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Lucy: This is Lecker.

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I'm Lucy Dearlove.

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This month on the Lecker Club,
Ramen Forever by Tim Anderson.

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Ramen has ended up as a kind of
cornerstone of Tim Anderson's life.

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As he writes in the book Ramen Forever,
it was originally his love of ramen that

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took him to live in Japan, which steered
the course of his future in many ways.

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Including that he met his wife there.

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Avid food TV watchers in the UK
may also remember that ramen was at

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the heart of his MasterChef story
when Tim won the series in 2011.

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Ramen was his winning
main course in the final.

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He also previously ran a ramen restaurant
in Brixton which was called Nanban,

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opening in 2015 and it closed in 2021.

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But, although he's now got five cookbooks
already to his name, he's never written

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a book entirely about ramen before.

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Until now.

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Tim: There's a Mickey Mantle quote I
read recently where I think he said

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something like, it's amazing to realize
how little you know about the game

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you've been playing your whole life.

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Something like that.

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And I really felt that
writing the ramen book.

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Lucy: I found this such an interesting
conversation, not just about ramen, but

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also about the nature of cookbook writing
and power dynamics within publishing.

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Tim spoke about his work and his
approach to it with an honesty that.

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I think is really generous, and I
feel like I really got an insight in

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what it takes to write recipes for
a living in the way that he does.

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Including that feeling that you might not
have got something completely right when

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it goes off to print, or that someone
else might have been better placed to

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write something that you agreed to.

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I'm really grateful to Tim for this,
because it made what I knew would be

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an interesting conversation anyway
even more enjoyable, and I hope

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that you get a lot out of it too.

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And if nothing else, You'll be tempted
to make that leftover Nando's ramen.

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I began by asking Tim about something
that he opens ramen forever with.

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What ramen is, but also what it isn't.

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Tim: Yeah, it's kind of a big question.

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I mean, on the one hand,
the answer is very simple.

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Because ramen is like, when you boil
it down, no pun intended, it becomes

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a very simple thing, and that is...

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alkaline wheat noodles in broth.

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I used to also sort of add a, a caveat
to that, which is that it had to be a

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meat broth, just cause that's what it's
sort of always traditionally has been.

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And that's what sets it apart,
especially from other kinds of

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traditional Japanese noodle soups.

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One of the things anyway, but you
know, nowadays it's all broths and, and

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vegetarian or vegan versions as well.

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So I don't think that's part of
it, but that is sort of one of the.

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Historically defining features of it,
but it's the alkaline wheat noodles,

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the wheat noodles that have Kansui
potassium carbonate and sodium carbonate

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in them that really makes ramen ramen
and distinct from other kinds of noodles.

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And this is yeah.

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Ramen, the word as it's used in,
uh, Britain and I think English

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speaking countries, generally
people take it to mean sort of any.

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Sort of noodle soup.

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I think any kind of Asian noodle soup,
which isn't true, obviously Ramen is

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a particular kind of noodle soup from
a particular place and other kinds

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of noodle soups are other kind of
particular noodle soups So you see kind

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of absurd things in shops and on the
high street chains like Ramen Udon or

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Laksa Ramen and it's like Ramen Udon
is like saying spaghetti gnocchi or,

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you know, it just makes absolutely no
sense if you know what these words mean.

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If I have one thing that I want
people to sort of take away from

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the book, it is actually just that.

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It's that ramen is ramen and
ramen has to have alkaline salts

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in it, kansui, or it isn't ramen.

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And for me with ramen, There is
something special and unique about

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the texture that you get in the
noodles that does come from Kansui.

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So, it's not just a matter
of me being pedantic.

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It is like sort of, you know, ramen
for me and a lot of people is a special

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thing and that's what makes it special.

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That's one of the things
that makes it special.

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Now, having said that, there are
other types of noodles in Chinese

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traditions that do use Kansui
and are basically the same dish.

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But I think you also have to respect
those dishes and not call them ramen,

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even though they sort of technically fit
the definition like wonton noodle soup.

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Cause I don't know enough about
Chinese food culture to come up with

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a lot of examples, but wonton noodle
soup is one that I know uses alkaline

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wheat noodles in a meat broth.

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You could say, oh, it's ramen, but really
I think when you do that, you're also sort

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of showing your hand to somebody who's
not that familiar with that particular

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dish, and you would never sort of conflate
the two if you did know the difference.

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But, you know, also, this definition
is a little bit sort of unsatisfying

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because Ramen has other elements
beyond the noodles and the broth,

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and that's the toppings, the oils,
um, and the tare, the seasoning.

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And all these things are important
in sort of determining what is

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ramen and, and, um, complicating it.

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And all these things have to be taken
into consideration when you discuss

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sort of regional variations and, Sort
of new, modern variations, which are

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also like, have to be understood as,
as part of the definition of ramen.

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It's not just wheat noodles in broth
or alkaline wheat noodles in broth.

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It is all of the variations that you
get from that starting point as well.

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So it's simple, but it's
also complicated, basically.

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Lucy: Yeah.

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It's a big question to start with.

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Yeah.

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Sorry.

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Well, thank you for that.

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That's very interesting.

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And from what I understand, and
from what you write in the book.

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Ramen is a big part of your life, it's
a big part of your kind of personal,

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I guess, like, story around food.

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How is it important to you?

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Can you remember the
first time you ate it?

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Tim: I can't really remember the first
time I ate it because I think for, like,

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a lot of people, the first time I ate it
was, would have been in its instant form.

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Growing up, we always had
packets of Maruchan or Sapporo

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Ichiban in the cupboard.

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They were just sort of, like, part of
the fabric of Midwestern American food,

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like, Everybody I knew ate instant ramen.

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They cost maybe 10 cents a pack back
then, like they were incredibly cheap.

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They're one of the first things
you learn to cook when you

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can't cook like as a teenager.

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So that would have been my first
basic introduction to ramen.

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And also I want to say like, there
may be people thinking, oh, that's

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not really ramen, but I think it is.

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I think you can't dismiss instant ramen.

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It's like a huge part of
the ramen culture as well.

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And a huge part of what sort of
made it popular around the world.

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Like Introducing people to the dish in
that format and getting them on board

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with the whole concept of, like, long
noodles in broth, like, that's important.

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So that would have been the first
time when I grew up eating those.

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Uh, and then when I went to college,
uh, I went to college in Los Angeles

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and that was partly because I was
already interested in Japanese

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food and I knew that there was
a lot more to learn about there.

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Because of the Japanese diaspora
population, and it's just much

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more established and diverse.

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So, I started eating ramen in shops
like in Little Tokyo in LA, um, and on

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Sawtelle Boulevard, um, stuff like that.

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And it didn't really, like, hit me.

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Like, I had a lot of sort of what
I would now, I guess, I might sort

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of realize were just sort of...

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This sounds mean, but they were
just sort of like nothing special

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kinds of bowls, so they didn't
really have much of an impact on me.

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But then...

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There was a night where I was out in
Little Tokyo with a group of friends

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and there were sort of too many of
us We hadn't booked anywhere to eat.

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We couldn't get anywhere and there was
this restaurant that we finally stumbled

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across called Daikoku Yacht Which
is still there and very popular now.

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We would never have been able to
get in there now But they took us

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all in there were like seven of us.

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It was ridiculous.

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We sat at the counter and And it was
my first bowl of tonkotsu ramen, and

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I'd never had anything like it before.

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It was, you know, most of the ramen
I'd had had like a kind of a thinner

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broth, a shio or a shoyu kind
of old school Tokyo style broth.

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And this one was rich and porky and fatty.

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And it was just mesmerizing because it
was about the broth, but it was also about

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the noodles I think it was probably the
first time I recognized that the noodles

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themselves Were something special and
then it had all this contrast as you

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eat it because you get the pork belly
the chashu that sort of flakes apart

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falls apart and and slurp that up and
then you get a bit of pickled ginger

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some spring onions a bit of crunchy
bean sprout and it's just this sort

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of like really involving bowl of food.

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Um, and that was sort of my ramen moment.

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That was, that was really
what kicked it off.

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And it really did kick it off.

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Like, I, I went to Daikokuya probably
on average every other week for, it

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would have been two or three years.

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Until the time I left L.

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A.

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We were regulars there.

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Me and my friends, or my girlfriend.

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And, um, they only
really served one thing.

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So that's how, that's how good it was.

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It just kept me coming back just
for that one particular thing.

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But, you know, during this
time I also went to, I applied

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for a research grant in 2005.

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Or, uh, 2004, something like
that to go and study noodles.

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Cause I was already studying
Japanese history and culture.

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I majored in Japanese studies.

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And, um, I, I put this pitch together,
sort of studying the history of the

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different kinds of noodle cultures
in Japan, soba, udon, ramen, and the

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differences between them and, and why
they were established where they were.

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But anyway, I wound up focusing
most of my research on the

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Shin Yokohama Ramen Museum.

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And that trip was also like just
this massive education in terms of.

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how significant, how big the dish is,
both in terms of sort of its, its cultural

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impact and how, how much of a sort of, uh,
nostalgic food it is for people in Japan,

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but also how really, really regional and
diverse it is and how you could live a

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whole lifetime eating ramen every day and
not ever reach the end of it, basically.

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Lucy: What I'm really curious
about is that it's obviously

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such an important dish to you.

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Well, you know, like I guess dish
is maybe diminishing it slightly.

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Um, But this is your,
this is your sixth book.

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Yeah, right?

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Why did it take you so long
to write a book about ramen?

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Tim: The publishers are
running out of ideas.

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Not really.

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Lucy: Like finally you can do it
Tim, you can do the ramen book.

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Tim: The funny thing is,
um, that's a great question.

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So my very first book, Nanban, is about
the food of Kyushu and a little bit of

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Okinawa with some of my own sort of takes
on that type of food and what I had been

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serving at pop ups in London at the time.

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And there's a big chapter on
ramen, but it's really quite basic.

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Like, uh, at the time I thought,
oh, I'm publishing these recipes

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that are, you know, they're going
to be great because it's going

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to showcase a little bit about...

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The diversity of at least within Kyushu
and the different styles there, Champon

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and Kumamoto Ramen and things like these,
um, which is still some of my favorites.

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But really like, the, the, the
recipes are too basic in that book.

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They, they weren't that well researched.

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There's not a lot of information on
the, almost no variation actually,

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information on the variation in
terms of tare and noodles in them.

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Um, it's a bit too simplistic.

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It's a bit too, uh, too
much of an overview I guess.

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So.

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It's not like I was sort of itching
to do another ramen book for a long

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time, but this, this was a good
opportunity to really dive deeper.

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There's less of the regional variations,
but more in terms of a sort of

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nuts and bolts understanding of how
those variations are made basically,

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uh, in each element within them.

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But getting into the sort of, you know,
why now side of it to answer that question

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is doing these books is, has always been.

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Collaboration I guess you could say
between me and the publisher and you

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know They have mostly to be honest
been ideas that have come from my

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publisher and they said we want to
do this Can you do it and I've said?

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Okay, or no But with ramen it felt like
something I could do But it was daunting

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still it was Because it is such a huge
topic and it's one of these things where

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it's like there's a Mickey Mantle quote
I read recently where I think he said

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something like It's amazing to realize
how little you know about the game

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you've been playing your whole life.

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Something like that.

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00:13:02,744 --> 00:13:07,924
And, and I really felt that
writing the ramen book.

222
00:13:07,944 --> 00:13:10,545
On the one hand, as I was testing
recipes, I was like, oh good,

223
00:13:10,555 --> 00:13:11,815
these recipes are working.

224
00:13:11,894 --> 00:13:13,814
And it's like, well,
yeah, of course they are.

225
00:13:13,814 --> 00:13:15,505
I've been making ramen for a long time.

226
00:13:16,145 --> 00:13:18,805
But on the other hand, I was
like, man, but I can't, you know,

227
00:13:18,805 --> 00:13:20,545
there's still so much I don't know.

228
00:13:20,545 --> 00:13:23,284
And there's so much that
I, I can't fit in the book.

229
00:13:23,284 --> 00:13:29,305
And it's like, I don't know, I've
done my best to, um, say what I think

230
00:13:29,305 --> 00:13:34,475
I guess is important about ramen,
but try to encourage people to do

231
00:13:34,475 --> 00:13:37,935
their own extended research, I guess.

232
00:13:38,124 --> 00:13:40,334
Which people do anyway, they
don't need me to tell them that.

233
00:13:40,854 --> 00:13:41,384
Lucy: Yeah, very true.

234
00:13:41,405 --> 00:13:43,374
I feel like it's something that
people have very strong opinions

235
00:13:43,374 --> 00:13:47,104
about, so that must have been
quite a daunting task in some ways.

236
00:13:47,415 --> 00:13:48,405
Tim: It is, it is scary.

237
00:13:48,405 --> 00:13:51,035
There is a very big sort
of ramen nerd community.

238
00:13:51,949 --> 00:13:57,470
Um out there on the on the internet I use
the word nerd mostly affectionately With

239
00:13:58,650 --> 00:14:05,990
some caveats, yeah, because I am one of
them anyway but yeah so far the response

240
00:14:05,990 --> 00:14:10,505
from that community from you know people
I I Follow and chat to on Instagram and

241
00:14:10,505 --> 00:14:15,385
stuff has been really positive But I'm not
gonna go hunting around reddit or whatever

242
00:14:15,385 --> 00:14:19,424
for comments about Where my book has
fallen short or got it wrong or whatever

243
00:14:19,424 --> 00:14:23,455
like, you know things like that because
yeah I don't know what it is about ramen,

244
00:14:23,485 --> 00:14:28,535
but it seems to really Get a lot of people
very passionate and that's the thing.

245
00:14:28,535 --> 00:14:32,085
I didn't I didn't want to let them
down I guess more than anything

246
00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:33,440
Lucy: Yeah, that's, that's funny.

247
00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,260
Actually, I was going to ask you
what you think it is about ramen in

248
00:14:36,260 --> 00:14:41,650
particular that does inspire this kind
of cult like devotion, but I guess

249
00:14:41,650 --> 00:14:43,010
it's one of life's great mysteries.

250
00:14:43,390 --> 00:14:45,030
Tim: I think about this
all the time, to be honest.

251
00:14:45,089 --> 00:14:49,959
And so I think for one thing, there is
an undeniable sort of impact of this

252
00:14:49,959 --> 00:14:56,030
dish, even at its sort of most soothing
and subtle, it's still like a large

253
00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:01,400
portion of salty food with a filling
amount of noodles in it and broth.

254
00:15:02,314 --> 00:15:06,564
And it's got, you know, bags of umami
and all this contrast, like, like you'd

255
00:15:06,564 --> 00:15:12,914
get from so many different kinds of foods
that also inspire a similar kind of nerdy

256
00:15:12,914 --> 00:15:17,974
devotion, like burgers or pizza, you
know, these are similar foods that you

257
00:15:17,975 --> 00:15:20,074
can really fiddle with and tinker with.

258
00:15:20,914 --> 00:15:24,224
But I also think that there is
something, you know, I don't

259
00:15:24,224 --> 00:15:26,074
want to get too, I don't know.

260
00:15:27,199 --> 00:15:32,640
Ethnographic or something, but there is
a certain kind of person who is attracted

261
00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:37,579
to ramen into making it That and I I
put myself in this category that I think

262
00:15:37,579 --> 00:15:45,589
is a kind of a control freak kind of
personality um People who really like to

263
00:15:45,589 --> 00:15:53,269
sort of like dial in specificities of a
recipe and a process because Ramen isn't

264
00:15:53,290 --> 00:15:57,640
something that's technically hard to make
you don't need like Good knife skills.

265
00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:01,980
You know, I look at people who make
sushi and I watch their hands and I'm

266
00:16:01,980 --> 00:16:04,320
just like it's like a magic trick to me.

267
00:16:04,700 --> 00:16:05,640
It's so amazing.

268
00:16:06,180 --> 00:16:08,210
Ramen is boiling stuff.

269
00:16:08,230 --> 00:16:14,920
It's really like if you have a
head for sort of math and processes

270
00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,530
um Good ramen is achievable.

271
00:16:18,610 --> 00:16:21,689
Um, it is much less about,
I think, technique than it

272
00:16:21,689 --> 00:16:23,339
is about numbers, in a way.

273
00:16:23,569 --> 00:16:25,679
And I think that attracts
a certain kind of person.

274
00:16:26,319 --> 00:16:28,660
And I am, I am sort of in that camp.

275
00:16:28,829 --> 00:16:33,989
I, I, I am a kind of numbers guy, but I am
also a pinch of this, a pinch of that guy.

276
00:16:33,999 --> 00:16:35,709
And there's room for
that in ramen as well.

277
00:16:35,719 --> 00:16:39,020
Like, from bowl to bowl, you're
always tasting, always tweaking.

278
00:16:39,020 --> 00:16:41,240
So, it's not all about the numbers, but...

279
00:16:41,860 --> 00:16:47,930
I think if you are somebody who likes
to, I don't know, get into percentages

280
00:16:47,939 --> 00:16:51,360
in terms of hydration or temperatures
and timings and stuff like that,

281
00:16:51,370 --> 00:16:53,810
it can be a satisfying project.

282
00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:54,570
Lucy: Yeah, for sure.

283
00:16:54,580 --> 00:16:55,389
I mean, I think it is.

284
00:16:55,389 --> 00:16:58,210
I mean, I obviously know a lot less
about ramen than you do, but to me, it

285
00:16:58,220 --> 00:17:01,220
strikes me as it is a numbers thing,
but it's also a taste thing, right?

286
00:17:01,250 --> 00:17:04,839
And I think that's, it's about
tasting a bowl of something

287
00:17:04,839 --> 00:17:06,079
and knowing what it needs.

288
00:17:06,150 --> 00:17:07,969
And I think that, that arguably is a...

289
00:17:09,619 --> 00:17:10,720
Tim: Yeah, that's a good point.

290
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,329
I mean, there is always, you know, when
I'm testing recipes and I think when

291
00:17:14,329 --> 00:17:22,079
anybody is, you'll take a slurp and
another one and think it needs something.

292
00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:26,839
And then it is about what, figuring out
what that thing or those things are.

293
00:17:27,429 --> 00:17:32,360
This is really important because I think
a lot of people make ramen at home and

294
00:17:32,550 --> 00:17:34,340
they think, Oh, it's not very good.

295
00:17:34,340 --> 00:17:35,940
And I think that anybody who makes.

296
00:17:36,780 --> 00:17:40,520
Ramen when they're first starting out
including me have had this experience and

297
00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,980
that's when these sort of five elements
really come in you know that the noodles

298
00:17:43,980 --> 00:17:47,979
have brought the today the oil and the
toppings and if any one of those things

299
00:17:47,979 --> 00:17:52,509
is sort of out of whack if it's Not right,
or if it's too much or too little the

300
00:17:52,509 --> 00:17:57,920
whole bowl sort of feels unsatisfying
so like Writing this book has actually

301
00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:03,125
sort of driven that home to me because
when I first started out In particular,

302
00:18:03,245 --> 00:18:08,275
I thought, oh, it's all about the broth,
and I think that's because of my my ramen

303
00:18:08,285 --> 00:18:10,615
moment going way back to 2005 or whatever.

304
00:18:10,895 --> 00:18:14,055
When I first had that spoonful
of broth, I thought, oh my god,

305
00:18:14,445 --> 00:18:15,365
this is what it's all about.

306
00:18:15,365 --> 00:18:18,464
So I spent a long time trying to
nail the broth and kind of neglected

307
00:18:18,464 --> 00:18:19,775
the other elements in the bowl.

308
00:18:20,534 --> 00:18:22,575
And it took me a long time to
figure out, like, okay, no,

309
00:18:22,575 --> 00:18:23,735
you need to work on the tare.

310
00:18:23,735 --> 00:18:25,135
You need to make sure the noodles match.

311
00:18:25,135 --> 00:18:25,775
You need to...

312
00:18:26,170 --> 00:18:30,150
You know, really figure out those
toppings and what works and what doesn't

313
00:18:30,150 --> 00:18:31,590
and the oils and everything like that.

314
00:18:31,590 --> 00:18:35,230
So it comes with experience, I guess
you, you know, the more, you know,

315
00:18:35,230 --> 00:18:38,649
the better you get and the better
you can troubleshoot, I suppose.

316
00:18:39,155 --> 00:18:42,215
Lucy: It makes sense with these five
elements that you're talking about in

317
00:18:42,215 --> 00:18:45,264
regards to the way that you've structured
the book, but in some ways it's quite

318
00:18:45,274 --> 00:18:49,695
an unusual structure for a recipe book
because most of the actual, what we

319
00:18:49,695 --> 00:18:52,844
would consider to be recipes, where
it's amounts of things that are going

320
00:18:52,844 --> 00:18:57,444
together to make something, they're for
elements of the dishes rather than the

321
00:18:57,444 --> 00:19:01,845
dishes themselves, which I guess is the
nature of ramen, but um, yeah, as I was

322
00:19:01,845 --> 00:19:06,614
kind of reading through it, it did strike
me as Um, yeah, kind of intriguing in

323
00:19:06,614 --> 00:19:09,885
a way was did you know that's how you
wanted to structure it the whole time?

324
00:19:10,064 --> 00:19:16,364
Tim: I did and now I have I have a little
bit of regret in terms of not putting

325
00:19:16,554 --> 00:19:19,495
more Recipes in there that you I can say.

326
00:19:19,495 --> 00:19:19,764
Okay.

327
00:19:19,764 --> 00:19:25,164
Here's a ramen that you can do
start to finish in X amount of

328
00:19:25,164 --> 00:19:27,064
time, you know, boom boom boom.

329
00:19:27,064 --> 00:19:27,924
You can do it in an hour.

330
00:19:27,924 --> 00:19:32,754
You can do it in a day That's a purely
commercial thought because I know that

331
00:19:33,464 --> 00:19:37,845
you know from experience And just from
seeing what's out there, people want

332
00:19:38,055 --> 00:19:39,975
recipes that they can cook regularly.

333
00:19:40,825 --> 00:19:44,035
It's not that you can't cook ramen
regularly, but it is a bit of a project.

334
00:19:44,704 --> 00:19:48,585
You need a sort of solid two days
to put together a bowl from scratch.

335
00:19:49,284 --> 00:19:53,244
And, you know, I did a talk at a
bookshop in Bath where somebody was

336
00:19:53,244 --> 00:19:56,715
like, Well, what can I, what recipe do
you recommend from the book where, you

337
00:19:56,715 --> 00:19:58,765
know, that I can make, like, every day?

338
00:19:58,775 --> 00:20:02,879
And I was like, uh, Ha ha ha.

339
00:20:03,180 --> 00:20:07,290
I was like, you can't, well, what
I've been telling people now is, um,

340
00:20:07,360 --> 00:20:10,110
all of the elements have different
uses outside of a bowl of ramen, like

341
00:20:10,110 --> 00:20:11,730
the chashu recipes in particular.

342
00:20:11,740 --> 00:20:14,700
You could have those on a bowl of rice
with some greens and it'd be a great meal.

343
00:20:15,375 --> 00:20:19,745
The oils are great for roasting
vegetables, or dressing salads,

344
00:20:19,745 --> 00:20:23,085
or all kinds of different things,
making mayonnaises and dressings.

345
00:20:23,715 --> 00:20:26,724
Uh, and then there are ones that are
sort of more stand alone, like there's

346
00:20:26,724 --> 00:20:30,285
a whole chicken ramen recipe where you
sort of, you poach the chicken and that

347
00:20:30,285 --> 00:20:33,185
becomes your broth and your toppings
and you just add noodles basically.

348
00:20:33,725 --> 00:20:37,305
Or my favorite, or one of my favorites,
which is the Leftover Nando's one, uh,

349
00:20:37,595 --> 00:20:42,414
Leftover Nando's Ramen, which sounds
stupid, and it is, but it was surprisingly

350
00:20:42,415 --> 00:20:46,455
good, otherwise I wouldn't have put it
in the book, so like, And then that kind

351
00:20:46,455 --> 00:20:51,240
of thing is there to show people, like,
You know, anything can be ramen, and

352
00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:55,540
you can, once you know the basics, once
you have good noodles, and understand

353
00:20:55,550 --> 00:20:59,960
seasoning in particular, anything can
become ramen, and it doesn't necessarily

354
00:20:59,960 --> 00:21:04,129
have to be a big project, and in fact,
the book's being translated into German,

355
00:21:05,010 --> 00:21:09,499
and um, they don't have Nando's in
Germany, so they were like, what do we

356
00:21:09,500 --> 00:21:13,240
do, and I said, what we settled on was
just like, well, basically we can just

357
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:18,505
tell people, Order any chicken from
your favorite chicken shop, follow this

358
00:21:18,515 --> 00:21:22,725
process, season it up how you like it, and
you'll have a pretty good bowl of ramen.

359
00:21:22,735 --> 00:21:24,335
That's the truth, I think, so.

360
00:21:24,725 --> 00:21:26,275
Yeah, I mean, if I, I don't know.

361
00:21:26,295 --> 00:21:29,154
Like I said, like, I, I, I
want people to cook from it.

362
00:21:29,654 --> 00:21:33,524
And I, I, I always want it
to not be too, too nerdy.

363
00:21:33,544 --> 00:21:36,305
But unfortunately, that's sort
of the nature of the dish.

364
00:21:36,825 --> 00:21:41,315
And I've been describing the book as
a, as a one for serious beginners,

365
00:21:41,315 --> 00:21:47,725
like I don't think it's, it's not
incredibly nerdy or detailed, not as

366
00:21:47,725 --> 00:21:51,484
much as it could be anyway, but having
said that, like, you have to be the

367
00:21:51,485 --> 00:21:53,335
kind of person who really wants to...

368
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,020
Set the time aside to make a proper ball.

369
00:21:56,150 --> 00:21:56,760
Lucy: Yeah, for sure.

370
00:21:56,780 --> 00:22:00,600
I'd also just like to give kudos to
the Nando's recipe for shouting out

371
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,710
one of the underrated Nando's menu
items, which is the chicken livers!

372
00:22:03,710 --> 00:22:05,330
I love the Nando's chicken livers!

373
00:22:07,370 --> 00:22:10,689
Yeah, well what I loved about the
recipes that you've included for,

374
00:22:10,690 --> 00:22:14,390
yeah, the Nando's leftovers that
you've, um, that you've mentioned and

375
00:22:14,390 --> 00:22:19,490
also the Full English ramen and the,
uh, Wisconsin beer and cheese ramen.

376
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:21,360
Um, they're just really fun.

377
00:22:21,500 --> 00:22:25,209
Like they're just like, it
feels very like funny to me.

378
00:22:25,250 --> 00:22:28,240
Um, and I found it quite surprising in
a book that, you know, as you're saying,

379
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:33,110
this isn't a book for serious nerds, but
it is a book that takes ramen seriously.

380
00:22:33,150 --> 00:22:36,700
And I really liked that, that there was
space for that element of humor like that.

381
00:22:36,730 --> 00:22:37,810
I kind of really appreciated that.

382
00:22:38,120 --> 00:22:39,380
And they seem like really great recipes.

383
00:22:39,380 --> 00:22:40,230
I'm excited to try them.

384
00:22:40,830 --> 00:22:41,080
Tim: Thanks.

385
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,390
I mean, this is sort of
a sticking point as well.

386
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:43,870
It's because.

387
00:22:44,090 --> 00:22:49,689
There's a, there is this urge with any
kind of food, and I think, you know, ramen

388
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:56,290
as well, which is to sort of be protective
of some kind of idea of authenticity.

389
00:22:57,120 --> 00:23:00,759
Which is a really tricky one with ramen,
because I do respect that, and I, you

390
00:23:00,759 --> 00:23:08,950
know, I will certainly like be unsatisfied
if some kind of ramen doesn't, certainly

391
00:23:08,950 --> 00:23:10,280
if it doesn't follow the rules, i.

392
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:10,460
e.

393
00:23:10,470 --> 00:23:13,639
like it's made incorrectly, it doesn't
have the right noodles, things like that.

394
00:23:14,030 --> 00:23:17,650
Or if, if people describe it as
one certain kind of style and

395
00:23:17,660 --> 00:23:19,090
it doesn't represent that style.

396
00:23:20,020 --> 00:23:25,289
But, all throughout ramen history,
and especially now, in Japan, there

397
00:23:25,389 --> 00:23:30,959
are variations that are based on
just one individual chef's sort

398
00:23:30,959 --> 00:23:32,669
of idiosyncrasies and creativity.

399
00:23:32,670 --> 00:23:34,610
I mean, there's a pizza ramen in the book.

400
00:23:35,485 --> 00:23:37,485
And I, I, I know people would
probably look at that and they

401
00:23:37,485 --> 00:23:40,885
think, ah, that's not, you know,
that you're just being silly.

402
00:23:40,955 --> 00:23:42,284
That's, that's not legit.

403
00:23:42,485 --> 00:23:44,074
And, you know, we had this
at the restaurant too.

404
00:23:44,074 --> 00:23:47,274
We did a curry goat ramen and
there's a French onion ramen

405
00:23:47,274 --> 00:23:48,324
in one of my other books.

406
00:23:49,074 --> 00:23:51,984
And I was just curious because
when I make these things, I, I, I,

407
00:23:52,254 --> 00:23:55,314
they're done sort of in the spirit
of this sort of creativity that you

408
00:23:55,314 --> 00:23:58,125
get in the ramen world in Japan.

409
00:23:58,814 --> 00:24:00,935
Um, and that is one of the
things that makes it special.

410
00:24:01,635 --> 00:24:04,905
So I just googled it, and it turns out
there is a French onion ramen being served

411
00:24:04,905 --> 00:24:08,715
in Japan, and it's even got a pastry lid.

412
00:24:10,955 --> 00:24:11,665
Incredible.

413
00:24:11,674 --> 00:24:16,784
Yeah, this kind of like silliness,
I think it's important, like it's a

414
00:24:16,784 --> 00:24:22,914
serious business ramen, but it also
allows for a lot of fun and creativity.

415
00:24:22,914 --> 00:24:26,704
I think that's part of, I think part of
the reason behind that is because it's

416
00:24:26,714 --> 00:24:32,565
always had this, This status of being
not quite Japanese, you know, for decades

417
00:24:32,565 --> 00:24:36,395
and decades after it was introduced to
Japan, it was referred to as Chinese

418
00:24:36,395 --> 00:24:38,535
food, as chuka soba or Chinese soba.

419
00:24:39,334 --> 00:24:43,104
And it still sort of holds on to
that in some, some cases, especially

420
00:24:43,105 --> 00:24:44,434
among like older generations.

421
00:24:44,435 --> 00:24:48,205
And I think that that, um, has
allowed people in Japan to sort

422
00:24:48,355 --> 00:24:51,585
of blow it up a bit and say,
well, you know, this is not...

423
00:24:51,975 --> 00:24:54,995
our food, we're not following
strict traditions here, so we

424
00:24:54,995 --> 00:24:56,085
can have a bit of fun with it.

425
00:24:56,315 --> 00:24:58,055
As long as the rules are followed, anyway.

426
00:24:59,015 --> 00:25:00,215
Lucy: Yeah, fun within the rules.

427
00:25:00,215 --> 00:25:01,115
The best kind of fun.

428
00:25:02,805 --> 00:25:07,404
I wanted to talk to you about, uh,
Nanban, actually, because I know it's

429
00:25:07,404 --> 00:25:11,114
no longer running, but, um, I don't
know, it feels like I can't talk to

430
00:25:11,235 --> 00:25:14,085
you about your ramen book without
asking you about your ramen restaurant.

431
00:25:14,215 --> 00:25:17,645
What did you learn about
cooking ramen in that setting?

432
00:25:18,445 --> 00:25:19,134
Tim: Oh, God.

433
00:25:20,744 --> 00:25:21,314
Um.

434
00:25:23,315 --> 00:25:23,825
What did I learn?

435
00:25:23,825 --> 00:25:31,105
Okay, so If I could sort of reframe the
question a little bit people are often

436
00:25:31,115 --> 00:25:39,254
asking me are you ever gonna reopen
or open another one and The answer is

437
00:25:39,284 --> 00:25:45,195
basically no um, it's just One thing
I've learned is about myself, which is

438
00:25:45,205 --> 00:25:50,615
that i'm not really I'm not really cut
out to work in a restaurant in the sense

439
00:25:50,615 --> 00:25:54,085
that running a restaurant or working in
a restaurant is often about firefighting

440
00:25:54,135 --> 00:25:56,565
and solving problems as they come up.

441
00:25:56,885 --> 00:25:59,335
You never have a day at a
restaurant, or almost never, where

442
00:25:59,335 --> 00:26:00,675
everything just goes smoothly.

443
00:26:01,235 --> 00:26:05,745
You're always dealing with broken
equipment or staff not turning

444
00:26:05,745 --> 00:26:10,155
up or, or some little minor
disaster one right after the other.

445
00:26:11,065 --> 00:26:14,194
I think that people who work in
restaurants, they kind of thrive uh,

446
00:26:14,515 --> 00:26:18,940
in those kinds of I, I like things
to be much more under control.

447
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:26,420
So if I were to ever open another one,
I would try to maintain that control

448
00:26:26,810 --> 00:26:31,829
by having it be a much smaller venue,
like what you typically find in Japan

449
00:26:32,889 --> 00:26:40,120
and, and having fewer staff so that I
can sort of spend more time with each

450
00:26:40,120 --> 00:26:43,240
one of them, more sort of one on one
time talking to them through the whole.

451
00:26:44,115 --> 00:26:47,445
Process and getting them to understand
the dish from the ground up because

452
00:26:47,625 --> 00:26:50,115
the problem with having a bigger team
is that you've, you've sort of got

453
00:26:50,115 --> 00:26:53,945
one guy off in the corner, chopping
onions and you've got one person

454
00:26:54,025 --> 00:26:57,555
on the other side of the kitchen,
making the garlic oil or whatever.

455
00:26:58,045 --> 00:27:00,264
And it's hard for them to
see it all come together.

456
00:27:00,264 --> 00:27:02,705
Basically, like we tried to move
people around the kitchen as much

457
00:27:02,705 --> 00:27:06,805
as we could at Namban, but you
still end up sort of in this.

458
00:27:07,230 --> 00:27:10,840
Sort of old school brigade system almost
where one person's doing one thing on one

459
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:12,250
section and one person's doing another.

460
00:27:12,710 --> 00:27:16,209
So that's, that's hard and that's,
that's really not how ramen

461
00:27:16,209 --> 00:27:17,450
shops operate in Japan generally.

462
00:27:17,459 --> 00:27:20,299
You have everybody doing
everything in the line.

463
00:27:20,830 --> 00:27:25,239
So you can really, like there's no
head chef in a ramen shop in Japan.

464
00:27:25,239 --> 00:27:29,830
It's just a few people putting a bowl
together basically and then being

465
00:27:29,830 --> 00:27:31,280
involved with every part of that bowl.

466
00:27:31,610 --> 00:27:35,769
So keeping it small, keeping it under
control, keeping the menu small as well

467
00:27:35,770 --> 00:27:40,485
so that you have more Focus, I guess,
on really getting every element right.

468
00:27:41,335 --> 00:27:43,395
This is what I would do
if I were to do it again.

469
00:27:44,125 --> 00:27:46,534
And then, sort of, some lifestyle choices.

470
00:27:47,475 --> 00:27:48,405
That would be different.

471
00:27:48,705 --> 00:27:51,294
For one thing, I would love, and I
don't know if this is possible with

472
00:27:51,294 --> 00:27:55,205
London Rent, but I would love to be
able to like, sell the broth until it

473
00:27:55,205 --> 00:27:57,654
runs out, and then close up at 3pm.

474
00:27:57,774 --> 00:28:01,654
You know, like, So I can have a
life as well, and pick up my kids

475
00:28:01,654 --> 00:28:02,735
from school and stuff like that.

476
00:28:03,660 --> 00:28:05,710
Charge a lot for the ramen.

477
00:28:05,780 --> 00:28:09,980
I would love to be able to charge 20
pounds, 25 pounds for a bowl of ramen so

478
00:28:09,980 --> 00:28:13,850
that then you can pay the staff more so
that you can buy the better ingredients.

479
00:28:13,850 --> 00:28:20,019
You know, there's this real expectation
in the UK and in Japan and in Japan, it's

480
00:28:20,019 --> 00:28:23,890
much more fair, I think, but like people
want ramen to be cheap, but I think that

481
00:28:23,890 --> 00:28:25,570
that's part of the appeal of the dish.

482
00:28:26,540 --> 00:28:26,850
But.

483
00:28:27,360 --> 00:28:31,030
It's expensive, making ramen is like,
it's an expensive process, like, the

484
00:28:31,030 --> 00:28:35,400
noodles that we get are, you know, 75p
a portion sometimes, the broth itself

485
00:28:35,410 --> 00:28:37,889
can cost a pound with the amount of
bones that go into it, you've got the

486
00:28:37,889 --> 00:28:40,810
toppings and everything, and then of
course the staff at the rent, and it's,

487
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,779
it's, it's not cheap, and nowadays, sort
of the going rate for ramen in London is

488
00:28:44,789 --> 00:28:49,600
probably around 15 pounds, which I think
is fair, absolutely fair, but I think

489
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:51,370
it actually probably should be more.

490
00:28:52,100 --> 00:28:55,970
Just to make a more sustainable
business, basically.

491
00:28:56,020 --> 00:28:56,840
So, yeah.

492
00:28:56,870 --> 00:29:00,240
Sorry, I don't know if that
answers your question, but, um...

493
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,119
Lucy: No, I think it does
answer your question.

494
00:29:02,119 --> 00:29:04,879
I think I actually, I actually
misphrased the question slightly,

495
00:29:04,879 --> 00:29:07,579
which was, what have you learned
from cooking ramen in that setting,

496
00:29:07,579 --> 00:29:09,719
not what have you learned about it,
which I think is slightly different.

497
00:29:09,719 --> 00:29:12,220
So I think you did actually answer
the question that I meant to ask.

498
00:29:12,710 --> 00:29:13,060
Right.

499
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:14,830
So that's great.

500
00:29:14,830 --> 00:29:15,620
We both got there.

501
00:29:15,660 --> 00:29:19,370
Um, but yeah, that's really in, that's
so interesting because I think something

502
00:29:19,370 --> 00:29:22,629
that really, yeah, something that really
came to me when I was reading the book

503
00:29:22,629 --> 00:29:27,409
was that, um, it seems unbelievable
that a bowl of ramen could cost as

504
00:29:27,499 --> 00:29:30,590
like less than 20 pounds when you
consider the work that goes into it.

505
00:29:30,629 --> 00:29:34,300
So yeah, I can, I completely understand
where you're coming from there.

506
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,590
Um, and also I, I feel like.

507
00:29:36,950 --> 00:29:40,310
Ramen shops aren't really a
thing that we have here, right?

508
00:29:40,310 --> 00:29:43,800
It's, they're kind of an outlier,
like, I think, I mean, I'm, I

509
00:29:43,820 --> 00:29:44,740
don't know if there's any...

510
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:50,040
kind of exceptions to that rule that you,
you know, and you want to tell us about.

511
00:29:50,050 --> 00:29:55,070
But yeah, it's not really a concept
that a lot of people are familiar with.

512
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:55,639
Tim: You're right.

513
00:29:55,639 --> 00:29:56,990
We have ramen restaurants.

514
00:29:56,990 --> 00:30:01,809
You know, these places can be quite
dedicated and specialized to some

515
00:30:01,809 --> 00:30:05,519
degree, but they all, including
us, they all serve other dishes,

516
00:30:05,529 --> 00:30:06,989
small plates, stuff like that.

517
00:30:07,739 --> 00:30:10,140
Which of course, isn't like
unheard of in Japan either.

518
00:30:10,140 --> 00:30:13,799
You get, you know, all kinds of
standard side dishes like rice or.

519
00:30:14,235 --> 00:30:18,355
Karaage, stuff like that, gyoza, um,
and you even have like ramen izakaya in

520
00:30:18,355 --> 00:30:20,025
Japan that have fuller menus as well.

521
00:30:20,805 --> 00:30:24,145
But I think there's less of an
emphasis generally in the UK on,

522
00:30:25,014 --> 00:30:30,095
on specializing, uh, and that's,
that's in any genre of cooking.

523
00:30:30,254 --> 00:30:34,775
You know, we, we don't really
have dedicated yakitori places.

524
00:30:35,005 --> 00:30:37,995
We have very few sort of
dedicated okonomiyaki places.

525
00:30:38,045 --> 00:30:40,005
Even sushi, I mean, people now...

526
00:30:40,355 --> 00:30:43,835
I think have more respect for sushi
and the whole omakase experience, where

527
00:30:44,335 --> 00:30:49,465
you get sushi and you get it in a way
that is, the chef basically dictates.

528
00:30:49,575 --> 00:30:55,045
But, yeah, beyond that, people, I
mean, we, it's funny, we, we had

529
00:30:55,075 --> 00:30:58,255
people walk out of the restaurant
because we didn't serve sushi.

530
00:30:58,415 --> 00:31:00,744
Or because we didn't serve prawn tempura.

531
00:31:00,745 --> 00:31:03,715
Like these sort of dishes that
people expect from Japanese food,

532
00:31:04,035 --> 00:31:06,685
and they think, oh, you're a Japanese
restaurant, you must serve it.

533
00:31:07,310 --> 00:31:10,260
Which, I don't know where that
comes from, um, it's, it's

534
00:31:10,260 --> 00:31:11,830
very, very different from Japan.

535
00:31:12,140 --> 00:31:17,430
And even to some extent from America,
where, you know, you go to a restaurant

536
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,739
for that one thing that they do.

537
00:31:20,550 --> 00:31:24,069
I think part of it is that
people go out here more, more to

538
00:31:24,069 --> 00:31:28,830
socialize than anything, rather
than to sit down and eat the food.

539
00:31:28,830 --> 00:31:31,050
But I don't know, that's
oversimplifying it, because obviously...

540
00:31:31,575 --> 00:31:32,665
Well, ramen is different.

541
00:31:32,745 --> 00:31:34,485
Ramen is not a social food in Japan.

542
00:31:34,835 --> 00:31:36,755
You order your food, you usually go alone.

543
00:31:37,115 --> 00:31:38,805
If you go with a friend,
you don't talk to them.

544
00:31:40,065 --> 00:31:41,854
You sit down, you slurp, and you leave.

545
00:31:42,154 --> 00:31:45,055
Lucy: No, I think, I really think you're
onto something here, because I think when

546
00:31:45,055 --> 00:31:48,974
you, um, it made me think about this,
actually, when you, when you introduced

547
00:31:48,974 --> 00:31:53,610
the full English ramen, and you kind
of justify writing this recipe because

548
00:31:53,700 --> 00:31:56,840
you make a comparison between the idea
of going to a cafe and having a full

549
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,550
English and having ramen in a ramen shop.

550
00:31:59,570 --> 00:32:02,490
And I think, I think there's actually like
a real, there is a real parallel there.

551
00:32:02,500 --> 00:32:04,660
Like you talk about it being
quite a working class food,

552
00:32:05,010 --> 00:32:06,340
which I think is really accurate.

553
00:32:06,350 --> 00:32:09,859
And also like, I think people would
often, I guess there is some element

554
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,340
of socializing in a cafe and it is a.

555
00:32:12,580 --> 00:32:15,800
You know, third space or whatever you
want to call it, but there is also like

556
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,920
an element that you're going there to
fuel up and like, you might enjoy how it

557
00:32:18,930 --> 00:32:23,020
tastes, but it feels quite like, um, I
don't know what the word is, but you're

558
00:32:23,020 --> 00:32:26,999
not going there for kind of like a, an
elevated, I hate that word, but like

559
00:32:26,999 --> 00:32:28,749
a kind of rarefied dining experience.

560
00:32:28,780 --> 00:32:32,310
It's very like you're there to like fuel.

561
00:32:32,870 --> 00:32:33,980
So I guess it is comparable.

562
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:36,474
Tim: Get the protein and get
the fat and get the carbs in.

563
00:32:36,845 --> 00:32:37,445
And get out.

564
00:32:37,635 --> 00:32:38,185
And get out.

565
00:32:38,185 --> 00:32:42,655
I mean, a cab is probably a
friendlier place to linger

566
00:32:42,655 --> 00:32:43,935
than most ramen shops, but.

567
00:32:44,405 --> 00:32:48,404
And that's an important point, too, is,
is these, because there's a, there's a

568
00:32:48,404 --> 00:32:54,125
contingent in, in the ramen scene that
sort of wants to elevate, it wants to

569
00:32:54,605 --> 00:32:56,175
make everything a little bit more refined.

570
00:32:56,485 --> 00:32:58,175
And I have respect for that.

571
00:32:59,005 --> 00:33:01,585
But, like in the case of a
full English, that doesn't

572
00:33:01,595 --> 00:33:03,475
necessarily make the dish better.

573
00:33:03,935 --> 00:33:08,225
Like, sometimes the best
ramen is the sloppiest, most,

574
00:33:08,255 --> 00:33:10,414
like, thrown together thing.

575
00:33:10,784 --> 00:33:15,354
Like, I, I, I mentioned Ramen Jido in the
book, which, which does have, of course,

576
00:33:15,355 --> 00:33:18,865
a, a certain process that goes into it,
and a, a, a certain amount of thought.

577
00:33:19,165 --> 00:33:22,995
But it is also, like, Ramen Jido is
one of the most chaotic, dirty...

578
00:33:23,435 --> 00:33:26,795
Ramen shops I've ever seen, and I'm not
the only one who thinks this, like, you go

579
00:33:26,795 --> 00:33:33,525
in there, and I'll never forget this, the
chef, the master, he's in there dipping

580
00:33:33,525 --> 00:33:37,514
his hands into boiling noodle water to
check if the noodles are done, with his

581
00:33:37,515 --> 00:33:41,864
fingertips, and he's got a bandaid on
one of them, and it's like, and there's

582
00:33:41,864 --> 00:33:46,125
another guy stirring the broth with a
big wooden beam, it looks like a fence

583
00:33:46,145 --> 00:33:51,280
post, and like, there's grease all over
the walls, And you just go in there and

584
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:55,370
you think, man, this is not, but, but
then it comes down to taste and it's

585
00:33:55,370 --> 00:33:59,720
about like, it's about experience and,
and I guess a certain kind of technique.

586
00:33:59,999 --> 00:34:03,649
It's, it's not about like dialing
in individual elements and making

587
00:34:03,650 --> 00:34:04,769
sure that everything is just right.

588
00:34:04,770 --> 00:34:08,189
It's about sort of adjusting
on the fly and, and it's

589
00:34:08,190 --> 00:34:09,489
about filling you up cheaply.

590
00:34:09,490 --> 00:34:14,140
It's, and that to me is as important,
if not a more important sort

591
00:34:14,140 --> 00:34:18,590
of aspect or part of, of ramen
culture is this sort of like.

592
00:34:19,340 --> 00:34:25,650
You know, here's something that is
made to a certain level of care,

593
00:34:26,940 --> 00:34:30,719
but also just meant to sort of like
put meat on your bones and fill

594
00:34:30,720 --> 00:34:38,650
you up cheaply without being at all
pretentious or precise, basically.

595
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:43,490
And I really do think that that is
sort of an important part of ramen

596
00:34:43,490 --> 00:34:44,570
culture I want people to understand.

597
00:34:44,570 --> 00:34:47,490
Because the original ramen, at least
if you read sort of the history

598
00:34:47,490 --> 00:34:51,300
books on it, uh, like Slurp by
Barrett Kushner is my favorite.

599
00:34:51,789 --> 00:34:56,340
He describes one of the original sort of
proto ramen, Champon, as a dish of scraps.

600
00:34:56,420 --> 00:34:59,680
Like, literally like, and it
still is in a lot of ways.

601
00:35:00,180 --> 00:35:05,675
It's bones, and like, Not prime
cuts of pork and wheat flour.

602
00:35:05,685 --> 00:35:11,145
Like it's a cheap, simple, humble
dish made from nothing special.

603
00:35:11,145 --> 00:35:13,725
I think if you can get that, if
you can, if you can start with

604
00:35:14,125 --> 00:35:17,525
not anything special ingredients
that make a great bowl of ramen.

605
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:19,590
Then, you're a pro.

606
00:35:20,190 --> 00:35:22,570
You've got all my respect, basically.

607
00:35:22,580 --> 00:35:24,810
If you start with great ingredients
and make a great bowl of ramen,

608
00:35:24,810 --> 00:35:26,809
it's like, eh, who cares?

609
00:35:27,930 --> 00:35:28,659
Anybody can do it.

610
00:35:29,729 --> 00:35:30,830
Lucy: Something from nothing.

611
00:35:30,860 --> 00:35:31,600
That's what we want.

612
00:35:32,380 --> 00:35:36,850
I wanted to ask you about, um, kind
of that idea of being an expert.

613
00:35:37,370 --> 00:35:42,160
Um, because it's something I sort of think
about a lot when it comes to, I guess,

614
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,170
the voices we hear in the food world.

615
00:35:44,290 --> 00:35:44,850
And...

616
00:35:45,380 --> 00:35:48,280
Japanese food, I feel like in this
country, there are obviously people

617
00:35:48,290 --> 00:35:51,860
who have been writing about it for a
long time, but there isn't kind of a,

618
00:35:52,130 --> 00:35:57,189
a big breadth and wealth of voices,
it's kind of a few people, and I

619
00:35:57,190 --> 00:36:01,039
wonder how you feel about being seen
as this expert voice, particularly

620
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:02,490
as somebody who's not Japanese.

621
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,120
Tim: Yeah, I don't know.

622
00:36:05,240 --> 00:36:10,310
Um, I, um, for one
thing, it's all relative.

623
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,780
And if you're the guy in the room
who knows the most about something,

624
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,520
or more than anybody else, rather,
They're going to call you the expert,

625
00:36:17,540 --> 00:36:19,340
whether or not you feel that yourself.

626
00:36:19,340 --> 00:36:21,800
And they're going to be
looking to you for answers.

627
00:36:21,870 --> 00:36:24,380
And I accept that.

628
00:36:24,620 --> 00:36:28,390
Like, if I, if people come to me
and they say, we would like to know

629
00:36:28,390 --> 00:36:32,520
about Japanese food to some degree,
whether it's in the form of a book

630
00:36:32,569 --> 00:36:37,080
or doing the radio or whatever,
I'll say, okay, here's what I know.

631
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:38,620
Here's my opinions on it.

632
00:36:38,620 --> 00:36:39,460
Here's what I've learned.

633
00:36:40,310 --> 00:36:44,390
But, you're absolutely right that I
can't be the only one and I can't be,

634
00:36:45,060 --> 00:36:47,680
I can't be the first stop, basically.

635
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:51,230
Um, I think you've got to find the
right person for the right job.

636
00:36:51,689 --> 00:36:54,670
So, I'll give you an example
where I didn't do that.

637
00:36:54,750 --> 00:36:56,210
Or I did not follow that rule.

638
00:36:56,210 --> 00:36:57,650
That's my vegan book.

639
00:36:57,650 --> 00:36:59,940
That's the book I probably
shouldn't have written.

640
00:37:00,610 --> 00:37:01,300
I did my best.

641
00:37:01,310 --> 00:37:02,730
They asked me, can you do a vegan book?

642
00:37:02,730 --> 00:37:06,629
And I said, okay, I know
some things about that.

643
00:37:06,630 --> 00:37:08,900
But really, that's a whole
other tradition in Japan.

644
00:37:09,775 --> 00:37:12,435
And I mentioned it in the book,
there's shojin yori, which is this

645
00:37:12,455 --> 00:37:13,845
Buddhist vegetarian tradition.

646
00:37:14,055 --> 00:37:17,175
Um, and I said, I basically say in the
book, like, I don't know enough about

647
00:37:17,175 --> 00:37:20,095
this to write about it, so here's a
bunch of other dishes I can write about.

648
00:37:21,054 --> 00:37:24,485
Whereas, in retrospect, I probably
should have passed on that one and

649
00:37:24,485 --> 00:37:26,545
said, I'm not your expert here.

650
00:37:26,675 --> 00:37:27,715
I can do ramen.

651
00:37:27,774 --> 00:37:29,195
I can do easy Japanese home cooking.

652
00:37:29,195 --> 00:37:30,345
I can do izakaya food.

653
00:37:30,665 --> 00:37:34,545
But there's somebody else out there who is
going to be able to explain this better.

654
00:37:35,190 --> 00:37:38,740
So I guess that's sort of the
thing is you've got to find the

655
00:37:38,740 --> 00:37:41,010
right expert for the right topic.

656
00:37:41,060 --> 00:37:45,500
And when it comes to Japanese food and I,
you know, any, any kind of food really,

657
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:49,729
there is so much within that food.

658
00:37:49,740 --> 00:37:51,330
It's not just one thing.

659
00:37:51,339 --> 00:37:53,570
There are individual dishes.

660
00:37:53,570 --> 00:37:55,920
There are sub genres.

661
00:37:56,450 --> 00:37:59,100
Um, there's historical recipes.

662
00:37:59,100 --> 00:38:00,700
There's sort of modern fine dining.

663
00:38:00,700 --> 00:38:03,380
There's all these different elements
to all these different foods.

664
00:38:04,150 --> 00:38:08,570
And so it's about sort of, I
think, uh, knowing, figuring out

665
00:38:08,590 --> 00:38:12,780
what your wheelhouse is and then
staying within that to some degree.

666
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,360
Then it's a two way street.

667
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:21,539
It's like, uh, you know, people have to,
when they're looking for expertise, they

668
00:38:21,539 --> 00:38:25,029
have to find the right person just as
much as people who are in that position

669
00:38:25,039 --> 00:38:27,330
have to say yes or no, basically.

670
00:38:27,850 --> 00:38:33,470
And one thing I would, I would like to see
more of are, and this is again a situation

671
00:38:33,470 --> 00:38:34,830
where it's sort of a two way street.

672
00:38:35,465 --> 00:38:42,155
I'd like to see more interest in
regional Japanese food, and then finding

673
00:38:42,245 --> 00:38:44,375
the right person to talk about that.

674
00:38:45,285 --> 00:38:48,344
I did a book on Tokyo as
well, Tokyo local foods.

675
00:38:49,275 --> 00:38:51,844
And then the topic came up
at the publisher, it's like,

676
00:38:51,844 --> 00:38:53,985
okay, well, what about Kyoto?

677
00:38:54,045 --> 00:38:55,114
What about Osaka?

678
00:38:55,125 --> 00:38:56,304
What about Okinawa?

679
00:38:56,305 --> 00:38:57,664
All these other kind of regions.

680
00:38:57,665 --> 00:39:00,625
Like, yeah, absolutely,
somebody should do these books.

681
00:39:01,490 --> 00:39:02,300
But not me.

682
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,800
And also, the demand has to be there.

683
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,450
That's a commercial consideration.

684
00:39:08,450 --> 00:39:12,400
But like, you know, would
a book on Kyoto food sell?

685
00:39:12,409 --> 00:39:13,480
I don't know.

686
00:39:13,670 --> 00:39:16,489
But if it does, then
absolutely it should be done.

687
00:39:16,489 --> 00:39:19,644
And it should be somebody who really
knows that cuisine well to do it.

688
00:39:19,895 --> 00:39:20,065
Yeah,

689
00:39:20,065 --> 00:39:22,395
Lucy: I think that's a really good
point, and this is all very much tied

690
00:39:22,395 --> 00:39:24,655
in with the commercial aspect of it.

691
00:39:24,655 --> 00:39:27,915
Kind of, when you frame it in that way,
it feels strange that the people who have

692
00:39:27,915 --> 00:39:32,425
the most power in which voices are heard
in food are the people who are trying

693
00:39:32,425 --> 00:39:34,944
to sell something, which obviously,
like, in the society we live in.

694
00:39:35,420 --> 00:39:40,040
Makes a lot of sense, like, it's the way
that we live, but it's also, like, quite,

695
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:45,880
it's quite fucked up, and, yeah, and, you
know, I appreciate you sharing that about

696
00:39:45,890 --> 00:39:49,520
the, the vegan book, I think that's really
interesting to have had that reflection

697
00:39:49,530 --> 00:39:53,659
that actually, you know, outside of the
moment that you agreed to do it, um,

698
00:39:53,669 --> 00:39:56,809
maybe somebody else could have written
it, but it's also, I respect that it's

699
00:39:56,809 --> 00:39:58,889
really hard to say no to those things.

700
00:39:58,899 --> 00:40:02,769
Tim: Well, that's it, I mean, this is
now my livelihood, this is my career.

701
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:08,470
And so, like any sort of, basically,
freelancer, it's hard to turn down work.

702
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:13,650
Although, now, luckily, some of the
books are paying royalties, so I have

703
00:40:13,650 --> 00:40:17,810
a little bit more financial freedom
to say no to things, basically.

704
00:40:17,860 --> 00:40:21,099
And we've had conversations with the
publisher, and we're, to be honest,

705
00:40:21,099 --> 00:40:22,140
we're a little bit stuck right now.

706
00:40:22,140 --> 00:40:27,320
Because, you know, finding Venn diagram
where it's something that they want.

707
00:40:27,870 --> 00:40:32,960
Something that readers want and something
that I want and also can do That's

708
00:40:32,980 --> 00:40:34,990
becoming harder and harder to pin down.

709
00:40:34,990 --> 00:40:39,320
So You know, I could write about
Japanese food forever, because

710
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,330
that's the nature of the subject.

711
00:40:41,330 --> 00:40:46,489
It just, it goes on forever, but
it would require more research,

712
00:40:46,489 --> 00:40:47,580
sort of, on the ground in Japan.

713
00:40:47,580 --> 00:40:49,660
I'm limited by living here.

714
00:40:50,620 --> 00:40:51,940
Lucy: We all are limited by living here.

715
00:40:52,910 --> 00:40:53,599
Tim: Tell me about it.

716
00:40:54,090 --> 00:40:57,400
So, it's, it's, yeah, it's a tricky one.

717
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,140
And, you know, I'm at
the point now where we...

718
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:04,490
What I would love to do is sort of do
what Oto Lengi has started doing with

719
00:41:04,490 --> 00:41:08,769
these co authored books And I don't know
exactly what sort of form that would

720
00:41:08,769 --> 00:41:12,450
take if it would ever take form But like
because I love writing the books and I

721
00:41:12,450 --> 00:41:17,050
love the sort of learning and research
that goes into them but It'd be great

722
00:41:17,059 --> 00:41:21,069
to sort of collaborate with people on
specialist subjects who who who know

723
00:41:21,069 --> 00:41:26,040
more than I do basically and get them Get
their perspective in there Their voices.

724
00:41:26,140 --> 00:41:28,810
Sometimes I think, to be completely
honest, it's like, well, I've

725
00:41:28,810 --> 00:41:32,180
done the writing, and I've
enjoyed it, and I still enjoy it.

726
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:36,560
But at this point, it's almost like, well,
I want to be the commissioning editor now.

727
00:41:38,470 --> 00:41:41,989
I want to start finding other people who
I think are interesting and could write

728
00:41:41,990 --> 00:41:43,749
interesting things about Japanese food.

729
00:41:44,150 --> 00:41:46,880
And putting them out there, because
I want to see their books, you know?

730
00:41:47,645 --> 00:41:50,865
I don't have that power other than
recommending people, I suppose.

731
00:41:50,925 --> 00:41:52,175
Lucy: This is, I love this.

732
00:41:52,215 --> 00:41:53,785
I mean, you could do this, Tim.

733
00:41:53,785 --> 00:41:58,534
I believe that, you know, an independent
publishing house that publishes.

734
00:41:58,785 --> 00:42:01,595
But was it, yeah, I mean, to come back
to what you said about the Ottolenghi

735
00:42:01,605 --> 00:42:03,255
model, I think that's such a good point.

736
00:42:03,505 --> 00:42:06,954
Um, and it is such, I think that's
such an interesting and valuable

737
00:42:06,954 --> 00:42:08,294
use of a platform that he has.

738
00:42:09,535 --> 00:42:12,615
To really bring people in, and I think
it was something that he maybe didn't

739
00:42:12,615 --> 00:42:16,985
always do and has definitely made
more effort to, um, give people the

740
00:42:16,985 --> 00:42:19,554
credit they deserve in, in this way.

741
00:42:19,555 --> 00:42:23,584
And I think that's, that would be a really
interesting avenue for you to go down,

742
00:42:23,635 --> 00:42:25,095
um, and I personally would love to see it.

743
00:42:25,354 --> 00:42:26,225
Tim: Tell my publisher.

744
00:42:28,745 --> 00:42:29,005
I don't know.

745
00:42:29,985 --> 00:42:30,994
Lucy: I'll tag them in there.

746
00:42:32,285 --> 00:42:35,995
It is so difficult because there are so
many people with fantastic ideas and,

747
00:42:36,405 --> 00:42:39,905
but yeah, it's about the market at the
end of the day and, and that's, the

748
00:42:39,905 --> 00:42:45,174
trouble is that people buy books from
things they know about already, I guess.

749
00:42:45,255 --> 00:42:48,444
Tim: There are an awful lot of
Japanese cookbooks that are basically

750
00:42:48,444 --> 00:42:53,285
kind of the same book, which are
classic, simple home cooking books.

751
00:42:53,905 --> 00:42:55,545
I honestly, I love those kinds of books.

752
00:42:55,545 --> 00:42:56,115
I really do.

753
00:42:56,115 --> 00:42:59,855
And I think the thing is you can,
um, you can have both, you can have

754
00:42:59,855 --> 00:43:04,890
the sort of simple Easy recipes,
accessible recipes, that are also

755
00:43:04,890 --> 00:43:09,750
sort of more specific to different
regions or subcultures of, of Japan.

756
00:43:10,339 --> 00:43:12,629
I'm working on a book about
Hokkaido food right now, which is

757
00:43:12,629 --> 00:43:14,920
sort of a lifelong dream project.

758
00:43:14,980 --> 00:43:18,170
And there's a lot of stuff that I, I
can't really put in the book because

759
00:43:18,170 --> 00:43:23,650
it's, it's sort of too difficult
even for me, in terms of technique or

760
00:43:23,690 --> 00:43:25,180
sourcing ingredients in particular.

761
00:43:25,710 --> 00:43:29,470
But there's also plenty of
stuff that is super simple.

762
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:33,640
And delicious, and that uses ingredients
that are really widely available.

763
00:43:34,350 --> 00:43:37,160
I almost think of it as, you could
do it almost like a Trojan horse.

764
00:43:37,170 --> 00:43:43,130
You can write a book that says on the
cover, like, easy Japanese comfort food

765
00:43:43,130 --> 00:43:47,220
or whatever, and have the book be like
half that, and then have that other

766
00:43:47,220 --> 00:43:49,839
half be like, a bunch of weird shit.

767
00:43:51,769 --> 00:43:54,589
Not weird shit, but you know what I mean,
like, here's a bunch of stuff maybe people

768
00:43:54,589 --> 00:44:01,239
don't know about, and, and, get them to,
uh, expand their Japanese food horizons.

769
00:44:02,050 --> 00:44:03,420
Almost in a sneaky way.

770
00:44:04,250 --> 00:44:05,980
Lucy: I mean I think
there's something in that.

771
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:09,480
I just interviewed Clarissa Wei
who has a book out called Made in

772
00:44:09,490 --> 00:44:14,149
Taiwan and um, she basically was
like, none of these recipes are easy.

773
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:17,740
Like, you need to understand this is
not like an everyday cookbook that

774
00:44:17,789 --> 00:44:19,349
people are going to use every night.

775
00:44:19,510 --> 00:44:21,190
This is a process of documentation.

776
00:44:21,190 --> 00:44:21,820
Like, this is...

777
00:44:23,180 --> 00:44:26,680
I mean, obviously, politically, Taiwan
is in a very different position to Japan,

778
00:44:26,720 --> 00:44:30,150
and that's kind of some of the motivation
for writing the book, was that if we

779
00:44:30,150 --> 00:44:32,949
don't write these recipes down now and
speak to these people about what they

780
00:44:32,949 --> 00:44:36,180
cook, we might never have the chance
again, which is obviously a, there's a

781
00:44:36,180 --> 00:44:40,715
lot more impetus there, but, you know,
I, It's, it made me really think about

782
00:44:40,715 --> 00:44:44,055
the idea of what a recipe means because
I think I've been guilty in the past

783
00:44:44,055 --> 00:44:49,005
of writing off the recipe book as kind
of quite a cosy, um, you know, thing.

784
00:44:49,005 --> 00:44:53,435
And I love recipe books, I have many, but
I think I've really come to understand

785
00:44:53,435 --> 00:44:54,924
its power as like a political tool.

786
00:44:55,954 --> 00:44:56,134
Yeah.

787
00:44:56,665 --> 00:44:57,825
So yeah, there you go.

788
00:44:58,225 --> 00:44:59,245
Tim: That is, uh.

789
00:44:59,755 --> 00:45:04,615
Interesting thing you're bringing
up, actually, because part of the

790
00:45:04,645 --> 00:45:07,805
challenge of writing the book about
Hokkaido is addressing Ainu food.

791
00:45:07,855 --> 00:45:11,415
Ainu are this indigenous group
in Hokkaido and also live in

792
00:45:11,415 --> 00:45:12,715
the Kuril Islands and Sakhalin.

793
00:45:13,624 --> 00:45:19,644
And they were basically, their culture was
almost wiped out by the Japanese imperial

794
00:45:19,674 --> 00:45:23,015
government in the late 19th century.

795
00:45:23,205 --> 00:45:24,735
But now it's having this cultural revival.

796
00:45:25,495 --> 00:45:28,995
And even talking about that story...

797
00:45:29,630 --> 00:45:36,360
As an outsider to the culture, feels like
almost something I don't want to touch.

798
00:45:36,370 --> 00:45:40,450
It has to be talked about, but
like, it doesn't feel like it's my

799
00:45:40,450 --> 00:45:42,390
place to criticize or politicize.

800
00:45:43,100 --> 00:45:46,789
So this is something I'm like,
just being, trying to be very

801
00:45:46,789 --> 00:45:48,399
mindful of at the moment.

802
00:45:48,979 --> 00:45:55,100
Um, while also realizing that
this is a, uh, this will be an

803
00:45:55,100 --> 00:45:57,530
introduction to this food culture
that a lot of people don't know about.

804
00:45:57,540 --> 00:45:57,989
So like.

805
00:45:59,125 --> 00:46:03,105
It is tricky, and I think that what I'm
trying to do, like what I've sort of,

806
00:46:03,105 --> 00:46:10,235
uh, Uh, my strategy that I've landed
on is, uh, is not be overtly political,

807
00:46:10,495 --> 00:46:16,195
Not sort of give my two cents in the
book too much, But just in talking about

808
00:46:16,195 --> 00:46:18,255
it, you are sort of making a statement.

809
00:46:19,245 --> 00:46:19,605
Mm.

810
00:46:19,645 --> 00:46:22,635
Whether or not people sort of receive
that statement or not I guess is

811
00:46:22,635 --> 00:46:27,375
up to the reader, And how strongly
I sort of convey it, but like, The

812
00:46:27,375 --> 00:46:28,925
story has to be told, I suppose.

813
00:46:28,925 --> 00:46:31,195
And that in itself is kind of political.

814
00:46:31,475 --> 00:46:31,935
This is the thing.

815
00:46:31,935 --> 00:46:35,905
My, my job is really like, I consider
myself sort of a professional enthusiast.

816
00:46:36,525 --> 00:46:40,845
My job is to sort of like say,
Hey, look at all this great stuff.

817
00:46:40,945 --> 00:46:43,315
Look at, look at what
we can learn from Japan.

818
00:46:43,335 --> 00:46:45,665
Cause it's, it's brought me a
lot of joy and understanding

819
00:46:46,275 --> 00:46:48,835
not to say, Ooh, no, no, no.

820
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:54,950
Bad things here, like, you know, that,
that feels hypocritical in a way, and,

821
00:46:54,950 --> 00:46:58,970
and just not my place, but on the other
hand, like, you can't avoid it sometimes,

822
00:46:58,980 --> 00:47:01,409
so, it's tricky, it's really tricky.

823
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:15,259
The sort of main tension in the book,
I guess, is, and I think this is a

824
00:47:15,259 --> 00:47:17,850
tension in ramen, making ramen generally.

825
00:47:18,530 --> 00:47:25,850
Is the sort of the balance between
doing something properly and sort

826
00:47:25,850 --> 00:47:32,050
of by the books and nailing the
basics and also making your own.

827
00:47:32,900 --> 00:47:36,049
Because I think that this is
not just about ramen, this is

828
00:47:36,049 --> 00:47:37,450
about Japanese food generally.

829
00:47:37,450 --> 00:47:41,290
Because I think that every type
of Japanese food has that, has

830
00:47:41,300 --> 00:47:42,500
both those things within it.

831
00:47:43,730 --> 00:47:47,270
And I've talked in the book
and elsewhere about how...

832
00:47:48,175 --> 00:47:53,185
Noodle cultures like udon and soba don't
see as many regional variations and as

833
00:47:53,185 --> 00:47:57,435
many sort of creative takes on it in
Japan But that's less and less true.

834
00:47:57,435 --> 00:48:00,984
And and I think that nowadays when
I go to Japan I go to udon shops or

835
00:48:00,984 --> 00:48:03,825
soba shops I'm amazed at actually
what chefs are doing with it.

836
00:48:04,385 --> 00:48:10,285
I had an udon moment in Shinjuku Several
years ago where they made a kind of a

837
00:48:10,285 --> 00:48:13,965
carbonara udon But I don't think they
invented or anything like that, but it

838
00:48:13,965 --> 00:48:19,630
was basically like hot udon Served with
a little bit of So you top with butter,

839
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,970
cheese, and a slab of tempura bacon.

840
00:48:23,330 --> 00:48:26,570
And I was just like, I didn't
know udon could be this.

841
00:48:26,590 --> 00:48:30,100
And, and, but they'd also, obviously
they knew what they were doing in

842
00:48:30,100 --> 00:48:33,580
terms of making the noodles and,
and the, the, the fundamentals.

843
00:48:34,149 --> 00:48:35,580
And I think that, you know.

844
00:48:36,100 --> 00:48:39,040
When people talk about what you can
or can't do with food, especially if

845
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:43,570
it's not your culture's food, there's
not that many limits in terms of like,

846
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:47,680
if you want to go crazy with toppings
or, or creative takes on something.

847
00:48:48,510 --> 00:48:55,019
You know, I already mentioned the pizza
ramen, which exists in Japan, or, or curry

848
00:48:55,019 --> 00:48:56,580
ramen, or all these different things.

849
00:48:56,580 --> 00:48:57,900
French onion ramen, whatever.

850
00:48:58,390 --> 00:49:02,590
But if you haven't sort of respected
the basics and got the, the fundamental

851
00:49:02,590 --> 00:49:04,720
understanding right, then you can't do it.

852
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:08,610
I'm not gonna say can't, but like,
And not just because it's sort of

853
00:49:08,610 --> 00:49:12,610
disrespectful, but also because it just
won't be good, like you have to sort of...

854
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:14,930
And also you gotta, you gotta eat.

855
00:49:14,979 --> 00:49:19,890
You gotta eat as much ramen as
you can to sort of understand it.

856
00:49:20,460 --> 00:49:21,159
You really do.

857
00:49:21,230 --> 00:49:24,070
It's not just about the making
and understanding the process.

858
00:49:24,100 --> 00:49:28,229
It's about understanding the
sort of sensory impact, I guess.

859
00:49:28,230 --> 00:49:30,140
And how the noodles
feel when you chew them.

860
00:49:30,830 --> 00:49:35,330
And how the hot lard on top
works, and all this stuff.

861
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:36,800
It really is like...

862
00:49:38,060 --> 00:49:40,430
When you have a bowl of
ramen in it, it doesn't work.

863
00:49:41,430 --> 00:49:42,930
Or when it does, rather.

864
00:49:43,980 --> 00:49:46,780
That is one of the hardest things to
describe because it's about so many

865
00:49:46,780 --> 00:49:48,679
different things sort of coming together.

866
00:49:49,420 --> 00:49:52,259
And understanding, I guess, the
fundamentals will help you understand

867
00:49:52,570 --> 00:49:55,460
what makes that alchemy happen, I guess.

868
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:57,560
That's what I want to say.

869
00:49:59,390 --> 00:50:04,480
Yeah, it's a very fun dish
to play around with, but...

870
00:50:04,570 --> 00:50:06,975
You know, do your homework, . That's all.

871
00:50:07,865 --> 00:50:13,490
Lucy: Lecker is hosted
and produced by me, Lucy.

872
00:50:13,490 --> 00:50:16,790
Dear Love, thanks to
my guest, Tim Anderson.

873
00:50:17,060 --> 00:50:21,980
Rama Forever is out now published
by Hardy Grant as part of

874
00:50:21,980 --> 00:50:23,180
this monthly LE Book Club.

875
00:50:23,240 --> 00:50:25,935
I'll be writing about the book over
on the Le Substack and Patreon.

876
00:50:26,740 --> 00:50:28,240
Have you been cooking from it too?

877
00:50:28,330 --> 00:50:29,920
Come and chat about your favorite risk.

878
00:50:31,020 --> 00:50:34,000
Or tag me on Instagram any
dishes you've made from it.

879
00:50:34,010 --> 00:50:34,700
I'd love to see them.

880
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:39,520
And before I go, I'd like to remind
you that you can also sign up as a paid

881
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:44,130
subscriber to support Lekka on Apple
Podcasts, Patreon, Substack as well.

882
00:50:44,590 --> 00:50:45,690
Links will be in the show notes.

883
00:50:46,690 --> 00:50:49,149
There's a series that's running
at the moment, very slowly, thank

884
00:50:49,149 --> 00:50:52,759
you for your patience, about food
packaging called Out of the Box.

885
00:50:52,939 --> 00:50:55,380
So subscribe to get full access to that.

886
00:50:55,930 --> 00:50:58,480
And to any paid subscribers who
are listening here, anyone who's.

887
00:50:58,715 --> 00:50:59,665
Subscribe recently.

888
00:51:00,015 --> 00:51:01,655
Thank you so much for
your continued support.

889
00:51:01,685 --> 00:51:06,125
It's much appreciated music in the
episode is by blue dot sessions.

890
00:51:06,935 --> 00:51:07,974
Thanks very much for listening.