This podcast contains the personal stories, opinions and experiences of its speakers, rather
than those of Breast Cancer Now. Welcome to the Breast Cancer Now podcast, providing support and
information to anyone affected by breast cancer. I'm Laura Price and I'm the host of the Breast
Cancer Now podcast. I'm a food writer and author and I live with secondary breast cancer. Today we
are talking to a mother and daughter who were diagnosed with breast cancer just weeks Fern
checked her breasts after her mum Jan was told she had cancer and Fern subsequently found out she had
cancer too. They've been going through treatment together since 2022 and they are now proudly
supporting ASDA's Tickle Pink Mother's Day campaign which supports Breast Cancer Now and
CoppaFeel. We're bringing you this episode for Mother's Day and we're going to be talking about
what it's like to be going through a diagnosis and treatment with a close family member and how that
experience can sometimes make you stronger. Fern and Jan, welcome to the Breast Cancer Now podcast.
Oh it's lovely to meet you both. So I'd love to start by getting to know you and finding out how you both
came to be diagnosed with cancer. So Jan, I'd like to start with you. Can you tell us how you were
diagnosed? Yes, so my diagnosis started well in my mind a year before because I had a tiny lump and some
thickening. I went to the GP who sent me to the two-week clinic and that was all checked and no, no
it was absolutely fine. It was just normal ageing so I went away happy, carried on with my life and
then several months later, I'm not sure how many, six, seven, the lump started to get bigger and I
just thought no, it's just a cyst that told me that and so I just sat on it really complacent and just
kind of thought I need to go to the GP and get that drained. You know, it's getting a bit of a pain,
it's quite big really but you know when it's life takes over and you're too busy and I knew it was an
assist and I've been told that it was fine but then it did really start to get quite big and quite hard
and I thought I really should go and get that drained and the back of my mind I think there was a
bit of denial going on because it clearly wasn't a cyst so I did finally go back to the GP who sent me
straight away back to the breast clinic and although when I had the ultrasound the look on the
doctor's face kind of gave it away when he looked at the floor and I said so do you think it's cancer?
When he said that's definitely not a cyst but he wouldn't tell me whether he thought it's cancer or
not but the lack of eye contact kind of gave it away but then I had a three three and a half week wait
until the biopsies came back by the end of which I did know it was because I'd been chasing up the
result and rang the hospital and the receptionist said oh they're just waiting for the her-to result
so that's how I found out. Did you know what her-to was? Well I went online and looked up her to and that
was that did confirm what I'd kind of really in my gut knew at that point. And how did it feel finding
out that it was cancer after such a long time of firstly being told that it wasn't and then being
just made to wait? Well it was really scary because obviously I was really really not be myself I'd sat
on it for so long and obviously I thought if this has been there for a year how bad is this? You know so I
was kind of expecting the worst and then how about they told me there was nothing wrong and but then
you know I should have been I should have been more on it because I'm sure they probably told me as well
that if if anything changed to go back but you don't hear everything do you? And life is always takes
precedence and you know you've got work to do and there's other things going on and you just push
that one to the back to the you know the background and that's really was not a good thing to do. And
what was the situation where you told that you could have treatment there and then? Yes I was they
did straight away booked me in for a CAT scan because there was a possibility that it'd been
there longer than you know the few weeks when it started to get bigger that came back clear which
was a huge relief and I was booked in for I think it was about three weeks until I had chemo and you know
after seeing my oncologist so the treatment did get started really really quickly but I felt quite
on top of it I didn't really feel as if it overwhelmed me and I was very I did say I would like
you to go back and re-examine what was looked at last year because if it was there then you know it's
you know someone needs to know that something was missed which they did and apparently when they
re-examined all of the scans and the imaging it wasn't anything cancerous there at that point but
it clearly had changed in the course of you know those five six months whatever it was. Okay well
we'll come back to your the treatment and everything that you had afterwards in a little
while but first I wanted to ask Fern we'll also talk about your own diagnosis but how did you feel first
of all when you found out your mum had cancer? Well stupidly I believed all those common
misconceptions about what a breast cancer diagnosis means so you think the best thing to do is
to be positive and try and share the positivity and encourage them to be strong and you know you've
you've got this and all those stereotypical sayings that I thought I was being such an amazing
support I was really proud of myself for being so supportive but it was only when I got my diagnosis
that I realised actually it's not about giving all that toxic positivity it's just about listening
and understanding to their experience because everyone's is so different. And even though you
were saying all these things you've got this and what not what what did you feel underneath were
you? Um I think because of the things that you see the really misleading stuff online stuff in the
news I think I genuinely believed it I think I genuinely believed oh it's only breast cancer I
can't believe I'm even saying that now but honestly that's how I felt this makes me cringe
even saying it but oh at least you're gonna get a boob job can't believe it honestly I'm so sorry to
say that out loud but that's honestly what I believed I believed it's okay you know it's a good
one all those classic misconceptions about what it means and how serious it is didn't really have a
clue I mean obviously I was scared because it's my mum and you know you don't want anything to happen
to your mum or you know go through a horrible experience anyway letting something like cancer
treatment um but I genuinely thought I was doing a good job of supporting and when you said it's a good
one did you mean it breast cancer is one of the good cancers if you were to get a cancer so I thought you
know it's easily treatable um you know all those things that you hear oh there's so much they can do
these days I could just reel off hundreds of those phrases that people just come out with thinking
that it's supportive and I know I did the exact same thing so how long was it until you got your own
diagnosis and how did you find that diagnosis so mums kind of spurred me on to check myself I did
always sporadically have a little check in the shower but never felt anything um and then I laid
down and I think I took it really seriously because obviously mum had just been diagnosed and I
noticed that there was a difference and it felt completely different to mums so mums was like a
rock mine was more like a thickened area um and I hope no one's eaten any cauliflower bang bang but
it felt a bit like a bit of cooked cauliflower that's sort of like um different slightly
different shape but you had to really look for it so because mum was just diagnosed I thought this has
got to be psychological I know there's a difference it was a real 50 50 I feel there's
something there but it it can't be the same time as mum it's got to be in my head it's got to be some kind
of worry showing itself as as like health anxiety or something like that so I kept it a little bit
played it on the down low a little bit with mum I didn't say anything until I just casually said uh
yeah I just want to let you know I found a lot I found a lump of my own I'm sure it's nothing to worry about
and I'm sure it's just because I'm worried about you but I just wanted to let you know sort of thing
but I'm sure it's nothing to worry about because the other aspect of it is that you feel like you're
kind of trying to take the attention away I don't know about your diagnosis but I've got a lump um
which is obviously ridiculous but that is an emotion that kind of came in to how I felt about it
and how seriously I took the different the difference in my boob so how soon did you find out
that you had cancer as well well mum had an appointment at our local breast clinic to have a
clip put in before our chemo because that was her first line of treatment with the chemo and I
happened to have been given an appointment to have the mammogram and a check with a consultant check
out this different area at the same time so we went up together had a nice bit of lunch convinced that I
was just there to support mum and that they were gonna well actually I wasn't convinced I think I
knew I think I did know deep down when I felt lumps under my armpit I think I did know but I think you did
I think that nice little meal wasn't nice at all do you think you did as well Jan do you think you knew as
well I think I remember that every minute of that meal it was a beautiful restaurant we were trying
to be so yeah I know it was we were trying to be so good about it but but at the same time you just think what
are the chances of this happening at the same time that I'm going to the same place that my mum is about
to start her treatment to be told I've got cancer I just thought this has got to be psychological so I
was really hanging on to that and so I went and you know what it's like it's horrible the biopsies and
luckily the what's it what's it called the lady that does the ultrasound ultrasound sonographer
is that right yeah I guess yeah she was fantastic and she had quite a different experience to you
where she did talk me through what she saw and I'd had a little google online before so I tried to
sound like I knew a little bit about what I was looking at I was like oh those edges don't look very
um differentiated or trying to sound I thought if I sound like I know what I'm talking about she might
be a bit more open with me and she was like no they're not and then I saw her measure in it and and then
she's measuring another area and I knew from speaking to an amazing nurse at breast cancer now
but when I was looking for support so that I could support mum in the right way that you know the
basically the more biopsies they take them you know the more they probably is and if it's under the
arm then it's probably lymph nodes and all that so I knew about the amount of biopsies I was having and
the size of the area that area of concern whatever they call it that it was quite large and the
consultant who had previously said before I went in for the ultrasound that you couldn't feel
anything sat me down and said I'm you've really surprised me I can say that it with you know you need
to expect cancer diagnosis because that is what it looks like um so then obviously you have to wait for
the biopsy results um but yeah that was the beginning of well I don't even have the words to
describe it really of trying to it's just like a bomb's gone off isn't it because it's just like
everything around is white noise and you just have to try and function the best you can with the way
that your mum had been sort of fobbed off I guess did you feel grateful at all that they said you should
expect a cancer diagnosis because they were a bit more straightforward with you absolutely yeah
really grateful and I think that mum's experience had prompted me to ask a lot more questions a bit a
lot more force come in with oh what does how big is that you know what are you while they're doing all
this I was trying to really find the strength to just get as much information as I could while I was
there and then yeah you sound like me I'm when I'm lying on a bed having whatever treatment whether
it's an ultrasound or a biopsy I'm always the annoying patient asking all the questions oh no I
think now yeah I think it is that thing if you want to know and very often if you don't ask you don't
necessarily find out because a lot of people don't want to so they don't necessarily always offer up
the information so it is good to ask I think but looking back I can see what the doctor said if she
was trying I think she said something like well it looks like it is something more serious than a cyst
and in my mind I thought well even a benevolent benign growth is more serious than a cyst isn't it
and I was thinking well it could just be a benign growth I don't know why I think of a denial yeah I
mean denial is a very very natural reaction I think to those scary situations it's definitely
something that and I had that as well actually um Jan so you've been diagnosed with breast cancer
and then you find out that your daughter has breast cancer too how did that feel on top of your own
diagnosis this is so hard to talk about this bit this is just the worst memory and the worst time
because when I had my own diagnosis um and it you you always think straight away this is it you know you
imagine your own funeral and everything and I'm sure everyone who does it gets any kind of cancer
diagnosis but then then quite soon I thought well you know I'm 58 I've got great family I've had a good
life even if it does come to that I can't really complain you know and thank goodness it's not the
children and that was one of the I kind of call it the polyanomomance thank goodness it's not this
thank goodness it's not the children or the grandchildren and then within a few weeks for it to
be fern it was well it was to be quite honest from that point on my own diagnosis was kind of just an
incidental because really your children are the most important thing in the world to you and I mean I
was I was horrified or terrified that I would be too ill to look to help to support fern because that's
what I wanted more than anything else was to be able to look after fern and I hadn't even started chemo I
actually we had fern's diagnosis was the day before I had my first chemo and I had no idea how it
was going to affect me and so I was just quite heartbroken really to think that I might be so ill
that I couldn't even support fern unless it happened that's you know that's not what happened
and we were a really good support to each other but that was my fear that I wouldn't be able to look
after and then of course you absolutely catastrophize everything you know looking far
ahead and thinking the absolute worst you know if the worst happened for both of us you know what
about the grandchildren and say it was the worst time yeah well moving on to that so fern you're a mum
too you have three young kids is that right so how did you deal with your cancer and your mum's cancer
around your kids did you tell them yeah so I knew they needed to know because I knew that they would
at the very least sense that something was going on and I didn't want them to feel that they weren't
privy or that I didn't trust them enough or that they I wanted them to know wholeheartedly that
they were getting the truth and that nothing was being hidden from them how old do they or how old
were they so at the time my eldest was 11 and then Isabella was 9 and then my youngest was 4 so
obviously very different ages and that meant that they can take in a lot too not very much at all and so
yeah watching them I knew that I had to tell them soon while I was in that bomb going off numb phase
because I knew that I'd kind of be overcome with emotion and it would get harder and harder as time
went by so as soon as I got home I just said to them you know what nanny's got I said well I've just been and
just been and had some tests and mummy's got it too but it's just a little bit worse and then obviously
they got upset and because they just didn't how I reacted to mum's diagnosis that's just yeah I mean
they've been amazing though they're just so strong and amazing children I'm sure there's
stuff bubbling away under there that they're going to have to deal with at some point but you know
they've actually been fantastic and I feel like they should be really proud of themselves while
they've handled everything do you use the word cancer with them absolutely yeah I mean it's so
common it's such it's a big part of human life cancer for one reason or another known on food or
genetics or whatever it is but and I feel like it's the same with death I feel we shouldn't shy away
from it because it's a big part of our lives isn't it and everyone's going to go through at some point so
absolutely yeah I wanted to say as well if anyone listening is in a similar situation there is a
brilliant episode that I listened to on this podcast after my diagnosis about explaining
breast cancer to young children with Elker Thompson so we'll put that link in the show notes
for anyone who'd like to find the episode so um Furn you mentioned that when you were talking to your
kids you said mommy's got the same thing as grandma and it's a little bit worse so could you tell me
about each of your diagnoses and what stage the cancer was at what treatment you had to have yeah of
course yeah so um strangely even though mum's lump felt bigger my lump was bigger so I was uh
technically 3c you are what was your stage 2 stage 2 grade 3 yeah so mine was quite a big hard lump yeah
but it was it was in the breast I didn't have anything and we are fortunately going to be doing
another episode um which will come out after your episode which explains the stages and the grades
and the language and the wording around cancer so because I even after 12 years of experiencing
cancer I still don't fully understand the difference between grade and stage so um but yeah
when I was first diagnosed I found this podcast really helpful to listen to so I know that that will
go down a storm hopefully yeah so um but neither had spread so neither would still have primary cancer
a lot of nodes but so far yeah it's just primary yeah it was an awful weight wasn't it for your the best
yeah because I could feel so many lumps under my armpit after knowing how to check properly um I was
convinced and I had some back pain as well so I was pretty resigned to the fact that I probably was
looking at um uh spread but I was like would have it um because mum was diagnosed that could have been
what what prevented my you know initial diagnosis from being so yeah that's a really positive way of
looking at it isn't it that your mum yeah maybe I mean if mum wasn't diagnosed I wouldn't have
checked or at least I wouldn't have checked well enough to have taken it seriously I mean I was
getting symptoms that I was ignoring like arm pain um pain in the chest like back pain completely
ignoring it just because I thought I was where I picked up something funny or yeah and what
treatment and surgery did you have to have um so I had a mastectomy followed and node clearance and
then chemo um eight rounds of chemo which where we live there was quite a delay on the chemo and and mum
went in to have her pre-chemo blood and my wait for the chemo was so long that when I finally went in to
have my pre-chemo blood done the um HTA said to me oh we had a mum in here on Friday begging for her
daughter to um have her place for chemo um and I thought yeah that's my mum cheers so your mum was
trying to get her place given to you so that you could have your chemo yeah oh that's mum's that's
mum's for you isn't it you do the same for your kids I imagine you would but just the idea of your mum
trying to sort of give away her spot to you well it's just like when you're waiting for this treatment
every every day you just think come on get up on the call I want to have the treatment yeah you're
making me really emotional no it's just that thought isn't it of things that your mum would do
for you or things that you would do for your children yeah it's really yeah fun I was looking
through your instagram post uh I hope you don't mind that right yeah and um you said that when you
finished chemotherapy you felt like you looked in the mirror and you felt like an empty shell of a
person yeah and that is I think it's almost the exact phrasing I used when I finished my chemo like
11 years ago really really resonate with that feeling of you should be getting better and the
cancer the chemotherapy is making your cancer better but you feel like you've just been driven
down you know drilled down with this chemotherapy spiral and you just feel empty how has your
recovery been from that and have you managed to get yourself back yeah um I think a lot of people say you
never yourself again you lose yourself I don't necessarily agree with that because I think that
although you might feel lost at the end and you know like we just talked about that feeling of being a
shell where you know the medicines and experiences and emotional overwhelm has just
annihilated you you are still in there and I think you just build on top of that and I think if you're
lucky enough to have the right support you can use that you know like there's so many amazing people
like you Laura just inspirational that you can use that to sort of make the fire to move forward a
little bit and it's all part of me anyway that's who I was anyway and so now I'm just really happy to be
able to be back there and there's things like I was listening to your episode with em, is it yes
Transcript. Transcript. Transcript. Transcript. Transcript. Transcript.
Transcript. Transcript. Transcript. Trust-fif amigo more easy to deal with now, like hair, like,
I've got one, babe. Well, how can I dress for that? Rather than, how long am I gonna be? And I feel like
our experience has allowed us to share so much important information because we were both
diagnosed alongside each other. We really could compare the different symptoms and how different
they were. So I just wanna share how important it is to look for changes in yourself, not for a specific
symptom. Yeah, and I'd really like to reiterate not to be complacent and, you know, don't just sit
on things as soon as you... Do you know, whenever you say that, I imagine you sit in on your boob. I
actually, I thought I've had the same image as well because earlier on you talked about finding a lump
and then sitting on it. Well, that brings me to the next thing, which is that you've got involved with
breast cancer awareness charity, Copperfield, as a boobette to help educate other young people
about the importance of self-checking. And that's something I've been doing for a long time as
well. I'm an OG boobette. Why was it important to you to help others? Just because we discovered how
common it was, the fact that we both were diagnosed at the same time speaks volumes and how prevalent
it is in people. And also how differently our symptoms presented. I just thought that was
something really valuable that we could share. And we were shocked at just how many young women are
being diagnosed with it. And it just felt like you really need to go and shout this from the rooftops.
And you really need to encourage everyone, not only to check themselves, but to their daughters.
You know, because that's one of my... I looked back and I think, why didn't I talk to Fern? I wouldn't
check. I listened to you anyway, Mum. Well, no, I know that's true. I know you would have been really
annoyed if I'd done that, but looking back, I think why didn't I tell them to check? I think you
shouldn't beat yourself up, Mum. I think we've done amazing. But I'm pretty good, Mum. So you just
want... Yeah, I just want people to talk about it with each other and talk to their family and their
friends. It's hard though, isn't it? You know, how do you bring that conversation up? With breast,
when you've had a diagnosis, it can almost be easier to talk about it, because you have to. Oh,
totally. How do you approach telling your daughter about checking their boobs? And other
people, I mean, my dad said that he bumped into a lady friend, a lady friend. But someone who knows
who is an older lady, what did he say? And I said, I hope you're checking your boobs. I won't. He said
it's a bit old. But again, it's hard to... You know, you want to spread the message, but in some
situations, it does have some social... ...deconitations that are a little bit awkward.
Yeah. But yeah. You've also talked fun about the difficulty or the differences in checking when
you have bigger boobs. Yeah. Can you tell us about that? Absolutely. So I found the only way I noticed
a difference was by laying down and even then laying at a certain angle. Then you could really
see the orange peel dimpling and all the symptoms that we commonly talk about. But also in
hindsight, I really should have taken the lumps under my armpit more seriously. I just assumed
that there was some... I had a spot nearby that was making them all an infection or something that was
making them enlarged. Yeah. So I had to say mums. It was right there to the point where I was saying to my
husband, I can't believe she's lifted. It's so huge. There is a list of signs and symptoms and ways
to check, both on the Breast Cancer Now website and on the Copperfield website as well. And I was told
yesterday while I was in the Copperfield headquarters that there's a quick exit button. So
if you're worried about... You know, your older parents might not approve of... You're looking at
a website which involves checking your chest. You can press a button which quickly gets rid of it all
from your computer. Oh, okay. That's something that I don't about you if you do a talk that I often
get approached by children at the end that say, oh, what if I find something? My parents wouldn't like
me knowing that I've checked or, you know, which is just heartbreaking, isn't it? Yeah, that's
really... I mean, we just need to be educating the parents rather than finding the quick exit
button. Absolutely, yeah. Which is why it's important to, you know, talk about this more... as
widely as possible. So hopefully if someone's listened to this podcast, maybe they'll decide to
share it with someone who... Like their boss or... Someone who they... Or their brother or something
that wouldn't normally necessarily be... feel comfortable talking about checking boobs. So
you're also both supporting Asda's Tickle Pink campaign for Mother's Day 2024. Can you tell us
about that? Yes, actually really exciting, isn't it? We were talking yesterday saying how great it
is that they do this campaign so far away from October. So you have, like, the big rush in October
of breast cancer awareness month and then the Mother's Day check. It's kind of enough time for
people to have forgotten a little bit about it and then it hopefully will encourage another drive of
people to go and get checked. And the other really nice thing that I learned about the Asda campaign
is that it was pushed forward by people that work at Asda. I just think that's amazing. So it's not a
publicity campaign. It's genuinely staff that work at Asda who really cared and, you know, no
people have been diagnosed and they wanted to make it a thing which I think is so lovely. So what are you
doing for the campaign? Well, we're not really doing that much, if I'm honest. We've got a picture
and a bit of cardboard. In the stores. In the stores, yeah, which is pretty cool. I do look
totally different in the picture so I'm pretty sure even if I stood next to it you wouldn't
recognise me. I was right in the store of the odd to start chemo and you just had... Yeah, so at least I
really long blonde hair and now it's come back so dark. It's like a different hair. It's really
straight. But really it was just about sharing our story and hopefully our story will encourage
people to buy some of their merch. Is that Copperfield merch or Asda? In Asda they're
selling a range of stuff and I think the money goes to breast cancer now in Copperfield which I don't
think there are any better charities out there. No, true. Yeah. Fantastic. And can you... So
you've experienced the worst and you've experienced some fun parts as well together. How
has this experience brought you together, bonded you, or has it done the opposite? How's it been for
your relationship? I think it's actually been really beneficial for our relationship because
we understood what it means. We could talk about certain medical professionals that have some
interesting traits about their style. We do have the same oncology as that one. Because I think even
though obviously cancer diagnosis of any kind is horrific, there's always something to be
grateful for, the Mat House Mall. And I think most people go through it on their own and have to go out
there and find online communities and listen to podcasts. And deal with everyone like me, like I
was at the beginning, go, you got this, you... You used to get moved on. Actually you've earned that
bad fat. Oh, look back on that. No, it was quite helpful actually being positive. But yeah,
whereas we weren't alone. I know obviously we had different types of breast cancer and Fern
Blesser, her response to chemo was horrendous compared to mine, but I did know what it was like to
have quite a harsh chemo regime. I did know what it was like for your hair to fall out and your eyebrows
and eyelashes. Just knowing that there's sort of routine. They are, but it was... As your mum, it
was... I knew what you were going through and it kind of weirdly kind of felt better to know that I
was supporting you from a place of experience and from a place of understanding. Absolutely. Jan, I
think I know entirely what you're saying and I went through breast cancer when I was 29 with my mum who
didn't have breast cancer and I can't speak for her obviously, but I feel like she felt helpless
because she wasn't going for... And I think I remember her saying she would happily have gone
through it instead of me any day. She listens to this podcast, so hi mum. Hi mum. Happy Mother's
Day. But yeah, I think it totally makes sense what you're saying basically about that it helped that
you were going through it because it helped you to understand what Fern was going through. And I kind
of almost felt happier that I had it as well, but in fact I would rather we'd swapped and I had Ferns and
she'd had mine. But that's not possible obviously. You just know, you just know one knows.
No, one knows how these things are going to turn out. No, that's true. Some people have the tiniest
lump that comes back really quickly. You just don't know. No, not at all and you obviously can't
control it and you didn't make it happen in the first place. Exactly, yeah. But one of the first
things that a lot of people would think about when you're both diagnosed in the same family is was it
hereditary, was it a genetic thing? So I believe you've had genetic testing to find out if you had
any genetic faults? Yeah, we did, yeah. I mean, obviously originally we had no idea. We didn't
have any relatives who had had breast cancer. But it was only because of my age that we could go and
have the genetic testing, which again kind of helped each other out in a strange way. And we both
have a 40 check 2 gene, which... Check 2? Check 2? Oh, I haven't even heard of that one. Exactly,
apparently in different some... It's not new, it's been known about for a long time but it's just
the testing for it because it's only a moderate risk, which a moderate risk. A lot of areas don't
even test for it. So you could have a genetic test if you're living in a certain area and you don't even
know that you actually do have a 40 gene. So yeah, I feel really lucky that we got even to be tested for
that. I mean, in fact, I would not have heard the test and it does... It's not really as bad as the
brachygene, but it's still at the top end, which is where we are, it increases your risk of... I
haven't pressed the answer to a 1 in 3. So it's still quite a high risk. Yeah, that's pretty high and
also when you've had breast cancer, well, you are that 1 in 3. And then your chance of getting it in the
other breast is also higher. But I wouldn't have been able to have the genetic testing. And it's
only because I had the genetic testing after ferns came back positive that I was able to say I would
like a mastectomy, whereas I was all set to have a lumpectomy. And as it happened, something had
been missed. And after the mastectomy, after they looked at the tissue, lo and behold, there was
quite a lot of DCISLs where in the breast that would have been missed if I hadn't had that mastectomy.
So it's weird how it's hard to diagnose a cup of tea. Yeah, wow. Serendipity. So, yeah, I mean, and
again, knowledge is power, right? You found out this information that has then helped you and
helped each other. You live next door to each other, I think. How did that help you to support
each other through treatment? With the children. Oh, yeah, it was like, I'll say nice in the weirdest
possible way. But yeah, it was so nice to be able to be like, if I was, you know, if you're having a
cycle, sometimes parts of it are worse than other parts. And if one of us was having a bad time, that
meant the other one could look after my children or I could grab something food-wise for mum or
whatever. It just helped so much. Yeah, and even if the kids could sort of pot around to me sometimes,
and it didn't really matter if I wasn't feeling great because I could just, I said, that's fine,
I'll just lie on the set and they can just play whatever I'm telling. Yeah. And it, yeah, it was, I
often thought, I can't imagine what this would be like if we had even a half an hour drive to get to each
other. It would have been so much harder. And I wonder if talking about it retrospectively, I
wonder if it's both having it kind of normalized a bit for them. So maybe it did. Well, yeah. Yeah.
Yes. And what about, what's the support been like from the rest of your family? My husband has been
incredible. He's got a business to run, which he does so well at. He's a fantastic dad. I just feel so
lucky to have him. He's such a positive person, not in a toxic positive way, but I honestly could not
have done it without him. And he's been incredible. And my dad as well, obviously mum's
husband, he's just lovely as well. And he's so clever. He's just been, they've both been
amazing, really incredible. And the kids as well. John will kids. They'll listen to this one. Yeah.
Yeah. And Janet, is it right that you're a school teacher? Yes. And have you managed to go back to
work? Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have. And I've been really open about the diagnosis. And it was really
sweet when I was off sick. I had lots of messages from members of our mental group and kids that I'd
taught. I was regularly in touch with six formers. And in fact, I did a sponsor walk last year with some
friends. And I thought, oh, I'll put something on the alumni website. And the main thing really was
just to get all the young women check in and make sure and just kind of get a bit of advice out there,
but also to publicize the sponsor walk. And back from that, we had so many opportunities to get the
word out there because two ex students are journalists. So one of the words of BBC. So we ended
up sharing our story in the BBC, BBC Breakfast and Southeast a day. And another one was for Metro. So
we had a story in Metro. So right from the start, we knew that our story was not totally unique because
we met another Scottish mum and daughter. But quite rare and a kind of interest story that might
allow us to get talking about it. And that was really, really great. But yeah, school have been
brilliant and the kids have been brilliant. Fantastic. And Fern, is it right that you're
training to become an oncology counselor to support other patients? Yeah, yeah. So my degree
is in social work and I went on to have the children, did loads of random things like grow a field of
pumpkins, never really knew what I wanted to do until this happened. And I discovered that
there's only like two counselors for everyone with cancer in our area. And I just thought it was so
valuable to my well-being. I don't know if you've been lucky enough to have any sort of therapy, but
it just makes the world of difference. So yeah, it's something that I really want to do and I'm
really looking forward to doing it. And my gut feeling is that I would like to do some sort of
integrated counselling because I feel that talking therapy is great, but also maybe a little
bit of CBT in there as well. You know, mindfulness, focusing on the now breath work for so many
elements to your well-being that I just think are so beneficial to people who've had breast cancer.
I would love to somehow tie it all together and provide, be able to provide something like that
for people who need it. Yes, that sounds like a fantastic way to use your negative experience to
give positive experiences to others and help others. And selfishness, I think I'd really enjoy
it. Absolutely, well that's important. Oh, you'd be really happy to enjoy it. And Fern, you've also
talked about when we think of breast cancer, we talk about feather-bowers and pink things and
coffee mornings, which can sometimes detract from the seriousness of the reality. What have you
learned from having breast cancer and is there anything you change in terms of how we talk about it
in the media? Oh, so much, so much. I think sometimes the media and certain organisations
worry too much about scaring people, but the reality is that it is still a really serious,
horrible illness that you can't take it lightly. And although we've got a lot of power now to check
early and it's so vital that people do, I do think a lot of, as we just said, feather-bowers and pink
cakes and, you know, oh, I did a boob walk or whatever, can make people feel like it's just a bit
of fun, but it's really, it's not. It's really serious. It's a really tricky one because you came
into this saying that when your mum was diagnosed and you didn't know anything about cancer, you
said you've got this and you're super positive and if I'm right, you got that attitude from
everything you've seen in the media, which includes the pink feather-bowers and the coffee
mornings and the boob walks, all of which are really important way to get people involved in
sponsorship and raising money for the charities, which is much needed for lots of different
endeavours. And if we've all seen, you know, comic relief when we see the sad images of the children
and, you know, illness and poverty, those things can make us switch off and when the messaging is too
harsh and too real, it can make us switch off. So where do we find the balance between those things?
I think there's an awful lot of, is it called pink washing? Yeah. I think there's an awful lot of that
going on where sometimes companies can jump on it as a way of... I think a lot of those ill-informed
ideas and beliefs come from social media as opposed to media as a whole. I think online
presences are really, can be quite detrimental because it's people freely giving any opinion,
whether it's a loaded toss or not, or you've got some of your conspiracy theories about chemo
and... Oh, HRT. Yeah, HRT had a whole new dimension to what was already a really tricky subject, but
that all influences how we see things, whether we realise it or not, clearly influenced what I
thought. Yeah. I don't know where we find the balance between those things, but I think it's a
mix of being real and sharing our experiences as you are doing and as we're trying to do with this
podcast, but also adding a lighter element as well, maybe? Yeah, absolutely. However we can do
that. Yeah. So for the question we ask everyone on this podcast, what is the one thing you would like
to see change in terms of breast cancer diagnosis, treatment and beyond in the coming years? I would
love to see when women get their smear tests, obviously we get those at a much longer age, I would
really love whoever does the smear test to say, have you checked your boobs lately? Because that,
if it's free, it won't cost the NHS anything, it takes seconds, but it brings to the patient that
they should be aware of it and that it will dispel any misconceptions that breast cancer only
happens to people who are of mammogram age. I think that's something really simple that could be done
that would just bring it to the forefront of younger women's lines. That's a great idea. So in
the cervical smear test that is done at people's GPs just for the nurse to ask, have you checked your
boobs lately? And maybe a leaflet or something. Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good idea. Chan. Oh,
that's really hard. Sorry to put you on the spot. Yeah, I think probably when we are talking about
it, just to be really explicit and saying to people, it really could happen to you. Because we
all hear so many stories or heard so many stories before us that are really heart breaking. You
think, oh that's awful. You know, like a friend of mine, her daughter was diagnosed just before
Covid, she was 30. And I thought that is just absolutely awful and I couldn't imagine when it
was like my friend for a daughter to be diagnosed. You know, but it didn't once cross my mind that that
could be my daughter. I don't know why to this day, why I didn't think that. But we just aren't used to
thinking. I'm really accepting that that could be us. So perhaps much more explicitly, you know,
this really could be you. Yeah. Make sure, sure that you understand that. Is there anything you'd
like to say to each other after this whole experience and after everything you've learned?
Just I love you. I know you need to stop beating yourself up about stuff. Because you've been
amazing mum, you still are. I'm so lucky to have you. Thank you. Well, I mean you're amazing. I'm
really proud of you. You're incredible. Oh, God, I've got tears here. Again, I'm going to have to
give you a big, big hug both of you after this. Fern and Jan, thank you so much for joining us on the
Breast Cancer Now podcast. Lovely punch then. The more people we can reach, the more we can get Breast
Cancer Now's vital resources to those who need them. You can find support and information on our
website, BreastCancernow.org, and you can follow Breast Cancer Now on social media at Breast
Cancer Now. All the links mentioned in this episode are listed in the show notes in your
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