PRODUCER: Please note this podcast contains mention of

PRODUCER: child sexual abuse.

PRODUCER: In 2015, the Independent Inquiry into Child

PRODUCER: Sexual Abuse was set up to investigate where

PRODUCER: institutions failed to protect children in their

PRODUCER: care.

PRODUCER: The inquiry's final report, published in October

PRODUCER: 2022, laid out a set of powerful recommendations

PRODUCER: to address past failings and protect future

PRODUCER: generations of children from abuse.

PRODUCER: Recommendations for Change is a five part

PRODUCER: podcast series from NSPCC Learning, examining

PRODUCER: why these recommendations are needed, how

PRODUCER: they'll work if implemented, and what impact

PRODUCER: they will have on the prevention of child sexual

PRODUCER: abuse.

PRODUCER: Episode four: online safety.

PRODUCER: Being online is an integral part of children and

PRODUCER: young people's lives, but it can expose them to

PRODUCER: risks, including sexual abuse.

PRODUCER: The past five years has seen a proliferation in

PRODUCER: child sexual abuse (CSA) material online

PRODUCER: data from the Internet Watch Foundation, the UK

PRODUCER: hotline for reporting and removing online child

PRODUCER: sexual abuse material, shows that the number of

PRODUCER: reports of web pages assessed as containing CSA

PRODUCER: increased from 78,000 in 2017

PRODUCER: to 255,000 in

PRODUCER: 2022.

PRODUCER: IICSA published an investigation report into the

PRODUCER: growing problem of online-facilitated CSA

PRODUCER: in March 2020.

PRODUCER: It investigated the response of law enforcement,

PRODUCER: industry and government to three types of

PRODUCER: offending: indecent images of children offences,

PRODUCER: the grooming of a child, and live streaming of

PRODUCER: child sexual abuse.

PRODUCER: It found that whilst the last five years have

PRODUCER: seen improvements in the responses to these

PRODUCER: issues, there was no evidence to suggest a

PRODUCER: decrease in online child sexual abuse offences

PRODUCER: and, quote, "law enforcement is struggling

PRODUCER: to keep pace".

PRODUCER: A step forward was made in October 2023

PRODUCER: with the passing of the Online Safety Act, which

PRODUCER: gives online service providers new legal

PRODUCER: responsibilities to keep children safe on their

PRODUCER: platforms. However, there is still much work

PRODUCER: that needs to be done in order to eradicate

PRODUCER: child sexual abuse online.

PRODUCER: In this episode, we will be exploring the scale

PRODUCER: of the online abuse problem and how the

PRODUCER: recommendations seek to tackle the issue.

PRODUCER: Susie Hargreaves is the Chief Executive of the

PRODUCER: Internet Watch Foundation.

PRODUCER: We spoke to Susie about the importance of

PRODUCER: implementing strong online protections for

PRODUCER: children in October 2023, a couple

PRODUCER: of weeks before the Online Safety Act was signed

PRODUCER: into law.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: The internet is a really positive space,

SUSIE HARGREAVES: and of course, children get so much out

SUSIE HARGREAVES: of use of the internet, their

SUSIE HARGREAVES: entertainment, their social networking,

SUSIE HARGREAVES: their education. But unfortunately it

SUSIE HARGREAVES: has a really dark side as well, which

SUSIE HARGREAVES: is that children are very easily

SUSIE HARGREAVES: exploited on the internet, and, without

SUSIE HARGREAVES: protections being put in place, there

SUSIE HARGREAVES: will always be people who will try and

SUSIE HARGREAVES: take advantage of the most vulnerable

SUSIE HARGREAVES: people in society.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: So, we would always say, you know, it's

SUSIE HARGREAVES: not that technology is bad, it's not

SUSIE HARGREAVES: that the internet is bad, but the

SUSIE HARGREAVES: reality is that there is a lot of very,

SUSIE HARGREAVES: very bad stuff on the internet, and we

SUSIE HARGREAVES: need to do everything we can to keep our

SUSIE HARGREAVES: children safe.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: Now, the IWF, the area I work with, we

SUSIE HARGREAVES: deal with illegal content, so we're

SUSIE HARGREAVES: dealing with the very worst of the

SUSIE HARGREAVES: content. So this is illegal content.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: It's illegal for everybody.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: It's illegal to make, to share,

SUSIE HARGREAVES: to distribute and to

SUSIE HARGREAVES: produce. So, you know, basically we need

SUSIE HARGREAVES: to make sure that nobody has access to

SUSIE HARGREAVES: this content. But of course, looking at

SUSIE HARGREAVES: this content is not the worst thing.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: The worst thing is that actually

SUSIE HARGREAVES: children are sexually abused in the

SUSIE HARGREAVES: making of this content. And in fact,

SUSIE HARGREAVES: every single time somebody looks at that

SUSIE HARGREAVES: content, that child is revictimised,

SUSIE HARGREAVES: their abuse reoccurs,

SUSIE HARGREAVES: and it's not a victimless crime.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: So what we need to do is do everything

SUSIE HARGREAVES: we can to put safety protections around

SUSIE HARGREAVES: children online so that this really

SUSIE HARGREAVES: hideous, heinous crime doesn't happen

SUSIE HARGREAVES: because children carry it with them for

SUSIE HARGREAVES: the rest of their lives.

PRODUCER: What does the IICSA final report say about the

PRODUCER: challenge presented by online-facilitated child

PRODUCER: sexual abuse?

SUSIE HARGREAVES: Well, the IICSA final report made a

SUSIE HARGREAVES: number of recommendations.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: Obviously only a few of them were

SUSIE HARGREAVES: related to online child sexual abuse.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: We were privileged enough to be

SUSIE HARGREAVES: co-participants in the IICSA inquiry on

SUSIE HARGREAVES: the online space, and it was very clear

SUSIE HARGREAVES: that we needed to put some specific

SUSIE HARGREAVES: protections in place for children.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: Of course, this was aligned to what was

SUSIE HARGREAVES: happening at that time. The Online

SUSIE HARGREAVES: Safety Bill was going through Parliament

SUSIE HARGREAVES: at the time, and actually IICSA was

SUSIE HARGREAVES: taking that into account.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: So specifically on the online space, it

SUSIE HARGREAVES: made a number of recommendations.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: The first, which totally relates to our

SUSIE HARGREAVES: area of work, was the need to screen

SUSIE HARGREAVES: for child sexual abuse.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: So instead of sort of just relying on

SUSIE HARGREAVES: people might do it, companies might do

SUSIE HARGREAVES: it. There would then be, a commitment

SUSIE HARGREAVES: from companies to have to

SUSIE HARGREAVES: pre-screen/screen to ensure that child

SUSIE HARGREAVES: sexual abuse did not go onto their

SUSIE HARGREAVES: platforms using a range of technologies

SUSIE HARGREAVES: to enable them to do that.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: And that was really important for us.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: The second was the age verification

SUSIE HARGREAVES: side. So whilst the IWF is not

SUSIE HARGREAVES: an organisation that deals with

SUSIE HARGREAVES: inappropriate content that children are

SUSIE HARGREAVES: accessing, we are also, co-directors

SUSIE HARGREAVES: of the UK's Safer Internet Centre, so

SUSIE HARGREAVES: obviously we care very, very much about

SUSIE HARGREAVES: children's access to that material.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: So we want to ensure that children do

SUSIE HARGREAVES: not have access to pornography.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: We also want to ensure that children who

SUSIE HARGREAVES: are under 13 don't have access

SUSIE HARGREAVES: to social media.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: So we really want to see robust

SUSIE HARGREAVES: age verification and age appropriate

SUSIE HARGREAVES: tools put in place on the online safety

SUSIE HARGREAVES: bill. And the third was the CSE/A, the

SUSIE HARGREAVES: Child Sexual Exploitation and Abuse Code

SUSIE HARGREAVES: of practice, which of course, is, under

SUSIE HARGREAVES: the Online Safety Bill.

PRODUCER: You mentioned the Online Safety Bill, which is

PRODUCER: soon to be given royal assent and will become

PRODUCER: the Online Safety Act.

PRODUCER: How does the Online Safety Act dovetail with the

PRODUCER: final recommendations?

SUSIE HARGREAVES: Now, prior to the, bill going through

SUSIE HARGREAVES: in relation to online child sexual

SUSIE HARGREAVES: abuse, companies worked on a voluntary

SUSIE HARGREAVES: basis. So they were

SUSIE HARGREAVES: obliged kind of morally to

SUSIE HARGREAVES: do what they could to keep their

SUSIE HARGREAVES: platforms clean of child sexual abuse,

SUSIE HARGREAVES: or to do as much as they possibly could

SUSIE HARGREAVES: to ensure that it didn't get loaded onto

SUSIE HARGREAVES: their platforms, but there was no kind

SUSIE HARGREAVES: of transparency or accountability around

SUSIE HARGREAVES: that. Now, what's really important about

SUSIE HARGREAVES: the Online Safety Bill is that will no

SUSIE HARGREAVES: longer be a voluntary thing, but they

SUSIE HARGREAVES: will actually have to legally comply

SUSIE HARGREAVES: with that. So they will have to

SUSIE HARGREAVES: demonstrate, how they are doing

SUSIE HARGREAVES: the best they can to keep their

SUSIE HARGREAVES: platforms as clean as possible.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: And that will be to ensure that there

SUSIE HARGREAVES: are robust online safety tools,

SUSIE HARGREAVES: that there are robust tech solutions.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: So we provide a number

SUSIE HARGREAVES: of tech solutions to companies.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: So when we talk about screening

SUSIE HARGREAVES: platforms, what we're talking about is

SUSIE HARGREAVES: we provide things like a hash list,

SUSIE HARGREAVES: which is a list of digital fingerprints

SUSIE HARGREAVES: of known child sexual abuse images — we

SUSIE HARGREAVES: currently have about 1.2 million of

SUSIE HARGREAVES: these — and companies will deploy

SUSIE HARGREAVES: that across their platform to stop

SUSIE HARGREAVES: anybody uploading a duplicate image.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: If it has a match, it won't go onto the

SUSIE HARGREAVES: platform. So that's really important so

SUSIE HARGREAVES: that that content doesn't get onto the

SUSIE HARGREAVES: platform to begin with.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: We also provide things like a blocking

SUSIE HARGREAVES: list, a URL list, a list of web pages

SUSIE HARGREAVES: that currently contain child sexual

SUSIE HARGREAVES: abuse and haven't been removed from the

SUSIE HARGREAVES: internet yet. They will be obliged to

SUSIE HARGREAVES: make sure that people can't access that

SUSIE HARGREAVES: material.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: It's really important that these

SUSIE HARGREAVES: elements of the IICSA report, which

SUSIE HARGREAVES: raised awareness of the fact that that a

SUSIE HARGREAVES: lot of companies weren't doing that,

SUSIE HARGREAVES: they now will be legally obliged to do

SUSIE HARGREAVES: that. The other thing that's important

SUSIE HARGREAVES: to say in relation to how the Online

SUSIE HARGREAVES: Safety Act, as it will be, in a couple

SUSIE HARGREAVES: of weeks, dovetails with the IICSA final

SUSIE HARGREAVES: report, is an awful lot of the detail

SUSIE HARGREAVES: has yet to be worked through.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: So, whilst we have some fundamental

SUSIE HARGREAVES: principles in place around the Online

SUSIE HARGREAVES: Safety Act, the actual operational side

SUSIE HARGREAVES: is really still to play for.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: So we need to ensure that when the

SUSIE HARGREAVES: consultation comes out, and they'll be

SUSIE HARGREAVES: dealing with illegal material in the

SUSIE HARGREAVES: first instance, which is the area we

SUSIE HARGREAVES: work in, but some of the sort of

SUSIE HARGREAVES: knottier, more difficult questions

SUSIE HARGREAVES: around harmful content and making sure

SUSIE HARGREAVES: that we keep children safe online have

SUSIE HARGREAVES: to be worked through. So it's not a job

SUSIE HARGREAVES: done yet. And that's why it's really

SUSIE HARGREAVES: important to keep the pressure on about

SUSIE HARGREAVES: the IICSA recommendations, because we

SUSIE HARGREAVES: are all, across the child protection

SUSIE HARGREAVES: spectrum, online and offline, we're

SUSIE HARGREAVES: working together to keep people focused

SUSIE HARGREAVES: on these are our recommendation.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: These are the things we want to see.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: And we can't just sit there and be

SUSIE HARGREAVES: complacent and think, well, the Online

SUSIE HARGREAVES: Safety Bill is done and dusted, so

SUSIE HARGREAVES: that's going to cover everything.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: So there's still a lot of work to do.

PRODUCER: And finally, what can professionals working with

PRODUCER: children and young people do to keep them safe

PRODUCER: online?

SUSIE HARGREAVES: Well, one of the things we would always

SUSIE HARGREAVES: say about the ways in which

SUSIE HARGREAVES: professionals working with children and

SUSIE HARGREAVES: young people can help them keep safe

SUSIE HARGREAVES: online is that it's not just a one

SUSIE HARGREAVES: thing is the solution.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: You know, actually you have to take a

SUSIE HARGREAVES: joint approach. So, we work in

SUSIE HARGREAVES: technology. Now technology is part of

SUSIE HARGREAVES: the solution. It's a major part of the

SUSIE HARGREAVES: solution. And the internet companies

SUSIE HARGREAVES: have got a lot more to do to ensure that

SUSIE HARGREAVES: they keep children safe online.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: But that's not the whole picture.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: We also need to have proper legislative

SUSIE HARGREAVES: and law enforcement support.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: Hopefully this will be resolved through

SUSIE HARGREAVES: the Online Safety Bill.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: But also we need a really strong

SUSIE HARGREAVES: education and awareness programme.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: And that's why it's really important

SUSIE HARGREAVES: that a lot of us work together.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: So the IWF, the organisation I lead,

SUSIE HARGREAVES: we are very much dealing with technical

SUSIE HARGREAVES: solutions, but it's really important we

SUSIE HARGREAVES: work with organisations like the NSPCC,

SUSIE HARGREAVES: because we don't deal directly with

SUSIE HARGREAVES: children, we don't have that level of

SUSIE HARGREAVES: expertise, but we can share our

SUSIE HARGREAVES: knowledge between us. And that's really

SUSIE HARGREAVES: important. And a great example of that

SUSIE HARGREAVES: is that we run a project called Report

SUSIE HARGREAVES: Remove together, where we enable young

SUSIE HARGREAVES: people to self-refer nudes of themselves

SUSIE HARGREAVES: for us to get them removed, to stop them

SUSIE HARGREAVES: being criminalised and to get those

SUSIE HARGREAVES: taken off the internet. We deal with the

SUSIE HARGREAVES: kind of technical, how do you take it

SUSIE HARGREAVES: down off the internet, and the NSPCC

SUSIE HARGREAVES: deal with the safeguarding aspect, but

SUSIE HARGREAVES: we join together on some of the

SUSIE HARGREAVES: education and awareness around that.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: So I think what's really important is

SUSIE HARGREAVES: that everybody works together and we

SUSIE HARGREAVES: recognise that there isn't a single

SUSIE HARGREAVES: solution to this.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: But the other thing we really feel

SUSIE HARGREAVES: strongly — and I know this is shared

SUSIE HARGREAVES: across the board — that parents and

SUSIE HARGREAVES: carers, they do have a responsibility to

SUSIE HARGREAVES: make sure they do the best to keep

SUSIE HARGREAVES: children safe online.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: And you can't just bury your head in the

SUSIE HARGREAVES: sand on this. So, in the same ways you

SUSIE HARGREAVES: would on any element of children's

SUSIE HARGREAVES: safety, you need to not

SUSIE HARGREAVES: be scared by the internet.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: There's lots of help out there.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: There's lots of resources.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: There's lots of practical know-how

SUSIE HARGREAVES: points to help you keep yourself safe

SUSIE HARGREAVES: online. And one of the things we've

SUSIE HARGREAVES: discovered through the research we've

SUSIE HARGREAVES: done is that, you know, one meaningful

SUSIE HARGREAVES: conversation can make all the

SUSIE HARGREAVES: difference. So it's really important

SUSIE HARGREAVES: that people talk about that.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: So you have to think about and learn

SUSIE HARGREAVES: about platforms that your children are

SUSIE HARGREAVES: on. You have to talk to them about what

SUSIE HARGREAVES: they're doing. You have to set family

SUSIE HARGREAVES: rules and family guidelines that

SUSIE HARGREAVES: everybody sticks to, and you have to

SUSIE HARGREAVES: take a sensible approach to this.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: But I think being scared of the internet

SUSIE HARGREAVES: is not helpful. Let's just all accept

SUSIE HARGREAVES: the internet is a wonderful thing,

SUSIE HARGREAVES: wonderful. But we have a responsibility

SUSIE HARGREAVES: to tackle that really dangerous, unsafe

SUSIE HARGREAVES: element. And if you've got a six- or

SUSIE HARGREAVES: seven-year-old, they really shouldn't be

SUSIE HARGREAVES: in that bedroom on their own with a

SUSIE HARGREAVES: camera-enabled device and an internet

SUSIE HARGREAVES: connection without supervision.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: So don't think just because they're in

SUSIE HARGREAVES: your house that they're safe.

SUSIE HARGREAVES: You have a responsibility to know what

SUSIE HARGREAVES: they're doing. But don't panic because

SUSIE HARGREAVES: the help is out there as well.

PRODUCER: As Susie said earlier, the Online Safety Act

PRODUCER: introduces legal requirements for companies to

PRODUCER: prevent illegal content from appearing on their

PRODUCER: platforms. This includes content depicting,

PRODUCER: promoting or facilitating child sexual abuse.

PRODUCER: If age inappropriate content, such as

PRODUCER: pornography, is present on a platform, companies

PRODUCER: must also use age verification tools to prevent

PRODUCER: children from accessing this content.

PRODUCER: This can be seen as a fulfilment of IICSA's

PRODUCER: recommendations on online safety.

PRODUCER: Recommendation 12 proposes that providers of

PRODUCER: internet search services and user-to-user

PRODUCER: services pre-screen uploaded content

PRODUCER: for known child sexual abuse material.

PRODUCER: Recommendation 20 proposes that the UK

PRODUCER: government change the law to make sure that

PRODUCER: social media platforms and other companies that

PRODUCER: provide online services introduce better age

PRODUCER: verification measures.

PRODUCER: However, as Susie says, we will have to wait and

PRODUCER: see whether this legislation has the desired

PRODUCER: effect or whether more steps are needed to

PRODUCER: tackle online-facilitated CSA.

PRODUCER: I wanted to find out more about how law

PRODUCER: enforcement responds to online-facilitated child

PRODUCER: sexual abuse, so I spoke to Ian Critchley, the

PRODUCER: National Police Chiefs Council lead for child

PRODUCER: protection.

IAN CRITCHLEY: I genuinely feel this is one of the most

IAN CRITCHLEY: critical areas in society that we are now

IAN CRITCHLEY: now dealing with: the explosion of the

IAN CRITCHLEY: internet. As we know, it's a real positive

IAN CRITCHLEY: with opportunities for us all, and

IAN CRITCHLEY: particularly for young people, but also

IAN CRITCHLEY: brings with it a great threat and challenge

IAN CRITCHLEY: that we must we must address.

IAN CRITCHLEY: And it's that area that I feel that we have

IAN CRITCHLEY: a great responsibility for, both law

IAN CRITCHLEY: enforcement and our partners, parents and

IAN CRITCHLEY: carers — and I'm a parent of three children

IAN CRITCHLEY: myself — but also, most importantly, the

IAN CRITCHLEY: industry and the companies who should take

IAN CRITCHLEY: the greatest responsibility.

IAN CRITCHLEY: The accessibility now to young people,

IAN CRITCHLEY: 12- to 15-year-olds.

IAN CRITCHLEY: And there's a doubling of, since 2011,

IAN CRITCHLEY: of access to smartphones.

IAN CRITCHLEY: So we will be in the 90% now of 12- to

IAN CRITCHLEY: 15-year-olds, but of 8- to 11-year-olds;

IAN CRITCHLEY: we're over 20% now of 8- to 11-year-olds

IAN CRITCHLEY: who have a social media account.

IAN CRITCHLEY: So we must ensure that we protect young

IAN CRITCHLEY: people from harm.

IAN CRITCHLEY: What does that harm look like?

IAN CRITCHLEY: It is of the highest level, from adults

IAN CRITCHLEY: who seek to groom exploit young children

IAN CRITCHLEY: by meeting with them, having facilitated

IAN CRITCHLEY: meetings online, seek to blackmail

IAN CRITCHLEY: them to share further images of themselves.

IAN CRITCHLEY: And we see some of the worst offending that

IAN CRITCHLEY: we know has huge, huge impact for the rest

IAN CRITCHLEY: of children's lives. And clearly, myself,

IAN CRITCHLEY: my colleagues, NCA, other law enforcement,

IAN CRITCHLEY: both in the UK and around the country, are

IAN CRITCHLEY: working tirelessly to identify these

IAN CRITCHLEY: offenders.

IAN CRITCHLEY: We're also seeing a rise in relation to

IAN CRITCHLEY: peer-on-peer offending.

IAN CRITCHLEY: We saw from the Everyone's Invited

IAN CRITCHLEY: campaign, which called out offending

IAN CRITCHLEY: within the school, particularly within the

IAN CRITCHLEY: school environment, of high harm offences

IAN CRITCHLEY: that were being committed between peers

IAN CRITCHLEY: of which there is absolutely criminal

IAN CRITCHLEY: justice route for high harm offending.

IAN CRITCHLEY: But what we also saw was what we say is a

IAN CRITCHLEY: normalisation of behaviour in

IAN CRITCHLEY: this area. So what do I mean by that?

IAN CRITCHLEY: Young people taking imagery of themselves,

IAN CRITCHLEY: self-generated imagery, sharing it with

IAN CRITCHLEY: their partners, consensual partners.

IAN CRITCHLEY: And of course, they might be the partners

IAN CRITCHLEY: at the time but clearly once an image is shared,

IAN CRITCHLEY: it can be lost and therefore used across

IAN CRITCHLEY: the internet in many different ways.

IAN CRITCHLEY: We don't want to criminalise young people

IAN CRITCHLEY: in this area. It's important that we're

IAN CRITCHLEY: able to safeguard and protect them

IAN CRITCHLEY: as well.

IAN CRITCHLEY: And this is just where we are now, clearly,

IAN CRITCHLEY: on top of that, we have a growing

IAN CRITCHLEY: development of artificial intelligence,

IAN CRITCHLEY: children going into what we call the

IAN CRITCHLEY: metaverse as well, young children going

IAN CRITCHLEY: into, you know, social media, gaming,

IAN CRITCHLEY: and not knowing who they are dealing with

IAN CRITCHLEY: or confronting.

IAN CRITCHLEY: So, really important that we take our

IAN CRITCHLEY: responsibilities as law enforcement and

IAN CRITCHLEY: partners, really important as parents and

IAN CRITCHLEY: carers that we have those challenging

IAN CRITCHLEY: conversations — I know how difficult they

IAN CRITCHLEY: are, but we have them — and give trust and

IAN CRITCHLEY: confidence to the young people to engage.

IAN CRITCHLEY: But most importantly, that industry

IAN CRITCHLEY: steps up to the mark, much more so than

IAN CRITCHLEY: it's doing now. And I really welcome the

IAN CRITCHLEY: Online Safety Bill and the impact of that

IAN CRITCHLEY: should have for you.

PRODUCER: For you, do the IICSA recommendations on online

PRODUCER: safety go far enough?

IAN CRITCHLEY: I think IICSA really identified

IAN CRITCHLEY: the critical issues here for us all,

IAN CRITCHLEY: working together, that young people are

IAN CRITCHLEY: facing now in an ever changing society.

IAN CRITCHLEY: So I think it fulfilled its role in making

IAN CRITCHLEY: the recommendations and dovetailing across

IAN CRITCHLEY: into the Online Safety Bill, without

IAN CRITCHLEY: seeking to try and duplicate or replicate

IAN CRITCHLEY: what needs to be coming in law.

IAN CRITCHLEY: And it's that aspect that is absolutely

IAN CRITCHLEY: crucial to make sure that companies are

IAN CRITCHLEY: able to prevent, first of all, the loading

IAN CRITCHLEY: of child abuse material onto their

IAN CRITCHLEY: platforms that they make millions and

IAN CRITCHLEY: billions of pounds from.

IAN CRITCHLEY: We're not talking just about, you know,

IAN CRITCHLEY: we're not talking about dark web here.

IAN CRITCHLEY: We are talking three clicks.

IAN CRITCHLEY: Three clicks — which again was highlighted

IAN CRITCHLEY: in the report — to access child abuse

IAN CRITCHLEY: material.

IAN CRITCHLEY: So first of all, stop it being on their

IAN CRITCHLEY: platforms in the first place.

IAN CRITCHLEY: Secondly, a legal duty to

IAN CRITCHLEY: identify and report to

IAN CRITCHLEY: the authorities once it's there.

IAN CRITCHLEY: And thirdly, to remove it from their

IAN CRITCHLEY: platforms, as well. We do have, to some

IAN CRITCHLEY: extent, good engagement with industry where

IAN CRITCHLEY: this happens, particularly with partnerships

IAN CRITCHLEY: with, for example, the Internet Watch

IAN CRITCHLEY: Foundation, in order to be able to report

IAN CRITCHLEY: and remove this material. But it is...

IAN CRITCHLEY: We are talking about the tip of an iceberg

IAN CRITCHLEY: when we consider the extent of offending

IAN CRITCHLEY: that I've outlined already.

IAN CRITCHLEY: And, no matter what is done — by

IAN CRITCHLEY: parents, carers, by law enforcement

IAN CRITCHLEY: — until industry plays its role, not

IAN CRITCHLEY: because they're forced to, because there are

IAN CRITCHLEY: legal duties. Because for me, they should

IAN CRITCHLEY: have a moral duty to make sure that

IAN CRITCHLEY: those people who are using their platforms,

IAN CRITCHLEY: that they have created these communities,

IAN CRITCHLEY: they have a moral duty to keep those

IAN CRITCHLEY: communities safe.

IAN CRITCHLEY: And if they don't, frankly, then they'll

IAN CRITCHLEY: find that people will walk away, quite

IAN CRITCHLEY: rightly, from that.

IAN CRITCHLEY: I believe this area, the online area,

IAN CRITCHLEY: also much wider than we're talking about

IAN CRITCHLEY: child abuse, because of course, we've seen

IAN CRITCHLEY: children access to other harmful material.

IAN CRITCHLEY: We've seen the impact on suicides in some

IAN CRITCHLEY: really dreadful cases that have been

IAN CRITCHLEY: highlighted in the news and inquests that

IAN CRITCHLEY: have taken place as a result of the

IAN CRITCHLEY: impact of harmful material that young

IAN CRITCHLEY: people have seen.

IAN CRITCHLEY: But I genuinely feel this is one of the

IAN CRITCHLEY: biggest public health issues facing

IAN CRITCHLEY: children. I'm really grateful for

IAN CRITCHLEY: the panel within IICSA making this

IAN CRITCHLEY: area really prominent.

IAN CRITCHLEY: I also believe it will feature prominently

IAN CRITCHLEY: in the rewrite of Working Together

IAN CRITCHLEY: that is ongoing and being consulted with at

IAN CRITCHLEY: this moment in time.

IAN CRITCHLEY: I don't think at this moment partners

IAN CRITCHLEY: consider the threats around online

IAN CRITCHLEY: probably quite as much as we do in terms of

IAN CRITCHLEY: some more traditional threats around child

IAN CRITCHLEY: protection. But I think that is starting to

IAN CRITCHLEY: change. And we take a responsibility for

IAN CRITCHLEY: that.

PRODUCER: And you mentioned the Online Safety Bill

PRODUCER: earlier. Does this piece of legislation do

PRODUCER: enough to address CSA?

PRODUCER: There are concerns around the ability to enforce

PRODUCER: the proposals laid out in a technology space

PRODUCER: where end-to-end encryption exists, for example.

IAN CRITCHLEY: I do believe it's an effective piece of

IAN CRITCHLEY: legislation. Clearly it's only effective

IAN CRITCHLEY: subject to how then it is implemented and

IAN CRITCHLEY: how it is regulated. And Ofcom are clearly

IAN CRITCHLEY: the main regulatory body in this regard.

IAN CRITCHLEY: The main duty in relation to child sexual

IAN CRITCHLEY: abuse is the necessity to prevent,

IAN CRITCHLEY: report and remove around

IAN CRITCHLEY: it. I think the first year or two will

IAN CRITCHLEY: require companies to outline

IAN CRITCHLEY: to Ofcom how they are going to mitigate and

IAN CRITCHLEY: manage that risk of harm.

IAN CRITCHLEY: They will have a specific duty around risk

IAN CRITCHLEY: assessments. They will have to demonstrate

IAN CRITCHLEY: how they are proactively identifying child

IAN CRITCHLEY: sexual abuse material and how they are

IAN CRITCHLEY: seeking to take reasonable steps

IAN CRITCHLEY: with technology to prevent it in the first

IAN CRITCHLEY: place. And I think that's going to be

IAN CRITCHLEY: absolutely the key in terms of what and who

IAN CRITCHLEY: defines what reasonable steps are being

IAN CRITCHLEY: used to prevent it.

IAN CRITCHLEY: I am concerned around the impact of

IAN CRITCHLEY: end-to-end encryption.

IAN CRITCHLEY: That seems to separate the need

IAN CRITCHLEY: and the societal need to protect children,

IAN CRITCHLEY: being pitched against a privacy argument.

IAN CRITCHLEY: This isn't the privacy issue.

IAN CRITCHLEY: And I totally understand the necessity for

IAN CRITCHLEY: privacy for young people, but there are

IAN CRITCHLEY: sufficient technical, enablers

IAN CRITCHLEY: to allow privacy and contact between

IAN CRITCHLEY: consenting people to that that protects

IAN CRITCHLEY: children and identifies offenders.

IAN CRITCHLEY: It's unfortunate that the language is being

IAN CRITCHLEY: used to try and conflict the two.

IAN CRITCHLEY: All of us have a duty to protect and

IAN CRITCHLEY: safeguard children.

IAN CRITCHLEY: There will be a legal duty to do that for

IAN CRITCHLEY: the companies. They cannot water that down,

IAN CRITCHLEY: or should not be able to water that down,

IAN CRITCHLEY: by saying, "well, we've brought end-to-end

IAN CRITCHLEY: encryption in and therefore we can't see

IAN CRITCHLEY: what's going on on our platforms. Therefore,

IAN CRITCHLEY: how can we prevent it or how can we report

IAN CRITCHLEY: it or remove it?" They have the technical

IAN CRITCHLEY: capabilities to ensure there is

IAN CRITCHLEY: encryption of message yet to be able to

IAN CRITCHLEY: identify, report and remove

IAN CRITCHLEY: indecent images of children.

IAN CRITCHLEY: That is a must. That is my concern.

IAN CRITCHLEY: I think my other concern is the speed in

IAN CRITCHLEY: which we move from implementation and

IAN CRITCHLEY: enactment to be able to identify

IAN CRITCHLEY: non-compliance around it.

IAN CRITCHLEY: So, the duty for companies to manage

IAN CRITCHLEY: and mitigate risk, to complete risk

IAN CRITCHLEY: assessments, to demonstrate what they're

IAN CRITCHLEY: doing, and then for Ofcom to assess that

IAN CRITCHLEY: and then determine and identify where there

IAN CRITCHLEY: is non-compliance; I'm just concerned about

IAN CRITCHLEY: the time scale. I think this area is moving

IAN CRITCHLEY: so quick. We're already talking about— it's

IAN CRITCHLEY: not something in the future when we're talking

IAN CRITCHLEY: about artificial intelligence and virtual

IAN CRITCHLEY: reality. It's already here.

IAN CRITCHLEY: We're already seeing child sexual abuse

IAN CRITCHLEY: material within the metaverse.

IAN CRITCHLEY: We are dealing with a huge increase in what

IAN CRITCHLEY: will start to become an even bigger

IAN CRITCHLEY: increase of demand in that area.

IAN CRITCHLEY: And ultimately, where should we really be

IAN CRITCHLEY: in this area? We should be preventing it

IAN CRITCHLEY: rather than having to respond to it in the

IAN CRITCHLEY: first place. I often will get and accept

IAN CRITCHLEY: and acknowledge the need for law enforcement

IAN CRITCHLEY: to step forward. We've worked with Her

IAN CRITCHLEY: Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary and

IAN CRITCHLEY: Fire and Rescue Service to take forward

IAN CRITCHLEY: recommendations for policing, so I

IAN CRITCHLEY: acknowledge and take responsibility, as the

IAN CRITCHLEY: national lead, that policing needs to do

IAN CRITCHLEY: much more.

IAN CRITCHLEY: But being able to predict the demand that

IAN CRITCHLEY: we've got here, being able to deal with

IAN CRITCHLEY: this, as well as many of the things that

IAN CRITCHLEY: policing needs to do, being able to

IAN CRITCHLEY: concentrate on those who are committing the

IAN CRITCHLEY: highest level of harm will best be done if

IAN CRITCHLEY: industry prevents such material being on

IAN CRITCHLEY: their platforms in the first place.

IAN CRITCHLEY: It will still be there; people will still

IAN CRITCHLEY: find their way to the dark web and other

IAN CRITCHLEY: areas but absolutely it will make it safer

IAN CRITCHLEY: for children. It will mean that it reduces

IAN CRITCHLEY: volume demand on us, and it will mean we

IAN CRITCHLEY: can concentrate on those who are committing

IAN CRITCHLEY: the highest level of harm.

IAN CRITCHLEY: It's a real challenge, but one in which we

IAN CRITCHLEY: must all strive to make sure that that

IAN CRITCHLEY: community, that online community, is

IAN CRITCHLEY: as safe as we would want our streets and

IAN CRITCHLEY: our neighbourhoods to be.

PRODUCER: Thanks to Ian Critchley and Susie Hargreaves.

PRODUCER: You can find a link to the Internet Watch

PRODUCER: Foundation's latest annual report in the podcast

PRODUCER: show notes.

PRODUCER: For more online safety advice, visit

PRODUCER: nspcc.org.uk/onlinesafety.

PRODUCER: In the next episode of Recommendations for

PRODUCER: Change, we'll be looking at justice and redress.

PRODUCER: What can be done to improve victims and

PRODUCER: survivors experiences of the criminal justice

PRODUCER: system?

PRODUCER: If you've been affected by any of the issues

PRODUCER: raised in this podcast, you can reach out to the

PRODUCER: NSPCC Helpline for support, call

PRODUCER: 0808 800 5000

PRODUCER: or email help@nspcc.org.uk.

PRODUCER: This podcast series was produced in Autumn 2023.

PRODUCER: All information was correct at the time of

PRODUCER: recording, but the world of child protection is

PRODUCER: ever-changing.

PRODUCER: To stay up to date, visit the NSPCC Learning

PRODUCER: website at nspcc.org.uk/learning.