INTRODUCTION: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where

INTRODUCTION: we share learning and expertise in child

INTRODUCTION: protection from inside and outside of the

INTRODUCTION: organisation.

INTRODUCTION: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection

INTRODUCTION: and share good practice on how we can all

INTRODUCTION: work together to keep babies, children and

INTRODUCTION: young people safe.

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Welcome to the NSPCC Learning

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Podcast. Today's two-part

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): episode is all about early

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): intervention and supporting new

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): parents through adversity, to

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): ensure the best outcomes for

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): them and their child.

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): You're going to hear a conversation between

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Colin Smy and Ged Docherty.

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Colin works at the NSPCC's

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Blackpool Better Start Service.

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Blackpool Better Start is a

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): 10-year national lottery funded

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): programme to transform services

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): in the town and change

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): childhoods through lived experience,

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): science and evidence.

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Ged Docherty is a Team Manager

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): at one of Blackpool Better Start's

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): 40 funded services, For Baby's

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Sake. For Baby's Sake is a

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): programme for expectant parents

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): that takes a whole family approach,

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): starting in pregnancy and

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): dealing with the entire cycle

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): and history of domestic abuse,

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): identifying and directly

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): addressing the trauma or traumas

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): that lie at the heart of the problem.

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Colin and Ged's conversation,

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): recorded in September 2023,

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): will cover the importance of

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): the first 1001 days of a

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): child's life and how For Baby's

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Sake uses therapeutic,

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): trauma-informed and strengths-based

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): approaches to support parents

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): going through adversity during

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): the early years.

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Whilst the discussion focuses

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): on the early years, the techniques

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): that Ged mentions in this podcast

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): should be useful inspiration

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): for professionals working with

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): families at any stage of the

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): parental journey.

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): The discussion will be interspersed

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): with clips from an interview we

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): filmed earlier this year with

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Jake and Charlotte, two parents

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): who are participating in the

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): For Baby's Sake programme.

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Jake and Charlotte are parents

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): to a little girl, Isabella, who

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): you may hear playing and babbling

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): in the background of the recordings.

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): The couple faced adversity when

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Charlotte was pregnant with Isabella — Jake

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): was in prison for domestic abuse

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): — but For Baby's Sake worked with

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): them to overcome these challenges,

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): better handle complex emotions

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): and form trusting relationships

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): in order to best care for baby

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Isabella. As part of the

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): programme, Jake and Charlotte each

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): have a therapeutic practitioner,

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Owen and Karen, who you will

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): also hear talking in these

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): clips. In the first clip, Jake

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): and Charlotte explain how they came

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): to work with For Baby's Sake.

OWEN: So Jake, what were your expectations of working with

OWEN: For Baby's Sake?

JAKE: Um, well, obviously,

JAKE: as you know, at the time I was in custody when

JAKE: the referral went in, and Isabella wasn't born yet.

JAKE: I was struggling with building a healthy relationship

JAKE: with, obviously, with my daughter and

JAKE: my partner Charlotte.

JAKE: And you know, so I was

JAKE: just expecting for just help to try and, you

JAKE: know, help me understand my emotions and understand

JAKE: how to be a dad, you know, and how to make those

JAKE: relationships work.

OWEN: Brilliant. And how have you found the service of far

OWEN: then?

JAKE: Really good. I mean, as I touched on a minute ago,

JAKE: obviously you yourself came to see me while I was in

JAKE: custody. We did a bit of work then, and then

JAKE: everything carried on after release as well.

JAKE: I was expecting maybe a bit of time, like, to get

JAKE: things sorted out, but it was seamless and then, you

JAKE: know, I continue obviously to work together today,

JAKE: which is great.

KAREN: So what was the experience like for you, Charlotte?

KAREN: We've just heard from Jake. What was the experience

KAREN: like for you?

CHARLOTTE: Well, it made me feel like I could speak

CHARLOTTE: about things that were bothering me in a safe

CHARLOTTE: space and that

CHARLOTTE: it would teach us to be able to do that

CHARLOTTE: on our own in the future rather than with

CHARLOTTE: you two next to us. And it just gives us that

CHARLOTTE: — I don't really use the word lesson — but it

CHARLOTTE: just helps us be able to

CHARLOTTE: learn how to do that on our own and it

CHARLOTTE: will benefit us in the future because

CHARLOTTE: that's something that we can use constantly

CHARLOTTE: around Isabella or, like I said, without you

CHARLOTTE: there.

COLIN SMY: Welcome, everybody.

COLIN SMY: We're here talking about supporting parents

COLIN SMY: today. My name is Colin Smy and I'm a

COLIN SMY: Development Manager at Blackpool Better Start.

COLIN SMY: Blackpool Better Start is a ten-year lottery

COLIN SMY: funded programme. We're working with families

COLIN SMY: in deprived areas from pregnancy to age

COLIN SMY: four and we're trying to identify the

COLIN SMY: opportunities for them to improve their life

COLIN SMY: chances across a range of things, including

COLIN SMY: health, diet, nutrition, school readiness,

COLIN SMY: social emotional wellbeing and healthy gestation

COLIN SMY: in birth and pregnancy.

COLIN SMY: With me today is Ged Docherty.

COLIN SMY: Would you like to introduce yourself, Ged.

GED DOCHERTY: Afternoon, everyone. My name's Ged Docherty

GED DOCHERTY: and I'm the Team Manager of the Blackpool

GED DOCHERTY: For Baby's Sake team.

GED DOCHERTY: We are a specialist

GED DOCHERTY: thematic team who work in

GED DOCHERTY: a trauma-informed, empathic

GED DOCHERTY: way with pregnant couples

GED DOCHERTY: who are experiencing domestic violence,

GED DOCHERTY: either currently or in the past, in

GED DOCHERTY: their relationship.

GED DOCHERTY: We offer a unique approach

GED DOCHERTY: into how we work

GED DOCHERTY: with those co-parents in that

GED DOCHERTY: mum gets a worker and dad gets a worker.

GED DOCHERTY: And we follow a specific

GED DOCHERTY: evidence-based programme approach

GED DOCHERTY: to the work. We start in pregnancy

GED DOCHERTY: around viable pregnancy time, so

GED DOCHERTY: 15 weeks onwards, and we can

GED DOCHERTY: remain working with that family with their

GED DOCHERTY: consent until the child's second

GED DOCHERTY: birthday — so the first critical 1001

GED DOCHERTY: days of a child's life.

COLIN SMY: That's fantastic, Ged.

COLIN SMY: And that leads nicely into the first two areas

COLIN SMY: we're talking about. In Better Start and the

COLIN SMY: Centre for Early Child Development, we like to

COLIN SMY: always talk about the 1001 days and why they're

COLIN SMY: so critical.

COLIN SMY: What for you — and we've spoken about this

COLIN SMY: regularly at different times — but what for you

COLIN SMY: is so important about those first 1001 days that

COLIN SMY: you see in families and the challenges in

COLIN SMY: Blackpool?

GED DOCHERTY: We both know, because we've worked in the

GED DOCHERTY: town for a very long time, that there are

GED DOCHERTY: lots of complex issues which

GED DOCHERTY: are unique to the families

GED DOCHERTY: in our town.

GED DOCHERTY: Blackpool is top of the list for all

GED DOCHERTY: the right reasons and it's the top of the

GED DOCHERTY: list for all the wrong reasons.

GED DOCHERTY: Some of the families that we serve live in

GED DOCHERTY: the poorest ward in England,

GED DOCHERTY: so poverty in and of itself has a massive

GED DOCHERTY: detrimental impact on a child

GED DOCHERTY: and their family's outcomes without

GED DOCHERTY: the additional complex needs associated

GED DOCHERTY: with their parents, their parent's childhood,

GED DOCHERTY: and their parent's past.

GED DOCHERTY: I am a social worker by profession and I've

GED DOCHERTY: worked with children and families for 30

GED DOCHERTY: years, and across that spectrum of my

GED DOCHERTY: practice, my learning has

GED DOCHERTY: continued, grown, developed our

GED DOCHERTY: understanding of children and babies

GED DOCHERTY: and families functioning and their

GED DOCHERTY: capacity has grown and developed.

GED DOCHERTY: And the For Baby's Sake model of practice,

GED DOCHERTY: which was developed some ten years ago,

GED DOCHERTY: clearly tells us that the work

GED DOCHERTY: that has been undertaken with families —

GED DOCHERTY: targeted thematic work which takes

GED DOCHERTY: into account intergenerational

GED DOCHERTY: cycles of harm — that how we can support

GED DOCHERTY: families to break those cycles and that we

GED DOCHERTY: can potentially improve a child's

GED DOCHERTY: healthy outcomes, emotional

GED DOCHERTY: and social, across their lifespan.

GED DOCHERTY: And that is significant

GED DOCHERTY: beyond comprehension.

COLIN SMY: Yeah, and there's a number of

COLIN SMY: reports that we come across quite regularly, and

COLIN SMY: it certainly made it to a parliamentary level

COLIN SMY: now, where we've seen start for life funding

COLIN SMY: recently looking at the first 1001 days

COLIN SMY: and the impact on that. We talk about word gaps.

COLIN SMY: Children and babies are quite often not exposed

COLIN SMY: to that speech and language and the

COLIN SMY: opportunities to learn and be able to

COLIN SMY: communicate. And we know that the brain develops

COLIN SMY: most rapidly at that early stage; starts out

COLIN SMY: quite smooth and flat and all those neurones

COLIN SMY: firing about with all the input that goes on.

COLIN SMY: It's really important that we've got the

COLIN SMY: opportunity for those babies to experience

COLIN SMY: what's required for the inputs without it being

COLIN SMY: over the top, without being negative, without

COLIN SMY: being toxic.

COLIN SMY: It's a bit like finding a Goldilocks zone

COLIN SMY: sometimes, isn't it? But it doesn't have to

COLIN SMY: quite that complicated — not astrophysics — does

COLIN SMY: it?

GED DOCHERTY: No. And it's really significant that you

GED DOCHERTY: mention that, because integral to the work

GED DOCHERTY: that we do in For Baby's Sake is that we

GED DOCHERTY: support parents to understand via

GED DOCHERTY: the Alberta wellness brain

GED DOCHERTY: training — accredited training

GED DOCHERTY: that is free for anyone — is that we support

GED DOCHERTY: our parents in the way that parents now

GED DOCHERTY: know the harmful impacts of

GED DOCHERTY: smoking and alcohol during pregnancy.

GED DOCHERTY: They now understand the impacts on their

GED DOCHERTY: baby's developing brain of the stress

GED DOCHERTY: hormone cortisol, which can be present

GED DOCHERTY: if someone is a victim experiencing

GED DOCHERTY: consistent forms of domestic violence

GED DOCHERTY: and other associated abuse behaviours.

GED DOCHERTY: So when we capture parents at that

GED DOCHERTY: critical moment in time, whilst the baby's in

GED DOCHERTY: utero, and we develop their understanding of

GED DOCHERTY: the harm that can be caused, people then can

GED DOCHERTY: make safer choices.

GED DOCHERTY: In the past, the countless times that I would

GED DOCHERTY: have conversations with parents and they

GED DOCHERTY: would say, "what you on about?

GED DOCHERTY: The kids were upstairs," or "well, the baby's

GED DOCHERTY: inside. What harm is it coming to?

GED DOCHERTY: I never touched her." But they have no

GED DOCHERTY: concept of the harm that was physically

GED DOCHERTY: taking place because that baby's mother was

GED DOCHERTY: stressed. So that is a significant

GED DOCHERTY: piece of learning that we undertake with

GED DOCHERTY: parents at that critical moment in time.

GED DOCHERTY: And then when we've established that

GED DOCHERTY: groundwork, understanding, that

GED DOCHERTY: then forms the basis.

GED DOCHERTY: That's like our foundation.

GED DOCHERTY: And then we begin to build upon and build

GED DOCHERTY: upon and bring all of the other learning in

GED DOCHERTY: too; about people's capacity to learn

GED DOCHERTY: how to self-soothe, self-regulate, make safer

GED DOCHERTY: choices, function in a different way,

GED DOCHERTY: understand their past and the impact that

GED DOCHERTY: their parents' past and the grandparents'

GED DOCHERTY: past has had on their functioning

GED DOCHERTY: and how they deal with situations.

COLIN SMY: Yeah, and I think what's interesting is how

COLIN SMY: we're able to move through the pillars of what

COLIN SMY: Better Start's looking at there and introduce it

COLIN SMY: around speech, language and communication and

COLIN SMY: being able to verbalise emotions.

COLIN SMY: And actually what you're able to talk about

COLIN SMY: there, moving into is the social and emotional

COLIN SMY: development we're looking at, and that's the

COLIN SMY: critical— one of the other critical elements of

COLIN SMY: that first 1001 days: that babies

COLIN SMY: learn about how to regulate emotion, how to

COLIN SMY: build relationships with caregivers.

COLIN SMY: And I'm not going to try and be clever and list

COLIN SMY: all the chemicals off, cortisol and oxytocin

COLIN SMY: and the other ones, but they're all firing and

COLIN SMY: going away about how they manage those

COLIN SMY: relationships. And it's interesting when you say

COLIN SMY: about self-soothing as well, as adults how

COLIN SMY: we do it, but it's understanding that as

COLIN SMY: children and as babies, when we're a caregiver,

COLIN SMY: and we can see the difference between those

COLIN SMY: children, can't we, that we work with in the

COLIN SMY: families who are overfamiliar,

COLIN SMY: underfamiliar...

COLIN SMY: The behaviours around different people are

COLIN SMY: different because they might come to— when we

COLIN SMY: talk about self-soothing and crying sometimes

COLIN SMY: actually it's understanding what that baby's

COLIN SMY: telling you by crying.

COLIN SMY: They're not using words and our language, but

COLIN SMY: they're using the language that's open to them

COLIN SMY: to try to get attention, to try to get

COLIN SMY: affection, to try to get the love, and

COLIN SMY: understanding that actually it's okay for babies

COLIN SMY: to cry. And you responding

COLIN SMY: to them isn't spoiling them.

GED DOCHERTY: Yeah. It's okay for parents to

GED DOCHERTY: say, "my baby crying is stressing

GED DOCHERTY: me out." We know, because we talk all the

GED DOCHERTY: time about working with especially the dads

GED DOCHERTY: in our town — and I don't mean to generalise

GED DOCHERTY: or make it gender specific — but we know

GED DOCHERTY: that there are dads in our town whose

GED DOCHERTY: capacity to know how to be the best parent

GED DOCHERTY: possible is limited, and that's

GED DOCHERTY: because of structural inequalities

GED DOCHERTY: within the service provision in our town.

GED DOCHERTY: Blackpool is making huge strides forward in

GED DOCHERTY: all of the new services and training

GED DOCHERTY: opportunities for parents, run by parents,

GED DOCHERTY: run by professionals, that everyone can

GED DOCHERTY: access. And our dads are gaining

GED DOCHERTY: confidence in how they are

GED DOCHERTY: approaching their role as a parent and

GED DOCHERTY: a partner. And a partner in terms of being

GED DOCHERTY: a co-parent, not just a partner to

GED DOCHERTY: your significant other.

GED DOCHERTY: It's about the partnership of parenting

GED DOCHERTY: that baby.

COLIN SMY: And we saw that in the

COLIN SMY: recording from a couple of your parents — Jake

COLIN SMY: and Charlotte.

GED DOCHERTY: Yeah.

COLIN SMY: Jake talks quite a bit.

COLIN SMY: And it's interesting because when he's been

COLIN SMY: through For Baby's Sake with your team — I think

COLIN SMY: it's Owen he worked with wasn't it — and he's

COLIN SMY: actually reflected on the way he's changed and

COLIN SMY: the impact of his parenting before, the impact

COLIN SMY: of parenting afterwards, but also the impact of

COLIN SMY: his behaviour on his partner.

COLIN SMY: So he stopped thinking to himself "he's dad on

COLIN SMY: his own, she's mum on her own, and that's baby

COLIN SMY: on her own", and started thinking of themselves

COLIN SMY: as a family, as a triad, and all reliant on one

COLIN SMY: another.

JAKE: Me in the past, being obviously a perpetrator of

JAKE: domestic violence and domestic abuse, it's been,

JAKE: you know, my whole perception of a relationship

JAKE: was completely out of order and wrong.

JAKE: It wasn't healthy. It's never been healthy and

JAKE: it's kind of given me ways to change

JAKE: that and how to

JAKE: realise that, you know, things are normal.

JAKE: Like if Charlotte needs a bit of time to just go

JAKE: away, have her time, it's okay for that

JAKE: to happen. Instead of me being...

JAKE: Wanting to solve things there and then and stuff

JAKE: and I think that passes on. If someone's been violent

JAKE: towards a partner before.

JAKE: You know, it can easily happen to a family

JAKE: member, you know, a child that

JAKE: is there. I mean, someone who's violent and who has a

JAKE: violent outburst doesn't think what he's doing at the

JAKE: time nine times out of ten.

JAKE: It's just the red mist descends.

JAKE: The violent outburst happens. And then before you

JAKE: know it, you know, my child

JAKE: could be hurt.

JAKE: My partner could be hurt.

JAKE: And, I guess, trying to turn that

JAKE: violence into a more

JAKE: better managed behaviour that deals with that emotion

JAKE: that you're feeling is one of the best things that

JAKE: will keep that child safe and

JAKE: stop anything happening that could harm

JAKE: her.

GED DOCHERTY: Jake had significant adversity in his

GED DOCHERTY: past. And when we first met him, he was

GED DOCHERTY: serving a prison sentence.

GED DOCHERTY: But we were still able to work with him

GED DOCHERTY: whilst he was in prison.

GED DOCHERTY: We had virtual contact with him.

GED DOCHERTY: Owen went to see him face-to-face and did

GED DOCHERTY: programme work in the prison with him.

GED DOCHERTY: And then that work seamlessly continued when

GED DOCHERTY: he came out back into the community and

GED DOCHERTY: was living in his own place.

GED DOCHERTY: They were living separately at that time.

GED DOCHERTY: The baby had been subject to a child

GED DOCHERTY: protection plan and the evidence that was

GED DOCHERTY: being generated via the work that him and his

GED DOCHERTY: partner Charlotte were doing — our consistent

GED DOCHERTY: contact and feeding it into

GED DOCHERTY: that statutory social work process — to

GED DOCHERTY: the point where I came back from leave today

GED DOCHERTY: and was copied into an email, and the family

GED DOCHERTY: have stepped down to universal

GED DOCHERTY: services because there is no presenting

GED DOCHERTY: evidence of any risk to that child

GED DOCHERTY: because their parents have been utterly

GED DOCHERTY: committed to making those changes.

GED DOCHERTY: But you used the word reflect when you were

GED DOCHERTY: talking about some of the stuff that Jake had

GED DOCHERTY: said. Jake and Charlotte have

GED DOCHERTY: embraced the concept of reflection,

GED DOCHERTY: and they've used that to make their

GED DOCHERTY: situation safer, because they are

GED DOCHERTY: actively thinking about decisions that

GED DOCHERTY: they've made in the past, decisions they're

GED DOCHERTY: making in the present.

GED DOCHERTY: What is the right thing to do?

GED DOCHERTY: What is the safest thing to do?

GED DOCHERTY: Why did we end up in this situation?

GED DOCHERTY: What caused that to happen?

GED DOCHERTY: What could have been done differently?

GED DOCHERTY: And it's that taking ownership of all of

GED DOCHERTY: those aspects of your life and your

GED DOCHERTY: behaviour, owning it, talking

GED DOCHERTY: about it, sharing it, reflecting on it,

GED DOCHERTY: being curious, asking questions, asking

GED DOCHERTY: for advice, connecting to the community.

GED DOCHERTY: And that's another thing that is really

GED DOCHERTY: integral to the success of our For Baby's

GED DOCHERTY: Sake families.

GED DOCHERTY: We as a team actively promote

GED DOCHERTY: connection to the community and what the

GED DOCHERTY: services in Blackpool have to offer.

GED DOCHERTY: There is a whole portfolio of

GED DOCHERTY: stuff out there for those families to

GED DOCHERTY: connect to.

COLIN SMY: So there's a couple of things in unpicking

COLIN SMY: Jake and Charlotte's story from when we've

COLIN SMY: watched it and what you just said there.

COLIN SMY: And I know I've spoken already about, you know,

COLIN SMY: Better Start and the Centre for Early Child

COLIN SMY: Development. We talk about our pillars and we've

COLIN SMY: covered social emotional development, speech and

COLIN SMY: language. But there is also in there about

COLIN SMY: the pregnancy period and why healthy gestation

COLIN SMY: and birth is so vital to the baby.

COLIN SMY: And you've said about being in utero.

COLIN SMY: But in Jake and Charlotte's story, obviously

COLIN SMY: with Jake being incarcerated, and

COLIN SMY: a factor that we talk about regularly is

COLIN SMY: understanding what a trauma-informed approach is

COLIN SMY: and trauma-informed approach doesn't always just

COLIN SMY: have to be about the child or just about mum as

COLIN SMY: typically happens. In your example, we're

COLIN SMY: talking about dad, and I know in the video, both

COLIN SMY: Jake and Charlotte, but particularly Jake, talk

COLIN SMY: about past traumas they've experienced and how

COLIN SMY: that's affected their upbringing and then

COLIN SMY: their own parenting styles and standards.

KAREN: Can I ask as well, when we're talking about

KAREN: parenting and we do some of that reflection work,

KAREN: and we're talking about our childhood experiences

KAREN: and how we were parented.

KAREN: Have you found that helpful, unpicking some of that

KAREN: experiences about what it's like for you as

KAREN: children.

JAKE: Yeah, I found it very helpful.

JAKE: I mean, I've... I never realised I've been

JAKE: always a supporter of my parent

JAKE: and what my

JAKE: childhood was.

JAKE: But then when I've looked back at some of...

JAKE: you know, as you call it, the adverse childhood

JAKE: experiences, and looking back on them and thinking

JAKE: maybe this wasn't quite right and maybe that wasn't

JAKE: quite right. Where I've just justified things my

JAKE: whole life, I can kind of look back and think, "that

JAKE: wasn't right, so let's not do that this time".

JAKE: Because a lot of parents do take what their parent or

JAKE: the parents have brought into their lives and they

JAKE: think, "oh, because my parent brought me up, this is

JAKE: how I'm going to do it with my child." And that's

JAKE: not always the best option.

CHARLOTTE: I think when you've experienced something as

CHARLOTTE: a child, it becomes normalised,

CHARLOTTE: and the work that we've done with For Baby's

CHARLOTTE: Sake has made me realise some of the things that

CHARLOTTE: I may have witnessed as a child aren't normal

CHARLOTTE: and that has helped me to realise

CHARLOTTE: that that's not what I want Isabella to witness

CHARLOTTE: as she's growing up.

CHARLOTTE: Yeah.

JAKE: Touching on what I said earlier about my

JAKE: parent, my childhood, and how

JAKE: it made me as a person feeling like no

JAKE: one wanted me. You know?

JAKE: And with our relationship, how I'd ring constantly

JAKE: and need your reassurance and

JAKE: your attention.

JAKE: I think doing this work and you doing this work

JAKE: yourself and getting that self-belief

JAKE: and making you more

JAKE: confident. You know, that confidence that I probably

JAKE: brought down with with all the reassurance I needed.

JAKE: You building that back up, and me being able to build

JAKE: that up at the same time rather than you building it

JAKE: up or me breaking it down; both of our

JAKE: competencies rise and it kind of just—

JAKE: we bounce off each other and able to come up with

JAKE: solutions to problems, something we wouldn't have

JAKE: been able to do before. And making

JAKE: us being that way and having that self-belief

JAKE: in ourselves as parents and us

JAKE: being in a relationship is kind of just made

JAKE: Isabella the girl she is today, you know, happy,

JAKE: thriving, you know, in

JAKE: every minute of your life.

JAKE: Which is the way it should be.

COLIN SMY: By you guys having been aware of that and the

COLIN SMY: way you've worked and spoke to them, I know they

COLIN SMY: said they've worked with different people

COLIN SMY: independently, but them being able to talk about

COLIN SMY: their work together so that there's no secrets.

COLIN SMY: And it removes those issues about where they may

COLIN SMY: have come across either trauma in their own

COLIN SMY: childhood that they've experienced directly at

COLIN SMY: the hands of individuals, or trauma that they've

COLIN SMY: experienced in interacting with services as

COLIN SMY: well, which is just as difficult for some

COLIN SMY: families to come across. And then bringing that

COLIN SMY: all back together has helped to knit them

COLIN SMY: into part of the community and make them a

COLIN SMY: community within their own right and their own

COLIN SMY: family, so they're able to address those traumas

COLIN SMY: that they've got and not deflect that onto

COLIN SMY: their baby. Which I think then brings us up to

COLIN SMY: speed with where we might talk about how

COLIN SMY: does our work in that first 1001 days intervene

COLIN SMY: and prevent or support safeguarding

COLIN SMY: of children, I should say. So, where you've

COLIN SMY: brought us up to speed with Jake and Charlotte's

COLIN SMY: story, where they're up to now — without that,

COLIN SMY: what might we be looking at in terms of

COLIN SMY: safeguarding? So what's so vital about the

COLIN SMY: work we've done in that 1001 days early doors

COLIN SMY: that's safeguarded against safeguarding in the

COLIN SMY: long-term, if that makes sense.

GED DOCHERTY: Yeah, it does make sense.

GED DOCHERTY: And I guess we could break it down.

GED DOCHERTY: So thinking about the question that you've

GED DOCHERTY: asked me. I think all of the things that we

GED DOCHERTY: do — the For Baby's Sake team do — which

GED DOCHERTY: supports safeguarding, is

GED DOCHERTY: that we have the capacity to

GED DOCHERTY: be able to build a

GED DOCHERTY: trusting relationship, a sustained,

GED DOCHERTY: trusting relationship with our parents.

GED DOCHERTY: The nature of social work is that people

GED DOCHERTY: will come and go. The nature of social work

GED DOCHERTY: is that a case may travel through

GED DOCHERTY: different teams. So there may be the team who

GED DOCHERTY: first meets the family, does a pre-birth

GED DOCHERTY: assessment, and then the assessment is

GED DOCHERTY: concluded. It's onto the next stage.

GED DOCHERTY: That social worker passes that family onto

GED DOCHERTY: the next social worker, who will do

GED DOCHERTY: their part of their process.

GED DOCHERTY: But we have continuously been

GED DOCHERTY: the golden thread through that situation.

GED DOCHERTY: Our practice-based approach

GED DOCHERTY: is something which makes parents

GED DOCHERTY: themselves feel safe about.

GED DOCHERTY: Parents will often say in meetings, "Will

GED DOCHERTY: you tell them? Because you know, you know

GED DOCHERTY: what I'm talking about." In terms of the work

GED DOCHERTY: you and I often in co-production,

GED DOCHERTY: born into care, all of that stuff —

GED DOCHERTY: consistently, parents will say they

GED DOCHERTY: are wary of telling their story

GED DOCHERTY: repetitively.

GED DOCHERTY: And some of our parents have been doing that

GED DOCHERTY: since they were children because they may

GED DOCHERTY: have been involved in the system themselves,

GED DOCHERTY: subject to child protection plans.

GED DOCHERTY: They may be care experienced and for a

GED DOCHERTY: significant period of time they have

GED DOCHERTY: been telling their story.

GED DOCHERTY: In our trauma-informed approach, we are very

GED DOCHERTY: much led by them.

GED DOCHERTY: It's a person-centred approach which gives

GED DOCHERTY: them the time and space to be able to

GED DOCHERTY: process their experiences. In giving

GED DOCHERTY: time and space and supporting that person to

GED DOCHERTY: process, understand, come to terms

GED DOCHERTY: with, that in and of itself

GED DOCHERTY: reduces — or can reduce —

GED DOCHERTY: lots of harmful behaviours.

GED DOCHERTY: And it starts with the parent

GED DOCHERTY: recognising their own harmful behaviours

GED DOCHERTY: and how they impact on self

GED DOCHERTY: and others, and that is the foundation

GED DOCHERTY: of your safeguarding. If you can keep

GED DOCHERTY: yourself and your partner safe and you have a

GED DOCHERTY: loving, healthy, secure

GED DOCHERTY: and strong attachment to your baby, you

GED DOCHERTY: are going to keep your baby safe.

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): That's the end of part one of our

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): discussion on supporting parents

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): through adversity. In part two,

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): available now, Colin and Ged

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): will talk about why it's so important

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): to involve fathers in early

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): intervention.

CONCLUSION: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning

CONCLUSION: podcast.

CONCLUSION: At the time of recording this episode, content

CONCLUSION: was up to date but the world of safeguarding

CONCLUSION: and child protection is ever changing.

CONCLUSION: So, if you're looking for the most current

CONCLUSION: safeguarding and child protection training,

CONCLUSION: information or resources, please visit

CONCLUSION: our website for professionals at

CONCLUSION: nspcc.org.uk/learning.