INTRODUCTION: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where
INTRODUCTION: we share learning and expertise in child
INTRODUCTION: protection from inside and outside of the
INTRODUCTION: organisation.
INTRODUCTION: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection
INTRODUCTION: and share good practice on how we can all
INTRODUCTION: work together to keep babies, children and
INTRODUCTION: young people safe.
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Welcome to the NSPCC Learning
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Podcast. Today's two-part
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): episode is all about early
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): intervention and supporting new
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): parents through adversity, to
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): ensure the best outcomes for
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): them and their child.
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): You're going to hear a conversation between
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Colin Smy and Ged Docherty.
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Colin works at the NSPCC's
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Blackpool Better Start Service.
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Blackpool Better Start is a
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): 10-year national lottery funded
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): programme to transform services
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): in the town and change
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): childhoods through lived experience,
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): science and evidence.
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Ged Docherty is a Team Manager
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): at one of Blackpool Better Start's
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): 40 funded services, For Baby's
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Sake. For Baby's Sake is a
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): programme for expectant parents
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): that takes a whole family approach,
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): starting in pregnancy and
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): dealing with the entire cycle
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): and history of domestic abuse,
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): identifying and directly
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): addressing the trauma or traumas
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): that lie at the heart of the problem.
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Colin and Ged's conversation,
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): recorded in September 2023,
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): will cover the importance of
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): the first 1001 days of a
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): child's life and how For Baby's
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Sake uses therapeutic,
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): trauma-informed and strengths-based
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): approaches to support parents
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): going through adversity during
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): the early years.
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Whilst the discussion focuses
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): on the early years, the techniques
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): that Ged mentions in this podcast
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): should be useful inspiration
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): for professionals working with
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): families at any stage of the
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): parental journey.
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): The discussion will be interspersed
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): with clips from an interview we
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): filmed earlier this year with
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Jake and Charlotte, two parents
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): who are participating in the
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): For Baby's Sake programme.
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Jake and Charlotte are parents
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): to a little girl, Isabella, who
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): you may hear playing and babbling
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): in the background of the recordings.
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): The couple faced adversity when
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Charlotte was pregnant with Isabella — Jake
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): was in prison for domestic abuse
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): — but For Baby's Sake worked with
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): them to overcome these challenges,
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): better handle complex emotions
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): and form trusting relationships
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): in order to best care for baby
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Isabella. As part of the
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): programme, Jake and Charlotte each
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): have a therapeutic practitioner,
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Owen and Karen, who you will
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): also hear talking in these
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): clips. In the first clip, Jake
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): and Charlotte explain how they came
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): to work with For Baby's Sake.
OWEN: So Jake, what were your expectations of working with
OWEN: For Baby's Sake?
JAKE: Um, well, obviously,
JAKE: as you know, at the time I was in custody when
JAKE: the referral went in, and Isabella wasn't born yet.
JAKE: I was struggling with building a healthy relationship
JAKE: with, obviously, with my daughter and
JAKE: my partner Charlotte.
JAKE: And you know, so I was
JAKE: just expecting for just help to try and, you
JAKE: know, help me understand my emotions and understand
JAKE: how to be a dad, you know, and how to make those
JAKE: relationships work.
OWEN: Brilliant. And how have you found the service of far
OWEN: then?
JAKE: Really good. I mean, as I touched on a minute ago,
JAKE: obviously you yourself came to see me while I was in
JAKE: custody. We did a bit of work then, and then
JAKE: everything carried on after release as well.
JAKE: I was expecting maybe a bit of time, like, to get
JAKE: things sorted out, but it was seamless and then, you
JAKE: know, I continue obviously to work together today,
JAKE: which is great.
KAREN: So what was the experience like for you, Charlotte?
KAREN: We've just heard from Jake. What was the experience
KAREN: like for you?
CHARLOTTE: Well, it made me feel like I could speak
CHARLOTTE: about things that were bothering me in a safe
CHARLOTTE: space and that
CHARLOTTE: it would teach us to be able to do that
CHARLOTTE: on our own in the future rather than with
CHARLOTTE: you two next to us. And it just gives us that
CHARLOTTE: — I don't really use the word lesson — but it
CHARLOTTE: just helps us be able to
CHARLOTTE: learn how to do that on our own and it
CHARLOTTE: will benefit us in the future because
CHARLOTTE: that's something that we can use constantly
CHARLOTTE: around Isabella or, like I said, without you
CHARLOTTE: there.
COLIN SMY: Welcome, everybody.
COLIN SMY: We're here talking about supporting parents
COLIN SMY: today. My name is Colin Smy and I'm a
COLIN SMY: Development Manager at Blackpool Better Start.
COLIN SMY: Blackpool Better Start is a ten-year lottery
COLIN SMY: funded programme. We're working with families
COLIN SMY: in deprived areas from pregnancy to age
COLIN SMY: four and we're trying to identify the
COLIN SMY: opportunities for them to improve their life
COLIN SMY: chances across a range of things, including
COLIN SMY: health, diet, nutrition, school readiness,
COLIN SMY: social emotional wellbeing and healthy gestation
COLIN SMY: in birth and pregnancy.
COLIN SMY: With me today is Ged Docherty.
COLIN SMY: Would you like to introduce yourself, Ged.
GED DOCHERTY: Afternoon, everyone. My name's Ged Docherty
GED DOCHERTY: and I'm the Team Manager of the Blackpool
GED DOCHERTY: For Baby's Sake team.
GED DOCHERTY: We are a specialist
GED DOCHERTY: thematic team who work in
GED DOCHERTY: a trauma-informed, empathic
GED DOCHERTY: way with pregnant couples
GED DOCHERTY: who are experiencing domestic violence,
GED DOCHERTY: either currently or in the past, in
GED DOCHERTY: their relationship.
GED DOCHERTY: We offer a unique approach
GED DOCHERTY: into how we work
GED DOCHERTY: with those co-parents in that
GED DOCHERTY: mum gets a worker and dad gets a worker.
GED DOCHERTY: And we follow a specific
GED DOCHERTY: evidence-based programme approach
GED DOCHERTY: to the work. We start in pregnancy
GED DOCHERTY: around viable pregnancy time, so
GED DOCHERTY: 15 weeks onwards, and we can
GED DOCHERTY: remain working with that family with their
GED DOCHERTY: consent until the child's second
GED DOCHERTY: birthday — so the first critical 1001
GED DOCHERTY: days of a child's life.
COLIN SMY: That's fantastic, Ged.
COLIN SMY: And that leads nicely into the first two areas
COLIN SMY: we're talking about. In Better Start and the
COLIN SMY: Centre for Early Child Development, we like to
COLIN SMY: always talk about the 1001 days and why they're
COLIN SMY: so critical.
COLIN SMY: What for you — and we've spoken about this
COLIN SMY: regularly at different times — but what for you
COLIN SMY: is so important about those first 1001 days that
COLIN SMY: you see in families and the challenges in
COLIN SMY: Blackpool?
GED DOCHERTY: We both know, because we've worked in the
GED DOCHERTY: town for a very long time, that there are
GED DOCHERTY: lots of complex issues which
GED DOCHERTY: are unique to the families
GED DOCHERTY: in our town.
GED DOCHERTY: Blackpool is top of the list for all
GED DOCHERTY: the right reasons and it's the top of the
GED DOCHERTY: list for all the wrong reasons.
GED DOCHERTY: Some of the families that we serve live in
GED DOCHERTY: the poorest ward in England,
GED DOCHERTY: so poverty in and of itself has a massive
GED DOCHERTY: detrimental impact on a child
GED DOCHERTY: and their family's outcomes without
GED DOCHERTY: the additional complex needs associated
GED DOCHERTY: with their parents, their parent's childhood,
GED DOCHERTY: and their parent's past.
GED DOCHERTY: I am a social worker by profession and I've
GED DOCHERTY: worked with children and families for 30
GED DOCHERTY: years, and across that spectrum of my
GED DOCHERTY: practice, my learning has
GED DOCHERTY: continued, grown, developed our
GED DOCHERTY: understanding of children and babies
GED DOCHERTY: and families functioning and their
GED DOCHERTY: capacity has grown and developed.
GED DOCHERTY: And the For Baby's Sake model of practice,
GED DOCHERTY: which was developed some ten years ago,
GED DOCHERTY: clearly tells us that the work
GED DOCHERTY: that has been undertaken with families —
GED DOCHERTY: targeted thematic work which takes
GED DOCHERTY: into account intergenerational
GED DOCHERTY: cycles of harm — that how we can support
GED DOCHERTY: families to break those cycles and that we
GED DOCHERTY: can potentially improve a child's
GED DOCHERTY: healthy outcomes, emotional
GED DOCHERTY: and social, across their lifespan.
GED DOCHERTY: And that is significant
GED DOCHERTY: beyond comprehension.
COLIN SMY: Yeah, and there's a number of
COLIN SMY: reports that we come across quite regularly, and
COLIN SMY: it certainly made it to a parliamentary level
COLIN SMY: now, where we've seen start for life funding
COLIN SMY: recently looking at the first 1001 days
COLIN SMY: and the impact on that. We talk about word gaps.
COLIN SMY: Children and babies are quite often not exposed
COLIN SMY: to that speech and language and the
COLIN SMY: opportunities to learn and be able to
COLIN SMY: communicate. And we know that the brain develops
COLIN SMY: most rapidly at that early stage; starts out
COLIN SMY: quite smooth and flat and all those neurones
COLIN SMY: firing about with all the input that goes on.
COLIN SMY: It's really important that we've got the
COLIN SMY: opportunity for those babies to experience
COLIN SMY: what's required for the inputs without it being
COLIN SMY: over the top, without being negative, without
COLIN SMY: being toxic.
COLIN SMY: It's a bit like finding a Goldilocks zone
COLIN SMY: sometimes, isn't it? But it doesn't have to
COLIN SMY: quite that complicated — not astrophysics — does
COLIN SMY: it?
GED DOCHERTY: No. And it's really significant that you
GED DOCHERTY: mention that, because integral to the work
GED DOCHERTY: that we do in For Baby's Sake is that we
GED DOCHERTY: support parents to understand via
GED DOCHERTY: the Alberta wellness brain
GED DOCHERTY: training — accredited training
GED DOCHERTY: that is free for anyone — is that we support
GED DOCHERTY: our parents in the way that parents now
GED DOCHERTY: know the harmful impacts of
GED DOCHERTY: smoking and alcohol during pregnancy.
GED DOCHERTY: They now understand the impacts on their
GED DOCHERTY: baby's developing brain of the stress
GED DOCHERTY: hormone cortisol, which can be present
GED DOCHERTY: if someone is a victim experiencing
GED DOCHERTY: consistent forms of domestic violence
GED DOCHERTY: and other associated abuse behaviours.
GED DOCHERTY: So when we capture parents at that
GED DOCHERTY: critical moment in time, whilst the baby's in
GED DOCHERTY: utero, and we develop their understanding of
GED DOCHERTY: the harm that can be caused, people then can
GED DOCHERTY: make safer choices.
GED DOCHERTY: In the past, the countless times that I would
GED DOCHERTY: have conversations with parents and they
GED DOCHERTY: would say, "what you on about?
GED DOCHERTY: The kids were upstairs," or "well, the baby's
GED DOCHERTY: inside. What harm is it coming to?
GED DOCHERTY: I never touched her." But they have no
GED DOCHERTY: concept of the harm that was physically
GED DOCHERTY: taking place because that baby's mother was
GED DOCHERTY: stressed. So that is a significant
GED DOCHERTY: piece of learning that we undertake with
GED DOCHERTY: parents at that critical moment in time.
GED DOCHERTY: And then when we've established that
GED DOCHERTY: groundwork, understanding, that
GED DOCHERTY: then forms the basis.
GED DOCHERTY: That's like our foundation.
GED DOCHERTY: And then we begin to build upon and build
GED DOCHERTY: upon and bring all of the other learning in
GED DOCHERTY: too; about people's capacity to learn
GED DOCHERTY: how to self-soothe, self-regulate, make safer
GED DOCHERTY: choices, function in a different way,
GED DOCHERTY: understand their past and the impact that
GED DOCHERTY: their parents' past and the grandparents'
GED DOCHERTY: past has had on their functioning
GED DOCHERTY: and how they deal with situations.
COLIN SMY: Yeah, and I think what's interesting is how
COLIN SMY: we're able to move through the pillars of what
COLIN SMY: Better Start's looking at there and introduce it
COLIN SMY: around speech, language and communication and
COLIN SMY: being able to verbalise emotions.
COLIN SMY: And actually what you're able to talk about
COLIN SMY: there, moving into is the social and emotional
COLIN SMY: development we're looking at, and that's the
COLIN SMY: critical— one of the other critical elements of
COLIN SMY: that first 1001 days: that babies
COLIN SMY: learn about how to regulate emotion, how to
COLIN SMY: build relationships with caregivers.
COLIN SMY: And I'm not going to try and be clever and list
COLIN SMY: all the chemicals off, cortisol and oxytocin
COLIN SMY: and the other ones, but they're all firing and
COLIN SMY: going away about how they manage those
COLIN SMY: relationships. And it's interesting when you say
COLIN SMY: about self-soothing as well, as adults how
COLIN SMY: we do it, but it's understanding that as
COLIN SMY: children and as babies, when we're a caregiver,
COLIN SMY: and we can see the difference between those
COLIN SMY: children, can't we, that we work with in the
COLIN SMY: families who are overfamiliar,
COLIN SMY: underfamiliar...
COLIN SMY: The behaviours around different people are
COLIN SMY: different because they might come to— when we
COLIN SMY: talk about self-soothing and crying sometimes
COLIN SMY: actually it's understanding what that baby's
COLIN SMY: telling you by crying.
COLIN SMY: They're not using words and our language, but
COLIN SMY: they're using the language that's open to them
COLIN SMY: to try to get attention, to try to get
COLIN SMY: affection, to try to get the love, and
COLIN SMY: understanding that actually it's okay for babies
COLIN SMY: to cry. And you responding
COLIN SMY: to them isn't spoiling them.
GED DOCHERTY: Yeah. It's okay for parents to
GED DOCHERTY: say, "my baby crying is stressing
GED DOCHERTY: me out." We know, because we talk all the
GED DOCHERTY: time about working with especially the dads
GED DOCHERTY: in our town — and I don't mean to generalise
GED DOCHERTY: or make it gender specific — but we know
GED DOCHERTY: that there are dads in our town whose
GED DOCHERTY: capacity to know how to be the best parent
GED DOCHERTY: possible is limited, and that's
GED DOCHERTY: because of structural inequalities
GED DOCHERTY: within the service provision in our town.
GED DOCHERTY: Blackpool is making huge strides forward in
GED DOCHERTY: all of the new services and training
GED DOCHERTY: opportunities for parents, run by parents,
GED DOCHERTY: run by professionals, that everyone can
GED DOCHERTY: access. And our dads are gaining
GED DOCHERTY: confidence in how they are
GED DOCHERTY: approaching their role as a parent and
GED DOCHERTY: a partner. And a partner in terms of being
GED DOCHERTY: a co-parent, not just a partner to
GED DOCHERTY: your significant other.
GED DOCHERTY: It's about the partnership of parenting
GED DOCHERTY: that baby.
COLIN SMY: And we saw that in the
COLIN SMY: recording from a couple of your parents — Jake
COLIN SMY: and Charlotte.
GED DOCHERTY: Yeah.
COLIN SMY: Jake talks quite a bit.
COLIN SMY: And it's interesting because when he's been
COLIN SMY: through For Baby's Sake with your team — I think
COLIN SMY: it's Owen he worked with wasn't it — and he's
COLIN SMY: actually reflected on the way he's changed and
COLIN SMY: the impact of his parenting before, the impact
COLIN SMY: of parenting afterwards, but also the impact of
COLIN SMY: his behaviour on his partner.
COLIN SMY: So he stopped thinking to himself "he's dad on
COLIN SMY: his own, she's mum on her own, and that's baby
COLIN SMY: on her own", and started thinking of themselves
COLIN SMY: as a family, as a triad, and all reliant on one
COLIN SMY: another.
JAKE: Me in the past, being obviously a perpetrator of
JAKE: domestic violence and domestic abuse, it's been,
JAKE: you know, my whole perception of a relationship
JAKE: was completely out of order and wrong.
JAKE: It wasn't healthy. It's never been healthy and
JAKE: it's kind of given me ways to change
JAKE: that and how to
JAKE: realise that, you know, things are normal.
JAKE: Like if Charlotte needs a bit of time to just go
JAKE: away, have her time, it's okay for that
JAKE: to happen. Instead of me being...
JAKE: Wanting to solve things there and then and stuff
JAKE: and I think that passes on. If someone's been violent
JAKE: towards a partner before.
JAKE: You know, it can easily happen to a family
JAKE: member, you know, a child that
JAKE: is there. I mean, someone who's violent and who has a
JAKE: violent outburst doesn't think what he's doing at the
JAKE: time nine times out of ten.
JAKE: It's just the red mist descends.
JAKE: The violent outburst happens. And then before you
JAKE: know it, you know, my child
JAKE: could be hurt.
JAKE: My partner could be hurt.
JAKE: And, I guess, trying to turn that
JAKE: violence into a more
JAKE: better managed behaviour that deals with that emotion
JAKE: that you're feeling is one of the best things that
JAKE: will keep that child safe and
JAKE: stop anything happening that could harm
JAKE: her.
GED DOCHERTY: Jake had significant adversity in his
GED DOCHERTY: past. And when we first met him, he was
GED DOCHERTY: serving a prison sentence.
GED DOCHERTY: But we were still able to work with him
GED DOCHERTY: whilst he was in prison.
GED DOCHERTY: We had virtual contact with him.
GED DOCHERTY: Owen went to see him face-to-face and did
GED DOCHERTY: programme work in the prison with him.
GED DOCHERTY: And then that work seamlessly continued when
GED DOCHERTY: he came out back into the community and
GED DOCHERTY: was living in his own place.
GED DOCHERTY: They were living separately at that time.
GED DOCHERTY: The baby had been subject to a child
GED DOCHERTY: protection plan and the evidence that was
GED DOCHERTY: being generated via the work that him and his
GED DOCHERTY: partner Charlotte were doing — our consistent
GED DOCHERTY: contact and feeding it into
GED DOCHERTY: that statutory social work process — to
GED DOCHERTY: the point where I came back from leave today
GED DOCHERTY: and was copied into an email, and the family
GED DOCHERTY: have stepped down to universal
GED DOCHERTY: services because there is no presenting
GED DOCHERTY: evidence of any risk to that child
GED DOCHERTY: because their parents have been utterly
GED DOCHERTY: committed to making those changes.
GED DOCHERTY: But you used the word reflect when you were
GED DOCHERTY: talking about some of the stuff that Jake had
GED DOCHERTY: said. Jake and Charlotte have
GED DOCHERTY: embraced the concept of reflection,
GED DOCHERTY: and they've used that to make their
GED DOCHERTY: situation safer, because they are
GED DOCHERTY: actively thinking about decisions that
GED DOCHERTY: they've made in the past, decisions they're
GED DOCHERTY: making in the present.
GED DOCHERTY: What is the right thing to do?
GED DOCHERTY: What is the safest thing to do?
GED DOCHERTY: Why did we end up in this situation?
GED DOCHERTY: What caused that to happen?
GED DOCHERTY: What could have been done differently?
GED DOCHERTY: And it's that taking ownership of all of
GED DOCHERTY: those aspects of your life and your
GED DOCHERTY: behaviour, owning it, talking
GED DOCHERTY: about it, sharing it, reflecting on it,
GED DOCHERTY: being curious, asking questions, asking
GED DOCHERTY: for advice, connecting to the community.
GED DOCHERTY: And that's another thing that is really
GED DOCHERTY: integral to the success of our For Baby's
GED DOCHERTY: Sake families.
GED DOCHERTY: We as a team actively promote
GED DOCHERTY: connection to the community and what the
GED DOCHERTY: services in Blackpool have to offer.
GED DOCHERTY: There is a whole portfolio of
GED DOCHERTY: stuff out there for those families to
GED DOCHERTY: connect to.
COLIN SMY: So there's a couple of things in unpicking
COLIN SMY: Jake and Charlotte's story from when we've
COLIN SMY: watched it and what you just said there.
COLIN SMY: And I know I've spoken already about, you know,
COLIN SMY: Better Start and the Centre for Early Child
COLIN SMY: Development. We talk about our pillars and we've
COLIN SMY: covered social emotional development, speech and
COLIN SMY: language. But there is also in there about
COLIN SMY: the pregnancy period and why healthy gestation
COLIN SMY: and birth is so vital to the baby.
COLIN SMY: And you've said about being in utero.
COLIN SMY: But in Jake and Charlotte's story, obviously
COLIN SMY: with Jake being incarcerated, and
COLIN SMY: a factor that we talk about regularly is
COLIN SMY: understanding what a trauma-informed approach is
COLIN SMY: and trauma-informed approach doesn't always just
COLIN SMY: have to be about the child or just about mum as
COLIN SMY: typically happens. In your example, we're
COLIN SMY: talking about dad, and I know in the video, both
COLIN SMY: Jake and Charlotte, but particularly Jake, talk
COLIN SMY: about past traumas they've experienced and how
COLIN SMY: that's affected their upbringing and then
COLIN SMY: their own parenting styles and standards.
KAREN: Can I ask as well, when we're talking about
KAREN: parenting and we do some of that reflection work,
KAREN: and we're talking about our childhood experiences
KAREN: and how we were parented.
KAREN: Have you found that helpful, unpicking some of that
KAREN: experiences about what it's like for you as
KAREN: children.
JAKE: Yeah, I found it very helpful.
JAKE: I mean, I've... I never realised I've been
JAKE: always a supporter of my parent
JAKE: and what my
JAKE: childhood was.
JAKE: But then when I've looked back at some of...
JAKE: you know, as you call it, the adverse childhood
JAKE: experiences, and looking back on them and thinking
JAKE: maybe this wasn't quite right and maybe that wasn't
JAKE: quite right. Where I've just justified things my
JAKE: whole life, I can kind of look back and think, "that
JAKE: wasn't right, so let's not do that this time".
JAKE: Because a lot of parents do take what their parent or
JAKE: the parents have brought into their lives and they
JAKE: think, "oh, because my parent brought me up, this is
JAKE: how I'm going to do it with my child." And that's
JAKE: not always the best option.
CHARLOTTE: I think when you've experienced something as
CHARLOTTE: a child, it becomes normalised,
CHARLOTTE: and the work that we've done with For Baby's
CHARLOTTE: Sake has made me realise some of the things that
CHARLOTTE: I may have witnessed as a child aren't normal
CHARLOTTE: and that has helped me to realise
CHARLOTTE: that that's not what I want Isabella to witness
CHARLOTTE: as she's growing up.
CHARLOTTE: Yeah.
JAKE: Touching on what I said earlier about my
JAKE: parent, my childhood, and how
JAKE: it made me as a person feeling like no
JAKE: one wanted me. You know?
JAKE: And with our relationship, how I'd ring constantly
JAKE: and need your reassurance and
JAKE: your attention.
JAKE: I think doing this work and you doing this work
JAKE: yourself and getting that self-belief
JAKE: and making you more
JAKE: confident. You know, that confidence that I probably
JAKE: brought down with with all the reassurance I needed.
JAKE: You building that back up, and me being able to build
JAKE: that up at the same time rather than you building it
JAKE: up or me breaking it down; both of our
JAKE: competencies rise and it kind of just—
JAKE: we bounce off each other and able to come up with
JAKE: solutions to problems, something we wouldn't have
JAKE: been able to do before. And making
JAKE: us being that way and having that self-belief
JAKE: in ourselves as parents and us
JAKE: being in a relationship is kind of just made
JAKE: Isabella the girl she is today, you know, happy,
JAKE: thriving, you know, in
JAKE: every minute of your life.
JAKE: Which is the way it should be.
COLIN SMY: By you guys having been aware of that and the
COLIN SMY: way you've worked and spoke to them, I know they
COLIN SMY: said they've worked with different people
COLIN SMY: independently, but them being able to talk about
COLIN SMY: their work together so that there's no secrets.
COLIN SMY: And it removes those issues about where they may
COLIN SMY: have come across either trauma in their own
COLIN SMY: childhood that they've experienced directly at
COLIN SMY: the hands of individuals, or trauma that they've
COLIN SMY: experienced in interacting with services as
COLIN SMY: well, which is just as difficult for some
COLIN SMY: families to come across. And then bringing that
COLIN SMY: all back together has helped to knit them
COLIN SMY: into part of the community and make them a
COLIN SMY: community within their own right and their own
COLIN SMY: family, so they're able to address those traumas
COLIN SMY: that they've got and not deflect that onto
COLIN SMY: their baby. Which I think then brings us up to
COLIN SMY: speed with where we might talk about how
COLIN SMY: does our work in that first 1001 days intervene
COLIN SMY: and prevent or support safeguarding
COLIN SMY: of children, I should say. So, where you've
COLIN SMY: brought us up to speed with Jake and Charlotte's
COLIN SMY: story, where they're up to now — without that,
COLIN SMY: what might we be looking at in terms of
COLIN SMY: safeguarding? So what's so vital about the
COLIN SMY: work we've done in that 1001 days early doors
COLIN SMY: that's safeguarded against safeguarding in the
COLIN SMY: long-term, if that makes sense.
GED DOCHERTY: Yeah, it does make sense.
GED DOCHERTY: And I guess we could break it down.
GED DOCHERTY: So thinking about the question that you've
GED DOCHERTY: asked me. I think all of the things that we
GED DOCHERTY: do — the For Baby's Sake team do — which
GED DOCHERTY: supports safeguarding, is
GED DOCHERTY: that we have the capacity to
GED DOCHERTY: be able to build a
GED DOCHERTY: trusting relationship, a sustained,
GED DOCHERTY: trusting relationship with our parents.
GED DOCHERTY: The nature of social work is that people
GED DOCHERTY: will come and go. The nature of social work
GED DOCHERTY: is that a case may travel through
GED DOCHERTY: different teams. So there may be the team who
GED DOCHERTY: first meets the family, does a pre-birth
GED DOCHERTY: assessment, and then the assessment is
GED DOCHERTY: concluded. It's onto the next stage.
GED DOCHERTY: That social worker passes that family onto
GED DOCHERTY: the next social worker, who will do
GED DOCHERTY: their part of their process.
GED DOCHERTY: But we have continuously been
GED DOCHERTY: the golden thread through that situation.
GED DOCHERTY: Our practice-based approach
GED DOCHERTY: is something which makes parents
GED DOCHERTY: themselves feel safe about.
GED DOCHERTY: Parents will often say in meetings, "Will
GED DOCHERTY: you tell them? Because you know, you know
GED DOCHERTY: what I'm talking about." In terms of the work
GED DOCHERTY: you and I often in co-production,
GED DOCHERTY: born into care, all of that stuff —
GED DOCHERTY: consistently, parents will say they
GED DOCHERTY: are wary of telling their story
GED DOCHERTY: repetitively.
GED DOCHERTY: And some of our parents have been doing that
GED DOCHERTY: since they were children because they may
GED DOCHERTY: have been involved in the system themselves,
GED DOCHERTY: subject to child protection plans.
GED DOCHERTY: They may be care experienced and for a
GED DOCHERTY: significant period of time they have
GED DOCHERTY: been telling their story.
GED DOCHERTY: In our trauma-informed approach, we are very
GED DOCHERTY: much led by them.
GED DOCHERTY: It's a person-centred approach which gives
GED DOCHERTY: them the time and space to be able to
GED DOCHERTY: process their experiences. In giving
GED DOCHERTY: time and space and supporting that person to
GED DOCHERTY: process, understand, come to terms
GED DOCHERTY: with, that in and of itself
GED DOCHERTY: reduces — or can reduce —
GED DOCHERTY: lots of harmful behaviours.
GED DOCHERTY: And it starts with the parent
GED DOCHERTY: recognising their own harmful behaviours
GED DOCHERTY: and how they impact on self
GED DOCHERTY: and others, and that is the foundation
GED DOCHERTY: of your safeguarding. If you can keep
GED DOCHERTY: yourself and your partner safe and you have a
GED DOCHERTY: loving, healthy, secure
GED DOCHERTY: and strong attachment to your baby, you
GED DOCHERTY: are going to keep your baby safe.
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): That's the end of part one of our
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): discussion on supporting parents
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): through adversity. In part two,
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): available now, Colin and Ged
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): will talk about why it's so important
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): to involve fathers in early
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): intervention.
CONCLUSION: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning
CONCLUSION: podcast.
CONCLUSION: At the time of recording this episode, content
CONCLUSION: was up to date but the world of safeguarding
CONCLUSION: and child protection is ever changing.
CONCLUSION: So, if you're looking for the most current
CONCLUSION: safeguarding and child protection training,
CONCLUSION: information or resources, please visit
CONCLUSION: our website for professionals at
CONCLUSION: nspcc.org.uk/learning.