PRODUCER: Please note: this podcast contains mention of

PRODUCER: child sexual abuse.

PRODUCER: In 2015, the Independent Inquiry into Child

PRODUCER: Sexual Abuse was set up to investigate where

PRODUCER: institutions failed to protect children in their

PRODUCER: care.

PRODUCER: The inquiry's final report, published in October

PRODUCER: 2022, laid out a set of powerful recommendations

PRODUCER: to address past failings and protect future

PRODUCER: generations of children from abuse.

PRODUCER: Recommendations for Change is a five-part

PRODUCER: podcast series from NSPCC Learning, examining

PRODUCER: why these recommendations are needed, how

PRODUCER: they'll work if implemented, and what impact

PRODUCER: they will have on the prevention of child sexual

PRODUCER: abuse.

PRODUCER: Episode three: children in care.

PRODUCER: Children in care or looked after children are a

PRODUCER: particularly vulnerable group.

PRODUCER: Many young people enter care because they have

PRODUCER: been abused or neglected and looked after

PRODUCER: children might move in and out of care, or

PRODUCER: between care placements, frequently.

PRODUCER: These experiences can leave children with

PRODUCER: complex emotional and mental health needs, which

PRODUCER: can increase their vulnerability to abuse and

PRODUCER: exploitation.

PRODUCER: The Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse

PRODUCER: found that, rather than being protected, many

PRODUCER: vulnerable children who entered care were

PRODUCER: subject to further abuse.

PRODUCER: In this episode, we will be looking in detail at

PRODUCER: the findings relating to children in care.

PRODUCER: To kick things off, I spoke to Claire Sands,

PRODUCER: Associate Head of Research at the NSPCC,

PRODUCER: to get a clearer understanding of the

PRODUCER: demographic of children currently in care in

PRODUCER: England and Wales, as well as their additional

PRODUCER: needs and challenges.

CLAIRE SANDS: Well, the number of looked after children

CLAIRE SANDS: has been increasing year-on-year since 2010.

CLAIRE SANDS: In the year ending 31st March 2023, there

CLAIRE SANDS: were 83,840 looked after

CLAIRE SANDS: children in local authority care in England,

CLAIRE SANDS: and this increase in demand has coincided

CLAIRE SANDS: with a reduction in funding of public

CLAIRE SANDS: services, including children's social care.

CLAIRE SANDS: We know from the data that the majority of

CLAIRE SANDS: children are in care because of abuse and

CLAIRE SANDS: neglect. The latest figures show that 65%

CLAIRE SANDS: of children in care in England, and 61.5%

CLAIRE SANDS: in Wales, were in care for these reasons.

CLAIRE SANDS: And in 2023, roughly 1 in 10 children in

CLAIRE SANDS: England and Wales experienced high

CLAIRE SANDS: instability in care.

CLAIRE SANDS: And this is when they have three or more

CLAIRE SANDS: different care placements in one year.

CLAIRE SANDS: So they're moving around a lot.

CLAIRE SANDS: And placement instability can have a

CLAIRE SANDS: detrimental impact on a child's emotional

CLAIRE SANDS: wellbeing and mental health.

CLAIRE SANDS: It can also prevent them from forming stable

CLAIRE SANDS: relationships with the adults who could help

CLAIRE SANDS: protect them.

CLAIRE SANDS: Children in care are more likely to have

CLAIRE SANDS: suffered hardship and trauma than their

CLAIRE SANDS: peers, and they may display challenging

CLAIRE SANDS: behaviour as a result of their experiences,

CLAIRE SANDS: and some find it hard to develop positive

CLAIRE SANDS: relationships with their peers and to trust

CLAIRE SANDS: adults.

CLAIRE SANDS: They're also more likely to go missing than

CLAIRE SANDS: children who are not in care.

CLAIRE SANDS: In 2023, missing incidents were reported for

CLAIRE SANDS: 12,740 children living in care,

CLAIRE SANDS: and almost two thirds of these missing

CLAIRE SANDS: incidents related to children who were in

CLAIRE SANDS: residential settings.

CLAIRE SANDS: Children might run away for any number of

CLAIRE SANDS: reasons, including to escape sexual abuse.

CLAIRE SANDS: A thematic assessment of IICSA Truth Project

CLAIRE SANDS: accounts found that 24% of children abused

CLAIRE SANDS: in residential contexts ran away.

CLAIRE SANDS: These factors, including the absence of peer

CLAIRE SANDS: and adult support networks, previous

CLAIRE SANDS: experiences of abuse and neglect, and

CLAIRE SANDS: increased likelihood of going missing, mean

CLAIRE SANDS: children in care are much more vulnerable to

CLAIRE SANDS: sexual abuse and exploitation.

PRODUCER: During the course of their investigations, what

PRODUCER: problems with the children's social care system

PRODUCER: did IICSA identify that impacted

PRODUCER: the safety and wellbeing of children in care?

CLAIRE SANDS: IICSA reported that institutional settings,

CLAIRE SANDS: including residential care, were prone to

CLAIRE SANDS: failures of leadership; a lack of concern

CLAIRE SANDS: for the welfare of the child; and

CLAIRE SANDS: inadequate, and sometimes wholly absent,

CLAIRE SANDS: child protection arrangements.

CLAIRE SANDS: The inquiry found that institutions

CLAIRE SANDS: sometimes prioritised their own reputations

CLAIRE SANDS: above the protection of children.

CLAIRE SANDS: Senior people in many of the institutions

CLAIRE SANDS: studied by the inquiry were rarely held

CLAIRE SANDS: accountable for sexual abuse that had

CLAIRE SANDS: occurred in their own institution.

CLAIRE SANDS: Power imbalances were exploited in some

CLAIRE SANDS: children's homes, where some staff treated

CLAIRE SANDS: children as undeserving of protection from

CLAIRE SANDS: sexual abuse.

CLAIRE SANDS: There was evidence of victim blaming

CLAIRE SANDS: language in almost every institution, and

CLAIRE SANDS: this went largely unchallenged.

CLAIRE SANDS: In some areas, children who were from ethnic

CLAIRE SANDS: minority communities were subject to racism

CLAIRE SANDS: by care staff.

CLAIRE SANDS: Across some institutions, there was little

CLAIRE SANDS: recognition that children with disabilities

CLAIRE SANDS: were more vulnerable to being sexually

CLAIRE SANDS: abused.

CLAIRE SANDS: The physical environment of some care

CLAIRE SANDS: settings, such as those with unsupervised

CLAIRE SANDS: outbuildings or extensive grounds, presented

CLAIRE SANDS: opportunities for sexual abuse to be

CLAIRE SANDS: perpetrated.

CLAIRE SANDS: Residential care in the 1970s and 1980s

CLAIRE SANDS: carried little priority with senior managers

CLAIRE SANDS: and local authorities, even when they were

CLAIRE SANDS: made aware of escalating numbers of

CLAIRE SANDS: allegations of sexual abuse.

CLAIRE SANDS: Many institutions knowingly retained in

CLAIRE SANDS: their employment adults who posed a risk to

CLAIRE SANDS: children.

CLAIRE SANDS: People classed as volunteers were often

CLAIRE SANDS: allowed open access to children in care

CLAIRE SANDS: without any vetting, and in some instances

CLAIRE SANDS: a sexualised culture existed in residential

CLAIRE SANDS: homes.

CLAIRE SANDS: Although standards of conduct and child

CLAIRE SANDS: protection procedures were frequently put in

CLAIRE SANDS: place, staff were rarely trained and in

CLAIRE SANDS: their use and action was not taken against

CLAIRE SANDS: those who did not comply with those

CLAIRE SANDS: standards.

CLAIRE SANDS: In the 1980s, there was additionally

CLAIRE SANDS: evidence of failures to vet foster carers

CLAIRE SANDS: properly for their suitability to look after

CLAIRE SANDS: children. When allegations of sexual abuse

CLAIRE SANDS: were made about foster carers, some councils

CLAIRE SANDS: were too willing to disbelieve the child.

CLAIRE SANDS: Indeed, complaints of abuse made by children

CLAIRE SANDS: were rarely listened to by institutions and

CLAIRE SANDS: were often dismissed without investigation.

CLAIRE SANDS: Strengthening the safeguarding systems

CLAIRE SANDS: within children's social care is a

CLAIRE SANDS: continuous task, and it's vital that we

CLAIRE SANDS: learn from IICSA and implement their

CLAIRE SANDS: recommendations.

PRODUCER: The final report makes clear the need to enact

PRODUCER: changes that create a safer environment for

PRODUCER: children living in care.

PRODUCER: The final report refers to a "patchy and

PRODUCER: incomplete" regulation of professions working

PRODUCER: with children in England and Wales.

PRODUCER: To find out more about how children's homes are

PRODUCER: currently regulated, I spoke to Patricia Cannon,

PRODUCER: a solicitor and head of family and childcare at

PRODUCER: law firm Simpson Millar.

PATRICIA CANNON: So, there is a Children's Homes

PATRICIA CANNON: Regulations Act, which is

PATRICIA CANNON: from 2015, and it sets nine quality

PATRICIA CANNON: standards for children's homes.

PATRICIA CANNON: I'll just detail a little bit of the

PATRICIA CANNON: standards that it sets.

PATRICIA CANNON: The first standard is the standard of

PATRICIA CANNON: care quality and purpose.

PATRICIA CANNON: So the idea around that standard is to

PATRICIA CANNON: address the needs of a child from a

PATRICIA CANNON: physical, emotional and psychological

PATRICIA CANNON: perspective.

PATRICIA CANNON: It's intended to promote growth and

PATRICIA CANNON: development so that it meets the

PATRICIA CANNON: particular needs of an individual child.

PATRICIA CANNON: Then there's also the children's views,

PATRICIA CANNON: wishes and feelings standard.

PATRICIA CANNON: It's designed to allow children a voice

PATRICIA CANNON: in decisions about their lives.

PATRICIA CANNON: It's set to allow children's opinions

PATRICIA CANNON: to be gathered and they should be

PATRICIA CANNON: listened to.

PATRICIA CANNON: There's the education standard, which

PATRICIA CANNON: requires suitable education provision to

PATRICIA CANNON: be provided to a child.

PATRICIA CANNON: There's the enjoyment and achievement

PATRICIA CANNON: standard. This is to encourage and foster

PATRICIA CANNON: positive relationships.

PATRICIA CANNON: Often children who are in children's

PATRICIA CANNON: homes don't have support networks.

PATRICIA CANNON: They've arrived from very difficult

PATRICIA CANNON: circumstances, and this is intended to

PATRICIA CANNON: help them develop their social skills,

PATRICIA CANNON: their emotional resilience, and also to

PATRICIA CANNON: help them develop a support network.

PATRICIA CANNON: There's the health and wellbeing

PATRICIA CANNON: standard. This covers emotional and

PATRICIA CANNON: physical care and should allow for access

PATRICIA CANNON: to mental health services as well.

PATRICIA CANNON: There's the protection of children

PATRICIA CANNON: standard, which addresses the importance

PATRICIA CANNON: of providing safe and secure living for

PATRICIA CANNON: children. And that should also cover the

PATRICIA CANNON: vetting of staff that work with children,

PATRICIA CANNON: and there should be processes for

PATRICIA CANNON: incident reporting and protocols for

PATRICIA CANNON: emergencies.

PATRICIA CANNON: The idea of the standard is to ensure

PATRICIA CANNON: that children are protected from harm and

PATRICIA CANNON: maltreatment.

PATRICIA CANNON: There's the leadership and management

PATRICIA CANNON: standard, which addresses the need for

PATRICIA CANNON: management structures to be in place so

PATRICIA CANNON: that there are skilled people working

PATRICIA CANNON: with children, maintaining high standards

PATRICIA CANNON: so that children have a consistent

PATRICIA CANNON: experience of the care that they are

PATRICIA CANNON: given. And then there's the care planning

PATRICIA CANNON: standard. This covers the needs for

PATRICIA CANNON: personalised care for children.

PATRICIA CANNON: So it would promote bespoke planning

PATRICIA CANNON: to help young people to develop

PATRICIA CANNON: opportunities for their future as well.

PATRICIA CANNON: The Children's Homes

PATRICIA CANNON: is inspected by Ofsted and it can assess

PATRICIA CANNON: those criteria which I've just described.

PATRICIA CANNON: Those are the ways that children's homes

PATRICIA CANNON: are regulated.

PRODUCER: And what are the regulatory requirements for

PRODUCER: people working with children in care settings?

PATRICIA CANNON: Sure, so, for those working with children

PATRICIA CANNON: in children's homes, they should undergo

PATRICIA CANNON: a criminal records check before taking up

PATRICIA CANNON: a position.

PATRICIA CANNON: It's described as DBS, which is the

PATRICIA CANNON: Disclosure Barring Service.

PATRICIA CANNON: So the idea is that it would reveal if

PATRICIA CANNON: someone is barred from engaging in

PATRICIA CANNON: regulated activity, for example, working

PATRICIA CANNON: with children.

PATRICIA CANNON: There are also regulations which set

PATRICIA CANNON: out information which an employer

PATRICIA CANNON: should check as to a person's suitability

PATRICIA CANNON: to work in a children's home, for

PATRICIA CANNON: example, proof of identity.

PATRICIA CANNON: They would need the DBS certificate,

PATRICIA CANNON: references, verification as far as

PATRICIA CANNON: possible as to the reason why they may

PATRICIA CANNON: have left their previous employment, or

PATRICIA CANNON: why their position might have ended.

PATRICIA CANNON: There should be documentary evidence of

PATRICIA CANNON: any qualifications that the person has

PATRICIA CANNON: that are relevant to the position, as

PATRICIA CANNON: well as a full employment history, and

PATRICIA CANNON: these records should be available for

PATRICIA CANNON: inspection if so required.

PATRICIA CANNON: What I would say about that is that where

PATRICIA CANNON: there is a concern that an individual may

PATRICIA CANNON: pose a risk of harm to children,

PATRICIA CANNON: employers have a legal duty to notify the

PATRICIA CANNON: DBS, for example, when they've dismissed

PATRICIA CANNON: an individual or where there is a

PATRICIA CANNON: reason that that individual has resigned

PATRICIA CANNON: from their role.

PATRICIA CANNON: But despite this, the DBS has indicated

PATRICIA CANNON: that it doesn't receive the number of

PATRICIA CANNON: referrals it would expect to from

PATRICIA CANNON: employers.

PRODUCER: So IICSA's recommendations nine and ten are

PRODUCER: about strengthening the use of the DBS barred

PRODUCER: list. What might this look like in practice?

PATRICIA CANNON: So, supervisory authorities have the

PATRICIA CANNON: power to refer individuals to the DBS

PATRICIA CANNON: so that they may be included on the

PATRICIA CANNON: barred list, but they don't have a legal

PATRICIA CANNON: duty to refer or to share information

PATRICIA CANNON: unless in response to a specific request,

PATRICIA CANNON: so that leaves it a little bit open.

PATRICIA CANNON: And the report that we're discussing

PATRICIA CANNON: remained concerned that individuals were

PATRICIA CANNON: not always being referred to the DBS, so

PATRICIA CANNON: that means that they could move on to a

PATRICIA CANNON: different setting without their risk

PATRICIA CANNON: being properly considered in their new

PATRICIA CANNON: working environment.

PRODUCER: The proposals around the DBS that Patricia just

PRODUCER: explained are part of IICSA's broader

PRODUCER: consideration of safer recruitment practices.

PRODUCER: The IICSA final report says that safer

PRODUCER: recruitment is, quote, "a central aspect

PRODUCER: of keeping children safe", but that "throughout

PRODUCER: its investigations, the inquiry encountered

PRODUCER: examples of poor recruitment practice".

PRODUCER: I asked Chloe Meaney, a safeguarding consultant

PRODUCER: at the NSPCC who specialises in HR and

PRODUCER: safer recruitment, to provide some advice on

PRODUCER: what organisations can do to ensure they're

PRODUCER: putting safer recruitment at the heart of their

PRODUCER: recruitment processes.

CHLOE MEANEY: So what we've learned from there is that all

CHLOE MEANEY: of these areas of safe recruitment are

CHLOE MEANEY: vital to keeping children safe, and we have

CHLOE MEANEY: to remain vigilant and maintain a continual

CHLOE MEANEY: learning approach to all the elements that

CHLOE MEANEY: make for a good, safer recruitment practice.

CHLOE MEANEY: To help us understand what safer recruitment

CHLOE MEANEY: looks like, it's really helpful to break it

CHLOE MEANEY: down into key areas.

CHLOE MEANEY: So we have the planning, understanding

CHLOE MEANEY: the roles as well as a really

CHLOE MEANEY: well-thought-out selection and assessment

CHLOE MEANEY: process; robust vetting; and then all

CHLOE MEANEY: the elements that are required to

CHLOE MEANEY: continually assess suitability, such as

CHLOE MEANEY: induction, trial or probation periods,

CHLOE MEANEY: regular check-ins and a really clear policy

CHLOE MEANEY: on expected conduct and behaviour and how to

CHLOE MEANEY: manage any safeguarding concerns.

CHLOE MEANEY: I would say a really good place to start for

CHLOE MEANEY: organisations and individuals who have

CHLOE MEANEY: control of these types of policies is to

CHLOE MEANEY: really look at those, look at your

CHLOE MEANEY: recruitment, selection and vetting policy

CHLOE MEANEY: and process as it currently is, and does it

CHLOE MEANEY: include safer recruitment steps?

CHLOE MEANEY: You know, what does that look like?

CHLOE MEANEY: Is it legally compliant? Has it been

CHLOE MEANEY: reviewed with a safeguarding mindset, for

CHLOE MEANEY: example? That's really the key to this.

CHLOE MEANEY: And, you know, going beyond compliance, does

CHLOE MEANEY: it support a positive safeguarding culture?

CHLOE MEANEY: And these are all questions we can explore

CHLOE MEANEY: when reviewing how we are practising safe

CHLOE MEANEY: recruitment. So it does go far beyond just

CHLOE MEANEY: the the criminal record check and the

CHLOE MEANEY: safeguarding messages that we're so used to

CHLOE MEANEY: talking about.

PRODUCER: Are there any resources out that professionals

PRODUCER: should make use of when reviewing their safer

PRODUCER: recruitment processes?

CHLOE MEANEY: There's so much out there. I mean, a lot of

CHLOE MEANEY: this is in statutory guidance, you know,

CHLOE MEANEY: Working together to safeguard children.

CHLOE MEANEY: And then there's lots of sector-driven

CHLOE MEANEY: guidance as well that really outlines the

CHLOE MEANEY: basic...

CHLOE MEANEY: Getting the basics right. And getting the

CHLOE MEANEY: basics right is fundamental to a really

CHLOE MEANEY: robust, safer recruitment process.

CHLOE MEANEY: But what we also have learned from

CHLOE MEANEY: the inquiry is what

CHLOE MEANEY: we can do beyond the basics.

CHLOE MEANEY: And those are things like incorporating

CHLOE MEANEY: value-based recruitment and value-based

CHLOE MEANEY: interviewing is an example of that.

CHLOE MEANEY: It's a framework that helps us to ask

CHLOE MEANEY: questions around a person's motivation and

CHLOE MEANEY: attitude in relation to working with

CHLOE MEANEY: children, as well as their understanding of

CHLOE MEANEY: safe practice and professional boundaries.

CHLOE MEANEY: And it's only when we start asking those

CHLOE MEANEY: richer questions from individuals that we

CHLOE MEANEY: can really understand more about them.

CHLOE MEANEY: It always has to be relevant to the role.

CHLOE MEANEY: So I come back to understanding the role and

CHLOE MEANEY: mapping your selection criteria and

CHLOE MEANEY: assessment against the role.

CHLOE MEANEY: So, to make sure that those are the

CHLOE MEANEY: questions that you're asking at selection

CHLOE MEANEY: stage are relevant, but that they give you

CHLOE MEANEY: the opportunity to learn more about

CHLOE MEANEY: individuals and make that really informed

CHLOE MEANEY: decision about their suitability

CHLOE MEANEY: in working with children and young people.

PRODUCER: And if you'd like to learn more, we've put some

PRODUCER: links to different NSPCC safer recruitment

PRODUCER: resources in the podcast show notes.

PRODUCER: As part of its proposals around regulation of

PRODUCER: the care sector, IICSA recommends that the UK

PRODUCER: government introduces arrangements for the

PRODUCER: registration of care staff working in children's

PRODUCER: homes, recommendation seven in the final report.

PRODUCER: Staff in children's homes are already required

PRODUCER: to have a DBS check, but registration would

PRODUCER: enhance the accountability of staff and ensure

PRODUCER: they're receiving the necessary training for the

PRODUCER: role. The IICSA recommendation says that

PRODUCER: registration should be with an independent body

PRODUCER: that sets and maintains standards of training,

PRODUCER: conduct and continuing professional development.

PRODUCER: This body should also have the power to enforce

PRODUCER: these through fitness to practice procedures.

PRODUCER: The registration of care staff in children's

PRODUCER: homes is already in place in Scotland, Northern

PRODUCER: Ireland and Wales.

PRODUCER: To find out more about how this kind of

PRODUCER: registration works in practice, I spoke to David

PRODUCER: Pritchard. David is the director of regulation

PRODUCER: at Social Care Wales, which is the regulator of

PRODUCER: the social care workforce in Wales.

DAVID PRITCHARD: This recommendation is around the

DAVID PRITCHARD: regulation of those who work in

DAVID PRITCHARD: children's homes, and it's about whether

DAVID PRITCHARD: we think about those people who do that

DAVID PRITCHARD: work and think they should be registered

DAVID PRITCHARD: in the same way perhaps that nurses,

DAVID PRITCHARD: that doctors, that a whole range of other

DAVID PRITCHARD: professionals are.

DAVID PRITCHARD: It's not really within my gift to talk

DAVID PRITCHARD: about what the situation is in England,

DAVID PRITCHARD: but I can give you a little bit of our

DAVID PRITCHARD: experience in Wales where we've been

DAVID PRITCHARD: registering people who work in children's

DAVID PRITCHARD: homes for many years.

DAVID PRITCHARD: We have around 3500

DAVID PRITCHARD: people, working in that sector, and

DAVID PRITCHARD: they're all registered with us — that is

DAVID PRITCHARD: Social Care Wales — and what that means

DAVID PRITCHARD: is that when they apply to be on the

DAVID PRITCHARD: register, we do a check on who they are

DAVID PRITCHARD: and their background.

DAVID PRITCHARD: And that gives us a sense of whether they

DAVID PRITCHARD: are appropriate, and if they're not,

DAVID PRITCHARD: if they've got particular histories, we

DAVID PRITCHARD: will not allow them to work in the

DAVID PRITCHARD: sector, and that means they can't get a

DAVID PRITCHARD: job doing that work.

DAVID PRITCHARD: When they become registered, they're

DAVID PRITCHARD: subject to a code of professional

DAVID PRITCHARD: practice that sets out what they have to

DAVID PRITCHARD: do and how they do their job.

DAVID PRITCHARD: It's not about the specific tasks, it's

DAVID PRITCHARD: more about the values and the approach

DAVID PRITCHARD: that they take. If they fall foul of

DAVID PRITCHARD: that, then we have the opportunity to

DAVID PRITCHARD: investigate, and, if necessary,

DAVID PRITCHARD: to take action against that individual.

DAVID PRITCHARD: We can give them warnings.

DAVID PRITCHARD: We can recommend they take action to

DAVID PRITCHARD: learn particular things.

DAVID PRITCHARD: Or, at the extreme,

DAVID PRITCHARD: we can remove their right to work in the

DAVID PRITCHARD: sector. And that's a really powerful

DAVID PRITCHARD: contribution to public protection, we

DAVID PRITCHARD: believe. It really makes a difference to

DAVID PRITCHARD: the public's confidence in the children's

DAVID PRITCHARD: residential sector, but it also protects

DAVID PRITCHARD: the status and view

DAVID PRITCHARD: of the workforce itself, because they

DAVID PRITCHARD: know that they are part of a skilled,

DAVID PRITCHARD: competent and suitably qualified

DAVID PRITCHARD: group of individuals.

DAVID PRITCHARD: But I would say that registration isn't

DAVID PRITCHARD: just about public protection, although

DAVID PRITCHARD: that is clearly the first and foremost.

DAVID PRITCHARD: It also allows us to set standards.

DAVID PRITCHARD: It gives us huge amounts of data about

DAVID PRITCHARD: those who are working in our sector, and

DAVID PRITCHARD: it gives us a way of offering them

DAVID PRITCHARD: support and to communicate with them

DAVID PRITCHARD: about things that are important.

DAVID PRITCHARD: So, for example, during Covid, we

DAVID PRITCHARD: were able to give those people really

DAVID PRITCHARD: clear and important messages

DAVID PRITCHARD: about their practice during what was

DAVID PRITCHARD: clearly one of the most challenging

DAVID PRITCHARD: periods of our lifetimes.

DAVID PRITCHARD: It also allows us to learn information

DAVID PRITCHARD: about what's going on in the sector,

DAVID PRITCHARD: about the referrals we're getting and

DAVID PRITCHARD: areas, perhaps, of poor practice that we

DAVID PRITCHARD: can feed back into the sector to help

DAVID PRITCHARD: them improve practice and avoid making

DAVID PRITCHARD: some of those mistakes.

DAVID PRITCHARD: So we believe registration is

DAVID PRITCHARD: fundamentally about public protection,

DAVID PRITCHARD: but it also gives us a wider suite

DAVID PRITCHARD: of opportunities to improve practice

DAVID PRITCHARD: and improve the safeguarding of children

DAVID PRITCHARD: in children's residential sector.

PRODUCER: So, the registration of care staff can lead to

PRODUCER: an improvement in the quality of service

PRODUCER: provision as well as child protection.

PRODUCER: What other steps are Social Care Wales taking in

PRODUCER: light of the IICSA findings?

DAVID PRITCHARD: So I think the IICSA report really has

DAVID PRITCHARD: set a set of questions for all

DAVID PRITCHARD: of us working in social care about what

DAVID PRITCHARD: we do and how we work with other

DAVID PRITCHARD: agencies. And I think for us in Social

DAVID PRITCHARD: Care Wales, that has strengthened

DAVID PRITCHARD: our work with a range of other

DAVID PRITCHARD: organisations that I think is really

DAVID PRITCHARD: important. So, for example, around

DAVID PRITCHARD: safeguarding, we have put together

DAVID PRITCHARD: training for all those who

DAVID PRITCHARD: work in our sector, that they can get the

DAVID PRITCHARD: basics of what safeguarding requires.

DAVID PRITCHARD: And we work very closely with

DAVID PRITCHARD: the regional safeguarding boards that

DAVID PRITCHARD: have been established in Wales and the

DAVID PRITCHARD: National Independent Safeguarding Board

DAVID PRITCHARD: itself, to really assess what more

DAVID PRITCHARD: we can do to promote safeguarding

DAVID PRITCHARD: across the sector.

DAVID PRITCHARD: And, you know, generally children's

DAVID PRITCHARD: services are clearly under major pressure

DAVID PRITCHARD: across the UK and that's no difference in

DAVID PRITCHARD: Wales. But we've been very supportive of

DAVID PRITCHARD: working with the Welsh Government about a

DAVID PRITCHARD: range of initiatives to understand what

DAVID PRITCHARD: the issues are but also to put in place

DAVID PRITCHARD: the kind of solutions that might make a

DAVID PRITCHARD: difference. But what IICSA has done is

DAVID PRITCHARD: really shone a light on the sector and

DAVID PRITCHARD: where we can do more to help improve the

DAVID PRITCHARD: safeguarding of our children.

PRODUCER: In addition to recommendations that aim to

PRODUCER: create a safer environment for children in care,

PRODUCER: the IICSA final report also includes proposals

PRODUCER: to empower children in care to speak out about

PRODUCER: abuse and, crucially, have their voices listened

PRODUCER: to and respected.

PRODUCER: Reform to the legal recourse that children

PRODUCER: living in care have access to is one area of

PRODUCER: consideration.

PRODUCER: As mentioned earlier, children living in care

PRODUCER: may feel that they have little control or say

PRODUCER: over aspects of their life.

PRODUCER: This extends to their legal position.

PRODUCER: Decisions are made on their behalf by local

PRODUCER: authorities, who act as their corporate parent

PRODUCER: and arrange their care plan, and there are

PRODUCER: limited routes by which children and young

PRODUCER: people in care can express their views about

PRODUCER: their circumstances.

PRODUCER: Here's Patricia Cannon with more information.

PATRICIA CANNON: When a child is in care they could make a

PATRICIA CANNON: formal complaint about their care.

PATRICIA CANNON: There is a mechanism to do that.

PATRICIA CANNON: For example, they can — if they had the

PATRICIA CANNON: resources and the skills to do so — they

PATRICIA CANNON: could make a complaint to the Children's

PATRICIA CANNON: Commissioner or to a local government

PATRICIA CANNON: ombudsman.

PATRICIA CANNON: But it doesn't change the position of the

PATRICIA CANNON: children in care.

PATRICIA CANNON: There are limited routes by which

PATRICIA CANNON: children in care can try and

PATRICIA CANNON: raise concern about the care that they

PATRICIA CANNON: are given. They should have access to

PATRICIA CANNON: advocacy provision to make

PATRICIA CANNON: representations that they wish to make.

PATRICIA CANNON: It would be in limited circumstances,

PATRICIA CANNON: really, that children would probably feel

PATRICIA CANNON: empowered to raise these sorts of

PATRICIA CANNON: concerns because once they're in care,

PATRICIA CANNON: their network is more limited and

PATRICIA CANNON: they rely on those around them to be able

PATRICIA CANNON: to help them to raise concerns.

PATRICIA CANNON: And that's part of what this report had

PATRICIA CANNON: to address was children voicing concerns

PATRICIA CANNON: and not being listened to or feeling that

PATRICIA CANNON: they weren't listened to.

PATRICIA CANNON: At present children can bring

PATRICIA CANNON: applications under the Human Rights Act

PATRICIA CANNON: 1989.

PATRICIA CANNON: They would normally be represented by an

PATRICIA CANNON: adult acting as their litigation friend,

PATRICIA CANNON: and can conduct proceedings on their

PATRICIA CANNON: behalf. They can get legal aid for those

PATRICIA CANNON: sorts of applications.

PATRICIA CANNON: They can ask for a decision by a local

PATRICIA CANNON: authority to be judicially reviewed.

PATRICIA CANNON: But that's a legal mechanism

PATRICIA CANNON: that is very little used by children.

PATRICIA CANNON: And the child would need to show that the

PATRICIA CANNON: local authority had acted in a way that

PATRICIA CANNON: was illegal or irrational or procedurally

PATRICIA CANNON: improper. These are really high

PATRICIA CANNON: thresholds, so it's a difficult legal

PATRICIA CANNON: route for a child to take.

PATRICIA CANNON: Those proceedings don't put the welfare

PATRICIA CANNON: of a child as paramount importance,

PATRICIA CANNON: which is of paramount importance in

PATRICIA CANNON: Children Act proceedings, where, for

PATRICIA CANNON: example, the parents are involved.

PATRICIA CANNON: At the moment, children also have the

PATRICIA CANNON: recourse of reporting matters to the

PATRICIA CANNON: police again. This report reveals that

PATRICIA CANNON: that's difficult for them to do.

PATRICIA CANNON: They're vulnerable. There are issues with

PATRICIA CANNON: them being scared of not being believed

PATRICIA CANNON: or, in fact, not being believed.

PATRICIA CANNON: They could also seek compensation under

PATRICIA CANNON: the criminal injuries compensation claim

PATRICIA CANNON: but, again, that there would be might

PATRICIA CANNON: have been police involvement.

PATRICIA CANNON: It's quite a difficult one for a child to

PATRICIA CANNON: raise awareness about the concerns that

PATRICIA CANNON: they have.

PRODUCER: Recommendation six of the IICSA final report

PRODUCER: proposes an amendment to the Children Act 1989

PRODUCER: that will improve children's access to legal

PRODUCER: recourse. Patricia, please can you explain how

PRODUCER: this amendment will work if implemented?

PATRICIA CANNON: Recommendation six is,

PATRICIA CANNON: again, an empowerment option for a child

PATRICIA CANNON: because they can make an application to

PATRICIA CANNON: the court. The application can be brought

PATRICIA CANNON: by the child. This recommendation

PATRICIA CANNON: would allow the court to consider an

PATRICIA CANNON: application by a child where there is

PATRICIA CANNON: reasonable cause to believe that a child

PATRICIA CANNON: who is in the care of a local authority

PATRICIA CANNON: is experiencing, or is at risk of

PATRICIA CANNON: experiencing, significant harm.

PATRICIA CANNON: And what the provision would do

PATRICIA CANNON: would be to prohibit a local authority

PATRICIA CANNON: from taking an act or a proposed act

PATRICIA CANNON: which it would otherwise be entitled

PATRICIA CANNON: to take in exercising its parental

PATRICIA CANNON: responsibility for the child.

PATRICIA CANNON: And the court could give directions.

PATRICIA CANNON: And the change would ensure that

PATRICIA CANNON: vulnerable children at risk of harm have

PATRICIA CANNON: recourse to court about a range of

PATRICIA CANNON: aspects about their care.

PATRICIA CANNON: And it would mean that in raising those

PATRICIA CANNON: concerns, their welfare is the court's

PATRICIA CANNON: paramount consideration, as it is,

PATRICIA CANNON: when local authorities bring care

PATRICIA CANNON: proceedings or where parents go before

PATRICIA CANNON: the court in relation to private law

PATRICIA CANNON: applications, which are disputes between

PATRICIA CANNON: parents.

PRODUCER: In addition, IICSA emphasises that the amendment

PRODUCER: should be accompanied by the introduction of

PRODUCER: procedural measures to ensure court applications

PRODUCER: are accessible to children in care.

PRODUCER: There should also be provision for legal aid to

PRODUCER: provide advice and assist with representation.

PRODUCER: Patricia raised the important point that IICSA

PRODUCER: found that some children who voiced concerns

PRODUCER: around abuse did not feel listened to, or were

PRODUCER: worried that their concerns weren't being

PRODUCER: believed. One of the ways the report proposes

PRODUCER: to address this is through recommendation 13,

PRODUCER: the introduction of mandatory reporting.

PRODUCER: This recommendation would make it a legal

PRODUCER: requirement for certain individuals to report

PRODUCER: child sexual abuse when they witness abuse

PRODUCER: happening or when they receive a disclosure of

PRODUCER: abuse. These individuals will be known as

PRODUCER: mandated reporters.

PRODUCER: This puts the onus of reporting abuse onto the

PRODUCER: caregiver, meaning there would be substantively

PRODUCER: more support for the child to come forward and

PRODUCER: disclose abuse when it is happening.

PRODUCER: Since the publication of the IICSA final report,

PRODUCER: the government has held two consultations into

PRODUCER: mandatory reporting and what it might look like

PRODUCER: in practice, and the NSPCC submitted responses

PRODUCER: to both of those consultations.

PRODUCER: I spoke to Matt Forde, Partnerships and

PRODUCER: Development Director at the NSPCC, about the

PRODUCER: recommendation as proposed by IICSA.

MATT FORDE: The inquiry reached its position and made its

MATT FORDE: recommendation on mandatory reporting because

MATT FORDE: of the terrible evidence that was found of

MATT FORDE: institutions and individuals failing to act,

MATT FORDE: even when they were aware or suspected

MATT FORDE: that children were being abused.

MATT FORDE: And it's just completely unacceptable for

MATT FORDE: adults, particularly professionals in

MATT FORDE: positions of trust, to turn a blind eye

MATT FORDE: to abuse. They have an absolute responsibility

MATT FORDE: to protect children and young people. Reporting

MATT FORDE: abuse is essential and we would always

MATT FORDE: say that people should speak up if they have

MATT FORDE: any doubt or concern about a child, including

MATT FORDE: through our Helpline.

MATT FORDE: So, you know, we're absolutely clear about

MATT FORDE: that. But we don't think that mandatory

MATT FORDE: reporting is a magic bullet that will solve

MATT FORDE: the many problems that were uncovered by the

MATT FORDE: independent inquiry.

MATT FORDE: My caution is that, you know, we do know

MATT FORDE: from experience in other countries that there

MATT FORDE: are issues we need to consider here.

MATT FORDE: It's not necessarily the case

MATT FORDE: that introducing mandatory reporting would

MATT FORDE: improve outcomes for children, not least

MATT FORDE: because it could have unintended impacts on

MATT FORDE: the way that system works by shifting

MATT FORDE: resources to investigation without

MATT FORDE: necessarily improving outcomes for children

MATT FORDE: through care and therapeutic services.

MATT FORDE: So, I mean, it is essential that reporting

MATT FORDE: happens when abuse is suspected, that's how

MATT FORDE: you uncover it, but it's not the end in

MATT FORDE: itself. So, if it is introduced,

MATT FORDE: we would be saying that it has to be

MATT FORDE: introduced in a way that's part of a much

MATT FORDE: wider child-centred response which results in

MATT FORDE: children getting the right support when abuse

MATT FORDE: is uncovered so that they can recover.

MATT FORDE: If we are going to go this route, there have

MATT FORDE: to be resources provided to respond

MATT FORDE: to potentially higher demands for parts

MATT FORDE: of the system that are responding to levels of

MATT FORDE: disclosures and reports, because otherwise we

MATT FORDE: would be an unacceptable situation where lack

MATT FORDE: of resources would be preventing children who

MATT FORDE: are being abused being identified by the

MATT FORDE: authorities. You know, any approach to

MATT FORDE: mandatory reporting that results from the

MATT FORDE: current consultation has to be based on a

MATT FORDE: clear understanding that everyone has a role

MATT FORDE: and what their role is in protecting children.

MATT FORDE: And if groups of people within

MATT FORDE: services — people in positions of trust and so

MATT FORDE: on — become mandated reporters, they'd

MATT FORDE: have to be absolutely clear about the responsibilities

MATT FORDE: and also be equipped with the knowledge and

MATT FORDE: understanding to be able to see the potential

MATT FORDE: signs and indicators of abuse and to be clear

MATT FORDE: about what it is they do if they suspect

MATT FORDE: abuse. And training for people who would be

MATT FORDE: in that position of being mandated reporters

MATT FORDE: would be absolutely essential, and that needs

MATT FORDE: to be resourced.

MATT FORDE: And I think, lastly, mandatory reporting

MATT FORDE: needs to be seen in a context where

MATT FORDE: institutions are held accountable for

MATT FORDE: how they protect children.

MATT FORDE: And, you know, institutions ultimately are

MATT FORDE: responsible for the people who work for them

MATT FORDE: and for their own organisational record in

MATT FORDE: terms of protecting children.

MATT FORDE: None of what I've talked about

MATT FORDE: should result in children being denied

MATT FORDE: opportunities to engage in

MATT FORDE: safe places to get support.

MATT FORDE: They need to be able to go to safe spaces

MATT FORDE: without fear of always be reported to the

MATT FORDE: authorities.

MATT FORDE: So, we would think it'd be really important

MATT FORDE: to identify where any system that

MATT FORDE: allows children to have that sort of safe

MATT FORDE: space, for example, when they're engaged in

MATT FORDE: therapeutic work to help recover or

MATT FORDE: contacting Childline.

PRODUCER: At the time of recording, a mandatory reporting

PRODUCER: duty is set to be incorporated into the Criminal

PRODUCER: Justice Bill, which is currently making its way

PRODUCER: through Parliament.

PRODUCER: And, before bringing this podcast episode to a

PRODUCER: close, it's also important to mention that, in

PRODUCER: February 2023, the Department for Education

PRODUCER: published its plans to reform children's social

PRODUCER: care in England.

PRODUCER: This included plans to work with the sector to

PRODUCER: develop a national framework for children's

PRODUCER: social care.

PRODUCER: If you want to find out more, we've put a link

PRODUCER: to our CASPAR briefing summarising the proposals

PRODUCER: in the podcast show notes, and you'll also be

PRODUCER: able to find links to two podcast episodes we

PRODUCER: produced on the topic as well.

PRODUCER: Thanks to Patricia Cannon, Matt Forde, Chloe

PRODUCER: Meaney, David Pritchard and Claire Sands.

PRODUCER: In the next episode of Recommendations for

PRODUCER: Change, we'll be looking at online safety.

PRODUCER: How big is the scale of the online abuse

PRODUCER: problem, and how do the IICSA recommendations

PRODUCER: seek to tackle the issue?

PRODUCER: If you've been affected by any of the issues

PRODUCER: raised in this podcast, you can reach out to the

PRODUCER: NSPCC Helpline for support.

PRODUCER: Call 0808 800 5000

PRODUCER: or email help@nspcc.org.uk.

PRODUCER: This podcast series was produced in Autumn 2023.

PRODUCER: All information was correct at the time of

PRODUCER: recording, but the world of child protection is

PRODUCER: ever changing.

PRODUCER: To stay up to date, visit the NSPCC Learning

PRODUCER: website at nspcc.org.uk/learning.