INTRODUCTION: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where

INTRODUCTION: we share learning and expertise in child

INTRODUCTION: protection from inside and outside of the

INTRODUCTION: organisation.

INTRODUCTION: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection

INTRODUCTION: and share good practice on how we can all

INTRODUCTION: work together to keep babies, children and

INTRODUCTION: young people safe.

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Welcome to the NSPCC Learning

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Podcast. This is the second

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): half of a conversation between

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Colin Smy from the NSPCC's

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Blackpool Better Start Service

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): and Ged Docherty, Team Manager

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): at For Baby's Sake in Blackpool.

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): The discussion, recorded in

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): September 2023, looks at how

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): For Baby's Sake uses therapeutic,

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): trauma-informed and strengths-based

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): approaches to support parents

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): going through adversity during

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): the early years.

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): In this part, Colin and Ged

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): will talk about why it's so important

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): to involve fathers in early

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): intervention. And if you

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): haven't listened to the first part of

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): the conversation yet, we advise

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): you do that before listening to

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): this episode.

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): We rejoin the conversation with

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Colin explaining why early

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): intervention is so important.

COLIN SMY: Well, what we're trying to do is reduce the

COLIN SMY: requirement of hitting the social care, you

COLIN SMY: know, after something's happened. We want to be

COLIN SMY: catching families and supporting them before

COLIN SMY: it's happened. And that's sometimes a challenge.

COLIN SMY: Early intervention and For Baby's Sake limits

COLIN SMY: the need for social work because nothing's

COLIN SMY: gone wrong, therefore.

COLIN SMY: You've worked on the positives.

COLIN SMY: You've really drawn out all positive assets

COLIN SMY: that the family has and built on those so

COLIN SMY: they're focusing on them rather than something

COLIN SMY: going wrong. So we're changing that narrative in

COLIN SMY: those early days for those babies to think...

COLIN SMY: to change the family; instead of trying

COLIN SMY: to avoid making a mistake, to start focusing on

COLIN SMY: doing the right things. And that's where it

COLIN SMY: becomes of a benefit for a child and we start to

COLIN SMY: move into the next area

COLIN SMY: that we look at around school readiness.

COLIN SMY: Because there is something about the fathers but

COLIN SMY: I can see you're dying to tell me something here.

GED DOCHERTY: Just before we get into that.

GED DOCHERTY: I think there's something else that I think

GED DOCHERTY: is really significant in terms of

GED DOCHERTY: safeguarding. So we have a particular

GED DOCHERTY: approach in For Baby's Sake, which is that we

GED DOCHERTY: eradicate the use of shame from

GED DOCHERTY: the work that we do.

GED DOCHERTY: When we have families who've been in

GED DOCHERTY: situations — multiple situations — that has

GED DOCHERTY: the potential to cause them to feel shame.

GED DOCHERTY: We take that shame away from the work that we

GED DOCHERTY: do but what we don't do

GED DOCHERTY: is take away accountability.

GED DOCHERTY: So we support people without the use

GED DOCHERTY: of shame to accept accountability and

GED DOCHERTY: responsibility for any behaviours

GED DOCHERTY: that are caused harm to them or others.

GED DOCHERTY: And we work on that.

GED DOCHERTY: But we do absolutely come from a

GED DOCHERTY: strengths-based and asset-based perspectives

GED DOCHERTY: because there will be stuff, we just need to

GED DOCHERTY: find it. We need to encourage those families

GED DOCHERTY: to identify it.

GED DOCHERTY: And when we find those gold nuggets, that's

GED DOCHERTY: where we start to build on it.

GED DOCHERTY: And that's, that's in harmony with

GED DOCHERTY: the other ways of working, the new models

GED DOCHERTY: of practice that are being developed in

GED DOCHERTY: Blackpool, especially like our Blackpool

GED DOCHERTY: family's model of practice.

COLIN SMY: Yeah, and I think those things really help

COLIN SMY: families face up to the adversities

COLIN SMY: that they come across on a daily basis.

COLIN SMY: Instead of those being, you know— individually,

COLIN SMY: you or I could, or most people could probably

COLIN SMY: cope with challenges around clothing, around

COLIN SMY: food, housing, parenting, education,

COLIN SMY: whatever it may be. But if we put — counting

COLIN SMY: them on your fingers — if you put all those five

COLIN SMY: things together at once, and make a fist.

COLIN SMY: And that's a lot for people to have to deal with

COLIN SMY: in one go. And you or I would struggle to deal

COLIN SMY: with all those in one go. One, two, possibly

COLIN SMY: even three you could deal with at a time but it

COLIN SMY: would be an inconvenience. But to deal with them

COLIN SMY: all at the same time, which we know in areas of

COLIN SMY: deprivation tends to be actually they're facing

COLIN SMY: multiple level of adversity.

COLIN SMY: So whilst we're going to talk about one thing

COLIN SMY: with parenting and how the children

COLIN SMY: are doing, actually, we've also got to bear in

COLIN SMY: mind that they might also be trying to figure

COLIN SMY: out how to put the heating on tonight.

COLIN SMY: They might also be trying to figure out how to put food

COLIN SMY: on the table or avoid other things that are

COLIN SMY: going on, make sure there's clothing.

COLIN SMY: So we kind of have to think about those

COLIN SMY: adversities and take the positives out where we

COLIN SMY: can to where people are doing well.

COLIN SMY: And it brings me to the question around the

COLIN SMY: therapeutic work — which I think is what you're

COLIN SMY: sort of leading into there — to face those

COLIN SMY: adversities that you might do to help families

COLIN SMY: rethink about what they're facing instead of us

COLIN SMY: stigmatising them.

COLIN SMY: And that's what ultimately leads to limiting

COLIN SMY: the safeguarding challenges that we have.

COLIN SMY: So what are some of those therapeutic — before

COLIN SMY: we go on to talk about fathers and school

COLIN SMY: readiness, that I've got jotted down here — what

COLIN SMY: are some of those therapeutic works that you do.

GED DOCHERTY: So I guess one of the things — because I'm

GED DOCHERTY: conscious we are limited on time —

GED DOCHERTY: but if we think about we,

GED DOCHERTY: the team and I, are trained in the use

GED DOCHERTY: of DBT — dialectical behavioural therapy.

GED DOCHERTY: One of the things that is really useful

GED DOCHERTY: within that concept is called a chain

GED DOCHERTY: analysis. And what that does is it supports

GED DOCHERTY: a person to think in a particular way.

GED DOCHERTY: We can all get trapped in cycles of unhelpful

GED DOCHERTY: thinking when we will go to a place of

GED DOCHERTY: negativity and a place of doom and gloom, and

GED DOCHERTY: especially if your circumstances are dire

GED DOCHERTY: to begin with.

GED DOCHERTY: And it's about supporting people

GED DOCHERTY: to go to a solution-focused

GED DOCHERTY: approach. Find ways of using

GED DOCHERTY: your inherent resources to get to where you

GED DOCHERTY: need to be. And if we think about the

GED DOCHERTY: situation that you just briefly described,

GED DOCHERTY: when you have all of that adversity to face:

GED DOCHERTY: the rising cost of living, the significant

GED DOCHERTY: rent increases.

GED DOCHERTY: The bulk of our housing stock in Blackpool is

GED DOCHERTY: privately rented housing stock and landlords

GED DOCHERTY: are feeling the pinch and they're increasing

GED DOCHERTY: the rent and it's one thing after another and

GED DOCHERTY: that of itself is enough to

GED DOCHERTY: trigger conflict in any relationship.

GED DOCHERTY: So in our work we completely recognise

GED DOCHERTY: the impact that all of those things can have.

GED DOCHERTY: We have a global view of that family's

GED DOCHERTY: circumstances. We adopt a whole

GED DOCHERTY: family approach. We take it all into

GED DOCHERTY: consideration and we work in partnership with

GED DOCHERTY: parents to think, okay, if we can, if we can

GED DOCHERTY: tackle this, let's box that off.

GED DOCHERTY: We'll access some funding for

GED DOCHERTY: you for that, we'll make a grant application

GED DOCHERTY: to them; discretionary, and the whole time

GED DOCHERTY: we're supporting that family to spin those

GED DOCHERTY: plates and hopefully reducing

GED DOCHERTY: the potential for conflict in that situation

GED DOCHERTY: whilst developing new skills, new approaches,

GED DOCHERTY: new ways of thinking, new ways of being.

COLIN SMY: Yeah.

COLIN SMY: And I think what's important is when we reduce

COLIN SMY: those challenges, it's allowed us — and

COLIN SMY: obviously within your Baby's Sake team — to

COLIN SMY: bring those families.

COLIN SMY: And I think it's a safe bet to describe it as

COLIN SMY: you brought those families to the starting line.

COLIN SMY: Really, when we look at a lot of other families,

COLIN SMY: we've had children growing up who haven't been

COLIN SMY: able to take themselves to services with our

COLIN SMY: babies and just join in from the off.

COLIN SMY: Some of our families who are facing those

COLIN SMY: adversities need to navigate that to start with.

COLIN SMY: In the early days of their children, their

COLIN SMY: baby's lives.

COLIN SMY: They need that therapeutic way to get to the

COLIN SMY: starting line. So the other things that we

COLIN SMY: implement through Better Start, and I know

COLIN SMY: you've seen, the parent-infant relationships —

COLIN SMY: so being able to address that and understanding

COLIN SMY: how that triad of the parent

COLIN SMY: and the baby works and how important and

COLIN SMY: invaluable is. And then understanding home

COLIN SMY: learning environments, because it's not just

COLIN SMY: about being at nursery or a stay-in place, it's

COLIN SMY: understanding actually in the home how you

COLIN SMY: experience that. And I think we've seen that

COLIN SMY: with Jake and Charlotte in the way they've

COLIN SMY: spoken about their lives changing

COLIN SMY: and moving forward.

COLIN SMY: I think there's clips within there where they're

COLIN SMY: talking about they've changed their

COLIN SMY: relationship, they've changed their outlooks,

COLIN SMY: they've changed the way they view their impact

COLIN SMY: as parents, especially Jake.

COLIN SMY: His impact being a father, which probably

COLIN SMY: brings us to the latter areas of talking about

COLIN SMY: why it's important to to include families

COLIN SMY: in early intervention.

COLIN SMY: We already know, we've spoken about, fathers who

COLIN SMY: are actively involved have a positive impact on

COLIN SMY: children's education, their attainment, the

COLIN SMY: social emotional development,

COLIN SMY: how they form relationships with others, with

COLIN SMY: their reading, with lots of things.

COLIN SMY: And inversely, those who aren't involved have

COLIN SMY: the opposite impact.

COLIN SMY: One of the other aspects that's come up

COLIN SMY: recently, which supports school readiness,

COLIN SMY: is a study recently

COLIN SMY: by Leeds University and Fatherhood Institute —

COLIN SMY: it's been a long term study — has looked at the

COLIN SMY: impact of involved fathers

COLIN SMY: in children's education. And they've established

COLIN SMY: the actual specific age ranges in

COLIN SMY: the years of the children we're talking about

COLIN SMY: here, they just about snip into the 1001 day

COLIN SMY: bracket, because at age three, in the third

COLIN SMY: year, a father who's involved in a child's

COLIN SMY: education, has a positive impact on their

COLIN SMY: key stage results at age 11.

COLIN SMY: So they've tracked enough children involved with

COLIN SMY: fathers now from that age three

COLIN SMY: up to age 11 and been able to see a consistent

COLIN SMY: pattern of involved fathers at three, their

COLIN SMY: children perform well at key stage two.

COLIN SMY: So they've had a positive impact on the child's

COLIN SMY: educational development and performance.

COLIN SMY: Not to say that mums don't, but we know that

COLIN SMY: fathers and mothers provide different inputs,

COLIN SMY: don't they?

GED DOCHERTY: Hundred percent.

COLIN SMY: There is a huge impact of how fathers are able

COLIN SMY: to support their babies in their lives and

COLIN SMY: that's why we do a lot of work in Blackpool

COLIN SMY: around that. But to bring it back to yourself,

COLIN SMY: and we're looking at Jake and Charlotte, is

COLIN SMY: the impact that you see in your teams — because

COLIN SMY: you'll have some families where father is

COLIN SMY: present with mum, some families where father

COLIN SMY: isn't present at all, and some families, I'm

COLIN SMY: sure, where father is actually the main parent

COLIN SMY: that you come across and the primary caregiver.

COLIN SMY: So it's just asking for your reflections really

COLIN SMY: on what you see the challenges are for

COLIN SMY: men. We've established that men and fathers are

COLIN SMY: important in child's lives.

COLIN SMY: We know that. We've got reports to prove it now,

COLIN SMY: and we can see the impact of the power

COLIN SMY: of play on children.

COLIN SMY: But, for you, where do you see that importance

COLIN SMY: for fathers and what are

COLIN SMY: the challenges that fathers face in being

COLIN SMY: involved in early intervention?

GED DOCHERTY: That is a really complicated question.

COLIN SMY: Very complicated.

GED DOCHERTY: It is a complicated question.

GED DOCHERTY: So let me try and hang my hat on something.

GED DOCHERTY: I guess, from a personal perspective, I

GED DOCHERTY: spent a lifetime in various roles working

GED DOCHERTY: with children and families where I would sit

GED DOCHERTY: round the table and I would be the only man.

GED DOCHERTY: And now my eternal question was

GED DOCHERTY: where are the men? Where are the dads?

GED DOCHERTY: Why is dad not here? I did that as a family

GED DOCHERTY: worker, I did it as a social worker, and

GED DOCHERTY: men always seem to be missing.

GED DOCHERTY: And I was always extremely curious about why

GED DOCHERTY: we couldn't pull them into the circle.

GED DOCHERTY: And when I think about it, you and I were

GED DOCHERTY: recently involved in that

GED DOCHERTY: roundtable discussion when we got put into

GED DOCHERTY: groups and I got put into a group with five

GED DOCHERTY: other women. And I said, "this has been my

GED DOCHERTY: career". And then he split us up and put

GED DOCHERTY: another man in the group. And I thought, our

GED DOCHERTY: world is populated by women,

GED DOCHERTY: the world that you and I work in.

COLIN SMY: Yeah.

GED DOCHERTY: We are a very small group of men

GED DOCHERTY: who do this work.

GED DOCHERTY: And if we feel it, those dads out there feel

GED DOCHERTY: it. They may perceive that society

GED DOCHERTY: has created roles for women and

GED DOCHERTY: roles for men. And you're over there and if

GED DOCHERTY: we need owt, will ask you.

GED DOCHERTY: And it's about encouraging those men

GED DOCHERTY: not to see the world that way, to see

GED DOCHERTY: the joy in their baby, in

GED DOCHERTY: their child, to acknowledge and accept

GED DOCHERTY: the considerable influence that

GED DOCHERTY: they can have on their child.

GED DOCHERTY: We talk about it with our For Baby's Sake

GED DOCHERTY: dads all the time. From the minute we meet

GED DOCHERTY: them, we say to them, "We can't do this

GED DOCHERTY: without you." This will not happen if

GED DOCHERTY: you don't join in and join in now

GED DOCHERTY: and get the ball rolling.

GED DOCHERTY: Increase your presence with

GED DOCHERTY: your partner and your baby.

GED DOCHERTY: Find your strength, find your role, find your

GED DOCHERTY: groove. What can you bring to the table?

GED DOCHERTY: And it's that openness that we bring

GED DOCHERTY: into the situation, going back to the

GED DOCHERTY: the lack of judgement that I talked about.

GED DOCHERTY: And it's saying to that dad, "we need you.

GED DOCHERTY: Your baby needs you.

GED DOCHERTY: This situation needs you.

GED DOCHERTY: And if you put yourself

GED DOCHERTY: as an investment into the bank — see

GED DOCHERTY: your baby as a bank account — invest from day

GED DOCHERTY: one and you will get paid back.

GED DOCHERTY: You will have returns in the future when your

GED DOCHERTY: child thrives and you have contributed

GED DOCHERTY: significantly to that."

OWEN: What it felt like to them to have been included like

OWEN: that.

JAKE: It's been amazing.

JAKE: I mean, at the end of the day, a lot

JAKE: of services now mostly, especially

JAKE: with with what For Baby's Sake offer towards people,

JAKE: towards people that have been involved in

JAKE: relationships that've had domestic violence

JAKE: incidents.

JAKE: And a lot of services always

JAKE: judge the perpetrator of that in the relationship,

JAKE: when if services were to work with that perpetrator,

JAKE: it would, you know, work wonders.

JAKE: And it's just been great.

JAKE: And I would recommend it to anybody to work with For

JAKE: Baby's Sake for that reason.

JAKE: I mean, I've never felt judged.

JAKE: I've never— I've never been judged whatsoever.

JAKE: I've just had fair work.

JAKE: And, you know, and that's it.

JAKE: It's been good.

JAKE: Yeah.

KAREN: And when we're talking about including Jake as

KAREN: much as possible in Isabella's early life,

KAREN: how do you think that helped? The programme's helped

KAREN: with that?

CHARLOTTE: I think it's it's always important

CHARLOTTE: for us both to be included.

CHARLOTTE: It was— it's easy to just think that I'm

CHARLOTTE: the only parent when I'm Isabella's sole carer.

CHARLOTTE: It was good to get each other's point

CHARLOTTE: of view. So when we were doing our sessions,

CHARLOTTE: we always spoke about Jake.

CHARLOTTE: We had a meeting once, like a review, and

CHARLOTTE: whilst Jake was in custody, he was able to

CHARLOTTE: record stories for Isabella. And Karen I don't think

CHARLOTTE: had ever heard Jake's voice and Ged had never

CHARLOTTE: heard Jake's voice, but we got to share the

CHARLOTTE: story that Jake had read for Isabella

CHARLOTTE: in that session, which was really nice because

CHARLOTTE: you got to know Jake a little bit and listen

CHARLOTTE: to his story for Isabella.

GED DOCHERTY: Men need to believe that they are valued

GED DOCHERTY: as a parent and not all men do.

COLIN SMY: I think it's fantastically put that because I

COLIN SMY: think what we come across, it's that

COLIN SMY: value as a parent. And it's not even that value

COLIN SMY: as a father it's a value as a parent, being

COLIN SMY: acknowledged as a parent.

COLIN SMY: There is an argument for having their own

COLIN SMY: identity as a father, and the advice for

COLIN SMY: anyone listening who works with dads is to

COLIN SMY: reinforce dad's role at as early an opportunity

COLIN SMY: as possible.

GED DOCHERTY: Absolutely.

COLIN SMY: Talk to him about his role and value

COLIN SMY: as a parent and his own identity as well.

COLIN SMY: And I think this is where in Blackpool we're

COLIN SMY: trying to look at things differently. Everywhere

COLIN SMY: else in the country you see people putting up

COLIN SMY: 'dads stay and play', dads this, dads that.

COLIN SMY: Sooner or later, that funding runs out for the

COLIN SMY: duplicated activity that's just on for dads.

COLIN SMY: And then dads look at the timetables and say,

COLIN SMY: "Oh, well there's nothing that says 'dads' in it,

COLIN SMY: I can't go".

GED DOCHERTY: It says parent and toddler, so I can't go.

COLIN SMY: Yeah, exactly.

COLIN SMY: Instead of thinking "I can go to everything and

COLIN SMY: I'm invited to everything.

GED DOCHERTY: Because I'm a parent.

COLIN SMY: Because I'm a parent.

COLIN SMY: And what we've...

COLIN SMY: When we actually listen to dads, and this is a

COLIN SMY: mistake, I think — it's not a mistake, I think

COLIN SMY: it's the misinterpretation that people make

COLIN SMY: sometimes — they put on activities specifically

COLIN SMY: for dads, thinking that'll make them come.

COLIN SMY: When you listen to dads they're not saying I

COLIN SMY: want an activity that is just for dads, that is

COLIN SMY: just for me. I would just like there to be more

COLIN SMY: dads there. Nines times out of ten, when you

COLIN SMY: translate what they're saying to you, that's

COLIN SMY: what they're telling you: "I just wish there was

COLIN SMY: more dads there." Because then I wouldn't feel

COLIN SMY: that the only person in the room.

GED DOCHERTY: Do you know one of the saddest things that

GED DOCHERTY: I've heard during my time in For Baby's Sake.

GED DOCHERTY: So, working with this couple, we're still

GED DOCHERTY: working with them now, when baby

GED DOCHERTY: was... Their son was only a few

GED DOCHERTY: weeks old, we were doing a craft

GED DOCHERTY: activity with mum and dad downstairs in our

GED DOCHERTY: family hub. And we were going to do

GED DOCHERTY: footprints that they could frame

GED DOCHERTY: and keep a snapshot of that moment

GED DOCHERTY: in time of that child's life.

GED DOCHERTY: And dad was kind of on the sidelines and mum

GED DOCHERTY: was getting stuck in, enjoying the crafty,

GED DOCHERTY: creative aspect, whilst we were still having

GED DOCHERTY: those conversations about the importance of

GED DOCHERTY: play and connecting with their baby.

GED DOCHERTY: And I could see that he was really hesitant.

GED DOCHERTY: And I said to him, "Are you okay?

GED DOCHERTY: Does this feel okay for you?" And he said,

GED DOCHERTY: "I don't know how to do it." And I said to

GED DOCHERTY: him, "Well, which bit?

GED DOCHERTY: Which don't you know how to do?" And he said,

GED DOCHERTY: "I don't know how to play.

GED DOCHERTY: No one taught me how to play." He'd lived

GED DOCHERTY: with his birth family and then he was

GED DOCHERTY: fostered and lived in a number of families

GED DOCHERTY: and then went into a children's home.

GED DOCHERTY: And at no point along that journey did anyone

GED DOCHERTY: teach that man as a child how to play.

COLIN SMY: And that's his own trauma that he's had to

COLIN SMY: grow up with. And now he's an adult, and

COLIN SMY: probably being chastised for not being able to

COLIN SMY: parent his own child.

GED DOCHERTY: Yeah.

COLIN SMY: Because nobody sat down with him to give him the

COLIN SMY: time to actually ask him, you know, "what's

COLIN SMY: happened? How have you done?" And they're just presuming he's

COLIN SMY: not interested.

GED DOCHERTY: We make assumptions in the work that we do

GED DOCHERTY: and we need to sometimes as professionals

GED DOCHERTY: check ourselves and we need to check in that

GED DOCHERTY: someone actually knows or has

GED DOCHERTY: the confidence to be able to share what he

GED DOCHERTY: did. He was able to share that because we'd

GED DOCHERTY: put the investment in during the term of the

GED DOCHERTY: pregnancy. If we'd just met him at that

GED DOCHERTY: moment in time and he didn't know us, I

GED DOCHERTY: wouldn't tell anyone that.

GED DOCHERTY: But he was able to tell us that because he

GED DOCHERTY: felt safe, because he knew in that moment in

GED DOCHERTY: time we would respond appropriately and

GED DOCHERTY: we wouldn't judge him and find it ludicrous

GED DOCHERTY: that a grown man, who had contributed to

GED DOCHERTY: the birth of a child, did not know how to

GED DOCHERTY: play.

COLIN SMY: Yeah, it's when people talk about having the

COLIN SMY: perfect parents, isn't it.

COLIN SMY: You quite often can't get the perfect parents. You can

COLIN SMY: only parent off what you've learnt as

COLIN SMY: a child or what you're experiencing

COLIN SMY: as an adult and what you're being taught. And it's much

COLIN SMY: the same within— I think, when there's the

COLIN SMY: expectation that it's okay, father doesn't need

COLIN SMY: to know. Actually sometimes that's excusing

COLIN SMY: their ability to be able to parent.

COLIN SMY: So all that's doing is it actually probably ends

COLIN SMY: up putting more pressure on mum because

COLIN SMY: sometimes it disengages fathers because, you

COLIN SMY: know, if you hadn't have been there to have that

COLIN SMY: conversation with him or whoever it was had that

COLIN SMY: conversation, would anybody have ever said to

COLIN SMY: him, or he ever said to anybody, that he didn't

COLIN SMY: know what to do and then been able to get some

COLIN SMY: help and support and what to do and actually

COLIN SMY: being told, you know, it's okay, we'll work

COLIN SMY: through this and you do what you feel is best.

COLIN SMY: Would he have just disengaged himself from that

COLIN SMY: relationship with the child there?

GED DOCHERTY: Potentially, yeah.

COLIN SMY: Yeah. The parent-infant relationship is then

COLIN SMY: broken down which potentially is putting more

COLIN SMY: pressure on mum and puts more stress on the

COLIN SMY: relationship that you spoke about before.

GED DOCHERTY: Causes conflict and it goes round and round.

COLIN SMY: It's the whole cycle.

COLIN SMY: For the first 1001 days of that baby's child

COLIN SMY: development, all they're seeing is stress,

COLIN SMY: strain and the struggles,

COLIN SMY: the conflict and all of the toxic things that

COLIN SMY: we don't want to introduce into a child's life.

GED DOCHERTY: And there's no learning for that child about

GED DOCHERTY: how to — going back to our earlier

GED DOCHERTY: conversation — how to self-sooth,

GED DOCHERTY: self-regulate, form secure attachments,

GED DOCHERTY: because all you see is this.

GED DOCHERTY: You see that butting heads, that

GED DOCHERTY: disagreement, those falling outs, those

GED DOCHERTY: silences, all of that because people can't

GED DOCHERTY: articulate. I think one of the other

GED DOCHERTY: significant things that we do in For Baby's

GED DOCHERTY: Sake is we teach our parents emotional

GED DOCHERTY: literacy.

GED DOCHERTY: People can say, "I'm thinking this,

GED DOCHERTY: I'm feeling this." So we

GED DOCHERTY: give them both the verbal capacity

GED DOCHERTY: and the emotional capacity to be able

GED DOCHERTY: to speak it, to name it, to own

GED DOCHERTY: it. All of that stuff is really, really

GED DOCHERTY: important.

JAKE: I mean, I've learnt how to recognise

JAKE: my feelings, recognise my emotions, realise that it's

JAKE: okay to walk away.

JAKE: If you're having a disagreement, it's okay to walk

JAKE: away and leave that disagreement.

JAKE: You don't have to sort it out there and then.

JAKE: You're not going to lose your relationship over it.

JAKE: You just walking away because it's the

JAKE: better option. It's the better plan to keep both

JAKE: yourself, your partner and your child out of harm's

JAKE: way.

COLIN SMY: The first 1001 days

COLIN SMY: of Jake and Charlotte's baby's life

COLIN SMY: could have gone a number of different ways;

COLIN SMY: quite a few could have been negative.

COLIN SMY: You know, Jake's in prison, Charlotte's

COLIN SMY: on her own, both of them have got their own

COLIN SMY: traumas that they need to contend with on top

COLIN SMY: of being parents and the stresses of they'll

COLIN SMY: have there. And that early intervention has

COLIN SMY: reduced the safeguarding because it's brought

COLIN SMY: them together as a family.

COLIN SMY: So, baby's already growing in utero; baby's

COLIN SMY: born; and now because they're talking, they're

COLIN SMY: communicating, and the home environment is much

COLIN SMY: calmer, it's better for communication and

COLIN SMY: language, better for the parent-infant

COLIN SMY: relationship.

COLIN SMY: They've been able to come to the support

COLIN SMY: sessions and classes to understand good child

COLIN SMY: development, ensuring that they're not

COLIN SMY: overloading them sensory through their play, but

COLIN SMY: also not overloading the sensory through

COLIN SMY: arguments and conflict, and reducing all those

COLIN SMY: toxic inputs that can come in.

COLIN SMY: And the therapeutic work that've come into it

COLIN SMY: has supported

COLIN SMY: the family of Jake, Charlotte and baby to

COLIN SMY: try to identify the positives. If they could see

COLIN SMY: the positives of some things they're doing well,

COLIN SMY: allows them the headspace to think actually I

COLIN SMY: can go work on the other things now, because not

COLIN SMY: to say that it minimalises it, but it makes them

COLIN SMY: more absorbable. So when we were talking about

COLIN SMY: the fist of all the things before being

COLIN SMY: together, actually if we're able to offset

COLIN SMY: the blow and the downtroddeness of

COLIN SMY: those things that might not be going so well, it

COLIN SMY: actually allows us to have some resilience to

COLIN SMY: them and address them and process them.

COLIN SMY: Meaning that by the end of that 1001 days their

COLIN SMY: baby's brain has had the opportunity to develop

COLIN SMY: and be ready for school, had all the input they

COLIN SMY: need, got supportive relationships, understands

COLIN SMY: their own position, their own social emotional

COLIN SMY: development, so that their baby can grow up in

COLIN SMY: a different opportunity.

COLIN SMY: It's not to say we can make things better, it's

COLIN SMY: to say that we can offer a different way and

COLIN SMY: there's an alternative.

COLIN SMY: And I think that somewhat sums up the

COLIN SMY: conversation we've been having today.

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Thanks to Colin and Ged for that

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): really informative and thought-provoking

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): discussion on early intervention

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): and supporting parents through

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): adversity. I wanted to end this

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): episode with a contribution

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): from Charlotte who describes

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): how For Baby's Sake has helped

GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): her on her parenting journey.

CHARLOTTE: I think the confidence that I've gained from

CHARLOTTE: For Baby's Sake is what has made

CHARLOTTE: me go to university and

CHARLOTTE: want to get a career and better my life for

CHARLOTTE: Isabella.

CHARLOTTE: I'm going to university to become a paramedic,

CHARLOTTE: hopefully, and I would never have done that if I

CHARLOTTE: didn't have the people around me helping

CHARLOTTE: me become more confident within myself, not just

CHARLOTTE: my parenting, but me as a person becoming more

CHARLOTTE: confident. That's just something I would never

CHARLOTTE: have done before.

CONCLUSION: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning

CONCLUSION: podcast.

CONCLUSION: At the time of recording, this episode's

CONCLUSION: content was up to date, but the world of

CONCLUSION: safeguarding and child protection is ever

CONCLUSION: changing. So if you're looking for the most

CONCLUSION: current safeguarding and child protection

CONCLUSION: training, information or resources,

CONCLUSION: please visit our website for professionals at

CONCLUSION: nspcc.org.uk/learning.