PRODUCER: Please note this podcast contains mention of
PRODUCER: child sexual abuse.
SPEAKER: In 2015, the Independent Inquiry into Child
SPEAKER: Sexual Abuse was set up to investigate where
SPEAKER: institutions failed to protect children in their
SPEAKER: care.
SPEAKER: The inquiry's final report, published in October
SPEAKER: 2022, laid out a set of powerful recommendations
SPEAKER: to address past failings and protect future
SPEAKER: generations of children from abuse.
SPEAKER: Recommendations for Change is a five-part
SPEAKER: podcast series from NSPCC Learning examining
SPEAKER: why these recommendations are needed, how
SPEAKER: they'll work if implemented, and what impact
SPEAKER: they will have on the prevention of child sexual
SPEAKER: abuse.
SPEAKER: Episode two: the Importance of
SPEAKER: Data.
PRODUCER: Gathering and analysing data plays a key role
PRODUCER: in understanding the extent of child sexual
PRODUCER: abuse and exploitation.
PRODUCER: The IICSA final report suggests one of the
PRODUCER: reasons that the true scale of child sexual
PRODUCER: abuse in the UK is not fully understood is poor
PRODUCER: data collection.
PRODUCER: The report describes the available data as
PRODUCER: presenting a, quote, "confused and
PRODUCER: confusing picture".
PRODUCER: There is "no consistent approach to the
PRODUCER: recording of data, including by key statutory
PRODUCER: agencies such as the police and local
PRODUCER: authorities" And without this clear data,
PRODUCER: it is hard to effectively prevent and respond
PRODUCER: to abuse.
PRODUCER: The final IICSA recommendations seek to remedy
PRODUCER: these shortcomings by suggesting the creation
PRODUCER: of a single core data set, and it's this
PRODUCER: recommendation that we'll be exploring in more
PRODUCER: detail in this podcast.
PRODUCER: To begin, it's important to consider what the
PRODUCER: existing data and evidence is telling us about
PRODUCER: the scale of child sexual abuse in the UK.
PRODUCER: I put this question to Lisa McCrindle,
PRODUCER: Assistant Director for Policy, Communications
PRODUCER: and Strategic Influence at the Centre of
PRODUCER: Expertise on Child Sexual Abuse, the CSA
PRODUCER: Centre.
LISA MCCRINDLE: The headline statement to remember is
LISA MCCRINDLE: that far more children are sexually
LISA MCCRINDLE: abused than we're currently identifying.
LISA MCCRINDLE: So we estimate from survey data — and
LISA MCCRINDLE: it's a range of different robust survey
LISA MCCRINDLE: data — that indicates to us that more
LISA MCCRINDLE: than 1 in 10 children will be sexually
LISA MCCRINDLE: abused by the age of 16.
LISA MCCRINDLE: That percentage is much higher for girls
LISA MCCRINDLE: than boys, so 15% of girls and 5% of
LISA MCCRINDLE: boys. There is likely to be some
LISA MCCRINDLE: underreporting within the boys there, but
LISA MCCRINDLE: also likely to be overall more abuse
LISA MCCRINDLE: of girls in that context. But, as a
LISA MCCRINDLE: general, kind of, headline: more than 1
LISA MCCRINDLE: in 10 children by the age of 16 would
LISA MCCRINDLE: experience some form of sexual abuse.
LISA MCCRINDLE: So that's really important to remember.
LISA MCCRINDLE: What's really important to remember is
LISA MCCRINDLE: that the vast majority of those children,
LISA MCCRINDLE: their harm won't be identified in
LISA MCCRINDLE: childhood and they won't necessarily be
LISA MCCRINDLE: able to tell anybody.
LISA MCCRINDLE: We need to move away from this
LISA MCCRINDLE: expectation that children will tell us
LISA MCCRINDLE: and will be able to tell us — there are
LISA MCCRINDLE: so many barriers that prevent them from
LISA MCCRINDLE: doing that — and we as professionals
LISA MCCRINDLE: across a whole range of sectors need to
LISA MCCRINDLE: be more proactive in identifying our
LISA MCCRINDLE: concerns and responding to them.
LISA MCCRINDLE: So what we do see from the data available
LISA MCCRINDLE: to us is that pretty much every year
LISA MCCRINDLE: around half a million children will be
LISA MCCRINDLE: sexually abused in England and Wales.
LISA MCCRINDLE: So it's a huge number of children that
LISA MCCRINDLE: are experiencing this harm each year.
LISA MCCRINDLE: And what we're identifying is a
LISA MCCRINDLE: really small proportion; we refer to it
LISA MCCRINDLE: as the tip of the iceberg in terms of the
LISA MCCRINDLE: children that come to the attention of
LISA MCCRINDLE: services.
LISA MCCRINDLE: Of that half a million children, around
LISA MCCRINDLE: 2,700 children will end up
LISA MCCRINDLE: on a child protection plan for sexual
LISA MCCRINDLE: abuse in England and Wales.
LISA MCCRINDLE: In England, about 50,000 children will be
LISA MCCRINDLE: assessed as at risk of sexual abuse.
LISA MCCRINDLE: And then in England and Wales, about
LISA MCCRINDLE: 100,000 children...
LISA MCCRINDLE: well offences will be recorded that are
LISA MCCRINDLE: child sexual abuse offences.
LISA MCCRINDLE: So really, across all the measures, we're
LISA MCCRINDLE: identifying far less than that that is
LISA MCCRINDLE: actually happening.
LISA MCCRINDLE: Although far more children are being
LISA MCCRINDLE: sexually abused than we're identifying,
LISA MCCRINDLE: we do know that sexual abuse is just as
LISA MCCRINDLE: common as other forms of childhood abuse.
LISA MCCRINDLE: So the survey, again, survey data shows
LISA MCCRINDLE: us that we have really similar levels of
LISA MCCRINDLE: child abuse across emotional abuse,
LISA MCCRINDLE: physical abuse and sexual abuse.
LISA MCCRINDLE: And yet in terms of identifying that and
LISA MCCRINDLE: responding to it through plans and
LISA MCCRINDLE: assessments, sexual abuse is really,
LISA MCCRINDLE: really low in comparison to that.
LISA MCCRINDLE: And we need to ask ourselves why is that?
LISA MCCRINDLE: What we do know is it's not because
LISA MCCRINDLE: there's less of it, it's because we're
LISA MCCRINDLE: identifying less of it. And what are the
LISA MCCRINDLE: barriers that are preventing
LISA MCCRINDLE: professionals from doing that?
LISA MCCRINDLE: In the last year's data, we did start to
LISA MCCRINDLE: see a slight increase in the number of
LISA MCCRINDLE: assessments of children being at risk,
LISA MCCRINDLE: for child sexual abuse. So perhaps we're
LISA MCCRINDLE: seeing, I guess what we might see is kind
LISA MCCRINDLE: of green shoots from all the efforts to
LISA MCCRINDLE: continually talk about child sexual abuse
LISA MCCRINDLE: and focus on child sexual abuse, starting
LISA MCCRINDLE: to see that come through in more
LISA MCCRINDLE: assessments. So there are indications
LISA MCCRINDLE: that we can make that progress.
LISA MCCRINDLE: And what we see from other areas is that
LISA MCCRINDLE: where professionals feel confident, where
LISA MCCRINDLE: they have the training, where they
LISA MCCRINDLE: recognise that their locality expects
LISA MCCRINDLE: these numbers to go up and recognises
LISA MCCRINDLE: that we should be finding more of these
LISA MCCRINDLE: children, and responding to more sexual
LISA MCCRINDLE: abuse, And where we
LISA MCCRINDLE: know that there are services available to
LISA MCCRINDLE: support those children and their families,
LISA MCCRINDLE: we do see an increase in identification
LISA MCCRINDLE: of concerns. So what we do know is that
LISA MCCRINDLE: talking about this, supporting
LISA MCCRINDLE: professionals, providing services, means
LISA MCCRINDLE: that we are getting— we can get better at
LISA MCCRINDLE: identifying and responding to children
LISA MCCRINDLE: that have been sexually abused.
LISA MCCRINDLE: I think the other really key thing to say
LISA MCCRINDLE: about what do we know about the scale of
LISA MCCRINDLE: child sexual abuse is it varies in terms
LISA MCCRINDLE: of our response. So, our response varies
LISA MCCRINDLE: massively across the country.
LISA MCCRINDLE: So, where you live really does matter
LISA MCCRINDLE: in terms of whether your locality,
LISA MCCRINDLE: whether that's children services or
LISA MCCRINDLE: whether it's criminal justice, is likely
LISA MCCRINDLE: to be identifying and responding to child
LISA MCCRINDLE: sexual abuse. So again, that consistency
LISA MCCRINDLE: of experiences is really important, and
LISA MCCRINDLE: what we need to look at as services is
LISA MCCRINDLE: how do we get better consistency in
LISA MCCRINDLE: identifying and responding to child
LISA MCCRINDLE: sexual abuse.
PRODUCER: You've highlighted there the level of insights
PRODUCER: that we can already get from the data.
PRODUCER: How can this data be used by professionals to
PRODUCER: improve the response to child sexual abuse?
LISA MCCRINDLE: When we're talking about this to
LISA MCCRINDLE: strategic leaders in localities, to
LISA MCCRINDLE: managers and to frontline service
LISA MCCRINDLE: professionals, is what this data should
LISA MCCRINDLE: help us to do is to ask questions of our
LISA MCCRINDLE: services. It should help us to ask
LISA MCCRINDLE: questions around, well, would we expect
LISA MCCRINDLE: this number to be higher or lower?
LISA MCCRINDLE: Has this number increased or decreased?
LISA MCCRINDLE: And why do we think that has happened?
LISA MCCRINDLE: Did we do something or stop doing
LISA MCCRINDLE: something? So have we got better at our
LISA MCCRINDLE: training and are we seeing that result in
LISA MCCRINDLE: better identification?
LISA MCCRINDLE: Have we stopped delivering a service and
LISA MCCRINDLE: that's meant that we're not in contact
LISA MCCRINDLE: with particular groups of children?
LISA MCCRINDLE: Are we seeing some children identified
LISA MCCRINDLE: more than other children?
LISA MCCRINDLE: And therefore, do we need to look at what
LISA MCCRINDLE: our training is telling us about
LISA MCCRINDLE: identifying and meeting the needs of
LISA MCCRINDLE: particular groups of children?
LISA MCCRINDLE: So really, I think the data is so
LISA MCCRINDLE: important because it gives us a sense of
LISA MCCRINDLE: how well are we identifying and
LISA MCCRINDLE: responding to children that have been
LISA MCCRINDLE: sexually abused. But then it should be
LISA MCCRINDLE: pushing us to ask more questions.
LISA MCCRINDLE: So what do we and don't we know as a
LISA MCCRINDLE: result of this data and where could we
LISA MCCRINDLE: find more information out?
LISA MCCRINDLE: At the CSA Centre we publish every year a
LISA MCCRINDLE: trends in data update. So, we look at the
LISA MCCRINDLE: latest data and what those trends are
LISA MCCRINDLE: telling us. That's the available public
LISA MCCRINDLE: data that's available nationally.
LISA MCCRINDLE: Local areas and local agencies can dig
LISA MCCRINDLE: into their own data and do much more
LISA MCCRINDLE: analysis and and really unpick.
LISA MCCRINDLE: They could do a data audit and they could
LISA MCCRINDLE: do a snapshot and pull out some files and
LISA MCCRINDLE: really start to unpick and understand
LISA MCCRINDLE: their data. So while it might sound a
LISA MCCRINDLE: little dry, it's incredibly important to
LISA MCCRINDLE: helping us understand the experience of
LISA MCCRINDLE: victims and survivors. Survey data tells
LISA MCCRINDLE: us about who is being harmed, what
LISA MCCRINDLE: context is that harm happening in,
LISA MCCRINDLE: at what age are children being harmed and
LISA MCCRINDLE: whether they had a response or not to
LISA MCCRINDLE: that? But then, service response data
LISA MCCRINDLE: is telling us about how are we actively
LISA MCCRINDLE: picking up and responding to this.
LISA MCCRINDLE: And so I think data is incredibly
LISA MCCRINDLE: important in helping us understand and
LISA MCCRINDLE: respond to child sexual abuse and it
LISA MCCRINDLE: should be driving us to ask questions and
LISA MCCRINDLE: make better decisions.
PRODUCER: And thinking about services for victims and
PRODUCER: survivors. The IICSA report says "public
PRODUCER: agencies rely on accurate and detailed data
PRODUCER: to make the best strategic and operational
PRODUCER: responses for the protection of children." What
PRODUCER: does the current landscape of support services
PRODUCER: look like in the UK, and how can we use data
PRODUCER: to improve the availability of these services?
LISA MCCRINDLE: The response that we provide to child
LISA MCCRINDLE: sexual abuse, it doesn't fall within one
LISA MCCRINDLE: particular service's responsibility or
LISA MCCRINDLE: one particular agency.
LISA MCCRINDLE: It's not just the responsibility of
LISA MCCRINDLE: criminal justice. It's not just the
LISA MCCRINDLE: responsibility of social work or health.
LISA MCCRINDLE: Victims of child sexual abuse need help
LISA MCCRINDLE: from a whole range of different places,
LISA MCCRINDLE: and that help will change that they need.
LISA MCCRINDLE: So, the support that victims and
LISA MCCRINDLE: survivors might need, and their families
LISA MCCRINDLE: might need, if they've been sexually
LISA MCCRINDLE: abused will be dependent on what's going
LISA MCCRINDLE: on for them at the time, how old are
LISA MCCRINDLE: they, what the arrangements are around,
LISA MCCRINDLE: you know, if they're children, if they're being
LISA MCCRINDLE: removed from the family or if they're
LISA MCCRINDLE: able to stay with family members.
LISA MCCRINDLE: But what impact is all of this happening?
LISA MCCRINDLE: Are they going through criminal justice
LISA MCCRINDLE: processes that will require a different
LISA MCCRINDLE: support service to maybe if they,
LISA MCCRINDLE: you know, are perhaps moving forward
LISA MCCRINDLE: and getting older and maybe experiencing
LISA MCCRINDLE: adolescence or their first relationships
LISA MCCRINDLE: or moving into adulthood, perhaps having
LISA MCCRINDLE: their first personal relationships or
LISA MCCRINDLE: serious relationships, maybe even going
LISA MCCRINDLE: on to have their own children.
LISA MCCRINDLE: All of these things will present
LISA MCCRINDLE: different needs at different times during
LISA MCCRINDLE: the lifetime of somebody that has
LISA MCCRINDLE: experienced and been sexually abused.
LISA MCCRINDLE: It's really important that we understand
LISA MCCRINDLE: that services aren't a single thing.
LISA MCCRINDLE: There isn't one service that one agency
LISA MCCRINDLE: can commission that is going to solve the
LISA MCCRINDLE: response that victims and survivors need.
LISA MCCRINDLE: So I think that's a really important
LISA MCCRINDLE: thing for us to understand: that services
LISA MCCRINDLE: aren't homogenous, and our need for
LISA MCCRINDLE: services will vary and differ over a
LISA MCCRINDLE: victim and survivors' lifetime.
LISA MCCRINDLE: In terms of the current landscape, what's
LISA MCCRINDLE: been really difficult is that all these
LISA MCCRINDLE: services will need to be delivered by
LISA MCCRINDLE: different agencies — so criminal justice
LISA MCCRINDLE: agencies might fund and commission
LISA MCCRINDLE: independent, sexual violence advisors
LISA MCCRINDLE: or victim support services for criminal
LISA MCCRINDLE: justice processes. We also need really
LISA MCCRINDLE: good mental health support for children
LISA MCCRINDLE: and that would be commissioned by the
LISA MCCRINDLE: health teams. And we also need social
LISA MCCRINDLE: workers that are trained and responsive
LISA MCCRINDLE: and understand the different context of
LISA MCCRINDLE: child sexual abuse.
LISA MCCRINDLE: So all of these different services come
LISA MCCRINDLE: from different places. So it's really
LISA MCCRINDLE: difficult for us to look at, well, where
LISA MCCRINDLE: all these services and what's available?
LISA MCCRINDLE: And obviously all of those are
LISA MCCRINDLE: commissioned differently across the
LISA MCCRINDLE: country. That sounds like you're letting
LISA MCCRINDLE: it off and it's just really difficult and
LISA MCCRINDLE: hard to do, but, that doesn't mean that
LISA MCCRINDLE: that needs to be the case. And I think there
LISA MCCRINDLE: are organisations and there are
LISA MCCRINDLE: individuals who have responsibility for
LISA MCCRINDLE: making sure that these services are
LISA MCCRINDLE: available and what we really need to see
LISA MCCRINDLE: — and there are opportunities to do this
LISA MCCRINDLE: in upcoming legislation — is how do we
LISA MCCRINDLE: build in those expectations and duties to
LISA MCCRINDLE: deliver services and make sure that there
LISA MCCRINDLE: is the breadth of service available, but
LISA MCCRINDLE: also, how do we make sure that we hold
LISA MCCRINDLE: people to account on those duties?
LISA MCCRINDLE: So there are key strategic leaders and
LISA MCCRINDLE: strategic organisations that have
LISA MCCRINDLE: responsibility for commissioning those
LISA MCCRINDLE: core services, whether that's through
LISA MCCRINDLE: integrated care boards or through police
LISA MCCRINDLE: and crime commissioners.
LISA MCCRINDLE: But how are we setting expectations that
LISA MCCRINDLE: a locality will ensure there is a breadth
LISA MCCRINDLE: of services that meets the needs of
LISA MCCRINDLE: victims and survivors in their locality,
LISA MCCRINDLE: and that those services are being
LISA MCCRINDLE: delivered and are accessible to those
LISA MCCRINDLE: children and their families.
LISA MCCRINDLE: So there's key bits to that — it's a big
LISA MCCRINDLE: question really — like what are the
LISA MCCRINDLE: services we need? Well, actually they're
LISA MCCRINDLE: wide and varied.
LISA MCCRINDLE: They need to meet the needs of children, they
LISA MCCRINDLE: need to meet the needs of adults, and
LISA MCCRINDLE: they need to meet the needs of the families
LISA MCCRINDLE: of children as well, because we know that
LISA MCCRINDLE: supporting families is one of the key
LISA MCCRINDLE: things we can do to best support children
LISA MCCRINDLE: that have been sexually abused.
LISA MCCRINDLE: But then we need to make sure those services
LISA MCCRINDLE: are there and we need to make sure that
LISA MCCRINDLE: there is accountability on delivering
LISA MCCRINDLE: those services.
LISA MCCRINDLE: So, more broadly, thinking about the
LISA MCCRINDLE: current landscape, some work was done a
LISA MCCRINDLE: number of years ago to try and map what
LISA MCCRINDLE: the current landscape of services was.
LISA MCCRINDLE: Recently, the CSA Centre has been
LISA MCCRINDLE: undertaking an update of that work, so
LISA MCCRINDLE: we've been working to to map what we do
LISA MCCRINDLE: know about services. And in coming months
LISA MCCRINDLE: we'll be publishing that work, which I
LISA MCCRINDLE: think will be incredibly valuable,
LISA MCCRINDLE: valuable to us in terms of what do we
LISA MCCRINDLE: know about the current service provision,
LISA MCCRINDLE: be really valuable to commissioners in
LISA MCCRINDLE: terms of understanding where there is
LISA MCCRINDLE: maybe more service offer and where there
LISA MCCRINDLE: is less service offer, what types of
LISA MCCRINDLE: services are we delivering more of in
LISA MCCRINDLE: which we're delivering less of?
PRODUCER: And that piece of research is available on the
PRODUCER: CSA Centre's website, and we'll put a link in
PRODUCER: the podcast show notes.
PRODUCER: Let's turn our attention now to the data
PRODUCER: recommendation proposed by IICSA.
PRODUCER: Recommendation one of the IICSA final report
PRODUCER: proposes the creation of a single core data set
PRODUCER: covering both England and Wales to improve
PRODUCER: data being collected by children's social care
PRODUCER: and criminal justice agencies concerning child
PRODUCER: sexual abuse and child sexual exploitation.
PRODUCER: The recommendation suggests that these agencies
PRODUCER: produce consistent and compatible data, which
PRODUCER: includes the characteristics of victims and
PRODUCER: alleged abusers such as age, sex and
PRODUCER: ethnicity, and factors that make victims
PRODUCER: more vulnerable to abuse or exploitation.
PRODUCER: It should also say where the child sexual abuse
PRODUCER: and exploitation happened and the context in
PRODUCER: which it happened.
PRODUCER: To learn more about how IICSA's recommendation
PRODUCER: would improve public agencies' approach to data
PRODUCER: collection, I spoke to Kelly Agudelo.
KELLY AGUDELO: Hello, I'm Kelly Agudelo.
KELLY AGUDELO: I am Head of Analysis within the
KELLY AGUDELO: Vulnerability Knowledge Practice Program,
KELLY AGUDELO: VKPP.
KELLY AGUDELO: The VKPP are a body or organisation which
KELLY AGUDELO: tries to improve the policing response of
KELLY AGUDELO: vulnerability. We also have responsibility
KELLY AGUDELO: for national analysis of child sexual
KELLY AGUDELO: abuse and exploitation.
PRODUCER: I began by asking Kelly how data collection
PRODUCER: currently works within the police force.
KELLY AGUDELO: So since 2015, policing
KELLY AGUDELO: has had a network of regional child sexual
KELLY AGUDELO: abuse and exploitation analysts, and
KELLY AGUDELO: this comprises of one analyst per policing
KELLY AGUDELO: region and we have ten policing regions
KELLY AGUDELO: across England and Wales.
KELLY AGUDELO: And the role of that network is to provide
KELLY AGUDELO: the analysis on child sexual abuse and
KELLY AGUDELO: exploitation on a regional level, which
KELLY AGUDELO: then feeds into a national picture so that
KELLY AGUDELO: we can understand actually what is going
KELLY AGUDELO: on within CSA/E across England
KELLY AGUDELO: and Wales. So that's actually been in
KELLY AGUDELO: existence for eight years now.
KELLY AGUDELO: Over the past few years we've been working
KELLY AGUDELO: towards achieving that single core data
KELLY AGUDELO: set or what we call the 'totality of
KELLY AGUDELO: police recorded child sexual abuse and
KELLY AGUDELO: exploitation crimes'.
KELLY AGUDELO: We produce on a quarterly basis, an
KELLY AGUDELO: analytical document looking at the scale
KELLY AGUDELO: and nature of police recorded child
KELLY AGUDELO: sexual abuse and exploitation across
KELLY AGUDELO: England and Wales.
KELLY AGUDELO: And that allows us to identify, as I say,
KELLY AGUDELO: the scale of child sexual abuse that's
KELLY AGUDELO: being reported and the nature of it.
KELLY AGUDELO: So breaking things down, like, the type
KELLY AGUDELO: of child sexual abuse and exploitation,
KELLY AGUDELO: who our victim survivors are, who the
KELLY AGUDELO: perpetrators are, and also
KELLY AGUDELO: looking at things like how recent the
KELLY AGUDELO: offending has taken place and how quickly
KELLY AGUDELO: victims are to report or not so how recent
KELLY AGUDELO: the offending is, and breaking down
KELLY AGUDELO: the demographics of victims and
KELLY AGUDELO: perpetrators across different types of
KELLY AGUDELO: child sexual abuse and exploitation
KELLY AGUDELO: because it does differ slightly.
KELLY AGUDELO: So that is the kind of data that we
KELLY AGUDELO: collect.
PRODUCER: How might we be able to use that data to
PRODUCER: respond to CSA?
KELLY AGUDELO: Data is a really important and valuable
KELLY AGUDELO: asset in terms of prevention and
KELLY AGUDELO: enforcement, and I think it's really
KELLY AGUDELO: important for all statutory organisations,
KELLY AGUDELO: and also non-statutory organisations, to
KELLY AGUDELO: understand the value of the information
KELLY AGUDELO: that they may hold when, actually, when
KELLY AGUDELO: you put it all together, it gives us a
KELLY AGUDELO: really good picture of what the problem
KELLY AGUDELO: is. And this is the case for all types of
KELLY AGUDELO: crime, but never more so than for CSA.
KELLY AGUDELO: And we can use that data as analysts to
KELLY AGUDELO: understand actually where is offending
KELLY AGUDELO: taking place that's potentially being
KELLY AGUDELO: reported or if we get information from
KELLY AGUDELO: partners that doesn't relate to a crime
KELLY AGUDELO: where there is indication that there
KELLY AGUDELO: might be offending taking place in a
KELLY AGUDELO: particular location, which gives policing
KELLY AGUDELO: the opportunity to maybe target that
KELLY AGUDELO: location and prevent offending.
KELLY AGUDELO: We ask for information around who our
KELLY AGUDELO: victim and survivors are to identify
KELLY AGUDELO: repeat victims, or potentially identify
KELLY AGUDELO: victims who may be at risk of child sexual
KELLY AGUDELO: abuse and exploitation.
KELLY AGUDELO: We also look at perpetrator information to
KELLY AGUDELO: understand, actually, do we have
KELLY AGUDELO: perpetrators that are cropping up across
KELLY AGUDELO: multiple locations,
KELLY AGUDELO: across multiple victims, so who are quite
KELLY AGUDELO: predatory in nature?
KELLY AGUDELO: We use perpetrator information to
KELLY AGUDELO: understand where we might have
KELLY AGUDELO: enforcement opportunities, or
KELLY AGUDELO: opportunities where we can be a bit more
KELLY AGUDELO: proactive around disrupting those
KELLY AGUDELO: offenders from a policing perspective, and
KELLY AGUDELO: therefore trying to remove the harm that
KELLY AGUDELO: they pose to our children.
KELLY AGUDELO: We also look at information relating
KELLY AGUDELO: to the kinds of child sexual abuse that is
KELLY AGUDELO: happening. So, for example, breaking it
KELLY AGUDELO: down to child-on-child or familial, and so
KELLY AGUDELO: on, to understand, actually, is that
KELLY AGUDELO: threat picture changing?
KELLY AGUDELO: What are we seeing more of?
KELLY AGUDELO: Do we need to focus our activity to kind
KELLY AGUDELO: of reflect where those trends are
KELLY AGUDELO: happening? So if we know, for example —
KELLY AGUDELO: and this is just an example — that,
KELLY AGUDELO: child sexual abuse is mostly happening
KELLY AGUDELO: within the child-on-child context,
KELLY AGUDELO: actually, that's a very different
KELLY AGUDELO: enforcement or preventative tactic as
KELLY AGUDELO: opposed to if, for example, you have
KELLY AGUDELO: adult-on-child sexual offending.
KELLY AGUDELO: And from a different perspective, in terms
KELLY AGUDELO: of that work with partners as well, it's
KELLY AGUDELO: really important to use the data to
KELLY AGUDELO: understand, actually, are there any
KELLY AGUDELO: opportunities to develop bespoke
KELLY AGUDELO: prevention or support services which
KELLY AGUDELO: reflect what's going on in the communities
KELLY AGUDELO: locally? So from that local level as well,
KELLY AGUDELO: it's really important to collect the data
KELLY AGUDELO: and to do the analysis on the data — that
KELLY AGUDELO: should be driving a lot of the policing
KELLY AGUDELO: activity.
KELLY AGUDELO: So in terms of the importance of
KELLY AGUDELO: data capture, the data should be
KELLY AGUDELO: giving us — across statutory
KELLY AGUDELO: organisations, but specifically for me,
KELLY AGUDELO: from a policing perspective — that is the
KELLY AGUDELO: foundation on which we understand a
KELLY AGUDELO: problem and what is going on.
KELLY AGUDELO: And if we don't have the entirety
KELLY AGUDELO: of a dataset, if we've got patches in our
KELLY AGUDELO: data, we are missing parts of that
KELLY AGUDELO: picture and we can't therefore ensure
KELLY AGUDELO: that our response collectively as
KELLY AGUDELO: statutory organisations reflects what's
KELLY AGUDELO: seen in that picture accurately.
KELLY AGUDELO: So it has real consequences in terms of us
KELLY AGUDELO: being able to develop an accurate response
KELLY AGUDELO: to prevent child sexual abuse and
KELLY AGUDELO: exploitation. So it's really important in
KELLY AGUDELO: that respect as well.
PRODUCER: So that's why the IICSA recommendation of the
PRODUCER: single core dataset needs to be implemented:
PRODUCER: because it will ensure that picture is complete
PRODUCER: and strategic responses to CSA are
PRODUCER: being based on accurate evidence.
PRODUCER: Kelly, how do we make sure that data being
PRODUCER: gathered is accurate?
KELLY AGUDELO: This is a long term issue, unfortunately,
KELLY AGUDELO: with policing data, and I'm sure it's the
KELLY AGUDELO: same for other statutory organisations as
KELLY AGUDELO: well. So we know that we've got aspects of
KELLY AGUDELO: data which are much more challenging.
KELLY AGUDELO: I should have said at the beginning that
KELLY AGUDELO: we are due to have an annual, publicly
KELLY AGUDELO: available report on the scale and nature
KELLY AGUDELO: of child sexual abuse, which is due to
KELLY AGUDELO: come out this autumn, so that will be
KELLY AGUDELO: publicly available.
KELLY AGUDELO: There will be information within that
KELLY AGUDELO: report which details, actually, where we
KELLY AGUDELO: have patches in our data.
KELLY AGUDELO: But, as an example, we know we've got
KELLY AGUDELO: challenges in our data in relation to
KELLY AGUDELO: — and this is referenced in the report as
KELLY AGUDELO: well — the recording of gender, ethnicity
KELLY AGUDELO: and age. So actually us being able to
KELLY AGUDELO: comment on actually who are the victims
KELLY AGUDELO: and survivors who are potentially
KELLY AGUDELO: most at risk, for example, it makes
KELLY AGUDELO: it really hard to to comment with a degree
KELLY AGUDELO: of accuracy.
KELLY AGUDELO: In terms of perpetrators, we also have
KELLY AGUDELO: challenges with our data in relation to
KELLY AGUDELO: ethnicity, gender and age.
KELLY AGUDELO: So being able to accurately understand
KELLY AGUDELO: who perpetrators are is a challenge
KELLY AGUDELO: for us. We are working to
KELLY AGUDELO: improve our data quality, so there is lots
KELLY AGUDELO: of work going on within policing to make
KELLY AGUDELO: sure that police officers, when they are
KELLY AGUDELO: capturing that information, that they are
KELLY AGUDELO: able to do that with a degree of accuracy.
KELLY AGUDELO: And that includes making sure that our
KELLY AGUDELO: crime recording systems allow this.
KELLY AGUDELO: We also understand that there are
KELLY AGUDELO: challenges sometimes for the officers
KELLY AGUDELO: taking report, where they may not want to
KELLY AGUDELO: retraumatise the victim, or actually the
KELLY AGUDELO: focus is not actually on obtaining
KELLY AGUDELO: particular details for the victim at that
KELLY AGUDELO: point, but it's around ensuring that they
KELLY AGUDELO: get them to a place of safety and
KELLY AGUDELO: safeguarding that victim.
KELLY AGUDELO: So there are challenges in that respect in
KELLY AGUDELO: terms of the priorities for the officer
KELLY AGUDELO: taking details of the crime report.
KELLY AGUDELO: This all has a knock-on impact in terms
KELLY AGUDELO: of the ability of analysts pull that
KELLY AGUDELO: information and make inferences on the
KELLY AGUDELO: basis of that data.
KELLY AGUDELO: So really important in terms of making
KELLY AGUDELO: sure that data is accurate not only from
KELLY AGUDELO: the perspective of understanding that
KELLY AGUDELO: national picture, but actually making sure
KELLY AGUDELO: that victims are seen in our data in a
KELLY AGUDELO: way that they are represented.
KELLY AGUDELO: So we know, for example, that there are
KELLY AGUDELO: particular communities that are
KELLY AGUDELO: underrepresented within our data.
KELLY AGUDELO: And we don't want that. We want them to be
KELLY AGUDELO: visible. We want to understand actually
KELLY AGUDELO: how is CSA/E impacting victims
KELLY AGUDELO: of particular communities.
PRODUCER: And that report that Kelly mentioned in our
PRODUCER: conversation, the National Analysis of Police
PRODUCER: Recording Child Sexual Abuse and Exploitation
PRODUCER: Crimes report, was published in January
PRODUCER: 2024.
PRODUCER: The report uses data collected from 42
PRODUCER: police forces to provide insight into the scale
PRODUCER: and nature of CSA and CSA offending
PRODUCER: across England and Wales in 2022,
PRODUCER: including crime types where these crimes were
PRODUCER: committed and the profiles of both victims
PRODUCER: and perpetrators.
PRODUCER: To conclude, I asked Kelly how close we are to
PRODUCER: achieving the one core dataset outlined in the
PRODUCER: IICSA final report.
KELLY AGUDELO: So, within policing, we have a policing
KELLY AGUDELO: core dataset, which we are working towards
KELLY AGUDELO: and have been working on for the past few
KELLY AGUDELO: years. But we know that the policing
KELLY AGUDELO: picture is just the tip of the iceberg.
KELLY AGUDELO: We know that there's a large amount of
KELLY AGUDELO: underreporting in this area.
KELLY AGUDELO: So there is a lot of work to be done in
KELLY AGUDELO: terms of how we link in with partner
KELLY AGUDELO: agencies to understand what's being
KELLY AGUDELO: reported in to them that hasn't come in to
KELLY AGUDELO: policing.
KELLY AGUDELO: There's lots of work needed in that
KELLY AGUDELO: respect. I think it's really important for
KELLY AGUDELO: other statutory organisations, and
KELLY AGUDELO: other organisations generally, to
KELLY AGUDELO: understand the value of soft information
KELLY AGUDELO: — or intelligence, as we call it within
KELLY AGUDELO: policing. So it may not be that there is
KELLY AGUDELO: a tangible offence that they've
KELLY AGUDELO: identified, for example, but there may be
KELLY AGUDELO: some concerns; but actually it's really
KELLY AGUDELO: important for them to feed that into
KELLY AGUDELO: policing, within the intelligence
KELLY AGUDELO: routes across their local force, because
KELLY AGUDELO: what it does, if you get bits and pieces
KELLY AGUDELO: of information and intelligence, it builds
KELLY AGUDELO: up a picture for the analysts within that
KELLY AGUDELO: force to understand, actually, we've had
KELLY AGUDELO: information from this person about
KELLY AGUDELO: this person or network.
KELLY AGUDELO: And if you layer that with other
KELLY AGUDELO: information that might be coming in,
KELLY AGUDELO: that's really valuable. So I just want to
KELLY AGUDELO: stress that it's not just about reporting
KELLY AGUDELO: crime. Obviously, we want to make sure
KELLY AGUDELO: that we improve and increase, the
KELLY AGUDELO: way that child sexual abuse is recorded
KELLY AGUDELO: and reported. But actually, it's all the
KELLY AGUDELO: soft information that sits behind this.
KELLY AGUDELO: So, for example, this suspicious vehicle
KELLY AGUDELO: or I know that this person is using
KELLY AGUDELO: a particular method to groom children.
KELLY AGUDELO: All of that is really valuable.
KELLY AGUDELO: So I just would urge professionals to
KELLY AGUDELO: think beyond a crime report, but actually
KELLY AGUDELO: all of the soft intelligence that they
KELLY AGUDELO: might be aware of that they don't
KELLY AGUDELO: understand has huge value.
PRODUCER: In our conversation, Kelly explained the
PRODUCER: importance of avoiding gaps in the data.
PRODUCER: I asked Lisa McCrindle what data we are
PRODUCER: currently lacking that would improve our
PRODUCER: understanding of child sexual abuse.
LISA MCCRINDLE: What we don't have is a regular
LISA MCCRINDLE: prevalence survey. So we don't have a
LISA MCCRINDLE: regular survey that asks detailed
LISA MCCRINDLE: questions about the experience of sexual
LISA MCCRINDLE: abuse that people have experienced.
LISA MCCRINDLE: We get our data presently...
LISA MCCRINDLE: The best source of the data is from the
LISA MCCRINDLE: regular crime survey for England and
LISA MCCRINDLE: Wales updates, but inevitably that
LISA MCCRINDLE: suppresses some reporting because it's
LISA MCCRINDLE: framed as a crime and lots of people
LISA MCCRINDLE: won't necessarily feel confident to name
LISA MCCRINDLE: what happened to them necessarily as a
LISA MCCRINDLE: crime. The most detailed data we have and
LISA MCCRINDLE: that we draw on consistently is the NSPCC
LISA MCCRINDLE: survey that was undertaken in 2009.
LISA MCCRINDLE: That was a wider child maltreatment
LISA MCCRINDLE: survey, so it asked some questions about
LISA MCCRINDLE: sexual abuse but didn't go into detail.
LISA MCCRINDLE: So what we really, really need, and what
LISA MCCRINDLE: would be a great investment in improving
LISA MCCRINDLE: our data, would be a regular prevalence
LISA MCCRINDLE: survey on child sexual abuse.
LISA MCCRINDLE: And when I say regular, we're not calling
LISA MCCRINDLE: for it every year, we're talking about
LISA MCCRINDLE: could it be every five years?
LISA MCCRINDLE: Could it be every ten years?
LISA MCCRINDLE: This would be a massive improvement on
LISA MCCRINDLE: the current data that we currently have.
LISA MCCRINDLE: And then in terms of service data,
LISA MCCRINDLE: there's lots that can be done.
LISA MCCRINDLE: There's huge amounts of information that's
LISA MCCRINDLE: collected by services that isn't
LISA MCCRINDLE: necessarily collected in a format that
LISA MCCRINDLE: can be extracted and analysed.
LISA MCCRINDLE: But there are things that could be done
LISA MCCRINDLE: to improve individual agencies' data and
LISA MCCRINDLE: their capacity to compare that data with
LISA MCCRINDLE: different agencies in their locality.
LISA MCCRINDLE: If there was one thing that we would put
LISA MCCRINDLE: on a data wishlist, if you like, it would
LISA MCCRINDLE: be to improve our understanding about the
LISA MCCRINDLE: relationship between the victim and the
LISA MCCRINDLE: person that has abused them.
LISA MCCRINDLE: So that's often missing from data.
LISA MCCRINDLE: If we could get that understanding about
LISA MCCRINDLE: the relationship between the victim and
LISA MCCRINDLE: the person that's abused them, that would
LISA MCCRINDLE: give us huge insights into the context
LISA MCCRINDLE: of that harm that's happening, which
LISA MCCRINDLE: would enable us to think about prioritisation
LISA MCCRINDLE: and response.
PRODUCER: I wanted to end with one final incredibly
PRODUCER: important point from Lisa.
LISA MCCRINDLE: Data is data, and it's really important
LISA MCCRINDLE: to remember that all of those numbers are
LISA MCCRINDLE: children. They're individual children who
LISA MCCRINDLE: have experienced sexual abuse, who
LISA MCCRINDLE: somebody has sexually harmed them.
LISA MCCRINDLE: And I think it's really important that
LISA MCCRINDLE: when we are looking at those numbers, we do
LISA MCCRINDLE: remember that.
PRODUCER: Thanks to Lisa McCrindle and Kelly Agudelo.
PRODUCER: You can find links to all the reports mentioned
PRODUCER: in this episode, including the latest edition
PRODUCER: of the CSA Centre's Trends in Data report,
PRODUCER: in the podcast show notes.
PRODUCER: In the next episode of Recommendations for
PRODUCER: Change, we'll be focusing on children in care.
PRODUCER: What does the IICSA final report suggest we do
PRODUCER: to better protect vulnerable looked after
PRODUCER: children?
PRODUCER: If you've been affected by any of the issues
PRODUCER: raised in this podcast, you can reach out to
PRODUCER: the NSPCC Helpline for support, call
PRODUCER: 0808 800 5000
PRODUCER: or email help@nspcc.org.uk.
PRODUCER: This podcast series was produced in Autumn
PRODUCER: 2023.
PRODUCER: All information was correct at the time of
PRODUCER: recording, but the world of child protection is
PRODUCER: ever-changing.
PRODUCER: To stay up to date, visit the NSPCC learning
PRODUCER: website at nspcc.org.uk/learning.