1 00:00:03,170 --> 00:00:06,139 INTRODUCTION: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where 2 00:00:06,140 --> 00:00:08,389 INTRODUCTION: we share learning and expertise in child 3 00:00:08,390 --> 00:00:10,879 INTRODUCTION: protection from inside and outside of the 4 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:12,349 INTRODUCTION: organisation. 5 00:00:12,350 --> 00:00:15,259 INTRODUCTION: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection 6 00:00:15,260 --> 00:00:17,389 INTRODUCTION: and share good practice on how we can all 7 00:00:17,390 --> 00:00:20,359 INTRODUCTION: work together to keep babies, children and 8 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:21,360 INTRODUCTION: young people safe. 9 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:26,219 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Welcome to the NSPCC Learning 10 00:00:26,220 --> 00:00:28,199 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Podcast. This is the second 11 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:29,639 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): half of a conversation between 12 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:31,529 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Colin Smy from the NSPCC's 13 00:00:31,530 --> 00:00:33,359 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Blackpool Better Start Service 14 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:35,159 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): and Ged Docherty, Team Manager 15 00:00:35,160 --> 00:00:37,289 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): at For Baby's Sake in Blackpool. 16 00:00:37,290 --> 00:00:38,579 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): The discussion, recorded in 17 00:00:38,580 --> 00:00:41,069 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): September 2023, looks at how 18 00:00:41,070 --> 00:00:43,049 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): For Baby's Sake uses therapeutic, 19 00:00:43,050 --> 00:00:44,999 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): trauma-informed and strengths-based 20 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:46,529 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): approaches to support parents 21 00:00:46,530 --> 00:00:47,999 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): going through adversity during 22 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:49,319 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): the early years. 23 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:50,849 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): In this part, Colin and Ged 24 00:00:50,850 --> 00:00:52,319 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): will talk about why it's so important 25 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:53,759 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): to involve fathers in early 26 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:55,289 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): intervention. And if you 27 00:00:55,290 --> 00:00:56,579 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): haven't listened to the first part of 28 00:00:56,580 --> 00:00:58,289 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): the conversation yet, we advise 29 00:00:58,290 --> 00:00:59,549 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): you do that before listening to 30 00:00:59,550 --> 00:01:00,809 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): this episode. 31 00:01:00,810 --> 00:01:02,249 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): We rejoin the conversation with 32 00:01:02,250 --> 00:01:03,629 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Colin explaining why early 33 00:01:03,630 --> 00:01:05,129 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): intervention is so important. 34 00:01:11,610 --> 00:01:14,189 COLIN SMY: Well, what we're trying to do is reduce the 35 00:01:14,190 --> 00:01:16,169 COLIN SMY: requirement of hitting the social care, you 36 00:01:16,170 --> 00:01:18,719 COLIN SMY: know, after something's happened. We want to be 37 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:20,939 COLIN SMY: catching families and supporting them before 38 00:01:20,940 --> 00:01:23,159 COLIN SMY: it's happened. And that's sometimes a challenge. 39 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:25,919 COLIN SMY: Early intervention and For Baby's Sake limits 40 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:29,129 COLIN SMY: the need for social work because nothing's 41 00:01:29,130 --> 00:01:30,130 COLIN SMY: gone wrong, therefore. 42 00:01:31,020 --> 00:01:32,759 COLIN SMY: You've worked on the positives. 43 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:36,029 COLIN SMY: You've really drawn out all positive assets 44 00:01:36,030 --> 00:01:38,429 COLIN SMY: that the family has and built on those so 45 00:01:38,430 --> 00:01:40,379 COLIN SMY: they're focusing on them rather than something 46 00:01:40,380 --> 00:01:43,499 COLIN SMY: going wrong. So we're changing that narrative in 47 00:01:43,500 --> 00:01:45,978 COLIN SMY: those early days for those babies to think... 48 00:01:45,979 --> 00:01:49,199 COLIN SMY: to change the family; instead of trying 49 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:51,809 COLIN SMY: to avoid making a mistake, to start focusing on 50 00:01:51,810 --> 00:01:53,640 COLIN SMY: doing the right things. And that's where it 51 00:01:53,641 --> 00:01:55,619 COLIN SMY: becomes of a benefit for a child and we start to 52 00:01:55,620 --> 00:01:57,569 COLIN SMY: move into the next area 53 00:01:58,740 --> 00:02:01,049 COLIN SMY: that we look at around school readiness. 54 00:02:01,050 --> 00:02:02,609 COLIN SMY: Because there is something about the fathers but 55 00:02:02,610 --> 00:02:03,870 COLIN SMY: I can see you're dying to tell me something here. 56 00:02:06,270 --> 00:02:08,679 GED DOCHERTY: Just before we get into that. 57 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:10,629 GED DOCHERTY: I think there's something else that I think 58 00:02:10,630 --> 00:02:12,639 GED DOCHERTY: is really significant in terms of 59 00:02:12,640 --> 00:02:14,979 GED DOCHERTY: safeguarding. So we have a particular 60 00:02:14,980 --> 00:02:18,759 GED DOCHERTY: approach in For Baby's Sake, which is that we 61 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:21,729 GED DOCHERTY: eradicate the use of shame from 62 00:02:21,730 --> 00:02:23,349 GED DOCHERTY: the work that we do. 63 00:02:23,350 --> 00:02:25,869 GED DOCHERTY: When we have families who've been in 64 00:02:25,870 --> 00:02:28,779 GED DOCHERTY: situations — multiple situations — that has 65 00:02:28,780 --> 00:02:32,559 GED DOCHERTY: the potential to cause them to feel shame. 66 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:35,259 GED DOCHERTY: We take that shame away from the work that we 67 00:02:35,260 --> 00:02:38,649 GED DOCHERTY: do but what we don't do 68 00:02:38,650 --> 00:02:41,379 GED DOCHERTY: is take away accountability. 69 00:02:41,380 --> 00:02:44,409 GED DOCHERTY: So we support people without the use 70 00:02:44,410 --> 00:02:47,259 GED DOCHERTY: of shame to accept accountability and 71 00:02:47,260 --> 00:02:50,949 GED DOCHERTY: responsibility for any behaviours 72 00:02:50,950 --> 00:02:53,889 GED DOCHERTY: that are caused harm to them or others. 73 00:02:53,890 --> 00:02:55,389 GED DOCHERTY: And we work on that. 74 00:02:55,390 --> 00:02:58,419 GED DOCHERTY: But we do absolutely come from a 75 00:02:58,420 --> 00:03:02,289 GED DOCHERTY: strengths-based and asset-based perspectives 76 00:03:02,290 --> 00:03:05,139 GED DOCHERTY: because there will be stuff, we just need to 77 00:03:05,140 --> 00:03:07,749 GED DOCHERTY: find it. We need to encourage those families 78 00:03:07,750 --> 00:03:09,309 GED DOCHERTY: to identify it. 79 00:03:09,310 --> 00:03:12,009 GED DOCHERTY: And when we find those gold nuggets, that's 80 00:03:12,010 --> 00:03:13,989 GED DOCHERTY: where we start to build on it. 81 00:03:13,990 --> 00:03:17,499 GED DOCHERTY: And that's, that's in harmony with 82 00:03:17,500 --> 00:03:20,589 GED DOCHERTY: the other ways of working, the new models 83 00:03:20,590 --> 00:03:22,269 GED DOCHERTY: of practice that are being developed in 84 00:03:22,270 --> 00:03:24,519 GED DOCHERTY: Blackpool, especially like our Blackpool 85 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:26,469 GED DOCHERTY: family's model of practice. 86 00:03:26,470 --> 00:03:28,149 COLIN SMY: Yeah, and I think those things really help 87 00:03:28,150 --> 00:03:31,629 COLIN SMY: families face up to the adversities 88 00:03:31,630 --> 00:03:34,179 COLIN SMY: that they come across on a daily basis. 89 00:03:34,180 --> 00:03:37,029 COLIN SMY: Instead of those being, you know— individually, 90 00:03:37,030 --> 00:03:40,299 COLIN SMY: you or I could, or most people could probably 91 00:03:40,300 --> 00:03:43,209 COLIN SMY: cope with challenges around clothing, around 92 00:03:43,210 --> 00:03:46,419 COLIN SMY: food, housing, parenting, education, 93 00:03:46,420 --> 00:03:48,007 COLIN SMY: whatever it may be. But if we put — counting 94 00:03:48,008 --> 00:03:50,679 COLIN SMY: them on your fingers — if you put all those five 95 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:52,170 COLIN SMY: things together at once, and make a fist. 96 00:03:53,290 --> 00:03:55,659 COLIN SMY: And that's a lot for people to have to deal with 97 00:03:55,660 --> 00:03:58,779 COLIN SMY: in one go. And you or I would struggle to deal 98 00:03:58,780 --> 00:04:01,209 COLIN SMY: with all those in one go. One, two, possibly 99 00:04:01,210 --> 00:04:02,799 COLIN SMY: even three you could deal with at a time but it 100 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:04,306 COLIN SMY: would be an inconvenience. But to deal with them 101 00:04:04,307 --> 00:04:07,299 COLIN SMY: all at the same time, which we know in areas of 102 00:04:07,300 --> 00:04:10,479 COLIN SMY: deprivation tends to be actually they're facing 103 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:12,789 COLIN SMY: multiple level of adversity. 104 00:04:12,790 --> 00:04:15,009 COLIN SMY: So whilst we're going to talk about one thing 105 00:04:15,010 --> 00:04:18,309 COLIN SMY: with parenting and how the children 106 00:04:18,310 --> 00:04:20,499 COLIN SMY: are doing, actually, we've also got to bear in 107 00:04:20,500 --> 00:04:22,269 COLIN SMY: mind that they might also be trying to figure 108 00:04:22,270 --> 00:04:23,949 COLIN SMY: out how to put the heating on tonight. 109 00:04:23,950 --> 00:04:25,299 COLIN SMY: They might also be trying to figure out how to put food 110 00:04:25,300 --> 00:04:27,789 COLIN SMY: on the table or avoid other things that are 111 00:04:27,790 --> 00:04:29,649 COLIN SMY: going on, make sure there's clothing. 112 00:04:29,650 --> 00:04:31,149 COLIN SMY: So we kind of have to think about those 113 00:04:31,150 --> 00:04:32,979 COLIN SMY: adversities and take the positives out where we 114 00:04:32,980 --> 00:04:34,869 COLIN SMY: can to where people are doing well. 115 00:04:34,870 --> 00:04:37,479 COLIN SMY: And it brings me to the question around the 116 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:40,299 COLIN SMY: therapeutic work — which I think is what you're 117 00:04:40,300 --> 00:04:42,669 COLIN SMY: sort of leading into there — to face those 118 00:04:42,670 --> 00:04:45,579 COLIN SMY: adversities that you might do to help families 119 00:04:45,580 --> 00:04:48,609 COLIN SMY: rethink about what they're facing instead of us 120 00:04:48,610 --> 00:04:49,989 COLIN SMY: stigmatising them. 121 00:04:49,990 --> 00:04:53,199 COLIN SMY: And that's what ultimately leads to limiting 122 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,229 COLIN SMY: the safeguarding challenges that we have. 123 00:04:56,230 --> 00:04:58,759 COLIN SMY: So what are some of those therapeutic — before 124 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,329 COLIN SMY: we go on to talk about fathers and school 125 00:05:01,330 --> 00:05:03,189 COLIN SMY: readiness, that I've got jotted down here — what 126 00:05:03,190 --> 00:05:05,499 COLIN SMY: are some of those therapeutic works that you do. 127 00:05:05,500 --> 00:05:07,900 GED DOCHERTY: So I guess one of the things — because I'm 128 00:05:07,901 --> 00:05:10,959 GED DOCHERTY: conscious we are limited on time — 129 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,139 GED DOCHERTY: but if we think about we, 130 00:05:14,140 --> 00:05:17,289 GED DOCHERTY: the team and I, are trained in the use 131 00:05:17,290 --> 00:05:21,459 GED DOCHERTY: of DBT — dialectical behavioural therapy. 132 00:05:21,460 --> 00:05:23,859 GED DOCHERTY: One of the things that is really useful 133 00:05:23,860 --> 00:05:26,559 GED DOCHERTY: within that concept is called a chain 134 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:30,519 GED DOCHERTY: analysis. And what that does is it supports 135 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,579 GED DOCHERTY: a person to think in a particular way. 136 00:05:33,580 --> 00:05:36,669 GED DOCHERTY: We can all get trapped in cycles of unhelpful 137 00:05:36,670 --> 00:05:39,309 GED DOCHERTY: thinking when we will go to a place of 138 00:05:39,310 --> 00:05:40,824 GED DOCHERTY: negativity and a place of doom and gloom, and 139 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:45,009 GED DOCHERTY: especially if your circumstances are dire 140 00:05:45,010 --> 00:05:46,299 GED DOCHERTY: to begin with. 141 00:05:46,300 --> 00:05:49,389 GED DOCHERTY: And it's about supporting people 142 00:05:49,390 --> 00:05:52,989 GED DOCHERTY: to go to a solution-focused 143 00:05:52,990 --> 00:05:56,349 GED DOCHERTY: approach. Find ways of using 144 00:05:56,350 --> 00:05:59,409 GED DOCHERTY: your inherent resources to get to where you 145 00:05:59,410 --> 00:06:01,809 GED DOCHERTY: need to be. And if we think about the 146 00:06:01,810 --> 00:06:05,019 GED DOCHERTY: situation that you just briefly described, 147 00:06:05,020 --> 00:06:07,617 GED DOCHERTY: when you have all of that adversity to face: 148 00:06:07,618 --> 00:06:11,199 GED DOCHERTY: the rising cost of living, the significant 149 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:12,459 GED DOCHERTY: rent increases. 150 00:06:12,460 --> 00:06:15,159 GED DOCHERTY: The bulk of our housing stock in Blackpool is 151 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:18,909 GED DOCHERTY: privately rented housing stock and landlords 152 00:06:18,910 --> 00:06:21,459 GED DOCHERTY: are feeling the pinch and they're increasing 153 00:06:21,460 --> 00:06:24,429 GED DOCHERTY: the rent and it's one thing after another and 154 00:06:24,430 --> 00:06:27,579 GED DOCHERTY: that of itself is enough to 155 00:06:27,580 --> 00:06:31,059 GED DOCHERTY: trigger conflict in any relationship. 156 00:06:31,060 --> 00:06:34,509 GED DOCHERTY: So in our work we completely recognise 157 00:06:34,510 --> 00:06:36,879 GED DOCHERTY: the impact that all of those things can have. 158 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:40,089 GED DOCHERTY: We have a global view of that family's 159 00:06:40,090 --> 00:06:43,059 GED DOCHERTY: circumstances. We adopt a whole 160 00:06:43,060 --> 00:06:45,429 GED DOCHERTY: family approach. We take it all into 161 00:06:45,430 --> 00:06:48,249 GED DOCHERTY: consideration and we work in partnership with 162 00:06:48,250 --> 00:06:51,039 GED DOCHERTY: parents to think, okay, if we can, if we can 163 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:53,379 GED DOCHERTY: tackle this, let's box that off. 164 00:06:53,380 --> 00:06:56,559 GED DOCHERTY: We'll access some funding for 165 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,169 GED DOCHERTY: you for that, we'll make a grant application 166 00:06:59,170 --> 00:07:02,229 GED DOCHERTY: to them; discretionary, and the whole time 167 00:07:02,230 --> 00:07:04,569 GED DOCHERTY: we're supporting that family to spin those 168 00:07:04,570 --> 00:07:08,319 GED DOCHERTY: plates and hopefully reducing 169 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:12,099 GED DOCHERTY: the potential for conflict in that situation 170 00:07:12,100 --> 00:07:15,459 GED DOCHERTY: whilst developing new skills, new approaches, 171 00:07:15,460 --> 00:07:17,673 GED DOCHERTY: new ways of thinking, new ways of being. 172 00:07:17,674 --> 00:07:18,674 COLIN SMY: Yeah. 173 00:07:18,970 --> 00:07:21,909 COLIN SMY: And I think what's important is when we reduce 174 00:07:21,910 --> 00:07:24,039 COLIN SMY: those challenges, it's allowed us — and 175 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:26,589 COLIN SMY: obviously within your Baby's Sake team — to 176 00:07:26,590 --> 00:07:27,969 COLIN SMY: bring those families. 177 00:07:27,970 --> 00:07:31,239 COLIN SMY: And I think it's a safe bet to describe it as 178 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:33,429 COLIN SMY: you brought those families to the starting line. 179 00:07:33,430 --> 00:07:36,211 COLIN SMY: Really, when we look at a lot of other families, 180 00:07:36,212 --> 00:07:38,649 COLIN SMY: we've had children growing up who haven't been 181 00:07:38,650 --> 00:07:40,899 COLIN SMY: able to take themselves to services with our 182 00:07:40,900 --> 00:07:43,479 COLIN SMY: babies and just join in from the off. 183 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:44,889 COLIN SMY: Some of our families who are facing those 184 00:07:44,890 --> 00:07:48,399 COLIN SMY: adversities need to navigate that to start with. 185 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:51,219 COLIN SMY: In the early days of their children, their 186 00:07:51,220 --> 00:07:52,539 COLIN SMY: baby's lives. 187 00:07:52,540 --> 00:07:54,519 COLIN SMY: They need that therapeutic way to get to the 188 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:56,979 COLIN SMY: starting line. So the other things that we 189 00:07:56,980 --> 00:07:59,229 COLIN SMY: implement through Better Start, and I know 190 00:07:59,230 --> 00:08:01,779 COLIN SMY: you've seen, the parent-infant relationships — 191 00:08:01,780 --> 00:08:03,879 COLIN SMY: so being able to address that and understanding 192 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:07,359 COLIN SMY: how that triad of the parent 193 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:09,369 COLIN SMY: and the baby works and how important and 194 00:08:09,370 --> 00:08:11,619 COLIN SMY: invaluable is. And then understanding home 195 00:08:11,620 --> 00:08:13,329 COLIN SMY: learning environments, because it's not just 196 00:08:13,330 --> 00:08:16,179 COLIN SMY: about being at nursery or a stay-in place, it's 197 00:08:16,180 --> 00:08:18,159 COLIN SMY: understanding actually in the home how you 198 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:19,599 COLIN SMY: experience that. And I think we've seen that 199 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:21,272 COLIN SMY: with Jake and Charlotte in the way they've 200 00:08:21,273 --> 00:08:24,489 COLIN SMY: spoken about their lives changing 201 00:08:24,490 --> 00:08:26,109 COLIN SMY: and moving forward. 202 00:08:26,110 --> 00:08:28,569 COLIN SMY: I think there's clips within there where they're 203 00:08:28,570 --> 00:08:30,459 COLIN SMY: talking about they've changed their 204 00:08:30,460 --> 00:08:32,649 COLIN SMY: relationship, they've changed their outlooks, 205 00:08:32,650 --> 00:08:35,139 COLIN SMY: they've changed the way they view their impact 206 00:08:35,140 --> 00:08:37,418 COLIN SMY: as parents, especially Jake. 207 00:08:37,419 --> 00:08:40,418 COLIN SMY: His impact being a father, which probably 208 00:08:40,419 --> 00:08:43,449 COLIN SMY: brings us to the latter areas of talking about 209 00:08:43,450 --> 00:08:46,452 COLIN SMY: why it's important to to include families 210 00:08:47,620 --> 00:08:49,419 COLIN SMY: in early intervention. 211 00:08:49,420 --> 00:08:52,389 COLIN SMY: We already know, we've spoken about, fathers who 212 00:08:52,390 --> 00:08:55,209 COLIN SMY: are actively involved have a positive impact on 213 00:08:55,210 --> 00:08:57,009 COLIN SMY: children's education, their attainment, the 214 00:08:57,010 --> 00:08:58,717 COLIN SMY: social emotional development, 215 00:08:59,980 --> 00:09:02,139 COLIN SMY: how they form relationships with others, with 216 00:09:02,140 --> 00:09:04,179 COLIN SMY: their reading, with lots of things. 217 00:09:04,180 --> 00:09:06,159 COLIN SMY: And inversely, those who aren't involved have 218 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:07,160 COLIN SMY: the opposite impact. 219 00:09:07,540 --> 00:09:10,324 COLIN SMY: One of the other aspects that's come up 220 00:09:10,325 --> 00:09:14,019 COLIN SMY: recently, which supports school readiness, 221 00:09:14,020 --> 00:09:16,989 COLIN SMY: is a study recently 222 00:09:16,990 --> 00:09:19,793 COLIN SMY: by Leeds University and Fatherhood Institute — 223 00:09:19,794 --> 00:09:22,509 COLIN SMY: it's been a long term study — has looked at the 224 00:09:22,510 --> 00:09:25,479 COLIN SMY: impact of involved fathers 225 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:28,809 COLIN SMY: in children's education. And they've established 226 00:09:28,810 --> 00:09:32,019 COLIN SMY: the actual specific age ranges in 227 00:09:32,020 --> 00:09:34,659 COLIN SMY: the years of the children we're talking about 228 00:09:34,660 --> 00:09:37,839 COLIN SMY: here, they just about snip into the 1001 day 229 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,659 COLIN SMY: bracket, because at age three, in the third 230 00:09:40,660 --> 00:09:42,879 COLIN SMY: year, a father who's involved in a child's 231 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:46,119 COLIN SMY: education, has a positive impact on their 232 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:48,459 COLIN SMY: key stage results at age 11. 233 00:09:48,460 --> 00:09:50,779 COLIN SMY: So they've tracked enough children involved with 234 00:09:50,780 --> 00:09:54,159 COLIN SMY: fathers now from that age three 235 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:56,499 COLIN SMY: up to age 11 and been able to see a consistent 236 00:09:56,500 --> 00:09:59,229 COLIN SMY: pattern of involved fathers at three, their 237 00:09:59,230 --> 00:10:01,366 COLIN SMY: children perform well at key stage two. 238 00:10:01,367 --> 00:10:03,939 COLIN SMY: So they've had a positive impact on the child's 239 00:10:03,940 --> 00:10:06,849 COLIN SMY: educational development and performance. 240 00:10:06,850 --> 00:10:09,159 COLIN SMY: Not to say that mums don't, but we know that 241 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:11,499 COLIN SMY: fathers and mothers provide different inputs, 242 00:10:11,500 --> 00:10:11,898 COLIN SMY: don't they? 243 00:10:11,899 --> 00:10:12,899 GED DOCHERTY: Hundred percent. 244 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,299 COLIN SMY: There is a huge impact of how fathers are able 245 00:10:16,300 --> 00:10:18,279 COLIN SMY: to support their babies in their lives and 246 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:20,669 COLIN SMY: that's why we do a lot of work in Blackpool 247 00:10:20,670 --> 00:10:24,219 COLIN SMY: around that. But to bring it back to yourself, 248 00:10:24,220 --> 00:10:27,669 COLIN SMY: and we're looking at Jake and Charlotte, is 249 00:10:27,670 --> 00:10:30,099 COLIN SMY: the impact that you see in your teams — because 250 00:10:30,100 --> 00:10:31,712 COLIN SMY: you'll have some families where father is 251 00:10:33,250 --> 00:10:35,859 COLIN SMY: present with mum, some families where father 252 00:10:35,860 --> 00:10:37,809 COLIN SMY: isn't present at all, and some families, I'm 253 00:10:37,810 --> 00:10:39,819 COLIN SMY: sure, where father is actually the main parent 254 00:10:39,820 --> 00:10:42,669 COLIN SMY: that you come across and the primary caregiver. 255 00:10:42,670 --> 00:10:44,619 COLIN SMY: So it's just asking for your reflections really 256 00:10:44,620 --> 00:10:47,799 COLIN SMY: on what you see the challenges are for 257 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,739 COLIN SMY: men. We've established that men and fathers are 258 00:10:50,740 --> 00:10:52,209 COLIN SMY: important in child's lives. 259 00:10:52,210 --> 00:10:54,011 COLIN SMY: We know that. We've got reports to prove it now, 260 00:10:54,012 --> 00:10:56,999 COLIN SMY: and we can see the impact of the power 261 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,589 COLIN SMY: of play on children. 262 00:10:59,590 --> 00:11:02,979 COLIN SMY: But, for you, where do you see that importance 263 00:11:02,980 --> 00:11:06,129 COLIN SMY: for fathers and what are 264 00:11:06,130 --> 00:11:09,189 COLIN SMY: the challenges that fathers face in being 265 00:11:09,190 --> 00:11:10,407 COLIN SMY: involved in early intervention? 266 00:11:12,039 --> 00:11:15,669 GED DOCHERTY: That is a really complicated question. 267 00:11:15,670 --> 00:11:16,519 COLIN SMY: Very complicated. 268 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,329 GED DOCHERTY: It is a complicated question. 269 00:11:19,330 --> 00:11:22,719 GED DOCHERTY: So let me try and hang my hat on something. 270 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:24,572 GED DOCHERTY: I guess, from a personal perspective, I 271 00:11:25,810 --> 00:11:29,109 GED DOCHERTY: spent a lifetime in various roles working 272 00:11:29,110 --> 00:11:31,479 GED DOCHERTY: with children and families where I would sit 273 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:33,789 GED DOCHERTY: round the table and I would be the only man. 274 00:11:33,790 --> 00:11:37,269 GED DOCHERTY: And now my eternal question was 275 00:11:37,270 --> 00:11:39,519 GED DOCHERTY: where are the men? Where are the dads? 276 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:42,099 GED DOCHERTY: Why is dad not here? I did that as a family 277 00:11:42,100 --> 00:11:45,849 GED DOCHERTY: worker, I did it as a social worker, and 278 00:11:45,850 --> 00:11:48,879 GED DOCHERTY: men always seem to be missing. 279 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:51,459 GED DOCHERTY: And I was always extremely curious about why 280 00:11:51,460 --> 00:11:53,739 GED DOCHERTY: we couldn't pull them into the circle. 281 00:11:53,740 --> 00:11:56,889 GED DOCHERTY: And when I think about it, you and I were 282 00:11:56,890 --> 00:12:00,039 GED DOCHERTY: recently involved in that 283 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:02,679 GED DOCHERTY: roundtable discussion when we got put into 284 00:12:02,680 --> 00:12:05,749 GED DOCHERTY: groups and I got put into a group with five 285 00:12:05,750 --> 00:12:07,789 GED DOCHERTY: other women. And I said, "this has been my 286 00:12:07,790 --> 00:12:10,459 GED DOCHERTY: career". And then he split us up and put 287 00:12:10,460 --> 00:12:12,799 GED DOCHERTY: another man in the group. And I thought, our 288 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,829 GED DOCHERTY: world is populated by women, 289 00:12:15,830 --> 00:12:17,479 GED DOCHERTY: the world that you and I work in. 290 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:17,521 COLIN SMY: Yeah. 291 00:12:17,522 --> 00:12:20,479 GED DOCHERTY: We are a very small group of men 292 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:22,039 GED DOCHERTY: who do this work. 293 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:24,509 GED DOCHERTY: And if we feel it, those dads out there feel 294 00:12:24,510 --> 00:12:27,649 GED DOCHERTY: it. They may perceive that society 295 00:12:27,650 --> 00:12:30,735 GED DOCHERTY: has created roles for women and 296 00:12:30,736 --> 00:12:33,379 GED DOCHERTY: roles for men. And you're over there and if 297 00:12:33,380 --> 00:12:35,509 GED DOCHERTY: we need owt, will ask you. 298 00:12:35,510 --> 00:12:38,599 GED DOCHERTY: And it's about encouraging those men 299 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:41,719 GED DOCHERTY: not to see the world that way, to see 300 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,689 GED DOCHERTY: the joy in their baby, in 301 00:12:44,690 --> 00:12:48,529 GED DOCHERTY: their child, to acknowledge and accept 302 00:12:48,530 --> 00:12:51,529 GED DOCHERTY: the considerable influence that 303 00:12:51,530 --> 00:12:53,119 GED DOCHERTY: they can have on their child. 304 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,309 GED DOCHERTY: We talk about it with our For Baby's Sake 305 00:12:55,310 --> 00:12:58,339 GED DOCHERTY: dads all the time. From the minute we meet 306 00:12:58,340 --> 00:13:00,709 GED DOCHERTY: them, we say to them, "We can't do this 307 00:13:00,710 --> 00:13:03,739 GED DOCHERTY: without you." This will not happen if 308 00:13:03,740 --> 00:13:07,039 GED DOCHERTY: you don't join in and join in now 309 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:09,199 GED DOCHERTY: and get the ball rolling. 310 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:12,379 GED DOCHERTY: Increase your presence with 311 00:13:12,380 --> 00:13:14,569 GED DOCHERTY: your partner and your baby. 312 00:13:14,570 --> 00:13:17,389 GED DOCHERTY: Find your strength, find your role, find your 313 00:13:17,390 --> 00:13:21,049 GED DOCHERTY: groove. What can you bring to the table? 314 00:13:21,050 --> 00:13:24,169 GED DOCHERTY: And it's that openness that we bring 315 00:13:24,170 --> 00:13:27,489 GED DOCHERTY: into the situation, going back to the 316 00:13:27,490 --> 00:13:30,139 GED DOCHERTY: the lack of judgement that I talked about. 317 00:13:30,140 --> 00:13:33,019 GED DOCHERTY: And it's saying to that dad, "we need you. 318 00:13:33,020 --> 00:13:34,279 GED DOCHERTY: Your baby needs you. 319 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,319 GED DOCHERTY: This situation needs you. 320 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,379 GED DOCHERTY: And if you put yourself 321 00:13:39,380 --> 00:13:42,409 GED DOCHERTY: as an investment into the bank — see 322 00:13:42,410 --> 00:13:45,649 GED DOCHERTY: your baby as a bank account — invest from day 323 00:13:45,650 --> 00:13:48,319 GED DOCHERTY: one and you will get paid back. 324 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,199 GED DOCHERTY: You will have returns in the future when your 325 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,589 GED DOCHERTY: child thrives and you have contributed 326 00:13:54,590 --> 00:13:56,479 GED DOCHERTY: significantly to that." 327 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:58,959 OWEN: What it felt like to them to have been included like 328 00:13:58,960 --> 00:13:58,966 OWEN: that. 329 00:13:58,967 --> 00:14:00,649 JAKE: It's been amazing. 330 00:14:00,650 --> 00:14:03,679 JAKE: I mean, at the end of the day, a lot 331 00:14:03,680 --> 00:14:06,859 JAKE: of services now mostly, especially 332 00:14:06,860 --> 00:14:10,249 JAKE: with with what For Baby's Sake offer towards people, 333 00:14:10,250 --> 00:14:12,709 JAKE: towards people that have been involved in 334 00:14:12,710 --> 00:14:14,449 JAKE: relationships that've had domestic violence 335 00:14:14,450 --> 00:14:15,450 JAKE: incidents. 336 00:14:16,940 --> 00:14:20,899 JAKE: And a lot of services always 337 00:14:20,900 --> 00:14:23,569 JAKE: judge the perpetrator of that in the relationship, 338 00:14:23,570 --> 00:14:27,289 JAKE: when if services were to work with that perpetrator, 339 00:14:27,290 --> 00:14:30,709 JAKE: it would, you know, work wonders. 340 00:14:30,710 --> 00:14:32,599 JAKE: And it's just been great. 341 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,329 JAKE: And I would recommend it to anybody to work with For 342 00:14:35,330 --> 00:14:38,269 JAKE: Baby's Sake for that reason. 343 00:14:38,270 --> 00:14:39,529 JAKE: I mean, I've never felt judged. 344 00:14:39,530 --> 00:14:42,289 JAKE: I've never— I've never been judged whatsoever. 345 00:14:42,290 --> 00:14:44,759 JAKE: I've just had fair work. 346 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:47,509 JAKE: And, you know, and that's it. 347 00:14:47,510 --> 00:14:49,009 JAKE: It's been good. 348 00:14:49,010 --> 00:14:49,909 JAKE: Yeah. 349 00:14:49,910 --> 00:14:52,909 KAREN: And when we're talking about including Jake as 350 00:14:52,910 --> 00:14:54,880 KAREN: much as possible in Isabella's early life, 351 00:14:56,570 --> 00:14:58,759 KAREN: how do you think that helped? The programme's helped 352 00:14:58,760 --> 00:14:58,980 KAREN: with that? 353 00:14:58,981 --> 00:15:02,629 CHARLOTTE: I think it's it's always important 354 00:15:02,630 --> 00:15:04,609 CHARLOTTE: for us both to be included. 355 00:15:04,610 --> 00:15:07,759 CHARLOTTE: It was— it's easy to just think that I'm 356 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,450 CHARLOTTE: the only parent when I'm Isabella's sole carer. 357 00:15:12,350 --> 00:15:14,281 CHARLOTTE: It was good to get each other's point 358 00:15:15,860 --> 00:15:19,039 CHARLOTTE: of view. So when we were doing our sessions, 359 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,710 CHARLOTTE: we always spoke about Jake. 360 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,639 CHARLOTTE: We had a meeting once, like a review, and 361 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,719 CHARLOTTE: whilst Jake was in custody, he was able to 362 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:31,043 CHARLOTTE: record stories for Isabella. And Karen I don't think 363 00:15:34,370 --> 00:15:36,596 CHARLOTTE: had ever heard Jake's voice and Ged had never 364 00:15:36,597 --> 00:15:39,229 CHARLOTTE: heard Jake's voice, but we got to share the 365 00:15:39,230 --> 00:15:40,546 CHARLOTTE: story that Jake had read for Isabella 366 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,989 CHARLOTTE: in that session, which was really nice because 367 00:15:44,990 --> 00:15:48,109 CHARLOTTE: you got to know Jake a little bit and listen 368 00:15:48,110 --> 00:15:50,209 CHARLOTTE: to his story for Isabella. 369 00:15:50,210 --> 00:15:53,299 GED DOCHERTY: Men need to believe that they are valued 370 00:15:53,300 --> 00:15:54,300 GED DOCHERTY: as a parent and not all men do. 371 00:15:56,750 --> 00:15:58,489 COLIN SMY: I think it's fantastically put that because I 372 00:15:58,490 --> 00:16:01,459 COLIN SMY: think what we come across, it's that 373 00:16:01,460 --> 00:16:04,699 COLIN SMY: value as a parent. And it's not even that value 374 00:16:04,700 --> 00:16:07,550 COLIN SMY: as a father it's a value as a parent, being 375 00:16:07,551 --> 00:16:09,289 COLIN SMY: acknowledged as a parent. 376 00:16:09,290 --> 00:16:10,789 COLIN SMY: There is an argument for having their own 377 00:16:10,790 --> 00:16:14,119 COLIN SMY: identity as a father, and the advice for 378 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:15,745 COLIN SMY: anyone listening who works with dads is to 379 00:16:17,210 --> 00:16:20,419 COLIN SMY: reinforce dad's role at as early an opportunity 380 00:16:20,420 --> 00:16:21,559 COLIN SMY: as possible. 381 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:22,159 GED DOCHERTY: Absolutely. 382 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:25,129 COLIN SMY: Talk to him about his role and value 383 00:16:25,130 --> 00:16:28,829 COLIN SMY: as a parent and his own identity as well. 384 00:16:28,830 --> 00:16:31,009 COLIN SMY: And I think this is where in Blackpool we're 385 00:16:31,010 --> 00:16:32,719 COLIN SMY: trying to look at things differently. Everywhere 386 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:34,717 COLIN SMY: else in the country you see people putting up 387 00:16:34,718 --> 00:16:36,739 COLIN SMY: 'dads stay and play', dads this, dads that. 388 00:16:36,740 --> 00:16:38,929 COLIN SMY: Sooner or later, that funding runs out for the 389 00:16:38,930 --> 00:16:41,839 COLIN SMY: duplicated activity that's just on for dads. 390 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,089 COLIN SMY: And then dads look at the timetables and say, 391 00:16:44,090 --> 00:16:45,359 COLIN SMY: "Oh, well there's nothing that says 'dads' in it, 392 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:45,922 COLIN SMY: I can't go". 393 00:16:45,923 --> 00:16:48,588 GED DOCHERTY: It says parent and toddler, so I can't go. 394 00:16:48,589 --> 00:16:49,969 COLIN SMY: Yeah, exactly. 395 00:16:49,970 --> 00:16:52,039 COLIN SMY: Instead of thinking "I can go to everything and 396 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:52,599 COLIN SMY: I'm invited to everything. 397 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:53,600 GED DOCHERTY: Because I'm a parent. 398 00:16:54,050 --> 00:16:55,369 COLIN SMY: Because I'm a parent. 399 00:16:55,370 --> 00:16:56,839 COLIN SMY: And what we've... 400 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,299 COLIN SMY: When we actually listen to dads, and this is a 401 00:16:59,300 --> 00:17:01,669 COLIN SMY: mistake, I think — it's not a mistake, I think 402 00:17:01,670 --> 00:17:03,709 COLIN SMY: it's the misinterpretation that people make 403 00:17:03,710 --> 00:17:06,809 COLIN SMY: sometimes — they put on activities specifically 404 00:17:06,810 --> 00:17:07,923 COLIN SMY: for dads, thinking that'll make them come. 405 00:17:08,910 --> 00:17:10,858 COLIN SMY: When you listen to dads they're not saying I 406 00:17:10,859 --> 00:17:12,868 COLIN SMY: want an activity that is just for dads, that is 407 00:17:12,869 --> 00:17:15,059 COLIN SMY: just for me. I would just like there to be more 408 00:17:15,060 --> 00:17:17,848 COLIN SMY: dads there. Nines times out of ten, when you 409 00:17:17,849 --> 00:17:19,499 COLIN SMY: translate what they're saying to you, that's 410 00:17:19,500 --> 00:17:20,939 COLIN SMY: what they're telling you: "I just wish there was 411 00:17:20,940 --> 00:17:22,919 COLIN SMY: more dads there." Because then I wouldn't feel 412 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,139 COLIN SMY: that the only person in the room. 413 00:17:25,140 --> 00:17:26,694 GED DOCHERTY: Do you know one of the saddest things that 414 00:17:26,695 --> 00:17:28,829 GED DOCHERTY: I've heard during my time in For Baby's Sake. 415 00:17:28,830 --> 00:17:31,679 GED DOCHERTY: So, working with this couple, we're still 416 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,679 GED DOCHERTY: working with them now, when baby 417 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,889 GED DOCHERTY: was... Their son was only a few 418 00:17:37,890 --> 00:17:41,069 GED DOCHERTY: weeks old, we were doing a craft 419 00:17:41,070 --> 00:17:43,889 GED DOCHERTY: activity with mum and dad downstairs in our 420 00:17:43,890 --> 00:17:46,709 GED DOCHERTY: family hub. And we were going to do 421 00:17:46,710 --> 00:17:49,819 GED DOCHERTY: footprints that they could frame 422 00:17:49,820 --> 00:17:52,829 GED DOCHERTY: and keep a snapshot of that moment 423 00:17:52,830 --> 00:17:55,259 GED DOCHERTY: in time of that child's life. 424 00:17:55,260 --> 00:17:57,750 GED DOCHERTY: And dad was kind of on the sidelines and mum 425 00:17:57,751 --> 00:18:00,899 GED DOCHERTY: was getting stuck in, enjoying the crafty, 426 00:18:00,900 --> 00:18:03,899 GED DOCHERTY: creative aspect, whilst we were still having 427 00:18:03,900 --> 00:18:06,629 GED DOCHERTY: those conversations about the importance of 428 00:18:06,630 --> 00:18:09,119 GED DOCHERTY: play and connecting with their baby. 429 00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:11,819 GED DOCHERTY: And I could see that he was really hesitant. 430 00:18:11,820 --> 00:18:14,429 GED DOCHERTY: And I said to him, "Are you okay? 431 00:18:14,430 --> 00:18:17,909 GED DOCHERTY: Does this feel okay for you?" And he said, 432 00:18:17,910 --> 00:18:20,489 GED DOCHERTY: "I don't know how to do it." And I said to 433 00:18:20,490 --> 00:18:22,409 GED DOCHERTY: him, "Well, which bit? 434 00:18:22,410 --> 00:18:25,889 GED DOCHERTY: Which don't you know how to do?" And he said, 435 00:18:25,890 --> 00:18:26,969 GED DOCHERTY: "I don't know how to play. 436 00:18:28,210 --> 00:18:31,219 GED DOCHERTY: No one taught me how to play." He'd lived 437 00:18:31,220 --> 00:18:33,999 GED DOCHERTY: with his birth family and then he was 438 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,809 GED DOCHERTY: fostered and lived in a number of families 439 00:18:37,810 --> 00:18:39,909 GED DOCHERTY: and then went into a children's home. 440 00:18:39,910 --> 00:18:43,269 GED DOCHERTY: And at no point along that journey did anyone 441 00:18:43,270 --> 00:18:46,233 GED DOCHERTY: teach that man as a child how to play. 442 00:18:46,234 --> 00:18:49,179 COLIN SMY: And that's his own trauma that he's had to 443 00:18:49,180 --> 00:18:51,639 COLIN SMY: grow up with. And now he's an adult, and 444 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,129 COLIN SMY: probably being chastised for not being able to 445 00:18:54,130 --> 00:18:55,599 COLIN SMY: parent his own child. 446 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:55,703 GED DOCHERTY: Yeah. 447 00:18:55,704 --> 00:18:57,969 COLIN SMY: Because nobody sat down with him to give him the 448 00:18:57,970 --> 00:19:00,459 COLIN SMY: time to actually ask him, you know, "what's 449 00:19:00,460 --> 00:19:02,079 COLIN SMY: happened? How have you done?" And they're just presuming he's 450 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:02,358 COLIN SMY: not interested. 451 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:05,979 GED DOCHERTY: We make assumptions in the work that we do 452 00:19:05,980 --> 00:19:08,559 GED DOCHERTY: and we need to sometimes as professionals 453 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:11,559 GED DOCHERTY: check ourselves and we need to check in that 454 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,859 GED DOCHERTY: someone actually knows or has 455 00:19:16,120 --> 00:19:18,819 GED DOCHERTY: the confidence to be able to share what he 456 00:19:18,820 --> 00:19:21,549 GED DOCHERTY: did. He was able to share that because we'd 457 00:19:21,550 --> 00:19:24,609 GED DOCHERTY: put the investment in during the term of the 458 00:19:24,610 --> 00:19:27,429 GED DOCHERTY: pregnancy. If we'd just met him at that 459 00:19:27,430 --> 00:19:29,469 GED DOCHERTY: moment in time and he didn't know us, I 460 00:19:29,470 --> 00:19:30,999 GED DOCHERTY: wouldn't tell anyone that. 461 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,159 GED DOCHERTY: But he was able to tell us that because he 462 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:36,009 GED DOCHERTY: felt safe, because he knew in that moment in 463 00:19:36,010 --> 00:19:39,039 GED DOCHERTY: time we would respond appropriately and 464 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,279 GED DOCHERTY: we wouldn't judge him and find it ludicrous 465 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,339 GED DOCHERTY: that a grown man, who had contributed to 466 00:19:45,340 --> 00:19:47,739 GED DOCHERTY: the birth of a child, did not know how to 467 00:19:47,740 --> 00:19:48,339 GED DOCHERTY: play. 468 00:19:48,340 --> 00:19:50,244 COLIN SMY: Yeah, it's when people talk about having the 469 00:19:50,245 --> 00:19:51,849 COLIN SMY: perfect parents, isn't it. 470 00:19:51,850 --> 00:19:53,215 COLIN SMY: You quite often can't get the perfect parents. You can 471 00:19:54,100 --> 00:19:57,279 COLIN SMY: only parent off what you've learnt as 472 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:00,519 COLIN SMY: a child or what you're experiencing 473 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:02,619 COLIN SMY: as an adult and what you're being taught. And it's much 474 00:20:02,620 --> 00:20:05,769 COLIN SMY: the same within— I think, when there's the 475 00:20:05,770 --> 00:20:08,529 COLIN SMY: expectation that it's okay, father doesn't need 476 00:20:08,530 --> 00:20:11,649 COLIN SMY: to know. Actually sometimes that's excusing 477 00:20:11,650 --> 00:20:13,539 COLIN SMY: their ability to be able to parent. 478 00:20:13,540 --> 00:20:15,759 COLIN SMY: So all that's doing is it actually probably ends 479 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:17,529 COLIN SMY: up putting more pressure on mum because 480 00:20:17,530 --> 00:20:20,229 COLIN SMY: sometimes it disengages fathers because, you 481 00:20:20,230 --> 00:20:21,819 COLIN SMY: know, if you hadn't have been there to have that 482 00:20:21,820 --> 00:20:24,219 COLIN SMY: conversation with him or whoever it was had that 483 00:20:24,220 --> 00:20:26,649 COLIN SMY: conversation, would anybody have ever said to 484 00:20:26,650 --> 00:20:28,959 COLIN SMY: him, or he ever said to anybody, that he didn't 485 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,599 COLIN SMY: know what to do and then been able to get some 486 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:33,849 COLIN SMY: help and support and what to do and actually 487 00:20:33,850 --> 00:20:35,799 COLIN SMY: being told, you know, it's okay, we'll work 488 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,289 COLIN SMY: through this and you do what you feel is best. 489 00:20:38,290 --> 00:20:40,659 COLIN SMY: Would he have just disengaged himself from that 490 00:20:40,660 --> 00:20:41,770 COLIN SMY: relationship with the child there? 491 00:20:43,269 --> 00:20:43,388 GED DOCHERTY: Potentially, yeah. 492 00:20:43,389 --> 00:20:45,519 COLIN SMY: Yeah. The parent-infant relationship is then 493 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:47,859 COLIN SMY: broken down which potentially is putting more 494 00:20:47,860 --> 00:20:50,079 COLIN SMY: pressure on mum and puts more stress on the 495 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:51,719 COLIN SMY: relationship that you spoke about before. 496 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,019 GED DOCHERTY: Causes conflict and it goes round and round. 497 00:20:54,020 --> 00:20:55,839 COLIN SMY: It's the whole cycle. 498 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,479 COLIN SMY: For the first 1001 days of that baby's child 499 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:00,129 COLIN SMY: development, all they're seeing is stress, 500 00:21:00,130 --> 00:21:03,879 COLIN SMY: strain and the struggles, 501 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:07,029 COLIN SMY: the conflict and all of the toxic things that 502 00:21:07,030 --> 00:21:09,849 COLIN SMY: we don't want to introduce into a child's life. 503 00:21:09,850 --> 00:21:12,669 GED DOCHERTY: And there's no learning for that child about 504 00:21:12,670 --> 00:21:15,399 GED DOCHERTY: how to — going back to our earlier 505 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,859 GED DOCHERTY: conversation — how to self-sooth, 506 00:21:17,860 --> 00:21:20,014 GED DOCHERTY: self-regulate, form secure attachments, 507 00:21:20,015 --> 00:21:23,469 GED DOCHERTY: because all you see is this. 508 00:21:23,470 --> 00:21:26,109 GED DOCHERTY: You see that butting heads, that 509 00:21:26,110 --> 00:21:28,869 GED DOCHERTY: disagreement, those falling outs, those 510 00:21:28,870 --> 00:21:31,659 GED DOCHERTY: silences, all of that because people can't 511 00:21:31,660 --> 00:21:34,299 GED DOCHERTY: articulate. I think one of the other 512 00:21:34,300 --> 00:21:36,579 GED DOCHERTY: significant things that we do in For Baby's 513 00:21:36,580 --> 00:21:40,119 GED DOCHERTY: Sake is we teach our parents emotional 514 00:21:40,120 --> 00:21:41,469 GED DOCHERTY: literacy. 515 00:21:41,470 --> 00:21:44,439 GED DOCHERTY: People can say, "I'm thinking this, 516 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,409 GED DOCHERTY: I'm feeling this." So we 517 00:21:47,410 --> 00:21:51,339 GED DOCHERTY: give them both the verbal capacity 518 00:21:51,340 --> 00:21:54,309 GED DOCHERTY: and the emotional capacity to be able 519 00:21:54,310 --> 00:21:57,699 GED DOCHERTY: to speak it, to name it, to own 520 00:21:57,700 --> 00:22:00,189 GED DOCHERTY: it. All of that stuff is really, really 521 00:22:00,190 --> 00:22:01,190 GED DOCHERTY: important. 522 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,199 JAKE: I mean, I've learnt how to recognise 523 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,109 JAKE: my feelings, recognise my emotions, realise that it's 524 00:22:08,110 --> 00:22:09,110 JAKE: okay to walk away. 525 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,609 JAKE: If you're having a disagreement, it's okay to walk 526 00:22:12,610 --> 00:22:14,109 JAKE: away and leave that disagreement. 527 00:22:14,110 --> 00:22:16,299 JAKE: You don't have to sort it out there and then. 528 00:22:16,300 --> 00:22:18,849 JAKE: You're not going to lose your relationship over it. 529 00:22:18,850 --> 00:22:21,859 JAKE: You just walking away because it's the 530 00:22:21,860 --> 00:22:25,029 JAKE: better option. It's the better plan to keep both 531 00:22:25,030 --> 00:22:27,819 JAKE: yourself, your partner and your child out of harm's 532 00:22:27,820 --> 00:22:28,016 JAKE: way. 533 00:22:28,017 --> 00:22:31,059 COLIN SMY: The first 1001 days 534 00:22:31,060 --> 00:22:34,419 COLIN SMY: of Jake and Charlotte's baby's life 535 00:22:34,420 --> 00:22:37,329 COLIN SMY: could have gone a number of different ways; 536 00:22:37,330 --> 00:22:39,069 COLIN SMY: quite a few could have been negative. 537 00:22:39,070 --> 00:22:40,862 COLIN SMY: You know, Jake's in prison, Charlotte's 538 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:44,859 COLIN SMY: on her own, both of them have got their own 539 00:22:44,860 --> 00:22:48,099 COLIN SMY: traumas that they need to contend with on top 540 00:22:48,100 --> 00:22:50,144 COLIN SMY: of being parents and the stresses of they'll 541 00:22:50,145 --> 00:22:53,349 COLIN SMY: have there. And that early intervention has 542 00:22:53,350 --> 00:22:55,179 COLIN SMY: reduced the safeguarding because it's brought 543 00:22:55,180 --> 00:22:57,309 COLIN SMY: them together as a family. 544 00:22:57,310 --> 00:22:59,530 COLIN SMY: So, baby's already growing in utero; baby's 545 00:22:59,531 --> 00:23:02,269 COLIN SMY: born; and now because they're talking, they're 546 00:23:02,270 --> 00:23:04,869 COLIN SMY: communicating, and the home environment is much 547 00:23:04,870 --> 00:23:07,764 COLIN SMY: calmer, it's better for communication and 548 00:23:07,765 --> 00:23:09,039 COLIN SMY: language, better for the parent-infant 549 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:10,299 COLIN SMY: relationship. 550 00:23:10,300 --> 00:23:12,144 COLIN SMY: They've been able to come to the support 551 00:23:12,145 --> 00:23:14,019 COLIN SMY: sessions and classes to understand good child 552 00:23:14,020 --> 00:23:16,689 COLIN SMY: development, ensuring that they're not 553 00:23:16,690 --> 00:23:19,599 COLIN SMY: overloading them sensory through their play, but 554 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:21,429 COLIN SMY: also not overloading the sensory through 555 00:23:21,430 --> 00:23:24,279 COLIN SMY: arguments and conflict, and reducing all those 556 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:26,709 COLIN SMY: toxic inputs that can come in. 557 00:23:26,710 --> 00:23:29,379 COLIN SMY: And the therapeutic work that've come into it 558 00:23:29,380 --> 00:23:31,291 COLIN SMY: has supported 559 00:23:32,530 --> 00:23:35,709 COLIN SMY: the family of Jake, Charlotte and baby to 560 00:23:35,710 --> 00:23:38,199 COLIN SMY: try to identify the positives. If they could see 561 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,059 COLIN SMY: the positives of some things they're doing well, 562 00:23:40,060 --> 00:23:42,189 COLIN SMY: allows them the headspace to think actually I 563 00:23:42,190 --> 00:23:45,309 COLIN SMY: can go work on the other things now, because not 564 00:23:45,310 --> 00:23:47,449 COLIN SMY: to say that it minimalises it, but it makes them 565 00:23:47,450 --> 00:23:49,059 COLIN SMY: more absorbable. So when we were talking about 566 00:23:49,060 --> 00:23:51,489 COLIN SMY: the fist of all the things before being 567 00:23:51,490 --> 00:23:54,669 COLIN SMY: together, actually if we're able to offset 568 00:23:54,670 --> 00:23:57,171 COLIN SMY: the blow and the downtroddeness of 569 00:23:58,180 --> 00:24:00,099 COLIN SMY: those things that might not be going so well, it 570 00:24:00,100 --> 00:24:02,439 COLIN SMY: actually allows us to have some resilience to 571 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,109 COLIN SMY: them and address them and process them. 572 00:24:05,110 --> 00:24:07,719 COLIN SMY: Meaning that by the end of that 1001 days their 573 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,689 COLIN SMY: baby's brain has had the opportunity to develop 574 00:24:10,690 --> 00:24:12,691 COLIN SMY: and be ready for school, had all the input they 575 00:24:12,692 --> 00:24:16,059 COLIN SMY: need, got supportive relationships, understands 576 00:24:16,060 --> 00:24:18,459 COLIN SMY: their own position, their own social emotional 577 00:24:18,460 --> 00:24:21,519 COLIN SMY: development, so that their baby can grow up in 578 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:23,199 COLIN SMY: a different opportunity. 579 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,779 COLIN SMY: It's not to say we can make things better, it's 580 00:24:25,780 --> 00:24:28,119 COLIN SMY: to say that we can offer a different way and 581 00:24:28,120 --> 00:24:29,409 COLIN SMY: there's an alternative. 582 00:24:29,410 --> 00:24:32,529 COLIN SMY: And I think that somewhat sums up the 583 00:24:32,530 --> 00:24:34,119 COLIN SMY: conversation we've been having today. 584 00:24:40,410 --> 00:24:41,789 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Thanks to Colin and Ged for that 585 00:24:41,790 --> 00:24:43,559 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): really informative and thought-provoking 586 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,209 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): discussion on early intervention 587 00:24:45,210 --> 00:24:46,499 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): and supporting parents through 588 00:24:46,500 --> 00:24:48,569 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): adversity. I wanted to end this 589 00:24:48,570 --> 00:24:49,979 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): episode with a contribution 590 00:24:49,980 --> 00:24:51,449 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): from Charlotte who describes 591 00:24:51,450 --> 00:24:52,919 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): how For Baby's Sake has helped 592 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,019 GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): her on her parenting journey. 593 00:24:55,020 --> 00:24:58,349 CHARLOTTE: I think the confidence that I've gained from 594 00:24:58,350 --> 00:25:01,349 CHARLOTTE: For Baby's Sake is what has made 595 00:25:01,350 --> 00:25:04,319 CHARLOTTE: me go to university and 596 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,859 CHARLOTTE: want to get a career and better my life for 597 00:25:07,860 --> 00:25:08,860 CHARLOTTE: Isabella. 598 00:25:09,750 --> 00:25:11,759 CHARLOTTE: I'm going to university to become a paramedic, 599 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,069 CHARLOTTE: hopefully, and I would never have done that if I 600 00:25:14,070 --> 00:25:16,615 CHARLOTTE: didn't have the people around me helping 601 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,109 CHARLOTTE: me become more confident within myself, not just 602 00:25:22,110 --> 00:25:25,079 CHARLOTTE: my parenting, but me as a person becoming more 603 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:26,819 CHARLOTTE: confident. That's just something I would never 604 00:25:26,820 --> 00:25:27,820 CHARLOTTE: have done before. 605 00:25:31,940 --> 00:25:34,309 CONCLUSION: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning 606 00:25:34,310 --> 00:25:35,599 CONCLUSION: podcast. 607 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,699 CONCLUSION: At the time of recording, this episode's 608 00:25:37,700 --> 00:25:39,859 CONCLUSION: content was up to date, but the world of 609 00:25:39,860 --> 00:25:42,079 CONCLUSION: safeguarding and child protection is ever 610 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,899 CONCLUSION: changing. So if you're looking for the most 611 00:25:44,900 --> 00:25:46,749 CONCLUSION: current safeguarding and child protection 612 00:25:46,750 --> 00:25:50,359 CONCLUSION: training, information or resources, 613 00:25:50,360 --> 00:25:53,119 CONCLUSION: please visit our website for professionals at 614 00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:54,120 CONCLUSION: nspcc.org.uk/learning.