INTRODUCTION: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where
INTRODUCTION: we share learning and expertise in child
INTRODUCTION: protection from inside and outside of the
INTRODUCTION: organisation.
INTRODUCTION: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection
INTRODUCTION: and share good practice on how we can all
INTRODUCTION: work together to keep babies, children and
INTRODUCTION: young people safe.
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Welcome to the NSPCC Learning
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Podcast. This is the second
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): half of a conversation between
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Colin Smy from the NSPCC's
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Blackpool Better Start Service
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): and Ged Docherty, Team Manager
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): at For Baby's Sake in Blackpool.
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): The discussion, recorded in
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): September 2023, looks at how
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): For Baby's Sake uses therapeutic,
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): trauma-informed and strengths-based
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): approaches to support parents
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): going through adversity during
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): the early years.
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): In this part, Colin and Ged
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): will talk about why it's so important
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): to involve fathers in early
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): intervention. And if you
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): haven't listened to the first part of
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): the conversation yet, we advise
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): you do that before listening to
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): this episode.
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): We rejoin the conversation with
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Colin explaining why early
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): intervention is so important.
COLIN SMY: Well, what we're trying to do is reduce the
COLIN SMY: requirement of hitting the social care, you
COLIN SMY: know, after something's happened. We want to be
COLIN SMY: catching families and supporting them before
COLIN SMY: it's happened. And that's sometimes a challenge.
COLIN SMY: Early intervention and For Baby's Sake limits
COLIN SMY: the need for social work because nothing's
COLIN SMY: gone wrong, therefore.
COLIN SMY: You've worked on the positives.
COLIN SMY: You've really drawn out all positive assets
COLIN SMY: that the family has and built on those so
COLIN SMY: they're focusing on them rather than something
COLIN SMY: going wrong. So we're changing that narrative in
COLIN SMY: those early days for those babies to think...
COLIN SMY: to change the family; instead of trying
COLIN SMY: to avoid making a mistake, to start focusing on
COLIN SMY: doing the right things. And that's where it
COLIN SMY: becomes of a benefit for a child and we start to
COLIN SMY: move into the next area
COLIN SMY: that we look at around school readiness.
COLIN SMY: Because there is something about the fathers but
COLIN SMY: I can see you're dying to tell me something here.
GED DOCHERTY: Just before we get into that.
GED DOCHERTY: I think there's something else that I think
GED DOCHERTY: is really significant in terms of
GED DOCHERTY: safeguarding. So we have a particular
GED DOCHERTY: approach in For Baby's Sake, which is that we
GED DOCHERTY: eradicate the use of shame from
GED DOCHERTY: the work that we do.
GED DOCHERTY: When we have families who've been in
GED DOCHERTY: situations — multiple situations — that has
GED DOCHERTY: the potential to cause them to feel shame.
GED DOCHERTY: We take that shame away from the work that we
GED DOCHERTY: do but what we don't do
GED DOCHERTY: is take away accountability.
GED DOCHERTY: So we support people without the use
GED DOCHERTY: of shame to accept accountability and
GED DOCHERTY: responsibility for any behaviours
GED DOCHERTY: that are caused harm to them or others.
GED DOCHERTY: And we work on that.
GED DOCHERTY: But we do absolutely come from a
GED DOCHERTY: strengths-based and asset-based perspectives
GED DOCHERTY: because there will be stuff, we just need to
GED DOCHERTY: find it. We need to encourage those families
GED DOCHERTY: to identify it.
GED DOCHERTY: And when we find those gold nuggets, that's
GED DOCHERTY: where we start to build on it.
GED DOCHERTY: And that's, that's in harmony with
GED DOCHERTY: the other ways of working, the new models
GED DOCHERTY: of practice that are being developed in
GED DOCHERTY: Blackpool, especially like our Blackpool
GED DOCHERTY: family's model of practice.
COLIN SMY: Yeah, and I think those things really help
COLIN SMY: families face up to the adversities
COLIN SMY: that they come across on a daily basis.
COLIN SMY: Instead of those being, you know— individually,
COLIN SMY: you or I could, or most people could probably
COLIN SMY: cope with challenges around clothing, around
COLIN SMY: food, housing, parenting, education,
COLIN SMY: whatever it may be. But if we put — counting
COLIN SMY: them on your fingers — if you put all those five
COLIN SMY: things together at once, and make a fist.
COLIN SMY: And that's a lot for people to have to deal with
COLIN SMY: in one go. And you or I would struggle to deal
COLIN SMY: with all those in one go. One, two, possibly
COLIN SMY: even three you could deal with at a time but it
COLIN SMY: would be an inconvenience. But to deal with them
COLIN SMY: all at the same time, which we know in areas of
COLIN SMY: deprivation tends to be actually they're facing
COLIN SMY: multiple level of adversity.
COLIN SMY: So whilst we're going to talk about one thing
COLIN SMY: with parenting and how the children
COLIN SMY: are doing, actually, we've also got to bear in
COLIN SMY: mind that they might also be trying to figure
COLIN SMY: out how to put the heating on tonight.
COLIN SMY: They might also be trying to figure out how to put food
COLIN SMY: on the table or avoid other things that are
COLIN SMY: going on, make sure there's clothing.
COLIN SMY: So we kind of have to think about those
COLIN SMY: adversities and take the positives out where we
COLIN SMY: can to where people are doing well.
COLIN SMY: And it brings me to the question around the
COLIN SMY: therapeutic work — which I think is what you're
COLIN SMY: sort of leading into there — to face those
COLIN SMY: adversities that you might do to help families
COLIN SMY: rethink about what they're facing instead of us
COLIN SMY: stigmatising them.
COLIN SMY: And that's what ultimately leads to limiting
COLIN SMY: the safeguarding challenges that we have.
COLIN SMY: So what are some of those therapeutic — before
COLIN SMY: we go on to talk about fathers and school
COLIN SMY: readiness, that I've got jotted down here — what
COLIN SMY: are some of those therapeutic works that you do.
GED DOCHERTY: So I guess one of the things — because I'm
GED DOCHERTY: conscious we are limited on time —
GED DOCHERTY: but if we think about we,
GED DOCHERTY: the team and I, are trained in the use
GED DOCHERTY: of DBT — dialectical behavioural therapy.
GED DOCHERTY: One of the things that is really useful
GED DOCHERTY: within that concept is called a chain
GED DOCHERTY: analysis. And what that does is it supports
GED DOCHERTY: a person to think in a particular way.
GED DOCHERTY: We can all get trapped in cycles of unhelpful
GED DOCHERTY: thinking when we will go to a place of
GED DOCHERTY: negativity and a place of doom and gloom, and
GED DOCHERTY: especially if your circumstances are dire
GED DOCHERTY: to begin with.
GED DOCHERTY: And it's about supporting people
GED DOCHERTY: to go to a solution-focused
GED DOCHERTY: approach. Find ways of using
GED DOCHERTY: your inherent resources to get to where you
GED DOCHERTY: need to be. And if we think about the
GED DOCHERTY: situation that you just briefly described,
GED DOCHERTY: when you have all of that adversity to face:
GED DOCHERTY: the rising cost of living, the significant
GED DOCHERTY: rent increases.
GED DOCHERTY: The bulk of our housing stock in Blackpool is
GED DOCHERTY: privately rented housing stock and landlords
GED DOCHERTY: are feeling the pinch and they're increasing
GED DOCHERTY: the rent and it's one thing after another and
GED DOCHERTY: that of itself is enough to
GED DOCHERTY: trigger conflict in any relationship.
GED DOCHERTY: So in our work we completely recognise
GED DOCHERTY: the impact that all of those things can have.
GED DOCHERTY: We have a global view of that family's
GED DOCHERTY: circumstances. We adopt a whole
GED DOCHERTY: family approach. We take it all into
GED DOCHERTY: consideration and we work in partnership with
GED DOCHERTY: parents to think, okay, if we can, if we can
GED DOCHERTY: tackle this, let's box that off.
GED DOCHERTY: We'll access some funding for
GED DOCHERTY: you for that, we'll make a grant application
GED DOCHERTY: to them; discretionary, and the whole time
GED DOCHERTY: we're supporting that family to spin those
GED DOCHERTY: plates and hopefully reducing
GED DOCHERTY: the potential for conflict in that situation
GED DOCHERTY: whilst developing new skills, new approaches,
GED DOCHERTY: new ways of thinking, new ways of being.
COLIN SMY: Yeah.
COLIN SMY: And I think what's important is when we reduce
COLIN SMY: those challenges, it's allowed us — and
COLIN SMY: obviously within your Baby's Sake team — to
COLIN SMY: bring those families.
COLIN SMY: And I think it's a safe bet to describe it as
COLIN SMY: you brought those families to the starting line.
COLIN SMY: Really, when we look at a lot of other families,
COLIN SMY: we've had children growing up who haven't been
COLIN SMY: able to take themselves to services with our
COLIN SMY: babies and just join in from the off.
COLIN SMY: Some of our families who are facing those
COLIN SMY: adversities need to navigate that to start with.
COLIN SMY: In the early days of their children, their
COLIN SMY: baby's lives.
COLIN SMY: They need that therapeutic way to get to the
COLIN SMY: starting line. So the other things that we
COLIN SMY: implement through Better Start, and I know
COLIN SMY: you've seen, the parent-infant relationships —
COLIN SMY: so being able to address that and understanding
COLIN SMY: how that triad of the parent
COLIN SMY: and the baby works and how important and
COLIN SMY: invaluable is. And then understanding home
COLIN SMY: learning environments, because it's not just
COLIN SMY: about being at nursery or a stay-in place, it's
COLIN SMY: understanding actually in the home how you
COLIN SMY: experience that. And I think we've seen that
COLIN SMY: with Jake and Charlotte in the way they've
COLIN SMY: spoken about their lives changing
COLIN SMY: and moving forward.
COLIN SMY: I think there's clips within there where they're
COLIN SMY: talking about they've changed their
COLIN SMY: relationship, they've changed their outlooks,
COLIN SMY: they've changed the way they view their impact
COLIN SMY: as parents, especially Jake.
COLIN SMY: His impact being a father, which probably
COLIN SMY: brings us to the latter areas of talking about
COLIN SMY: why it's important to to include families
COLIN SMY: in early intervention.
COLIN SMY: We already know, we've spoken about, fathers who
COLIN SMY: are actively involved have a positive impact on
COLIN SMY: children's education, their attainment, the
COLIN SMY: social emotional development,
COLIN SMY: how they form relationships with others, with
COLIN SMY: their reading, with lots of things.
COLIN SMY: And inversely, those who aren't involved have
COLIN SMY: the opposite impact.
COLIN SMY: One of the other aspects that's come up
COLIN SMY: recently, which supports school readiness,
COLIN SMY: is a study recently
COLIN SMY: by Leeds University and Fatherhood Institute —
COLIN SMY: it's been a long term study — has looked at the
COLIN SMY: impact of involved fathers
COLIN SMY: in children's education. And they've established
COLIN SMY: the actual specific age ranges in
COLIN SMY: the years of the children we're talking about
COLIN SMY: here, they just about snip into the 1001 day
COLIN SMY: bracket, because at age three, in the third
COLIN SMY: year, a father who's involved in a child's
COLIN SMY: education, has a positive impact on their
COLIN SMY: key stage results at age 11.
COLIN SMY: So they've tracked enough children involved with
COLIN SMY: fathers now from that age three
COLIN SMY: up to age 11 and been able to see a consistent
COLIN SMY: pattern of involved fathers at three, their
COLIN SMY: children perform well at key stage two.
COLIN SMY: So they've had a positive impact on the child's
COLIN SMY: educational development and performance.
COLIN SMY: Not to say that mums don't, but we know that
COLIN SMY: fathers and mothers provide different inputs,
COLIN SMY: don't they?
GED DOCHERTY: Hundred percent.
COLIN SMY: There is a huge impact of how fathers are able
COLIN SMY: to support their babies in their lives and
COLIN SMY: that's why we do a lot of work in Blackpool
COLIN SMY: around that. But to bring it back to yourself,
COLIN SMY: and we're looking at Jake and Charlotte, is
COLIN SMY: the impact that you see in your teams — because
COLIN SMY: you'll have some families where father is
COLIN SMY: present with mum, some families where father
COLIN SMY: isn't present at all, and some families, I'm
COLIN SMY: sure, where father is actually the main parent
COLIN SMY: that you come across and the primary caregiver.
COLIN SMY: So it's just asking for your reflections really
COLIN SMY: on what you see the challenges are for
COLIN SMY: men. We've established that men and fathers are
COLIN SMY: important in child's lives.
COLIN SMY: We know that. We've got reports to prove it now,
COLIN SMY: and we can see the impact of the power
COLIN SMY: of play on children.
COLIN SMY: But, for you, where do you see that importance
COLIN SMY: for fathers and what are
COLIN SMY: the challenges that fathers face in being
COLIN SMY: involved in early intervention?
GED DOCHERTY: That is a really complicated question.
COLIN SMY: Very complicated.
GED DOCHERTY: It is a complicated question.
GED DOCHERTY: So let me try and hang my hat on something.
GED DOCHERTY: I guess, from a personal perspective, I
GED DOCHERTY: spent a lifetime in various roles working
GED DOCHERTY: with children and families where I would sit
GED DOCHERTY: round the table and I would be the only man.
GED DOCHERTY: And now my eternal question was
GED DOCHERTY: where are the men? Where are the dads?
GED DOCHERTY: Why is dad not here? I did that as a family
GED DOCHERTY: worker, I did it as a social worker, and
GED DOCHERTY: men always seem to be missing.
GED DOCHERTY: And I was always extremely curious about why
GED DOCHERTY: we couldn't pull them into the circle.
GED DOCHERTY: And when I think about it, you and I were
GED DOCHERTY: recently involved in that
GED DOCHERTY: roundtable discussion when we got put into
GED DOCHERTY: groups and I got put into a group with five
GED DOCHERTY: other women. And I said, "this has been my
GED DOCHERTY: career". And then he split us up and put
GED DOCHERTY: another man in the group. And I thought, our
GED DOCHERTY: world is populated by women,
GED DOCHERTY: the world that you and I work in.
COLIN SMY: Yeah.
GED DOCHERTY: We are a very small group of men
GED DOCHERTY: who do this work.
GED DOCHERTY: And if we feel it, those dads out there feel
GED DOCHERTY: it. They may perceive that society
GED DOCHERTY: has created roles for women and
GED DOCHERTY: roles for men. And you're over there and if
GED DOCHERTY: we need owt, will ask you.
GED DOCHERTY: And it's about encouraging those men
GED DOCHERTY: not to see the world that way, to see
GED DOCHERTY: the joy in their baby, in
GED DOCHERTY: their child, to acknowledge and accept
GED DOCHERTY: the considerable influence that
GED DOCHERTY: they can have on their child.
GED DOCHERTY: We talk about it with our For Baby's Sake
GED DOCHERTY: dads all the time. From the minute we meet
GED DOCHERTY: them, we say to them, "We can't do this
GED DOCHERTY: without you." This will not happen if
GED DOCHERTY: you don't join in and join in now
GED DOCHERTY: and get the ball rolling.
GED DOCHERTY: Increase your presence with
GED DOCHERTY: your partner and your baby.
GED DOCHERTY: Find your strength, find your role, find your
GED DOCHERTY: groove. What can you bring to the table?
GED DOCHERTY: And it's that openness that we bring
GED DOCHERTY: into the situation, going back to the
GED DOCHERTY: the lack of judgement that I talked about.
GED DOCHERTY: And it's saying to that dad, "we need you.
GED DOCHERTY: Your baby needs you.
GED DOCHERTY: This situation needs you.
GED DOCHERTY: And if you put yourself
GED DOCHERTY: as an investment into the bank — see
GED DOCHERTY: your baby as a bank account — invest from day
GED DOCHERTY: one and you will get paid back.
GED DOCHERTY: You will have returns in the future when your
GED DOCHERTY: child thrives and you have contributed
GED DOCHERTY: significantly to that."
OWEN: What it felt like to them to have been included like
OWEN: that.
JAKE: It's been amazing.
JAKE: I mean, at the end of the day, a lot
JAKE: of services now mostly, especially
JAKE: with with what For Baby's Sake offer towards people,
JAKE: towards people that have been involved in
JAKE: relationships that've had domestic violence
JAKE: incidents.
JAKE: And a lot of services always
JAKE: judge the perpetrator of that in the relationship,
JAKE: when if services were to work with that perpetrator,
JAKE: it would, you know, work wonders.
JAKE: And it's just been great.
JAKE: And I would recommend it to anybody to work with For
JAKE: Baby's Sake for that reason.
JAKE: I mean, I've never felt judged.
JAKE: I've never— I've never been judged whatsoever.
JAKE: I've just had fair work.
JAKE: And, you know, and that's it.
JAKE: It's been good.
JAKE: Yeah.
KAREN: And when we're talking about including Jake as
KAREN: much as possible in Isabella's early life,
KAREN: how do you think that helped? The programme's helped
KAREN: with that?
CHARLOTTE: I think it's it's always important
CHARLOTTE: for us both to be included.
CHARLOTTE: It was— it's easy to just think that I'm
CHARLOTTE: the only parent when I'm Isabella's sole carer.
CHARLOTTE: It was good to get each other's point
CHARLOTTE: of view. So when we were doing our sessions,
CHARLOTTE: we always spoke about Jake.
CHARLOTTE: We had a meeting once, like a review, and
CHARLOTTE: whilst Jake was in custody, he was able to
CHARLOTTE: record stories for Isabella. And Karen I don't think
CHARLOTTE: had ever heard Jake's voice and Ged had never
CHARLOTTE: heard Jake's voice, but we got to share the
CHARLOTTE: story that Jake had read for Isabella
CHARLOTTE: in that session, which was really nice because
CHARLOTTE: you got to know Jake a little bit and listen
CHARLOTTE: to his story for Isabella.
GED DOCHERTY: Men need to believe that they are valued
GED DOCHERTY: as a parent and not all men do.
COLIN SMY: I think it's fantastically put that because I
COLIN SMY: think what we come across, it's that
COLIN SMY: value as a parent. And it's not even that value
COLIN SMY: as a father it's a value as a parent, being
COLIN SMY: acknowledged as a parent.
COLIN SMY: There is an argument for having their own
COLIN SMY: identity as a father, and the advice for
COLIN SMY: anyone listening who works with dads is to
COLIN SMY: reinforce dad's role at as early an opportunity
COLIN SMY: as possible.
GED DOCHERTY: Absolutely.
COLIN SMY: Talk to him about his role and value
COLIN SMY: as a parent and his own identity as well.
COLIN SMY: And I think this is where in Blackpool we're
COLIN SMY: trying to look at things differently. Everywhere
COLIN SMY: else in the country you see people putting up
COLIN SMY: 'dads stay and play', dads this, dads that.
COLIN SMY: Sooner or later, that funding runs out for the
COLIN SMY: duplicated activity that's just on for dads.
COLIN SMY: And then dads look at the timetables and say,
COLIN SMY: "Oh, well there's nothing that says 'dads' in it,
COLIN SMY: I can't go".
GED DOCHERTY: It says parent and toddler, so I can't go.
COLIN SMY: Yeah, exactly.
COLIN SMY: Instead of thinking "I can go to everything and
COLIN SMY: I'm invited to everything.
GED DOCHERTY: Because I'm a parent.
COLIN SMY: Because I'm a parent.
COLIN SMY: And what we've...
COLIN SMY: When we actually listen to dads, and this is a
COLIN SMY: mistake, I think — it's not a mistake, I think
COLIN SMY: it's the misinterpretation that people make
COLIN SMY: sometimes — they put on activities specifically
COLIN SMY: for dads, thinking that'll make them come.
COLIN SMY: When you listen to dads they're not saying I
COLIN SMY: want an activity that is just for dads, that is
COLIN SMY: just for me. I would just like there to be more
COLIN SMY: dads there. Nines times out of ten, when you
COLIN SMY: translate what they're saying to you, that's
COLIN SMY: what they're telling you: "I just wish there was
COLIN SMY: more dads there." Because then I wouldn't feel
COLIN SMY: that the only person in the room.
GED DOCHERTY: Do you know one of the saddest things that
GED DOCHERTY: I've heard during my time in For Baby's Sake.
GED DOCHERTY: So, working with this couple, we're still
GED DOCHERTY: working with them now, when baby
GED DOCHERTY: was... Their son was only a few
GED DOCHERTY: weeks old, we were doing a craft
GED DOCHERTY: activity with mum and dad downstairs in our
GED DOCHERTY: family hub. And we were going to do
GED DOCHERTY: footprints that they could frame
GED DOCHERTY: and keep a snapshot of that moment
GED DOCHERTY: in time of that child's life.
GED DOCHERTY: And dad was kind of on the sidelines and mum
GED DOCHERTY: was getting stuck in, enjoying the crafty,
GED DOCHERTY: creative aspect, whilst we were still having
GED DOCHERTY: those conversations about the importance of
GED DOCHERTY: play and connecting with their baby.
GED DOCHERTY: And I could see that he was really hesitant.
GED DOCHERTY: And I said to him, "Are you okay?
GED DOCHERTY: Does this feel okay for you?" And he said,
GED DOCHERTY: "I don't know how to do it." And I said to
GED DOCHERTY: him, "Well, which bit?
GED DOCHERTY: Which don't you know how to do?" And he said,
GED DOCHERTY: "I don't know how to play.
GED DOCHERTY: No one taught me how to play." He'd lived
GED DOCHERTY: with his birth family and then he was
GED DOCHERTY: fostered and lived in a number of families
GED DOCHERTY: and then went into a children's home.
GED DOCHERTY: And at no point along that journey did anyone
GED DOCHERTY: teach that man as a child how to play.
COLIN SMY: And that's his own trauma that he's had to
COLIN SMY: grow up with. And now he's an adult, and
COLIN SMY: probably being chastised for not being able to
COLIN SMY: parent his own child.
GED DOCHERTY: Yeah.
COLIN SMY: Because nobody sat down with him to give him the
COLIN SMY: time to actually ask him, you know, "what's
COLIN SMY: happened? How have you done?" And they're just presuming he's
COLIN SMY: not interested.
GED DOCHERTY: We make assumptions in the work that we do
GED DOCHERTY: and we need to sometimes as professionals
GED DOCHERTY: check ourselves and we need to check in that
GED DOCHERTY: someone actually knows or has
GED DOCHERTY: the confidence to be able to share what he
GED DOCHERTY: did. He was able to share that because we'd
GED DOCHERTY: put the investment in during the term of the
GED DOCHERTY: pregnancy. If we'd just met him at that
GED DOCHERTY: moment in time and he didn't know us, I
GED DOCHERTY: wouldn't tell anyone that.
GED DOCHERTY: But he was able to tell us that because he
GED DOCHERTY: felt safe, because he knew in that moment in
GED DOCHERTY: time we would respond appropriately and
GED DOCHERTY: we wouldn't judge him and find it ludicrous
GED DOCHERTY: that a grown man, who had contributed to
GED DOCHERTY: the birth of a child, did not know how to
GED DOCHERTY: play.
COLIN SMY: Yeah, it's when people talk about having the
COLIN SMY: perfect parents, isn't it.
COLIN SMY: You quite often can't get the perfect parents. You can
COLIN SMY: only parent off what you've learnt as
COLIN SMY: a child or what you're experiencing
COLIN SMY: as an adult and what you're being taught. And it's much
COLIN SMY: the same within— I think, when there's the
COLIN SMY: expectation that it's okay, father doesn't need
COLIN SMY: to know. Actually sometimes that's excusing
COLIN SMY: their ability to be able to parent.
COLIN SMY: So all that's doing is it actually probably ends
COLIN SMY: up putting more pressure on mum because
COLIN SMY: sometimes it disengages fathers because, you
COLIN SMY: know, if you hadn't have been there to have that
COLIN SMY: conversation with him or whoever it was had that
COLIN SMY: conversation, would anybody have ever said to
COLIN SMY: him, or he ever said to anybody, that he didn't
COLIN SMY: know what to do and then been able to get some
COLIN SMY: help and support and what to do and actually
COLIN SMY: being told, you know, it's okay, we'll work
COLIN SMY: through this and you do what you feel is best.
COLIN SMY: Would he have just disengaged himself from that
COLIN SMY: relationship with the child there?
GED DOCHERTY: Potentially, yeah.
COLIN SMY: Yeah. The parent-infant relationship is then
COLIN SMY: broken down which potentially is putting more
COLIN SMY: pressure on mum and puts more stress on the
COLIN SMY: relationship that you spoke about before.
GED DOCHERTY: Causes conflict and it goes round and round.
COLIN SMY: It's the whole cycle.
COLIN SMY: For the first 1001 days of that baby's child
COLIN SMY: development, all they're seeing is stress,
COLIN SMY: strain and the struggles,
COLIN SMY: the conflict and all of the toxic things that
COLIN SMY: we don't want to introduce into a child's life.
GED DOCHERTY: And there's no learning for that child about
GED DOCHERTY: how to — going back to our earlier
GED DOCHERTY: conversation — how to self-sooth,
GED DOCHERTY: self-regulate, form secure attachments,
GED DOCHERTY: because all you see is this.
GED DOCHERTY: You see that butting heads, that
GED DOCHERTY: disagreement, those falling outs, those
GED DOCHERTY: silences, all of that because people can't
GED DOCHERTY: articulate. I think one of the other
GED DOCHERTY: significant things that we do in For Baby's
GED DOCHERTY: Sake is we teach our parents emotional
GED DOCHERTY: literacy.
GED DOCHERTY: People can say, "I'm thinking this,
GED DOCHERTY: I'm feeling this." So we
GED DOCHERTY: give them both the verbal capacity
GED DOCHERTY: and the emotional capacity to be able
GED DOCHERTY: to speak it, to name it, to own
GED DOCHERTY: it. All of that stuff is really, really
GED DOCHERTY: important.
JAKE: I mean, I've learnt how to recognise
JAKE: my feelings, recognise my emotions, realise that it's
JAKE: okay to walk away.
JAKE: If you're having a disagreement, it's okay to walk
JAKE: away and leave that disagreement.
JAKE: You don't have to sort it out there and then.
JAKE: You're not going to lose your relationship over it.
JAKE: You just walking away because it's the
JAKE: better option. It's the better plan to keep both
JAKE: yourself, your partner and your child out of harm's
JAKE: way.
COLIN SMY: The first 1001 days
COLIN SMY: of Jake and Charlotte's baby's life
COLIN SMY: could have gone a number of different ways;
COLIN SMY: quite a few could have been negative.
COLIN SMY: You know, Jake's in prison, Charlotte's
COLIN SMY: on her own, both of them have got their own
COLIN SMY: traumas that they need to contend with on top
COLIN SMY: of being parents and the stresses of they'll
COLIN SMY: have there. And that early intervention has
COLIN SMY: reduced the safeguarding because it's brought
COLIN SMY: them together as a family.
COLIN SMY: So, baby's already growing in utero; baby's
COLIN SMY: born; and now because they're talking, they're
COLIN SMY: communicating, and the home environment is much
COLIN SMY: calmer, it's better for communication and
COLIN SMY: language, better for the parent-infant
COLIN SMY: relationship.
COLIN SMY: They've been able to come to the support
COLIN SMY: sessions and classes to understand good child
COLIN SMY: development, ensuring that they're not
COLIN SMY: overloading them sensory through their play, but
COLIN SMY: also not overloading the sensory through
COLIN SMY: arguments and conflict, and reducing all those
COLIN SMY: toxic inputs that can come in.
COLIN SMY: And the therapeutic work that've come into it
COLIN SMY: has supported
COLIN SMY: the family of Jake, Charlotte and baby to
COLIN SMY: try to identify the positives. If they could see
COLIN SMY: the positives of some things they're doing well,
COLIN SMY: allows them the headspace to think actually I
COLIN SMY: can go work on the other things now, because not
COLIN SMY: to say that it minimalises it, but it makes them
COLIN SMY: more absorbable. So when we were talking about
COLIN SMY: the fist of all the things before being
COLIN SMY: together, actually if we're able to offset
COLIN SMY: the blow and the downtroddeness of
COLIN SMY: those things that might not be going so well, it
COLIN SMY: actually allows us to have some resilience to
COLIN SMY: them and address them and process them.
COLIN SMY: Meaning that by the end of that 1001 days their
COLIN SMY: baby's brain has had the opportunity to develop
COLIN SMY: and be ready for school, had all the input they
COLIN SMY: need, got supportive relationships, understands
COLIN SMY: their own position, their own social emotional
COLIN SMY: development, so that their baby can grow up in
COLIN SMY: a different opportunity.
COLIN SMY: It's not to say we can make things better, it's
COLIN SMY: to say that we can offer a different way and
COLIN SMY: there's an alternative.
COLIN SMY: And I think that somewhat sums up the
COLIN SMY: conversation we've been having today.
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): Thanks to Colin and Ged for that
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): really informative and thought-provoking
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): discussion on early intervention
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): and supporting parents through
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): adversity. I wanted to end this
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): episode with a contribution
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): from Charlotte who describes
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): how For Baby's Sake has helped
GEORGE LINFIELD (PRODUCER): her on her parenting journey.
CHARLOTTE: I think the confidence that I've gained from
CHARLOTTE: For Baby's Sake is what has made
CHARLOTTE: me go to university and
CHARLOTTE: want to get a career and better my life for
CHARLOTTE: Isabella.
CHARLOTTE: I'm going to university to become a paramedic,
CHARLOTTE: hopefully, and I would never have done that if I
CHARLOTTE: didn't have the people around me helping
CHARLOTTE: me become more confident within myself, not just
CHARLOTTE: my parenting, but me as a person becoming more
CHARLOTTE: confident. That's just something I would never
CHARLOTTE: have done before.
CONCLUSION: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning
CONCLUSION: podcast.
CONCLUSION: At the time of recording, this episode's
CONCLUSION: content was up to date, but the world of
CONCLUSION: safeguarding and child protection is ever
CONCLUSION: changing. So if you're looking for the most
CONCLUSION: current safeguarding and child protection
CONCLUSION: training, information or resources,
CONCLUSION: please visit our website for professionals at
CONCLUSION: nspcc.org.uk/learning.