* Transcript: Mike McKenna: [00:00:00] I mean, as much as we're probably Idaho's biggest international destination for years are for sure, we're still small-town Idaho. As long as we can hold on to that, then we're going to keep attracting the right kind of people. Adam Stoker: [00:00:15] Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Destination Marketing Podcast. I'm your host, Adam Stoker. We are still here at iCourt in Lewiston, Idaho and we've had a lot of great sessions. And I've got some guests with me here that I'm excited to chat with. I've been to a lot of Idaho, but they are from a region that I have not yet explored. So I'm excited to learn more today. I first got with me, Mike McKenna. And Mike is with the Wood River Valley Chamber. Mike McKenna: [00:00:41] Yes, sir. Adam Stoker: [00:00:41] And I think I may have said it incorrectly. So, correct me there. Mike McKenna: [00:00:44] We're technically the Chamber of Hailey and the Wood River Valley. Adam Stoker: [00:00:46] Okay. Mike McKenna: [00:00:47] I cover most of Blaine County, Idaho. Adam Stoker: [00:00:50] Perfect. Okay. And then I've got Scott Fortner with us. And Scott, you're with Sun Valley. Scott Fortner: [00:00:54] Yeah, I'm the executive director of Visit Sun Valley, which kind of encompasses the destination marketing organization for the Wood River Valley. And we kind of see our role as anything from the craters of the moon, which maybe some people have or have not heard of before. All the way up to the Sawtooth Mountains in Stanley Idaho. Adam Stoker: [00:01:15] So guys, thanks for joining me today and like I said, you're from a part of Idaho that I haven't really explored. So I'm excited to learn more from you. I think to start, I'd like to have each of you, maybe just tell me a little bit about your journey. And what led you to the organization that you're working with now? Maybe we'll start with Scott and then go to Mike. Scott Fortner: [00:01:32] Yeah, I've been in the ski industry for 18 years, most of that in Colorado and took a little hiatus and did some real estate and spec home building when it was good. And then when it wasn't good, I was looking for something else to do and started kind of jumping on to the tourism side of things in Breckenridge and worked at the Breckenridge, Colorado, Breckenridge tourism office and ran, I was a marketing director there for eight years. And then yeah, there's an opportunity that happened up in Sun Valley. A friend of mine was that I had known for a while, was managing a construction of a new hotel. There would have been the first hotel in 25 or 30 years, I believe at that time. And he said, hey, this is a pretty cool place. It reminds me of what Breckenridge used to be like back in the day when we first moved there. And, yeah, so I came up and interviewed and it was, yeah, I've been there for now going on seven years. Adam Stoker: [00:02:24] Was he right? Scott Fortner: [00:02:24] He was spot on. Yeah, for sure. Adam Stoker: [00:02:26] Nice. Okay. I'm sure we'll talk a little bit more about that in just a few minutes. Mike. How about you? What led you to where you are? Mike McKenna: [00:02:33] Well, I'm a journalist by trade and I also do a lot of events stuff in my life. And I've been living in Hailey on and off for 30 years and loved Wood Rivers Valley. I bounced around to numerous other ski resorts, Tucson New Mexico, I’ve been Oregon, Mammoths Lakes California. And funny enough, I was on the board of the chamber and missed a board meeting to go to a conference. They elected me as president of the board that didn't come with any, there was no funding for that. Just for the president of the board. I said this is great, but it doesn't pay. So they said, how about you become the executive director? And so that was about five years ago. And it seems like it's been a good combination between my journalism background and my event background to sort of team up with our chamber, which is sort of a three-headed monster. We're a little bit, we're DMO under the Discovery Order Valley brand. We're also a traditional Chamber of Commerce and we're essentially the events clearing house for Blaine County. We do up to 50 events one way or another all year long. So it's been a good combination of all those things for me and being in a place that I love, it's easy to market and try to sell a place when you really love it. And I think that's been a key for me and probably for Scott as well. Adam Stoker: [00:03:32] Great. So that journalist background, I'm going to want to come back to that because I think that really prepares someone in a unique way to do what you do. And so I'll be interested to hear how you're using that skill. But I do want to learn a little bit about your organization. You started Mike to tell us a little bit about it that you've got three roles of your organization kind of under the same roof. Who do you serve? Mike McKenna: [00:03:55] Well, we serve just about anybody in the county. That's the interesting part about being a chamber that we have everybody from the little mom-and-pops’ to the big nonprofits to help in the ski resort. But we are a tourist-based economy and that's 70% of our economy is based on that. So my job every day, regardless of whether I'm trying to tell someone how to run their food and beverage restaurant or any other aspect of a business or nonprofit that they're in. To understand that we need tourists coming in to our community, for us to thrive and for all of us to, to survive. So that's sort of the nuts and bolts of it. Adam Stoker: [00:04:27] Great. And Scott, maybe I'll have you kind of chime in from here and tell us a little bit more about the destination as a whole, Sun Valley, and you know, obviously, it's got the international appeal. People come from all over the world to Sun Valley. What is it about it? That makes it such a special place. Scott Fortner: [00:04:43] That's a really good question. I really think since at least from my perspective being there, it really is, it’s the vibe, it's very low-key. You don't have a lot of chaos like you do in some other communities, mountain destinations. And I think that people are that way and I think that just projects out the, you know, we have very little, I don't even, I mean, most of the businesses there are, have been there for a while and their mom and pop businesses. They're unique. They're special. They're different hours of operation are unique and special and different as well. You know, we function as a way more, I think lead. Since I've been there, it definitely leads as a town and a community first. That happens to have a world-class resort with it. And with that comes visitors and entertain those visitors. But I would not say it's always “visitor first,” if that makes sense. And I think that's what makes it different. And I think being where we're located makes it different. It's you know, it's a little bit of a challenge to get there. We do have an airport that serves seven different routes in major cities and we have Delta United and Alaska serving that. And so we have good access from air perspective, but it's still, you know, it's a little bit of a journey and you have to want to be there. And the other thing, I think that makes it unique, at least from my background experience living in Summit County, Colorado is, when you're there, you're there. And so there's not a lot of choices. It's not like, you know if you were in Breckenridge, you want to go to Keystone for the day or up our base. You don't have that myriad of choices. You want to go to Bale. Those kinds of things, which you have in those kind of communities. In ours, it's not that way. And so it does make the guest a little bit, it's just different If you know, you know, and if you don't, you'd have to come and experience. But I think that's, you know, those things are what makes the place kind of special. And those people really want to dig in and they aren't just looking for the next best thing all the time. And usually, you know, I would say, you know, research and that kind of stuff, you know, 60% of our clientele return clientele. A lot of times from a lodging perspective, sometimes the thing looks like a timeshare, just because of, you know, the repeat visitation that we get, and it's loyal and they, they just like, I think that it's a welcoming place. And you know, they can get recognized as someone that, you know, a business owner would recognize them again or at least treat them like they've been recognized. And it's all those little things I think. But yeah, I think it's the vibe for sure. Adam Stoker: [00:07:03] I want to ask you, you said it's not visitor first, and I think what you were alluding to maybe is that it also has a really good quality of life for the residents, but I want to make sure that I was inferring that correctly. Scott Fortner: [00:07:15] Yeah, it is definitely visitors are a part of the daily life, but it's not the only thing. You know, it's not a, it's not a kind of destination that I would say that, I mean, it caters to the visitors, but it's not the only thing. Quality of life is super important. We obviously, because of this repeat and return visitor, we have a lot of second homeowners. Obviously with the pandemic, a lot of second homeowners who are now there permanently, and they, I think, feel more like family to the business owners that have been operating for a long time. And, you know, we don't volume wise, you know, the volume is a little bit different than maybe like a Breckenridge or like a park city or, you know, Deer Valley and some of those other places. We just don't get the Jackson. We're just not getting that kind of volume. And so I think it just makes the place feel a little different because of that as well. Adam Stoker: [00:08:03] Okay. And Mike, one of the things you said to me when we were chatting before we started recording is even though you guys are in the same destination in the Hailey Wood River Valley Chamber, you're speaking to a different audience than maybe visit Sun Valley is, is speaking to. So I'm curious, what's the difference between those audiences? And then why do you need to speak to him differently? Mike McKenna: [00:08:26] Well, that's a good question to Scott's point. We kind of have a, the Wood Valley is almost divided into a north and a south side. The northern sections have the more of the tourist-based stuff of Ketchum and Sun Valley ski resorts there. And then 12 miles down the road, you have Hailey and Bellevue, and that's where a lot of the community lives, which you have in towns like Colorado, I'm sure as well. But what happens is there's a lot more, there's a lot to offer everyone. And I think Sun Valley has a reputation, at least in Idaho specifically, because as thinking of it as a high-end place and that you have to be wealthy to go there and have a good time and you do not have to. There's a little bit of something for everyone and I think Scott and I, as we've become friends and work together over the years, have helped explain that there's something for everyone. You don't have to be a millionaire to come to Sun Valley and have a good time for the weekend or the week or what have you, and that we're family-friendly and there's something that you're, no matter what your demographic is or your financial state is, you can come to our community and have a great time. I think that's how we balance each other out a little bit that you don't often see, right? You know, if you're talking a place like Aspen, they're looking for certain people. Whereas maybe if you're driving up from Denver to Summit County for the weekend, it's maybe a different crowd. Does that make sense? Like maybe you're going to, instead of going to Bail, you're going to Loveland or something. And I may be confusing those up a little bit. Scott Fortner: [00:09:44] No, I think that's, that's a good, yeah, I think that's a good example. It's, you know, it's not as much about, you know, it's kind of like Psycho-graphics like you have this time to spend, you want to do your family. And there's certain people that, you know, have an expectation when they go to these, these mountain destinations about what that's going to entail. And that, you know, we have a lot of mountain destinations out in the west obviously. And so, which is great for a vacation or because they can choose to have something that might be a little bit more nightlife and, you know, party scene oriented or something, a little bit more family oriented or something, that's just a little bit more laid back. And if you like those things, you know, even regardless of where you are on the financial spectrum, in terms of what kind of experience you want, I think a place like, you know, Our Valley and Sun Valley could kind of deliver on that, because deliver on that low key kind of laid back people kind of dig in. We don't have a lot of powder panic there. It's, it is, again, it kind of goes back to this vibe that I think just comes radiates out from the residents who, you know, that's kind of how they live their lives. And I think one of the things we found out from the pandemic or at least I did is that a lot of people like to, everybody wants to be treated like a local and they want to have that vibe. And if you've been there a couple of times, you kind of start to get it. And when you do, you just kind of easily assimilate into just the quality of life and lifestyle. And you start to appreciate all those things, whether it's a powder day on the mountain, or it's just a day out on the river and you fly fishing, or whatever that might be. You just start to realize that where the locals kind of put their priorities, that visitors start to kind of assimilate and put their priorities kind of in the same way. Adam Stoker: [00:11:21] It is almost like they want to come and become a part of the destination more than just like a visit. But they kind of want to feel like they have some, some ownership in that vibe that you're describing. Scott Fortner: [00:11:32] Yeah, they want a piece of it and you would be really surprised in our communities. I think that events that Mike's put together that you're starting to see. I think obviously because we've seen so many folks rolling in from the pandemic, that people really appreciate, you know, family, wholesome Fourth of July, Old Mountain Town, kind of western experience, that's true and real and authentic. And it's not just a thing that was put on as programming, as part of a resort experience that you might find at maybe, you know, some other places. And I think those things are what really special. And when you get locals to buy in that you're doing it for them. And then you have visitors who come in and have that experience, they want to dig in and you know, not that the cultures are vastly that different, but they want to dig in and understand what that is. And they're willing to spend the time to do it. And I think they get that feeling of satisfaction by doing that. And I think that then in turn is the reason why we get so much to return business that we get. Adam Stoker: [00:12:28] I think that's something that makes you unique as a destination because I can't say that every destination that I talk to, when people come they feel like they're part of a club, or like they've joined the community, right? A lot of people will go to a destination and it's a very transactional relationship. They show up, they spend some money, they leave. They probably won't be back again for 5 to 7 years because they're, it's one stop on their many trips that they want to go on. It sounds to me like once you go to Sun Valley in a lot of cases, because you feel like you're a part of the community, you get more return visitor, like you said. Again, I'm making an assumption here. So you guys correct me if I'm wrong. But you've got the millionaires that want to come to, under the Sun Valley brand. But then you've also got the drive markets and the people that you're marketing to Mike and they're probably going to sit next to each other at a restaurant and blend really well. Scott Fortner: [00:13:18] Probably. They even have no idea. Mike McKenna: [00:13:21] That's what makes it so special there. You know, we don't have any chains. We don't have malls. We don't have, you know, it's like going to Park City where you're pulling in this big strip mall. As soon as you get there, everything's sort of real and unique. And so if you decide whether you want to go to the Pioneer Saloon, which is one of our most famous restaurants. Or you want to go to Cookbook, which is a high-end. You want to go to one of our Lefty’s or Grumpy's beer and burger bar, no matter what your demographic, why you came here, you can walk into those places and feel like you're accepted and you're part of the scene and you're part of our small community. I think that's what does help is that being a little bit more off the beaten path. There isn't a lot of competition in Idaho specifically for our type of experience. Scott Fortner: [00:13:58] It's more visitors on our terms than visitors on their terms. And I wouldn't say it's by design, by any means. It's just the, it's just the vibe that place gives us. Mike McKenna: [00:14:07] It's the way it's shaken out. Scott Fortner: [00:14:08] It’s the way it’s shaken out. Yeah. Mike McKenna: [00:14:16] This is a conversation I've had with some of the mayors in our communities just recently. If you're going to come to Sun Valley or the Wood Valley or Hailey, you come to be part of us, you don't come to change us. We don't want you to come in and say this place stinks. You need to do what we did. Well, where you let you know if you left Los Angeles, Boston, Tampa to come move to our community, you're supposed to adapt to us. We're not going to adapt to you. And it seems like a lot of our second homeowners are a lot of our fan base gets it right. You know, leave your city hat at home and now you've come into the heart of Idaho and you're supposed to just be a mellow, cool, nice person in the community, whether you're a billionaire or you're living paycheck to paycheck. We all come here for that same sort of mindset. We're here to enjoy Idaho. Enjoy the outdoors. Enjoy all the incredible stuff that we have in our community. We have one of the largest free, I think we have the largest free symphony in the world, at least in the country. So that's a perfect example where you're elbow to elbow with a great mix of people and we just want everyone to feel welcome. And that's what I think Scott and I have been able to do with the two DMOs, is really make, there's room for everybody to come and have a good time. Scott Fortner: [00:15:11] And I think that Mike pointed out the philanthropy in our communities are, it isn't a lot of mountain towns, I think. But this one, it's pretty strong where people are, you know, we just talked about earlier today here at Idaho Tribal Council meeting where, you know, talked about regenerative visitors and experience. And I think we've been experiencing that for many, many, many years. Again, not necessarily by design, that just people come here and they feel comfortable with giving to the nonprofits or they want to give to the nonprofits. They want to, you know, a lot of the amenities that we have, are arts and culture, performing arts, those kinds of things. Even, everything from mountain bike trails, fishing, access, all those kinds of things. A lot of those have been provided and developed from having visitors who want to, you know, write a check or help support. And that makes, I mean, they got skin in the game, right? Whether you're a repeat visitor and you get skin in the game. Or you’re, you know, a second homeowner and you get skin in the game where you have had a second home there while now you decided to move there. You know, that's kind of the, the natural cycle of life, I think in our community, what we see. And they're, you know, they're doing their part and giving back. Adam Stoker: [00:16:18] You know, I think there's levels to relationships that destinations have with their visitors. I think the level one is kind of the transactional relationship that we talked about. Right? I would say level two is where you might want to invest in the community in some land or in a home or something like that. When people start philanthropically giving to a community, I would say you're at level three. And I don't know if there's much higher of a level that you can get to as far as relationship with your visitors. Scott Fortner: [00:16:45] Yeah, it's, it's pretty amazing for sure. And especially, you know, during the pandemic when times were really tough, when a lot of the second homeowners came because they felt it was safe and that's what they wanted to do. And, you know, they were helping out, especially on the social side of things with the social nonprofits. And the Hunger Coalition in our community was, you know, really dependent on those people in and giving back. And yeah, you could see that kind of start to, it was kind of born out of all the years prior to that. And you could kind of see it really come to fruition when moments like, you know, trying times like we had. And we've had fires in the past and you start to see very much the same thing and not that, I don't think it comes in a manner that is not like, well, we don't have to worry about it because it'll get taken care of. It doesn't come that at all. It just, I think people are just pleasantly surprised when it does. And that's, again, I think it's another one of those unique things that kind of makes it like a real town and a real community that people feel just, I think a little differently than maybe some other places. Adam Stoker: [00:17:41] Here's the hard question then that all my listeners are going to be asking. It's like, well, it's wonderful you're at this relationship level with your visitors. How'd you do it? Scott Fortner: [00:17:50] Good question. Yeah. That's a really good question. I wouldn't say it's, you know, by saying all that we certainly, don't get me wrong, and I think Mike would agree. We've definitely had our fair share of challenges for sure. People who did not fit that, you know, kind of visitors on our terms. Certainly, you know, at the peak of the pandemic when everybody had all this time on their hands. And, you know, again, in the scheme of things, I think relatively you have not really seen the kind of volumes of mass bodies at trailheads and hiking and backpacking permits and all that kind of stuff. And we saw that kind of get out of hand. And we, that's kind of when we, as our role kind of turned towards this, the management side of kind of the DMO, and started implementing, you know, all those things that everybody ended up doing. And we kind of try to do our own version of that. We call it Stay Sunny. And it was kind of quirky and kind of funny. But yet when it first came out, it had a little bit of an edge to it. And we kind of toned it out and toned it back a little bit as things started to play out. But it was one of those where I think a lot of, not everybody, you know, the community kind of gets split on things like that. But I think for the most part, there was some appreciation for it. I think there was, again, it kind of goes back to visitors kind of on our terms. It gave a reason for a line employee to have to interact or have a reason to interact or feel confident about it because they've seen these signs about behaviors and those types of things, and runs all the gamut through every kind of interaction or thing you might have, whether it's in a rental shop for renting gear, or you know, there's natural interactions, but also like just even at the grocery store kind of thing. So, yeah, I think we've gotten better though, I would think. Mike McKenna: [00:19:24] Well, one of the things that's been coming up at this conference is trying to attract the right kind of visitor. And Sun Valley has been great at attracting the right kind of visitor for our destination for years. We're not going for like when I was in Mammoth in very weekend. There's 20 to 40,000 people running around the town. And then on Wednesday, there's 8000 people there. We kind of have a little bit more of a, we don't have those ups and downs. We're not just come on and blow us up for the weekend because we need all that money. We're no, come, be a part of us. Come enjoy what we're doing. And if you don't get it, we don't really want you to come back. That's, we've always sort of had that attitude up there. We're really welcoming if you want to be part of us and get into the scene, you know. One of the things we say in Idaho, a true Idahoan waves at someone where, whether you're on the bike path or on the road or what have you. We're really friendly. And now the joke has been, well, you got to make sure you wave with all your fingers otherwise we don't want you coming back. But I, we've just sort of, you know, listen to that all week this last couple of days, I'm going, we do that really well, I feel like. And I'm not exactly sure how, it's just sort of the culture of our community. But if you're not friendly and they're not welcoming and you don't want to be, move over and let someone take your fishing spot if they've got a kid with them, or give a better parking spot, or get out of the way on the hill. Then we don't really want you and you're not welcome. Where you can get away with that in busier places like Park City and Mammoth and Killington, Vermont or these other spots where you're just inundated. We never feel overrun even during the height of COVID. The trails got a little crowded, but I never feel like Sun Valley, Ketchum, Hailey are overrun with people as opposed to other ski towns that I've lived in. Scott Fortner: [00:20:52] Yeah, I think it does take that. Again, it kind of goes back to that experience where I think if you're someone who is kind of an old soul, I think you would really enjoy it there. And enjoy everything the place has to offer from, you know, handcrafted cocktails to, you know, arts and culture and some really, you know, intellectual events that we do have. As well as just the, you know, someone told me when I first moved there, it's like, from the ski experience, it's like the most civilized ski experience they ever had. And you have to, you know, you have to appreciate those kinds of things. At the same time it's, you know, it's the, you know, oldest winter destination in the United States. So it was the first. And so, it has that kind of cachet as a legacy kind of destination. Sun Valley Lodge is just classic and legacy. And you know, people go there and build memories and have experiences and celebrations. And I think with that brings this, yeah, it's kind of old soul. If you're looking to go, Go-go dancing and you know, clubbing and that kind of thing, probably not the place. And you know what? That's okay. There's plenty of places for people to go and do that and have that experience. And I think those are the things where it kind of, it's never tried to chase a trend or it's never tried to accommodate a particular thing. Especially like when it comes to tourism trends and you know. It's a kind of ebb and flow and come and go and what's the thing? It's never been that way, good, bad or indifferent. Adam Stoker: [00:22:14] There's a stability, I think that comes along with attracting the right visitor from the get-go. Like you said, in Mammoth, there's 40,000 people running around and two days later, there's 8000. And while the weekends are great, there's an instability that kind of comes along with that. And the fact that, you know, the vibe as you described with Scott, everyone kind of act and, and feel within a certain, I don't even know how to explain it, but within like a certain etiquette that you, I guess you have to be there to understand. It breeds stability even though it's not high volume, tons of traffic, overrun. And then we got to clean up a mess after. It's a very stable audience. Again, the question for me as, as I hear it and I'm not asking you to answer it, but it's the question that's burning in my mind is, how do you create a vibe like that, that even affects the way both residents and visitors behave when they come to the destination? Because really if you can crack the code and maybe it goes back to creating an incredible brand. A brand that is so understandable that even the residents understand how they need to behave in order to maintain the brand. I don't know, I don't even know what the question is from what I'm saying, but that's kind of where I, where my head's at. Scott Fortner: [00:23:30] Yeah, I think it just happens by osmosis, truly. I mean, I think it's people who do, I mean, one, you know, kind of a silly example is we have this amazing music festival that happens in the summertime and we get amazing performances, orchestra, ballet. I mean, it's just amazing stuff that you would never, I mean, so fortunate in the middle of Idaho that you have these experiences that we'd normally have to go to New York or San Francisco to see. And we have them and there's an outdoor and it's free. So indoor seating in the pavilion and Sun Valley and then outdoor seating is usually free. And it's this cultural thing where people come and have picnics and locals have been doing it for years. And then they have, they're kind enough to put the TV, high projection TV to be able to watch this. And so, people have picnics and they're hanging out. And it's just the little things that happen because that's been going on for so many years. It's just kind of part of the thing is you're very cognizant of not having high back chairs because then people can't see right like it's nothing. And you can tell when you look out in the audience like who's been here before or who knows by just like what they're sitting in. And there is this, typically, there is like one or two older folks that will go early. So I've seen it like, maybe you have to go around and just like I just want let you know, you know, we don't appreciate having high back seats because they can’t see. You know, they whisper quietly, respectfully, Mike McKenna: [00:24:43] And risk respectfully. Scott Fortner: [00:24:45] And you can tell like how those people react, you can by their reaction, know whether they're, you know, they either get mad and that's fine, understandable. And they're probably not going to come back and that's okay. They're not going to fit in with all the other aspects that we have to offer. And all the other things we do if that's the thing that sets them off, so to speak. But you can also tell like, oh, thank you so much. We really wanted to. We, you know, we feel bad. We'll sit on the ground. You know, you have people who are like completely the other way around and you're like, those are going to be, you know, the future visitors, we think. You can just kind of see that and that's just one silly kind of example. But it plays off in everything from mountain biking to hiking, to mountain bikes, hiking and horses on the trail too. I mean, we have probably multi-use on trails and getting together and working towards opening and keeping trails open and trail maintenance across motorized horse or equestrian, hiking, biking. All get along. We don't have the issues a lot of other communities and their forests have. And again, it goes back to, there's like two examples and I'm sure we could say here, knock out four or five other examples. And so as they see those kind of just in the spirit of how people treat other people, I think that's kind of how it happens. Mike McKenna: [00:25:59] Well, that goes back to, you know, we're not, we don't look at visitors as dollar signs. We look at them as individuals. And you come to our community, and to Scott's sense, are you part of our tribe? Because if you, if this vibes with you and you feel like you're one of us. We love you. We're welcome to have you. If you don't vibe with us and it's not your scene, you can go someplace else. So I think we're a little bit more welcoming like that. Also, as Scott mentioned, you know, Sun Valley Resort was built in 1936. The first American destination ski resort in the country. So our whole community, because before 36 it was a sheep, you know, Ag town. So it's in bred sort of. Even if you've been there for generations that you understand that that part of role there is to be welcoming. I mean, we're dealing with that a little bit. There's been a change since COVID. We have a lot of new residents that have come to town and said, I don't like all these tourists. Well, you didn't even live here three years ago. This is how we, how we roll around here. And again, either join the tribe or go find another one without having to be too rude. Like we don't have high back chairs here, buddy, you know. Instead of going, hey, jerk, get out of here. You got a high back chair. Because we, you sit down simply. You go, these guys aren't from here, you know. And how do they feel? Get that energy that we give them? And I do feel like of all the ski resorts I lived in, there's more of a natural buy in. But we're not just, like I said, going to pack, you know, get 10,000 skiers every day. That's not the goal. But if they're going to return, they're going to bring their families, we can still be economically sound without having to sell out every weekend. Scott Fortner: [00:27:24] Yeah, I feel like what Mike and I do is more of an investment for the longer term as opposed to, obviously, we do things to drive demand in certain times. And we have the analysis and we do those things like a lot of other people do. But I think a lot of times in the back of our minds, it's the long term investment, right? And so you're not just playing the volume game, right? Yeah. Mike McKenna: [00:27:46] And it makes a big difference. And I think as a visitor, you can sense that. Adam Stoker: [00:27:49] Yeah, interesting. So another question that I have then as I hear you guys speak, you talk about how, you know it's one of the oldest winter destinations or you said the oldest I think is, is what you said, what do you do when your audience not figuratively but literally starts to fall off the conveyor belt? How do you replace an older audience with a younger audience? Scott Fortner: [00:28:13] Great question for our community. Yeah, yeah. Adam Stoker: [00:28:15] Yeah, yeah. Those of you listening, he pointed at Scott. He said you answer that. Mike McKenna: [00:28:20] Yeah, I did, I did. Scott Fortner: [00:28:21] It is on the forefront for sure. Attrition rates always a concern. The one thing that, you know, we definitely have an older clientele. And we have in an older community for sure. But they're incredibly fit. It's amazing to see them out there, because you say that and you, and then, or I say that too as well as like, okay, we got, you know, we got a lot of work cut out for us. But you're just amazed at how many people you see, like you're still kicking in their 90s. But we do, you know, I think that we, I think it's one of those things where when you need to start looking and we talk about it all the time and from our organization about younger audience and that kind of thing. But I think it's, you know, those audiences, as we know, you know, largest now, largest generation, Gen Z, Millennials, and all that kind of stuff even more than the Boomers, out of that, I think we can find, as I mentioned earlier, kind of enough old souls that appreciate, you know, the things that we have to offer and how we do it. And that’s, it's not as necessarily done in a lot of vain. And I think people kind of appreciate that. They want to take the time. And I think we just got to find those people and make that introduction. And that's what we've been doing is kind of chipping away at it. And I think it's more about not changing to accommodate to get them. But as much like we think there's things here that you would appreciate. I mean, I think we see it in just like modern culture already where you start to see one. It's big enough, I think, right? If it wasn't big enough, I think we probably have a way different story. But because it's big enough, there's enough, yeah, new younger people to kind of introduce the place to and we even see it like, you know, families that have grown, the kids have gone to college. They've gone off and done something to go to Salt Lake or Denver or something or West Coast in LA, San Francisco. And they ultimately start to migrate back because they now appreciate what they grew up in. And they want to bring up their kids in that same kind of environment. And I think we're starting to see some of that and that kind of parlays into a little bit of younger audience bringing their friends or telling them about where they're going. And the downside is just like a lot of communities is just, can they make a way, can they find the house? And can they do that? Are they bringing their own job? A lot of them do. What are the opportunities to be able to, to live that quality of life that they grew up with or they've heard about? So those are all the challenges we're trying to work on as well. Adam Stoker: [00:30:35] It almost seems like you have to target a mindset, not a demographic. Scott Fortner: [00:30:38] Totally. There really is that what are the things that you think? You know, we think you're going to appreciate. And I, you know, I do think even, you know, even musically you start to see these trends, like Spotify starts to trend. And you start to see what's on trend on Spotify and you notice that it's, you know, very, a lot of simplistic things seem to be the most popular in terms of guitar, powerful song. Anthony Oliver is a great example. And I think it's that kind of thing like we can provide an experience somebody would enjoy in a way in a manner that I think that they would be appreciative and they would see that. Adam Stoker: [00:31:13] And so almost by keeping the experience simple, the old souls will kind of migrate that way. Scott Fortner: [00:31:19] Yeah. Mike McKenna: [00:31:20] Yeah, you're not coming to Sun Valley to party, that we don't have a wobbly barn like Killington does. We don't have these, you know, it's not South Lake Tahoe on a Saturday night. You're coming there for these other experiences. And so that's what you're looking for. Into Scott's Point too, yeah, we have a really older demographic. We also have a lot of families and my wife's the 5th generation local. And she's the classic case where once she got in her twenties, she didn't want to be there. We bounced and I met her soon thereafter. But we lived all over the country and then lived in some ski towns that were more partying. Like Mammoth is a big party town, like I mentioned earlier. And then we were ready. We had kids. We still wanted all these things that we loved in a ski town, but we didn't need to have a bar that was partying until 2:00 in the morning anymore, right? And we needed things that were good for our family and it's such an incredible place to raise children. Scott and I have both done that there. And then that kind of helps breed the future. They may not graduate from college, they might want to leave, but they'll, in the back of their mind, they go check out every place else and they go, wow, Sun Valley is pretty magical. I was pretty lucky to grow up there. And hopefully they then come back and they bring their friends. But we're never probably going to be that 20-30 year old scene. So we don't have to put a lot of energy into that. We could use some more of that because we don't want those people to have nothing. But someone else can have them at that life stage and then they can come back to us when they're, when skiing is more important than upper skiing, you know. Scott Fortner: [00:32:36] Yeah. When they're mature enough to be positive contributors to the community, right? Mike McKenna: [00:32:40] Exactly, right. Adam Stoker: [00:32:41] You know, it breeds another question for me, as you're talking about this is, how do you as a destination keep in touch with those that you send off into the world, so that when the time is right that you can actually entice them to come back. Not an easy question to answer, but an interesting question to ponder. And I'm especially with our time here. I don't know that we're going to answer it in this conversation. Mike, I did want to follow up from the beginning of the discussion, how your journalism background prepared you to be the mouthpiece for a destination. Mike McKenna: [00:33:13] It's a marketing basis. Even if you're a journalist, you're still trying to write stuff that people are going to read, that they want to have their attention. You have to think out what your plans are. But one thing just for marketing is being a journalist and an editor and writer for so long, is we have a short attention span, right? And I've known this for the last 20 plus years. If you don't have a good lead, if your first sentence or two on whatever you're writing isn't good, no one's reading it. And that kind of goes to marketing too, especially now with social media, everything's so quick. That was a good background. Also just trying to plan and piece it all together. Like for us, the anchor of all of our marketing is our visitor's guide, which does really well. And when we're preparing that we have to think about sort of putting a simple magazine together once a year, allows me to think about every aspect of how we're going to try to people that year from the messaging to the different angles. So I think journalism is a good background for people getting into marketing. Plus understanding what the media people want from you as a writer, you know, hey, this is a great story, Mike, you should do that. No one's reading that, you know. I might have an idea how to. I am hitting people up who I had their jobs. So I have a little better idea of what they, of what they would like. Adam Stoker: [00:34:15] Yeah, especially on the earned media side. I've got to imagine that that's helpful because you're like, what I have picked this story. Mike McKenna: [00:34:21] Exactly. Adam Stoker: [00:34:22]Yeah. Mike McKenna: [00:34:22] Well, that's it to all the years as a journalist. It doesn't matter what I think, it matters what people want. What's going to resonate with them. And I do, I think we do that. Scott does a great job with this Sun Valley too. Like the Stay Sunny campaign really resonated with a lot of people. And it was amazing how many locals you could see pride coming out again in our community, because I feel like they did that really, really well, yeah. Adam Stoker: [00:34:43] Great. Well, guys, this has been a lot of fun. In fact, I was anticipating like a 20 minute discussion and we've done a really good job here. But it's been a really fascinating conversation for me. So I appreciate you taking the time. If people want to learn more about each of you or your destinations, what's the best way for them to do? So, I'll start with you Mike. Mike McKenna: [00:35:01] Valleychamber.org is our website and has everything on there. And Google, discover what River Valley is what we do a lot of our social media. And just to, yeah, get a little slice of all the great things, and I do a lot of events. And you asked an earlier question about that. And I think one of our goals, as sort of the event guy for Blaine County, is to make sure events are not just great for visitors, but they're great for locals too. So when those folks come back, that graduated from college and they come back for the 4th of July, or they come back for Thanksgiving and do the turkey trot or whatever, they like, they use events feel very community based, even if they're trying to draw tourism. Trailing of the sheep is one of our monstrous ones. We just had a couple of weeks ago. But it's still, you feel like it's part of the community and I feel like we do a real good job. Adam Stoker: [00:35:42] They don't come home and feel like they don't fit anymore. Mike McKenna: [00:35:44] No. Yeah, they go. Oh, it's still my town. I still love this place and it's still got that character. It's still small town. I mean, as much as we're probably Idaho's biggest international destination for a ski resort, for sure. We're still a small town. Idaho. And I think we, as long as we can hold on to that, then we're going to keep attracting the right kind of people. Adam Stoker: [00:35:44] Great Scott. Scott Fortner: [00:36:03] Yeah, you can reach us at, just Google Sun Valley. Easy to find. Visit Sunvalley.com is our website. Yeah, I think, you know, we try to portray and you know, content on our site, it's storytelling. And you know much about the people who live there. The whole set of blog stories just on the people who live there called what we're made of. And I think it gives people a sense about what the place is. And I think once we were just talking about how do you get more young people in that. As I do think it is those younger folks who are in college and sharing those experiences and bringing their friends back. And I think it starts to, again, kind of like osmosis, you know. It just kind of starts to happen and they start to have those experiences. They share those things with their friends. It kind of gets out there a little bit about the vibe and a cool place. And people tell like what they did when they were, you know, growing up as a kid. And again, like Mike said, I think we painted it like, it sounds, maybe to some people in the place is really pretty drab and boring. But, you know, it is Idaho and there's a lot of Idaho fun that gets out there for sure. And it perks up in different ways. And it's just not what I think in ways in a manner that are just different than other people. It's not wrong, right, or indifferent by any means. But I think once you've gone out and about and experienced some things and you've had our experience for those people who are looking for that. I think it makes you just feel a little, a little different about how you're spending your money and where you're spending your money at. Adam Stoker: [00:37:23] Yeah. Awesome. Well, you guys, thanks so much, really appreciate your time and I hope you enjoy the rest of the conference. Mike McKenna: [00:37:28] Yeah. Scott Fortner: [00:37:28] Thanks for having me too. Hope to see you up there. Adam Stoker: [00:37:30] Awesome. [End of transcript]
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