1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:03,419 PRODUCER: Please note this podcast contains mention of 2 00:00:03,420 --> 00:00:04,739 PRODUCER: child sexual abuse. 3 00:00:13,870 --> 00:00:16,899 PRODUCER: In 2015, the Independent Inquiry into Child 4 00:00:16,900 --> 00:00:19,419 PRODUCER: Sexual Abuse was set up to investigate where 5 00:00:19,420 --> 00:00:21,849 PRODUCER: institutions failed to protect children in their 6 00:00:21,850 --> 00:00:22,850 PRODUCER: care. 7 00:00:23,590 --> 00:00:26,499 PRODUCER: The inquiry's final report, published in October 8 00:00:26,500 --> 00:00:29,979 PRODUCER: 2022, laid out a set of powerful recommendations 9 00:00:29,980 --> 00:00:32,649 PRODUCER: to address past failings and protect future 10 00:00:32,650 --> 00:00:34,659 PRODUCER: generations of children from abuse. 11 00:00:36,010 --> 00:00:38,079 PRODUCER: Recommendations for Change is a five part 12 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:41,349 PRODUCER: podcast series from NSPCC Learning, examining 13 00:00:41,350 --> 00:00:43,599 PRODUCER: why these recommendations are needed, how 14 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:46,569 PRODUCER: they'll work if implemented, and what impact 15 00:00:46,570 --> 00:00:48,849 PRODUCER: they will have on the prevention of child sexual 16 00:00:48,850 --> 00:00:49,850 PRODUCER: abuse. 17 00:00:52,470 --> 00:00:55,018 PRODUCER: Episode four: online safety. 18 00:00:59,850 --> 00:01:02,489 PRODUCER: Being online is an integral part of children and 19 00:01:02,490 --> 00:01:05,309 PRODUCER: young people's lives, but it can expose them to 20 00:01:05,310 --> 00:01:08,309 PRODUCER: risks, including sexual abuse. 21 00:01:08,310 --> 00:01:10,829 PRODUCER: The past five years has seen a proliferation in 22 00:01:10,830 --> 00:01:14,849 PRODUCER: child sexual abuse (CSA) material online 23 00:01:14,850 --> 00:01:17,609 PRODUCER: data from the Internet Watch Foundation, the UK 24 00:01:17,610 --> 00:01:20,339 PRODUCER: hotline for reporting and removing online child 25 00:01:20,340 --> 00:01:23,099 PRODUCER: sexual abuse material, shows that the number of 26 00:01:23,100 --> 00:01:26,669 PRODUCER: reports of web pages assessed as containing CSA 27 00:01:26,670 --> 00:01:29,949 PRODUCER: increased from 78,000 in 2017 28 00:01:29,950 --> 00:01:32,889 PRODUCER: to 255,000 in 29 00:01:32,890 --> 00:01:34,479 PRODUCER: 2022. 30 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,019 PRODUCER: IICSA published an investigation report into the 31 00:01:37,020 --> 00:01:40,019 PRODUCER: growing problem of online-facilitated CSA 32 00:01:40,020 --> 00:01:42,089 PRODUCER: in March 2020. 33 00:01:42,090 --> 00:01:44,819 PRODUCER: It investigated the response of law enforcement, 34 00:01:44,820 --> 00:01:47,579 PRODUCER: industry and government to three types of 35 00:01:47,580 --> 00:01:51,149 PRODUCER: offending: indecent images of children offences, 36 00:01:51,150 --> 00:01:53,909 PRODUCER: the grooming of a child, and live streaming of 37 00:01:53,910 --> 00:01:56,159 PRODUCER: child sexual abuse. 38 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,589 PRODUCER: It found that whilst the last five years have 39 00:01:58,590 --> 00:02:00,539 PRODUCER: seen improvements in the responses to these 40 00:02:00,540 --> 00:02:03,179 PRODUCER: issues, there was no evidence to suggest a 41 00:02:03,180 --> 00:02:06,329 PRODUCER: decrease in online child sexual abuse offences 42 00:02:06,330 --> 00:02:09,448 PRODUCER: and, quote, "law enforcement is struggling 43 00:02:09,449 --> 00:02:10,918 PRODUCER: to keep pace". 44 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:13,829 PRODUCER: A step forward was made in October 2023 45 00:02:13,830 --> 00:02:16,529 PRODUCER: with the passing of the Online Safety Act, which 46 00:02:16,530 --> 00:02:18,809 PRODUCER: gives online service providers new legal 47 00:02:18,810 --> 00:02:21,269 PRODUCER: responsibilities to keep children safe on their 48 00:02:21,270 --> 00:02:24,115 PRODUCER: platforms. However, there is still much work 49 00:02:24,116 --> 00:02:26,429 PRODUCER: that needs to be done in order to eradicate 50 00:02:26,430 --> 00:02:28,919 PRODUCER: child sexual abuse online. 51 00:02:28,920 --> 00:02:31,139 PRODUCER: In this episode, we will be exploring the scale 52 00:02:31,140 --> 00:02:33,749 PRODUCER: of the online abuse problem and how the 53 00:02:33,750 --> 00:02:36,979 PRODUCER: recommendations seek to tackle the issue. 54 00:02:36,980 --> 00:02:39,529 PRODUCER: Susie Hargreaves is the Chief Executive of the 55 00:02:39,530 --> 00:02:41,179 PRODUCER: Internet Watch Foundation. 56 00:02:41,180 --> 00:02:43,339 PRODUCER: We spoke to Susie about the importance of 57 00:02:43,340 --> 00:02:45,439 PRODUCER: implementing strong online protections for 58 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:48,409 PRODUCER: children in October 2023, a couple 59 00:02:48,410 --> 00:02:50,719 PRODUCER: of weeks before the Online Safety Act was signed 60 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:51,949 PRODUCER: into law. 61 00:02:51,950 --> 00:02:54,889 SUSIE HARGREAVES: The internet is a really positive space, 62 00:02:54,890 --> 00:02:56,899 SUSIE HARGREAVES: and of course, children get so much out 63 00:02:56,900 --> 00:02:58,309 SUSIE HARGREAVES: of use of the internet, their 64 00:02:58,310 --> 00:03:01,489 SUSIE HARGREAVES: entertainment, their social networking, 65 00:03:01,490 --> 00:03:03,289 SUSIE HARGREAVES: their education. But unfortunately it 66 00:03:03,290 --> 00:03:06,409 SUSIE HARGREAVES: has a really dark side as well, which 67 00:03:06,410 --> 00:03:08,149 SUSIE HARGREAVES: is that children are very easily 68 00:03:08,150 --> 00:03:10,909 SUSIE HARGREAVES: exploited on the internet, and, without 69 00:03:10,910 --> 00:03:13,279 SUSIE HARGREAVES: protections being put in place, there 70 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,439 SUSIE HARGREAVES: will always be people who will try and 71 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:17,419 SUSIE HARGREAVES: take advantage of the most vulnerable 72 00:03:17,420 --> 00:03:19,369 SUSIE HARGREAVES: people in society. 73 00:03:19,370 --> 00:03:22,069 SUSIE HARGREAVES: So, we would always say, you know, it's 74 00:03:22,070 --> 00:03:23,899 SUSIE HARGREAVES: not that technology is bad, it's not 75 00:03:23,900 --> 00:03:25,939 SUSIE HARGREAVES: that the internet is bad, but the 76 00:03:25,940 --> 00:03:28,189 SUSIE HARGREAVES: reality is that there is a lot of very, 77 00:03:28,190 --> 00:03:30,739 SUSIE HARGREAVES: very bad stuff on the internet, and we 78 00:03:30,740 --> 00:03:32,599 SUSIE HARGREAVES: need to do everything we can to keep our 79 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:34,069 SUSIE HARGREAVES: children safe. 80 00:03:34,070 --> 00:03:37,099 SUSIE HARGREAVES: Now, the IWF, the area I work with, we 81 00:03:37,100 --> 00:03:38,869 SUSIE HARGREAVES: deal with illegal content, so we're 82 00:03:38,870 --> 00:03:40,489 SUSIE HARGREAVES: dealing with the very worst of the 83 00:03:40,490 --> 00:03:42,769 SUSIE HARGREAVES: content. So this is illegal content. 84 00:03:42,770 --> 00:03:44,329 SUSIE HARGREAVES: It's illegal for everybody. 85 00:03:44,330 --> 00:03:47,389 SUSIE HARGREAVES: It's illegal to make, to share, 86 00:03:47,390 --> 00:03:50,389 SUSIE HARGREAVES: to distribute and to 87 00:03:50,390 --> 00:03:52,639 SUSIE HARGREAVES: produce. So, you know, basically we need 88 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:55,099 SUSIE HARGREAVES: to make sure that nobody has access to 89 00:03:55,100 --> 00:03:57,469 SUSIE HARGREAVES: this content. But of course, looking at 90 00:03:57,470 --> 00:03:59,689 SUSIE HARGREAVES: this content is not the worst thing. 91 00:03:59,690 --> 00:04:01,129 SUSIE HARGREAVES: The worst thing is that actually 92 00:04:01,130 --> 00:04:02,809 SUSIE HARGREAVES: children are sexually abused in the 93 00:04:02,810 --> 00:04:04,639 SUSIE HARGREAVES: making of this content. And in fact, 94 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:06,979 SUSIE HARGREAVES: every single time somebody looks at that 95 00:04:06,980 --> 00:04:08,552 SUSIE HARGREAVES: content, that child is revictimised, 96 00:04:08,553 --> 00:04:11,689 SUSIE HARGREAVES: their abuse reoccurs, 97 00:04:11,690 --> 00:04:13,879 SUSIE HARGREAVES: and it's not a victimless crime. 98 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:15,979 SUSIE HARGREAVES: So what we need to do is do everything 99 00:04:15,980 --> 00:04:19,219 SUSIE HARGREAVES: we can to put safety protections around 100 00:04:19,220 --> 00:04:21,949 SUSIE HARGREAVES: children online so that this really 101 00:04:21,950 --> 00:04:25,159 SUSIE HARGREAVES: hideous, heinous crime doesn't happen 102 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:27,109 SUSIE HARGREAVES: because children carry it with them for 103 00:04:27,110 --> 00:04:28,729 SUSIE HARGREAVES: the rest of their lives. 104 00:04:28,730 --> 00:04:31,639 PRODUCER: What does the IICSA final report say about the 105 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,429 PRODUCER: challenge presented by online-facilitated child 106 00:04:34,430 --> 00:04:35,809 PRODUCER: sexual abuse? 107 00:04:35,810 --> 00:04:37,609 SUSIE HARGREAVES: Well, the IICSA final report made a 108 00:04:37,610 --> 00:04:38,959 SUSIE HARGREAVES: number of recommendations. 109 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:40,639 SUSIE HARGREAVES: Obviously only a few of them were 110 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:43,699 SUSIE HARGREAVES: related to online child sexual abuse. 111 00:04:43,700 --> 00:04:45,469 SUSIE HARGREAVES: We were privileged enough to be 112 00:04:45,470 --> 00:04:48,439 SUSIE HARGREAVES: co-participants in the IICSA inquiry on 113 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,229 SUSIE HARGREAVES: the online space, and it was very clear 114 00:04:51,230 --> 00:04:53,569 SUSIE HARGREAVES: that we needed to put some specific 115 00:04:53,570 --> 00:04:55,939 SUSIE HARGREAVES: protections in place for children. 116 00:04:55,940 --> 00:04:59,329 SUSIE HARGREAVES: Of course, this was aligned to what was 117 00:04:59,330 --> 00:05:00,709 SUSIE HARGREAVES: happening at that time. The Online 118 00:05:00,710 --> 00:05:03,109 SUSIE HARGREAVES: Safety Bill was going through Parliament 119 00:05:03,110 --> 00:05:05,989 SUSIE HARGREAVES: at the time, and actually IICSA was 120 00:05:05,990 --> 00:05:07,489 SUSIE HARGREAVES: taking that into account. 121 00:05:07,490 --> 00:05:09,679 SUSIE HARGREAVES: So specifically on the online space, it 122 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:11,389 SUSIE HARGREAVES: made a number of recommendations. 123 00:05:11,390 --> 00:05:13,579 SUSIE HARGREAVES: The first, which totally relates to our 124 00:05:13,580 --> 00:05:17,299 SUSIE HARGREAVES: area of work, was the need to screen 125 00:05:17,300 --> 00:05:19,249 SUSIE HARGREAVES: for child sexual abuse. 126 00:05:19,250 --> 00:05:21,739 SUSIE HARGREAVES: So instead of sort of just relying on 127 00:05:21,740 --> 00:05:23,869 SUSIE HARGREAVES: people might do it, companies might do 128 00:05:23,870 --> 00:05:26,419 SUSIE HARGREAVES: it. There would then be, a commitment 129 00:05:26,420 --> 00:05:28,249 SUSIE HARGREAVES: from companies to have to 130 00:05:28,250 --> 00:05:30,679 SUSIE HARGREAVES: pre-screen/screen to ensure that child 131 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:32,989 SUSIE HARGREAVES: sexual abuse did not go onto their 132 00:05:32,990 --> 00:05:35,569 SUSIE HARGREAVES: platforms using a range of technologies 133 00:05:35,570 --> 00:05:36,949 SUSIE HARGREAVES: to enable them to do that. 134 00:05:36,950 --> 00:05:39,259 SUSIE HARGREAVES: And that was really important for us. 135 00:05:39,260 --> 00:05:41,539 SUSIE HARGREAVES: The second was the age verification 136 00:05:41,540 --> 00:05:44,689 SUSIE HARGREAVES: side. So whilst the IWF is not 137 00:05:44,690 --> 00:05:47,569 SUSIE HARGREAVES: an organisation that deals with 138 00:05:47,570 --> 00:05:49,819 SUSIE HARGREAVES: inappropriate content that children are 139 00:05:49,820 --> 00:05:53,089 SUSIE HARGREAVES: accessing, we are also, co-directors 140 00:05:53,090 --> 00:05:55,129 SUSIE HARGREAVES: of the UK's Safer Internet Centre, so 141 00:05:55,130 --> 00:05:58,489 SUSIE HARGREAVES: obviously we care very, very much about 142 00:05:58,490 --> 00:06:01,039 SUSIE HARGREAVES: children's access to that material. 143 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:03,079 SUSIE HARGREAVES: So we want to ensure that children do 144 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:05,599 SUSIE HARGREAVES: not have access to pornography. 145 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:08,119 SUSIE HARGREAVES: We also want to ensure that children who 146 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,089 SUSIE HARGREAVES: are under 13 don't have access 147 00:06:11,090 --> 00:06:12,439 SUSIE HARGREAVES: to social media. 148 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,649 SUSIE HARGREAVES: So we really want to see robust 149 00:06:15,650 --> 00:06:18,919 SUSIE HARGREAVES: age verification and age appropriate 150 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,889 SUSIE HARGREAVES: tools put in place on the online safety 151 00:06:21,890 --> 00:06:24,319 SUSIE HARGREAVES: bill. And the third was the CSE/A, the 152 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:26,569 SUSIE HARGREAVES: Child Sexual Exploitation and Abuse Code 153 00:06:26,570 --> 00:06:29,209 SUSIE HARGREAVES: of practice, which of course, is, under 154 00:06:29,210 --> 00:06:30,859 SUSIE HARGREAVES: the Online Safety Bill. 155 00:06:30,860 --> 00:06:33,109 PRODUCER: You mentioned the Online Safety Bill, which is 156 00:06:33,110 --> 00:06:35,179 PRODUCER: soon to be given royal assent and will become 157 00:06:35,180 --> 00:06:37,009 PRODUCER: the Online Safety Act. 158 00:06:37,010 --> 00:06:39,679 PRODUCER: How does the Online Safety Act dovetail with the 159 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:41,449 PRODUCER: final recommendations? 160 00:06:41,450 --> 00:06:44,569 SUSIE HARGREAVES: Now, prior to the, bill going through 161 00:06:44,570 --> 00:06:46,369 SUSIE HARGREAVES: in relation to online child sexual 162 00:06:46,370 --> 00:06:48,859 SUSIE HARGREAVES: abuse, companies worked on a voluntary 163 00:06:48,860 --> 00:06:52,039 SUSIE HARGREAVES: basis. So they were 164 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,039 SUSIE HARGREAVES: obliged kind of morally to 165 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:56,419 SUSIE HARGREAVES: do what they could to keep their 166 00:06:56,420 --> 00:06:58,947 SUSIE HARGREAVES: platforms clean of child sexual abuse, 167 00:06:58,948 --> 00:07:00,829 SUSIE HARGREAVES: or to do as much as they possibly could 168 00:07:00,830 --> 00:07:03,559 SUSIE HARGREAVES: to ensure that it didn't get loaded onto 169 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:05,689 SUSIE HARGREAVES: their platforms, but there was no kind 170 00:07:05,690 --> 00:07:07,879 SUSIE HARGREAVES: of transparency or accountability around 171 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:09,649 SUSIE HARGREAVES: that. Now, what's really important about 172 00:07:09,650 --> 00:07:11,779 SUSIE HARGREAVES: the Online Safety Bill is that will no 173 00:07:11,780 --> 00:07:13,519 SUSIE HARGREAVES: longer be a voluntary thing, but they 174 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:15,589 SUSIE HARGREAVES: will actually have to legally comply 175 00:07:15,590 --> 00:07:17,539 SUSIE HARGREAVES: with that. So they will have to 176 00:07:17,540 --> 00:07:20,479 SUSIE HARGREAVES: demonstrate, how they are doing 177 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:21,889 SUSIE HARGREAVES: the best they can to keep their 178 00:07:21,890 --> 00:07:23,509 SUSIE HARGREAVES: platforms as clean as possible. 179 00:07:23,510 --> 00:07:25,549 SUSIE HARGREAVES: And that will be to ensure that there 180 00:07:25,550 --> 00:07:28,519 SUSIE HARGREAVES: are robust online safety tools, 181 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:30,787 SUSIE HARGREAVES: that there are robust tech solutions. 182 00:07:30,788 --> 00:07:33,709 SUSIE HARGREAVES: So we provide a number 183 00:07:33,710 --> 00:07:35,509 SUSIE HARGREAVES: of tech solutions to companies. 184 00:07:35,510 --> 00:07:37,829 SUSIE HARGREAVES: So when we talk about screening 185 00:07:37,830 --> 00:07:39,839 SUSIE HARGREAVES: platforms, what we're talking about is 186 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:41,729 SUSIE HARGREAVES: we provide things like a hash list, 187 00:07:41,730 --> 00:07:43,769 SUSIE HARGREAVES: which is a list of digital fingerprints 188 00:07:43,770 --> 00:07:46,289 SUSIE HARGREAVES: of known child sexual abuse images — we 189 00:07:46,290 --> 00:07:48,149 SUSIE HARGREAVES: currently have about 1.2 million of 190 00:07:48,150 --> 00:07:51,659 SUSIE HARGREAVES: these — and companies will deploy 191 00:07:51,660 --> 00:07:53,789 SUSIE HARGREAVES: that across their platform to stop 192 00:07:53,790 --> 00:07:57,209 SUSIE HARGREAVES: anybody uploading a duplicate image. 193 00:07:57,210 --> 00:07:59,339 SUSIE HARGREAVES: If it has a match, it won't go onto the 194 00:07:59,340 --> 00:08:01,469 SUSIE HARGREAVES: platform. So that's really important so 195 00:08:01,470 --> 00:08:03,179 SUSIE HARGREAVES: that that content doesn't get onto the 196 00:08:03,180 --> 00:08:04,589 SUSIE HARGREAVES: platform to begin with. 197 00:08:04,590 --> 00:08:06,659 SUSIE HARGREAVES: We also provide things like a blocking 198 00:08:06,660 --> 00:08:09,479 SUSIE HARGREAVES: list, a URL list, a list of web pages 199 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:11,129 SUSIE HARGREAVES: that currently contain child sexual 200 00:08:11,130 --> 00:08:12,629 SUSIE HARGREAVES: abuse and haven't been removed from the 201 00:08:12,630 --> 00:08:16,439 SUSIE HARGREAVES: internet yet. They will be obliged to 202 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:18,239 SUSIE HARGREAVES: make sure that people can't access that 203 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:19,679 SUSIE HARGREAVES: material. 204 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,319 SUSIE HARGREAVES: It's really important that these 205 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:24,329 SUSIE HARGREAVES: elements of the IICSA report, which 206 00:08:24,330 --> 00:08:26,369 SUSIE HARGREAVES: raised awareness of the fact that that a 207 00:08:26,370 --> 00:08:27,809 SUSIE HARGREAVES: lot of companies weren't doing that, 208 00:08:27,810 --> 00:08:29,969 SUSIE HARGREAVES: they now will be legally obliged to do 209 00:08:29,970 --> 00:08:32,158 SUSIE HARGREAVES: that. The other thing that's important 210 00:08:32,159 --> 00:08:34,408 SUSIE HARGREAVES: to say in relation to how the Online 211 00:08:34,409 --> 00:08:37,079 SUSIE HARGREAVES: Safety Act, as it will be, in a couple 212 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,449 SUSIE HARGREAVES: of weeks, dovetails with the IICSA final 213 00:08:39,450 --> 00:08:42,329 SUSIE HARGREAVES: report, is an awful lot of the detail 214 00:08:42,330 --> 00:08:45,479 SUSIE HARGREAVES: has yet to be worked through. 215 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:47,519 SUSIE HARGREAVES: So, whilst we have some fundamental 216 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:49,499 SUSIE HARGREAVES: principles in place around the Online 217 00:08:49,500 --> 00:08:52,679 SUSIE HARGREAVES: Safety Act, the actual operational side 218 00:08:52,680 --> 00:08:54,539 SUSIE HARGREAVES: is really still to play for. 219 00:08:54,540 --> 00:08:56,900 SUSIE HARGREAVES: So we need to ensure that when the 220 00:08:56,901 --> 00:08:59,129 SUSIE HARGREAVES: consultation comes out, and they'll be 221 00:08:59,130 --> 00:09:00,779 SUSIE HARGREAVES: dealing with illegal material in the 222 00:09:00,780 --> 00:09:02,789 SUSIE HARGREAVES: first instance, which is the area we 223 00:09:02,790 --> 00:09:04,439 SUSIE HARGREAVES: work in, but some of the sort of 224 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:06,239 SUSIE HARGREAVES: knottier, more difficult questions 225 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:08,789 SUSIE HARGREAVES: around harmful content and making sure 226 00:09:08,790 --> 00:09:10,949 SUSIE HARGREAVES: that we keep children safe online have 227 00:09:10,950 --> 00:09:12,989 SUSIE HARGREAVES: to be worked through. So it's not a job 228 00:09:12,990 --> 00:09:15,209 SUSIE HARGREAVES: done yet. And that's why it's really 229 00:09:15,210 --> 00:09:16,859 SUSIE HARGREAVES: important to keep the pressure on about 230 00:09:16,860 --> 00:09:18,899 SUSIE HARGREAVES: the IICSA recommendations, because we 231 00:09:18,900 --> 00:09:21,059 SUSIE HARGREAVES: are all, across the child protection 232 00:09:21,060 --> 00:09:23,249 SUSIE HARGREAVES: spectrum, online and offline, we're 233 00:09:23,250 --> 00:09:26,339 SUSIE HARGREAVES: working together to keep people focused 234 00:09:26,340 --> 00:09:27,809 SUSIE HARGREAVES: on these are our recommendation. 235 00:09:27,810 --> 00:09:29,759 SUSIE HARGREAVES: These are the things we want to see. 236 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:31,199 SUSIE HARGREAVES: And we can't just sit there and be 237 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:33,119 SUSIE HARGREAVES: complacent and think, well, the Online 238 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:35,009 SUSIE HARGREAVES: Safety Bill is done and dusted, so 239 00:09:35,010 --> 00:09:36,359 SUSIE HARGREAVES: that's going to cover everything. 240 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:38,789 SUSIE HARGREAVES: So there's still a lot of work to do. 241 00:09:38,790 --> 00:09:41,429 PRODUCER: And finally, what can professionals working with 242 00:09:41,430 --> 00:09:43,889 PRODUCER: children and young people do to keep them safe 243 00:09:43,890 --> 00:09:44,819 PRODUCER: online? 244 00:09:44,820 --> 00:09:46,289 SUSIE HARGREAVES: Well, one of the things we would always 245 00:09:46,290 --> 00:09:48,149 SUSIE HARGREAVES: say about the ways in which 246 00:09:48,150 --> 00:09:50,279 SUSIE HARGREAVES: professionals working with children and 247 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:52,739 SUSIE HARGREAVES: young people can help them keep safe 248 00:09:52,740 --> 00:09:56,099 SUSIE HARGREAVES: online is that it's not just a one 249 00:09:56,100 --> 00:09:57,449 SUSIE HARGREAVES: thing is the solution. 250 00:09:57,450 --> 00:10:00,089 SUSIE HARGREAVES: You know, actually you have to take a 251 00:10:00,090 --> 00:10:02,639 SUSIE HARGREAVES: joint approach. So, we work in 252 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,039 SUSIE HARGREAVES: technology. Now technology is part of 253 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:06,839 SUSIE HARGREAVES: the solution. It's a major part of the 254 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:08,789 SUSIE HARGREAVES: solution. And the internet companies 255 00:10:08,790 --> 00:10:11,189 SUSIE HARGREAVES: have got a lot more to do to ensure that 256 00:10:11,190 --> 00:10:13,109 SUSIE HARGREAVES: they keep children safe online. 257 00:10:13,110 --> 00:10:14,699 SUSIE HARGREAVES: But that's not the whole picture. 258 00:10:14,700 --> 00:10:16,919 SUSIE HARGREAVES: We also need to have proper legislative 259 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:18,569 SUSIE HARGREAVES: and law enforcement support. 260 00:10:18,570 --> 00:10:20,219 SUSIE HARGREAVES: Hopefully this will be resolved through 261 00:10:20,220 --> 00:10:21,509 SUSIE HARGREAVES: the Online Safety Bill. 262 00:10:21,510 --> 00:10:23,369 SUSIE HARGREAVES: But also we need a really strong 263 00:10:23,370 --> 00:10:25,409 SUSIE HARGREAVES: education and awareness programme. 264 00:10:25,410 --> 00:10:26,969 SUSIE HARGREAVES: And that's why it's really important 265 00:10:26,970 --> 00:10:28,589 SUSIE HARGREAVES: that a lot of us work together. 266 00:10:28,590 --> 00:10:31,529 SUSIE HARGREAVES: So the IWF, the organisation I lead, 267 00:10:31,530 --> 00:10:34,439 SUSIE HARGREAVES: we are very much dealing with technical 268 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:36,599 SUSIE HARGREAVES: solutions, but it's really important we 269 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:40,019 SUSIE HARGREAVES: work with organisations like the NSPCC, 270 00:10:40,020 --> 00:10:41,699 SUSIE HARGREAVES: because we don't deal directly with 271 00:10:41,700 --> 00:10:43,379 SUSIE HARGREAVES: children, we don't have that level of 272 00:10:43,380 --> 00:10:45,659 SUSIE HARGREAVES: expertise, but we can share our 273 00:10:45,660 --> 00:10:47,519 SUSIE HARGREAVES: knowledge between us. And that's really 274 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:49,739 SUSIE HARGREAVES: important. And a great example of that 275 00:10:49,740 --> 00:10:51,839 SUSIE HARGREAVES: is that we run a project called Report 276 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:53,999 SUSIE HARGREAVES: Remove together, where we enable young 277 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,209 SUSIE HARGREAVES: people to self-refer nudes of themselves 278 00:10:57,210 --> 00:10:59,549 SUSIE HARGREAVES: for us to get them removed, to stop them 279 00:10:59,550 --> 00:11:02,339 SUSIE HARGREAVES: being criminalised and to get those 280 00:11:02,340 --> 00:11:04,559 SUSIE HARGREAVES: taken off the internet. We deal with the 281 00:11:04,560 --> 00:11:06,689 SUSIE HARGREAVES: kind of technical, how do you take it 282 00:11:06,690 --> 00:11:08,909 SUSIE HARGREAVES: down off the internet, and the NSPCC 283 00:11:08,910 --> 00:11:11,099 SUSIE HARGREAVES: deal with the safeguarding aspect, but 284 00:11:11,100 --> 00:11:12,869 SUSIE HARGREAVES: we join together on some of the 285 00:11:12,870 --> 00:11:15,059 SUSIE HARGREAVES: education and awareness around that. 286 00:11:15,060 --> 00:11:16,949 SUSIE HARGREAVES: So I think what's really important is 287 00:11:16,950 --> 00:11:18,929 SUSIE HARGREAVES: that everybody works together and we 288 00:11:18,930 --> 00:11:20,549 SUSIE HARGREAVES: recognise that there isn't a single 289 00:11:20,550 --> 00:11:21,839 SUSIE HARGREAVES: solution to this. 290 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:23,879 SUSIE HARGREAVES: But the other thing we really feel 291 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:25,529 SUSIE HARGREAVES: strongly — and I know this is shared 292 00:11:25,530 --> 00:11:27,179 SUSIE HARGREAVES: across the board — that parents and 293 00:11:27,180 --> 00:11:29,279 SUSIE HARGREAVES: carers, they do have a responsibility to 294 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:30,839 SUSIE HARGREAVES: make sure they do the best to keep 295 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:32,249 SUSIE HARGREAVES: children safe online. 296 00:11:32,250 --> 00:11:33,599 SUSIE HARGREAVES: And you can't just bury your head in the 297 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:35,669 SUSIE HARGREAVES: sand on this. So, in the same ways you 298 00:11:35,670 --> 00:11:37,319 SUSIE HARGREAVES: would on any element of children's 299 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:38,525 SUSIE HARGREAVES: safety, you need to not 300 00:11:40,230 --> 00:11:41,969 SUSIE HARGREAVES: be scared by the internet. 301 00:11:41,970 --> 00:11:43,289 SUSIE HARGREAVES: There's lots of help out there. 302 00:11:43,290 --> 00:11:45,359 SUSIE HARGREAVES: There's lots of resources. 303 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:48,059 SUSIE HARGREAVES: There's lots of practical know-how 304 00:11:48,060 --> 00:11:50,909 SUSIE HARGREAVES: points to help you keep yourself safe 305 00:11:50,910 --> 00:11:52,589 SUSIE HARGREAVES: online. And one of the things we've 306 00:11:52,590 --> 00:11:54,419 SUSIE HARGREAVES: discovered through the research we've 307 00:11:54,420 --> 00:11:56,669 SUSIE HARGREAVES: done is that, you know, one meaningful 308 00:11:56,670 --> 00:11:58,139 SUSIE HARGREAVES: conversation can make all the 309 00:11:58,140 --> 00:12:01,019 SUSIE HARGREAVES: difference. So it's really important 310 00:12:01,020 --> 00:12:02,309 SUSIE HARGREAVES: that people talk about that. 311 00:12:02,310 --> 00:12:04,229 SUSIE HARGREAVES: So you have to think about and learn 312 00:12:04,230 --> 00:12:05,853 SUSIE HARGREAVES: about platforms that your children are 313 00:12:05,854 --> 00:12:08,459 SUSIE HARGREAVES: on. You have to talk to them about what 314 00:12:08,460 --> 00:12:10,469 SUSIE HARGREAVES: they're doing. You have to set family 315 00:12:10,470 --> 00:12:11,969 SUSIE HARGREAVES: rules and family guidelines that 316 00:12:11,970 --> 00:12:14,249 SUSIE HARGREAVES: everybody sticks to, and you have to 317 00:12:14,250 --> 00:12:16,349 SUSIE HARGREAVES: take a sensible approach to this. 318 00:12:16,350 --> 00:12:18,509 SUSIE HARGREAVES: But I think being scared of the internet 319 00:12:18,510 --> 00:12:20,849 SUSIE HARGREAVES: is not helpful. Let's just all accept 320 00:12:20,850 --> 00:12:22,529 SUSIE HARGREAVES: the internet is a wonderful thing, 321 00:12:22,530 --> 00:12:26,039 SUSIE HARGREAVES: wonderful. But we have a responsibility 322 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:29,399 SUSIE HARGREAVES: to tackle that really dangerous, unsafe 323 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:32,199 SUSIE HARGREAVES: element. And if you've got a six- or 324 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:34,199 SUSIE HARGREAVES: seven-year-old, they really shouldn't be 325 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,379 SUSIE HARGREAVES: in that bedroom on their own with a 326 00:12:36,380 --> 00:12:38,599 SUSIE HARGREAVES: camera-enabled device and an internet 327 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:40,549 SUSIE HARGREAVES: connection without supervision. 328 00:12:40,550 --> 00:12:42,289 SUSIE HARGREAVES: So don't think just because they're in 329 00:12:42,290 --> 00:12:43,579 SUSIE HARGREAVES: your house that they're safe. 330 00:12:43,580 --> 00:12:45,499 SUSIE HARGREAVES: You have a responsibility to know what 331 00:12:45,500 --> 00:12:47,989 SUSIE HARGREAVES: they're doing. But don't panic because 332 00:12:47,990 --> 00:12:50,059 SUSIE HARGREAVES: the help is out there as well. 333 00:12:50,060 --> 00:12:52,669 PRODUCER: As Susie said earlier, the Online Safety Act 334 00:12:52,670 --> 00:12:55,279 PRODUCER: introduces legal requirements for companies to 335 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:57,499 PRODUCER: prevent illegal content from appearing on their 336 00:12:57,500 --> 00:13:00,439 PRODUCER: platforms. This includes content depicting, 337 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:04,159 PRODUCER: promoting or facilitating child sexual abuse. 338 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:06,229 PRODUCER: If age inappropriate content, such as 339 00:13:06,230 --> 00:13:09,349 PRODUCER: pornography, is present on a platform, companies 340 00:13:09,350 --> 00:13:12,319 PRODUCER: must also use age verification tools to prevent 341 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:14,809 PRODUCER: children from accessing this content. 342 00:13:14,810 --> 00:13:16,999 PRODUCER: This can be seen as a fulfilment of IICSA's 343 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,699 PRODUCER: recommendations on online safety. 344 00:13:19,700 --> 00:13:22,609 PRODUCER: Recommendation 12 proposes that providers of 345 00:13:22,610 --> 00:13:25,219 PRODUCER: internet search services and user-to-user 346 00:13:25,220 --> 00:13:28,159 PRODUCER: services pre-screen uploaded content 347 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:31,219 PRODUCER: for known child sexual abuse material. 348 00:13:31,220 --> 00:13:33,979 PRODUCER: Recommendation 20 proposes that the UK 349 00:13:33,980 --> 00:13:36,229 PRODUCER: government change the law to make sure that 350 00:13:36,230 --> 00:13:38,719 PRODUCER: social media platforms and other companies that 351 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,899 PRODUCER: provide online services introduce better age 352 00:13:41,900 --> 00:13:44,029 PRODUCER: verification measures. 353 00:13:44,030 --> 00:13:46,879 PRODUCER: However, as Susie says, we will have to wait and 354 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:49,189 PRODUCER: see whether this legislation has the desired 355 00:13:49,190 --> 00:13:51,769 PRODUCER: effect or whether more steps are needed to 356 00:13:51,770 --> 00:13:53,635 PRODUCER: tackle online-facilitated CSA. 357 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:56,989 PRODUCER: I wanted to find out more about how law 358 00:13:56,990 --> 00:13:59,869 PRODUCER: enforcement responds to online-facilitated child 359 00:13:59,870 --> 00:14:02,839 PRODUCER: sexual abuse, so I spoke to Ian Critchley, the 360 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,149 PRODUCER: National Police Chiefs Council lead for child 361 00:14:05,150 --> 00:14:06,359 PRODUCER: protection. 362 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:08,809 IAN CRITCHLEY: I genuinely feel this is one of the most 363 00:14:08,810 --> 00:14:11,209 IAN CRITCHLEY: critical areas in society that we are now 364 00:14:11,210 --> 00:14:13,339 IAN CRITCHLEY: now dealing with: the explosion of the 365 00:14:13,340 --> 00:14:15,541 IAN CRITCHLEY: internet. As we know, it's a real positive 366 00:14:15,542 --> 00:14:18,109 IAN CRITCHLEY: with opportunities for us all, and 367 00:14:18,110 --> 00:14:19,639 IAN CRITCHLEY: particularly for young people, but also 368 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,279 IAN CRITCHLEY: brings with it a great threat and challenge 369 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:24,469 IAN CRITCHLEY: that we must we must address. 370 00:14:24,470 --> 00:14:26,989 IAN CRITCHLEY: And it's that area that I feel that we have 371 00:14:26,990 --> 00:14:29,569 IAN CRITCHLEY: a great responsibility for, both law 372 00:14:29,570 --> 00:14:32,239 IAN CRITCHLEY: enforcement and our partners, parents and 373 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:34,279 IAN CRITCHLEY: carers — and I'm a parent of three children 374 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,339 IAN CRITCHLEY: myself — but also, most importantly, the 375 00:14:37,340 --> 00:14:40,219 IAN CRITCHLEY: industry and the companies who should take 376 00:14:40,220 --> 00:14:42,289 IAN CRITCHLEY: the greatest responsibility. 377 00:14:42,290 --> 00:14:45,349 IAN CRITCHLEY: The accessibility now to young people, 378 00:14:45,350 --> 00:14:46,609 IAN CRITCHLEY: 12- to 15-year-olds. 379 00:14:46,610 --> 00:14:49,579 IAN CRITCHLEY: And there's a doubling of, since 2011, 380 00:14:49,580 --> 00:14:51,409 IAN CRITCHLEY: of access to smartphones. 381 00:14:51,410 --> 00:14:54,409 IAN CRITCHLEY: So we will be in the 90% now of 12- to 382 00:14:54,410 --> 00:14:56,569 IAN CRITCHLEY: 15-year-olds, but of 8- to 11-year-olds; 383 00:14:56,570 --> 00:14:58,669 IAN CRITCHLEY: we're over 20% now of 8- to 11-year-olds 384 00:14:58,670 --> 00:15:01,009 IAN CRITCHLEY: who have a social media account. 385 00:15:01,010 --> 00:15:04,039 IAN CRITCHLEY: So we must ensure that we protect young 386 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:05,509 IAN CRITCHLEY: people from harm. 387 00:15:05,510 --> 00:15:07,759 IAN CRITCHLEY: What does that harm look like? 388 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,759 IAN CRITCHLEY: It is of the highest level, from adults 389 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,729 IAN CRITCHLEY: who seek to groom exploit young children 390 00:15:13,730 --> 00:15:15,799 IAN CRITCHLEY: by meeting with them, having facilitated 391 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:19,339 IAN CRITCHLEY: meetings online, seek to blackmail 392 00:15:19,340 --> 00:15:22,369 IAN CRITCHLEY: them to share further images of themselves. 393 00:15:22,370 --> 00:15:25,159 IAN CRITCHLEY: And we see some of the worst offending that 394 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:27,649 IAN CRITCHLEY: we know has huge, huge impact for the rest 395 00:15:27,650 --> 00:15:30,259 IAN CRITCHLEY: of children's lives. And clearly, myself, 396 00:15:30,260 --> 00:15:32,539 IAN CRITCHLEY: my colleagues, NCA, other law enforcement, 397 00:15:32,540 --> 00:15:34,639 IAN CRITCHLEY: both in the UK and around the country, are 398 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,079 IAN CRITCHLEY: working tirelessly to identify these 399 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:38,080 IAN CRITCHLEY: offenders. 400 00:15:39,230 --> 00:15:41,089 IAN CRITCHLEY: We're also seeing a rise in relation to 401 00:15:41,090 --> 00:15:43,789 IAN CRITCHLEY: peer-on-peer offending. 402 00:15:43,790 --> 00:15:46,279 IAN CRITCHLEY: We saw from the Everyone's Invited 403 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:49,279 IAN CRITCHLEY: campaign, which called out offending 404 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:50,959 IAN CRITCHLEY: within the school, particularly within the 405 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,449 IAN CRITCHLEY: school environment, of high harm offences 406 00:15:53,450 --> 00:15:56,809 IAN CRITCHLEY: that were being committed between peers 407 00:15:56,810 --> 00:15:58,939 IAN CRITCHLEY: of which there is absolutely criminal 408 00:15:58,940 --> 00:16:00,769 IAN CRITCHLEY: justice route for high harm offending. 409 00:16:00,770 --> 00:16:03,169 IAN CRITCHLEY: But what we also saw was what we say is a 410 00:16:03,170 --> 00:16:06,349 IAN CRITCHLEY: normalisation of behaviour in 411 00:16:06,350 --> 00:16:08,599 IAN CRITCHLEY: this area. So what do I mean by that? 412 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:10,819 IAN CRITCHLEY: Young people taking imagery of themselves, 413 00:16:10,820 --> 00:16:13,175 IAN CRITCHLEY: self-generated imagery, sharing it with 414 00:16:13,176 --> 00:16:16,459 IAN CRITCHLEY: their partners, consensual partners. 415 00:16:16,460 --> 00:16:18,049 IAN CRITCHLEY: And of course, they might be the partners 416 00:16:18,050 --> 00:16:19,939 IAN CRITCHLEY: at the time but clearly once an image is shared, 417 00:16:19,940 --> 00:16:23,809 IAN CRITCHLEY: it can be lost and therefore used across 418 00:16:23,810 --> 00:16:26,029 IAN CRITCHLEY: the internet in many different ways. 419 00:16:26,030 --> 00:16:28,039 IAN CRITCHLEY: We don't want to criminalise young people 420 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:29,419 IAN CRITCHLEY: in this area. It's important that we're 421 00:16:29,420 --> 00:16:32,359 IAN CRITCHLEY: able to safeguard and protect them 422 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:33,709 IAN CRITCHLEY: as well. 423 00:16:33,710 --> 00:16:35,659 IAN CRITCHLEY: And this is just where we are now, clearly, 424 00:16:35,660 --> 00:16:37,669 IAN CRITCHLEY: on top of that, we have a growing 425 00:16:37,670 --> 00:16:40,489 IAN CRITCHLEY: development of artificial intelligence, 426 00:16:40,490 --> 00:16:41,959 IAN CRITCHLEY: children going into what we call the 427 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,839 IAN CRITCHLEY: metaverse as well, young children going 428 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,869 IAN CRITCHLEY: into, you know, social media, gaming, 429 00:16:47,870 --> 00:16:49,819 IAN CRITCHLEY: and not knowing who they are dealing with 430 00:16:49,820 --> 00:16:51,169 IAN CRITCHLEY: or confronting. 431 00:16:51,170 --> 00:16:52,819 IAN CRITCHLEY: So, really important that we take our 432 00:16:52,820 --> 00:16:54,919 IAN CRITCHLEY: responsibilities as law enforcement and 433 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:57,109 IAN CRITCHLEY: partners, really important as parents and 434 00:16:57,110 --> 00:16:58,879 IAN CRITCHLEY: carers that we have those challenging 435 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:00,769 IAN CRITCHLEY: conversations — I know how difficult they 436 00:17:00,770 --> 00:17:03,259 IAN CRITCHLEY: are, but we have them — and give trust and 437 00:17:03,260 --> 00:17:05,088 IAN CRITCHLEY: confidence to the young people to engage. 438 00:17:05,089 --> 00:17:07,801 IAN CRITCHLEY: But most importantly, that industry 439 00:17:08,900 --> 00:17:11,509 IAN CRITCHLEY: steps up to the mark, much more so than 440 00:17:11,510 --> 00:17:13,909 IAN CRITCHLEY: it's doing now. And I really welcome the 441 00:17:13,910 --> 00:17:15,559 IAN CRITCHLEY: Online Safety Bill and the impact of that 442 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:17,568 IAN CRITCHLEY: should have for you. 443 00:17:17,569 --> 00:17:19,489 PRODUCER: For you, do the IICSA recommendations on online 444 00:17:19,490 --> 00:17:21,499 PRODUCER: safety go far enough? 445 00:17:21,500 --> 00:17:24,979 IAN CRITCHLEY: I think IICSA really identified 446 00:17:24,980 --> 00:17:27,889 IAN CRITCHLEY: the critical issues here for us all, 447 00:17:27,890 --> 00:17:29,719 IAN CRITCHLEY: working together, that young people are 448 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:33,739 IAN CRITCHLEY: facing now in an ever changing society. 449 00:17:33,740 --> 00:17:36,389 IAN CRITCHLEY: So I think it fulfilled its role in making 450 00:17:36,390 --> 00:17:38,939 IAN CRITCHLEY: the recommendations and dovetailing across 451 00:17:38,940 --> 00:17:41,579 IAN CRITCHLEY: into the Online Safety Bill, without 452 00:17:41,580 --> 00:17:44,939 IAN CRITCHLEY: seeking to try and duplicate or replicate 453 00:17:44,940 --> 00:17:47,139 IAN CRITCHLEY: what needs to be coming in law. 454 00:17:47,140 --> 00:17:50,219 IAN CRITCHLEY: And it's that aspect that is absolutely 455 00:17:50,220 --> 00:17:52,348 IAN CRITCHLEY: crucial to make sure that companies are 456 00:17:54,150 --> 00:17:56,647 IAN CRITCHLEY: able to prevent, first of all, the loading 457 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,599 IAN CRITCHLEY: of child abuse material onto their 458 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:02,579 IAN CRITCHLEY: platforms that they make millions and 459 00:18:02,580 --> 00:18:03,580 IAN CRITCHLEY: billions of pounds from. 460 00:18:04,350 --> 00:18:06,299 IAN CRITCHLEY: We're not talking just about, you know, 461 00:18:06,300 --> 00:18:07,679 IAN CRITCHLEY: we're not talking about dark web here. 462 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:10,379 IAN CRITCHLEY: We are talking three clicks. 463 00:18:10,380 --> 00:18:12,149 IAN CRITCHLEY: Three clicks — which again was highlighted 464 00:18:12,150 --> 00:18:14,819 IAN CRITCHLEY: in the report — to access child abuse 465 00:18:14,820 --> 00:18:16,199 IAN CRITCHLEY: material. 466 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:18,899 IAN CRITCHLEY: So first of all, stop it being on their 467 00:18:18,900 --> 00:18:20,519 IAN CRITCHLEY: platforms in the first place. 468 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:23,939 IAN CRITCHLEY: Secondly, a legal duty to 469 00:18:23,940 --> 00:18:26,040 IAN CRITCHLEY: identify and report to 470 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:29,579 IAN CRITCHLEY: the authorities once it's there. 471 00:18:29,580 --> 00:18:32,279 IAN CRITCHLEY: And thirdly, to remove it from their 472 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:34,829 IAN CRITCHLEY: platforms, as well. We do have, to some 473 00:18:34,830 --> 00:18:37,379 IAN CRITCHLEY: extent, good engagement with industry where 474 00:18:37,380 --> 00:18:38,999 IAN CRITCHLEY: this happens, particularly with partnerships 475 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:40,799 IAN CRITCHLEY: with, for example, the Internet Watch 476 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:42,922 IAN CRITCHLEY: Foundation, in order to be able to report 477 00:18:44,910 --> 00:18:46,701 IAN CRITCHLEY: and remove this material. But it is... 478 00:18:46,702 --> 00:18:49,649 IAN CRITCHLEY: We are talking about the tip of an iceberg 479 00:18:49,650 --> 00:18:52,259 IAN CRITCHLEY: when we consider the extent of offending 480 00:18:52,260 --> 00:18:54,569 IAN CRITCHLEY: that I've outlined already. 481 00:18:54,570 --> 00:18:57,719 IAN CRITCHLEY: And, no matter what is done — by 482 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:00,989 IAN CRITCHLEY: parents, carers, by law enforcement 483 00:19:00,990 --> 00:19:04,079 IAN CRITCHLEY: — until industry plays its role, not 484 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:05,339 IAN CRITCHLEY: because they're forced to, because there are 485 00:19:05,340 --> 00:19:06,959 IAN CRITCHLEY: legal duties. Because for me, they should 486 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,959 IAN CRITCHLEY: have a moral duty to make sure that 487 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:12,179 IAN CRITCHLEY: those people who are using their platforms, 488 00:19:12,180 --> 00:19:14,919 IAN CRITCHLEY: that they have created these communities, 489 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:18,029 IAN CRITCHLEY: they have a moral duty to keep those 490 00:19:18,030 --> 00:19:20,099 IAN CRITCHLEY: communities safe. 491 00:19:20,100 --> 00:19:21,959 IAN CRITCHLEY: And if they don't, frankly, then they'll 492 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:23,849 IAN CRITCHLEY: find that people will walk away, quite 493 00:19:23,850 --> 00:19:26,849 IAN CRITCHLEY: rightly, from that. 494 00:19:26,850 --> 00:19:29,879 IAN CRITCHLEY: I believe this area, the online area, 495 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:31,529 IAN CRITCHLEY: also much wider than we're talking about 496 00:19:31,530 --> 00:19:33,299 IAN CRITCHLEY: child abuse, because of course, we've seen 497 00:19:33,300 --> 00:19:35,939 IAN CRITCHLEY: children access to other harmful material. 498 00:19:35,940 --> 00:19:37,829 IAN CRITCHLEY: We've seen the impact on suicides in some 499 00:19:37,830 --> 00:19:40,139 IAN CRITCHLEY: really dreadful cases that have been 500 00:19:40,140 --> 00:19:41,999 IAN CRITCHLEY: highlighted in the news and inquests that 501 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,059 IAN CRITCHLEY: have taken place as a result of the 502 00:19:45,060 --> 00:19:47,069 IAN CRITCHLEY: impact of harmful material that young 503 00:19:47,070 --> 00:19:48,389 IAN CRITCHLEY: people have seen. 504 00:19:48,390 --> 00:19:50,069 IAN CRITCHLEY: But I genuinely feel this is one of the 505 00:19:50,070 --> 00:19:52,619 IAN CRITCHLEY: biggest public health issues facing 506 00:19:52,620 --> 00:19:55,979 IAN CRITCHLEY: children. I'm really grateful for 507 00:19:55,980 --> 00:19:58,919 IAN CRITCHLEY: the panel within IICSA making this 508 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:01,139 IAN CRITCHLEY: area really prominent. 509 00:20:01,140 --> 00:20:03,029 IAN CRITCHLEY: I also believe it will feature prominently 510 00:20:03,030 --> 00:20:04,538 IAN CRITCHLEY: in the rewrite of Working Together 511 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:08,789 IAN CRITCHLEY: that is ongoing and being consulted with at 512 00:20:08,790 --> 00:20:10,379 IAN CRITCHLEY: this moment in time. 513 00:20:10,380 --> 00:20:13,019 IAN CRITCHLEY: I don't think at this moment partners 514 00:20:13,020 --> 00:20:15,959 IAN CRITCHLEY: consider the threats around online 515 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:17,939 IAN CRITCHLEY: probably quite as much as we do in terms of 516 00:20:17,940 --> 00:20:20,399 IAN CRITCHLEY: some more traditional threats around child 517 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,919 IAN CRITCHLEY: protection. But I think that is starting to 518 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:24,659 IAN CRITCHLEY: change. And we take a responsibility for 519 00:20:24,660 --> 00:20:25,349 IAN CRITCHLEY: that. 520 00:20:25,350 --> 00:20:27,449 PRODUCER: And you mentioned the Online Safety Bill 521 00:20:27,450 --> 00:20:30,029 PRODUCER: earlier. Does this piece of legislation do 522 00:20:30,030 --> 00:20:31,799 PRODUCER: enough to address CSA? 523 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,139 PRODUCER: There are concerns around the ability to enforce 524 00:20:34,140 --> 00:20:37,019 PRODUCER: the proposals laid out in a technology space 525 00:20:37,020 --> 00:20:40,079 PRODUCER: where end-to-end encryption exists, for example. 526 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:41,669 IAN CRITCHLEY: I do believe it's an effective piece of 527 00:20:41,670 --> 00:20:43,709 IAN CRITCHLEY: legislation. Clearly it's only effective 528 00:20:43,710 --> 00:20:46,349 IAN CRITCHLEY: subject to how then it is implemented and 529 00:20:46,350 --> 00:20:48,321 IAN CRITCHLEY: how it is regulated. And Ofcom are clearly 530 00:20:48,322 --> 00:20:50,759 IAN CRITCHLEY: the main regulatory body in this regard. 531 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,049 IAN CRITCHLEY: The main duty in relation to child sexual 532 00:20:53,050 --> 00:20:56,219 IAN CRITCHLEY: abuse is the necessity to prevent, 533 00:20:56,220 --> 00:20:58,182 IAN CRITCHLEY: report and remove around 534 00:20:59,670 --> 00:21:02,489 IAN CRITCHLEY: it. I think the first year or two will 535 00:21:02,490 --> 00:21:06,059 IAN CRITCHLEY: require companies to outline 536 00:21:06,060 --> 00:21:08,879 IAN CRITCHLEY: to Ofcom how they are going to mitigate and 537 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:10,589 IAN CRITCHLEY: manage that risk of harm. 538 00:21:10,590 --> 00:21:13,499 IAN CRITCHLEY: They will have a specific duty around risk 539 00:21:13,500 --> 00:21:15,269 IAN CRITCHLEY: assessments. They will have to demonstrate 540 00:21:15,270 --> 00:21:17,909 IAN CRITCHLEY: how they are proactively identifying child 541 00:21:17,910 --> 00:21:19,739 IAN CRITCHLEY: sexual abuse material and how they are 542 00:21:19,740 --> 00:21:22,739 IAN CRITCHLEY: seeking to take reasonable steps 543 00:21:22,740 --> 00:21:24,689 IAN CRITCHLEY: with technology to prevent it in the first 544 00:21:24,690 --> 00:21:25,979 IAN CRITCHLEY: place. And I think that's going to be 545 00:21:25,980 --> 00:21:28,949 IAN CRITCHLEY: absolutely the key in terms of what and who 546 00:21:28,950 --> 00:21:31,619 IAN CRITCHLEY: defines what reasonable steps are being 547 00:21:31,620 --> 00:21:33,839 IAN CRITCHLEY: used to prevent it. 548 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,269 IAN CRITCHLEY: I am concerned around the impact of 549 00:21:36,270 --> 00:21:37,559 IAN CRITCHLEY: end-to-end encryption. 550 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:41,369 IAN CRITCHLEY: That seems to separate the need 551 00:21:41,370 --> 00:21:44,189 IAN CRITCHLEY: and the societal need to protect children, 552 00:21:44,190 --> 00:21:46,739 IAN CRITCHLEY: being pitched against a privacy argument. 553 00:21:46,740 --> 00:21:48,689 IAN CRITCHLEY: This isn't the privacy issue. 554 00:21:48,690 --> 00:21:52,049 IAN CRITCHLEY: And I totally understand the necessity for 555 00:21:52,050 --> 00:21:54,509 IAN CRITCHLEY: privacy for young people, but there are 556 00:21:54,510 --> 00:21:57,569 IAN CRITCHLEY: sufficient technical, enablers 557 00:21:57,570 --> 00:22:00,899 IAN CRITCHLEY: to allow privacy and contact between 558 00:22:00,900 --> 00:22:04,139 IAN CRITCHLEY: consenting people to that that protects 559 00:22:04,140 --> 00:22:06,959 IAN CRITCHLEY: children and identifies offenders. 560 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:08,669 IAN CRITCHLEY: It's unfortunate that the language is being 561 00:22:08,670 --> 00:22:11,789 IAN CRITCHLEY: used to try and conflict the two. 562 00:22:11,790 --> 00:22:13,829 IAN CRITCHLEY: All of us have a duty to protect and 563 00:22:13,830 --> 00:22:15,209 IAN CRITCHLEY: safeguard children. 564 00:22:15,210 --> 00:22:17,399 IAN CRITCHLEY: There will be a legal duty to do that for 565 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,159 IAN CRITCHLEY: the companies. They cannot water that down, 566 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,289 IAN CRITCHLEY: or should not be able to water that down, 567 00:22:22,290 --> 00:22:23,549 IAN CRITCHLEY: by saying, "well, we've brought end-to-end 568 00:22:23,550 --> 00:22:25,349 IAN CRITCHLEY: encryption in and therefore we can't see 569 00:22:25,350 --> 00:22:26,879 IAN CRITCHLEY: what's going on on our platforms. Therefore, 570 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:28,799 IAN CRITCHLEY: how can we prevent it or how can we report 571 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:30,389 IAN CRITCHLEY: it or remove it?" They have the technical 572 00:22:30,390 --> 00:22:33,329 IAN CRITCHLEY: capabilities to ensure there is 573 00:22:33,330 --> 00:22:36,069 IAN CRITCHLEY: encryption of message yet to be able to 574 00:22:36,070 --> 00:22:39,519 IAN CRITCHLEY: identify, report and remove 575 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:41,739 IAN CRITCHLEY: indecent images of children. 576 00:22:41,740 --> 00:22:44,529 IAN CRITCHLEY: That is a must. That is my concern. 577 00:22:44,530 --> 00:22:46,599 IAN CRITCHLEY: I think my other concern is the speed in 578 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:48,369 IAN CRITCHLEY: which we move from implementation and 579 00:22:48,370 --> 00:22:50,479 IAN CRITCHLEY: enactment to be able to identify 580 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:52,179 IAN CRITCHLEY: non-compliance around it. 581 00:22:52,180 --> 00:22:55,359 IAN CRITCHLEY: So, the duty for companies to manage 582 00:22:55,360 --> 00:22:56,949 IAN CRITCHLEY: and mitigate risk, to complete risk 583 00:22:56,950 --> 00:22:59,079 IAN CRITCHLEY: assessments, to demonstrate what they're 584 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,689 IAN CRITCHLEY: doing, and then for Ofcom to assess that 585 00:23:01,690 --> 00:23:03,849 IAN CRITCHLEY: and then determine and identify where there 586 00:23:03,850 --> 00:23:06,339 IAN CRITCHLEY: is non-compliance; I'm just concerned about 587 00:23:06,340 --> 00:23:08,199 IAN CRITCHLEY: the time scale. I think this area is moving 588 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,299 IAN CRITCHLEY: so quick. We're already talking about— it's 589 00:23:10,300 --> 00:23:11,769 IAN CRITCHLEY: not something in the future when we're talking 590 00:23:11,770 --> 00:23:14,079 IAN CRITCHLEY: about artificial intelligence and virtual 591 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:15,759 IAN CRITCHLEY: reality. It's already here. 592 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,129 IAN CRITCHLEY: We're already seeing child sexual abuse 593 00:23:18,130 --> 00:23:20,379 IAN CRITCHLEY: material within the metaverse. 594 00:23:20,380 --> 00:23:23,409 IAN CRITCHLEY: We are dealing with a huge increase in what 595 00:23:23,410 --> 00:23:25,509 IAN CRITCHLEY: will start to become an even bigger 596 00:23:25,510 --> 00:23:28,659 IAN CRITCHLEY: increase of demand in that area. 597 00:23:28,660 --> 00:23:30,579 IAN CRITCHLEY: And ultimately, where should we really be 598 00:23:30,580 --> 00:23:32,139 IAN CRITCHLEY: in this area? We should be preventing it 599 00:23:32,140 --> 00:23:33,519 IAN CRITCHLEY: rather than having to respond to it in the 600 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,129 IAN CRITCHLEY: first place. I often will get and accept 601 00:23:36,130 --> 00:23:37,779 IAN CRITCHLEY: and acknowledge the need for law enforcement 602 00:23:37,780 --> 00:23:39,309 IAN CRITCHLEY: to step forward. We've worked with Her 603 00:23:39,310 --> 00:23:41,229 IAN CRITCHLEY: Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary and 604 00:23:41,230 --> 00:23:42,999 IAN CRITCHLEY: Fire and Rescue Service to take forward 605 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:44,469 IAN CRITCHLEY: recommendations for policing, so I 606 00:23:44,470 --> 00:23:46,169 IAN CRITCHLEY: acknowledge and take responsibility, as the 607 00:23:46,170 --> 00:23:47,859 IAN CRITCHLEY: national lead, that policing needs to do 608 00:23:47,860 --> 00:23:49,329 IAN CRITCHLEY: much more. 609 00:23:49,330 --> 00:23:51,339 IAN CRITCHLEY: But being able to predict the demand that 610 00:23:51,340 --> 00:23:52,959 IAN CRITCHLEY: we've got here, being able to deal with 611 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:54,549 IAN CRITCHLEY: this, as well as many of the things that 612 00:23:54,550 --> 00:23:56,949 IAN CRITCHLEY: policing needs to do, being able to 613 00:23:56,950 --> 00:23:59,169 IAN CRITCHLEY: concentrate on those who are committing the 614 00:23:59,170 --> 00:24:02,019 IAN CRITCHLEY: highest level of harm will best be done if 615 00:24:02,020 --> 00:24:04,329 IAN CRITCHLEY: industry prevents such material being on 616 00:24:04,330 --> 00:24:05,829 IAN CRITCHLEY: their platforms in the first place. 617 00:24:05,830 --> 00:24:07,359 IAN CRITCHLEY: It will still be there; people will still 618 00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:09,219 IAN CRITCHLEY: find their way to the dark web and other 619 00:24:09,220 --> 00:24:11,529 IAN CRITCHLEY: areas but absolutely it will make it safer 620 00:24:11,530 --> 00:24:14,319 IAN CRITCHLEY: for children. It will mean that it reduces 621 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,109 IAN CRITCHLEY: volume demand on us, and it will mean we 622 00:24:17,110 --> 00:24:19,149 IAN CRITCHLEY: can concentrate on those who are committing 623 00:24:19,150 --> 00:24:22,029 IAN CRITCHLEY: the highest level of harm. 624 00:24:22,030 --> 00:24:24,249 IAN CRITCHLEY: It's a real challenge, but one in which we 625 00:24:24,250 --> 00:24:26,289 IAN CRITCHLEY: must all strive to make sure that that 626 00:24:26,290 --> 00:24:29,229 IAN CRITCHLEY: community, that online community, is 627 00:24:29,230 --> 00:24:32,289 IAN CRITCHLEY: as safe as we would want our streets and 628 00:24:32,290 --> 00:24:33,290 IAN CRITCHLEY: our neighbourhoods to be. 629 00:24:37,180 --> 00:24:41,019 PRODUCER: Thanks to Ian Critchley and Susie Hargreaves. 630 00:24:41,020 --> 00:24:42,849 PRODUCER: You can find a link to the Internet Watch 631 00:24:42,850 --> 00:24:45,999 PRODUCER: Foundation's latest annual report in the podcast 632 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:47,000 PRODUCER: show notes. 633 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,019 PRODUCER: For more online safety advice, visit 634 00:24:50,020 --> 00:24:51,020 PRODUCER: nspcc.org.uk/onlinesafety. 635 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,729 PRODUCER: In the next episode of Recommendations for 636 00:24:57,730 --> 00:25:01,719 PRODUCER: Change, we'll be looking at justice and redress. 637 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:03,879 PRODUCER: What can be done to improve victims and 638 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,819 PRODUCER: survivors experiences of the criminal justice 639 00:25:06,820 --> 00:25:07,820 PRODUCER: system? 640 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:10,629 PRODUCER: If you've been affected by any of the issues 641 00:25:10,630 --> 00:25:13,209 PRODUCER: raised in this podcast, you can reach out to the 642 00:25:13,210 --> 00:25:16,239 PRODUCER: NSPCC Helpline for support, call 643 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:17,377 PRODUCER: 0808 800 5000 644 00:25:19,330 --> 00:25:22,930 PRODUCER: or email help@nspcc.org.uk. 645 00:25:23,980 --> 00:25:28,029 PRODUCER: This podcast series was produced in Autumn 2023. 646 00:25:28,030 --> 00:25:30,009 PRODUCER: All information was correct at the time of 647 00:25:30,010 --> 00:25:32,499 PRODUCER: recording, but the world of child protection is 648 00:25:32,500 --> 00:25:33,500 PRODUCER: ever-changing. 649 00:25:33,910 --> 00:25:36,729 PRODUCER: To stay up to date, visit the NSPCC Learning 650 00:25:36,730 --> 00:25:41,859 PRODUCER: website at nspcc.org.uk/learning.