1 00:00:00,450 --> 00:00:03,359 PRODUCER: Please note this podcast contains mention of 2 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:04,679 PRODUCER: child sexual abuse. 3 00:00:13,820 --> 00:00:16,849 SPEAKER: In 2015, the Independent Inquiry into Child 4 00:00:16,850 --> 00:00:19,369 SPEAKER: Sexual Abuse was set up to investigate where 5 00:00:19,370 --> 00:00:21,799 SPEAKER: institutions failed to protect children in their 6 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:22,800 SPEAKER: care. 7 00:00:23,540 --> 00:00:26,449 SPEAKER: The inquiry's final report, published in October 8 00:00:26,450 --> 00:00:29,929 SPEAKER: 2022, laid out a set of powerful recommendations 9 00:00:29,930 --> 00:00:32,599 SPEAKER: to address past failings and protect future 10 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:34,609 SPEAKER: generations of children from abuse. 11 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:38,029 SPEAKER: Recommendations for Change is a five-part 12 00:00:38,030 --> 00:00:41,299 SPEAKER: podcast series from NSPCC Learning examining 13 00:00:41,300 --> 00:00:43,549 SPEAKER: why these recommendations are needed, how 14 00:00:43,550 --> 00:00:46,519 SPEAKER: they'll work if implemented, and what impact 15 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:48,799 SPEAKER: they will have on the prevention of child sexual 16 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:49,800 SPEAKER: abuse. 17 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:54,889 SPEAKER: Episode two: the Importance of 18 00:00:54,890 --> 00:00:55,890 SPEAKER: Data. 19 00:00:59,870 --> 00:01:02,629 PRODUCER: Gathering and analysing data plays a key role 20 00:01:02,630 --> 00:01:04,939 PRODUCER: in understanding the extent of child sexual 21 00:01:04,940 --> 00:01:06,739 PRODUCER: abuse and exploitation. 22 00:01:06,740 --> 00:01:09,079 PRODUCER: The IICSA final report suggests one of the 23 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:11,089 PRODUCER: reasons that the true scale of child sexual 24 00:01:11,090 --> 00:01:13,969 PRODUCER: abuse in the UK is not fully understood is poor 25 00:01:13,970 --> 00:01:15,619 PRODUCER: data collection. 26 00:01:15,620 --> 00:01:18,049 PRODUCER: The report describes the available data as 27 00:01:18,050 --> 00:01:21,019 PRODUCER: presenting a, quote, "confused and 28 00:01:21,020 --> 00:01:22,699 PRODUCER: confusing picture". 29 00:01:22,700 --> 00:01:24,679 PRODUCER: There is "no consistent approach to the 30 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:27,619 PRODUCER: recording of data, including by key statutory 31 00:01:27,620 --> 00:01:30,169 PRODUCER: agencies such as the police and local 32 00:01:30,170 --> 00:01:33,229 PRODUCER: authorities" And without this clear data, 33 00:01:33,230 --> 00:01:35,839 PRODUCER: it is hard to effectively prevent and respond 34 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:37,459 PRODUCER: to abuse. 35 00:01:37,460 --> 00:01:39,919 PRODUCER: The final IICSA recommendations seek to remedy 36 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,079 PRODUCER: these shortcomings by suggesting the creation 37 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,599 PRODUCER: of a single core data set, and it's this 38 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:46,519 PRODUCER: recommendation that we'll be exploring in more 39 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:48,739 PRODUCER: detail in this podcast. 40 00:01:48,740 --> 00:01:51,109 PRODUCER: To begin, it's important to consider what the 41 00:01:51,110 --> 00:01:53,779 PRODUCER: existing data and evidence is telling us about 42 00:01:53,780 --> 00:01:57,199 PRODUCER: the scale of child sexual abuse in the UK. 43 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:59,299 PRODUCER: I put this question to Lisa McCrindle, 44 00:01:59,300 --> 00:02:01,819 PRODUCER: Assistant Director for Policy, Communications 45 00:02:01,820 --> 00:02:03,799 PRODUCER: and Strategic Influence at the Centre of 46 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,529 PRODUCER: Expertise on Child Sexual Abuse, the CSA 47 00:02:06,530 --> 00:02:07,489 PRODUCER: Centre. 48 00:02:07,490 --> 00:02:09,198 LISA MCCRINDLE: The headline statement to remember is 49 00:02:09,199 --> 00:02:10,519 LISA MCCRINDLE: that far more children are sexually 50 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:12,859 LISA MCCRINDLE: abused than we're currently identifying. 51 00:02:12,860 --> 00:02:15,529 LISA MCCRINDLE: So we estimate from survey data — and 52 00:02:15,530 --> 00:02:17,329 LISA MCCRINDLE: it's a range of different robust survey 53 00:02:17,330 --> 00:02:19,519 LISA MCCRINDLE: data — that indicates to us that more 54 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:21,469 LISA MCCRINDLE: than 1 in 10 children will be sexually 55 00:02:21,470 --> 00:02:23,449 LISA MCCRINDLE: abused by the age of 16. 56 00:02:23,450 --> 00:02:25,669 LISA MCCRINDLE: That percentage is much higher for girls 57 00:02:25,670 --> 00:02:28,399 LISA MCCRINDLE: than boys, so 15% of girls and 5% of 58 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:30,589 LISA MCCRINDLE: boys. There is likely to be some 59 00:02:30,590 --> 00:02:33,499 LISA MCCRINDLE: underreporting within the boys there, but 60 00:02:33,500 --> 00:02:36,529 LISA MCCRINDLE: also likely to be overall more abuse 61 00:02:36,530 --> 00:02:38,059 LISA MCCRINDLE: of girls in that context. But, as a 62 00:02:38,060 --> 00:02:40,889 LISA MCCRINDLE: general, kind of, headline: more than 1 63 00:02:40,890 --> 00:02:42,709 LISA MCCRINDLE: in 10 children by the age of 16 would 64 00:02:42,710 --> 00:02:45,169 LISA MCCRINDLE: experience some form of sexual abuse. 65 00:02:45,170 --> 00:02:47,689 LISA MCCRINDLE: So that's really important to remember. 66 00:02:47,690 --> 00:02:49,609 LISA MCCRINDLE: What's really important to remember is 67 00:02:49,610 --> 00:02:52,579 LISA MCCRINDLE: that the vast majority of those children, 68 00:02:52,580 --> 00:02:54,019 LISA MCCRINDLE: their harm won't be identified in 69 00:02:54,020 --> 00:02:55,759 LISA MCCRINDLE: childhood and they won't necessarily be 70 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:57,229 LISA MCCRINDLE: able to tell anybody. 71 00:02:57,230 --> 00:02:58,639 LISA MCCRINDLE: We need to move away from this 72 00:02:58,640 --> 00:03:00,829 LISA MCCRINDLE: expectation that children will tell us 73 00:03:00,830 --> 00:03:02,359 LISA MCCRINDLE: and will be able to tell us — there are 74 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:04,159 LISA MCCRINDLE: so many barriers that prevent them from 75 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,469 LISA MCCRINDLE: doing that — and we as professionals 76 00:03:06,470 --> 00:03:08,299 LISA MCCRINDLE: across a whole range of sectors need to 77 00:03:08,300 --> 00:03:10,759 LISA MCCRINDLE: be more proactive in identifying our 78 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:12,919 LISA MCCRINDLE: concerns and responding to them. 79 00:03:12,920 --> 00:03:15,709 LISA MCCRINDLE: So what we do see from the data available 80 00:03:15,710 --> 00:03:17,932 LISA MCCRINDLE: to us is that pretty much every year 81 00:03:17,933 --> 00:03:20,449 LISA MCCRINDLE: around half a million children will be 82 00:03:20,450 --> 00:03:22,129 LISA MCCRINDLE: sexually abused in England and Wales. 83 00:03:23,180 --> 00:03:24,769 LISA MCCRINDLE: So it's a huge number of children that 84 00:03:24,770 --> 00:03:27,019 LISA MCCRINDLE: are experiencing this harm each year. 85 00:03:27,020 --> 00:03:29,869 LISA MCCRINDLE: And what we're identifying is a 86 00:03:29,870 --> 00:03:32,029 LISA MCCRINDLE: really small proportion; we refer to it 87 00:03:32,030 --> 00:03:34,009 LISA MCCRINDLE: as the tip of the iceberg in terms of the 88 00:03:34,010 --> 00:03:35,329 LISA MCCRINDLE: children that come to the attention of 89 00:03:35,330 --> 00:03:36,839 LISA MCCRINDLE: services. 90 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:38,899 LISA MCCRINDLE: Of that half a million children, around 91 00:03:38,900 --> 00:03:41,959 LISA MCCRINDLE: 2,700 children will end up 92 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:43,519 LISA MCCRINDLE: on a child protection plan for sexual 93 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:44,672 LISA MCCRINDLE: abuse in England and Wales. 94 00:03:45,890 --> 00:03:48,709 LISA MCCRINDLE: In England, about 50,000 children will be 95 00:03:48,710 --> 00:03:51,079 LISA MCCRINDLE: assessed as at risk of sexual abuse. 96 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:52,339 LISA MCCRINDLE: And then in England and Wales, about 97 00:03:52,340 --> 00:03:54,589 LISA MCCRINDLE: 100,000 children... 98 00:03:54,590 --> 00:03:57,139 LISA MCCRINDLE: well offences will be recorded that are 99 00:03:57,140 --> 00:03:58,969 LISA MCCRINDLE: child sexual abuse offences. 100 00:03:58,970 --> 00:04:01,399 LISA MCCRINDLE: So really, across all the measures, we're 101 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:03,169 LISA MCCRINDLE: identifying far less than that that is 102 00:04:03,170 --> 00:04:04,549 LISA MCCRINDLE: actually happening. 103 00:04:04,550 --> 00:04:06,259 LISA MCCRINDLE: Although far more children are being 104 00:04:06,260 --> 00:04:07,849 LISA MCCRINDLE: sexually abused than we're identifying, 105 00:04:07,850 --> 00:04:09,589 LISA MCCRINDLE: we do know that sexual abuse is just as 106 00:04:09,590 --> 00:04:11,749 LISA MCCRINDLE: common as other forms of childhood abuse. 107 00:04:11,750 --> 00:04:14,168 LISA MCCRINDLE: So the survey, again, survey data shows 108 00:04:14,169 --> 00:04:16,459 LISA MCCRINDLE: us that we have really similar levels of 109 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:19,159 LISA MCCRINDLE: child abuse across emotional abuse, 110 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,289 LISA MCCRINDLE: physical abuse and sexual abuse. 111 00:04:21,290 --> 00:04:23,809 LISA MCCRINDLE: And yet in terms of identifying that and 112 00:04:23,810 --> 00:04:25,699 LISA MCCRINDLE: responding to it through plans and 113 00:04:25,700 --> 00:04:28,189 LISA MCCRINDLE: assessments, sexual abuse is really, 114 00:04:28,190 --> 00:04:30,709 LISA MCCRINDLE: really low in comparison to that. 115 00:04:30,710 --> 00:04:33,079 LISA MCCRINDLE: And we need to ask ourselves why is that? 116 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:34,519 LISA MCCRINDLE: What we do know is it's not because 117 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:35,959 LISA MCCRINDLE: there's less of it, it's because we're 118 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:37,549 LISA MCCRINDLE: identifying less of it. And what are the 119 00:04:37,550 --> 00:04:38,809 LISA MCCRINDLE: barriers that are preventing 120 00:04:38,810 --> 00:04:40,729 LISA MCCRINDLE: professionals from doing that? 121 00:04:40,730 --> 00:04:43,519 LISA MCCRINDLE: In the last year's data, we did start to 122 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:45,559 LISA MCCRINDLE: see a slight increase in the number of 123 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,679 LISA MCCRINDLE: assessments of children being at risk, 124 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:50,569 LISA MCCRINDLE: for child sexual abuse. So perhaps we're 125 00:04:50,570 --> 00:04:53,119 LISA MCCRINDLE: seeing, I guess what we might see is kind 126 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:54,919 LISA MCCRINDLE: of green shoots from all the efforts to 127 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:56,779 LISA MCCRINDLE: continually talk about child sexual abuse 128 00:04:56,780 --> 00:04:59,869 LISA MCCRINDLE: and focus on child sexual abuse, starting 129 00:04:59,870 --> 00:05:01,459 LISA MCCRINDLE: to see that come through in more 130 00:05:01,460 --> 00:05:03,769 LISA MCCRINDLE: assessments. So there are indications 131 00:05:03,770 --> 00:05:05,269 LISA MCCRINDLE: that we can make that progress. 132 00:05:05,270 --> 00:05:07,669 LISA MCCRINDLE: And what we see from other areas is that 133 00:05:07,670 --> 00:05:10,039 LISA MCCRINDLE: where professionals feel confident, where 134 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,349 LISA MCCRINDLE: they have the training, where they 135 00:05:12,350 --> 00:05:14,359 LISA MCCRINDLE: recognise that their locality expects 136 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:16,429 LISA MCCRINDLE: these numbers to go up and recognises 137 00:05:16,430 --> 00:05:18,019 LISA MCCRINDLE: that we should be finding more of these 138 00:05:18,020 --> 00:05:21,049 LISA MCCRINDLE: children, and responding to more sexual 139 00:05:21,050 --> 00:05:24,289 LISA MCCRINDLE: abuse, And where we 140 00:05:24,290 --> 00:05:26,389 LISA MCCRINDLE: know that there are services available to 141 00:05:26,390 --> 00:05:28,069 LISA MCCRINDLE: support those children and their families, 142 00:05:28,070 --> 00:05:30,169 LISA MCCRINDLE: we do see an increase in identification 143 00:05:30,170 --> 00:05:33,019 LISA MCCRINDLE: of concerns. So what we do know is that 144 00:05:33,020 --> 00:05:34,579 LISA MCCRINDLE: talking about this, supporting 145 00:05:34,580 --> 00:05:37,009 LISA MCCRINDLE: professionals, providing services, means 146 00:05:37,010 --> 00:05:39,259 LISA MCCRINDLE: that we are getting— we can get better at 147 00:05:39,260 --> 00:05:40,999 LISA MCCRINDLE: identifying and responding to children 148 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:42,649 LISA MCCRINDLE: that have been sexually abused. 149 00:05:42,650 --> 00:05:44,119 LISA MCCRINDLE: I think the other really key thing to say 150 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:45,649 LISA MCCRINDLE: about what do we know about the scale of 151 00:05:45,650 --> 00:05:47,959 LISA MCCRINDLE: child sexual abuse is it varies in terms 152 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,299 LISA MCCRINDLE: of our response. So, our response varies 153 00:05:50,300 --> 00:05:52,789 LISA MCCRINDLE: massively across the country. 154 00:05:52,790 --> 00:05:55,759 LISA MCCRINDLE: So, where you live really does matter 155 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:57,799 LISA MCCRINDLE: in terms of whether your locality, 156 00:05:57,800 --> 00:05:59,509 LISA MCCRINDLE: whether that's children services or 157 00:05:59,510 --> 00:06:01,639 LISA MCCRINDLE: whether it's criminal justice, is likely 158 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:03,919 LISA MCCRINDLE: to be identifying and responding to child 159 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,619 LISA MCCRINDLE: sexual abuse. So again, that consistency 160 00:06:06,620 --> 00:06:08,939 LISA MCCRINDLE: of experiences is really important, and 161 00:06:08,940 --> 00:06:11,269 LISA MCCRINDLE: what we need to look at as services is 162 00:06:11,270 --> 00:06:12,889 LISA MCCRINDLE: how do we get better consistency in 163 00:06:12,890 --> 00:06:14,299 LISA MCCRINDLE: identifying and responding to child 164 00:06:14,300 --> 00:06:15,709 LISA MCCRINDLE: sexual abuse. 165 00:06:15,710 --> 00:06:17,689 PRODUCER: You've highlighted there the level of insights 166 00:06:17,690 --> 00:06:20,209 PRODUCER: that we can already get from the data. 167 00:06:20,210 --> 00:06:22,549 PRODUCER: How can this data be used by professionals to 168 00:06:22,550 --> 00:06:25,579 PRODUCER: improve the response to child sexual abuse? 169 00:06:25,580 --> 00:06:27,679 LISA MCCRINDLE: When we're talking about this to 170 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:29,719 LISA MCCRINDLE: strategic leaders in localities, to 171 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:31,699 LISA MCCRINDLE: managers and to frontline service 172 00:06:31,700 --> 00:06:33,979 LISA MCCRINDLE: professionals, is what this data should 173 00:06:33,980 --> 00:06:35,869 LISA MCCRINDLE: help us to do is to ask questions of our 174 00:06:35,870 --> 00:06:37,639 LISA MCCRINDLE: services. It should help us to ask 175 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,159 LISA MCCRINDLE: questions around, well, would we expect 176 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:41,959 LISA MCCRINDLE: this number to be higher or lower? 177 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:44,119 LISA MCCRINDLE: Has this number increased or decreased? 178 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:45,949 LISA MCCRINDLE: And why do we think that has happened? 179 00:06:45,950 --> 00:06:48,259 LISA MCCRINDLE: Did we do something or stop doing 180 00:06:48,260 --> 00:06:50,329 LISA MCCRINDLE: something? So have we got better at our 181 00:06:50,330 --> 00:06:52,099 LISA MCCRINDLE: training and are we seeing that result in 182 00:06:52,100 --> 00:06:54,019 LISA MCCRINDLE: better identification? 183 00:06:54,020 --> 00:06:56,539 LISA MCCRINDLE: Have we stopped delivering a service and 184 00:06:56,540 --> 00:06:58,279 LISA MCCRINDLE: that's meant that we're not in contact 185 00:06:58,280 --> 00:07:00,259 LISA MCCRINDLE: with particular groups of children? 186 00:07:00,260 --> 00:07:02,119 LISA MCCRINDLE: Are we seeing some children identified 187 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:03,709 LISA MCCRINDLE: more than other children? 188 00:07:03,710 --> 00:07:05,389 LISA MCCRINDLE: And therefore, do we need to look at what 189 00:07:05,390 --> 00:07:06,799 LISA MCCRINDLE: our training is telling us about 190 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:08,389 LISA MCCRINDLE: identifying and meeting the needs of 191 00:07:08,390 --> 00:07:10,519 LISA MCCRINDLE: particular groups of children? 192 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:12,169 LISA MCCRINDLE: So really, I think the data is so 193 00:07:12,170 --> 00:07:13,921 LISA MCCRINDLE: important because it gives us a sense of 194 00:07:13,922 --> 00:07:16,909 LISA MCCRINDLE: how well are we identifying and 195 00:07:16,910 --> 00:07:18,349 LISA MCCRINDLE: responding to children that have been 196 00:07:18,350 --> 00:07:20,479 LISA MCCRINDLE: sexually abused. But then it should be 197 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:22,129 LISA MCCRINDLE: pushing us to ask more questions. 198 00:07:22,130 --> 00:07:23,659 LISA MCCRINDLE: So what do we and don't we know as a 199 00:07:23,660 --> 00:07:25,279 LISA MCCRINDLE: result of this data and where could we 200 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:26,280 LISA MCCRINDLE: find more information out? 201 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:29,377 LISA MCCRINDLE: At the CSA Centre we publish every year a 202 00:07:29,378 --> 00:07:30,979 LISA MCCRINDLE: trends in data update. So, we look at the 203 00:07:30,980 --> 00:07:32,629 LISA MCCRINDLE: latest data and what those trends are 204 00:07:32,630 --> 00:07:34,879 LISA MCCRINDLE: telling us. That's the available public 205 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:36,679 LISA MCCRINDLE: data that's available nationally. 206 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:39,079 LISA MCCRINDLE: Local areas and local agencies can dig 207 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:40,939 LISA MCCRINDLE: into their own data and do much more 208 00:07:40,940 --> 00:07:43,159 LISA MCCRINDLE: analysis and and really unpick. 209 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:45,019 LISA MCCRINDLE: They could do a data audit and they could 210 00:07:45,020 --> 00:07:47,839 LISA MCCRINDLE: do a snapshot and pull out some files and 211 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:49,669 LISA MCCRINDLE: really start to unpick and understand 212 00:07:49,670 --> 00:07:52,279 LISA MCCRINDLE: their data. So while it might sound a 213 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:54,829 LISA MCCRINDLE: little dry, it's incredibly important to 214 00:07:54,830 --> 00:07:57,079 LISA MCCRINDLE: helping us understand the experience of 215 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,629 LISA MCCRINDLE: victims and survivors. Survey data tells 216 00:07:59,630 --> 00:08:02,149 LISA MCCRINDLE: us about who is being harmed, what 217 00:08:02,150 --> 00:08:04,040 LISA MCCRINDLE: context is that harm happening in, 218 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:07,669 LISA MCCRINDLE: at what age are children being harmed and 219 00:08:07,670 --> 00:08:09,289 LISA MCCRINDLE: whether they had a response or not to 220 00:08:09,290 --> 00:08:12,289 LISA MCCRINDLE: that? But then, service response data 221 00:08:12,290 --> 00:08:14,209 LISA MCCRINDLE: is telling us about how are we actively 222 00:08:14,210 --> 00:08:15,679 LISA MCCRINDLE: picking up and responding to this. 223 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:17,689 LISA MCCRINDLE: And so I think data is incredibly 224 00:08:17,690 --> 00:08:19,429 LISA MCCRINDLE: important in helping us understand and 225 00:08:19,430 --> 00:08:20,839 LISA MCCRINDLE: respond to child sexual abuse and it 226 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:22,999 LISA MCCRINDLE: should be driving us to ask questions and 227 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:24,649 LISA MCCRINDLE: make better decisions. 228 00:08:24,650 --> 00:08:27,439 PRODUCER: And thinking about services for victims and 229 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,439 PRODUCER: survivors. The IICSA report says "public 230 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,558 PRODUCER: agencies rely on accurate and detailed data 231 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,259 PRODUCER: to make the best strategic and operational 232 00:08:36,260 --> 00:08:39,168 PRODUCER: responses for the protection of children." What 233 00:08:39,169 --> 00:08:41,509 PRODUCER: does the current landscape of support services 234 00:08:41,510 --> 00:08:44,539 PRODUCER: look like in the UK, and how can we use data 235 00:08:44,540 --> 00:08:47,629 PRODUCER: to improve the availability of these services? 236 00:08:47,630 --> 00:08:49,069 LISA MCCRINDLE: The response that we provide to child 237 00:08:49,070 --> 00:08:51,349 LISA MCCRINDLE: sexual abuse, it doesn't fall within one 238 00:08:51,350 --> 00:08:53,509 LISA MCCRINDLE: particular service's responsibility or 239 00:08:53,510 --> 00:08:55,219 LISA MCCRINDLE: one particular agency. 240 00:08:55,220 --> 00:08:56,719 LISA MCCRINDLE: It's not just the responsibility of 241 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:58,309 LISA MCCRINDLE: criminal justice. It's not just the 242 00:08:58,310 --> 00:09:01,039 LISA MCCRINDLE: responsibility of social work or health. 243 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:02,959 LISA MCCRINDLE: Victims of child sexual abuse need help 244 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,119 LISA MCCRINDLE: from a whole range of different places, 245 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:07,050 LISA MCCRINDLE: and that help will change that they need. 246 00:09:07,051 --> 00:09:08,659 LISA MCCRINDLE: So, the support that victims and 247 00:09:08,660 --> 00:09:10,669 LISA MCCRINDLE: survivors might need, and their families 248 00:09:10,670 --> 00:09:12,769 LISA MCCRINDLE: might need, if they've been sexually 249 00:09:12,770 --> 00:09:15,019 LISA MCCRINDLE: abused will be dependent on what's going 250 00:09:15,020 --> 00:09:17,059 LISA MCCRINDLE: on for them at the time, how old are 251 00:09:17,060 --> 00:09:19,289 LISA MCCRINDLE: they, what the arrangements are around, 252 00:09:19,290 --> 00:09:20,569 LISA MCCRINDLE: you know, if they're children, if they're being 253 00:09:20,570 --> 00:09:22,729 LISA MCCRINDLE: removed from the family or if they're 254 00:09:22,730 --> 00:09:24,199 LISA MCCRINDLE: able to stay with family members. 255 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:26,569 LISA MCCRINDLE: But what impact is all of this happening? 256 00:09:26,570 --> 00:09:28,099 LISA MCCRINDLE: Are they going through criminal justice 257 00:09:28,100 --> 00:09:30,019 LISA MCCRINDLE: processes that will require a different 258 00:09:30,020 --> 00:09:32,989 LISA MCCRINDLE: support service to maybe if they, 259 00:09:32,990 --> 00:09:35,959 LISA MCCRINDLE: you know, are perhaps moving forward 260 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:37,849 LISA MCCRINDLE: and getting older and maybe experiencing 261 00:09:37,850 --> 00:09:40,609 LISA MCCRINDLE: adolescence or their first relationships 262 00:09:40,610 --> 00:09:42,529 LISA MCCRINDLE: or moving into adulthood, perhaps having 263 00:09:42,530 --> 00:09:44,689 LISA MCCRINDLE: their first personal relationships or 264 00:09:44,690 --> 00:09:46,519 LISA MCCRINDLE: serious relationships, maybe even going 265 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:48,049 LISA MCCRINDLE: on to have their own children. 266 00:09:48,050 --> 00:09:49,369 LISA MCCRINDLE: All of these things will present 267 00:09:49,370 --> 00:09:51,349 LISA MCCRINDLE: different needs at different times during 268 00:09:51,350 --> 00:09:53,839 LISA MCCRINDLE: the lifetime of somebody that has 269 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:56,449 LISA MCCRINDLE: experienced and been sexually abused. 270 00:09:56,450 --> 00:09:57,919 LISA MCCRINDLE: It's really important that we understand 271 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:00,289 LISA MCCRINDLE: that services aren't a single thing. 272 00:10:00,290 --> 00:10:02,179 LISA MCCRINDLE: There isn't one service that one agency 273 00:10:02,180 --> 00:10:04,369 LISA MCCRINDLE: can commission that is going to solve the 274 00:10:04,370 --> 00:10:07,609 LISA MCCRINDLE: response that victims and survivors need. 275 00:10:07,610 --> 00:10:08,929 LISA MCCRINDLE: So I think that's a really important 276 00:10:08,930 --> 00:10:10,459 LISA MCCRINDLE: thing for us to understand: that services 277 00:10:10,460 --> 00:10:12,229 LISA MCCRINDLE: aren't homogenous, and our need for 278 00:10:12,230 --> 00:10:14,869 LISA MCCRINDLE: services will vary and differ over a 279 00:10:14,870 --> 00:10:17,239 LISA MCCRINDLE: victim and survivors' lifetime. 280 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:18,799 LISA MCCRINDLE: In terms of the current landscape, what's 281 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,079 LISA MCCRINDLE: been really difficult is that all these 282 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:22,669 LISA MCCRINDLE: services will need to be delivered by 283 00:10:22,670 --> 00:10:25,249 LISA MCCRINDLE: different agencies — so criminal justice 284 00:10:25,250 --> 00:10:27,739 LISA MCCRINDLE: agencies might fund and commission 285 00:10:27,740 --> 00:10:30,589 LISA MCCRINDLE: independent, sexual violence advisors 286 00:10:30,590 --> 00:10:32,689 LISA MCCRINDLE: or victim support services for criminal 287 00:10:32,690 --> 00:10:35,179 LISA MCCRINDLE: justice processes. We also need really 288 00:10:35,180 --> 00:10:36,625 LISA MCCRINDLE: good mental health support for children 289 00:10:36,626 --> 00:10:37,999 LISA MCCRINDLE: and that would be commissioned by the 290 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,549 LISA MCCRINDLE: health teams. And we also need social 291 00:10:40,550 --> 00:10:42,529 LISA MCCRINDLE: workers that are trained and responsive 292 00:10:42,530 --> 00:10:44,629 LISA MCCRINDLE: and understand the different context of 293 00:10:44,630 --> 00:10:46,069 LISA MCCRINDLE: child sexual abuse. 294 00:10:46,070 --> 00:10:47,959 LISA MCCRINDLE: So all of these different services come 295 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:49,339 LISA MCCRINDLE: from different places. So it's really 296 00:10:49,340 --> 00:10:50,929 LISA MCCRINDLE: difficult for us to look at, well, where 297 00:10:50,930 --> 00:10:53,479 LISA MCCRINDLE: all these services and what's available? 298 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:54,829 LISA MCCRINDLE: And obviously all of those are 299 00:10:54,830 --> 00:10:56,359 LISA MCCRINDLE: commissioned differently across the 300 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:58,279 LISA MCCRINDLE: country. That sounds like you're letting 301 00:10:58,280 --> 00:10:59,549 LISA MCCRINDLE: it off and it's just really difficult and 302 00:10:59,550 --> 00:11:01,589 LISA MCCRINDLE: hard to do, but, that doesn't mean that 303 00:11:01,590 --> 00:11:02,939 LISA MCCRINDLE: that needs to be the case. And I think there 304 00:11:02,940 --> 00:11:04,799 LISA MCCRINDLE: are organisations and there are 305 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:06,869 LISA MCCRINDLE: individuals who have responsibility for 306 00:11:06,870 --> 00:11:08,399 LISA MCCRINDLE: making sure that these services are 307 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:10,433 LISA MCCRINDLE: available and what we really need to see 308 00:11:10,434 --> 00:11:13,649 LISA MCCRINDLE: — and there are opportunities to do this 309 00:11:13,650 --> 00:11:16,379 LISA MCCRINDLE: in upcoming legislation — is how do we 310 00:11:16,380 --> 00:11:19,079 LISA MCCRINDLE: build in those expectations and duties to 311 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:20,849 LISA MCCRINDLE: deliver services and make sure that there 312 00:11:20,850 --> 00:11:23,129 LISA MCCRINDLE: is the breadth of service available, but 313 00:11:23,130 --> 00:11:24,779 LISA MCCRINDLE: also, how do we make sure that we hold 314 00:11:24,780 --> 00:11:26,729 LISA MCCRINDLE: people to account on those duties? 315 00:11:26,730 --> 00:11:29,159 LISA MCCRINDLE: So there are key strategic leaders and 316 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:30,719 LISA MCCRINDLE: strategic organisations that have 317 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:32,189 LISA MCCRINDLE: responsibility for commissioning those 318 00:11:32,190 --> 00:11:34,619 LISA MCCRINDLE: core services, whether that's through 319 00:11:34,620 --> 00:11:36,569 LISA MCCRINDLE: integrated care boards or through police 320 00:11:36,570 --> 00:11:37,889 LISA MCCRINDLE: and crime commissioners. 321 00:11:37,890 --> 00:11:39,839 LISA MCCRINDLE: But how are we setting expectations that 322 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,389 LISA MCCRINDLE: a locality will ensure there is a breadth 323 00:11:42,390 --> 00:11:43,949 LISA MCCRINDLE: of services that meets the needs of 324 00:11:43,950 --> 00:11:45,959 LISA MCCRINDLE: victims and survivors in their locality, 325 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:47,339 LISA MCCRINDLE: and that those services are being 326 00:11:47,340 --> 00:11:49,289 LISA MCCRINDLE: delivered and are accessible to those 327 00:11:49,290 --> 00:11:50,759 LISA MCCRINDLE: children and their families. 328 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,219 LISA MCCRINDLE: So there's key bits to that — it's a big 329 00:11:53,220 --> 00:11:54,659 LISA MCCRINDLE: question really — like what are the 330 00:11:54,660 --> 00:11:56,069 LISA MCCRINDLE: services we need? Well, actually they're 331 00:11:56,070 --> 00:11:57,419 LISA MCCRINDLE: wide and varied. 332 00:11:57,420 --> 00:11:59,349 LISA MCCRINDLE: They need to meet the needs of children, they 333 00:11:59,350 --> 00:12:00,629 LISA MCCRINDLE: need to meet the needs of adults, and 334 00:12:00,630 --> 00:12:02,009 LISA MCCRINDLE: they need to meet the needs of the families 335 00:12:02,010 --> 00:12:03,569 LISA MCCRINDLE: of children as well, because we know that 336 00:12:03,570 --> 00:12:05,189 LISA MCCRINDLE: supporting families is one of the key 337 00:12:05,190 --> 00:12:07,109 LISA MCCRINDLE: things we can do to best support children 338 00:12:07,110 --> 00:12:08,789 LISA MCCRINDLE: that have been sexually abused. 339 00:12:08,790 --> 00:12:10,379 LISA MCCRINDLE: But then we need to make sure those services 340 00:12:10,380 --> 00:12:12,269 LISA MCCRINDLE: are there and we need to make sure that 341 00:12:12,270 --> 00:12:13,859 LISA MCCRINDLE: there is accountability on delivering 342 00:12:13,860 --> 00:12:15,209 LISA MCCRINDLE: those services. 343 00:12:15,210 --> 00:12:17,189 LISA MCCRINDLE: So, more broadly, thinking about the 344 00:12:17,190 --> 00:12:18,839 LISA MCCRINDLE: current landscape, some work was done a 345 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:20,639 LISA MCCRINDLE: number of years ago to try and map what 346 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:23,399 LISA MCCRINDLE: the current landscape of services was. 347 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:25,439 LISA MCCRINDLE: Recently, the CSA Centre has been 348 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:27,509 LISA MCCRINDLE: undertaking an update of that work, so 349 00:12:27,510 --> 00:12:29,339 LISA MCCRINDLE: we've been working to to map what we do 350 00:12:29,340 --> 00:12:31,919 LISA MCCRINDLE: know about services. And in coming months 351 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:33,299 LISA MCCRINDLE: we'll be publishing that work, which I 352 00:12:33,300 --> 00:12:35,039 LISA MCCRINDLE: think will be incredibly valuable, 353 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:36,749 LISA MCCRINDLE: valuable to us in terms of what do we 354 00:12:36,750 --> 00:12:38,849 LISA MCCRINDLE: know about the current service provision, 355 00:12:38,850 --> 00:12:40,679 LISA MCCRINDLE: be really valuable to commissioners in 356 00:12:40,680 --> 00:12:43,049 LISA MCCRINDLE: terms of understanding where there is 357 00:12:43,050 --> 00:12:45,029 LISA MCCRINDLE: maybe more service offer and where there 358 00:12:45,030 --> 00:12:47,099 LISA MCCRINDLE: is less service offer, what types of 359 00:12:47,100 --> 00:12:48,599 LISA MCCRINDLE: services are we delivering more of in 360 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:50,219 LISA MCCRINDLE: which we're delivering less of? 361 00:12:50,220 --> 00:12:52,859 PRODUCER: And that piece of research is available on the 362 00:12:52,860 --> 00:12:55,499 PRODUCER: CSA Centre's website, and we'll put a link in 363 00:12:55,500 --> 00:12:57,059 PRODUCER: the podcast show notes. 364 00:12:58,230 --> 00:13:00,539 PRODUCER: Let's turn our attention now to the data 365 00:13:00,540 --> 00:13:03,239 PRODUCER: recommendation proposed by IICSA. 366 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:05,879 PRODUCER: Recommendation one of the IICSA final report 367 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,879 PRODUCER: proposes the creation of a single core data set 368 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,729 PRODUCER: covering both England and Wales to improve 369 00:13:11,730 --> 00:13:14,249 PRODUCER: data being collected by children's social care 370 00:13:14,250 --> 00:13:17,219 PRODUCER: and criminal justice agencies concerning child 371 00:13:17,220 --> 00:13:20,459 PRODUCER: sexual abuse and child sexual exploitation. 372 00:13:20,460 --> 00:13:23,459 PRODUCER: The recommendation suggests that these agencies 373 00:13:23,460 --> 00:13:26,399 PRODUCER: produce consistent and compatible data, which 374 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:28,829 PRODUCER: includes the characteristics of victims and 375 00:13:28,830 --> 00:13:31,919 PRODUCER: alleged abusers such as age, sex and 376 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,859 PRODUCER: ethnicity, and factors that make victims 377 00:13:34,860 --> 00:13:37,949 PRODUCER: more vulnerable to abuse or exploitation. 378 00:13:37,950 --> 00:13:40,409 PRODUCER: It should also say where the child sexual abuse 379 00:13:40,410 --> 00:13:43,229 PRODUCER: and exploitation happened and the context in 380 00:13:43,230 --> 00:13:44,699 PRODUCER: which it happened. 381 00:13:44,700 --> 00:13:47,369 PRODUCER: To learn more about how IICSA's recommendation 382 00:13:47,370 --> 00:13:49,799 PRODUCER: would improve public agencies' approach to data 383 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,829 PRODUCER: collection, I spoke to Kelly Agudelo. 384 00:13:52,830 --> 00:13:54,299 KELLY AGUDELO: Hello, I'm Kelly Agudelo. 385 00:13:54,300 --> 00:13:56,219 KELLY AGUDELO: I am Head of Analysis within the 386 00:13:56,220 --> 00:13:57,969 KELLY AGUDELO: Vulnerability Knowledge Practice Program, 387 00:13:57,970 --> 00:13:58,970 KELLY AGUDELO: VKPP. 388 00:13:59,970 --> 00:14:02,994 KELLY AGUDELO: The VKPP are a body or organisation which 389 00:14:04,500 --> 00:14:06,359 KELLY AGUDELO: tries to improve the policing response of 390 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,119 KELLY AGUDELO: vulnerability. We also have responsibility 391 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,909 KELLY AGUDELO: for national analysis of child sexual 392 00:14:11,910 --> 00:14:13,499 KELLY AGUDELO: abuse and exploitation. 393 00:14:13,500 --> 00:14:16,049 PRODUCER: I began by asking Kelly how data collection 394 00:14:16,050 --> 00:14:18,809 PRODUCER: currently works within the police force. 395 00:14:18,810 --> 00:14:21,779 KELLY AGUDELO: So since 2015, policing 396 00:14:21,780 --> 00:14:24,719 KELLY AGUDELO: has had a network of regional child sexual 397 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,719 KELLY AGUDELO: abuse and exploitation analysts, and 398 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,359 KELLY AGUDELO: this comprises of one analyst per policing 399 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,059 KELLY AGUDELO: region and we have ten policing regions 400 00:14:33,060 --> 00:14:35,219 KELLY AGUDELO: across England and Wales. 401 00:14:35,220 --> 00:14:38,609 KELLY AGUDELO: And the role of that network is to provide 402 00:14:38,610 --> 00:14:40,409 KELLY AGUDELO: the analysis on child sexual abuse and 403 00:14:40,410 --> 00:14:42,629 KELLY AGUDELO: exploitation on a regional level, which 404 00:14:42,630 --> 00:14:44,669 KELLY AGUDELO: then feeds into a national picture so that 405 00:14:44,670 --> 00:14:46,649 KELLY AGUDELO: we can understand actually what is going 406 00:14:46,650 --> 00:14:49,619 KELLY AGUDELO: on within CSA/E across England 407 00:14:49,620 --> 00:14:51,599 KELLY AGUDELO: and Wales. So that's actually been in 408 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:53,130 KELLY AGUDELO: existence for eight years now. 409 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,539 KELLY AGUDELO: Over the past few years we've been working 410 00:14:57,540 --> 00:15:00,569 KELLY AGUDELO: towards achieving that single core data 411 00:15:00,570 --> 00:15:03,089 KELLY AGUDELO: set or what we call the 'totality of 412 00:15:03,090 --> 00:15:05,699 KELLY AGUDELO: police recorded child sexual abuse and 413 00:15:05,700 --> 00:15:07,650 KELLY AGUDELO: exploitation crimes'. 414 00:15:08,690 --> 00:15:12,019 KELLY AGUDELO: We produce on a quarterly basis, an 415 00:15:12,020 --> 00:15:14,899 KELLY AGUDELO: analytical document looking at the scale 416 00:15:14,900 --> 00:15:17,779 KELLY AGUDELO: and nature of police recorded child 417 00:15:17,780 --> 00:15:20,269 KELLY AGUDELO: sexual abuse and exploitation across 418 00:15:20,270 --> 00:15:22,039 KELLY AGUDELO: England and Wales. 419 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:24,709 KELLY AGUDELO: And that allows us to identify, as I say, 420 00:15:24,710 --> 00:15:26,779 KELLY AGUDELO: the scale of child sexual abuse that's 421 00:15:26,780 --> 00:15:29,629 KELLY AGUDELO: being reported and the nature of it. 422 00:15:29,630 --> 00:15:32,659 KELLY AGUDELO: So breaking things down, like, the type 423 00:15:32,660 --> 00:15:35,569 KELLY AGUDELO: of child sexual abuse and exploitation, 424 00:15:35,570 --> 00:15:38,029 KELLY AGUDELO: who our victim survivors are, who the 425 00:15:38,030 --> 00:15:41,569 KELLY AGUDELO: perpetrators are, and also 426 00:15:41,570 --> 00:15:44,569 KELLY AGUDELO: looking at things like how recent the 427 00:15:44,570 --> 00:15:47,269 KELLY AGUDELO: offending has taken place and how quickly 428 00:15:47,270 --> 00:15:49,849 KELLY AGUDELO: victims are to report or not so how recent 429 00:15:49,850 --> 00:15:53,059 KELLY AGUDELO: the offending is, and breaking down 430 00:15:53,060 --> 00:15:54,619 KELLY AGUDELO: the demographics of victims and 431 00:15:54,620 --> 00:15:57,349 KELLY AGUDELO: perpetrators across different types of 432 00:15:57,350 --> 00:15:58,909 KELLY AGUDELO: child sexual abuse and exploitation 433 00:15:58,910 --> 00:16:00,350 KELLY AGUDELO: because it does differ slightly. 434 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:03,919 KELLY AGUDELO: So that is the kind of data that we 435 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:05,269 KELLY AGUDELO: collect. 436 00:16:05,270 --> 00:16:08,029 PRODUCER: How might we be able to use that data to 437 00:16:08,030 --> 00:16:09,859 PRODUCER: respond to CSA? 438 00:16:09,860 --> 00:16:12,469 KELLY AGUDELO: Data is a really important and valuable 439 00:16:12,470 --> 00:16:14,749 KELLY AGUDELO: asset in terms of prevention and 440 00:16:14,750 --> 00:16:17,449 KELLY AGUDELO: enforcement, and I think it's really 441 00:16:17,450 --> 00:16:19,729 KELLY AGUDELO: important for all statutory organisations, 442 00:16:19,730 --> 00:16:21,799 KELLY AGUDELO: and also non-statutory organisations, to 443 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:23,389 KELLY AGUDELO: understand the value of the information 444 00:16:23,390 --> 00:16:25,099 KELLY AGUDELO: that they may hold when, actually, when 445 00:16:25,100 --> 00:16:26,779 KELLY AGUDELO: you put it all together, it gives us a 446 00:16:26,780 --> 00:16:29,779 KELLY AGUDELO: really good picture of what the problem 447 00:16:29,780 --> 00:16:31,969 KELLY AGUDELO: is. And this is the case for all types of 448 00:16:31,970 --> 00:16:36,289 KELLY AGUDELO: crime, but never more so than for CSA. 449 00:16:36,290 --> 00:16:38,299 KELLY AGUDELO: And we can use that data as analysts to 450 00:16:38,300 --> 00:16:41,179 KELLY AGUDELO: understand actually where is offending 451 00:16:41,180 --> 00:16:43,489 KELLY AGUDELO: taking place that's potentially being 452 00:16:43,490 --> 00:16:46,039 KELLY AGUDELO: reported or if we get information from 453 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:47,809 KELLY AGUDELO: partners that doesn't relate to a crime 454 00:16:47,810 --> 00:16:50,719 KELLY AGUDELO: where there is indication that there 455 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:52,129 KELLY AGUDELO: might be offending taking place in a 456 00:16:52,130 --> 00:16:55,549 KELLY AGUDELO: particular location, which gives policing 457 00:16:55,550 --> 00:16:57,529 KELLY AGUDELO: the opportunity to maybe target that 458 00:16:57,530 --> 00:16:59,989 KELLY AGUDELO: location and prevent offending. 459 00:16:59,990 --> 00:17:02,479 KELLY AGUDELO: We ask for information around who our 460 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:04,399 KELLY AGUDELO: victim and survivors are to identify 461 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:06,769 KELLY AGUDELO: repeat victims, or potentially identify 462 00:17:06,770 --> 00:17:08,689 KELLY AGUDELO: victims who may be at risk of child sexual 463 00:17:08,690 --> 00:17:10,789 KELLY AGUDELO: abuse and exploitation. 464 00:17:10,790 --> 00:17:13,009 KELLY AGUDELO: We also look at perpetrator information to 465 00:17:13,010 --> 00:17:14,899 KELLY AGUDELO: understand, actually, do we have 466 00:17:14,900 --> 00:17:18,529 KELLY AGUDELO: perpetrators that are cropping up across 467 00:17:18,530 --> 00:17:21,409 KELLY AGUDELO: multiple locations, 468 00:17:21,410 --> 00:17:23,719 KELLY AGUDELO: across multiple victims, so who are quite 469 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:25,399 KELLY AGUDELO: predatory in nature? 470 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:27,229 KELLY AGUDELO: We use perpetrator information to 471 00:17:27,230 --> 00:17:30,469 KELLY AGUDELO: understand where we might have 472 00:17:30,470 --> 00:17:33,259 KELLY AGUDELO: enforcement opportunities, or 473 00:17:33,260 --> 00:17:34,909 KELLY AGUDELO: opportunities where we can be a bit more 474 00:17:34,910 --> 00:17:36,709 KELLY AGUDELO: proactive around disrupting those 475 00:17:36,710 --> 00:17:38,629 KELLY AGUDELO: offenders from a policing perspective, and 476 00:17:38,630 --> 00:17:40,459 KELLY AGUDELO: therefore trying to remove the harm that 477 00:17:40,460 --> 00:17:42,949 KELLY AGUDELO: they pose to our children. 478 00:17:42,950 --> 00:17:46,189 KELLY AGUDELO: We also look at information relating 479 00:17:46,190 --> 00:17:48,499 KELLY AGUDELO: to the kinds of child sexual abuse that is 480 00:17:48,500 --> 00:17:50,959 KELLY AGUDELO: happening. So, for example, breaking it 481 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,839 KELLY AGUDELO: down to child-on-child or familial, and so 482 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:55,759 KELLY AGUDELO: on, to understand, actually, is that 483 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:57,289 KELLY AGUDELO: threat picture changing? 484 00:17:57,290 --> 00:17:58,639 KELLY AGUDELO: What are we seeing more of? 485 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,009 KELLY AGUDELO: Do we need to focus our activity to kind 486 00:18:01,010 --> 00:18:03,079 KELLY AGUDELO: of reflect where those trends are 487 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,079 KELLY AGUDELO: happening? So if we know, for example — 488 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,029 KELLY AGUDELO: and this is just an example — that, 489 00:18:09,380 --> 00:18:12,169 KELLY AGUDELO: child sexual abuse is mostly happening 490 00:18:12,170 --> 00:18:15,439 KELLY AGUDELO: within the child-on-child context, 491 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:17,809 KELLY AGUDELO: actually, that's a very different 492 00:18:17,810 --> 00:18:20,539 KELLY AGUDELO: enforcement or preventative tactic as 493 00:18:20,540 --> 00:18:23,599 KELLY AGUDELO: opposed to if, for example, you have 494 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:25,880 KELLY AGUDELO: adult-on-child sexual offending. 495 00:18:27,260 --> 00:18:28,909 KELLY AGUDELO: And from a different perspective, in terms 496 00:18:28,910 --> 00:18:31,279 KELLY AGUDELO: of that work with partners as well, it's 497 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:32,779 KELLY AGUDELO: really important to use the data to 498 00:18:32,780 --> 00:18:34,549 KELLY AGUDELO: understand, actually, are there any 499 00:18:34,550 --> 00:18:36,589 KELLY AGUDELO: opportunities to develop bespoke 500 00:18:36,590 --> 00:18:39,469 KELLY AGUDELO: prevention or support services which 501 00:18:39,470 --> 00:18:41,989 KELLY AGUDELO: reflect what's going on in the communities 502 00:18:41,990 --> 00:18:44,209 KELLY AGUDELO: locally? So from that local level as well, 503 00:18:44,210 --> 00:18:45,889 KELLY AGUDELO: it's really important to collect the data 504 00:18:45,890 --> 00:18:47,719 KELLY AGUDELO: and to do the analysis on the data — that 505 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:49,489 KELLY AGUDELO: should be driving a lot of the policing 506 00:18:49,490 --> 00:18:50,869 KELLY AGUDELO: activity. 507 00:18:50,870 --> 00:18:53,839 KELLY AGUDELO: So in terms of the importance of 508 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:57,529 KELLY AGUDELO: data capture, the data should be 509 00:18:57,530 --> 00:18:59,719 KELLY AGUDELO: giving us — across statutory 510 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,119 KELLY AGUDELO: organisations, but specifically for me, 511 00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:04,789 KELLY AGUDELO: from a policing perspective — that is the 512 00:19:04,790 --> 00:19:06,739 KELLY AGUDELO: foundation on which we understand a 513 00:19:06,740 --> 00:19:08,719 KELLY AGUDELO: problem and what is going on. 514 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,629 KELLY AGUDELO: And if we don't have the entirety 515 00:19:11,630 --> 00:19:13,879 KELLY AGUDELO: of a dataset, if we've got patches in our 516 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,729 KELLY AGUDELO: data, we are missing parts of that 517 00:19:16,730 --> 00:19:19,579 KELLY AGUDELO: picture and we can't therefore ensure 518 00:19:19,580 --> 00:19:21,199 KELLY AGUDELO: that our response collectively as 519 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,169 KELLY AGUDELO: statutory organisations reflects what's 520 00:19:24,170 --> 00:19:27,169 KELLY AGUDELO: seen in that picture accurately. 521 00:19:27,170 --> 00:19:29,849 KELLY AGUDELO: So it has real consequences in terms of us 522 00:19:29,850 --> 00:19:32,239 KELLY AGUDELO: being able to develop an accurate response 523 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:33,919 KELLY AGUDELO: to prevent child sexual abuse and 524 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:36,289 KELLY AGUDELO: exploitation. So it's really important in 525 00:19:36,290 --> 00:19:38,119 KELLY AGUDELO: that respect as well. 526 00:19:38,120 --> 00:19:40,369 PRODUCER: So that's why the IICSA recommendation of the 527 00:19:40,370 --> 00:19:42,889 PRODUCER: single core dataset needs to be implemented: 528 00:19:42,890 --> 00:19:45,069 PRODUCER: because it will ensure that picture is complete 529 00:19:45,070 --> 00:19:47,989 PRODUCER: and strategic responses to CSA are 530 00:19:47,990 --> 00:19:50,329 PRODUCER: being based on accurate evidence. 531 00:19:50,330 --> 00:19:52,879 PRODUCER: Kelly, how do we make sure that data being 532 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:54,769 PRODUCER: gathered is accurate? 533 00:19:54,770 --> 00:19:56,333 KELLY AGUDELO: This is a long term issue, unfortunately, 534 00:19:57,440 --> 00:19:59,239 KELLY AGUDELO: with policing data, and I'm sure it's the 535 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:01,609 KELLY AGUDELO: same for other statutory organisations as 536 00:20:01,610 --> 00:20:04,069 KELLY AGUDELO: well. So we know that we've got aspects of 537 00:20:04,070 --> 00:20:06,769 KELLY AGUDELO: data which are much more challenging. 538 00:20:06,770 --> 00:20:08,099 KELLY AGUDELO: I should have said at the beginning that 539 00:20:08,100 --> 00:20:10,529 KELLY AGUDELO: we are due to have an annual, publicly 540 00:20:10,530 --> 00:20:12,899 KELLY AGUDELO: available report on the scale and nature 541 00:20:12,900 --> 00:20:14,399 KELLY AGUDELO: of child sexual abuse, which is due to 542 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,199 KELLY AGUDELO: come out this autumn, so that will be 543 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:17,639 KELLY AGUDELO: publicly available. 544 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:18,989 KELLY AGUDELO: There will be information within that 545 00:20:18,990 --> 00:20:21,239 KELLY AGUDELO: report which details, actually, where we 546 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:23,159 KELLY AGUDELO: have patches in our data. 547 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:24,779 KELLY AGUDELO: But, as an example, we know we've got 548 00:20:24,780 --> 00:20:27,839 KELLY AGUDELO: challenges in our data in relation to 549 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:29,669 KELLY AGUDELO: — and this is referenced in the report as 550 00:20:29,670 --> 00:20:32,579 KELLY AGUDELO: well — the recording of gender, ethnicity 551 00:20:32,580 --> 00:20:35,099 KELLY AGUDELO: and age. So actually us being able to 552 00:20:35,100 --> 00:20:37,246 KELLY AGUDELO: comment on actually who are the victims 553 00:20:37,247 --> 00:20:40,319 KELLY AGUDELO: and survivors who are potentially 554 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:43,379 KELLY AGUDELO: most at risk, for example, it makes 555 00:20:43,380 --> 00:20:45,539 KELLY AGUDELO: it really hard to to comment with a degree 556 00:20:45,540 --> 00:20:47,069 KELLY AGUDELO: of accuracy. 557 00:20:47,070 --> 00:20:49,199 KELLY AGUDELO: In terms of perpetrators, we also have 558 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,599 KELLY AGUDELO: challenges with our data in relation to 559 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,389 KELLY AGUDELO: ethnicity, gender and age. 560 00:20:54,390 --> 00:20:57,539 KELLY AGUDELO: So being able to accurately understand 561 00:20:57,540 --> 00:21:00,989 KELLY AGUDELO: who perpetrators are is a challenge 562 00:21:00,990 --> 00:21:04,019 KELLY AGUDELO: for us. We are working to 563 00:21:04,020 --> 00:21:06,029 KELLY AGUDELO: improve our data quality, so there is lots 564 00:21:06,030 --> 00:21:08,189 KELLY AGUDELO: of work going on within policing to make 565 00:21:08,190 --> 00:21:10,979 KELLY AGUDELO: sure that police officers, when they are 566 00:21:10,980 --> 00:21:12,929 KELLY AGUDELO: capturing that information, that they are 567 00:21:12,930 --> 00:21:15,419 KELLY AGUDELO: able to do that with a degree of accuracy. 568 00:21:15,420 --> 00:21:17,819 KELLY AGUDELO: And that includes making sure that our 569 00:21:17,820 --> 00:21:20,010 KELLY AGUDELO: crime recording systems allow this. 570 00:21:21,270 --> 00:21:22,739 KELLY AGUDELO: We also understand that there are 571 00:21:22,740 --> 00:21:24,749 KELLY AGUDELO: challenges sometimes for the officers 572 00:21:24,750 --> 00:21:27,119 KELLY AGUDELO: taking report, where they may not want to 573 00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:29,129 KELLY AGUDELO: retraumatise the victim, or actually the 574 00:21:29,130 --> 00:21:31,199 KELLY AGUDELO: focus is not actually on obtaining 575 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:32,999 KELLY AGUDELO: particular details for the victim at that 576 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,639 KELLY AGUDELO: point, but it's around ensuring that they 577 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:37,049 KELLY AGUDELO: get them to a place of safety and 578 00:21:37,050 --> 00:21:38,879 KELLY AGUDELO: safeguarding that victim. 579 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:40,619 KELLY AGUDELO: So there are challenges in that respect in 580 00:21:40,620 --> 00:21:43,229 KELLY AGUDELO: terms of the priorities for the officer 581 00:21:43,230 --> 00:21:46,079 KELLY AGUDELO: taking details of the crime report. 582 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,079 KELLY AGUDELO: This all has a knock-on impact in terms 583 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,209 KELLY AGUDELO: of the ability of analysts pull that 584 00:21:51,210 --> 00:21:52,769 KELLY AGUDELO: information and make inferences on the 585 00:21:52,770 --> 00:21:54,959 KELLY AGUDELO: basis of that data. 586 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,539 KELLY AGUDELO: So really important in terms of making 587 00:21:57,540 --> 00:22:00,389 KELLY AGUDELO: sure that data is accurate not only from 588 00:22:00,390 --> 00:22:02,039 KELLY AGUDELO: the perspective of understanding that 589 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:04,169 KELLY AGUDELO: national picture, but actually making sure 590 00:22:04,170 --> 00:22:07,109 KELLY AGUDELO: that victims are seen in our data in a 591 00:22:07,110 --> 00:22:08,759 KELLY AGUDELO: way that they are represented. 592 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:10,589 KELLY AGUDELO: So we know, for example, that there are 593 00:22:10,590 --> 00:22:12,269 KELLY AGUDELO: particular communities that are 594 00:22:12,270 --> 00:22:14,759 KELLY AGUDELO: underrepresented within our data. 595 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:16,319 KELLY AGUDELO: And we don't want that. We want them to be 596 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:18,179 KELLY AGUDELO: visible. We want to understand actually 597 00:22:18,180 --> 00:22:21,029 KELLY AGUDELO: how is CSA/E impacting victims 598 00:22:21,030 --> 00:22:23,009 KELLY AGUDELO: of particular communities. 599 00:22:23,010 --> 00:22:25,379 PRODUCER: And that report that Kelly mentioned in our 600 00:22:25,380 --> 00:22:28,169 PRODUCER: conversation, the National Analysis of Police 601 00:22:28,170 --> 00:22:30,869 PRODUCER: Recording Child Sexual Abuse and Exploitation 602 00:22:30,870 --> 00:22:34,089 PRODUCER: Crimes report, was published in January 603 00:22:34,090 --> 00:22:35,459 PRODUCER: 2024. 604 00:22:35,460 --> 00:22:38,549 PRODUCER: The report uses data collected from 42 605 00:22:38,550 --> 00:22:41,459 PRODUCER: police forces to provide insight into the scale 606 00:22:41,460 --> 00:22:44,369 PRODUCER: and nature of CSA and CSA offending 607 00:22:44,370 --> 00:22:47,549 PRODUCER: across England and Wales in 2022, 608 00:22:47,550 --> 00:22:50,369 PRODUCER: including crime types where these crimes were 609 00:22:50,370 --> 00:22:53,459 PRODUCER: committed and the profiles of both victims 610 00:22:53,460 --> 00:22:55,139 PRODUCER: and perpetrators. 611 00:22:55,140 --> 00:22:57,959 PRODUCER: To conclude, I asked Kelly how close we are to 612 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,779 PRODUCER: achieving the one core dataset outlined in the 613 00:23:00,780 --> 00:23:02,339 PRODUCER: IICSA final report. 614 00:23:02,340 --> 00:23:05,639 KELLY AGUDELO: So, within policing, we have a policing 615 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,309 KELLY AGUDELO: core dataset, which we are working towards 616 00:23:08,310 --> 00:23:10,199 KELLY AGUDELO: and have been working on for the past few 617 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,509 KELLY AGUDELO: years. But we know that the policing 618 00:23:12,510 --> 00:23:14,549 KELLY AGUDELO: picture is just the tip of the iceberg. 619 00:23:14,550 --> 00:23:17,369 KELLY AGUDELO: We know that there's a large amount of 620 00:23:17,370 --> 00:23:19,769 KELLY AGUDELO: underreporting in this area. 621 00:23:19,770 --> 00:23:21,929 KELLY AGUDELO: So there is a lot of work to be done in 622 00:23:21,930 --> 00:23:23,579 KELLY AGUDELO: terms of how we link in with partner 623 00:23:23,580 --> 00:23:25,199 KELLY AGUDELO: agencies to understand what's being 624 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,119 KELLY AGUDELO: reported in to them that hasn't come in to 625 00:23:27,120 --> 00:23:28,799 KELLY AGUDELO: policing. 626 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:30,659 KELLY AGUDELO: There's lots of work needed in that 627 00:23:30,660 --> 00:23:33,749 KELLY AGUDELO: respect. I think it's really important for 628 00:23:33,750 --> 00:23:36,839 KELLY AGUDELO: other statutory organisations, and 629 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:38,489 KELLY AGUDELO: other organisations generally, to 630 00:23:38,490 --> 00:23:41,759 KELLY AGUDELO: understand the value of soft information 631 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:43,499 KELLY AGUDELO: — or intelligence, as we call it within 632 00:23:43,500 --> 00:23:47,009 KELLY AGUDELO: policing. So it may not be that there is 633 00:23:47,010 --> 00:23:48,419 KELLY AGUDELO: a tangible offence that they've 634 00:23:48,420 --> 00:23:50,249 KELLY AGUDELO: identified, for example, but there may be 635 00:23:50,250 --> 00:23:52,769 KELLY AGUDELO: some concerns; but actually it's really 636 00:23:52,770 --> 00:23:54,149 KELLY AGUDELO: important for them to feed that into 637 00:23:54,150 --> 00:23:57,299 KELLY AGUDELO: policing, within the intelligence 638 00:23:57,300 --> 00:23:58,699 KELLY AGUDELO: routes across their local force, because 639 00:24:00,060 --> 00:24:02,609 KELLY AGUDELO: what it does, if you get bits and pieces 640 00:24:02,610 --> 00:24:05,339 KELLY AGUDELO: of information and intelligence, it builds 641 00:24:05,340 --> 00:24:08,129 KELLY AGUDELO: up a picture for the analysts within that 642 00:24:08,130 --> 00:24:10,019 KELLY AGUDELO: force to understand, actually, we've had 643 00:24:10,020 --> 00:24:12,899 KELLY AGUDELO: information from this person about 644 00:24:12,900 --> 00:24:14,789 KELLY AGUDELO: this person or network. 645 00:24:14,790 --> 00:24:16,139 KELLY AGUDELO: And if you layer that with other 646 00:24:16,140 --> 00:24:17,489 KELLY AGUDELO: information that might be coming in, 647 00:24:17,490 --> 00:24:19,319 KELLY AGUDELO: that's really valuable. So I just want to 648 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,479 KELLY AGUDELO: stress that it's not just about reporting 649 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:23,309 KELLY AGUDELO: crime. Obviously, we want to make sure 650 00:24:23,310 --> 00:24:26,789 KELLY AGUDELO: that we improve and increase, the 651 00:24:26,790 --> 00:24:29,849 KELLY AGUDELO: way that child sexual abuse is recorded 652 00:24:29,850 --> 00:24:31,979 KELLY AGUDELO: and reported. But actually, it's all the 653 00:24:31,980 --> 00:24:33,969 KELLY AGUDELO: soft information that sits behind this. 654 00:24:33,970 --> 00:24:35,510 KELLY AGUDELO: So, for example, this suspicious vehicle 655 00:24:35,511 --> 00:24:38,520 KELLY AGUDELO: or I know that this person is using 656 00:24:39,750 --> 00:24:43,439 KELLY AGUDELO: a particular method to groom children. 657 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:44,879 KELLY AGUDELO: All of that is really valuable. 658 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:46,679 KELLY AGUDELO: So I just would urge professionals to 659 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,409 KELLY AGUDELO: think beyond a crime report, but actually 660 00:24:49,410 --> 00:24:50,969 KELLY AGUDELO: all of the soft intelligence that they 661 00:24:50,970 --> 00:24:52,589 KELLY AGUDELO: might be aware of that they don't 662 00:24:52,590 --> 00:24:55,169 KELLY AGUDELO: understand has huge value. 663 00:24:55,170 --> 00:24:57,119 PRODUCER: In our conversation, Kelly explained the 664 00:24:57,120 --> 00:25:00,089 PRODUCER: importance of avoiding gaps in the data. 665 00:25:00,090 --> 00:25:02,219 PRODUCER: I asked Lisa McCrindle what data we are 666 00:25:02,220 --> 00:25:03,959 PRODUCER: currently lacking that would improve our 667 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,479 PRODUCER: understanding of child sexual abuse. 668 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:08,599 LISA MCCRINDLE: What we don't have is a regular 669 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,699 LISA MCCRINDLE: prevalence survey. So we don't have a 670 00:25:10,700 --> 00:25:12,859 LISA MCCRINDLE: regular survey that asks detailed 671 00:25:12,860 --> 00:25:15,049 LISA MCCRINDLE: questions about the experience of sexual 672 00:25:15,050 --> 00:25:16,669 LISA MCCRINDLE: abuse that people have experienced. 673 00:25:16,670 --> 00:25:18,499 LISA MCCRINDLE: We get our data presently... 674 00:25:18,500 --> 00:25:20,269 LISA MCCRINDLE: The best source of the data is from the 675 00:25:20,270 --> 00:25:21,949 LISA MCCRINDLE: regular crime survey for England and 676 00:25:21,950 --> 00:25:24,529 LISA MCCRINDLE: Wales updates, but inevitably that 677 00:25:24,530 --> 00:25:26,269 LISA MCCRINDLE: suppresses some reporting because it's 678 00:25:26,270 --> 00:25:28,939 LISA MCCRINDLE: framed as a crime and lots of people 679 00:25:28,940 --> 00:25:31,279 LISA MCCRINDLE: won't necessarily feel confident to name 680 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:32,599 LISA MCCRINDLE: what happened to them necessarily as a 681 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,269 LISA MCCRINDLE: crime. The most detailed data we have and 682 00:25:35,270 --> 00:25:38,089 LISA MCCRINDLE: that we draw on consistently is the NSPCC 683 00:25:38,090 --> 00:25:40,729 LISA MCCRINDLE: survey that was undertaken in 2009. 684 00:25:40,730 --> 00:25:42,349 LISA MCCRINDLE: That was a wider child maltreatment 685 00:25:42,350 --> 00:25:44,299 LISA MCCRINDLE: survey, so it asked some questions about 686 00:25:44,300 --> 00:25:47,359 LISA MCCRINDLE: sexual abuse but didn't go into detail. 687 00:25:47,360 --> 00:25:49,279 LISA MCCRINDLE: So what we really, really need, and what 688 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,259 LISA MCCRINDLE: would be a great investment in improving 689 00:25:51,260 --> 00:25:53,599 LISA MCCRINDLE: our data, would be a regular prevalence 690 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:55,189 LISA MCCRINDLE: survey on child sexual abuse. 691 00:25:55,190 --> 00:25:57,169 LISA MCCRINDLE: And when I say regular, we're not calling 692 00:25:57,170 --> 00:25:58,756 LISA MCCRINDLE: for it every year, we're talking about 693 00:25:58,757 --> 00:26:00,289 LISA MCCRINDLE: could it be every five years? 694 00:26:00,290 --> 00:26:01,759 LISA MCCRINDLE: Could it be every ten years? 695 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:03,589 LISA MCCRINDLE: This would be a massive improvement on 696 00:26:03,590 --> 00:26:05,599 LISA MCCRINDLE: the current data that we currently have. 697 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:07,249 LISA MCCRINDLE: And then in terms of service data, 698 00:26:07,250 --> 00:26:08,479 LISA MCCRINDLE: there's lots that can be done. 699 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:09,979 LISA MCCRINDLE: There's huge amounts of information that's 700 00:26:09,980 --> 00:26:11,869 LISA MCCRINDLE: collected by services that isn't 701 00:26:11,870 --> 00:26:13,609 LISA MCCRINDLE: necessarily collected in a format that 702 00:26:13,610 --> 00:26:15,529 LISA MCCRINDLE: can be extracted and analysed. 703 00:26:15,530 --> 00:26:16,909 LISA MCCRINDLE: But there are things that could be done 704 00:26:16,910 --> 00:26:19,639 LISA MCCRINDLE: to improve individual agencies' data and 705 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:21,799 LISA MCCRINDLE: their capacity to compare that data with 706 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:23,899 LISA MCCRINDLE: different agencies in their locality. 707 00:26:23,900 --> 00:26:25,549 LISA MCCRINDLE: If there was one thing that we would put 708 00:26:25,550 --> 00:26:28,039 LISA MCCRINDLE: on a data wishlist, if you like, it would 709 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,079 LISA MCCRINDLE: be to improve our understanding about the 710 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,989 LISA MCCRINDLE: relationship between the victim and the 711 00:26:32,990 --> 00:26:34,759 LISA MCCRINDLE: person that has abused them. 712 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:36,859 LISA MCCRINDLE: So that's often missing from data. 713 00:26:36,860 --> 00:26:38,569 LISA MCCRINDLE: If we could get that understanding about 714 00:26:38,570 --> 00:26:40,399 LISA MCCRINDLE: the relationship between the victim and 715 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,139 LISA MCCRINDLE: the person that's abused them, that would 716 00:26:42,140 --> 00:26:45,289 LISA MCCRINDLE: give us huge insights into the context 717 00:26:45,290 --> 00:26:46,999 LISA MCCRINDLE: of that harm that's happening, which 718 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,069 LISA MCCRINDLE: would enable us to think about prioritisation 719 00:26:49,070 --> 00:26:50,359 LISA MCCRINDLE: and response. 720 00:26:50,360 --> 00:26:52,729 PRODUCER: I wanted to end with one final incredibly 721 00:26:52,730 --> 00:26:55,098 PRODUCER: important point from Lisa. 722 00:26:55,099 --> 00:26:56,659 LISA MCCRINDLE: Data is data, and it's really important 723 00:26:56,660 --> 00:26:58,549 LISA MCCRINDLE: to remember that all of those numbers are 724 00:26:58,550 --> 00:27:01,279 LISA MCCRINDLE: children. They're individual children who 725 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:03,499 LISA MCCRINDLE: have experienced sexual abuse, who 726 00:27:03,500 --> 00:27:05,509 LISA MCCRINDLE: somebody has sexually harmed them. 727 00:27:05,510 --> 00:27:07,459 LISA MCCRINDLE: And I think it's really important that 728 00:27:07,460 --> 00:27:08,809 LISA MCCRINDLE: when we are looking at those numbers, we do 729 00:27:08,810 --> 00:27:09,810 LISA MCCRINDLE: remember that. 730 00:27:13,540 --> 00:27:15,825 PRODUCER: Thanks to Lisa McCrindle and Kelly Agudelo. 731 00:27:17,110 --> 00:27:19,599 PRODUCER: You can find links to all the reports mentioned 732 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,179 PRODUCER: in this episode, including the latest edition 733 00:27:22,180 --> 00:27:25,089 PRODUCER: of the CSA Centre's Trends in Data report, 734 00:27:25,090 --> 00:27:26,650 PRODUCER: in the podcast show notes. 735 00:27:28,820 --> 00:27:31,069 PRODUCER: In the next episode of Recommendations for 736 00:27:31,070 --> 00:27:34,969 PRODUCER: Change, we'll be focusing on children in care. 737 00:27:34,970 --> 00:27:37,219 PRODUCER: What does the IICSA final report suggest we do 738 00:27:37,220 --> 00:27:39,289 PRODUCER: to better protect vulnerable looked after 739 00:27:39,290 --> 00:27:40,290 PRODUCER: children? 740 00:27:41,780 --> 00:27:43,969 PRODUCER: If you've been affected by any of the issues 741 00:27:43,970 --> 00:27:46,429 PRODUCER: raised in this podcast, you can reach out to 742 00:27:46,430 --> 00:27:49,579 PRODUCER: the NSPCC Helpline for support, call 743 00:27:49,580 --> 00:27:50,820 PRODUCER: 0808 800 5000 744 00:27:52,700 --> 00:27:56,300 PRODUCER: or email help@nspcc.org.uk. 745 00:27:57,350 --> 00:27:59,809 PRODUCER: This podcast series was produced in Autumn 746 00:27:59,810 --> 00:28:01,369 PRODUCER: 2023. 747 00:28:01,370 --> 00:28:03,379 PRODUCER: All information was correct at the time of 748 00:28:03,380 --> 00:28:05,869 PRODUCER: recording, but the world of child protection is 749 00:28:05,870 --> 00:28:06,870 PRODUCER: ever-changing. 750 00:28:07,250 --> 00:28:10,069 PRODUCER: To stay up to date, visit the NSPCC learning 751 00:28:10,070 --> 00:28:11,170 PRODUCER: website at nspcc.org.uk/learning.