There's always a business person getting into sales, not a sales person getting into business. Hmm. So it was a skill I needed to learn, but overall I knew that.

Justin, welcome to the Entrepreneurially podcast. I'm so grateful for your time, and I'm so excited to talk to you today.

No, thank you so much for having me. I'm really, really excited to be here.

So we were chatting a bit before and you're part of the Entrepreneurial Leap Academy, so I'm really, really excited to talk to you about what you've learned in the first two sessions. And you got two more coming up. I think one might be tomorrow, isn't that correct?

Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's tomorrow. So,

Very cool. But before we do that, I kind of wanna talk about your early days. And where I'd like to start is, did you notice growing up at all that you had kind of an entrepreneurial gene or something that like pinged you at all?

Yeah, honestly, and, and I don't, I don't wanna turn off anybody who didn't, who, who could be a phenomenal entrepreneur. But yeah, I was always kinda looking at things, always, not necessarily problem solving, but problem solving. I was always going, why doesn't this exist in the world? Why doesn't that exist in the world? You know? And, and talking about different businesses that I think should exist, that, that would solve problems at a young age. And, and so my dad was always in business, so we just kind of talked about business. So I really think much about it. But yeah, you know, I mean, I did the typical lemonade stands and, and all that kind of stuff, but, but more so it was looking at things that interested me and go out and went, you know, why, why doesn't this exist? So

I love that curiosity entrepreneurs have that. It's like, I used to my bus, my business partner, my first business that I started, we used to always say we couldn't decide if it was a blessing or a curse, because we, our brains would always be saying, why, why don't they have a business for that? Whoever they is. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. Or

How about this hundred percent

Had, had you ever gone into a business and think to yourself, if I were running this, this is what I would do.

Oh, I mean, things as, things as basic as going to the local coffee shop and looking at the line. Right. And you go, this is so inefficient. Like, what, what's their thinking? Totally. You know? And somebody, somebody smarter than me obviously figured this out, but it doesn't make sense to me. Totally. So, yeah. So funny. I know exactly what you're talking about.

I love it. I love it. So, you know, it, you, we in the book, Gino Wickman writes about, you know, should we go to college or not? You did go to college, you went to Michigan State University, you had a degree in packaging and engineering. So what, talk to me, talk to the audience a little bit about your decision to go to college and was it the right decision as you look back and why?

Yeah. No, that's a great question. So for me, it really was my, my parents were big on education. My, my dad got his bachelor's degree in engineering, and then his master's degree in business, his MBA. So, you know, education was huge and to the point where we live, you know, we live in Eastly at Sing and they would take me to Michigan State games and, and always on campus. So that I was excited to go to college. So I, I actually started engineering and I always joke that when, when math became more letters than numbers, I realized that it was not a passion of mine. But, but so I, I stumbled across packaging and I really liked packaging because it was new. Now it's, now it's a really big thing and a lot of people know about it. But back when I was doing it, and I don't really wanna date myself, so I'll just say back when I was doing it, it was, was new. It

Was had adjusted, but

It was, it was new to get into the school of packaging at MSU, I think you had to have like a 2.4 GPA or something. Now it's way higher. Interesting. Now, now the, the kids in the program are probably far smarter than me. But so for me, you know, I had this one course, and I don't want to dwell, but my very first course, it was like, well just check out packaging 1 0 1. I'm like, all right, I'll check it out. And, and, you know, I'll paraphrase the story, but basically, this company was looking for two solutions, and one of 'em was to create this really complex scenario of packaging, and the other was to create something where everybody could see what was going on. So you knew if the product was broken. And so that ability to think outside the box was what really made me like packaging.

And so interesting. So then I went, I went through packaging, did internships and things like that. And honestly, I think my background in the business world is what has helped me kind of bridge the gap between the chaos of, of that visionary kind of personality and recognizing that you can't be that person and run a business. You, you know, you either have to have that integrator, which I didn't realize early on, or you have to be able to have a business mind. Yeah. So, so I think my, my time in, in school and, and even the corporate world really helped with that.

Yeah, it's interesting, you know, early on with the packaging, seeing creative solutions is what entrepreneurs do all the time. So you were flexing that muscle, but then you worked for some major companies like Kellogg. Did you work for Pepsi too? Did I read or is Yep.

Yeah, yeah. So that's

Major corporate stuff. And so, you know, how did that prepare you for entrepreneurship? Or did it?

Yeah, it, it did. So I, I had some great managers in my career and, and so my most recent one when I was with Kellogg, he, he allowed me to figure out my own projects. I was in cost savings, essentially, right? So, so finding efficiencies so that we didn't have to compromise the quality of the product, but increase the profitability for the organization. And, and it got to a point where he let me create my own projects where I would go, Hey, here's what I'm seeing. Here's the impact. I think it could be. And, and work with all the cross-functional teams to prove out that it was a viable solution and, and then bring it to him. He's like, yeah. I go, no, it's, it's, you know, so, so that was really cool. And, and honestly, if I wasn't going to start my own business, I, I loved, I loved working there. I still love packaging. I still have friends in packaging. It's still a lot of fun to me. Interesting. But I just knew I wanted to do my own thing.

So I think it was back in 2014 that you decided to take a leap and you started Yeah. Your first business, if I could have this right, but correct me if I'm wrong, which is an, it's an insurance agency called the Savage Agency, and it was an Allstate insurance agent, correct? Yeah. Talk a little bit about how did that all happen? You're at Kellogg or wherever you were at, and then you were like, I'm gonna go start my own insurance

Agency. Yeah, so my wife, my girlfriend at the time, my wife now, she worked for an insurance agent. And, you know, I said, Hey, I have a great job. I have benefits, I have this, I have that, you know, but I got to know him and I was like, she's like, you could do this. You could have your own agency. She's like, I have no desire to own my own insurance agency. And I, I'll shoot. So fast forward two years and, and I opened one. And so I, I did a lot of research. I, I, you know, I talked to a lot of different companies, but then I also talked to a lot of different agents. Once I kind of figured out that I wanted to go the Allstate route, I met with a lot of agents and, you know, I, I was, I was helped by corporate to meet with a bunch of different agents, and then all of them, I went, okay, who's an agent, you know, that hates Allstate, like that just thinks this is the worst idea on the planet.

And, and I wanted to meet with those individuals too, because I wanted to go, okay, what are, why are the reasons that you don't like it? And, and so from there I went, okay, you know, I, I found a mentor who's a, a great friend of mine to this day. I stood up in his wedding and, you know, I said, Hey, I, I'm gonna move forward with this. You know, he was one of the people I interviewed, the way he was doing his business was similar to the way I wanted to run mine. He said, can I come work for you for three months? You know, get the lay of the land that way if I work for you for three months, go, whoa, this was a huge mistake. Worst case scenario, you know, I took my tail and go back to Kellogg or something. But, but he goes, where are you located? And I said, Lansing, and he's in Grand Rapids. He goes, yeah, if you wanna make the drive, man, come on over. So, so I did that for three months. That worked really well. And then few months after that, I opened up my own agency. Great

Way to test it. I think there's a wonderful lesson there for an entrepreneur. You know, Gino writes in the book about that, that you can actually go work for somebody, maybe even for free, just to test the waters and see if that's something that you actually wanna do. How about, this is something that's popping in my mind because insurance, while, you know, there's so many, it's such an important thing that everybody needs. It is very sales oriented. And so I'm curious, did you, did, was that a shift for you to have to kind of get into prospecting and selling versus what you were doing in the packaging world? Which I don't think was that

No, I mean, there's, there's a little bit of it, right? You know, they'll say Everybody's in sales, right? And, and arguably my children are the best salespeople I've ever met, but

That's for sure.

'cause they always get what they want. So I don't know. They're doing a good job at something. Yeah. But I thought of it, I I was always a business person getting into sales, not a salesperson getting into business. Hmm. So it was a skill I needed to learn, but overall, I knew that there was no way that I was going to generate the, the size and the capabilities of an organization by being the salesperson. Right? Right. So I'm a pretty good sales trainer and, and, and I'm a fair salesperson, but, but really it was, I just needed to prove out that I could sell. I'm, I'm a pretty good, I'm pretty good at client service too. And, and I do that from time to time. But, but me being the sole client service person, me being the sole sales person, it, it was never the, the business plan. So for me it was just really, can I figure this out? Can I learn enough about it to where I can then bring on other people who, who are really good at it, that, that can, that can do that aspect of the business.

Yeah. I love it. Knowing your strengths and being focused on that. And you ran the agency and owned the agency until about 20, 21, I think, just a couple years ago maybe. And you sold it. Yep. And then you started an independent insurance agency called Peninsula Insurance Services. What led to that? And, you know, tell us the story around that.

Yeah, that's a good question. So there were, there were a couple of things. I had some incredible people. One of 'em is still with me, who helped me build the business, right? Like I said, there was no way I could have done it on my own. And, and the trajectory of the business with just some of the, the changes that were being made, I wasn't going to be able to stay on the same course I wanted to be on. So I realized that needed to do something else. And, and to be honest, I looked at all kinds of things. I mean, I looked at staffing services, I looked at, I, I looked at all kinds of businesses where I went, okay, what can, what can we pivot to so that I can still leverage the skills and the processes that, that we've been successful with at Allstate to move into our next business That will hopefully be not, not the last one, but one that, that will, that will last, I guess is, is if that makes any sense.

Yeah. And so then I came across an organization who helped me get an independent agency off the ground. And, and the big thing behind that was we had these great clients at Allstate, who, and, and this happens with any insurance company. It's, it's not specific to Allstate, where for whatever reason, they, they raise rates in a certain sector or with a certain client. And, and just because it, you know, they found out that that's not a profitable situation for them anymore. And so we had these people going, Hey, I love working with you, but I, I can't pay this much, right. When all these other places are saying, oh, it's gonna be this much. And so for us, it was really being able to service our clients better and to maintain relationships that we spent a lot of time in energy building.

Got it. Okay. Makes sense. So now as you've been through, you know, the, having the Allstate and now your own independent or agency, you know, we like to always hear great stories, but we also like to share for an emerging entrepreneur. Yeah. Do you have the story of like, the nightmare, that's what we

Call it. I mean, how much time do you have? Right?

Ah, that's

Great. So one of the, one of the challenges at the beginning is I thought that, you know, insurance is, insurance is insurance. And so I thought that, yeah, right. So I thought that shifting from Allstate to independent, it's like, oh, instead of, instead of selling bagels, we're selling croissants. Cool. They're both, you know, they're both bread products moving on. And it wasn't, it wasn't at all. There were new systems, there were new processes, there were new expectations, there were new relationships, you know, things that we thought would be really quick and efficient ended up taking forever. You know, in, in the beginning, if, if we had someone say I wanted insurance quotes, it would take us six plus hours to quote their insurance. And, and I don't mean because we had other things going on. I mean, because it was just so inefficient and, and we started looking at each other going, oh my gosh, what did we do? Right? This, there's a way, there's a way we can scale if this is what we're working with. So that's kind of the easiest one. I'm sure I could, great.

No, that is so

Perfect. Give it time to think about it. Yeah. But yeah, I mean there's, I, I'd be lying to you if I said I haven't had a million sleepless nights. You know, and it's, I mean, every, every person goes through it. Every business person goes through it. True.

You, you mentioned a few minutes ago that you had a mentor. How important has mentorship been to you and your business career specifically as an entrepreneur? And can you talk a little bit about how the mentor program's working for you with the academy? I

Think it's huge. I, I can confidently say that I wouldn't be anywhere near, I, I would've failed if, if I didn't have the relationships, whether it be with other agents, mentors, anything like that. If, if I would've, if I would've had an ego and said, I can do this on my own, and I don't need anybody else. I know what I'm doing. I would have, Allstate would've failed in its first six months. I have, I'm a thousand percent certain of that. There were a lot of people who I developed relationships with who said like, no, I'm not going to let you fail. And, and without those people, I would've, wow,

That's amazing.

And so, you know, like I talked about, I, I guess before we started, I, I have a group, a group of people that are from the East Lansing area. They get together every month, every six weeks. And we, we just kind of touch base and see what each other's working on. We have different skill sets, different backgrounds, different businesses. So it's been really cool to, you know, bounce ideas off of them. Obviously, when we get together, the structure of it is great, because being a visionary, I lack structure just personality wise, I don't really care for it. I have to force myself to do it. And, and then the, the mentorship where I, I have a coach that when I have challenges, we have, we have set meetings, but I can reach out to them at, at any time. Granted, they're busy, so, you know, they, they don't answer the phone right away, but they get back to me quickly with, you know, just either quick help or, Hey, let's set an appointment to talk.

Yeah. That's the beauty of a mentor is they just help us expedite the problems that we all deal with because they've been through it or they help us see it through a different lens. We talked early on, you may or may not remember, I think it was the first academy, about the six essential traits that each entrepreneur has. And I'm curious what came up for you when you heard them. I'll read 'em to you, you tell me. Oh, thank the word had 'em, visionary, you already mentioned that. Passionate problem solver driven, risk taker, and responsible. So when you heard those, were you like, yeah, yeah, I checked those boxes, or was there anything where you wondered, Hmm. Do I,

No, and I am, I, I give, I give everybody around me credit for, for the success of our organization. I think I'm really fortunate to be, to have found incredible people. That being said, n none of those, none of those qualities strike me as, as, I don't know, arrogant. And so, you know, I, I've had situations in the organization where things go wrong and other people in the organization are, are pointing fingers at somebody else. And I go, Hey, at the end of the day, this is, this is my company, so it's my fault. And, and so that responsibility thing is, is to a fault, which I guess is pretty common. But, and, and I actually had to work through that with my mentor because I was probably taking on too much of it, given a certain scenario we were working through where, where they were saying like, I, I get it. You know, I get, and that's great that you feel that way. It's great that you take that responsibility, but it's, it's not buddy, it's, it's not you on this one.

The others, you know, the others I think are, are pretty true of a lot of people. I mean, risk taker, I guess, you know, risk taker's, the other one that's kind of challenging for a lot of people. And that first risk to start your own thing is the hardest one. Once you, once you do that and you realize that, yeah, it is gonna go, it, it is gonna go sideways on you. Whatever your plan was, you are wrong. And it is not gonna go the way you think it is, but you go. But because of all those other things, because I'm driven, because I'm passionate, because I'm just, you know, dog with a bone kind of thing. If you have those other qualities, you will, you'll stumble, you'll fall down. It's just, you get back up and you keep going. And then taking risks after that aren't as bad because you go, eh, I took this one, it went really bad, and it still works out.

That's so great. Great perspective.

So I think the first one's the hardest. It's easier from there.

I love it. I love it. So are you a partner person? Do you have a partner in your business?

I do not. And it's funny. So I think this is kind of a common story. I've heard it a lot, especially in our group where I've, I've said I am not a partner person because years ago I had a business where I had a partner and it was a train wreck. It was, it was a really, really, really bad scenario. You know, lost lot of money, all that kind of stuff, like everybody tells you, right? And so it, so I go, I'm never doing that again. And then talking, talking in our group, and I can't remember who said it, but essentially it's, you can be a partner person and just have chosen the wrong partner. It's like, ooh. Yeah. I think that's, I think that's what it was actually, now that I think about it. So, so I don't have a partner currently, but, but I think I am, I, I like that aspect of not having all the weight on my shoulders and not being responsible for everything and just being able to go, Hey, here's what I'm good at. Let me go do that very well, and, and let you do what you do very well. So, so I think I am, but I don't currently have one.

Yeah. Interesting. Now we talk about some of the must-dos for early stage entrepreneurs. One of them is work hard, really hard. How does that land with you?

So when I started Allstate, my, my wife could tell you I was there from seven 30 in the morning to 11 o'clock at night for probably the first two years. Because I looked at it as my job from eight to five was to support my team. And that's it. A hundred percent. That's my job, is to make sure that they have what they need to be successful. And then before that, and after that is when I did my job. And so I, I completely agree with that. And, and even to this day, my office hours are a lot more normal.

I, normal, normal to me, I guess probably not normal to the average person, but, but now I only work 60 hours, you know what I mean? But, but even when I'm not in the office, you know, my brain is still going. I mean, you know, it's the, the door of our shower, it looks like a beautiful mind, right? Because I'm making notes while I'm in the shower about things I need to email or, or, you know what I mean? Gotcha. You know, I, right. Yeah. It's like, oh, okay, then I got right. Oh, what if we did? Right. So, and, and my team will joke that I'll send, you know, it'll be 4:00 AM on a Saturday and they'll have emails from me. I don't expect them to look at their emails and, and things like that. But, but you know, I'll wake up in the middle of the night and, and I joke, I'm like, thank God I have such a good marriage. 'cause my wife would be certain I'm cheating on her because it's like, in the middle of the night I'll be on my phone, just, you know, going nuts. Like, no, I'm sending emails to myself 'cause I'm a crazy person.

So, so yeah, I mean, even though I'm not in the office, I, I don't think I ever stopped thinking about the business. Yeah.

Amazing. You talked earlier about this idea of being a visionary and hiring an integrator. And how, how has that showed up for you? Is that something you've done or you think you need to do at some point? Can you share your experience around that?

Yeah, most definitely. That's something we're in the process of. So there's been somebody who's been with me for my, my entire experience through Allstate and Peninsula. And, you know, we've always joked that she's my right hand, but we've never really given her a title 'cause we don't know what the heck title to give her. But, but, but we're working on putting her into the integrator spot. We've just recently started. We really need to focus on some hiring and some rebuilding within our organization just based on some changes we made, gosh, back in April, I think. But, but shifting her into that role and, and she's kind of done parts of it already. I, I think the biggest thing with the integrator is there's a yin and yang to the whole experience. And I, right. I, I was excel spreadsheets for 10 years of my life, right?

With all the packaging and numbers and, you know, cost initiatives. So I love numbers. You know, I I, I have an insane amount of Excel spreadsheets to this day, keeping track of the KPIs in the organization. That's not one of her strong suits, but it doesn't really matter 'cause I don't really care to give it up. So while that's not a typical visionary thing or a typical integrator thing, it works for us because that's how my brain works. Now. She understands the numbers, but she doesn't have the passion for numbers like I do where I, I wake up and I go, oh, that's what I'm gonna do. And then it's like, you see me just, you know, typing all these formulas into Excel, like crazy, trying to figure out things. So, so, so I we're working on that, but I think that's the biggest takeaway talking to my mentor, was that it doesn't have to be like, perfectly how the book says it should be very similar, but if there's things about you that don't fit, you know, what a visionary is, things about them that don't fit what an integrator is, but the two of you fit together really well, that's all that really matters.

Did the two of you take the rocket fuel assessments?

Yeah, we did. And so is that useful for you? I, I already, like, I had taken on enough times over the years. You knew? Yeah. I, I knew me. I think the biggest thing for me, and sorry, I'm kind of spinning on you, but is I didn't think of the things that I did well as being a job and, and, and so total

That's great insight.

And, and, and then I started asking questions because my mentor was like, yes, that that's actually a value add to your organization. And, and I'm like, but I, but like I was talking about in the shower, like, you know, it's like, okay, can you come up with 20 ideas a week that would either create, generate more revenue or increase the, or or increase the bottom line sort of thing, right? And I'm like, I, I do that in the shower like on a Tuesday. What do you mean? Like, that's not that that's, that's not work. I don't have to think about it. That just happens. And, and so talking to other people in my organization about just different things that I do just intrinsically as part of my personality and they go, yeah, I don't wanna do that. Like, oh, okay, cool, then apparently that that's work, just not work for me. So, so there's a lot of that I think, and sorry that wasn't really your question, but I think that was one of my biggest takeaways recently is, is just because it's not work for you doesn't mean it's not a value add to the organization.

So good. That's so good. At what point, you know, we talk about these different stages and you know, you've had now experience so about, you know, eight years or I don't know, something like that, seven, eight years for sure. At what point did you realize the importance of generating cash for the business? The financials being strong?

Oh, I don't day one.

Good for you.

My, yeah, my, I mean I, I worked in the corporate world, so there always had to be rationale for the projects that I was doing. But even before that, like I said, my dad was in the business world, and so we would always talk about things. I mean, even just if we were at a coffee shop and, and it was slow, and you'd look around and you'd be like, how do they pay for this place? Right? And we would, I mean, we'd go, okay, well it's probably $12 a square foot, so this is how much they're paying and then this, and then you have to sell like a thousand cups of coffee every day. Like, we've seen six people walk. You know? So that's always kind of been how my brain works and, and how I was for better or worse, I guess to say groomed that, that those were always like the games I was playing in my mind. So, so to do it for the business was really not natural. Not that big of a deal. Yeah. That

Was natural for you. Goodness. Yeah. I mean, so many entrepreneurs get very excited about their product and they're investing, investing, investing, maybe not putting as much emphasis on sales or when the money from those sales is going to come in, and then they find themselves in a cash crunch. So kudos to you for having that awareness from early on. I have one last question for you, because obviously you're part of the academy, but can you talk about other emphasis that you've placed on coaching and training and mentoring? You know, I read that I think you might be part of an organization called BNI maybe, or were Yep. You know, things like that. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about the value that that brings to you?

Yeah, so I I, anytime I can be around other business owners or, or anybody who's even close to being like-minded, I take advantage of it. So, you know, I was president of our chapter of BNI for a year. It just, it's a, it's a term thing, not that I wanted to be done, but it's, it's a term thing. So I'm still a member of BNI, which is Business Networking International. It's, it's a local networking group. I, I recommend that, but I'm also a member of several groups specific to insurance where, you know, where I find mentors, you know, I, I run in circles, if you will, of agents who are far more successful than me. And, and I just ask questions pure and simple, right? Even things as basic as like, what should I be asking you? Yeah. Because if, if people who are, you know, as successful, more successful than you, whether it's, whether it's the same industry or any other industry, they're gonna be able to teach you things and you're gonna be able to learn things, you're gonna be able to benefit from it. So I, I place so much weight and so much value on relationships where, where people are willing to take you under their wing, whether it's, you know, a, a total mentor thing or just willing to grab coffee with you as, as being a huge reason why I've had any level of success whatsoever.

Oh, great. Well, Justin, thank you for taking the time to chat with me today. I'm so grateful.

Yeah, no, thank you so much for taking the time. I hope people find value in this somewhere. So Yeah,

They, they'll, and, and if anything, please pick up, and I'm sure you have on Justin's absolute humility, I just really appreciate, you know, everything that you've shared, being so open and honest about all the ebbs and flows that this journey has taken on for you. It's been amazing. And, and to all the amazing entrepreneurs out there that are listening today, I gr greatly appreciate you spending time with Justin and me. And as always, I wish you much love and gratitude.