1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,160 This podcast contains the personal stories, opinions and experiences of its speakers, rather 2 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:11,500 than those of Breast Cancer Now. Welcome to the Breast Cancer Now podcast, providing support and 3 00:00:11,500 --> 00:00:17,440 information to anyone affected by breast cancer. I'm Laura Price and I'm the host of the Breast 4 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:24,760 Cancer Now podcast. I'm a food writer and author and I live with secondary breast cancer. This 5 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:30,940 episode we are talking to Emma Campbell, who you may know by her Instagram handle limitless_em. 6 00:00:30,940 --> 00:00:37,220 Emma is an author, a public speaker and a single mum of four who, like me, is living with secondary 7 00:00:37,220 --> 00:00:43,060 breast cancer. She is the host of Open with Emma Campbell, a podcast where she has open-hearted 8 00:00:43,060 --> 00:00:48,360 conversations with guests including TV presenters Gabby Roslyn and Denise Welch and 9 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:54,540 Breast Cancer survivors and thrivers like Leanne Perot and Carly Moosa. Although she goes by the 10 00:00:54,540 --> 00:00:59,700 Instagram handle limitless_em, Emma writes honestly about her mental health and reaching her 11 00:00:59,700 --> 00:01:05,000 limits. Today we'll be talking about Emma's experience of secondary breast cancer, her 12 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:09,680 friendship with the late Dame Deborah James and how she keeps going when she feels far from 13 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:14,880 limitless. Emma, thank you so much for joining us on the Breast Cancer Now podcast. Thank you so much 14 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:21,440 Laura, it's lovely to be here. How are you today? I'm okay today, I did wake up in a bit of a kind of 15 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:28,700 slightly overwhelmed Monday juggling a lot of plates before nine o'clock in the morning kind of 16 00:01:28,700 --> 00:01:36,080 mood, but I did a bit of a reset which I'm trying to get better at doing by just doing a few things that 17 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:42,400 helped me ground myself a little bit and start again. Okay, well maybe we'll talk about that in a 18 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:49,340 bit because probably lots of people would like to know how to do a reset. So you, like me, were first 19 00:01:49,340 --> 00:01:54,840 diagnosed with breast cancer more than a decade ago. Can you start by telling us what your life was 20 00:01:54,840 --> 00:02:01,200 like before breast cancer and how that initial diagnosis came about? My life before was, you 21 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:07,920 know, in the year or so leading up to the diagnosis was really challenging. So it kind of, I often say, 22 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:14,620 I feel like I was already at a bit of a rock bottom when the diagnosis came along. So in 2009, I, at the 23 00:02:14,620 --> 00:02:20,460 end of 2009, I gave birth to triplets after sort of four years of secondary infertility, had my 24 00:02:20,460 --> 00:02:26,520 lovely eldest son, went through miscarriages, fertility treatment, IVF and, you know, the 25 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:32,620 miracle, magical news of finding out I was carrying healthy triplets, but also quite 26 00:02:32,620 --> 00:02:39,480 overwhelming and unfortunately my relationship became more and more fragile and so throughout the 27 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:44,080 pregnancy was going through those physical changes, those hormonal changes, but also a very 28 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:51,020 turbulent personal life. So stress levels were extremely high. And when the baby's born, you 29 00:02:51,020 --> 00:02:55,520 know, another few months of the reality of the relationship falling apart, managing the babies 30 00:02:55,520 --> 00:03:04,780 and all of that. So it was an incredibly difficult time. And then when they were five months old, I got 31 00:03:04,780 --> 00:03:11,120 my initial diagnosis. So what happened? Did you find a lump? Did you have different symptoms? 32 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:15,620 Yeah. So I'd had a lump in my breast for several years in my right breast that I'd had checked when 33 00:03:15,620 --> 00:03:20,840 my eldest son Jake was about two and a half. I'd had a mammogram, was told everything was fine, and that 34 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:27,540 lump remained unchanged. And then throughout the course of the pregnancy, again, rather than sort 35 00:03:27,540 --> 00:03:31,780 of put on a lot of weight, I actually lost a lot of weight because I think the babies were kind of just 36 00:03:31,780 --> 00:03:36,400 taking what they needed and also sickness, stress, just sort of running on adrenaline 37 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:42,200 really. So I was very, and I was very aware of physical changes. And in the months after the 38 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:50,700 babies were born, I was aware of changes. I was, you know, I'd been expressing around the clock. And I 39 00:03:50,700 --> 00:03:57,580 was aware of that lump. It was almost like that lump had gone. But I couldn't feel that small, hard lump 40 00:03:57,580 --> 00:04:03,560 anymore. But when I was, I'd be sort of lying in bed at night and the rabbits have sleep, so lying on my 41 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:09,760 tummy, I almost felt like I was lying on something. And so the small, hard lump, as it turned out, had 42 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:19,140 become a five centimeter tumor. But I think I was in such a heightened state of survival mode that I 43 00:04:19,140 --> 00:04:24,540 ignored those changes. I ignored those changes for several months. It was almost like my brain 44 00:04:24,540 --> 00:04:28,380 wouldn't let me go there. And it was only, it was one night in the middle of the night, I was feeding one 45 00:04:28,380 --> 00:04:32,920 of the babies two, three o'clock in the morning, and I happened to just put my hand under my right 46 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:41,780 arm, and I felt a small, hard lump. And I think that was a real sort of universe tilting moment of shit. 47 00:04:41,780 --> 00:04:47,460 You know, I just, I, in that moment, I felt like I knew. And I still took me probably a week or two to 48 00:04:47,460 --> 00:04:51,600 ring up the GP because that's what I've always been very good at, putting things off and burying my 49 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:57,700 head in the sand. But I did ring the GP and from then on, everything happened very, very quickly. And I 50 00:04:57,700 --> 00:05:03,340 got a diagnosis of a five centimeter tumor with lymph node involvement. And what, because 51 00:05:03,340 --> 00:05:07,360 obviously you were breastfeeding then, what treat, oh, were you I was expressing, you're 52 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,440 expressing, so I expressed for the first six weeks, and then it just became and said, no, but I 53 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:15,460 was, I was formula, but feeding them sort of constantly, as you can imagine. So were you then 54 00:05:15,460 --> 00:05:20,540 able to have treatment? What treatment were you able to have? Yeah, so I was immediately, and you 55 00:05:20,540 --> 00:05:25,060 have to forgive me because I can never, ever remember the names of those initial full on breast 56 00:05:25,060 --> 00:05:30,120 cancer, you know, people say, oh, the red one or feck, or, you know, but I, I'm really, it was, and it 57 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:33,880 was nearly 14 years ago, which, you know, what a wonderful thing to be able to say it was nearly 14 58 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:42,340 years ago. But I was immediately, it did all happen very quickly. So I was, I started on chemo to shrink 59 00:05:42,340 --> 00:05:47,860 the tumor with the plan being I'd have the mastectomy and reconstruction. And yet I wasn't 60 00:05:47,860 --> 00:05:52,040 feeding the baby. So I was able to just embark on all of that treatment. So life sort of shifted from 61 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:58,000 being this newly single mum dealing, looking after a six year old and baby triplets in a top floor 62 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:04,120 flat and kind of friends doing a rotor of helping me with nappy changes and occasionally sleeping on 63 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:12,780 the sofa to that mum, that me, and then adding on a diagnosis. And so the sort of, the anti upped 64 00:06:12,780 --> 00:06:18,180 dramatically. And it just became almost like it went from a small community of friends and family 65 00:06:18,180 --> 00:06:22,720 to almost like, I don't live in anything like a village, but it almost felt like everyone then 66 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:29,280 just, you know, word spread. And suddenly I was had people from everywhere sort of turning up and 67 00:06:29,280 --> 00:06:35,820 helping and just holding me through it. I mean, you, no one could do that alone. No, I mean, it's the 68 00:06:35,820 --> 00:06:40,260 strangest thing because I couldn't have done it without all of the help. There was, there was so 69 00:06:40,260 --> 00:06:46,100 much practical help. And I just surrendered to it. You know, we find it, we find it hard, don't we, to 70 00:06:46,100 --> 00:06:51,200 say, yes, it's really hard. We, we want to hold on to our independence. We don't want to be a burden in 71 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:55,980 inverted commas. But I remember very early, sort of towards the end of the pregnancy, pre 72 00:06:55,980 --> 00:07:01,340 diagnosis, a good friend of mine who's, who already had four, four children at that point. And 73 00:07:01,340 --> 00:07:06,580 she was hand going through some baby clothes to give to me. And she said, just if I can say one thing 74 00:07:06,580 --> 00:07:10,720 to you, just say yes to every offer of help. And at that point, and that was all about the babies that 75 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:15,100 were coming. And I just never forgot those words. And it became something that, you know, in the 76 00:07:15,100 --> 00:07:22,440 months and the years that followed, I, I said yes, I had to say yes many, many, many, many times. I think 77 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:27,440 that's great advice for anyone who has cancer, anyone who has children. Just anyone in general, 78 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:32,400 you know, we are, I think perhaps as, as Brits, we are quite bad at accepting help. Yeah, I mean, I 79 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:36,440 know I might be leaping ahead slightly to a kind of what would you say to someone, but you know, that 80 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:43,180 kind of question of, you know, what, what, what can I do for my best friend who's just had a diagnosis or 81 00:07:43,180 --> 00:07:50,140 my neighbor or my cousin or whatever. It really is, don't wait for them to ask you, just kind of just 82 00:07:50,140 --> 00:07:54,940 offer or just do things unexpectedly, you know, and I think that's the key difference because as 83 00:07:54,940 --> 00:07:59,320 the one going through it, I don't know about you, but actually ringing up someone, would you mind 84 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:04,180 going to the supermarket for me? I can't make it, or I don't feel well enough to cook dinner, would you, 85 00:08:04,180 --> 00:08:08,020 I don't know about you, I would find that very difficult. Whereas the friends that were saying, 86 00:08:08,020 --> 00:08:12,220 look, I'm in the supermarket, I'm going to be driving past your house in half an hour. Oh yes, 87 00:08:12,220 --> 00:08:19,200 please, can you bring, you know, that to me was a real reframe and it made it much easier to say yes 88 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:24,540 over and over again. Yeah, and it's a much better thing to do than to say, how can I help or what can I do 89 00:08:24,540 --> 00:08:29,100 to help or let me know if there's anything I can do to help because you just don't, you don't even 90 00:08:29,100 --> 00:08:35,580 necessarily know what you need. And yeah, I completely agree with you that I would feel 91 00:08:35,580 --> 00:08:41,880 embarrassed to ask a friend to go to the shops for me or to do this or that for me because I know that 92 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:46,000 they've also got loads of things on their plate, you know, they've, all my friends have got kids, 93 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:53,600 you know, they've got lots of things going on. So yeah, take a meal round or... It's just that it's 94 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:57,620 thinking ahead and it's just those lovely gestures of, you know, the simplest, the simplest 95 00:08:57,620 --> 00:09:01,660 things I remember coming over from the hospital one day and a lady that I'd only hadn't seen for 96 00:09:01,660 --> 00:09:10,120 years, you know, she was a prenatal, you know, baby, anti-natal baby class and she'd come in, 97 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:16,620 she'd heard I wasn't well, she'd come in and she'd clean my kitchen and she'd taken all the dirty, all 98 00:09:16,620 --> 00:09:21,040 the bedsheet, you know, the washing away and she bought it back the next day and that was just like, 99 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:25,980 you know, you never forget things like that. That's so lovely, yeah, that's a really nice one to 100 00:09:25,980 --> 00:09:32,400 do. So we've talked about the primary cancer and treatment. When did you find out that the cancer 101 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:36,540 had spread and how did you get that secondary breast cancer diagnosis? So I responded 102 00:09:36,540 --> 00:09:41,340 incredibly well to the initial treatment. I was told I was cancer-free and I had every reason to 103 00:09:41,340 --> 00:09:47,320 sort of feel that, you know, that was it, it was done. And so those next few years were really 104 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:52,940 about, well, physically, you know, as we do our bodies, if we're fortunate, resilient and strong 105 00:09:52,940 --> 00:10:00,820 and I was in my 30s, my body bounced back, you know, it took a long time but you restore that physical 106 00:10:00,820 --> 00:10:06,780 fitness much quicker than the emotional. And so I've often talked about how devastating the 107 00:10:06,780 --> 00:10:11,020 emotional impact was in those, in those sort of three, four years that followed where I was 108 00:10:11,020 --> 00:10:16,240 technically kind of fitting well. But inside I was living as though I was dying because my fear was 109 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:24,600 just so amplified all the time. And actually, so 2010 was the initial diagnosis and then it was 110 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:32,500 coming to the end of 2014, just as I was at the point where my oncologist was saying, right, see you in, 111 00:10:32,500 --> 00:10:39,340 you know, a year rather than six months or whatever it was. And I, and I was feeling really well, really 112 00:10:39,340 --> 00:10:45,140 fit. I was exercising, I was really feeling that life was opening up again, you know, and I 113 00:10:45,140 --> 00:10:55,020 developed a redness on my chest. And I put it down to again, me being the queen of denial. I put it down 114 00:10:55,020 --> 00:10:59,680 to, I was doing lots of that, I'd started exercising again, you know, I was, I was like, oh, 115 00:10:59,680 --> 00:11:05,540 maybe it's my sports bra rubbing, or maybe it's detergent, or maybe it's, you know, am I ever doing 116 00:11:05,540 --> 00:11:15,480 it with the push-ups? And so weeks and weeks went by and the redness and itchiness increased. And 117 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:20,120 there were a few false starts I was told initially, and I know that's fine, you know, secondary 118 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:26,300 wouldn't present like that. And then anyway, just before Christmas 2014, I was told the cancer would 119 00:11:26,300 --> 00:11:32,000 come back in my skin, which, you know, I mean, that's, this is a whole big conversation for me 120 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:37,760 because I am very sensitive to the terminology around, around cancer. And of course, the skin is 121 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:44,740 an organ, which means that it's a secondary diagnosis at stage four. But I also sort of hold on 122 00:11:44,740 --> 00:11:51,060 to the fact that, okay, the skin is an organ, but in terms of where it was, it was, it was still, it still 123 00:11:51,060 --> 00:11:55,960 felt like quite a localized recurrence. And it's been confusing for me because in some ways, 124 00:11:55,960 --> 00:12:04,080 obviously, I know it's secondary and it's stage four. But it was also, has felt like a localized 125 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:08,640 recurrence as well, you know, so sometimes I kind of, depending on my mood and my state of mind or 126 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:13,480 where we're at in the time of year and triggers, I can be kind of like, yeah, it's just, you know, it 127 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:19,260 just came back there and then it went away, which kind of it did, you know. So that was in 2014. So I 128 00:12:19,260 --> 00:12:25,460 went straight back on and they couldn't operate. It was still her too, which was, I think, a good 129 00:12:25,460 --> 00:12:31,620 thing in terms of I'd responded very well. This is her set. Her set, yeah, the her too positive. So I 130 00:12:31,620 --> 00:12:37,820 went straight back on chemo, which then, again, I can't remember the name of those chemo's, I didn't 131 00:12:37,820 --> 00:12:42,820 lose all my hair, I did the cold cap this time and I sort of developed a bit of a Bill Bailey, you know, 132 00:12:42,820 --> 00:12:48,640 not much hair on top and wispy at the sides, but I held on to it. And chemo was really rough again, but 133 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:57,960 then it's segwayed into the kind of Hoseptin, Patuzumab and Hoseptin, you know, combination, 134 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:03,940 which, and I did really well. I mean, I went straight back into kind of remission, no sign of 135 00:13:03,940 --> 00:13:10,080 active disease and remained on that combination every three weeks, the sort of, you know, 136 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:18,060 maintenance treatment, I guess, until 2019. And throughout the pretty much the whole of 2019, I'd 137 00:13:18,060 --> 00:13:25,820 noticed changes in my other breast. And again, I'd ignored them. So really, I feel, I could, I can feel 138 00:13:25,820 --> 00:13:30,680 embarrassed by that and almost if I'm being really hard on myself, I feel embarrassed to admit that 139 00:13:30,680 --> 00:13:37,760 because there are, I ignored those symptoms and yet I'm still here doing well. So is that the luck of 140 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:44,020 the draw, but at the same time, so I don't in any way kind of gloss over the fact. It's just me being 141 00:13:44,020 --> 00:13:49,800 honest about my fear and how that manifests itself and how I still find it easier to ignore things and 142 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:55,780 immediately get them checked. So by the time I, I'd spent months noticing changes in the other 143 00:13:55,780 --> 00:14:00,440 breast, but because I was still getting examined at the hospital every few months, and they weren't 144 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:04,100 really picking up on it, which isn't their fault, but I wasn't pointing anything out. I kind of would 145 00:14:04,100 --> 00:14:07,880 just lie there crossing my fingers thinking, well, if they haven't noticed, then I'm not going 146 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:16,280 to say. And again, life was feeling good. And I was so scared of sort of, I wasn't even going to 147 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:22,880 blissful bubble, but I, you know, he's just so terrified of going back to that place. So it was at 148 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:30,880 the beginning of 2019 when my bloods had, I was told my bloods had just tipped over the abnormal range. 149 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:36,740 And that's what then, and then I remember breaking down with my oncologist and saying, I knew, I knew, 150 00:14:36,740 --> 00:14:40,500 and I didn't say anything. And he was so lovely. And he said, it's okay, it's still be, we'd still be 151 00:14:40,500 --> 00:14:46,220 doing the same treatment. It would still be, I felt real shame, you know, and guilt that other people 152 00:14:46,220 --> 00:14:53,900 who were so on it and so brave, braver than me and immediately picking up that phone and getting 153 00:14:53,900 --> 00:14:59,180 things checked and facing those fears were maybe not, not doing as well, you know. But of course, you 154 00:14:59,180 --> 00:15:04,840 have to remember that you have four children that you are, you know, looking after and you're 155 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:09,820 presumably trying to keep your head above water as most mums are. Yeah, I think it's keeping your head 156 00:15:09,820 --> 00:15:14,000 above water and just, and just being, I think, when you haven't been able to get a handle on your fear, 157 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:19,660 that you just go into whatever works for you as a coping strategy. So I'd rather, it's for many, 158 00:15:19,660 --> 00:15:26,540 many years rather live with the internal agony of the niggle, is this something then just face it 159 00:15:26,540 --> 00:15:31,200 head on, you know, and that's something I still have to really work with. And was that another 160 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:37,720 primary breast cancer? That was, see, this is again, and I feel that I should know all of this. 161 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:42,820 It's another recurrence and I don't feel like I ever got a clear definitive answer. It was still 162 00:15:42,820 --> 00:15:53,000 the same her to it hadn't mutated, which was great. And it meant that then I had another mastectomy. I 163 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:57,380 went straight on to Cadsila TDM1, which is what I've been on ever since. And it's worked 164 00:15:57,380 --> 00:16:04,320 incredibly well for me. So, and that has felt very manageable, you know, it's very well tolerated 165 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:13,120 for me. And I seem to respond to it very quickly. The tumours in my left breast sort of just really 166 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:20,540 shrank and really responded very well. And like I said, just before we started talking on the PET 167 00:16:20,540 --> 00:16:28,180 scan, I was told I had a tumour in my lung. So I had a mastectomy that year and I had a partial 168 00:16:28,180 --> 00:16:37,700 lobectomy, lung resection or whatever they call it. And but it by miracle that that lung tumour 169 00:16:37,700 --> 00:16:44,740 turned out to be a benign tumour. So in that, so again, it's like, okay, so, you know, that I don't 170 00:16:44,740 --> 00:16:50,860 have a definitive answer about whether that was a primary or a, and maybe again, did I not talk about 171 00:16:50,860 --> 00:16:55,760 cognitive impairment of like, did I not take in what they said? Have I not asked the right person or 172 00:16:55,760 --> 00:17:02,360 the right question? Can I phase asking it now? Not really. I think there are lots of grey areas in 173 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:11,460 cancer. And there's also just so much information to take in, isn't there? And, you know, sometimes 174 00:17:11,460 --> 00:17:17,839 we, I guess, yeah, just can't process all of it. And we deal with things the way that we need to at the 175 00:17:17,839 --> 00:17:22,520 time. So again, for me, I could sort of go, yeah, I'm just going to think that's another, that's a new 176 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:31,980 primary, you know, and because again, my ways, you know, my way of, I try to work so much on my mental 177 00:17:31,980 --> 00:17:38,380 wellness around it. And but the physical side of it, you know, there are so many incredible voices, 178 00:17:38,380 --> 00:17:46,040 for example, online, and I've continually advocate for us knowing our bodies and pushing 179 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:52,000 forward. And I have always really struggled with that because of my own, I mean, not being able to 180 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:58,120 walk that talk. So I kind of go quiet on all of that really. So yeah, there's a lot more I probably 181 00:17:58,120 --> 00:18:06,680 could know about my disease, I guess. Well, we'll move on to that in a moment about your mindset. But 182 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:12,860 first, I just wanted to say this year, 2024, you'll have been living with secondary breast cancer for 183 00:18:12,860 --> 00:18:19,240 10 years. And I just want to take a moment to say how incredible that is just to sit here and take it in 184 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:24,440 because when you're diagnosed with secondary breast cancer, like you and I know, your immediate 185 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:31,060 thoughts often turn to, I'm going to die. And to be sitting here with someone who has been living with 186 00:18:31,060 --> 00:18:37,900 that for 10 years and who is, you know, here and quite well is just something that gives hope to 187 00:18:37,900 --> 00:18:44,940 others. So firstly, you know, thank you. And that's the thing, you know, if I'm, you know, we all 188 00:18:44,940 --> 00:18:50,700 kind of try and find a sense of purpose and make sense of why things have happened. And I can't tell 189 00:18:50,700 --> 00:18:59,440 you what that feeling is like for me on a very personal level, I'm still here. But also, all I 190 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:08,980 wanted 14 years ago, you know, and then 10 years ago was, was that I wanted to know where to look for 191 00:19:08,980 --> 00:19:14,700 stories of long term survival. And that was very, from day one of my primary diagnosis, because I was 192 00:19:14,700 --> 00:19:21,820 so driven by fear. And with the secondary, for me, a secondary diagnosis meant death. I mean, that is 193 00:19:21,820 --> 00:19:27,600 what it meant. There was no gray area. There was no, it was just, and so, you know, that I remember that 194 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:32,680 day very clearly that Friday and I think it was like Friday, the 16th of December or something. And I 195 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:41,640 remember exactly where I was. And it was the darkest, darkest, blackest day. And if I'd known 196 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:49,500 where to look at that point, I think it would have helped, you know, to, yeah. So I'm, you know, I'm 197 00:19:49,500 --> 00:19:58,660 lucky, I'm fortunate. I'm, but I'm, if I, if I can just give someone a little bit of, it's a God, look, 198 00:19:58,660 --> 00:20:03,400 she's still here. She's doing okay. You know, then that's, that's what a brilliant thing to be able to 199 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:09,040 do. I listened to another podcast recently with Chris Hallinger talking to Liz O'Reard and Chris 200 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:15,940 has lived with secondary breast cancer for nearly 15 years. And she was saying, the one thought she 201 00:20:15,940 --> 00:20:23,360 had had was their story is not your story. And I found that really, really helpful because it 202 00:20:23,360 --> 00:20:30,320 perhaps sounds unfair on people who, you know, live for a much shorter time with secondary breast 203 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:34,360 cancer. But when you have secondary breast cancer, you need to listen to the stories of people 204 00:20:34,360 --> 00:20:41,260 who have survived for much longer. And so, yeah, the more people who, I suppose, survive for 205 00:20:41,260 --> 00:20:46,800 longer, the more we can look at for that hope. But, but to hear their story is not your story, I think 206 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:51,480 just is something that allows you to stop comparing yourself to other people and to, to 207 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:56,560 believe and to hope that you will be okay. Yeah. I think the massive difference, I think what's so 208 00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:03,620 important to recognize in that is that 10, 15 years ago, because there wasn't the cancer community 209 00:21:03,620 --> 00:21:07,680 that there is now, there wasn't the online connections and the way we can see into each 210 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:13,320 other's lives and the differences and the fact that cancer is a word, you know, with 200 different 211 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:20,060 sort of versions of an illness, you know, underneath that cancer umbrella. And whereas for 212 00:21:20,060 --> 00:21:26,100 me, 10 years ago, 14 years ago, there were just the scary headlines on the front of the Daily Mail, or 213 00:21:26,100 --> 00:21:30,960 it was the, you know, sitting in the hairdressers and picking up a copy of a magazine and be some 214 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:41,820 tragic story of someone. And that, obviously the tragic heartbreaking stories. Whereas now, I 215 00:21:41,820 --> 00:21:45,840 think, because we, we have all these incredible, if we're fortunate, or if we've made a decision to 216 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:53,240 not even use social media, media, but to observe the way other people's like, you see that the 217 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:59,200 heartbreak, but you also see the hope, but you also see, yeah, every situation is so, so different. I 218 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:04,820 think that's, so I think that's a really important point. And that's one of the many benefits, I 219 00:22:04,820 --> 00:22:10,460 think, of a community like Instagram, a platform like Instagram. Well, I was going to ask you that. 220 00:22:10,460 --> 00:22:15,480 So you originally had your Instagram account, M plus four, which was me and the kids, chatting 221 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:21,820 your, your, your story of motherhood with four children. But a few years ago, you changed it to 222 00:22:21,820 --> 00:22:28,320 limitless_em. Why did you pick that name? And what does it mean to be limitless? I picked that name 223 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:34,360 because I'd begun before that third diagnosis between the second unit, yeah, before the third 224 00:22:34,360 --> 00:22:41,460 diagnosis. I, you know, I really had reached some really dark mental rock bottoms with my inability 225 00:22:41,460 --> 00:22:47,580 to live in the moment with my inability to, to the idea of letting myself feel any joy or happiness 226 00:22:47,580 --> 00:22:53,160 was terrifying. I didn't feel safe. Nothing felt safe. I looking in my diary, even though again on 227 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:59,640 paper, I was doing really well. But the idea of talking about three months time or six months 228 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:04,020 time, I just was in a permanent state of catastrophic thinking. So when I reached a real 229 00:23:04,020 --> 00:23:09,820 rock bottom and I sought some help and I began, you know, some therapy and I began taking a low dose of 230 00:23:09,820 --> 00:23:15,460 an antidepressant and, but at the same time really doing a lot of sort of, and I think stepping into 231 00:23:15,460 --> 00:23:21,900 that platform, because with the M plus four, it was, I mean, I was kind of blogging this and that. So 232 00:23:21,900 --> 00:23:35,040 I wasn't really, hadn't embraced that space. But I think it really was a kind of diagnosis. I started 233 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:39,720 running, which helped hugely. I really was a, I'd connected with people like, you know, Deborah 234 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:45,060 James and the real, just seeing how other people were living. And also, I don't know if you might 235 00:23:45,060 --> 00:23:48,940 have heard the story. I've told quite a lot. So apologies if people have heard it, but what my son 236 00:23:48,940 --> 00:23:54,560 said to me on the day of my third diagnosis, which I can quickly share, which was a pivotal moment. You 237 00:23:54,560 --> 00:24:00,220 know, I'd had the phone call saying, you know, it's tumors in your breast and your lung. And the 238 00:24:00,220 --> 00:24:04,520 triplets were in recept, wherever they were, five years ago, I can't remember, they were at school. 239 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:11,200 And Jake, who was 14, 15 at the time, came home from school unexpectedly early. And my dad was sitting 240 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:16,240 there with tears streaming down his face. My husband at the time, you know, it was, it was one of 241 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:21,120 those kind of everyone, you know, it was just one of those grim, grim moments were all in shock. Jake 242 00:24:21,120 --> 00:24:27,180 arrived home from school, sent something was wrong, sort of went a bit white. He's very quiet, 243 00:24:27,180 --> 00:24:31,400 didn't say much. So I said, right, Jay, let's let's just go for a little walk, walked to the common, 244 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:36,320 walked to the cafe, got a little hot chocolate. And I was kind of like, just calmly just trying to kind 245 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,860 of reassure him, explain. And I was veering between being kind of like, it's okay, you know, 246 00:24:40,860 --> 00:24:45,040 it's gonna be fine. And to then feeling a little bit emotional, but it was just this, and he didn't say 247 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:52,840 much. And as we were walking back, leaving the gate of the common back to autumn, he just said, mum, 248 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:58,660 you've just got to live like it's not there. And I've shared this many times, but it really was I 249 00:24:58,660 --> 00:25:05,760 can't overestimate how pivotal that moment was. It kind of really did stop me in my tracks, 250 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:12,140 literally and emotionally and spiritually. And it felt like a message from I've got to live like 251 00:25:12,140 --> 00:25:20,540 I've got a, and it was a defining moment of, of finding a way of diminishing and shrinking the 252 00:25:20,540 --> 00:25:27,200 impact the emotional impact cancer had on me. So I think that tied in with, with this idea of tapping 253 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,920 into my own potential, which I've always believed in. I've always had that kind of, you know, the self 254 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:37,500 help books, teaching by the bedside, but, but not being able to really, obviously, clearly not 255 00:25:37,500 --> 00:25:41,740 filtering through, wasn't able to put anything into practice. And then the gratitude element, 256 00:25:41,740 --> 00:25:47,180 you know, having reached that peak of just pure terror all the time. And I remember just buying 257 00:25:47,180 --> 00:25:50,660 this postcard, you know, and sticking on my fridge, and it said, interrupt thoughts of 258 00:25:50,660 --> 00:25:55,800 anxiety with gratitude. And that was, so it all sort of began to tie in at the same time. So that 259 00:25:55,800 --> 00:26:01,420 limitless. So it was, yeah, so in a very, a much shorter answer to your question, the limitless_em 260 00:26:01,420 --> 00:26:08,320 handle came about from, it's not that I think I'm limitless. It's more to serve as a daily reminder 261 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:13,620 to myself and that we all are fundamentally limitless. Doesn't mean there's going to be a 262 00:26:13,620 --> 00:26:19,940 happy ever after for everything, but it means that we do have an incredible untapped resilience and 263 00:26:19,940 --> 00:26:26,140 potential and that life can bring joy and it can bring magic. And it is going to be desperately hard 264 00:26:26,140 --> 00:26:34,340 at times, but, you know, all just tied in for me. And it just, it was like taking glasses off. And, and 265 00:26:34,340 --> 00:26:40,580 that's why in the last four or five years, despite some of the darkest, darkest times, I've, I've got 266 00:26:40,580 --> 00:26:47,620 more access to joy now than I've ever had. I mean, I get euphoric over the sort of most tiny things at 267 00:26:47,620 --> 00:26:52,900 times because I feel so, so grateful and that doesn't mean I float around on a cloud. You know, 268 00:26:52,900 --> 00:26:56,760 this morning I felt quite low this weekend, a little bit flat, doesn't mean that I'm skipping 269 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:04,140 along. But when I can just have a little bit of a pivot in my mind. And that's my way of coping. 270 00:27:04,140 --> 00:27:09,860 Doesn't mean I still don't find it hard to mention things that are niggling me. Doesn't mean that I 271 00:27:09,860 --> 00:27:14,560 don't bury my head in the sand. Doesn't mean I don't catastrophize, but I've managed to find a way of 272 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:21,580 turning the volume down, you know. How do you live like you don't have cancer? Well, it's, you know, 273 00:27:21,580 --> 00:27:29,440 right now in a state, as I've been, again, feeling miraculously lucky, I, that's quite easy to do 274 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:37,300 because I have my three weekly targeted chemo. But I see my, as far as I'm aware, sitting here this 275 00:27:37,300 --> 00:27:43,720 minute, you know, my cancer is, there's not there, there's no sign of active disease, you know, my, 276 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:52,420 I've, there's, everything's been very, very stable for, yeah, five years nearly, which feels 277 00:27:52,420 --> 00:27:58,260 like scary to say, but amazing to say. So I haven't had a scan for a long time because, you know, my 278 00:27:58,260 --> 00:28:07,000 oncologist sees me every three weeks, my bloods remain stable and within normal markers and so, 279 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:13,140 you know, there's the, there's, there's, it doesn't, it doesn't mean the anxiety isn't there 280 00:28:13,140 --> 00:28:17,020 in the waiting room, it doesn't mean that I'm, you know, and I celebrated recently, you know, my 281 00:28:17,020 --> 00:28:24,240 hundredth, well, 99 hundredth-ish cycle as we're talking now of the drug I'm on and on, and I can have 282 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:29,160 one thought of how amazing this is incredible, here's to 100 more, or I can have the other voice 283 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:33,700 that goes, oh, well, that means it's going to stop working. But I had that thought at 10 cycles, 20 284 00:28:33,700 --> 00:28:43,230 cycles, 30 cycles, and I'm very aware of what may and will likely or not happen. But it's really 285 00:28:43,230 --> 00:28:49,450 difficult because I think there's this huge grey area when you have secondary breast cancer. You 286 00:28:49,450 --> 00:28:59,470 can have secondary breast cancer and be terminally ill and very close to death, I guess. 287 00:28:59,470 --> 00:29:04,210 But you can also have secondary breast cancer and be, as you say, living like you don't have cancer, 288 00:29:04,210 --> 00:29:11,330 which you sort of have to reset your whole brain because a year and a half ago, I was told I had 289 00:29:11,330 --> 00:29:19,210 secondary breast cancer and I was googling it and it was looking like sometimes you might have a few 290 00:29:19,210 --> 00:29:25,010 years to live, you might be less lucky than that. And then my treatment worked and I had an amazing 291 00:29:25,010 --> 00:29:31,650 surgery and now it's like my oncologist says, well, you're just going to live for a really long 292 00:29:31,650 --> 00:29:37,530 time and you have to reset everything or all your way of thinking and also all those around you 293 00:29:37,530 --> 00:29:45,250 because like you, I've put stuff on social media and so then people think that you're dying and you 294 00:29:45,250 --> 00:29:54,930 just sort of have to think like every decision I make, I factor in cancer. So if someone asks me to do 295 00:29:54,930 --> 00:30:01,190 something, let's say a job or a long-term project, I will think, can I do that? Do I want to do that 296 00:30:01,190 --> 00:30:09,110 because I might not live as long as someone else might? And it comes into all your decisions in that 297 00:30:09,110 --> 00:30:15,850 way, but at some point do you start thinking, like you said, I don't have cancer at all and just make 298 00:30:15,850 --> 00:30:24,190 decisions normally? No, I mean, and it's funny, I don't even use the word cancer, it doesn't come 299 00:30:24,190 --> 00:30:29,390 into my vocabulary again, not because I'm so above, it's because I still have a lot of 300 00:30:29,390 --> 00:30:34,390 attachment to the fear of that word. So I guess the living like it's not there is something that I try 301 00:30:34,390 --> 00:30:40,310 to apply to. It's sort of diminishing the attention on the unwanted and just shifting that 302 00:30:40,310 --> 00:30:48,990 focus. So it's not so much, I mean, I'm very, very mindful of my vocabulary, so I still find myself 303 00:30:48,990 --> 00:30:56,190 thinking, I've been invited to do quite an exciting event abroad in March, which I'm 304 00:30:56,190 --> 00:31:02,090 pinching myself at it, how amazing. And I still think, oh, but still, the next thought is, will I 305 00:31:02,090 --> 00:31:09,230 still be okay in March? It's not now, will I be here in March? Whereas even years ago, in the primary 306 00:31:09,230 --> 00:31:19,030 years, my brain was so, I don't want to say, my brain was so dysregulated, I would go from being in my 307 00:31:19,030 --> 00:31:24,990 mind from being fit and well to lying in a hospice, there would be no middle ground, it was like, well 308 00:31:24,990 --> 00:31:32,830 dying. Whereas now, I don't think, you know, I think, oh, I hope everything's still okay in March 309 00:31:32,830 --> 00:31:42,570 when I, or whenever it might be. So I'm very aware, I'm very, very aware that things can change at any 310 00:31:42,570 --> 00:31:49,090 point. And never, you know, as like anyone, I don't, I'm very fortunate at the moment not to be 311 00:31:49,090 --> 00:31:53,610 living within three monthly scan windows, but I still find that three weekly hospital cycle 312 00:31:53,610 --> 00:32:01,310 sometimes very distressing, even if I know rationally that I'm pretty sure I'm doing okay 313 00:32:01,310 --> 00:32:05,890 still. You know, because you still, in the week after that hospital appointment, I feel like my 314 00:32:05,890 --> 00:32:11,210 mood sort of dips a bit, I'm a bit more irritable with the kids, I'm a little bit edgy. My 315 00:32:11,210 --> 00:32:15,370 treatment's always on a Wednesday at the moment, so I find myself kind of looking at my diary that 316 00:32:15,370 --> 00:32:19,710 week thinking, oh, what if my life's changed on that Wednesday night and Thursday looks 317 00:32:19,710 --> 00:32:24,330 different? And then I come out of the, skip down the steps on the end of that Wednesday, and I think, oh, 318 00:32:24,330 --> 00:32:31,910 I'm feeling this huge kind of appreciation again, and all as well with the world. And then the cycle 319 00:32:31,910 --> 00:32:37,230 begins again, and I'm not comparing that at all to someone who's currently living between scans, 320 00:32:37,230 --> 00:32:45,230 because that's a whole other level of extremes, extreme emotions, but it's just managing where 321 00:32:45,230 --> 00:32:53,750 we're at and also having that compassion to not, you know, because just as friends who haven't gone 322 00:32:53,750 --> 00:32:58,470 through a cancer diagnosis will say to us and put their very well-meaning word till their heads and 323 00:32:58,470 --> 00:33:05,370 say, oh, but you know, I've been laid down with flu, but oh, it doesn't compare. I'm very aware that I am 324 00:33:05,370 --> 00:33:12,290 in this good place, so I'm sensitive, I'm aware of that, but also can't diminish my own, gotta be 325 00:33:12,290 --> 00:33:17,150 mindful that I don't complete your own experience as well, you know. Absolutely, yeah. It's not, 326 00:33:17,150 --> 00:33:24,530 none of it is, all, you know. It's a lot. It's a lot. We'll go back to talking about social media for a 327 00:33:24,530 --> 00:33:29,150 moment, because you've posted a lot about struggling emotionally, and your posts kind of 328 00:33:29,150 --> 00:33:34,430 resonate not only with people with breast cancer, but with anyone, you know, with mums, with people 329 00:33:34,430 --> 00:33:41,490 going through the menopause, with men, women, single parents. What is your relationship like 330 00:33:41,490 --> 00:33:48,050 with social media? Do you use it for support and do you have to have breaks from it? The breaks I take 331 00:33:48,050 --> 00:33:57,530 are normally when I just think, I just have nothing of interest to say, and I don't feel, you know, I 332 00:33:57,530 --> 00:34:02,650 have to, I don't know how to show up unless I can be completely honest. I don't know if it's within 333 00:34:02,650 --> 00:34:08,250 reason, completely honest. So I'm not very good at, unless I have to post something, you know, the 334 00:34:08,250 --> 00:34:14,110 occasional kind of collaboration, I have to post something. I just, so I'll often have bursts of 335 00:34:14,110 --> 00:34:21,010 being on all the time and really feeling all the goodness of that platform, and other times I just 336 00:34:21,010 --> 00:34:27,909 feel I'm too bit too vulnerable. I do feel that Instagram for me personally has been incredibly 337 00:34:27,909 --> 00:34:34,630 positive. I mean, you know, we have to watch how addicted we get, and I never want it to be, you know, 338 00:34:34,630 --> 00:34:40,510 I try to make my, have other things going on, so that if Instagram disappeared tomorrow in terms of 339 00:34:40,510 --> 00:34:45,170 work, in terms of anything, then I'd be okay, you know, I don't think it's healthy to just, but I've 340 00:34:45,170 --> 00:34:49,230 just made the most incredible connections like I'm sure you have. I've been fortunate enough 341 00:34:49,230 --> 00:34:55,350 never to really have much negativity. I wouldn't, I'm very thin-skinned. I don't think I'd cope if I 342 00:34:55,350 --> 00:35:02,670 was getting trolled and getting, you know, I wouldn't want to look on tattle, for example. But 343 00:35:02,670 --> 00:35:07,810 for the connections and the understanding and the feeling of, and I suppose I think I do, I do speak my 344 00:35:07,810 --> 00:35:15,570 truth. So therefore, if, as in my emotional truth, I'm not confrontational, I don't get into heated, 345 00:35:15,570 --> 00:35:22,890 you know, and I, but I speak my emotional truth on there as much as I can, and I, I think, I don't think 346 00:35:22,890 --> 00:35:28,290 that can offend anyone too much really. Yeah. And speaking of making connections, you were close 347 00:35:28,290 --> 00:35:35,850 friends with Debra James, who sadly died from bowel cancer in 2022. What did you learn from Debs? 348 00:35:35,850 --> 00:35:43,110 She was a huge part of my mindset shift around that time that I was talking about with the third 349 00:35:43,110 --> 00:35:48,130 diagnosis. I remember on the very day that I got the phone call from the oncologist saying that I did 350 00:35:48,130 --> 00:35:54,690 have, you know, a new diagnosis. And because they mentioned my lung, Debs was one of the first people 351 00:35:54,690 --> 00:36:02,710 I rang and I was crying and she just said, she was very calm, very immediately there for me on the 352 00:36:02,710 --> 00:36:06,550 phone but said, you've got options, right? I can hear her voice now, you've got options, right? 353 00:36:06,550 --> 00:36:10,210 It's like, they've given you options. Oh, yeah, they're options. Right. And it was just that kind 354 00:36:10,210 --> 00:36:16,250 of, and then we went on to see how her, you know, last month's played out and those last couple of years, 355 00:36:16,250 --> 00:36:20,490 it's like she just wanted options and that's what she talked about. And that again has helped that, 356 00:36:20,490 --> 00:36:28,050 you know, I can have that in my mind. I can have her voice and wisdom and lived experience in my head 357 00:36:28,050 --> 00:36:35,070 alongside my oncologist to when I've sat with him crying, weeping, you know, even in the last year or 358 00:36:35,070 --> 00:36:38,890 two where on paper I've been well but emotionally in a terrible state, so very vulnerable in his 359 00:36:38,890 --> 00:36:43,250 office saying, but what if I get it going on and he's like, if you do, we'll deal with it because we can do 360 00:36:43,250 --> 00:36:48,570 this and we can do this and we can do this. So she taught me and many of us the importance of just 361 00:36:48,570 --> 00:36:53,450 needing to just focus on the step in front rather than again, those of us who are prone to the 362 00:36:53,450 --> 00:37:00,830 catastrophic, you know, thinking and also all of the wonderful things about Debs, the obvious, the 363 00:37:00,830 --> 00:37:06,750 rebellious hope and the spirit and the ability and the determination to find joy and look for joy and 364 00:37:06,750 --> 00:37:12,030 create joy. And that's not something that came naturally to me. Whereas, you know, the 365 00:37:12,030 --> 00:37:17,590 spontaneity that she, with how she lived her life and that's again not something, you know, I've 366 00:37:17,590 --> 00:37:24,650 felt like I always lived a very small life because I was scared of a lot or lacking in confidence and I 367 00:37:24,650 --> 00:37:33,070 think over the last few years I have gone a bit more kind of, okay, you know, and, you know, it's not, I 368 00:37:33,070 --> 00:37:37,470 think when the world is shaking you to such a point, it doesn't feel like a safe place. And when I never 369 00:37:37,470 --> 00:37:45,530 describe my body as having let me down because I don't want to, but when things have gone awry, 370 00:37:45,530 --> 00:37:49,910 where do you put, where's the firm footing so life can feel so fundamentally scary. And I think 371 00:37:49,910 --> 00:37:55,450 that's again something that I'm trying to, that it's safe for me to be happy. Being happy isn't 372 00:37:55,450 --> 00:38:00,430 going to trigger a chain of catastrophic events, which is how I think I used to always live. Even 373 00:38:00,430 --> 00:38:08,470 before cancer. You sadly also lost your friend, Nikki Newman, who co-founded Secondary Sisters 374 00:38:08,470 --> 00:38:15,530 Brilliant Group. Yeah. How do you carry on after a close friend dies from a similar illness to what 375 00:38:15,530 --> 00:38:24,970 you have? Being a really tough time, 2023 felt tough, 2022 felt tough. It's, there's a lot and, 376 00:38:24,970 --> 00:38:32,090 you know, around the time that Nikki died, those of us who knew her and even at the funeral and in the 377 00:38:32,090 --> 00:38:38,250 conversations around that time, we were saying this isn't, it was acknowledging the abnormality 378 00:38:38,250 --> 00:38:44,630 of living, you know, and I'm not in my 30s anymore, you know, I'm older than, I was a lot older than 379 00:38:44,630 --> 00:38:53,710 Nikki was. But that feeling of even at my age, you know, it's not normal to be your friends and close 380 00:38:53,710 --> 00:38:57,950 friends, distant friends to be dying. It's not, it's not normal to see another post up to see and to 381 00:38:57,950 --> 00:39:01,650 be, have another funeral invitation. And we've kind of normalized it because that's the world 382 00:39:01,650 --> 00:39:08,670 we're in. But I think that's what I think a few of us have kind of talked about. And again, it's so 383 00:39:08,670 --> 00:39:14,250 comforting to be able to say, yeah, you know, reach out and do leave that tearful voice note saying, 384 00:39:14,250 --> 00:39:20,410 this is messed up. This isn't normal. This isn't how it's supposed to be. So again, it's 385 00:39:20,410 --> 00:39:29,990 devastating, but I think we just, these bright lights that are being taken from us, you know, I 386 00:39:29,990 --> 00:39:36,170 think when you've gone through what we've gone through, we continue to deal with, we have to. It's 387 00:39:36,170 --> 00:39:43,590 all a cliche, but we have to take some of what they gave because otherwise to not be doing them a 388 00:39:43,590 --> 00:39:49,590 disservice, you know, we have to, you know, my way of giving myself a little kick is going, what would 389 00:39:49,590 --> 00:39:52,810 Deb say? What would Deb say? What would Deb say? What would Deb do? What would Nikki be doing right 390 00:39:52,810 --> 00:39:57,450 now? You know, Nikki would be looking up at the sky. Okay, it's not a sunny day today as we're talking, 391 00:39:57,450 --> 00:40:04,770 but you know, so I think all, I think that's, that's the magic and the very, very, that's the magic of 392 00:40:04,770 --> 00:40:11,790 all of this. Is that we're able to look at life with an intense appreciation and awareness of what, 393 00:40:11,790 --> 00:40:16,650 what matters. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I mean, that's certainly, I didn't know Nikki well, but 394 00:40:16,650 --> 00:40:22,530 that's certainly what I took from, from following her on Instagram is, you know, an appreciation. 395 00:40:22,530 --> 00:40:30,770 And, you know, also when, when someone sadly dies far younger than the average, it also resets your 396 00:40:30,770 --> 00:40:34,810 thinking, doesn't it? I need to think, oh my God, I need to appreciate what I've got and the fact that I 397 00:40:34,810 --> 00:40:41,310 am here and, you know, I can drink this cup of tea or read this book or whatever. So yeah, appreciating 398 00:40:41,310 --> 00:40:48,110 life. So in 2018, you published your memoir, All That Followed, which was a story of cancer, kids 399 00:40:48,110 --> 00:40:53,010 and the fear of leaving too soon. How was the experience of writing that book and how did you get 400 00:40:53,010 --> 00:41:00,770 your publishing deal? It was a dream come true. It was, it was just a dream come true. I'd always 401 00:41:00,770 --> 00:41:05,490 written, but I do, it was very much a kind of a bit of a buried dream and, you know, I've been blogging 402 00:41:05,490 --> 00:41:09,590 like everyone else was in the years before that. I wasn't really on Instagram at that point. I was 403 00:41:09,590 --> 00:41:17,710 writing a column for a multiple parents of twins and triplets magazine. I'd briefly had a column in 404 00:41:17,710 --> 00:41:22,850 Best Magazine, which I always forget about actually. But so the book came about. It was a real 405 00:41:22,850 --> 00:41:30,190 sliding doors of a bit of a Cinderella moment. I was working at the literary agency where I'm now a 406 00:41:30,190 --> 00:41:37,510 client and I was working on reception, you know, wonderful company and it was a sort of quiet end of 407 00:41:37,510 --> 00:41:41,130 the day on a Thursday. And one of the new literary agents came down and was kind of making 408 00:41:41,130 --> 00:41:46,070 conversation on the desk and my colleague, he said, oh, I need some new clients. And my colleague 409 00:41:46,070 --> 00:41:51,370 said, oh, it's a great writer. You should read her blog. And I sort of, you know, probably went bright 410 00:41:51,370 --> 00:41:56,310 red because I was so timid at that point and not very good at pushing myself forward. And he was like, 411 00:41:56,310 --> 00:42:02,130 oh, right. Yeah, send me your, send me your blog. And I did. I sort of, he went upstairs and I remember 412 00:42:02,130 --> 00:42:08,490 looking in the link and then sitting there and going, oh, this is probably just ignore me from now 413 00:42:08,490 --> 00:42:13,010 on. And he came down about an hour later said, wow, what a story and you write really well and why don't 414 00:42:13,010 --> 00:42:18,010 you come up? Why don't you come and have a chat tomorrow? And the next day I went into work and went 415 00:42:18,010 --> 00:42:22,970 and had a chat with him and he said, I really think this could be a book. And he took me on that day and I 416 00:42:22,970 --> 00:42:33,210 wrote and I was lucky enough to get a book deal. And it was, it was from the happiest. I mean, I just, I 417 00:42:33,210 --> 00:42:36,610 mean, and I haven't written another book since I've been trying so hard to write another book. I 418 00:42:36,610 --> 00:42:40,570 dream of writing a book two and a book three and I don't know what it is the resistance. I think I'm 419 00:42:40,570 --> 00:42:45,350 scared. I think I don't quite know that story just needed to come out. So it just tumbled out. Whereas 420 00:42:45,350 --> 00:42:49,350 so much has happened again. And there's so much that I probably really couldn't talk about that. 421 00:42:49,350 --> 00:42:54,970 Whereas I just, that just, it just poured out. It was like a stream of consciousness book really. 422 00:42:54,970 --> 00:43:01,310 And I'm really proud of it. I just hope it's not the one and only, but if it is. Yeah, I mean, the fact 423 00:43:01,310 --> 00:43:05,970 that you even wrote a book at the same time as dealing with cancer and having four children is 424 00:43:05,970 --> 00:43:10,270 pretty amazing in itself and having other work as well. I mean, I was, I was nothing was going to stop 425 00:43:10,270 --> 00:43:16,490 me because it was a dream come true. Yeah. And what about your, your brilliant podcast open with Emma 426 00:43:16,490 --> 00:43:23,190 Campbell? Tell us about that. Oh, so that was a wonderful opportunity that came about. And it, 427 00:43:23,190 --> 00:43:29,430 yeah, season one launched at the beginning of January 23. And it gave me, I'd always again, 428 00:43:29,430 --> 00:43:33,330 everyone does a podcast and I'd always thought I'd love to do a podcast, but I wasn't really sure how to 429 00:43:33,330 --> 00:43:41,830 begin. And I was approached by two producers who said, let's do it. We think you've got a lot to do, to 430 00:43:41,830 --> 00:43:50,910 talk about in chair. And season five is out. And I just feel it's given me, it gave me such a lovely 431 00:43:50,910 --> 00:43:57,490 focus during 2023 when things were still feeling quite emotionally difficult and challenging. 432 00:43:57,490 --> 00:44:02,250 I've found an absolute, even more, it's reinforced that, that love and passion for 433 00:44:02,250 --> 00:44:08,690 conversation and connection and, and hearing each other's stories and just holding space and 434 00:44:08,690 --> 00:44:13,670 realizing how incredible we all are. And, you know, through the lived experience of whatever 435 00:44:13,670 --> 00:44:18,490 we're going through, the wisdom and the nuggets. And so that feels like a real passion. I mean, I 436 00:44:18,490 --> 00:44:26,490 absolutely have big dreams for the podcast. But, you know, whatever, again, what's lovely about 437 00:44:26,490 --> 00:44:31,930 it, just like the book, it doesn't really matter because I'm giving it my all. Those conversations 438 00:44:31,930 --> 00:44:37,590 are there forever. And that's, that's also enough, you know. Who would be your dream guest if 439 00:44:37,590 --> 00:44:41,990 you could have literally anyone in the world? Realistic or not? Well, I've just had one of my 440 00:44:41,990 --> 00:44:49,830 dream guests, the holistic psychologist. So Dr. Nicole Lepera, and she was on my vision board about 441 00:44:49,830 --> 00:44:54,470 a year ago. So I've just recorded with her, which I can't, I'm kind of pinching myself. I mean, 442 00:44:54,470 --> 00:45:01,110 someone like Gabor Marte, you know, there's real kind of mindset, you know, deep thinkers, I think 443 00:45:01,110 --> 00:45:04,570 would be incredible. You know, real conversations about vulnerability, 444 00:45:04,570 --> 00:45:09,770 authenticity, but also, oh, Joe Dispenza. Joe Dispenza would be my absolute dream. So the 445 00:45:09,770 --> 00:45:16,450 neuroscientist and that whole mind body connection. And he talks a lot about, you know, 446 00:45:16,450 --> 00:45:22,670 incredible stories of remission and healing and how it's linked, you know, how the brain can rewire 447 00:45:22,670 --> 00:45:28,310 itself. So that should have been my number one joke. Dr. Joe Dispenza would be my dream podcast 448 00:45:28,310 --> 00:45:34,890 guest. Okay, we'll manifest that for 24 perhaps. And tell us about that. You mentioned a Monday 449 00:45:34,890 --> 00:45:42,310 morning mind reset. How does one reset one's mind when we're feeling a bit off? I think it's, and 450 00:45:42,310 --> 00:45:49,210 again, recognizing when you just can't. So it might be that you need to kind of just write the day 451 00:45:49,210 --> 00:45:54,070 off, you know, I've often, I've become quite good at, you know, if I'm really struggling or feeling 452 00:45:54,070 --> 00:45:58,640 low, or there's things going on that I feel, or my body's just sort of crying out for rest. I 453 00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:04,770 sometimes my body speaks and just says, just stop, you know, and so I will kind of almost take to my bed. 454 00:46:04,770 --> 00:46:10,510 But that's normally, I'm not, that normally means I'm feeling quite low. But today I was just feeling 455 00:46:10,510 --> 00:46:16,310 overwhelmed. I was feeling sort of grumpy a bit, like, like too much for one person to do all those 456 00:46:16,310 --> 00:46:22,430 kind of domestic things. And I, I've really learned, sounds very corny, but I've really 457 00:46:22,430 --> 00:46:27,830 learned to look up, you know, my bedrooms in the loft, there's a VLUX window. I kind of really make a 458 00:46:27,830 --> 00:46:35,770 point of like looking up at the sky. I wasn't feeling I sort of my appearance, like I make, hence 459 00:46:35,770 --> 00:46:40,190 the ridiculous amount of bright colors I'm wearing today. It's like I've become someone who 460 00:46:40,190 --> 00:46:46,150 used to wear a lot of black and a lot of gray. But it might be the social media, Instagram influence of 461 00:46:46,150 --> 00:46:53,850 pops of color. But I think it's important to me that I feel it always makes me feel better if I kind of 462 00:46:53,850 --> 00:46:59,590 just make a bit of an effort or I put the dangly earrings on or the lipstick. It does it. For some 463 00:46:59,590 --> 00:47:03,550 people that isn't the thing, but for me, and I know I'm not alone with that. It really does help lift my 464 00:47:03,550 --> 00:47:09,210 spirit and makes me feel stronger and more connected with the with that limit the side of 465 00:47:09,210 --> 00:47:19,290 myself and makes me feel like a sort of well vibrant person. So I didn't journal today, but I do a lot of 466 00:47:19,290 --> 00:47:25,930 internal thank yous. You know, I kind of even if I'm washing up, I'll kind of like you say the cup of tea, 467 00:47:25,930 --> 00:47:31,030 you know, I kind of tried to bring it back down to the moment. So the present moment of okay this minute 468 00:47:31,030 --> 00:47:38,270 right now, I'm in my kitchen, it's a mess, but you know, how lucky am I and I really don't mean to sound 469 00:47:38,270 --> 00:47:43,790 like it's all skipping, you know, I have many internal voices that don't help me and serve me. 470 00:47:43,790 --> 00:47:48,870 But I always come back to gratitude. I would like to be doing more running than I'm doing because that 471 00:47:48,870 --> 00:47:55,570 always helps with my mental health. And I can't quite seem to push through that but all of those 472 00:47:55,570 --> 00:48:01,750 things. And you've mentioned a few bits of advice already like saying yes to things which I think is 473 00:48:01,750 --> 00:48:06,180 brilliant advice and you've given some advice to the friends and family of someone with cancer. But 474 00:48:06,180 --> 00:48:12,310 if there are any listeners listening today who have perhaps just been diagnosed with cancer 475 00:48:12,310 --> 00:48:20,070 secondary or primary or and who perhaps also have young kids. Is there anything you would say to 476 00:48:20,070 --> 00:48:25,930 them? It's hard because they, you know, anyone is it's going to be feeling how they're feeling and if 477 00:48:25,930 --> 00:48:29,750 it's a very new diagnosis they're going to be feeling every understandable thought going 478 00:48:29,750 --> 00:48:35,410 which is the worst case scenario the fear the what ifs the shock and it's recognizing that you're in 479 00:48:35,410 --> 00:48:42,290 shock. You know when that diagnosis comes your your even if you were kind of half expecting it, you 480 00:48:42,290 --> 00:48:48,050 know, it. That's the moment you're never going to forget but that moment does change and I always say 481 00:48:48,050 --> 00:48:52,770 you know once you get onto the treatment pathway and you know what your routine is I think that's one 482 00:48:52,770 --> 00:48:59,550 positive step where you think okay at least I'm on my way now. I always try to from the very first time 483 00:48:59,550 --> 00:49:06,190 every time I've ever had treatment. I do always I don't ever want to see that my body's let me down or 484 00:49:06,190 --> 00:49:16,450 my body's working against me I always try to think. Of my body is being a responder, you know. And 485 00:49:16,450 --> 00:49:24,030 really really having a vision of myself. Being told how brilliantly I'm doing and how my markers 486 00:49:24,030 --> 00:49:29,770 have down and how the tumors shrunk dramatically or you know how that you know when we sit in that 487 00:49:29,770 --> 00:49:35,410 chemo ward which is such a frightening place but imagining that when you hooked up to the IV drip. 488 00:49:35,410 --> 00:49:44,290 Imagining that what some people view as a toxic poison as a as a bit of a magical kind of you know my 489 00:49:44,290 --> 00:49:51,110 body might respond my body knows what to do with this drug and this treatment. And then I would say 490 00:49:51,110 --> 00:49:59,090 obviously do all of the obvious physical things of resting and but also. Anything that just takes you 491 00:49:59,090 --> 00:50:05,550 out of those thoughts any kind of any positive distractions and also really really believing 492 00:50:05,550 --> 00:50:12,030 there will be moments of lightness again you will have moments where you think. God this minute I'm 493 00:50:12,030 --> 00:50:17,230 okay this minute you know and it's just acknowledging those and trusting that they'll 494 00:50:17,230 --> 00:50:22,330 come and when they do happen just trying to store them somewhere. You know and I think because I 495 00:50:22,330 --> 00:50:27,530 think that's what life is I think life is a collection of moments if we're lucky you know 496 00:50:27,530 --> 00:50:33,750 knowing that in between there's going to be the tricky stuff. Yeah and what about talking to kids I 497 00:50:33,750 --> 00:50:38,770 know your your triplets were very young when you were first diagnosed but you must have had some 498 00:50:38,770 --> 00:50:43,930 conversations with all of your children over the years about cancer. Yeah with Jake first time 499 00:50:43,930 --> 00:50:49,550 around Jake was six so it was very much kind of I think the book Mummy's Got a Lump or Mummy's Lump. 500 00:50:49,550 --> 00:50:54,610 And he was in his Spider-Man costume in the kitchen and you know Olivia's but there'd been loads of 501 00:50:54,610 --> 00:50:59,570 people kind of around and whispered conversations and so I sort of said I began like 502 00:50:59,570 --> 00:51:04,790 that I said oh you might have noticed that you know. You might have noticed us having lots of quiet 503 00:51:04,790 --> 00:51:09,690 conversations or Mummy's Got a Lump it's the classic thing Mummy's Got a Lump and a nasty lump I 504 00:51:09,690 --> 00:51:13,050 think I said but the doctors are going to give me some really strong medicines to make the lump go 505 00:51:13,050 --> 00:51:18,710 away. But Mummy's going to look a bit silly for a while I'm going to lose my hair and it really was 506 00:51:18,710 --> 00:51:25,770 like that it sounds like a sort of textbook script. That was what I said I remember exactly and he just 507 00:51:25,770 --> 00:51:32,290 went okay mum what's it really was what's for dinner. And I remember a month or two later when my 508 00:51:32,290 --> 00:51:37,630 hair fell out and I was always you know I was always kind of self conscious about my bald head I didn't 509 00:51:37,630 --> 00:51:42,950 embrace it and I'd sleep in this kind of when it was shedding and those funny little cap things. And I 510 00:51:42,950 --> 00:51:47,450 remember one morning him sort of yanking I was changing the babies on the carpet and he was 511 00:51:47,450 --> 00:51:53,890 leaping around and he yanked off this cap and we both sort of shrieked. And I remember feeling 512 00:51:53,890 --> 00:52:00,890 really upset because I felt vulnerable it wasn't his fault I felt sort of bad for him. And then second 513 00:52:00,890 --> 00:52:06,350 time around and third time around I think and with yeah I mean like I said I told you the story of when he 514 00:52:06,350 --> 00:52:12,130 was 15 you know and his incredible insight and awareness and with the triplets they have no 515 00:52:12,130 --> 00:52:15,730 recollection of course other than having seen photos for me because they were months old first 516 00:52:15,730 --> 00:52:21,110 time round second time round. Again they were only four or five so they didn't notice that I'd lost 517 00:52:21,110 --> 00:52:29,250 quite a bit of my hair they were nursery at reception and then five years ago. I would have 518 00:52:29,250 --> 00:52:36,030 they knew you know oh yeah my mum is you know having surgery she's having cancer treatment they know 519 00:52:36,030 --> 00:52:40,370 but they sometimes it's a little to be totally honest sometimes it's quite annoying because you 520 00:52:40,370 --> 00:52:44,130 know they're 14 now and I go to the hospital every three weeks and sometimes I'm really knackered 521 00:52:44,130 --> 00:52:49,410 and really kind of fed up and it's like you have any idea you know I kind of want to I could sometimes do 522 00:52:49,410 --> 00:52:55,810 with a little bit more stroking. But no I think they view it as I think in a way I don't know if it's it's a 523 00:52:55,810 --> 00:53:02,150 bit of not confusion but I don't think they're very connected with fear of me not being here and I 524 00:53:02,150 --> 00:53:07,650 remember when because very lucky for them they've seen their mum living in the long term still being 525 00:53:07,650 --> 00:53:14,590 mum managing things. Looking to all intents and purposes well and kind of okay and they see me going 526 00:53:14,590 --> 00:53:21,630 to the hospital they see me come back. You know I remember when Deborah was you know really really 527 00:53:21,630 --> 00:53:27,250 in those last weeks and she was on the news a lot and well that's your friend that's Deborah oh she's 528 00:53:27,250 --> 00:53:35,610 gonna die and I said yes darling but I didn't think you died from cancer. And that was like wow they you 529 00:53:35,610 --> 00:53:39,950 know and then I could think well have I not but I don't feel at this I don't feel like I've needed to 530 00:53:39,950 --> 00:53:45,030 sit them down and say anything and I'm again very very lucky that I haven't and if that day comes then 531 00:53:45,030 --> 00:53:54,690 I will but. I'm sure I'm sure there's buried emotions for them you know that will emerge. Yeah 532 00:53:54,690 --> 00:53:59,830 there's certainly no point trying to try and I don't feel like I need they don't need to be living 533 00:53:59,830 --> 00:54:05,390 with a heightened anxiety. I know that when if we find ourselves watching one of the. You know stand 534 00:54:05,390 --> 00:54:10,010 out to cancer or one of those they'll notice a bit of a side eye and they'll be looking at me and they'll 535 00:54:10,010 --> 00:54:20,970 be but they see me as as. As well and I find that when I'm talking to an anonymous audience so let's say I 536 00:54:20,970 --> 00:54:27,730 could share my feelings quite openly sometimes on social media or on this podcast let's say but. That 537 00:54:27,730 --> 00:54:35,690 when I know that close family are looking sometimes I feel a little bit. Unsure do your kids 538 00:54:35,690 --> 00:54:40,330 look at your social media and when you're sharing really honest opinions about perhaps being very 539 00:54:40,330 --> 00:54:46,810 down and depressed. Are they aware of that and do you ever sort of police your thoughts with them in 540 00:54:46,810 --> 00:54:52,510 mind. Yeah I mean I've that it's a bit of a sticky issue so when they were much younger I would share a 541 00:54:52,510 --> 00:54:56,890 lot more of the baby stuff and the kind of you know and I guess I was the mum with. The cancer and the 542 00:54:56,890 --> 00:55:01,090 triplets and it was all a bit more and obviously I've become much more mindful of that they don't 543 00:55:01,090 --> 00:55:05,070 want that occasionally one or slip through like with their recent birthday and I don't think 544 00:55:05,070 --> 00:55:08,850 they've noticed that I just had to do that real. You know because I just kind of want to mark those 545 00:55:08,850 --> 00:55:13,970 moments but I and occasionally I'll share them on stories and then I know it's gone but I I'm very 546 00:55:13,970 --> 00:55:23,050 mindful about what goes on the grid in terms of my emotions. I think. I think they know they you know 547 00:55:23,050 --> 00:55:29,690 that the Instagram is something that has led to some. It's been a very positive thing for me it's 548 00:55:29,690 --> 00:55:35,990 also led to some lovely opportunities so they know that there's a link to you know in some ways of a 549 00:55:35,990 --> 00:55:42,070 working life in some ways even just from what it's led to even if not directly. So I think they've 550 00:55:42,070 --> 00:55:49,410 understood that I'm sharing a humaneness you know I'm not revealing too much I don't think about them 551 00:55:49,410 --> 00:55:54,510 or their lives or you know and the stuff I do share that might be talking about the challenges of 552 00:55:54,510 --> 00:56:00,050 parenting triplets will be on a podcast or be on a someone else's live and and I think well if the day 553 00:56:00,050 --> 00:56:03,830 comes when they listen to a podcast they still going to hear how much I love them. Yeah of course 554 00:56:03,830 --> 00:56:11,350 you know I hope. I would like to ask you the question that we ask all guests on this podcast which is if 555 00:56:11,350 --> 00:56:17,750 you could see one change in terms of the diagnosis treatment or recording of breast cancer in the 556 00:56:17,750 --> 00:56:25,070 coming years what would it be. Gosh I mean obviously it goes without saying that all 557 00:56:25,070 --> 00:56:32,290 treatments and all advances available to all. I mean that just you know that's kind of so obvious. I 558 00:56:32,290 --> 00:56:38,930 think more examples of people living in the long term you know more of the positive stories not just 559 00:56:38,930 --> 00:56:47,410 within our community but in the in the in the media and kind of you know people being represented. You 560 00:56:47,410 --> 00:56:54,510 know as living like living with what is is more and more a chronic disease for many rather than a than 561 00:56:54,510 --> 00:57:05,230 a. A terminal one you know that would be a wonderful change and and I think a more deeply rooted belief 562 00:57:05,230 --> 00:57:13,330 that life can can still continue and be and be big and full of possibility and expansion despite. 563 00:57:13,330 --> 00:57:21,170 What on paper can seem grim. That would certainly help give a lot more hope to others so thank you for 564 00:57:21,170 --> 00:57:27,770 that and how can people find you where can people find you if they'd like to know more about you. So on 565 00:57:27,770 --> 00:57:36,730 Instagram as you said limitless_em and my podcast open and yeah they're the two two main sources I 566 00:57:36,730 --> 00:57:41,650 think and open is on all the yeah all of the usual platforms yeah. And we'll put the link in the show 567 00:57:41,650 --> 00:57:46,490 notes as well of course Emma thank you so much for joining us on the best cancer now podcast it's been 568 00:57:46,490 --> 00:57:52,010 an absolute pleasure. Thank you it's been a joy. If you enjoyed this episode of the Breast Cancer Now 569 00:57:52,010 --> 00:57:58,210 podcast make sure to subscribe on Apple podcasts Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts please 570 00:57:58,210 --> 00:58:02,990 also leave us a rating or review on Apple Podcasts and perhaps recommend it to someone you think 571 00:58:02,990 --> 00:58:07,930 would find it helpful. The more people we can reach the more we can get Breast Cancer Now vital 572 00:58:07,930 --> 00:58:12,890 resources to those who need them. You can find support and information on our website 573 00:58:12,890 --> 00:58:19,710 breastcancernow.org and you can follow breast cancer now on social media at Breast Cancer Now. 574 00:58:19,710 --> 00:58:25,090 All the links mentioned in this episode are listed in the show notes in your podcast app. Thank you for 575 00:58:25,090 --> 00:58:26,490 listening to the Breast Cancer Now podcast.