Welcome to the green room, the podcast that bridges the gap between church
production and every other aspect of a worship service. From programming directors
to worship leaders, volunteers to vendors, tune in for inspiring
conversations, expert advice, and and a unique look into the intricate puzzle of
church production. Here's your host, Aaron Freeman.
Alright. We're recording. Josh, thanks for joining us, today,
this is super awesome. Josh Sullins, you are music director
at, First Brunswick Baptist Church. Yeah. And,
yes. Been the worship pastor there for two and a half years at
First Baptist Brunswick. I appreciate the invitation to be a part of this today.
Yeah. Absolutely. This is, fun. We've known each other for a couple years through our
wives. They're both in sort of the creative industry. And, yeah, it's
been it's and cool getting to know you and and your views on Sunday
services and stuff like that. And, Yeah. I would love to just talk to you
more about Those kind of things, just like what's what's
your thinking, with, church production involved
with your side of the music planning and stuff like Yeah. Like, how do
what how does that integrate into your plan for a Sunday?
Sure. Yeah. I think it's a really good question. I think it's a lot of
Conversations that are being held in the worship ministry areas of
churches these days. We're all just trying to figure out
exactly how to, help people
on their journey and their expression of worship to the lord
and incorporating that as part of what's taking place on a Sunday morning.
So, it is literally taking the music. It's taking the
scripture. It's taking the foundation, and it's Taking the goal of
where we want to take our people in their worship
experience on, on any given worship service. And
production's just another the sort of step of that and just
broadcasting it or enhancing enhancing. Do you you see
it as enhancing, or do you see it as just Absolutely. Yeah.
Absolutely. I think that production in and of itself everything that we
do inside the church's ministry. Right? And so when you look at it from
the of the worship ministry as a whole. Everything that
we have, all the tools, all the resources, production, you
know, the music, All of those elements,
the prayers, all of those things are part of what's taking place
on the Sunday morning that enhances the worship experience as a whole.
No. That's great. I love that. Yeah. I know, 1st Brunswick
I I started seeing 1st Brunswick pop up more and more,
on TikTok With, your former now, I
guess, production guy there, Colby, which he's gonna
be on the podcast later, Which is gonna be fun to talk to him about
the whole the whole TikTok thing and how that's integrating. And, I know
he, well, I don't know if He did it, but, like, I'd love to
hear, like, your thought process on, like, integrating, like, the the,
sort of the pre show stuff, the the interview. And so was that
Colby's idea, or was that your idea, the pastor's idea? Like, how how did that
bubble up? Absolutely. So you mentioned Colby. Colby is, hands
down, one of the the best production Directors I think that I've ever had the
opportunity to work with the ministry, and he's just an incredible,
asset to, any church. He definitely was a Huge instrumental
part of the production ministry at at First Brunswick
here. And I think as far as the the preservice time
goes with that, just kinda preparing the people for the service.
We wanted to make sure, that we were connecting with people
in our online community. Obviously, COVID,
made a huge impact in churches and their ministries and the reaches from a
digital standpoint, social media, and it kind of caused us
to have to step up our game to make sure that we were
continuing to be able to reach are people because they weren't able to
actually come into the building, and we still had the responsibility to share the
gospel. So that was a huge influence. And I think
1st Brunswick for us, making sure that we would take the steps to
to continue to be able to minister to our people And to
share the gospel. What we didn't realize, I don't know that it was in a,
initial thought process, was that it was able to expand
our reach beyond, the people that were a part of our
church. And so the preservice moment, it was
really designed as Just an opportunity to welcome people to the
feed, rather than just having, you know, your typical
preservice slides, what you would run if you were in the room, you know, just
All the the announcements, the preservice time
was, intentional to try to build the community
aspect, because that's something that's very important, I
think, inside the walls of the church and outside of the walls of the church.
So that preservice moment was really used to to Just welcome people,
build community, and just let them know that we're acknowledging that they're here and
worship with us that day. I know I've been Somewhat involved
in conversations around, like, the the online
community. What do we do with that? Are we using it to get
people To the church, or are we doing it
to just flat out just make sure that they hear about
Jesus? You know, what was you what was y'all thinking about the
about that? Well, I think in some cases,
Sations is making it an either or question. I think
that, you know, ministry as a whole is,
to connect people to our savior, right, is to connect people to
god. And I think that as we're using that element
of our ministries as that tool. Sometimes it might
be if they're local and they're checking out the church for
the very first time, then it might be an avenue to
where their next step might be to attend in person. But if
it's someone that's not local to the area, Then that may be their
form of worship and their form of connectivity in an online
capacity. Or in in our case, we have people from
different countries that are watching our worship service online. And so
there's ways for us to be able to connect with people from other countries that
we would never have, if not for that resource. So it's a
both and, I think. Sometimes, yes, the the, the goal
is to connect people inside the church. And then sometimes I think that it's
just to say, hey. We're we're glad that you're here. We wanna
connect with you, and we wanna minister to you in this kind of format as
well. So it I certainly think that it's a both and,
answer to that question. I I know for us, we're definitely not looking at
it Unfortunately, I I tend to agree that it, yeah, needs to be
a both and not and or because otherwise, if it's a choice,
then why do The online thing. Yeah. I mean, it's
stop and then just get people in the building. Right. I mean, it's it's,
it's the the question I think that we have to answer. If we're
not just talking about production and we're not just talking about worship,
we're literally just thinking about things from the aspect of
ministry itself, right, And the great commission. And so
the in the most simplistic terms, we're just wanting to
continue to be obedient to that great commission call and just sharing the gospel.
Right? And we know that our call as pastors
is to equip people for the work of the ministry. So if that's the case
and we're kind of setting that as our parameters for what it is we're doing
with all of our ministries at the church. Then as we're thinking about the online
community, we're we're sharing the gospel, and then we have to figure out
How to equip people. And the best way to equip people,
obviously, is through discipleship, and we all know that discipleship
is, based in relationships and community. So I think
those are important elements for any aspect of ministry in the
church, not just production, not just worship ministry, But we have to make sure that
we're we're all in alignment together with regards to that, that goal and that
philosophy of ministry. Yeah. No. That's that's really cool. I like that.
Getting on the online conversation, you know, I think it's a fascinating conversation.
Like, it's a conversation that I think all churches are
having now after COVID. You know, before it was the
bigger churches that were, like, doing it. And
then, maybe some of the smaller churches were thinking about it,
like, we're not gonna invest in it. And then, like, all of a sudden, it
was like, We need cameras and we need Internet and we need, like, let's go.
Let's do this. We need it now. We need it in next week.
Yeah. How was how was that transition for you. What were you guys streaming online
before, 2020? Mm-mm. No. 1st press
was not streaming before COVID. And so this was one
of those opportunities that I think that, again, the church
did not even imagine what the capability would be. And I'm very
thankful for their obedience to fall through, follow through
and, to provide the resources in order to Establish
that, that avenue of ministry. And, you know, Erin, I think that it's
it's worth mentioning as we're talking about that and the conversation, that's
taking place in the church, You're now getting,
people to start have the start having
the conversation of, do we continue to do
online streaming. Do we continue? Because I think that, in
in a lot of people's minds, they they thing that in order
for people to be engaged with the church, that they
have to be in the 4 walls. They have to to,
if we can't get, you know, one of the struggles, on the backside
of COVID was how do we get people to come back to our church? You
know? And, yes, we still wanna reach them. We still want
to, to present the gospel to them. We wanna have as much
community as we can, But we need to figure out a way to get them
back into church. And some people, unfortunately, in in my opinion, have
made the decision to stop, streaming, in their
platforms, in their online platforms in hopes that that will
encourage people to come back to the church. But if you we go back and
we think back to that time period with relation to the pandemic. And
we start thinking about the impact that online streaming, was
having with relation to the gospel and sharing. It was one of the best
things that I think the church has done in recent history. And so I
I think I would encourage people to not
shy away from that and not make their primary goal to
get people back into the building. I think that we need to think in the
terms of, hey. This is 2023. This is a digital aid.
And if we're using this from a corporate standpoint and most businesses
now, The church can't shy away from these resources that we've
now been given. We have to learn how to embrace these things and use
them in different ways in order to continue to do, to fulfill the
call that god has given to us. And I think rather than pulling
back, I think we should be leaning in. I think we should be having
more conversation about, what happens
to the people at the end of the worship service if they've joined us
online. What is the next step? Yeah. What is the
next step? How do we engage with those people who
are interested in in discipleship? You know? What are the next steps that
we're giving to them. We do a good job with that, I think, in in
a lot of ways inside the church because the people are physically
there in front of us. But I know I'm not sure
that we continue to think about it in those terms with relation
to the digital format. And and I think that's an important
conversation that that needs to be in sport, inside the church,
for sure. No. I I love that. And that is something that I've been I've
been thinking about, and posing
questions to our team,
at Northpointe is, like,
what is well, like, what are we doing for the people
online? Because there there is a There's a dedicated
peep amount of people every single week That's
right. That, I hold
I'm so sorry. One sec. I've been signed out of Zoom.
Hold on. And these are the necessary things that we
all deal with every Sunday. Right? Yes.
Yes. I don't know how much you know about the
Northpointe stream. Therefore, several years ago,
you know, we we did the online host. And,
we played with the,
online community group thing. And so and then
we the leadership decided to stop doing those kind of
things and just do a stream, and then that sort of
ramped up With COVID, like, we're just gonna stream, like,
we're good, and then coming back in the building. Oh, you know, same story for
a lot of churches. But, you know, I've Been thinking a lot
lately, like, very consistent numbers online,
and we maybe acknowledge them once in the
service. There's not there's no I mean, we have
next steps for them. There's some things that that they can
do, but it's not Specific next steps for the people that
are watching online or specific things that are
acknowledging that, hey. There's this amount of people online,
and so I've been, you know, playing with ideas
and throwing out questions and just seeing what, you know, what we're willing to
do and something below impact, But Yeah. That that acknowledges
the people that are there. Mhmm. And, you know, Zoom has the
capability. Right? I don't know which The format or what the
format is, with regards to, like, the streaming options, of your
church. And I'm I'm I would really be interested didn't have the
conversation too with our own, ministry. With
Zoom, you have the breakout options. Right? You have the breakout rooms that are
available. I would love to see something developed like
that, in the online community for churches so
that immediately, as you have the People online
in the service, they could have the option to go to a breakout room
on the backside of that where you you have maybe 2 or 3 people that
are in those rooms that can interact with them,
more a face to face. You know? Because as we know, the online
stream, one of the the whole backs with that is that you can either type
Or sit silently. Right? I mean, we always don't know the face to
go with the the user that's watching. But if we could
establish Some kind of way. Again, if the goal is community, it's
relationship for the people to go and have the option to go
into a breakout room. Say they're they're asking for
prayer or saying they're wanting more information about how to connect to the
church or there's a Specific thing, and you label your breakout
rooms and you prepare your people in those breakout rooms and say,
at the end of your time, you're You're saying, hey. We're so thankful that you've
joined us today. If you would like more information, we actually have breakout rooms that
are prepared, with people that would love to speak with you more. And here
are some of the breakout room options. And if you would just choose one of
these options and then go to this breakout room, we would love to take the
next step with you and continue to connect with you and figure out How
we can best minister to you. You know? So I I think
that's, I think that's important. And going back to your your
thoughts in regards to, you
know, a lot of the decisions being made. Let's just stream,
or let's not, really push as much
of our focus towards connecting with, you know, the online community
and in that kind of capacity. At that point in time, I think
that a lot of the justification in our thinking was
there's fatigue here. Because the entire world, you were
living on, you know, Zoom. You were living on all these
platforms 100% of the time. And so the thought was, Well, people
are tired. You know? They're tired of of doing this over and over
and because this is their only avenue. So it made sense
for us not to follow through in those decisions because it was
exhausting. You know? It was exhausting for the people, and the last thing that
you would hear people say is, I I don't wanna be on 1 more, you
know, Zoom call. I don't wanna be on 1 more video call.
However, I think that we've progressed enough
of, past that to where now this is
a normal part of our culture. And
it's not like it's a 247 thing like it was during the
pandemic. Now it's an intentionality thing. Right? And so
I think that we need to go back to that conversation again and
ask the question. Now that we've crossed that bridge,
Is this something that we need to reexamine? Is this a
conversation that we need to have again? And I
think my opinion is is that there's some real benefit to
this, for churches that we've not yet scratched the surface on,
from, you know, a large perspective. So I I think it's definitely
worth the conversation. Well and culturally too, I mean,
just Businesses, you know, the office space
thing. People aren't going back to the offices. People aren't going, you
know, back into the rows in churches. Like, it There's been a
shift to staying at home and doing things
online, whether yeah. I mean, obviously, That was because of COVID,
but also, you know, yeah, the Internet infrastructure
has gotten better in recent years, so it's enabled those kind of things. Mhmm.
And there's not a need to drive 2 hours down
into downtown Atlanta to sit in a cubicle anymore. Yeah.
Yeah. And people are just rejecting that. Cloud. I agree
100%. I think as we're looking at the upcoming generations that are
completing college, I think that with a lot of them, that is the expectation aspect
is they're looking for opportunities in the workplace where
they can work remotely. Why not? Because that's been a major part of
their educational experience on the back end of things. Right? And
so I think that that's, it's an important conversation. I think that some people
would go, And if they were listening to this today, some people, I think, would
think would say, well, this is an old conversation or this is an old
point. Yes. It is an older idea, and it's an
older concept because here we are on the backside of the pandemic.
However, I think that my challenge to that
thought would be this. As
a society, as a people, as a culture, aspect. We
tend to drift towards what is comfortable,
and we cannot allow ourselves to drift
towards what is comfortable with especially when it comes to the
advancement of the gospel. Churches
to continue to lead, and they have to continue to
step out and, be willing
to try things that may or may not go
well. We cannot fall back into the practice of
this is our set worship time. This is our set worship stream,
and this is good. We're firing on our cylinders. We've got a
great attendance out there with our web presence, You know, and
stop the conversation. I think that we have to continue to
ask the question of ourselves as leaders, So is this all there
is? Is there another step? Is there
additional things that we can do to
continue to push this forward? You know, I think that's I think that's one
of the things that in leadership that we struggle with sometimes. I think that
we just, You know, think about what's happening from
Sunday to Sunday or from day to day, and we have to
take that time to step back And drain and
ask god what the vision is, you know, and and
reexamine the resources. And, I mean, a long time ago, Rick
Warren, You know, his whole simple church strategy to where,
churches were listing every ministry of the church on the whiteboard and then trying to
figure out what items and what ministries continue to support the
the overall direct direction and philosophy in the DNA of the church.
Great concept. We need to go back
to that. We need to have those conversations again periodically in the church as leaders,
and we need to ask ourselves the questions again. Alright. So now
here we are on the backside of the pandemic. We've made these adjustments with
regards to our church ministries. Now what is it that we need to do to
continue to move forward with our reach and with
our ministries and and how do we, how do we continue to
share the gospel with these tools rather than just going, oh, yeah.
Okay. This is what's working. It's working great. You know? If it's not
broken, let's not fix it. Yes. That to some degree,
but we have to constantly be moving.
Complacency, I don't think, is an option with regards to the gospel
and the the aim and the direction of the church. So Well and
then, I mean, if you look from, you know, the 1st century to now, I
mean, so much has changed. So why would you expect that it would
stay the same? Right. But, but, unfortunately, we
do. I mean, I mean, unfortunately, we do. Right? I
think that that's where the church really loses our
momentum. We really lose our influence when we don't
continue to move and to
explore those ways to promote the gospel. The secular
world is doing it. You know? And it's not like we've
got to be like the secular world, but we certainly don't want to
be, we we don't want to be,
dismissive to the tools and the resources that are available.
We wanna embrace those things, and we wanna figure out how we can utilize
those for the gospel, for sure. Production wise, the church, you
know, embracing the, you know, video, you know,
all the the all the production gear. Like, Eventually, the church, hey.
We can do this, and we can reach way more. We can get more people
in a room because we have speakers, because we have microphones
as opposed to and some would argue that it's a good thing, bad thing. I
think it's a good thing because that's my job. But Yeah. Absolutely. You
know? Yeah. And and I think that that's a conversation. I mean,
let's face it. Alright? In church ministries, again,
I think that we get focused on what needs to take place in between
the Sunday to the Sunday. And in addition to those
things, ministry is people. So I think that we
focus on how we minister to the people as well.
And when we think about our responsibilities as leaders in totality,
That's the majority of our time. It's Sunday to Sunday what has to
happen operationally, and then it's the people in the ministry and what we need to
do to fulfill the needs, and best prepare and minister
to the people. But, again, I think
this this is more of a leadership issue.
We have to intentionally carve out the time to
be before the lord and to ask him what he wants and
to dream. And if we do not take the time to dream,
then we find ourselves where we are and just continuing
to do and to maintain every
single week, but we cannot let ourselves fall into that
pattern. We have to continue to push. We have to continue to seek after
what new opportunities might be out there. We have to continue to
be creative, and we have to be okay with trying it
and Potentially failing at it. Right? I mean Yeah. I
was telling a good friend of mine this past week. I was telling a good
friend of mine this past week. I said, You know, as a parent, and I
know that you all identify with this as well, as a parent, when our child
takes the 1st step, you're like, oh, that's awesome. You know? And
it's like the best thing. And then they may take 1 or 2 steps, and
they fall. And you know what we still do? Oh, it's alright. It's alright.
You're gonna get back up again. But we quickly forget that
when it comes to adulthood and when it comes to trying
things for the first time. We should constantly, as leaders, be
looking at our peers and even encouraging ourselves going, okay.
I'm gonna take a couple of steps. I might fall. But here's the deal.
It's okay. We're gonna celebrate it both ways. We're celebrating the
taking of the steps. We're celebrating the moment that that that a
falling is taking place. And then we're encouraging people, get back
up, and let's take more steps. You know? And I think
we do have more of that, especially inside the
church. Yeah. I've always said I would rather have tried
than to have just had this idea and not any done
anything with it. You You know, just rattles around in your brain. But, alright, well,
let's be great. Let's let's try it. And you know what? If it if, you
know, if if I didn't see something and it was like, oh, well, Can't
do it. Okay. Well, I'm glad I found that out. And
now maybe I can pivot with that idea. Maybe
through the process, I found Something else that we can
try, and we can go go from there. That's right.
Yeah. Absolutely. I agree with that. I like I love what you said about
well, I mean, I think we We all know this. We just don't put words
to it, but ministry is people. And, you know, in church
services, it takes a lot of people to Playing the
band, to do the the audio and the video and stuff like
that. What are some ways that you guys at First Brunswick are
ministering to those people? On those people that are
helping you week to week. Sure. I think it's a great question, and I think
it's an important question that we all need to consider. When you and when
you're in that pastoring role, I think that your your people
have to know that you're their biggest support. You're their biggest cheerleader.
You're their biggest encourager. Again, I think if we go back to Ephesians 4
and we talk about the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry,
I think that in any leadership position, there's a
pastoral aspect to that, and you have to be
constantly Equipping people and loving people
and discipling people. And if they
don't think that you care, Then
there's not going to be the level of investment in the ministry that
I think the the lord deserves. I mean, he deserves our
best. Right? So as the people are serving in our ministry
areas, we've got to we've got to step back away from it again
as leaders, and we have to acknowledge these people are not here for me.
They're not here for me. They're here because god has
stirred in their heart this Particular position
aligns with a passion or something that they feel is important or
something that they feel like they can do well, And it's
their area of contribution to not only serve the church,
but it's also their aspect of worship. Right?
And so I think I think that if we are not careful, we
can get caught into that thinking of, well, these people are here for me. They're
here to serve, for me, with me, in my
ministry, in in my ministry. And I think that we
have to Again, I think that we have to put it in the right
perspective, and we have to realize that this this is God's people,
and these people are here for God to serve
him, and it just so happens to be in an area where
god has called me to be as the over shepherd of the
people. And it's my responsibility to be a good steward
of the people and their time and their resources and their
situations and at the same time, making sure
that I'm I'm fulfilling my responsibility to disciple them and to
equip them. Is it it it is a
thing, again, when we are caught up in
checking the boxes. Right? If we just check the
boxes, we miss that aspect. And so I think that,
I think that it's an important thing for us to love on our people that
way, to remember the things in that kind of perspective
and, you know, constantly
Not just get caught up in checking the boxes, pushing the buttons, you
know, and fulfilling the duties and the responsibilities. We we have to
remember, You know, these people are here, and none
of us have arrived to that place of perfection yet. All of us
are all on our own individual journeys with the lord,
and there are seasons that come with that. There are good seasons. There are
bad seasons. A good friend, I'd heard him recently
say, If you're not in a battle,
you're going into a battle, or you're coming out of a battle. You
know? And so I think that's important to remember as that people are
around us. We're all in one of those seasons for
sure. Well and and I know that It doesn't
necessarily take a lot of time to make sure that that person
is seen and acknowledged. I do my best to write thank you notes.
You know, on Sunday mornings, I'll take a note of, like, oh, hey.
That was great. Write a few names down, and then during the week, I'll write
them a thank you note. And almost Every
time the next time I see him, they're like, oh my gosh. Thank you. And
I'm like, well, you I mean, no. No. Thank you. Like, I'm glad I had
to write that thank you note because, like, we wouldn't have had, you know, graphics
on the screen if you weren't here last week. That's right. You know? Like, thank
you for for for doing that or Or whatever it is, like and
that's not to say that I'm doing everything right. I'm just, you
know, just do the small things is like, hey. Just like,
thanks for being here Sunday. Like, thanks for being here at 6:40 and staying
for both services. And I think it's so small things, Erin, that make the
difference for sure. Another element that we've, started
utilizing with our our worship teams even is as we
finish walking through with our Sound check with and
making sure that everything is good from the technical aspect prior to the worship
services. We've started bringing the team together in a big
on the platform itself. And and just taking a
moment to be reminded that we're not here to
promote ourselves this morning. The microphone
is not more important than the message that we have to share. Correct.
Yeah. Absolutely. The the talent is not more
important than the god which we're exalting this
morning. You know? And and then to remember,
you know, we're here because god's given us these talents, and we're
using these talents to serve him. And then
remembering the fact that it will be someone's 1st time in the
room, and it just might be that that Person who's
there for the very first time doesn't know the Lord. And so
we have to keep all of those things in the right perspective, You know? And
and reminding one another that it's not about
us. This is not about our own elevation. This is about
elevation of the lord. And then at the backside of that before we
begin to pray, like you said, thanking them.
Just thanking them for be thanking them for being here on time.
Right? Being here on time and being when they did get
there, thanking them for being prepared. You know?
And then just asking them that final question before the
beginning of the work that come together. Now I'm thanking you for preparing your
heart to fulfill god's call in your life and being here
in this spot this morning. You know? I think all of those
things are are huge, huge things,
that the people that our people need to hear.
Myself included, I have leadership that when they Tell me those kinds of
things. It's an encouragement to me, you know, in in what I
do. And so I certainly wanna pass that along and encourage, of the people who
serve as a part of our worship teams and production teams as well. So That's
great. Now correct me if I'm wrong.
Your your your worship team or worship band, I know you all have a
choir too. All volunteer. Yes? It's all
volunteer. That's right. Volunteer. How does that how does
that play into Your
vision and your thought process when you're planning stuff because,
you know, at at in Northpointe, we're we're finding,
we're they're They're paid musicians. So,
you know, we can ask them to do
x or Why or show up for midweek rehearsal or stuff like that?
But, how how does that differ with completely
volunteer Lead. On stage, off stage. I think it's
another really really good question, and I think that that is what you
would find in a lot of churches in America is that most People that
are serving in their churches, are volunteer, and even in
a lot of aspect pastoral aspects are volunteer or
bivocational. And so I think, again,
going back to what I mentioned before, the people
are not there for me. They are
there because God has stirred in their hearts and
given them these talents, and they're using them for the lord,
Making sure that I keep that perspective in front of them so that
we keep everything in the right focus. But here's
what that allows me to do as a pastor. Again, going back to what I
mentioned before with regards to equipping the people for the work of the ministry.
This is where I'm able to say, I know that you're here because god has
called you here. I know that that you're being obedient to be here and
to serve. And so one of the things I want to encourage
you to do is to consider the talents that god has given you.
God's not asking you to offer him perfection,
But what god is asking you to do is to give him your best.
And so what we want to do as a part of a team
that's made up of volunteers as we all want to be able to give
him our best. And that looks different on a
subjective level for each individual person. Right?
So you just you encourage them in those kinds of ways to
constantly be giving their best to the lord. Not to
me. I don't I mean, yeah. Does it make me happy when I see
you giving your best? Yeah. It does. But that's not the end goal.
The end goal is your offering of worship to the lord through the
talents that he's given to you. And why would you not want to give him
your best? You know, I think that's a hard issue if you can walk
away from that question and go, oh, no. I just didn't have time to do
it this week, or I'm so sorry. You know, I I I
just well, don't apologize to me. Your offering is not to me.
You're not here for me. You're here for the lord. And and so I think
at the end of the day, when you're you're giving that offering back to
him, that's where that's where the offering of
praise. I think you can go to scripture with with Samuel.
Samuel said it with the the threshing floor and, with
his offering of, back to the lord. He said, How can
I sacrifice that which cost me nothing?
You know what I'm saying? And so when it comes to worship from a volunteer
level, We know they have full time jobs. We
know they have families. We know they have responsibilities.
We know that life is happening to those people, And
we know when they're in a volunteer capacity under
our leadership, they're having to make this sacrifice. They're
having to carve out the time to be able to
prepare themselves to come and lead. Right?
And We we have to acknowledge that.
But, again, it's the encouragement from us to
the people to give their best, you know,
and to to to use that as their
aspect of worship to the lord. And I've often said this.
If, From a volunteer aspect, if the people
who are serving in my ministry, if it starts to
feel like a job to them, Something's
wrong. Something is wrong when we walk into god's
house and we feel like we're having to perform a
job. We come
into the lord's house to worship, and it has
to always be in that perspective. This is
my act of worship unto the lord. This is my sacrifice of
worship to the lord and not be framed as
These are my responsibilities as a part of the position.
You know? These we have to understand that
It's our sacrifice to the lord. You know? And and honestly,
Aaron, that should be paid or unpaid in my opinion. Yeah. Because I
was just thinking about that. Yeah. I think if the heart if the heart is
not in the right position from the beginning, then the the
the product will not be from the right place in the end.
Right? And so paid or unpaid, the
heart has to be in the right spot because John teaches us
that the lord thinks after those who are worshiping him in spirit and
in truth, and you can't qualify for what it is that the
lord is even looking for If the heart is not in the right position to
begin with. And I think that's our I think that's our evaluation
point. I think that's our check-in our heart,
as as we're getting ready to step our feet onto the
platform to, you know, to to be in our positions, whatever it is
whatever capacity it is for that morning. With all that
being said, and it's great. Love that. What what's the,
like, the hard conversation like or the
or Like, hey. Maybe singing on
stage is not a good fit for you because you can't sing?
Like, What what what's that look like or, like,
lyrics on the screens? They're always late. We can't get them on
time. Mhmm. Like, what what does that look like for
for that without with that in mind. Yeah. And the hard conversations, man,
I don't think any of us enjoy that, but I think that is It's
a necessity, again, from a leadership perspective.
And my conversations, I've always try well, what I
have learned is, Number 1, you have to figure out what the
perception of the individual is. Right? If I'm going into a
situation and I I know that I'm going to
have to end up having a hard conversation. I think that one of the
things that I have to remember is The only perception that I can actually
control is mine. And the response that I
the response I can only control is mine.
So before I can even begin to have a hard conversation with someone who
may not be, executing at the level that needs to be
executed, I I have to figure out what their perception is. Because
what the expectation is? Yeah. Or or what the what their perception and the
expectation is. Right? Okay. Like, I need to know what they think. So
my conversations will usually start, like this. Man, I'm so glad that
you were here this morning. You know, so thankful that you're a part of
what we're doing. How did you think this morning went? How
did how did you feel, like, this morning? Like, did you feel like all of
the, the the lyrics We're on the screens at the appropriate times, or did you
feel like all the lighting cues hit the way that you wanted them to? Or
did you feel like if you were singing that song, did you feel like that
did That feel good, you know, as you were singing and
worshiping the lord this morning. Like, talk talk to me about that. Let me know
let me know what you're thinking. And then based upon what
the individual's thinking, that then lets me know as a
leader what I can say next. Right? Because
it's not always a conversation. Those hard conversations don't
always go from a to z in one sitting.
Right? So it has to be a it has to be a progression. So
you may only be able to go from a to c in your 1st
conversation. And then as a leader, you have to think, okay. If I can
get this far and help them understand these expectations
here in these small increments, then let's stop, let's
evaluate, and then you come back again. And you ask some of the
same questions. Tell me about it. Where did you How did you think this went?
And then it lets you take the next step. Now you can have the conversation
from d to f. Right? And and
then so on and so forth. Yes. If you need to. If you
need to, they may self correct, which is What we
want. Right? Right. I mean, having those opportunities to where those things can be
situated. So I I think that, Yeah. I think that
if, again, in those hard conversations, I think we have to
have them in small increments. I think that we need to have
them the hard conversations is always the end goal of the
hard conversation is always to help the individual
or help the whole. And so coming in with critical
critical feedback in a negative way is not
ever going to truly help the individual in the in the
best way. Because what's really gonna wind up happening is they're gonna get
frustrated, they're gonna get mad at you, is they're gonna get upset with you, and
they're gonna quit. And then how have you equipped
that saint for the work of the ministry? You know? And,
again, you know, if you're having this conversation, you're you're
at pqrs. You know? You're on down
in the conversation. I think that at that point,
you can say I've done everything that I can to help the individual,
and then you can ask of question, or then you can make the statement. You
know what? You've been working really, really hard, and I
appreciate that so very much. All of, the progress and all the things
that have been made, you know, with regards to the things that are happening with,
part of our team on Sunday morning. And I I can't tell you how
much that means to me. And I love the conversations that we're we're being
able to have together and just how we've grown closer together as friends,
you know, through this process. But I I just need to be honest, and I
need to tell you, it's maybe it's that point to where we need to look
at how we can utilize other talents and other gifts
and other skill sets that you may have in another position.
And I cannot tell you again how much I've appreciated your
dedication And your faithfulness to be here as a part of what the
team is trying to achieve together, maybe we just need to switch some seats
around for you because I know that your heart is in the right place, And
the heart is what matters the most. Right? So I want to be,
I wanna be a good steward of the skills that God has given you and
the talents that God has given you. So, Les, Are you willing to
to take some steps with me and to try out some different chairs or to
try out some different responsibilities? You know? Again, It's never to hurt the
people. It's never to tear them down. It's always to build them up, and it's
always to encourage them because we're all on the same team together.
These are my brothers and sisters in Christ, and we're all
in this giant army together. And the last thing I wanna
do is shoot somebody, You know, that's on
my team or that's a part of the army, that that got us to send
them together. So I think this is important, you know, to encourage In those
hard conversations like that, and to remember, it's all from
a standpoint of equipping. And these things are all from
A a position of love and support and encouragement and,
just trying to to help as best as you can.
And, again, as a leader, I think that's the call. I
think that's the responsibility. I and I think we have to
have those conversations, in order to be
fulfilling the call that god has for us in in those aspects. So
Yeah. That that definitely goes into the sort of the conversation of
people over product, Which I know, you know, production
guys, you know and, well, yeah, I think everybody in
church has to Walk that line of
we wanna put out a really good product,
but it can't be over the people that are helping us do that.
Yeah. It's just Like Yeah. Cannot be. Cannot be at the sacrifice of
the person. No. It cannot. That's right. That's right.
And and I know, you know, churches deal with that all the time.
Some churches do it better than others. Some churches Don't even have that
conversation. And I think that that might be some of the
problem with the modern
Evangelical church or or or maybe just the big prominent ones
is that it it seems to be product over
people. And, you
know, it it's it's frustrating because
churches get lumped into it just as a whole, and you're like, wait. We don't
do that. Mhmm. But it's the perception of everybody
outside that it's like, oh, you just wanna do this, and you don't care how
you do it. You just need all this volunteer help, Then you just use your
people, and you're like, no. No. We treat our
volunteers really well. And, so,
yeah, it's just one of those things where it's like yeah. No. We are people
over product all the time. Right. Yeah. For sure. Again, because
ministry is people. It has to be that way. Yeah. And the cool
thing is the cool thing, Aaron, you you and I both know this.
As long as the As long as the people are the focus, as long
as the as the investment is being made, the discipleship is in place, the
relationships are being formed, The the the
heart is in the right place, then the the
the payoff on the long term is
an elevated ministry. Right? It's not
an over it's not an overnight change.
We we get caught in,
this thinking that if this person can't do it, okay, we gotta
get rid of this person so that we can find the person that can. You
know? And then we and then we build we build the
ministry on All the capable people that
can do the positions from the beginning. Right?
And so that makes it easier for us to, you know,
developing to execute and to make the product.
But how have you discipled?
How have you equipped? You know? Have you involved people
that want to be involved in your church? Right. Absolutely. How Yeah. How
is this how is this Brother or sister in Christ going to
look back you look back over the course of their life or their service
in the church with you as their pastor and say,
Wow. Thank you so much for investing and discipling
and being patient with me and teaching me and and
helping grow Me and my walk with the lord and the talents, how
can they have those things to say about us
if we're always just looking for the best qualified person to sit in
the chair. You know? And I and I think that's
that's a huge part of of you know, I think that's something that we as
leaders have to really stop and think about more. Well, in in whatever
interaction they've had is gonna play an impact on whether they recommend
a friend or a family member come try out that church. Like, Absolutely.
If they like, oh, I tried to volunteer there and, like,
you know, I messed up and then they asked me not to come back. Like,
they're not gonna Tell their family and friends that
they should go to that church. And, I mean, that
and that and that's just Yeah. It's sad, and
it really shouldn't happen. And things
happen. I I understand that. Sometimes there's interactions that
are unfortunate and probably nothing you can do about it,
but, you know, you should at least do your best to have Right.
Positive and helpful conversations with all the people that are you
interact with the church. Right. Well and again, you know, you
mentioned earlier, we're we're in a season of interim, with regards to our
production team at our church. And we we have,
we have some volunteers that have been prepared well,
even, from the departure of our production Director. He did
a good job of preparing his team. And
I'm I'm very encouraging of those who have stepped
up To not hold everything, you
know, and not keep a grasp on everything just because, you
know, the expectation is We wanna execute how it has
been in the past. Well, yes, we do. But, also,
we have to extend the grace for those moments where
it isn't. And then we have to give people the opportunities
to learn and to grow. And so
in order to do that, instead of holding everything tight, you really have to
let it go, and encourage people, in their own
growth. So I I'm very proud of the team. It's just even in
the short window that we've already experienced as part of the interim,
but It's hard to encourage people when,
they they feel the pressure. Even as a volunteer, they feel the
pressure, and they just they think, okay. If I can just keep
it, then I can make sure. But, Again,
it's it's about more than just 1 individual, so it's it's constantly
encouraging. It's alright. We're gonna let that go. We're gonna delegate this
here. We're gonna delegate this here. We're gonna Show this person this. We're gonna spend
some time here. And, again, the team as a whole,
is stronger and receives the benefit. And, ultimately, the church Sees the benefit
and the advancement of the gospel is is is better,
because of the level of the whole has has been raised. So
Well, what are the conversations been like, you know, finding a replacement?
Like, I know, this was the
first production director that Brunswick 1st Brunswick had
had. So, like,
Do you think that leadership found it to be a a positive thing
or are you are you having to sort of try to fight for that
role again or, because, I mean, you know,
production rules sometimes, depending on the church,
can feel as needed. Like, I don't think we're I think we're
good. No. I don't know. Yeah. I don't think that we're I think that we're
in a very good position. I think that our leadership is very
supportive, of the role in our church. And I think that a
large part of that is contributed to the success, the
success of Colby during his tenure there and showing the
impact that that position, can have,
towards the the overall
goal of the church to advance the gospel. I think he did a very good
job at at that. And so, No. I don't feel like I'm
having to fight again for that position. I think that there is,
I think that there's a realization and that there is a
understanding That is a huge need, for our
church and what it is that we're trying to achieve, here.
I think as far as, the search goes, I think that that's one of the
things that we that we're currently walking through and trying
to make sure that we're not asking too much of 1 individual.
It always makes me laugh, you know, when I'm looking at all of these job
responsibilities and all of these different places and trying to
Together, a a feel for where positions are developing, and I'm like,
my goodness gracious. You've got a piece of paper filled with
responsibilities, and there's no way. There's no way that you can set up an
individual to be successful with everything that's listed
here as a part of this. I think that sometimes,
We think that in order to justify the financial aspect of the
position, then we have to fill up this long list of things, you
know, and That's just not true. You know?
Someone has has said that somewhere, and and that's what has happened as a
part of that. But I think that Instead of trying to major on all
of those minors with regards to job positions that we're trying to fill in the
church, we need to go back and major on the majors. And we need to
understand that in order for something to be done well, it has
to be very specific task, and then those very specific
tasks have to be done at that level of
excellence. And so you you've got to set up the individual in that kind of
way. So that's where I think that we are in the process is is
figuring out how not to create a unicorn
position. We want to be very intentional
And finding the skill set that is needed in
that chair in order for the success to continue.
Yeah. What do you think that those those characteristics are
for, like, a like, this is the person
that I'm looking for? Or, I mean, just in general, not not specifically
for 1st Brunswick or whatever. Like,
what are what are you as because you're,
over the music and sort of production, like right? Yeah. Well, what
does that person look like? Well, I think the conversation I think
the conversation can't start with what the person can do.
I think that this the conversation has to start with where is the
heart of this individual. Where
what is their understanding of a director
position in the church with regards to ministry?
What is their understanding of the call of god in their
life in this capacity in the church?
I think that's where the conversation has to begin. And I think that
the individual has to be qualified there first
before you can even get to what it is that the individual needs
to do. Does that make sense? So the heart's gotta be in the right the
heart has to be in the right position. And then, you know, once it's
determined, hey. This this person is tracking. You know, they they
match and they're aligning with the DNA and Our pastor's message for our church
and for our people and its alignment with that kind of role within the
church, then you begin to have the conversation, and you say
You just asked the question. What are you passionate about?
I think that's where it has to start. Right? I think that,
again, I think this is backwards, but I think that a lot of this
has to be backwards because you see the mistake being made over and
over and over. A person comes into a position, and they think that there's a
cookie cutter approach to solutions for all the problems that they have.
You know? And I don't think that that's the way to do
it. I think that you have to have the conversation from
the place of what is it you're passionate about, What
is it that god is calling you to do? And you have to
have that conversation. I think that's as
how the process should go when looking to fill the positions in the
church. And then when you finish having the conversation with the individual about
what they're passionate about, Then you take those answers
and you go, okay. What is it that our church is passionate about in
this position? And you say, alright. Where's the similarity?
Right. Because if you hire a person whose passions are not in
alignment with what the passions are of your church, You're
setting yourself up for failure because the passions are not
aligning. Right? So I think that we we have to approach it
from that standpoint and making sure that as we're having the
conversation, we're not sitting here having an interview based
upon the list of things in the job description. We
should be having an interview based upon what it is that the
passions are of the person and how that is helping
them answer the call of god in their life. And
then we have to make sure that that's in alignment with
where the church is going, where god is calling the church, where the pastor for
us presenting the vision, and and then we can continue
to move forward, in that process if all of those things are
aligning. It's We we get forced into the idea
because there's an empty chair. We go, oh, man. We just gotta get this chair
filled. We just we just gotta put this person in this seat. You know, we
gotta we gotta have this stuff done. You know? But, again,
it's a it's a long game. It's not a short game. The short
game will get you in trouble. It's the long game
that matters. And so we we have to make sure, again,
the heart, the passions, then the skills,
and then making sure that everything is aligned from there. Are you sort of
making more of an argument for almost like Like,
production pastor, kinda. Like, you want this I mean, not I
mean, maybe not necessarily seminary trained, but, you know, like
Well, there. I don't know if it's, I don't know if it I don't know
if it's production pastor, Aaron, but I do think
I do think that we have to all stop and remember that we're all called
to be ministers of the gospel. And if you
wanna call it a a production director,
a a production director whose responsibility
is to oversee the production ministry,
I think that that's good. I think I I could go along with that
because, again, it's a ministerial aspect. This is the separation.
I this is where you see in churches, you you see churches that
operate like a business, right, or you can see
churches that operate as a ministry. And I think this is the
distinction in between the 2. A church that operates like a business is
literally gonna go back to their interview process, and they're going to interview based to
fill position based upon what the job description is because that's
what a secular business does. But a
church is ministry focused. And in order to
be ministry focused and operate as a ministry, they have to figure
out what the call of god is. They had to figure out what the call
of god is for the church, what the call of god is for the person,
and they have to ask their questions Based upon the person's
heart for the lord, for the people, for the
ministry, and they can't. You you just you
can't interview based upon a job description. It's gotta be based
upon what the ministry call is. That's where I
think that you see the 2 breakdown in in the ways that
churches operate. You know? Are we gonna be ministry
focused, Are we gonna be business focused? You know? And and I
think that, unfortunately, more often than not, you find in in
Especially in larger churches, you find more of that business mentality, which I'm
not saying I'm not necessarily saying it's a bad thing. I think that there's
elements of that that need to be enforced. But if the
gospel is not the focus, I think that is the wrong target,
inside the church with regards to an operation philosophy. When
you're thinking about a church that operates like a business and
then people that are on staff at that church are
looking at, like, a ministry, Then you might be trying to find that
unicorn person that is doing what you're doing, but then
leadership might be trying to find someone that can just execute.
That's true. Whatever that thing is. Yeah. It's interesting. I
yeah. That that's that's some really good things to think about, because
I I definitely I I definitely think that it that
person needs to do both. And then and I that might be a
unicorn person To be effective. Well and and 2, like, I mean,
production director or production for the church
has only been around for 30 years maybe? Maybe. Yeah.
Maybe. Yeah. So we might the churches might
be figuring out what that looks like. Yeah. It's really interesting. I like I I
mean, I I like that because, you know, on a Sunday morning, depending on the
size of your church, like, you might be mostly dealing with
people. And the I mean, it just goes back to the rest of our conversation.
It's just it's people focused. Even though, yeah, the camera might not turn
on or microphone's having some issues, most of the time, it's
Ministering to people. Yeah. I've yeah. That's really cool. I've never thought about it
that way. I agree. But that's that's super good. Is there anything else that you
you feel, you wanna Talk about in regards to, like, church
service production, those kind of things, or reiterate?
I I just I I would just go back I can just, reiterate that
the position of the heart has got to be we have to have our hearts
in the right place. And I understand in 27 years in ministry,
There's a lot of pressure. There's a lot of expectation, and
I I have to fight against that as well
And making sure that, yeah, my heart
is in the right place before I step my foot on the platform
And before I can even encourage someone else in the position
of their heart to to look in their heart, I I have to be at
that place first. That takes my own personal time
in the word and in prayer and seeking after god,
and I have to make sure that I'm holding my accountable
in that first before I can hold other people accountable to
that. So, and, again, I think these things are
transferable Transferable concepts,
across the board with regards to ministry. So Well, can I
can I ask what you do? If
that's not if that's not if it's too personal, please. No. Yeah. Like,
what what if I mean, you're walking in on a Sunday morning.
Are you listening to the music? Are you preparing yourself?
Or is it a day to day to day thing,
Obviously. But, like, Sunday mornings are going in. Mhmm. Is
there something that you specifically do to before you step onto that platform?
Mhmm. Yes. Absolutely. So I'm I'm always on the drive
to our church campus. I'm I'm always listening to, the
music. And as I'm listening to the music, I'm in prayer,
and I'm asking God to, help make
sure, that I'm doing my best, to,
to lead the people in the direction, that we're trying to go for
that morning. I'm praying. I'm asking the lord to to help
everything go okay and, to help me in in the
moments even when things may not be going okay to always
you know, it's as as best as I can, with with
grace and with love. So I'm I'm in prayer over those things
as I'm as I'm driving, you know, I'm listening to the music, and then
I'm praying for the lost as I'm on the way. I'm like, god, I know
that there's gonna be somewhere in this room someone in this room today that doesn't
know you. And my prayer is ultimately that they would come to know you
today. So that's a huge part of the process on my
drive, to the church campus. And then as I'm
coming in the doors of the building, you know, obviously, I know
it's early, and I and I know people are being asked to be there at
early of times. And so I'm trying to be encouraging and
very thankful, to the people. So a lot of those things
are what's happening just to prepare my heart before I'm even there.
Again, I think that's a a huge part of the
responsibility in the pastoral role. It's just to make sure my
heart is good, in the right place and that
I'm ministering to the people from the moment that I get there
and the 1st person arrives on the campus. So No. That's
great. I I have another question if you've got time Yeah. That I just
thought of. You know, you mentioned and I think we all think about this. The
the person maybe new first time in your
church. What what is your what is your thinking, you know,
balancing the Person that maybe has never come to church
before versus the person that's heard this song
7 times already. What what's your what's your
thinking and your are you trying to find a balance when you're planning songs for
a service or planning what your service looks like? Or
Well, what's that look like for you? Well, I think that there's several different
approaches obviously to that. I think that at the end of
the day, whether it's something that's familiar to a person that's been there
several times or where there is something that's unfamiliar to a person
that's never been there. I think that that's a I think that's a
secondary thought, with regards
to picking music or or experiences like that. I think that the
the primary Thought is, is
this real? Is this authentic? Is
this authentic? Is this Am
I the same on the platform as I am off the platform? Is
this an extension of my spiritual journey? You know? Is this
real? Am I real in in my response to the lord.
And I think if the answer to that question is yes,
then I don't really think it matters whether a person has heard A song
a 100 times or one time because I think the
authenticity of the individual and of the team is what
communicates, to the person more
than the song choice, more than the programming aspect. I
think people want real. What what kind
of, like is I mean,
we we throw the we we we use those words real, authentic
A lot. Like, authenticity and, well, I
understand that's like what would be something that you would do that
You wouldn't feel authentic doing. Like, what what does that
look like tangibly? Sure. Well, I think that we
can Go we can see that found in conversations, in the
church with regards to the expression of worship. From
a presentation aspect, I think
that, yes, there is an expression of worship, and there
are times where expression of worship is, You know, the individual
may express that with lifting hands. There may
be a time toward the expression of worship. The individual
may, be moved emotionally, to the
to to cry or to kneel. And I
think that that is where the is shown.
And I think if the motivations there in the heart
is that, well, I need to raise my hands just so that I'm active of
in front of the people, you know, and that I'm I'm
trying to, evoke a
response from them. So I'm going to jump up and down on the
platform because I feel like that is the the that
is the expectation in order to Reached that level
of emotional hype, I guess, would be
the word there. To see what you're saying. My then my motivations and my
heart is not authentic, And it's not real because I'm
trying to meet the expectation of what I think
is expected or the thing that is expected from me
in this. And I think people can see through that
super, super quick. You know? Okay. Even if it's a a
way to Get people to engage?
Ravi, I'm not I'm not necessarily saying that they should be jumping around on stage
or raising their hands, but, like, Is there a spectrum
of performance to authenticity to try to get people to
engage with the music? I don't know if that makes sense.
I disagree with you, like, deep. Like, well
and I agree with you, like, raising hands, like, If if I you know, if
when not if. When I'm in the, you know, the church
service and if I raise my hands, like,
That is not authentic. Like, if you see me raising my hands, it's probably because
I'm hurt or I need to get out, you know, during a worship
service because it's not gonna happen. I did not grow up doing that kind of
thing. So I understand I understand that aspect. Like, yeah,
absolutely. Like, if you're just doing it, you know, like,
oh, you know, bridge to, I'm gonna raise my hands.
Yeah. Totally. But, like, as worship leaders,
you know, or or or musicians on stage, what kind of responsibility
is there to have your congregation engage with you?
Is it your responsibility to get people to engage well, and it's
not engaged with you, and that's where I think we met get them,
get it mixed up too. It is my responsibility to engage
with people. It is the worship leader's responsibility to engage with
people, but it is not the responsibility of the worship leader
to make the person worship. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, I Yeah. So I want to do my
best to engage with the individuals in the presentation
of the worship unto the lord. So
Yes. But in that presentation and in that effort
to engage with them, I don't want to feel like
I'm performing. I don't want to feel like I'm
I'm I'm doing something because I
feel like it's a An
expectation of a performance. I want I want to
engage with them because my my mannerisms, my
expression of worship, I want to engage with
them through just the authenticity of my heart
as I'm telling god how awesome he is Or if the lyrics
of the song is telling how awesome he is to the people,
or if the lyrics of the song is more testimonial And talking about an
experience that god's of of god's faithfulness through that. And this is
what I, often encourage of people in our
choir and in our worship ministry to consider. As you're
singing these lyrics, find your point of connection.
You know, you have to find a way to, for the lyrics to
connect with you in some kind of aspect in your
own walk with the lord So that as you're offering these lyrics
up, in worship to the lord or as you're singing
these lyrics over the people, There's an aspect of
connectivity with that. I think that's where the authenticity comes
from versus This is a song that we're gonna sing this
morning. Here are the notes that are on the page. Here are the parts. Here's
the chord progressions. Now let's sing it. You know? Because
then you get caught up in the technicalities and not in the
message that's trying to be conveyed and how,
Again, as I mentioned earlier with regards to my own preparation of
my heart before I can lead others. My heart has to be in the right
place before The team can lead
others. The heart has to be in the right position with regards to
the lyrics of the song and how they
exalt the lord, how, it might be
a a confessional thing with regards to A moment of sin that
they've dealt within their life, or it may be
a a moment of connectivity with regards to faithfulness and a
hard A hardship that they've walked through,
or it may be something that they've witnessed. But if there is
no connectivity there in between the heart of the
worshiper, they can't they can't authentically
engage. Does that make sense? So I know that's probably
a very long answer to your question with regards to that.
Yes. It is my responsibility as a worship leader and as a worship
pastor to engage with the people, but it is not my
responsibility to make them worship. That is their
responsibility unto the lord. I can't make them worship.
Yeah. Because I don't know how many times I've heard, you know, like, Oh, he
tried this new song, and nobody was singing. And it's like, okay.
Like, well and I I guess the question is, like,
Do you do you experience that? And and do you if if, like,
hey. Nobody is really well, I guess it goes into what you're saying. Like, the
the words are just not connecting with these people. So we're not gonna do it
anymore. Is that something that you you do? There have been times absolutely. There
have been times where we've tried the song, And there's been no connectivity with that.
It may have been something that connected with our team or with me or
something like that, but it didn't necessarily connect with the people in our church.
And do we throw it away after one time? Not necessarily. We may try it
again, but we may we we may have a different
tactic or a different approach to that Try to help make sure that we're
engaging or connecting. We may have we may share,
a personal aspect, or I may share a personal aspect in in my
journey that connects to the lyrics of the song that might
encourage the people to say, okay. Well, I can sing, you know, his pain
through this or his growth or his celebration through this. And, you know
what, there's a moment in my own life where I can connect with that as
well. So, yeah, I really wanna add when that lyric comes through, I wanna sing
that with all of my heart to the lord. So, again, it it just depends
it depends. Everything is subjective in that as, You know? And if you
do it a couple of times and there's con no connection,
then you gotta say, you put it to bed and move on.
Yeah. No. That's great. I love that. That's really cool. Josh,
thanks for talking. Yeah. It's just really cool, talking to
The different people, involved in church services from all the different churches.
Like, it's it's it's really cool to hear your perspective on things
and things to think about. Like, Yeah. Lot of things to think about after this
one. I like it. Well, lots of things, brother. There's always lots of things.
Believe me. You know me? I'm I I think I think
probably way too much about way too many things. There's
no telling. But yeah. No. I appreciate the opportunity, Aaron. It's always good talking to
you, my friend. We love you guys very, very much And appreciate everything that you're
doing in ministry to impact the kingdom as well. Thanks, Josh.
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