This podcast contains the personal stories, opinions and experiences of its speakers, rather

than those of Breast Cancer Now. Welcome to the Breast Cancer Now podcast, providing support and

information to anyone affected by breast cancer. I'm Laura Price and I'm the host of the Breast

Cancer Now podcast. I'm a food writer and author and I live with secondary breast cancer. Today we

are talking to a mother and daughter who were diagnosed with breast cancer just weeks Fern

checked her breasts after her mum Jan was told she had cancer and Fern subsequently found out she had

cancer too. They've been going through treatment together since 2022 and they are now proudly

supporting ASDA's Tickle Pink Mother's Day campaign which supports Breast Cancer Now and

CoppaFeel. We're bringing you this episode for Mother's Day and we're going to be talking about

what it's like to be going through a diagnosis and treatment with a close family member and how that

experience can sometimes make you stronger. Fern and Jan, welcome to the Breast Cancer Now podcast.

Oh it's lovely to meet you both. So I'd love to start by getting to know you and finding out how you both

came to be diagnosed with cancer. So Jan, I'd like to start with you. Can you tell us how you were

diagnosed? Yes, so my diagnosis started well in my mind a year before because I had a tiny lump and some

thickening. I went to the GP who sent me to the two-week clinic and that was all checked and no, no

it was absolutely fine. It was just normal ageing so I went away happy, carried on with my life and

then several months later, I'm not sure how many, six, seven, the lump started to get bigger and I

just thought no, it's just a cyst that told me that and so I just sat on it really complacent and just

kind of thought I need to go to the GP and get that drained. You know, it's getting a bit of a pain,

it's quite big really but you know when it's life takes over and you're too busy and I knew it was an

assist and I've been told that it was fine but then it did really start to get quite big and quite hard

and I thought I really should go and get that drained and the back of my mind I think there was a

bit of denial going on because it clearly wasn't a cyst so I did finally go back to the GP who sent me

straight away back to the breast clinic and although when I had the ultrasound the look on the

doctor's face kind of gave it away when he looked at the floor and I said so do you think it's cancer?

When he said that's definitely not a cyst but he wouldn't tell me whether he thought it's cancer or

not but the lack of eye contact kind of gave it away but then I had a three three and a half week wait

until the biopsies came back by the end of which I did know it was because I'd been chasing up the

result and rang the hospital and the receptionist said oh they're just waiting for the her-to result

so that's how I found out. Did you know what her-to was? Well I went online and looked up her to and that

was that did confirm what I'd kind of really in my gut knew at that point. And how did it feel finding

out that it was cancer after such a long time of firstly being told that it wasn't and then being

just made to wait? Well it was really scary because obviously I was really really not be myself I'd sat

on it for so long and obviously I thought if this has been there for a year how bad is this? You know so I

was kind of expecting the worst and then how about they told me there was nothing wrong and but then

you know I should have been I should have been more on it because I'm sure they probably told me as well

that if if anything changed to go back but you don't hear everything do you? And life is always takes

precedence and you know you've got work to do and there's other things going on and you just push

that one to the back to the you know the background and that's really was not a good thing to do. And

what was the situation where you told that you could have treatment there and then? Yes I was they

did straight away booked me in for a CAT scan because there was a possibility that it'd been

there longer than you know the few weeks when it started to get bigger that came back clear which

was a huge relief and I was booked in for I think it was about three weeks until I had chemo and you know

after seeing my oncologist so the treatment did get started really really quickly but I felt quite

on top of it I didn't really feel as if it overwhelmed me and I was very I did say I would like

you to go back and re-examine what was looked at last year because if it was there then you know it's

you know someone needs to know that something was missed which they did and apparently when they

re-examined all of the scans and the imaging it wasn't anything cancerous there at that point but

it clearly had changed in the course of you know those five six months whatever it was. Okay well

we'll come back to your the treatment and everything that you had afterwards in a little

while but first I wanted to ask Fern we'll also talk about your own diagnosis but how did you feel first

of all when you found out your mum had cancer? Well stupidly I believed all those common

misconceptions about what a breast cancer diagnosis means so you think the best thing to do is

to be positive and try and share the positivity and encourage them to be strong and you know you've

you've got this and all those stereotypical sayings that I thought I was being such an amazing

support I was really proud of myself for being so supportive but it was only when I got my diagnosis

that I realised actually it's not about giving all that toxic positivity it's just about listening

and understanding to their experience because everyone's is so different. And even though you

were saying all these things you've got this and what not what what did you feel underneath were

you? Um I think because of the things that you see the really misleading stuff online stuff in the

news I think I genuinely believed it I think I genuinely believed oh it's only breast cancer I

can't believe I'm even saying that now but honestly that's how I felt this makes me cringe

even saying it but oh at least you're gonna get a boob job can't believe it honestly I'm so sorry to

say that out loud but that's honestly what I believed I believed it's okay you know it's a good

one all those classic misconceptions about what it means and how serious it is didn't really have a

clue I mean obviously I was scared because it's my mum and you know you don't want anything to happen

to your mum or you know go through a horrible experience anyway letting something like cancer

treatment um but I genuinely thought I was doing a good job of supporting and when you said it's a good

one did you mean it breast cancer is one of the good cancers if you were to get a cancer so I thought you

know it's easily treatable um you know all those things that you hear oh there's so much they can do

these days I could just reel off hundreds of those phrases that people just come out with thinking

that it's supportive and I know I did the exact same thing so how long was it until you got your own

diagnosis and how did you find that diagnosis so mums kind of spurred me on to check myself I did

always sporadically have a little check in the shower but never felt anything um and then I laid

down and I think I took it really seriously because obviously mum had just been diagnosed and I

noticed that there was a difference and it felt completely different to mums so mums was like a

rock mine was more like a thickened area um and I hope no one's eaten any cauliflower bang bang but

it felt a bit like a bit of cooked cauliflower that's sort of like um different slightly

different shape but you had to really look for it so because mum was just diagnosed I thought this has

got to be psychological I know there's a difference it was a real 50 50 I feel there's

something there but it it can't be the same time as mum it's got to be in my head it's got to be some kind

of worry showing itself as as like health anxiety or something like that so I kept it a little bit

played it on the down low a little bit with mum I didn't say anything until I just casually said uh

yeah I just want to let you know I found a lot I found a lump of my own I'm sure it's nothing to worry about

and I'm sure it's just because I'm worried about you but I just wanted to let you know sort of thing

but I'm sure it's nothing to worry about because the other aspect of it is that you feel like you're

kind of trying to take the attention away I don't know about your diagnosis but I've got a lump um

which is obviously ridiculous but that is an emotion that kind of came in to how I felt about it

and how seriously I took the different the difference in my boob so how soon did you find out

that you had cancer as well well mum had an appointment at our local breast clinic to have a

clip put in before our chemo because that was her first line of treatment with the chemo and I

happened to have been given an appointment to have the mammogram and a check with a consultant check

out this different area at the same time so we went up together had a nice bit of lunch convinced that I

was just there to support mum and that they were gonna well actually I wasn't convinced I think I

knew I think I did know deep down when I felt lumps under my armpit I think I did know but I think you did

I think that nice little meal wasn't nice at all do you think you did as well Jan do you think you knew as

well I think I remember that every minute of that meal it was a beautiful restaurant we were trying

to be so yeah I know it was we were trying to be so good about it but but at the same time you just think what

are the chances of this happening at the same time that I'm going to the same place that my mum is about

to start her treatment to be told I've got cancer I just thought this has got to be psychological so I

was really hanging on to that and so I went and you know what it's like it's horrible the biopsies and

luckily the what's it what's it called the lady that does the ultrasound ultrasound sonographer

is that right yeah I guess yeah she was fantastic and she had quite a different experience to you

where she did talk me through what she saw and I'd had a little google online before so I tried to

sound like I knew a little bit about what I was looking at I was like oh those edges don't look very

um differentiated or trying to sound I thought if I sound like I know what I'm talking about she might

be a bit more open with me and she was like no they're not and then I saw her measure in it and and then

she's measuring another area and I knew from speaking to an amazing nurse at breast cancer now

but when I was looking for support so that I could support mum in the right way that you know the

basically the more biopsies they take them you know the more they probably is and if it's under the

arm then it's probably lymph nodes and all that so I knew about the amount of biopsies I was having and

the size of the area that area of concern whatever they call it that it was quite large and the

consultant who had previously said before I went in for the ultrasound that you couldn't feel

anything sat me down and said I'm you've really surprised me I can say that it with you know you need

to expect cancer diagnosis because that is what it looks like um so then obviously you have to wait for

the biopsy results um but yeah that was the beginning of well I don't even have the words to

describe it really of trying to it's just like a bomb's gone off isn't it because it's just like

everything around is white noise and you just have to try and function the best you can with the way

that your mum had been sort of fobbed off I guess did you feel grateful at all that they said you should

expect a cancer diagnosis because they were a bit more straightforward with you absolutely yeah

really grateful and I think that mum's experience had prompted me to ask a lot more questions a bit a

lot more force come in with oh what does how big is that you know what are you while they're doing all

this I was trying to really find the strength to just get as much information as I could while I was

there and then yeah you sound like me I'm when I'm lying on a bed having whatever treatment whether

it's an ultrasound or a biopsy I'm always the annoying patient asking all the questions oh no I

think now yeah I think it is that thing if you want to know and very often if you don't ask you don't

necessarily find out because a lot of people don't want to so they don't necessarily always offer up

the information so it is good to ask I think but looking back I can see what the doctor said if she

was trying I think she said something like well it looks like it is something more serious than a cyst

and in my mind I thought well even a benevolent benign growth is more serious than a cyst isn't it

and I was thinking well it could just be a benign growth I don't know why I think of a denial yeah I

mean denial is a very very natural reaction I think to those scary situations it's definitely

something that and I had that as well actually um Jan so you've been diagnosed with breast cancer

and then you find out that your daughter has breast cancer too how did that feel on top of your own

diagnosis this is so hard to talk about this bit this is just the worst memory and the worst time

because when I had my own diagnosis um and it you you always think straight away this is it you know you

imagine your own funeral and everything and I'm sure everyone who does it gets any kind of cancer

diagnosis but then then quite soon I thought well you know I'm 58 I've got great family I've had a good

life even if it does come to that I can't really complain you know and thank goodness it's not the

children and that was one of the I kind of call it the polyanomomance thank goodness it's not this

thank goodness it's not the children or the grandchildren and then within a few weeks for it to

be fern it was well it was to be quite honest from that point on my own diagnosis was kind of just an

incidental because really your children are the most important thing in the world to you and I mean I

was I was horrified or terrified that I would be too ill to look to help to support fern because that's

what I wanted more than anything else was to be able to look after fern and I hadn't even started chemo I

actually we had fern's diagnosis was the day before I had my first chemo and I had no idea how it

was going to affect me and so I was just quite heartbroken really to think that I might be so ill

that I couldn't even support fern unless it happened that's you know that's not what happened

and we were a really good support to each other but that was my fear that I wouldn't be able to look

after and then of course you absolutely catastrophize everything you know looking far

ahead and thinking the absolute worst you know if the worst happened for both of us you know what

about the grandchildren and say it was the worst time yeah well moving on to that so fern you're a mum

too you have three young kids is that right so how did you deal with your cancer and your mum's cancer

around your kids did you tell them yeah so I knew they needed to know because I knew that they would

at the very least sense that something was going on and I didn't want them to feel that they weren't

privy or that I didn't trust them enough or that they I wanted them to know wholeheartedly that

they were getting the truth and that nothing was being hidden from them how old do they or how old

were they so at the time my eldest was 11 and then Isabella was 9 and then my youngest was 4 so

obviously very different ages and that meant that they can take in a lot too not very much at all and so

yeah watching them I knew that I had to tell them soon while I was in that bomb going off numb phase

because I knew that I'd kind of be overcome with emotion and it would get harder and harder as time

went by so as soon as I got home I just said to them you know what nanny's got I said well I've just been and

just been and had some tests and mummy's got it too but it's just a little bit worse and then obviously

they got upset and because they just didn't how I reacted to mum's diagnosis that's just yeah I mean

they've been amazing though they're just so strong and amazing children I'm sure there's

stuff bubbling away under there that they're going to have to deal with at some point but you know

they've actually been fantastic and I feel like they should be really proud of themselves while

they've handled everything do you use the word cancer with them absolutely yeah I mean it's so

common it's such it's a big part of human life cancer for one reason or another known on food or

genetics or whatever it is but and I feel like it's the same with death I feel we shouldn't shy away

from it because it's a big part of our lives isn't it and everyone's going to go through at some point so

absolutely yeah I wanted to say as well if anyone listening is in a similar situation there is a

brilliant episode that I listened to on this podcast after my diagnosis about explaining

breast cancer to young children with Elker Thompson so we'll put that link in the show notes

for anyone who'd like to find the episode so um Furn you mentioned that when you were talking to your

kids you said mommy's got the same thing as grandma and it's a little bit worse so could you tell me

about each of your diagnoses and what stage the cancer was at what treatment you had to have yeah of

course yeah so um strangely even though mum's lump felt bigger my lump was bigger so I was uh

technically 3c you are what was your stage 2 stage 2 grade 3 yeah so mine was quite a big hard lump yeah

but it was it was in the breast I didn't have anything and we are fortunately going to be doing

another episode um which will come out after your episode which explains the stages and the grades

and the language and the wording around cancer so because I even after 12 years of experiencing

cancer I still don't fully understand the difference between grade and stage so um but yeah

when I was first diagnosed I found this podcast really helpful to listen to so I know that that will

go down a storm hopefully yeah so um but neither had spread so neither would still have primary cancer

a lot of nodes but so far yeah it's just primary yeah it was an awful weight wasn't it for your the best

yeah because I could feel so many lumps under my armpit after knowing how to check properly um I was

convinced and I had some back pain as well so I was pretty resigned to the fact that I probably was

looking at um uh spread but I was like would have it um because mum was diagnosed that could have been

what what prevented my you know initial diagnosis from being so yeah that's a really positive way of

looking at it isn't it that your mum yeah maybe I mean if mum wasn't diagnosed I wouldn't have

checked or at least I wouldn't have checked well enough to have taken it seriously I mean I was

getting symptoms that I was ignoring like arm pain um pain in the chest like back pain completely

ignoring it just because I thought I was where I picked up something funny or yeah and what

treatment and surgery did you have to have um so I had a mastectomy followed and node clearance and

then chemo um eight rounds of chemo which where we live there was quite a delay on the chemo and and mum

went in to have her pre-chemo blood and my wait for the chemo was so long that when I finally went in to

have my pre-chemo blood done the um HTA said to me oh we had a mum in here on Friday begging for her

daughter to um have her place for chemo um and I thought yeah that's my mum cheers so your mum was

trying to get her place given to you so that you could have your chemo yeah oh that's mum's that's

mum's for you isn't it you do the same for your kids I imagine you would but just the idea of your mum

trying to sort of give away her spot to you well it's just like when you're waiting for this treatment

every every day you just think come on get up on the call I want to have the treatment yeah you're

making me really emotional no it's just that thought isn't it of things that your mum would do

for you or things that you would do for your children yeah it's really yeah fun I was looking

through your instagram post uh I hope you don't mind that right yeah and um you said that when you

finished chemotherapy you felt like you looked in the mirror and you felt like an empty shell of a

person yeah and that is I think it's almost the exact phrasing I used when I finished my chemo like

11 years ago really really resonate with that feeling of you should be getting better and the

cancer the chemotherapy is making your cancer better but you feel like you've just been driven

down you know drilled down with this chemotherapy spiral and you just feel empty how has your

recovery been from that and have you managed to get yourself back yeah um I think a lot of people say you

never yourself again you lose yourself I don't necessarily agree with that because I think that

although you might feel lost at the end and you know like we just talked about that feeling of being a

shell where you know the medicines and experiences and emotional overwhelm has just

annihilated you you are still in there and I think you just build on top of that and I think if you're

lucky enough to have the right support you can use that you know like there's so many amazing people

like you Laura just inspirational that you can use that to sort of make the fire to move forward a

little bit and it's all part of me anyway that's who I was anyway and so now I'm just really happy to be

able to be back there and there's things like I was listening to your episode with em, is it yes

Transcript. Transcript. Transcript. Transcript. Transcript. Transcript.

Transcript. Transcript. Transcript. Trust-fif amigo more easy to deal with now, like hair, like,

I've got one, babe. Well, how can I dress for that? Rather than, how long am I gonna be? And I feel like

our experience has allowed us to share so much important information because we were both

diagnosed alongside each other. We really could compare the different symptoms and how different

they were. So I just wanna share how important it is to look for changes in yourself, not for a specific

symptom. Yeah, and I'd really like to reiterate not to be complacent and, you know, don't just sit

on things as soon as you... Do you know, whenever you say that, I imagine you sit in on your boob. I

actually, I thought I've had the same image as well because earlier on you talked about finding a lump

and then sitting on it. Well, that brings me to the next thing, which is that you've got involved with

breast cancer awareness charity, Copperfield, as a boobette to help educate other young people

about the importance of self-checking. And that's something I've been doing for a long time as

well. I'm an OG boobette. Why was it important to you to help others? Just because we discovered how

common it was, the fact that we both were diagnosed at the same time speaks volumes and how prevalent

it is in people. And also how differently our symptoms presented. I just thought that was

something really valuable that we could share. And we were shocked at just how many young women are

being diagnosed with it. And it just felt like you really need to go and shout this from the rooftops.

And you really need to encourage everyone, not only to check themselves, but to their daughters.

You know, because that's one of my... I looked back and I think, why didn't I talk to Fern? I wouldn't

check. I listened to you anyway, Mum. Well, no, I know that's true. I know you would have been really

annoyed if I'd done that, but looking back, I think why didn't I tell them to check? I think you

shouldn't beat yourself up, Mum. I think we've done amazing. But I'm pretty good, Mum. So you just

want... Yeah, I just want people to talk about it with each other and talk to their family and their

friends. It's hard though, isn't it? You know, how do you bring that conversation up? With breast,

when you've had a diagnosis, it can almost be easier to talk about it, because you have to. Oh,

totally. How do you approach telling your daughter about checking their boobs? And other

people, I mean, my dad said that he bumped into a lady friend, a lady friend. But someone who knows

who is an older lady, what did he say? And I said, I hope you're checking your boobs. I won't. He said

it's a bit old. But again, it's hard to... You know, you want to spread the message, but in some

situations, it does have some social... ...deconitations that are a little bit awkward.

Yeah. But yeah. You've also talked fun about the difficulty or the differences in checking when

you have bigger boobs. Yeah. Can you tell us about that? Absolutely. So I found the only way I noticed

a difference was by laying down and even then laying at a certain angle. Then you could really

see the orange peel dimpling and all the symptoms that we commonly talk about. But also in

hindsight, I really should have taken the lumps under my armpit more seriously. I just assumed

that there was some... I had a spot nearby that was making them all an infection or something that was

making them enlarged. Yeah. So I had to say mums. It was right there to the point where I was saying to my

husband, I can't believe she's lifted. It's so huge. There is a list of signs and symptoms and ways

to check, both on the Breast Cancer Now website and on the Copperfield website as well. And I was told

yesterday while I was in the Copperfield headquarters that there's a quick exit button. So

if you're worried about... You know, your older parents might not approve of... You're looking at

a website which involves checking your chest. You can press a button which quickly gets rid of it all

from your computer. Oh, okay. That's something that I don't about you if you do a talk that I often

get approached by children at the end that say, oh, what if I find something? My parents wouldn't like

me knowing that I've checked or, you know, which is just heartbreaking, isn't it? Yeah, that's

really... I mean, we just need to be educating the parents rather than finding the quick exit

button. Absolutely, yeah. Which is why it's important to, you know, talk about this more... as

widely as possible. So hopefully if someone's listened to this podcast, maybe they'll decide to

share it with someone who... Like their boss or... Someone who they... Or their brother or something

that wouldn't normally necessarily be... feel comfortable talking about checking boobs. So

you're also both supporting Asda's Tickle Pink campaign for Mother's Day 2024. Can you tell us

about that? Yes, actually really exciting, isn't it? We were talking yesterday saying how great it

is that they do this campaign so far away from October. So you have, like, the big rush in October

of breast cancer awareness month and then the Mother's Day check. It's kind of enough time for

people to have forgotten a little bit about it and then it hopefully will encourage another drive of

people to go and get checked. And the other really nice thing that I learned about the Asda campaign

is that it was pushed forward by people that work at Asda. I just think that's amazing. So it's not a

publicity campaign. It's genuinely staff that work at Asda who really cared and, you know, no

people have been diagnosed and they wanted to make it a thing which I think is so lovely. So what are you

doing for the campaign? Well, we're not really doing that much, if I'm honest. We've got a picture

and a bit of cardboard. In the stores. In the stores, yeah, which is pretty cool. I do look

totally different in the picture so I'm pretty sure even if I stood next to it you wouldn't

recognise me. I was right in the store of the odd to start chemo and you just had... Yeah, so at least I

really long blonde hair and now it's come back so dark. It's like a different hair. It's really

straight. But really it was just about sharing our story and hopefully our story will encourage

people to buy some of their merch. Is that Copperfield merch or Asda? In Asda they're

selling a range of stuff and I think the money goes to breast cancer now in Copperfield which I don't

think there are any better charities out there. No, true. Yeah. Fantastic. And can you... So

you've experienced the worst and you've experienced some fun parts as well together. How

has this experience brought you together, bonded you, or has it done the opposite? How's it been for

your relationship? I think it's actually been really beneficial for our relationship because

we understood what it means. We could talk about certain medical professionals that have some

interesting traits about their style. We do have the same oncology as that one. Because I think even

though obviously cancer diagnosis of any kind is horrific, there's always something to be

grateful for, the Mat House Mall. And I think most people go through it on their own and have to go out

there and find online communities and listen to podcasts. And deal with everyone like me, like I

was at the beginning, go, you got this, you... You used to get moved on. Actually you've earned that

bad fat. Oh, look back on that. No, it was quite helpful actually being positive. But yeah,

whereas we weren't alone. I know obviously we had different types of breast cancer and Fern

Blesser, her response to chemo was horrendous compared to mine, but I did know what it was like to

have quite a harsh chemo regime. I did know what it was like for your hair to fall out and your eyebrows

and eyelashes. Just knowing that there's sort of routine. They are, but it was... As your mum, it

was... I knew what you were going through and it kind of weirdly kind of felt better to know that I

was supporting you from a place of experience and from a place of understanding. Absolutely. Jan, I

think I know entirely what you're saying and I went through breast cancer when I was 29 with my mum who

didn't have breast cancer and I can't speak for her obviously, but I feel like she felt helpless

because she wasn't going for... And I think I remember her saying she would happily have gone

through it instead of me any day. She listens to this podcast, so hi mum. Hi mum. Happy Mother's

Day. But yeah, I think it totally makes sense what you're saying basically about that it helped that

you were going through it because it helped you to understand what Fern was going through. And I kind

of almost felt happier that I had it as well, but in fact I would rather we'd swapped and I had Ferns and

she'd had mine. But that's not possible obviously. You just know, you just know one knows.

No, one knows how these things are going to turn out. No, that's true. Some people have the tiniest

lump that comes back really quickly. You just don't know. No, not at all and you obviously can't

control it and you didn't make it happen in the first place. Exactly, yeah. But one of the first

things that a lot of people would think about when you're both diagnosed in the same family is was it

hereditary, was it a genetic thing? So I believe you've had genetic testing to find out if you had

any genetic faults? Yeah, we did, yeah. I mean, obviously originally we had no idea. We didn't

have any relatives who had had breast cancer. But it was only because of my age that we could go and

have the genetic testing, which again kind of helped each other out in a strange way. And we both

have a 40 check 2 gene, which... Check 2? Check 2? Oh, I haven't even heard of that one. Exactly,

apparently in different some... It's not new, it's been known about for a long time but it's just

the testing for it because it's only a moderate risk, which a moderate risk. A lot of areas don't

even test for it. So you could have a genetic test if you're living in a certain area and you don't even

know that you actually do have a 40 gene. So yeah, I feel really lucky that we got even to be tested for

that. I mean, in fact, I would not have heard the test and it does... It's not really as bad as the

brachygene, but it's still at the top end, which is where we are, it increases your risk of... I

haven't pressed the answer to a 1 in 3. So it's still quite a high risk. Yeah, that's pretty high and

also when you've had breast cancer, well, you are that 1 in 3. And then your chance of getting it in the

other breast is also higher. But I wouldn't have been able to have the genetic testing. And it's

only because I had the genetic testing after ferns came back positive that I was able to say I would

like a mastectomy, whereas I was all set to have a lumpectomy. And as it happened, something had

been missed. And after the mastectomy, after they looked at the tissue, lo and behold, there was

quite a lot of DCISLs where in the breast that would have been missed if I hadn't had that mastectomy.

So it's weird how it's hard to diagnose a cup of tea. Yeah, wow. Serendipity. So, yeah, I mean, and

again, knowledge is power, right? You found out this information that has then helped you and

helped each other. You live next door to each other, I think. How did that help you to support

each other through treatment? With the children. Oh, yeah, it was like, I'll say nice in the weirdest

possible way. But yeah, it was so nice to be able to be like, if I was, you know, if you're having a

cycle, sometimes parts of it are worse than other parts. And if one of us was having a bad time, that

meant the other one could look after my children or I could grab something food-wise for mum or

whatever. It just helped so much. Yeah, and even if the kids could sort of pot around to me sometimes,

and it didn't really matter if I wasn't feeling great because I could just, I said, that's fine,

I'll just lie on the set and they can just play whatever I'm telling. Yeah. And it, yeah, it was, I

often thought, I can't imagine what this would be like if we had even a half an hour drive to get to each

other. It would have been so much harder. And I wonder if talking about it retrospectively, I

wonder if it's both having it kind of normalized a bit for them. So maybe it did. Well, yeah. Yeah.

Yes. And what about, what's the support been like from the rest of your family? My husband has been

incredible. He's got a business to run, which he does so well at. He's a fantastic dad. I just feel so

lucky to have him. He's such a positive person, not in a toxic positive way, but I honestly could not

have done it without him. And he's been incredible. And my dad as well, obviously mum's

husband, he's just lovely as well. And he's so clever. He's just been, they've both been

amazing, really incredible. And the kids as well. John will kids. They'll listen to this one. Yeah.

Yeah. And Janet, is it right that you're a school teacher? Yes. And have you managed to go back to

work? Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have. And I've been really open about the diagnosis. And it was really

sweet when I was off sick. I had lots of messages from members of our mental group and kids that I'd

taught. I was regularly in touch with six formers. And in fact, I did a sponsor walk last year with some

friends. And I thought, oh, I'll put something on the alumni website. And the main thing really was

just to get all the young women check in and make sure and just kind of get a bit of advice out there,

but also to publicize the sponsor walk. And back from that, we had so many opportunities to get the

word out there because two ex students are journalists. So one of the words of BBC. So we ended

up sharing our story in the BBC, BBC Breakfast and Southeast a day. And another one was for Metro. So

we had a story in Metro. So right from the start, we knew that our story was not totally unique because

we met another Scottish mum and daughter. But quite rare and a kind of interest story that might

allow us to get talking about it. And that was really, really great. But yeah, school have been

brilliant and the kids have been brilliant. Fantastic. And Fern, is it right that you're

training to become an oncology counselor to support other patients? Yeah, yeah. So my degree

is in social work and I went on to have the children, did loads of random things like grow a field of

pumpkins, never really knew what I wanted to do until this happened. And I discovered that

there's only like two counselors for everyone with cancer in our area. And I just thought it was so

valuable to my well-being. I don't know if you've been lucky enough to have any sort of therapy, but

it just makes the world of difference. So yeah, it's something that I really want to do and I'm

really looking forward to doing it. And my gut feeling is that I would like to do some sort of

integrated counselling because I feel that talking therapy is great, but also maybe a little

bit of CBT in there as well. You know, mindfulness, focusing on the now breath work for so many

elements to your well-being that I just think are so beneficial to people who've had breast cancer.

I would love to somehow tie it all together and provide, be able to provide something like that

for people who need it. Yes, that sounds like a fantastic way to use your negative experience to

give positive experiences to others and help others. And selfishness, I think I'd really enjoy

it. Absolutely, well that's important. Oh, you'd be really happy to enjoy it. And Fern, you've also

talked about when we think of breast cancer, we talk about feather-bowers and pink things and

coffee mornings, which can sometimes detract from the seriousness of the reality. What have you

learned from having breast cancer and is there anything you change in terms of how we talk about it

in the media? Oh, so much, so much. I think sometimes the media and certain organisations

worry too much about scaring people, but the reality is that it is still a really serious,

horrible illness that you can't take it lightly. And although we've got a lot of power now to check

early and it's so vital that people do, I do think a lot of, as we just said, feather-bowers and pink

cakes and, you know, oh, I did a boob walk or whatever, can make people feel like it's just a bit

of fun, but it's really, it's not. It's really serious. It's a really tricky one because you came

into this saying that when your mum was diagnosed and you didn't know anything about cancer, you

said you've got this and you're super positive and if I'm right, you got that attitude from

everything you've seen in the media, which includes the pink feather-bowers and the coffee

mornings and the boob walks, all of which are really important way to get people involved in

sponsorship and raising money for the charities, which is much needed for lots of different

endeavours. And if we've all seen, you know, comic relief when we see the sad images of the children

and, you know, illness and poverty, those things can make us switch off and when the messaging is too

harsh and too real, it can make us switch off. So where do we find the balance between those things?

I think there's an awful lot of, is it called pink washing? Yeah. I think there's an awful lot of that

going on where sometimes companies can jump on it as a way of... I think a lot of those ill-informed

ideas and beliefs come from social media as opposed to media as a whole. I think online

presences are really, can be quite detrimental because it's people freely giving any opinion,

whether it's a loaded toss or not, or you've got some of your conspiracy theories about chemo

and... Oh, HRT. Yeah, HRT had a whole new dimension to what was already a really tricky subject, but

that all influences how we see things, whether we realise it or not, clearly influenced what I

thought. Yeah. I don't know where we find the balance between those things, but I think it's a

mix of being real and sharing our experiences as you are doing and as we're trying to do with this

podcast, but also adding a lighter element as well, maybe? Yeah, absolutely. However we can do

that. Yeah. So for the question we ask everyone on this podcast, what is the one thing you would like

to see change in terms of breast cancer diagnosis, treatment and beyond in the coming years? I would

love to see when women get their smear tests, obviously we get those at a much longer age, I would

really love whoever does the smear test to say, have you checked your boobs lately? Because that,

if it's free, it won't cost the NHS anything, it takes seconds, but it brings to the patient that

they should be aware of it and that it will dispel any misconceptions that breast cancer only

happens to people who are of mammogram age. I think that's something really simple that could be done

that would just bring it to the forefront of younger women's lines. That's a great idea. So in

the cervical smear test that is done at people's GPs just for the nurse to ask, have you checked your

boobs lately? And maybe a leaflet or something. Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good idea. Chan. Oh,

that's really hard. Sorry to put you on the spot. Yeah, I think probably when we are talking about

it, just to be really explicit and saying to people, it really could happen to you. Because we

all hear so many stories or heard so many stories before us that are really heart breaking. You

think, oh that's awful. You know, like a friend of mine, her daughter was diagnosed just before

Covid, she was 30. And I thought that is just absolutely awful and I couldn't imagine when it

was like my friend for a daughter to be diagnosed. You know, but it didn't once cross my mind that that

could be my daughter. I don't know why to this day, why I didn't think that. But we just aren't used to

thinking. I'm really accepting that that could be us. So perhaps much more explicitly, you know,

this really could be you. Yeah. Make sure, sure that you understand that. Is there anything you'd

like to say to each other after this whole experience and after everything you've learned?

Just I love you. I know you need to stop beating yourself up about stuff. Because you've been

amazing mum, you still are. I'm so lucky to have you. Thank you. Well, I mean you're amazing. I'm

really proud of you. You're incredible. Oh, God, I've got tears here. Again, I'm going to have to

give you a big, big hug both of you after this. Fern and Jan, thank you so much for joining us on the

Breast Cancer Now podcast. Lovely punch then. The more people we can reach, the more we can get Breast

Cancer Now's vital resources to those who need them. You can find support and information on our

website, BreastCancernow.org, and you can follow Breast Cancer Now on social media at Breast

Cancer Now. All the links mentioned in this episode are listed in the show notes in your

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