big mommas, parents, teachers, coaches,
anybody on the street who want to come in
and they were like, this is this is a make any sense.
And one of my greatest like
one things I'm really proud of is that we had that,
you know, three year evaluation when we hired that firm
to really go interview people and say, are you still using the three years later?
Is this even helpful?
And people saying, this has changed the way I think about things.
It is still influencing my life. I'm still using these tools.
I'm still trying to hold on to this framework.
I read that book you all are saying,
and that means a lot to me because I know that...I might get emotional.
I know from the
things they share with me that it's it's having the intended impact
of like helping to shift and create more love and healing
because that's that's at the end of the day, like, you know,
you can call it mental health, you can say mental health, healing justice.
At the end of day, my work is to help black people feel more loved.
Help all of us feel more loved.
And I want to just like...you're making me misty eyed
and my makeup is so cute that I just don't I cannot continue to go to the tears.
However, um...
I want to give you your flowers because,
you know, you and a group of other folks created
these really brilliant
curriculum that we share into the world with our folks.
But I think additionally,
one of the
brilliant things that you did from the beginning with this institution
was trust your gut
and having a pulse on what our folks needed.
And I think that's one half of it. Right?
But the other pieces and then you verified and validated
that what we were doing was significant statistically, right?
That we have the receipts that say, actually the work we're doing
is innovative, actually does make an impact on the daily
lives of the people who come to our trainings
and who understand this, and not just from an intellectual perspective.
Because we also always want folks to be embodied
in the things that we're talking about.
That it’s not just about intellectualizing mental health,
but about going, okay, now here's this case study.
YOLO: MM hmm.
NATALIE: Now, if this were the situation, what would you do right?
Being able to process through with a group of people to figure out,
Okay, how do we think about this and what did we maybe miss
and how could we do this differently?
And I think there's so much brilliance in the design of so much of our work
and that we're constantly being innovative,
which I, you know, I obviously get to be a part of thinking about
how do we think about this different in a whatever post-pandemic world is. Right?
But thinking about how do we continue to develop and and also
that we don't have a thought around who a healer is or is not.
That we're that we don't
discount the folks in our community who do heavy lifting.
Come on now.
Now, in terms of stabilizing our communities,
we recognize that beauticians and barbers and community activist
and the homie around the corner...
we recognize that everybody is doing something.
That's an important piece now. I’m really glad you brought that up
because like...we like, because we all have healing work to do
We all, when we're all engaged and doing our little part
Doesn’t mean that like we all got to be therapists, right?
Honey, everybody don't be a therapist. But it's not your job.
But it's about like in my role as a barber and my role as a teacher.
How do I create space for for wellness, for for affirmation, for care,
for affirmation of the different ways all the people in my life will show up
for supporting other boundaries, supporting love.
What do I do from where I'm at? Whether I'm the camera person,
whether I'm a photographer, whether I'm a gardener, how do I do that?
And when we start thinking like that, we're like, Oh,
now all of a sudden we've got a whole village of folks
who all are like, Oh, Ben,
you know, you saw Susie, you had to go check on Susie.
You know, we're all now doing this collectively,
which is what is ingrained in our DNA as black people.
NATALIE: It's always what we've done. YOLO: As descendants of Africans, right.
That is a part of who we are.
And so it's about to me, it's about some reclamation
of some of our collectivism away from this model that says that only these
you send somebody away to get that done and you ain't responsible.
Mom, dad, uncle, cousin, whoever about how you show up with people. You know?
(music plays)
And so um...
I just, I just, I...
have a lot of feelings on the topic, but I think it's so important to say to
all our folks, in particularly, like I'm thinking about now and this moment where
so many attacks on trans and queer folks
on trans and queer kids
So many, you know,
black folks, young, of all ages who are struggling with wanting to be here.
You know?
I really hope
I want you to know
that I know what it feels like not to want to be here.
That there is nothing wrong with feeling like you don't want to be here.
That is a feeling that is legitimate and hard, but real.
That what you that
you are not wrong or bad because you can't push through
because you ain't got it together right now.
That's not. It's...nothing wrong with you.
And that
there are ways to help alleviate the pain.
There are people who who can support you.
There are practices.
I just want our folks to know that.
I want you to know that we built a whole institution
to help our folks know that.
And if you are listening to someone, if you have someone in your life
that's grappling with that, I want to invite you to think about
how you can be more caring and supportive, even if it's just being a listening ear.
Some of the most powerful interventions people have done for me around
my depression has not been, Oh, I came and did CBT and DBT with you...
No, no, that wasn't...
It wasn’t those pieces. Those are interventions,
mental health interventions, people who are not familiar.
Some of the most powerful interventions I've done, and even I've had said
that I've done for other folks that have been like, “Wow, really powerful.”
And it's one, I know from this one kid in Atlanta years ago struggling
and he said,
Can you come play video games with me and just sit on the porch with me?
Because I was really worried about it.
And that was against like what I was supposed to be doing.
NATALIE: Policy was broken. YOLO: Policy was broken.
And, you know, like, that's what it is, what it is.
But he's still here.
We got to break some of these policies and fight
against these systems to reimagine care, to make sure our folks are good.
Because if I had been like, you know what, no,
I can't do sit on the porch with you.
I can't do that because that's not my job.
Like my job is to support your well-being.
So I'm finna suck at Mario Cart for an hour because I am not good at it.
I know you...it wasn’t good.
Because if somebody called me and said, can I play video games
I'd be like, ah damn, I’m ‘bout to lose bad. Bout to lose bad.
But I would do it.
NATALIE: We gon’ be there.
YOLO: Because sometimes you need the presence and I get that.
And so I want to invite you.
If you are supporting someone that you care about,
you see someone to just practice, presence, practice listening.
And that that in of itself is sometimes so much and most times enough.
NATALIE: And most times enough.
Yeah, yeah.
Right.
Just knowing that somebody will be with us through the thing and that they will say
I text my best friend this morning and I said, tell me I can do it.
And she said,
not only can you do you not only can you do it,
you can do anything you want to do whenever you want to do it.
And I just think about like, that's community care, right?
Is sometimes just saying, hey,
like, I don't I need something and I don't know what it is,
but will you be with me while I find it?
And like, what if that's the way we showed up with each other?
YOLO: Mm mm mm.
And so to anyone who's listening,
if you are in this moment, because we've been there,
we've been there, we've been there, if you are in this moment
where you're going, I don't know if I should be here anymore
I want you to know not only should you be here, you are worthy
to be here, that the world is better because you're here.
The world is better because you are here.
And there are folks working to make this world
more livable for us to make it worthy of our presence.
Because there is...
there is so much
that our folks deserve that we don't have.
And and I'm not okay with that.
I'm not okay with it.
So we have been crybabies.
We've been the crying babies.
I want to say one piece too, because I feel like this comes into play, too.
And I've been in this place where I've struggled
This nuance
now like, sometimes we don't
have it to give.
And for me,
there are just moments I don't have it to give.
And what I've had to do for me is to make space around
me, to have other people to give, to help people.
But I'm like, I can't.
I don't have because I feel guilt
that we can't be all things to all people all the time.
And so for me, it's important to build a network as we have done.
I now have, because maybe I'm struggling that day.
I don't have it.
But here I'm going to make sure you get to someone who can give it to you,
who can support you. That's how we build community care.
It's like, you know what?
I'mma drive you down
to talk to pastor because I don't have it.
I’mma drive you down to talk to big mama, because I don't have it.
But I care about you. NATALIE: But here's what I could do.
This is what I can do is what I can do,
because I may not know how to do that, but maybe I know how to make you a pot
of greens.
Mm hmm.
It's about. It's about.
Can we contribute something?
Yes, exactly.
But we don't have to have all of the answers.
We don't have to know all of the things.
But what do we know?
What do we have?
And do we have a willingness to offer it to our community,
to folks we love with the hope
that it can improve something, right?
I don't always have to have the answer
But I have to have the willingness, I believe, to be in community,
to manage myself in a way that when I see people struggling,
I see that as distress and not as attitude, not as rejection,
but that I actually see, oh,
if you showing up this way, oh, what's happening?
And that I am a person who people can check in with. YOLO: Yes.
Right.
That I am a safe space that where I am because I'm there
It is now safer.
And I think about what if we all were just 1% more of that?
YOLO: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. NATALIE: Like we have 1%.
Could we do that?
But it's not, you know, I think even safety is one piece of it now
that but I would say one thing that like, you know,
being your friend, being your partner, collaborator, coconspirator,
on many projects, I think that like what I experience from you
is you invite folks to be brighter.
Like you come into space and say, Here, look at my light.
I want to see, what’s your light? Show me your light.
And it encourages folks.
And even when folks are like, I want to shine, they're excited
about the past because you give that you give the invitation to shine,
to be bolder.
And people need that because know they don't get invited.
A lot people don't get invited.
Baby sometimes them invitations is dry! And I'd be like, Is there a party?
Should we make one? Let's do the thing.
So that's just one piece is giving you your flowers that you consistently
do through your art, through your teaching
your facilitation, your peer coun... all those things that you do
Is you invite folks to shine and you invite women, black women to shine.
You invite black men to shine, to show up.
You invite all of us.
And so I hope you hold that and know that and that we see you shining.
And then we're like, I want to shine like that.
That means so much to me.
(music plays)
So this is a this has been an episode.
I'm wondering what affirmations you are thinking.
If you have any affirmations to close us out
for our time together.
I'm thinking about that...
Yeah, that's what I want to affirm.
I love that. I want to affirm that...
I want to affirm that we have already, as black people,
as African folks across the world, reimagine the world
when they told us that it will never be the color section will always be there.
When they told us
that gay folks can never get married, when they told us all these things.
And guess what?
We said no, we get to fucking re-imagine
and we can fucking do this better than you've done it.
And I tell everybody who is struggling with the mental health industrial complex
with these systems, guess what? We get to reimagine it.
We get to tell them that, no,
we don't get your tired ass, corny ass, empty pathology based systems.
We're not interested anymore.
We can do better.
We can be more loving and more imaginative,
and we're going to do it together.
And the tea is we been doing it.
And so now let's systematize it.
Let’s stop accepting mediocre things when we know what we are actually worthy of.
Yeah. Thank you, my friend.
Thank you, I love you.
I love you too.
Um, y'all don't want to clap?
Kidding.
I'm kidding.
OFF CAMERA: I know they want to go right into a clap because I want to know the energy
OFF CAMERA: Beyond..
OFF CAMERA: I was doing it a disservice just by saying, Oh, uh,
OFF CAMERA: I'm kind of jumping in because
OFF CAMERA: this is some special me,
OFF CAMERA: because I've had moments where I didn't know what I was feeling.
OFF CAMERA: You know, like, maybe you
OFF CAMERA: haven't figured out what's
OFF CAMERA: I remember just calling my wife now.
OFF CAMERA: We were separate at the time, but I remember calling her like,
OFF CAMERA: but I don't know what's going on right now,
OFF CAMERA: and it scares me, you know?
OFF CAMERA: So this episode was the one for me,
OFF CAMERA: and I appreciate that.
(music plays)
Oh, hey, what's up, everybody? This is Yolo, and I'm here
back again with some more tools that we can use for our healing journey.
And this time I want to talk about books.
Sometimes we may not be ready for therapy.
Or may not feel comfortable
going to a peer support or healing circle,
but books can be a great segue way to help us learn about our healing,
to learn about wellness
and learn about mental health, and just engage us as we continue to grow.
So I have some recommendations here.
Our first recommendation is Homecoming.
It's by Dr. Thema Bryant.
It’s a great book for someone who's looking to begin
exploring that healing journey.
Also have a classic, particularly for men and masculine folks,
The Will To Change
Men, Masculinity and Love by the incomparable Bell Hooks.
Check it out.
My Grandmother's Hands is a classic.
You will find a lot of healers who want to talk about this book.
It has a really great opportunity to think about the body,
talk about the history of trauma and wellness in our country.
By Resmaa Menakem.
Definitely recommend this one.
And we also have... Tarana Burke and Brené Brown's anthology
You Are Your Best Thing, which features a whole plethora of amazing black authors,
activists and writers, including me, it’s a little bit selfish.
And last but not least, an honorary mention that I only mention
because this is an exceptional book for those who really want that critical
systematic lens and approach to mental health.
Dr. James Davies, who is not a black person
but wrote a really amazing book called
Sedated: How Modern Capitalism Created Our Mental Health Crisis.
If you want to go hard, you want to check this book out.
These are some of our recommendations.
You can find them and more at BEAM.community