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Welcome to the aggressive life. Let's see if you can name that movie. They may take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom! Oh, my goodness. God bless America, or actually God bless Scotland. Braveheart is one of my favorite movies of all time. What is there not to like? Epic speeches, intense battles, a love story, kilts and blue face paints. Guys mooning each other. Oh, it's wonderful. Come on. With us today is the man responsible for dreaming up this cinematic masterpiece. actually, I don't think it's mooning each other. I think they're showing each other the bird. Isn't it the beginning of the, the opening of their kilts there? Tell me, have you- I haven't seen it that recently to remember. Yeah, they're on the field of battle. Well, we're gonna find out a little bit. Okay, we are. Yeah, they're on the field of battle against England and they kind of open up their thing. I don't think they're mooning. I think they do the bird. Anyway, we'll get verification because it's been a couple of years since I've seen it. I like to remember it the way I like to remember it. So after- Taking a trip to Scotland to learn more about his family roots, Randall Wallace discovered the legend of the medieval Scottish patriot William Wallace. Unfortunately, no, they're not related. 10 years later with his back against the wall, he started writing Braveheart. His last attempt to get a screenplay produced, and this time, it worked. His screenplay got the attention of Bell Gibson. who went on to produce, direct, and star in the film, and the rest is history. It earned over $200 million, was nominated for 10 Academy Awards, including Best Original Screenplay, and has become an enduring fan favorite ever since. I'm sure those numbers need to be updated. Well, we're gonna ask him about that because that seems low to me. And Wallace's resume doesn't end there. He went on to write, direct, and produce the historical drama, The Man in the Iron Mask. and the popular Vietnam War film We Were Soldiers. He wrote Pearl Harbor, directed Disney's Secretariat, and he is currently working with Mel Gibson on a sequel to The Passion of Christ, all about the events surrounding the resurrection. Dirk, is this gonna be a five hour podcast? It probably could be. Because I'm looking at all these, I'm going, I gotta dig into all of these. Oh my goodness, Secretariat. Have you seen Secretariat? Haven't seen it, no. Oh, dude, I know you think, well, it's Disney. It's a horsey thing. It's kind of like a little girl movie. No, it's great. It's fantastic. Beyond Movies, Randall is a New York Times bestselling novelist. He's composed a hymn that was used to President Reagan's state funeral. He's the co-founder or the founder of Hollywood for Habitat for Humanity. And he's a black belt in karate. Welcome to the aggressive life of true Renaissance man, Randall Wallace. Oh my gosh. But first of all, let's start right there. It seems like 200 million is too small of a number. That movie's made more than 200 million bucks, right? It made more than that in Europe alone. Yeah. And DVD sales and video VHS sales and all that were way higher than that too. Although its American opening, box office opening was... was not as large as we expected. It actually had three different releases because the movie was almost three hours long and so we weren't catching the traction of the box office and they pulled it after its first release and then released it again near awards time. But it did huge numbers in Europe and massive numbers in terms of aftermarket sales. Well, my first... exposure to it was, I just moved to Cincinnati to start a church. And I was living in an apartment, me and my wife, and at that point, two kids. And there was an old lady and her wheelchair-bound adult child living beneath us. And we would see them and Jeannie and say hello to her and all that stuff. And one day I was coming in. I think she saw that I had a VHS tape. that I had rented from the local Kroger grocery store. I said, oh my gosh, have you seen Braveheart? I said, no. Oh, it's wonderful. And I'm thinking to myself, I do not need to see some movie about knitting or Braveheart, like somebody bravely asking a woman out on a date or something. I'm like, oh, it's just wonderful. Scotland and swords. I looked at her, Scotland, swords? And I just went, OK. And you like, OK, I just registered it. And then I went down to the store at some point in the future. And I saw this with my son, I saw Mel Gibson, a guy that the cover had him with blood in his face and a sword. And I thought, all right, this has to be half decent or at least worth me a world. And I was blown away, utterly blown away. This is called the aggressive life. We like going into things where people take risks or push things. Randy told me I can call him Randy. See, all the film credits say Randall, but I'm calling him Randy. So Randy, take it, because he said I could, just so you know, I'm not that much of a jerk. So Randy, take us back, like, take us back to how the screenplay came into being. You mentioned you have some failures before that. Just tell us the story. Well, the journey of Braveheart and my own journey, they, this, The story of Braveheart just matches my life. I think that's, for me, that's why it worked. I was a singer-songwriter. When I was in college, I went to seminary. I majored in religion in college. I had a hit record when I was in college, a local hit, and that made me dream that maybe I could have a career doing something creative. And honestly, Brian, and I know you relate to this, I felt the calling to serve God, but I didn't have a sense that was in the ministry. And I was torn because my friends in school were going to go hold the hands of the dying, and they were going to pastor churches, they were going to teach people to plant trees in places where they needed them. They were going to do that kind of work. And I had the opportunity to go off to... to pursue a career as a singer-songwriter in Nashville. And I felt I was leaving them behind. And one of my friends said to me, this is your calling. And if you don't follow, we're going to kick your butt. And I named my first son after him. And I had a meeting with my pastor at the church where I grew up. And he said, do you feel the call to be a pastor? And I said, no. no, but I know it's the greatest calling anyone could have. And he said, no, it's not. The greatest calling anyone could have is the calling God has for you. And I left not sure that this was my calling, but I left to pursue that with the love and support of people that mattered the most to me. I wasn't having success in music. I came to California, I met a woman and got married. We had a son on the way. And before the baby came, we decided we would take a trip. And she had ancestors who were LDS. And they knew all of the history, I mean, the Mormons, you know, research, all of their genealogy. But she knew her ancestry, and I didn't know mine. And so we took a trip. and spent most of our savings to do it. And we were walking into Edinburgh Castle and there was a statue of a man named William Wallace. And I said to one of the guards there, a tough guy in a kilt, and I said, who is this William Wallace? And he said, a greatest hero. And I thought, and I'm elbowing my pregnant wife going, greatest hero, honey, Wallace, honey. And I said to the guy, so was he an ally of Robert the Bruce? Because Robert the Bruce's statue was on the other side of the entryway. And this guard said, well, no one will ever know for sure, which, of course, are magic words for a writer. But our legends say that William Wallace may have been betrayed by Robert the Bruce so that Robert the Bruce could himself become the king. Now, I knew Robert the Bruce was the greatest king in Scotland. And in that moment, honestly, Brian, it was like hearing that St. Peter and Judas were the same individual. I thought in that moment, what if there was something so noble in the life and the death of William Wallace that it transformed Robert the Bruce from being the kind of man who would betray his country's greatest hero? into the kind of man that could be his country's greatest king. It's that transformation. And I felt like I was struck by lightning. At the same time, when you have an experience like that, you say to yourself, am I somehow just dreaming this up? Am I wanting it to be true? Am I, because you're all alone in that experience. And honestly, I know that Google says that I'm not related. I am absolutely convinced I'm a descendant of William Wallace. And the thing is, I can't prove it, but nobody can prove that I'm not either, because no one knows whether William Wallace had children, but I've had dreams of him coming to me. I had a dream when we were making the movie, when he knocked on my door and I opened the door and he was standing there looking at me, telling me I had to do a good job. So it's hard to convince me. In the dream, did he look like Mel Gibson or the statue that you saw in the place? He did not, which was part of why the dream felt so real to me. He was floating from having ridden through fire. And he was looking at me and he was saying, Randall, why did you choose this guy to play me? And I said, because I believe in him and I'm doing my best. And he said, your best is what you must do. Oh my gosh, I'm gonna start crying here. It was, I mean, I, you know, I, I opened my eyes and I was lying in the bed, but in my dream, I had been lying in the bed and heard a knock on the door and went to the door and answered it and saw him and then went back and lay down on the bed. So it was as real as a dream can be for me. Wow. Yeah, I'm more open to those kinds of things than ever before. You know, was it, Was it a vision that God put in you and you're dreaming? Was it God sending an angel who took the form of the, what I'm inspired by is that you chose to hear that and see that and just assume I should take action. Just assume like, this is it. I got to go. That's powerful. Well, I have, it's interesting that you say you're more open to that than ever before. Me too. And I'm not sure what's going on. When the pandemic started, I decided I was going to read the Bible start to finish. I had open time in the morning and I grew up a Baptist, so we read the Bible every day since I was 10 years old, but I'd never read it all the way through. Now I've gone through it three times, start to finish. And every time I do, I see something new. I think because it transforms me. Each time I read it, I become a different person. And now I'm reading it from that place of having been changed. And it keeps changing me. And the stories of angels have become much more profound for me. Now I see those stories. And I think I have a sense of what that means. And the first thing they always say is, don't be afraid. Yes. And we are in this time when all we are fed is fear. And the angels come to say, not only don't be afraid, but it's like, I've got you. I'm here for you. I will fight for you. That's become more real for me. I know there's listeners, especially younger listeners, who this isn't part of their lexicon of movies that they've seen, or maybe. maybe female listeners, but even female listeners, it's a great love story. It really is. There's a number of different layers to it. So I want to get the most out of our stuff for people, even who haven't seen the movie. If I could, I'll just give everybody just a brief overview. This won't ruin anything for you. Actually, I guess it'll ruin the first 20 minutes for you, but it, I think it's worth it. So William Wallace has a lover. She gets killed. England is not happy with Scotland. England is trying to put Scotland down and subvert them. And any time they see somebody having something that's good, any time they're getting any little level of power, they come and eliminate it. And so this guy loses his bride, just rallies Scotland against the cause of England. And that's basically the whole movie. Well, not the whole movie, but it's what it is. I'm curious. I've never been involved in writing a screenplay. What was the process of writing the screenplay? Did it just fall together or did you write it and then Mel Gibson came along and said, we're gonna change this or, you know, how does that work? So I knew I had come across this story and I knew that it was calling to my soul. It's like being struck by lightning and understanding that. something has called to me and my soul has to answer. But I also, and I knew that wasn't gonna go away. I knew I couldn't run from it. And I didn't feel ready to respond. I didn't feel together. For one thing, I had a child on the way and I wasn't sure how I was gonna pay for the baby formula and the baby blankets I needed to work. But also I needed to learn more. in my craft. And I reached a point, which goes back to your earlier question, I reached a point in my life in which I thought I was going to lose everything because I'd had a long-term contract in television. And because I had that contract that promised me an income, I felt that it was safe to buy a home for my sons and my wife. and remodel that home because I had this long-term contract. And then there was a writer's strike, and the company suspended my contract. And during the strike, the company I had the contract with began to die. And when the strike was over, I was near bankruptcy. I had all sorts of bills. I had no prospects. I had no job. And I was knotted up. And I got down on my knees, which was the only place I knew to go. And I prayed this prayer. And it was, Lord, I, what I'm most concerned about is my sons. Because when I was the same age they were, my father had a breakdown. He had lost his job and he had come apart, been in the hospital. And it was the most terrifying thing in my life. And my sister and I were farmed out to relatives. We lived in a house with no indoor plumbing. So I said this prayer, that maybe the best thing for my sons is not that they live in a house in California with a swimming pool and a tennis court and fancy cars. Maybe they'll learn more if they live in a tiny little house, but that house was full of love. And our parents taught us how you get up when you're knocked down. They taught us faith. And if that's what God wants my sons to learn now, then help me bear it. But if I go down in this fight, help me just go down, not on my knees to Hollywood, trying to sell Hollywood what Hollywood says it wants. Let me go down with my flag flying, fighting for what I believe. And I stood up and went back to my desk and started to write again. And without that experience, every man dies, not every man really lives. They may take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom. Those words would have never come to me. those moments would have never happened. You penned that, you didn't quote somebody, that came out of your creativity. Say that again, say that again, so good, say it again. They may take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom. And every man dies, not every man really lives. In fact, Brian, it's funny because it's on the wall of the Air Force Academy in Colorado. They may take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom. And under it, it says William Wallace. William Wallace never said that. It's Randy Wallace. Randy Wallace said it. But, but the thing is, of course, to get your ego out of that process. You know, I've never had the first part of that singing. Every man will die. Not many will live. Yeah. Every man dies. Not every man really lives. Sheesh. Yeah. Damn. Yeah. Wow. And honestly, in that moment, I can vividly recall sitting at my desk, coming to that moment when the queen or the future queen says to him, just give in, swear allegiance to the king, get through this time if you can live. And where I was with that was the thought of. I mean, there are Roman emperors, there are letters from Roman emperors talking about how to deal with Christians, saying, these people deserve to die. If you go in and you say to them, all you have to do is just say, you don't believe this stuff and we'll let you live. And they would not give in. They would just say, then you're gonna have to kill me because this is what I believe. And I thought, William Wallace would be dead anyway, now 700 years later. So he had the choice of what am I going to be true to now? What are the true words for me now? And I truly live by being faithful to my heart. And that was what my first meeting with Mel, I wrote the script, I sent it to him, didn't hear, didn't hear. Then my agent called me and said, are you sitting down? And I said, no. And he said, well, maybe you ought to sit down. Mel Gibson wants to have breakfast with you the next tomorrow morning. He was the only guy who sent the script to from the very beginning you wanted him? Yeah, yeah. He was the only one that I could imagine had the courage and the masculinity and the force to play the role. He was the only one I could see. And it's a strange place to be when you think there's. There's only one that I can see that will make this work, but it was Mel. And I walked around the neighborhood, Brian, and I'm a praying man, and I prayed sincerely God would not let me kiss his butt. That was my prayer, that if I would try to say to him what I thought he wanted to hear rather than what I believed was true, then nothing I'd written in the script was really true. And no value, I had no value to him, to the world, to myself, to God. If I fell into this worship of the celebrity and like I will say whatever you want to hear me say, like no, I will say what I believe is true. And we sat down at the breakfast table the next morning and I was like a tent revivalist, I leaned over the table and I said, listen, every movie has a message. whether it wants to have a message or not. And the message of most movies is the guy with the biggest biceps or the cutest dimples or the greenest money or the bluest eyes, he's the one that gets the girl. This movie says, if you're faithful to your heart, even if they cut it out of your chest, you prevail. Now that's the movie I wanna make. You wanna make that movie, I'm your man. You don't wanna make that movie, you need to say no. And everybody at the table went, Like, how dare you talk like that? But Mel leaned forward. Everyone leaned back. He leaned in. Wow. Yeah. Come on. Oh, this is so inspiring, Randy. It's just so inspiring. Because we could take a look at your life or this picture, and some of us would just think, well, there was just a block of. rich people or very creative people and the studios pulled the strings and the this and that on that. Those folks came along eventually, but this started with a person, you being moved and aggressively stepping into something when you really had no back backdrop, backstop. Man, that's good. You said that this, this matches your life. How is this? How did this story match your life? Well, in that I was I was at that time in my life where William Wallace was. I was basically naked when it came to security, finances. When he's standing on the battlefield and I thought through this about how I was going to write the story, I look for those moments. I love the title of... aggressive life, of being aggressive. I thought, okay, where do you get to that place when you're not just passive and waiting for things, where you're stepping forward, but it requires stepping forward in faith? And when I came to the scene of thinking of William Wallace in front of 2,000 Scots who are outnumbered, at least three to one, what do you say to them? that gets them to stay on the battlefield. And the central message for me, as William Wallace as a leader was, all the rest of you may run away, I will not. I'm gonna fight, this is where I draw the line. This is where I fight or die. And Braveheart, writing Braveheart was where I was at that exact place myself. I thought I've got one more screenplay to write before I have to. find some other way to feed my family. And if I'm gonna do that, I'm gonna write what I wanna see. I'm gonna write what I want my family to see. Yeah, this is just so rich. The movie is so meaningful to me because when it started off, I was drawn to the, just a different vibe. I'd never seen a vibe that was Scotland That whole heritage, that was mesmerizing. And then as I said, the first 20 minutes, it's not really moving forward. You're going to get it really quick anyway. Many of us watch a movie four times, and it's great every time. But I'll just give it for this part. His fiance slash wife gets murdered. And then to me, it's, oh, this is going to be a vengeance movie. I like vengeance movies. I love vengeance. I really do. And there is an amazing vengeance scene in there. The greatest vengeance scene perhaps in movie history when he walks into that muddy fort with all those English guys and he's pretending like he's given up and he's surrendering himself. And of course, he doesn't surrender and they wish he would have surrendered. But then it goes beyond, like, deep themes. Like, you're right. He dies to himself. Jesus says, if any man come after me, let him pick up his cross and follow me daily. That means carry around your lethal injection. That means when everybody believes one thing, if you get crucified for it, that's what I expect. That means if everyone has an opinion about sexuality, everybody has opinion about politics, everybody has opinion about this, whatever it is, and just because the majority opinion, it doesn't matter. What matters if it's right and you pick up your cross and that's it. And then like, You got men being called to a higher level. I can't watch the battle scenes without crying. Like, oh my gosh, there are men who want a purpose and would lay down their lives. And the best they have is video games. The best we have is our Jeep project in the garage or something like that. And I can go on and on and on and on about the things. I tear up over and over and over again because it's transcendent themes. Fascinating to me too that the first person to urge you to watch Braveheart was a female, an older woman. Yes. I realized a phenomenon early on. We were in the editing room, Mel and I with the editor. And initially Mel had sort of wanted to be left alone to put the film together. as he was feeling it before he really showed it to me. And then he called me and said, I need you to come in with me. I wanna sit and talk together about what we're doing. And while we were there, one of the other people who worked on the movie came in and said, listen, this is not a movie for women. This is just a movie for 13 year old boys and just emphasize the action. And I said, you're absolutely wrong. This is a movie that women are gonna love, particularly when they see what was done to the woman that he loved. Women are gonna want revenge, but it was so much more than that, Brian. It was, well, the best way I can explain it, I was doing a charity screening of Braveheart a few years ago in Austin, Texas, and at the end of the screening, I walked up on the stage to do a Q&A with the audience. And the first person who stood up was a 19 year old woman on the front row. And she said, Mr. Wallace, I don't have a question. I just want to tell you something. My fiance died six months ago and before he died, he told me to watch Braveheart. So I would understand the way he loved me. Oh, gosh. Now I had to take a minute to, to. regain my ability to speak. And I had women tell me that they had watched the movie. One of my friends in Phoenix, Arizona, had watched the movie. Yeah, me too, man. I was, it got me. And this friend of mine said that she watched the movie and she walked out and there were a bunch of women milling around in the lobby and they all sat down together in a circle and they talked about what it meant. to be loved that way and to love that way. And that to me is the central principle. When people ask me why I make war stories, I always say I don't, I make love stories. Like, what do you love enough that you would give your life for it because that's when you really become alive. You're not really alive when you're only, when you lack. the thing in your life that you say, this is worth my life. This is bigger than me. That's what you need. What scene, when you saw it on the screen or in that preview meeting that you were with Mel, what scene was the scene that was most impactful for you when it went from your pen on the paper to now seeing it? Do you have a favorite scene or one that be touched deeply and emotionally? Every moment in that movie speaks to my soul. And when I watch it, I feel that everything there has its poetry and its heart. Every bit of that is a song to me. And some of the most subtle moments, well, I'll tell you one that's particularly- Yeah, please. Is- when we're in the moment of William Wallace's execution and the axe is falling toward his neck, I vividly recall sitting at my desk and thinking, we can't show the axe sever his head. What do we see now? When I'm writing, I'm always envisioning the movie as well. And I thought, well, what would I do? as William Wallace in the last fractions of a second of my life on earth, what would I do if I knew this was it, the axis falling? And I thought, he knows his friends, Hamish and Stephen, he knows they would be there. And he would look to them. So I typed in the last moments of his life, William Wallace turns his eyes to see Hamish and Stephen. And I did not know until that moment that she was there. that the woman he loved who had been killed was there, looking at him and smiling, and to tell him, I am where you are coming. You are coming to me. And I wept. So, you know, I had, it still affects me. It still affects me. Yeah, I think these, I think this, I think art is... the most powerful and profound when it taps into something deep inside of us. And that thing that's deep inside of us is always something that's deep inside of God, right? It's something transcendent, a transcendent value that we didn't dream up that simply is. And there's so many of them that are modeled in this movie. Love, you mentioned looking at his friends, like bonding with your friend, like genuine friends. And I think another one that I'd love to get your thoughts on is simply just being on mission. We watch movies like that and just about every guy, woman will go, man, yeah, I would give my life up for X, Y, Z. Man, I wish it was as simple as I line up on a battlefield with a sword and I die or I live instead of being numbed out to death and wondering what I'm here for. We're, we just see this thing. And how do you think? we as normal people can attain that level of significance and importance? Man, that is the greatest question. I once wrote down when I was sitting at the desk where I worked to write Braveheart, I always have a notepad handy. And I wrote down that maybe the expectation that everything we do has to be meaningful, is part of the original sin, that I have to be careful not to elevate myself to God, that there's a surrender, an acceptance that there is a God, it's not me, but the Creator created me to be creative, to be courageous, to have faith and to love. And And the question you just asked me is the question that I live with every day is, how can I do that now? When I was writing Braveheart, I did not see it as something grandiose. I didn't believe anybody was going to like it. There was one studio executive who is the daughter of Sidney Pollack, and her name is Rebecca Pollack Parker. She's now married. And Sidney Pollack directed some of my favorite movies ever. Jeremiah Johnson and Three Days of the Condor, Out of Africa. He was just a genius director. Out of Africa? You just lost me. Out of Africa is one of your favorite movies. No, no. Out of Africa is not one of my favorite movies. OK, good. I was going to say, my gosh, talk about extremes. Extreme great movie, Braveheart, and the worst freaking movie I've ever seen in my life. Instead, just go look at a National Geographic. magazine, it was all the series, beautiful, great. Go look at National Geographic. Oh, my God. Anyway, keep going. Well, three days of the Condor and Jeremiah Johnson are two absolutely transcendent great movies. Yeah, but I didn't I didn't know anyone would like it. Becky had liked the story when I first told her about it. And she went, my Lord, go write that. She was the one person that I thought, well, at least somebody will read it. But when I first wrote it, I gave it to a friend of mine named Jack Bernstein. And Jack wrote Ace Ventura. And, and so he's a comedy writer, but he's a great friend. And I gave him Braveheart and we met for breakfast the next morning. And I expected him to tell me I needed to find a new career. And he said, this is the greatest thing you've ever written. Maybe it's the greatest thing anybody's ever written. And like, you could have knocked me over with a feather. So I doing the thing that we're talking about now, I didn't have a sense at the moment that it was anything except bread on the water. But I believe the way I answered the question, and I think what you just asked is like the central question for us is that, We offer, I said this in my novel, I wrote a novel called The Touch, about a doctor who realizes he must have faith in order to be a great doctor. And then I wrote, you offer your hand to God, whether he uses it, whether your hand becomes his hand is up to him. And I think that's what we do, is we just keep offering our hand to God. And to me, the calling, my mission and the calling of every Braveheart warrior is not to convince other people of my opinions, but to love them in such a way that they too might believe that they were created by and for love. Maybe it's easier for me to believe in love because I've been loved so much in my life. But someone who, instead of being hugged and held, was hit and hated, it's harder for them. So my job is to stand in the place of the angels and hold the hand of somebody or put the hand on the shoulder or look in the eyes of someone and say, don't be afraid. That's my job. Today's episode is brought to you by AG1. I gave AG1 a try because I was feeling a bit sluggish, not confident I was getting all the nutrients that I felt that I needed. And I thought maybe this is an easy solution. So I drink AG1 in the morning. I love doing the morning. I do it on an empty stomach. It forces me to get 12 ounces of water into my system. I love doing something proactive and aggressive to make me feel better and at least give me peace of mind. AG1 is designed with this kind of ease in mind so you can live healthier and better without having to complicate your routine. Each scoop has 75 vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and whole food sourced ingredients of the highest quality. If you want to take ownership of your health, try AG1. and get a free one year supply of vitamin D and five free AG1 travel packs with your first purchase. So go to drinkag1.com slash aggressive life. That's drinkag1.com slash aggressive life to take control of your health. Check it out. I really like the journey you went through and it helps me maybe for the first time try to reclaim this phrase that I've cracked on a lot, which is, you know, you got to follow your passion. I just see a lot of people interpreting, I got to follow my passion, meaning if I don't want to do it, I shouldn't do it. And sorry, boys and girls, that's part of life. You do things you don't want to do, especially the younger you are, you know, you do things that are very menial. The way you get to do things that you want to do is you do things really well you don't want to do. You earn your stripes, get some money in the bank, earn some character, and on you go. But that phrase, you know, follow your passion, I need to probably reclaim at least a piece of that phrase because that's what I'm hearing from you. You had a passion for this story and you wrote it no matter what people would do and say. And then right, I love there too is, It's also the idea of, it's funny, Randy, I didn't start this podcast to be a faith podcast. It's not a faith podcast. Even though I am a pastor by day, it was something beyond that. But we keep getting into discussions of faith because things about faith are just relevant to normal people. So, you know, the Bible says there's victory in the counsel of many. So I'm hearing you go like, it was your passion, but then you took it to a couple of people who gave you counsel. And that's part of how you got victory. It's really cool to see those things working out. Yeah, and you know, I'm with you, Brian. I don't want to cloak what I do in dogma. My understanding is just my understanding. And it's biased and it's partial. But revelation is pure and true. and it's a call, and you have to grope with trying to understand that call. When people would say to me, you must have done a lot of research to write Braveheart, I always say, yeah, I read the New Testament. It's like that. And those aspects even of the New Testament, like when Jesus says, you know, wide and smooth is the way that leads to destruction and narrow and hard is the way that leads to life. What you say about discipline and I mean, that's part of being aggressive. I go to a workout with a bunch of surfers, Laird Hamilton, the big wave surfer, is a friend of mine and I get to go up to his place and do this, this pool workout with all these gnarly athletes. And And the funny thing about it, I'm not a surfer, I'm not a great swimmer. We're lifting weights under 12 feet of water and doing that sort of thing. But the great thing about it is it's a bunch of people who say, what's the hardest way we can do this? Which way will hurt the most? Let's do it that way. And you have that experience on a regular basis. It transforms you. the harder path because you believe it's that path. It's like my mother used to say to me, if everybody is doing this, then you know it's wrong. And if everybody likes you, you're doing something wrong. I've just started to make it more of a mission statement or at least a personal talk to myself statement of, I do hard things, yes I do, I do hard things. I like comfortable things, I do a lot of comfortable things, I got a lot of comforts. I'm up for taking advantage of all of civilization, all that civilization has to offer that's wonderful. But I just got to know, I do hard things. That's what I want to do, do hard things. And I think that's obviously embedded in that movie. And now I know it's embedded in you or else you wouldn't be drawn to lift weights under 12 feet of water. Yeah, I mean, if it's easy, why anybody could do it? Um, we would say, say that I said when you're making a movie, I mean, people think movie is hot tubs and, uh, drinks with little pink umbrellas in them. Making a movie is 16, 18, 20 hours a day for months on end, months and months on end. Uh, when we were making, we were soldiers. Yes. I had decided I had to be adventure ready. I've got a friend who was a leader. in America's most elite special operation, so elite special operations unit, they don't talk about the name of it. That's how elite it is. And now he's retired and he coaches people in becoming what he calls adventure ready. And to make, we were soldiers, I knew I had to be adventure ready. And I asked the army and they let me go to ranger school. And when I went to ranger school, I... met a guy there who was a ranger instructor and basically his job was keep this guy from LA alive through ranger school and when it was over he was one of my best friends and I invited him to come out and be an advisor on the movie and he said all my friends back at then it was Fort Benning now it's Fort Moore said all my friends will write me and say boy I bet it's fun I bet you're meeting a lot of girls I bet you're having one he said you wouldn't believe this is harder than being an instructor at ranger school. It's longer hours. It's more stress. It's, you know, because ranger school is clear. It's like, can you climb that mountain with that sack of rocks on your back? Can you go through that swamp? But, you know, then you can dig in and you can, you can draw on your reserves of discipline, but there's a lot of confusion and you're going through the fog a lot in making a movie. So Braveheart to that movie, what's called with, I've seen it, the one you just talked about. We Were Soldiers. Yes, Braveheart to We Were Soldiers, I could see a tie there, that makes sense to me. But Braveheart to We Were Soldiers to Secretariat, I don't necessarily see a tie there, or is there no tie there? It's just, You're an artist and you like to do different things. Or are there through lines to those movies? There is a tie there. The man who was head of the Disney movie division was Dick Cook. He was the chairman of the movie group then. And Dick had seen all my movies and he called me and he said, you're the guy that makes movies about heroes. and Secretariat is a hero, and the woman who owned him was a hero. And I want you to be the director of this movie. Had it been anybody else except him calling me up, because I respected him. And honestly, Brian, that's sort of the way I make any decision is I don't weigh a lot of things based on abstract ideas on a piece of paper. I look at the people. I go, if I'm going to go into a battle, If I'm going to have a fight, do I want to stand shoulder to shoulder with this person or not? If the answer is yes, then I'm in that fight. And I believed in him. I was touched by what he told me. And I thought, yeah, I will make this movie in my way, in that way. So in a certain way, Secretariat is in the same line. And it's also a love story. It's about what do you love? Not necessarily another person in a romantic way, but do you love the other people around you in such a way that you recognize their worth, that the calling of a Braveheart warrior is to love all. That's a good word. Now that you mention it, of course I see the tie, but I didn't initially, because you got... One looks like a male movie, one looks like a female movie, one is killing, one is racing. But one of the things is, in all those movies or with Secretary to Braveheart, you have a person who stands in the minority and says, no, I'm going to go this way. I wrote a book that has the five marks for man. It's one of the marks. The thing that separates men from boys. Men take a minority position. Boys always need to be in the majority. You know? boys always like, what's everyone else think? What's everyone else doing? What do I got to do? All that stuff. And we're a man who says, I know that what I do and what I believe is going to be in the minority and I'm comfortable with it. And that oftentimes leads to greatness, which I think are the movies we're talking about here. That's all, Randy. Tell us, give us some insight here. What makes for a good story? Like for those of us who are storytellers, whether we're writing a story, whether we're preaching a story, whether we're just telling a story around a fire, what are the marks? Surprise. I believe that surprise is the central currency of storytelling. Surprise is the evidence that, to me, that you are living. honestly, is that you're admitting you don't know everything and you're drawn into a story because you're intrigued by something. But for an example, in Braveheart, when the woman he loves is killed, Catherine McCormick, an actress that Mel had cast in the movie, just an unbelievably human being and the whole that's part of the whole thing of that movie is she appears to be a sinless woman like no problem with her at all like oh no not her the perfect one yeah no one could believe that she could possibly die everyone thought that surely this is a movie trope that the hero comes riding in and saves the woman he loves right um she can't possibly die 30 minutes into the movie. Right. But when she does, everybody is, is limited to what will happen. It takes you by surprise. And that to me is a mark of the true spirit of life. The greatest things in my life have surprised me. I was present at the birth of all three of my sons. And even though I expected a baby, the babies, thank heaven, were born healthy and all of those things. But you look into their face for the first time and you're surprised, you're overawed by the, this is a new life. I think it was Jane Austen who said, an ending that does not surprise the writer. will not surprise the reader. Oh, interesting. And so I always approach my stories. I don't outline. I don't outline first anyway. I will kind of outline as I go. If I'm writing and I realize how something might happen, I'll jot those notes down. But I don't make an outline and then write it. To me, that's cowardice. To me, that is trying to control. the process. Say, I don't know, did you see the get back documentary of the Beatles when they were making their final album? I did, yes. So what really struck me was how playful they still were. They had, their family was breaking up. They were having tension among them, but still when they were sitting there together with their instruments, they were playing and. and letting it live and finding it in the movement of it. And that's what I believe in, in terms of storytelling and music and everything. Well, I also find it really interesting how you don't have an outline when you sit down. I don't either. I'm not talking about books that I write. I'm talking about sermons I give or something like that. I mean, eventually you could look at an outline and see it eventually, but starting off not in really knowing where it's going, or I know what I want people to basically get, but I don't really have that all thing buttoned up. And I have a lot of people I work with who are support folks who help me, who video people, all that stuff, who are always, I need it earlier, I need it earlier, I need it, I want, I want, you got to get me handy. And they've been asking me to have it earlier for 27 years. No, you'll make our plans and systems if you're going to get it like the last minute. Because that's the way I work creatively. And then I saw that Beatles movie. I was, well, that's actually, I'm not saying I'm a great, but I'm going, that's the way these great people did. Like, the fact McCartney said in that movie, we always work best when our backs up against the wall. And they didn't have that album figured out until right before they had to go up and sing that song. And I hear that's the same with you in terms of how you write. Yes. Yeah. It's you, you have to trust it. Sort of like Mike Tyson saying, everybody, every boxer has a plan until he gets punched in the face. I had someone tell me once, when you plan a conversation, you're gonna have a difficult conversation with your wife, your friend, a coworker or anything. You'll, you go through it in your head and say, I'm gonna say this and then they're gonna, they're gonna say that and then I'm gonna say this. That flies out the window the moment you start, but you have to have the faith to start. That's an act of courage. It's an act of leaning in. It's like, um, do something, do something. And from doing that, there are consequences, sometimes beautiful consequences you never could have imagined. All right. So I know we booked you for an hour. I go a lot longer and I, would like to go, and I will go a few minutes longer than an hour if you'll give it to me, but I know I'm trying to like consolidate things now. I'm like, oh crap, crap. So I just got, I got to just jump to something else that's totally unrelated to that. But I just got to get this in a couple things. One. Are you, do you live in a castle now? You're sitting, I see behind you, there's a plaque in the wall that says freedom. It looks like a very high stone wall and you've got a sword with Scottish colors on it. Is this your house and you live in a castle? This is my house and I live in a trailer park. No, you don't. You're a crack. I do. You're a trailer right now. I'm in a trailer. Yeah, you are not. I am. I am in a trailer. And it's the happiest place I've ever lived. Now. Wow. Trailer Park in Malibu is different than a trailer park say in Lizard Lick, Tennessee, where my daddy came from. But it's a community that started years, years ago and became a community for young families. And it's to me, it's like living in the Shire and Lord of the Rings. It's I know all my neighbors, the children play out in the middle of the street. But I also look out at the Pacific Ocean. But when I bought this place, I had the stone fireplace built and freedom put in the center of it. So but you're living on wheels. You could actually wheel your house someplace if you're in a trailer park. Actually, this one has wheels under it, but it's stucco and it's built into the into the lot. Yeah. All right. That's cool. That's great. I was going to say it's really cool for you to enjoy the fruits of your labor, which you still are, obviously, but that's cool. Okay, the other one. I don't spend my money on housing. What do you spend it on? Mostly, honestly, mostly savings so I can do, I keep it handy so I can do what I believe in doing rather than that I have to work and take a job doing something that I don't want to do because I need to feed my family. I've always been extremely frugal. When I went to Nashville from college, I worked 80 hours a week, but I would get up at 4.30 every morning so I could write songs. I believe in a disciplined life. That's great. Yeah, the discipline. That's another one to really hit on. Dyrd, I was talking with Darren Yates and Kyle Rantz and they're two people I work with pretty closely and they said, we should think about this. They said, people know you as the fun guy because you kind of play that up. He said, but what people don't know about you and because you don't talk about it is you're one of the most disciplined people I've ever known. You know, you probably need to talk more about discipline because it's really a key to success and you do it really, really well, but you know, yeah. I don't totally and probably someone would look at you Randy and just go. Oh, yeah. Well, you just this is just the guy understands stories Yeah, this is just the guy who understands how to make in Hollywood Well, but under there is a very strict regimented system of how you decide you live your life that you live it that way All the time. Yeah. I have I have my failures and my stumbles and all of those other things but To me, it's a gift to be able to choose your path and to choose the hard road. That's a gift. All right. OK, one last variant topic out of nowhere. This new Mel Gibson sequel to the, you know, to, gosh, I forget his first movie on Jesus. Passion of the Christ. Passion of the Christ, yes. I almost said Last Temptation, which is another one. even more controversial initially than the Passion of Christ. I find it fascinating that you're doing this for historians, those who've lived for about 20 years. What happened was the most gory, authentic reproduction of the death of Christ came out. And Most people didn't like it was just way, way too much. And then you read the critics and the critics were saying things like, Oh, but they didn't go into this. Oh, but what about that? What? Jesus's life is just so much. Why didn't this? And I just read these things. I said, look, you might not like the movie, but that was the vision for the movie. The passion of Christ. That's about the death of Christ. That was the vision for the movie. You can't like get upset that they didn't cover this about Jesus or that about Jesus. That was that. And I just thought. That was where it was going to end. One of the most true life descriptions of the resurrection or the, of the crucifixion of Christ. And then I've wrote that there's going to be another one. I said, what? Wow. And it's on the resurrection. And I'm thinking on the resurrection, that'll be amazing because it's, it's really, it's always befuddled me that people would want to wear a cross. If you want to wear a cross, good for you. thankful for that. But what's been thought of me, if people wear crosses, we have no idea what they're doing. It's like wearing an electric chair around your neck. It's a means of execution. The early church, the cross, was not the center point of their faith. The center point of their faith was the resurrection. But it's a long meander way to get my question to you. But a cross is one thing, because you can put it on your ear or around your neck. How do you put an empty tomb? around your neck or on your ear. And that's why it's hardly ever depicted movies. And when it is, it's just substandard. Because it's so ethereal, so otherworldly. And now you're coming out with a movie on the Res... Tell me what you can tell me. Come on. I know they've sworn you to some sort of secrecy. But you got to give me something. I need to know something. This is how much I can tell you. is overwhelming and mind-blowing. The story of the resurrection is mind-blowing. It blew the minds of the disciples, the people that followed Jesus, even though Jesus had told them multiple times that this was gonna happen, they didn't expect it, believe it. They couldn't get their minds around it when it happened. And this is This is being approached with the sense of how mysterious and inexpressible this thing is. When Mel and I first talked about it, I have been obsessed with studying the resurrection since my youngest days, because I knew it was the central mystery of Christianity. I brought it up to Mel. We were on a trip promoting Hacksaw Ridge, which was a movie I worked on. I didn't have, I didn't get credited with that. You did Hacksaw Ridge too? Yeah, I was- Damn, you just did like all my favorite movies of all time. Who are you? How do I not know your name until this time? Damn, Hacksaw Ridge. Dude, that's unbelievable movie. Yeah, it's an incredible movie. And when they came to me and asked me to direct it, and at the time it was called the CO, the conscientious objector. And I thought the CO was a lousy title and I changed the title to Hacksaw Ridge and I did a rewrite. And then I got the opportunity to, I got the offer to direct Heaven Is For Real. And I said to them, all right, I'm gonna go direct Heaven Is For Real cause it's closer to production. I think you ought to send Hacksaw Ridge to Mel. Turned out they had sent it to Mel before they sent it to me and Mel had said no. But they sent him my draft and then he read it and said, yes, and I didn't get credit because of the Writers Guild credit system, but I wanted to go with Mel to promote the movie because I thought it was such an important movie and we were on that trip having dinner together, just the two of us. And I said, you know, we really need to do the resurrection. And I'm certain he must've thought of it many times before, but he looked at me like it. it's impossible to do. And I said, look, we've only told part of the story. And the disciples, when Jesus was crucified, they thought the story was over. In fact, I want to try a thought out on you, Brian, and tell me whether you think this is accurate, that Jesus Christ was crucified. Nobody credible disputes that. Yes. But. we would have never heard his name or one single thing he said, had it not been for the resurrection. If there hadn't been the resurrection, whatever we think that is, because they saw him, but at first they didn't recognize him, then they did, but they touched him. He cooked, he built a fire, he ate with them. They said he was real, even Saint Paul, who didn't know him in life, but encountered the resurrected Jesus. Like Jesus is physically resurrected. It is the most mind blowing mystery. Like NT Wright says, if you don't think the story is preposterous, you're missing the point. The point is that everything you think you've got all figured out, you don't have figured out. Well, I figure that is one of the evidences. of the reality of the resurrection is that the story of Jesus would have vanished. It would have just been, oh, we thought he was going to do these great things. He's dead. It's over. Wait. It's not over. And you can kill us, but you can't make us say it's not true. And there we have Christianity. So the biggest thing I can tell you is that Mel is, and I can speak for myself, I am. in whatever our parts are of this, is approaching it with the greatest amount of reverence. I remember watching one of those enlightened PBS documentaries. PBS would always bring out some faith-oriented special around Easter time. And they invariably were always why, basically why you can't trust the New Testament or why Christianity is the same as everything. It's like you're leveraging you're leveraging the Easter holiday and you're using it to make people doubt their faith. Because they always have these very quote unquote enlightened and educated PhDs on. And I remember one of them from the University of Texas, he said, we got to remember that in the first century, miracle workers were a dime a dozen. That was exact, is exact. Miracle workers were a dime a dozen. And And I, because I know about the resurrection, I thought I said, so I basically screened the TV. Yeah, yeah, they were a dime a dozen and no one knows any of their names either. Because yeah, they did a, they did miracles. No one knows their names, but we know the name of Jesus because he actually came back from the dead and people died willingly set on fire by Nero to light up his garden. because they said, no, I saw it. You can't tell me I didn't see it. And there was a groundswell of that. So yes. Yes, exactly. Yeah, so are you filming right now? Are you writing right now? Or what's going on? So working through the script, so the Mel look, I view Mel as a genius. I mean, he'll have ideas that. that no one else would have. And I wrote the initial drafts and I really stayed close to the New Testament because of what you mentioned about the passion. The first time I saw the passion, and he showed me an early screening in his office, and I knew that you only have two hours to tell the story he wanted to tell, and he wanted to emphasize. the actual pain, the grit, the reality of it, instead of the sort of saccharine sweetness of a Renaissance painting of the resurrection, like a pretty picture. But he wanted to regain its reality. And I saw that and I saw the power of that. And I was also longing for, I wanna know why he came to the cross and I wanna know what happened afterwards. So my initial take was like the Godfather, Godfather two, let's go backwards and forwards. Let's go back to when the disciples first met Jesus with John the Baptist. And let's go from the moment when Peter has denied that he even knows who Jesus is. Wow. And let's go there. And then Mel had a really brilliant idea. And this won't tell you anything, but it will tell you a lot in a certain way that there's a lot going on in the spiritual realm. What, and this is, we have to imagine, but like all great art, when someone imagines, okay, what was the encounter of people who were long dead? uh, when Jesus was crucified and they, but they knew the dead knew that something cataclysmic had just happened. Come on. Are you freaking kidding me? Wow. Take this as a teaser. When this comes. I'm teased. Get me some paper towels. I'm too teased right now. Oh my gosh. Oh, geez. Oh man. So, and just the biggest thing I want to emphasize for all the things about everybody involved in this movie is that it's a spiritual thing that one of the first things Mel said to me when we were discussing this is, we have to take care of our own souls. We can't be doing any of this for money. We can't do any of this for anything other than to be, to be telling the truth. And... And that's somebody that, like when you talk about, who do you want to stand shoulder to shoulder with? He's not perfect, I'm not perfect, none of us are perfect. That should not stop us from stepping forward and saying, here we are, send me. That is so inspiring. I can't wait to see it. Is there a timeframe and when it's filmed and when it's coming out? Any basic intel like that? We know filming has begun, rumors have flown around because everyone is so eager to see it that when they'll hear Mel Gibson is filming, they hear that and they go, oh, he's filming the resurrection. And then my phone will blow up and I'll be getting texts from all over the world. People going, it's happening. It's happening. What's going on? The resurrection is happening. Resurrection is happening. Resurrection of the dead is happening. But, you know, it is in the hands of God and it's making its progress. I can't give a date for when we'll be ready to start, but I'm as excited as you are. I really wanna see this. Randy, is there anything you wanna talk about that I haven't asked you about? The only thing I might tell you is that I have become inspired to do something live. The pandemic offended me in any number of ways. It offended me in the sense that we were feeding each other fear and everybody became afraid to be together. Children couldn't go to school. People couldn't work. the government was telling people not to go to church. And I understand the government felt it had a role to try to keep everyone safe, but separating people is the wrong thing to me. And I decided I was gonna do a live show. And I've created a live show of using clips from my movies and stories about how those scenes came about and songs that I wrote for those movies or about those movies and about those feelings. And I'm getting ready to go out to colleges, to churches, to do the live show. Don't have dates yet for when I'm, what my tour will be, but in a couple of weeks I'm going to Mississippi at Mississippi College, which is a historically Baptist college, I'm gonna be at an African-American church the Sunday before and get to sing with their choir. And then their choir is gonna come sing with me on my live show. and I'm getting ready to do that live show. So your live show, you have actors and stuff in it? Well, it's a one man show. It's kind of like Pringsten on Broadway, but when I say one man, there'll be some other people who sing with me. But I show clips from my movies, largely what we're doing here. I wanna show the actual clips and talk about how those scenes came about and how a transformation in my life. changed everything about my movies and my life and how that transformation might, might help other people, how they can find that transformation in their own lives. Well, shoot, man, I might, I might want to get my day job involved in that. How does, how would Crossroads host you for that? Well, it would be, it'd be perfect. I really want to get out to churches and, and talk about, about these things. Talk about, living a life of faith and courage. We get pitched things, screenings all the time, and the answer is always the same, no. I mean, we just got enough things to do, and no, we're not gonna be part of your marketing plan, and no, I'm sure your comedy thing for couples is great, maybe we'll do some one day, but no, no. But, you know, knowing how much I've connected with you and how much I've enjoyed this, kind of a kindred spirit, yeah, man, let's talk, let's figure out if that's a fit and how that works. That sounds right, Barali. Showing Braveheart clips? Done. Secretary clips? Yes. Hearing you basically give your story and preach to those clips? Yum. So yeah, let's figure that out. Thank you so much. This has done my heart so much good. I can't tell you how much there is a, in giving you receive and how much you. are giving to me and how much I'm receiving it. It's inspiring to know, my profession's solitary. There's a, it's solitary and it's lonely and it's really good to find brothers. It really is great. Well, it's also, yeah, I agree. And I feel the same way. It's also really invigorating to find a warrior who operates in a different realm. You know, you're a warrior. I mean, you're not raising a sword, but you're raising a pen. You're not pushing people into the mud, but you're pushing down keys on your computer. You're standing tall in your faith. You're doing what you have and entering the fight that God would have for you. And I mean, a lot of us would say, oh, no, a Hollywood writer, that's not a warrior. No, you are. You're being true to God, and that is who yourself is. And I'm inspired, and I think our listeners are as well. So let's give up a hearty go, go. So how about if someone wants to reach out to you or would you have a website or any other last advertisement you want to drive traffic to? I think the main thing I would send people to, I can be reached at Randall at RW Film, but one of the things I love people to see is I wrote a hymn called Praise Ye the Lord. by Randall Wallace, they can find it on YouTube. And that's my latest thing is that instead of using our hands and our voices to express fear, we ought to glorify our gifts and be grateful. We ought to be praising God now, not pointing fingers at each other. Yeah, that's cool, man. Well, hey, Aggressive Life audience, this has been really inspiring and uplifting. Let's just recognize one thing that Randy said. He talked about laying down your life. Lay down your life. I want to encourage you, whatever realm you can be a warrior in, social services, school, CEO, your neighborhood, we all need to do a little bit of dying, a little bit of laying down of our life. And there might just be a better story that erupts that blesses generations. So, hey. Take something from here, do something from here, do a little dying, and we'll see you next time on The Aggressive Life. Thanks for joining us on this journey toward aggressive living. Find more resources, articles, past episodes, and live events over at bryantome.com. My new books, a repackaged edition of The Five Marks of a Man and a brand new Five Marks of a Man Tactical Guide are open right now on Amazon. If you haven't yet, leave this podcast a rating and review. It really helps get the show in front of new listeners. And if you want to connect, find me on Instagram, at Brian Tome. The Aggressive Life is a production of Crossroads Church, Cincinnati, Ohio.