PRODUCER: Please note this podcast contains mention of
PRODUCER: child sexual abuse.
PRODUCER: In 2015, the Independent Inquiry into Child
PRODUCER: Sexual Abuse was set up to investigate where
PRODUCER: institutions failed to protect children in their
PRODUCER: care.
PRODUCER: The inquiry's final report, published in October
PRODUCER: 2022, laid out a set of powerful recommendations
PRODUCER: to address past failings and protect future
PRODUCER: generations of children from abuse.
PRODUCER: Recommendations for Change is a five part
PRODUCER: podcast series from NSPCC Learning, examining
PRODUCER: why these recommendations are needed, how
PRODUCER: they'll work if implemented, and what impact
PRODUCER: they will have on the prevention of child sexual
PRODUCER: abuse.
PRODUCER: Episode four: online safety.
PRODUCER: Being online is an integral part of children and
PRODUCER: young people's lives, but it can expose them to
PRODUCER: risks, including sexual abuse.
PRODUCER: The past five years has seen a proliferation in
PRODUCER: child sexual abuse (CSA) material online
PRODUCER: data from the Internet Watch Foundation, the UK
PRODUCER: hotline for reporting and removing online child
PRODUCER: sexual abuse material, shows that the number of
PRODUCER: reports of web pages assessed as containing CSA
PRODUCER: increased from 78,000 in 2017
PRODUCER: to 255,000 in
PRODUCER: 2022.
PRODUCER: IICSA published an investigation report into the
PRODUCER: growing problem of online-facilitated CSA
PRODUCER: in March 2020.
PRODUCER: It investigated the response of law enforcement,
PRODUCER: industry and government to three types of
PRODUCER: offending: indecent images of children offences,
PRODUCER: the grooming of a child, and live streaming of
PRODUCER: child sexual abuse.
PRODUCER: It found that whilst the last five years have
PRODUCER: seen improvements in the responses to these
PRODUCER: issues, there was no evidence to suggest a
PRODUCER: decrease in online child sexual abuse offences
PRODUCER: and, quote, "law enforcement is struggling
PRODUCER: to keep pace".
PRODUCER: A step forward was made in October 2023
PRODUCER: with the passing of the Online Safety Act, which
PRODUCER: gives online service providers new legal
PRODUCER: responsibilities to keep children safe on their
PRODUCER: platforms. However, there is still much work
PRODUCER: that needs to be done in order to eradicate
PRODUCER: child sexual abuse online.
PRODUCER: In this episode, we will be exploring the scale
PRODUCER: of the online abuse problem and how the
PRODUCER: recommendations seek to tackle the issue.
PRODUCER: Susie Hargreaves is the Chief Executive of the
PRODUCER: Internet Watch Foundation.
PRODUCER: We spoke to Susie about the importance of
PRODUCER: implementing strong online protections for
PRODUCER: children in October 2023, a couple
PRODUCER: of weeks before the Online Safety Act was signed
PRODUCER: into law.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: The internet is a really positive space,
SUSIE HARGREAVES: and of course, children get so much out
SUSIE HARGREAVES: of use of the internet, their
SUSIE HARGREAVES: entertainment, their social networking,
SUSIE HARGREAVES: their education. But unfortunately it
SUSIE HARGREAVES: has a really dark side as well, which
SUSIE HARGREAVES: is that children are very easily
SUSIE HARGREAVES: exploited on the internet, and, without
SUSIE HARGREAVES: protections being put in place, there
SUSIE HARGREAVES: will always be people who will try and
SUSIE HARGREAVES: take advantage of the most vulnerable
SUSIE HARGREAVES: people in society.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: So, we would always say, you know, it's
SUSIE HARGREAVES: not that technology is bad, it's not
SUSIE HARGREAVES: that the internet is bad, but the
SUSIE HARGREAVES: reality is that there is a lot of very,
SUSIE HARGREAVES: very bad stuff on the internet, and we
SUSIE HARGREAVES: need to do everything we can to keep our
SUSIE HARGREAVES: children safe.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: Now, the IWF, the area I work with, we
SUSIE HARGREAVES: deal with illegal content, so we're
SUSIE HARGREAVES: dealing with the very worst of the
SUSIE HARGREAVES: content. So this is illegal content.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: It's illegal for everybody.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: It's illegal to make, to share,
SUSIE HARGREAVES: to distribute and to
SUSIE HARGREAVES: produce. So, you know, basically we need
SUSIE HARGREAVES: to make sure that nobody has access to
SUSIE HARGREAVES: this content. But of course, looking at
SUSIE HARGREAVES: this content is not the worst thing.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: The worst thing is that actually
SUSIE HARGREAVES: children are sexually abused in the
SUSIE HARGREAVES: making of this content. And in fact,
SUSIE HARGREAVES: every single time somebody looks at that
SUSIE HARGREAVES: content, that child is revictimised,
SUSIE HARGREAVES: their abuse reoccurs,
SUSIE HARGREAVES: and it's not a victimless crime.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: So what we need to do is do everything
SUSIE HARGREAVES: we can to put safety protections around
SUSIE HARGREAVES: children online so that this really
SUSIE HARGREAVES: hideous, heinous crime doesn't happen
SUSIE HARGREAVES: because children carry it with them for
SUSIE HARGREAVES: the rest of their lives.
PRODUCER: What does the IICSA final report say about the
PRODUCER: challenge presented by online-facilitated child
PRODUCER: sexual abuse?
SUSIE HARGREAVES: Well, the IICSA final report made a
SUSIE HARGREAVES: number of recommendations.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: Obviously only a few of them were
SUSIE HARGREAVES: related to online child sexual abuse.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: We were privileged enough to be
SUSIE HARGREAVES: co-participants in the IICSA inquiry on
SUSIE HARGREAVES: the online space, and it was very clear
SUSIE HARGREAVES: that we needed to put some specific
SUSIE HARGREAVES: protections in place for children.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: Of course, this was aligned to what was
SUSIE HARGREAVES: happening at that time. The Online
SUSIE HARGREAVES: Safety Bill was going through Parliament
SUSIE HARGREAVES: at the time, and actually IICSA was
SUSIE HARGREAVES: taking that into account.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: So specifically on the online space, it
SUSIE HARGREAVES: made a number of recommendations.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: The first, which totally relates to our
SUSIE HARGREAVES: area of work, was the need to screen
SUSIE HARGREAVES: for child sexual abuse.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: So instead of sort of just relying on
SUSIE HARGREAVES: people might do it, companies might do
SUSIE HARGREAVES: it. There would then be, a commitment
SUSIE HARGREAVES: from companies to have to
SUSIE HARGREAVES: pre-screen/screen to ensure that child
SUSIE HARGREAVES: sexual abuse did not go onto their
SUSIE HARGREAVES: platforms using a range of technologies
SUSIE HARGREAVES: to enable them to do that.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: And that was really important for us.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: The second was the age verification
SUSIE HARGREAVES: side. So whilst the IWF is not
SUSIE HARGREAVES: an organisation that deals with
SUSIE HARGREAVES: inappropriate content that children are
SUSIE HARGREAVES: accessing, we are also, co-directors
SUSIE HARGREAVES: of the UK's Safer Internet Centre, so
SUSIE HARGREAVES: obviously we care very, very much about
SUSIE HARGREAVES: children's access to that material.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: So we want to ensure that children do
SUSIE HARGREAVES: not have access to pornography.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: We also want to ensure that children who
SUSIE HARGREAVES: are under 13 don't have access
SUSIE HARGREAVES: to social media.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: So we really want to see robust
SUSIE HARGREAVES: age verification and age appropriate
SUSIE HARGREAVES: tools put in place on the online safety
SUSIE HARGREAVES: bill. And the third was the CSE/A, the
SUSIE HARGREAVES: Child Sexual Exploitation and Abuse Code
SUSIE HARGREAVES: of practice, which of course, is, under
SUSIE HARGREAVES: the Online Safety Bill.
PRODUCER: You mentioned the Online Safety Bill, which is
PRODUCER: soon to be given royal assent and will become
PRODUCER: the Online Safety Act.
PRODUCER: How does the Online Safety Act dovetail with the
PRODUCER: final recommendations?
SUSIE HARGREAVES: Now, prior to the, bill going through
SUSIE HARGREAVES: in relation to online child sexual
SUSIE HARGREAVES: abuse, companies worked on a voluntary
SUSIE HARGREAVES: basis. So they were
SUSIE HARGREAVES: obliged kind of morally to
SUSIE HARGREAVES: do what they could to keep their
SUSIE HARGREAVES: platforms clean of child sexual abuse,
SUSIE HARGREAVES: or to do as much as they possibly could
SUSIE HARGREAVES: to ensure that it didn't get loaded onto
SUSIE HARGREAVES: their platforms, but there was no kind
SUSIE HARGREAVES: of transparency or accountability around
SUSIE HARGREAVES: that. Now, what's really important about
SUSIE HARGREAVES: the Online Safety Bill is that will no
SUSIE HARGREAVES: longer be a voluntary thing, but they
SUSIE HARGREAVES: will actually have to legally comply
SUSIE HARGREAVES: with that. So they will have to
SUSIE HARGREAVES: demonstrate, how they are doing
SUSIE HARGREAVES: the best they can to keep their
SUSIE HARGREAVES: platforms as clean as possible.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: And that will be to ensure that there
SUSIE HARGREAVES: are robust online safety tools,
SUSIE HARGREAVES: that there are robust tech solutions.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: So we provide a number
SUSIE HARGREAVES: of tech solutions to companies.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: So when we talk about screening
SUSIE HARGREAVES: platforms, what we're talking about is
SUSIE HARGREAVES: we provide things like a hash list,
SUSIE HARGREAVES: which is a list of digital fingerprints
SUSIE HARGREAVES: of known child sexual abuse images — we
SUSIE HARGREAVES: currently have about 1.2 million of
SUSIE HARGREAVES: these — and companies will deploy
SUSIE HARGREAVES: that across their platform to stop
SUSIE HARGREAVES: anybody uploading a duplicate image.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: If it has a match, it won't go onto the
SUSIE HARGREAVES: platform. So that's really important so
SUSIE HARGREAVES: that that content doesn't get onto the
SUSIE HARGREAVES: platform to begin with.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: We also provide things like a blocking
SUSIE HARGREAVES: list, a URL list, a list of web pages
SUSIE HARGREAVES: that currently contain child sexual
SUSIE HARGREAVES: abuse and haven't been removed from the
SUSIE HARGREAVES: internet yet. They will be obliged to
SUSIE HARGREAVES: make sure that people can't access that
SUSIE HARGREAVES: material.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: It's really important that these
SUSIE HARGREAVES: elements of the IICSA report, which
SUSIE HARGREAVES: raised awareness of the fact that that a
SUSIE HARGREAVES: lot of companies weren't doing that,
SUSIE HARGREAVES: they now will be legally obliged to do
SUSIE HARGREAVES: that. The other thing that's important
SUSIE HARGREAVES: to say in relation to how the Online
SUSIE HARGREAVES: Safety Act, as it will be, in a couple
SUSIE HARGREAVES: of weeks, dovetails with the IICSA final
SUSIE HARGREAVES: report, is an awful lot of the detail
SUSIE HARGREAVES: has yet to be worked through.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: So, whilst we have some fundamental
SUSIE HARGREAVES: principles in place around the Online
SUSIE HARGREAVES: Safety Act, the actual operational side
SUSIE HARGREAVES: is really still to play for.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: So we need to ensure that when the
SUSIE HARGREAVES: consultation comes out, and they'll be
SUSIE HARGREAVES: dealing with illegal material in the
SUSIE HARGREAVES: first instance, which is the area we
SUSIE HARGREAVES: work in, but some of the sort of
SUSIE HARGREAVES: knottier, more difficult questions
SUSIE HARGREAVES: around harmful content and making sure
SUSIE HARGREAVES: that we keep children safe online have
SUSIE HARGREAVES: to be worked through. So it's not a job
SUSIE HARGREAVES: done yet. And that's why it's really
SUSIE HARGREAVES: important to keep the pressure on about
SUSIE HARGREAVES: the IICSA recommendations, because we
SUSIE HARGREAVES: are all, across the child protection
SUSIE HARGREAVES: spectrum, online and offline, we're
SUSIE HARGREAVES: working together to keep people focused
SUSIE HARGREAVES: on these are our recommendation.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: These are the things we want to see.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: And we can't just sit there and be
SUSIE HARGREAVES: complacent and think, well, the Online
SUSIE HARGREAVES: Safety Bill is done and dusted, so
SUSIE HARGREAVES: that's going to cover everything.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: So there's still a lot of work to do.
PRODUCER: And finally, what can professionals working with
PRODUCER: children and young people do to keep them safe
PRODUCER: online?
SUSIE HARGREAVES: Well, one of the things we would always
SUSIE HARGREAVES: say about the ways in which
SUSIE HARGREAVES: professionals working with children and
SUSIE HARGREAVES: young people can help them keep safe
SUSIE HARGREAVES: online is that it's not just a one
SUSIE HARGREAVES: thing is the solution.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: You know, actually you have to take a
SUSIE HARGREAVES: joint approach. So, we work in
SUSIE HARGREAVES: technology. Now technology is part of
SUSIE HARGREAVES: the solution. It's a major part of the
SUSIE HARGREAVES: solution. And the internet companies
SUSIE HARGREAVES: have got a lot more to do to ensure that
SUSIE HARGREAVES: they keep children safe online.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: But that's not the whole picture.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: We also need to have proper legislative
SUSIE HARGREAVES: and law enforcement support.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: Hopefully this will be resolved through
SUSIE HARGREAVES: the Online Safety Bill.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: But also we need a really strong
SUSIE HARGREAVES: education and awareness programme.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: And that's why it's really important
SUSIE HARGREAVES: that a lot of us work together.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: So the IWF, the organisation I lead,
SUSIE HARGREAVES: we are very much dealing with technical
SUSIE HARGREAVES: solutions, but it's really important we
SUSIE HARGREAVES: work with organisations like the NSPCC,
SUSIE HARGREAVES: because we don't deal directly with
SUSIE HARGREAVES: children, we don't have that level of
SUSIE HARGREAVES: expertise, but we can share our
SUSIE HARGREAVES: knowledge between us. And that's really
SUSIE HARGREAVES: important. And a great example of that
SUSIE HARGREAVES: is that we run a project called Report
SUSIE HARGREAVES: Remove together, where we enable young
SUSIE HARGREAVES: people to self-refer nudes of themselves
SUSIE HARGREAVES: for us to get them removed, to stop them
SUSIE HARGREAVES: being criminalised and to get those
SUSIE HARGREAVES: taken off the internet. We deal with the
SUSIE HARGREAVES: kind of technical, how do you take it
SUSIE HARGREAVES: down off the internet, and the NSPCC
SUSIE HARGREAVES: deal with the safeguarding aspect, but
SUSIE HARGREAVES: we join together on some of the
SUSIE HARGREAVES: education and awareness around that.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: So I think what's really important is
SUSIE HARGREAVES: that everybody works together and we
SUSIE HARGREAVES: recognise that there isn't a single
SUSIE HARGREAVES: solution to this.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: But the other thing we really feel
SUSIE HARGREAVES: strongly — and I know this is shared
SUSIE HARGREAVES: across the board — that parents and
SUSIE HARGREAVES: carers, they do have a responsibility to
SUSIE HARGREAVES: make sure they do the best to keep
SUSIE HARGREAVES: children safe online.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: And you can't just bury your head in the
SUSIE HARGREAVES: sand on this. So, in the same ways you
SUSIE HARGREAVES: would on any element of children's
SUSIE HARGREAVES: safety, you need to not
SUSIE HARGREAVES: be scared by the internet.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: There's lots of help out there.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: There's lots of resources.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: There's lots of practical know-how
SUSIE HARGREAVES: points to help you keep yourself safe
SUSIE HARGREAVES: online. And one of the things we've
SUSIE HARGREAVES: discovered through the research we've
SUSIE HARGREAVES: done is that, you know, one meaningful
SUSIE HARGREAVES: conversation can make all the
SUSIE HARGREAVES: difference. So it's really important
SUSIE HARGREAVES: that people talk about that.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: So you have to think about and learn
SUSIE HARGREAVES: about platforms that your children are
SUSIE HARGREAVES: on. You have to talk to them about what
SUSIE HARGREAVES: they're doing. You have to set family
SUSIE HARGREAVES: rules and family guidelines that
SUSIE HARGREAVES: everybody sticks to, and you have to
SUSIE HARGREAVES: take a sensible approach to this.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: But I think being scared of the internet
SUSIE HARGREAVES: is not helpful. Let's just all accept
SUSIE HARGREAVES: the internet is a wonderful thing,
SUSIE HARGREAVES: wonderful. But we have a responsibility
SUSIE HARGREAVES: to tackle that really dangerous, unsafe
SUSIE HARGREAVES: element. And if you've got a six- or
SUSIE HARGREAVES: seven-year-old, they really shouldn't be
SUSIE HARGREAVES: in that bedroom on their own with a
SUSIE HARGREAVES: camera-enabled device and an internet
SUSIE HARGREAVES: connection without supervision.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: So don't think just because they're in
SUSIE HARGREAVES: your house that they're safe.
SUSIE HARGREAVES: You have a responsibility to know what
SUSIE HARGREAVES: they're doing. But don't panic because
SUSIE HARGREAVES: the help is out there as well.
PRODUCER: As Susie said earlier, the Online Safety Act
PRODUCER: introduces legal requirements for companies to
PRODUCER: prevent illegal content from appearing on their
PRODUCER: platforms. This includes content depicting,
PRODUCER: promoting or facilitating child sexual abuse.
PRODUCER: If age inappropriate content, such as
PRODUCER: pornography, is present on a platform, companies
PRODUCER: must also use age verification tools to prevent
PRODUCER: children from accessing this content.
PRODUCER: This can be seen as a fulfilment of IICSA's
PRODUCER: recommendations on online safety.
PRODUCER: Recommendation 12 proposes that providers of
PRODUCER: internet search services and user-to-user
PRODUCER: services pre-screen uploaded content
PRODUCER: for known child sexual abuse material.
PRODUCER: Recommendation 20 proposes that the UK
PRODUCER: government change the law to make sure that
PRODUCER: social media platforms and other companies that
PRODUCER: provide online services introduce better age
PRODUCER: verification measures.
PRODUCER: However, as Susie says, we will have to wait and
PRODUCER: see whether this legislation has the desired
PRODUCER: effect or whether more steps are needed to
PRODUCER: tackle online-facilitated CSA.
PRODUCER: I wanted to find out more about how law
PRODUCER: enforcement responds to online-facilitated child
PRODUCER: sexual abuse, so I spoke to Ian Critchley, the
PRODUCER: National Police Chiefs Council lead for child
PRODUCER: protection.
IAN CRITCHLEY: I genuinely feel this is one of the most
IAN CRITCHLEY: critical areas in society that we are now
IAN CRITCHLEY: now dealing with: the explosion of the
IAN CRITCHLEY: internet. As we know, it's a real positive
IAN CRITCHLEY: with opportunities for us all, and
IAN CRITCHLEY: particularly for young people, but also
IAN CRITCHLEY: brings with it a great threat and challenge
IAN CRITCHLEY: that we must we must address.
IAN CRITCHLEY: And it's that area that I feel that we have
IAN CRITCHLEY: a great responsibility for, both law
IAN CRITCHLEY: enforcement and our partners, parents and
IAN CRITCHLEY: carers — and I'm a parent of three children
IAN CRITCHLEY: myself — but also, most importantly, the
IAN CRITCHLEY: industry and the companies who should take
IAN CRITCHLEY: the greatest responsibility.
IAN CRITCHLEY: The accessibility now to young people,
IAN CRITCHLEY: 12- to 15-year-olds.
IAN CRITCHLEY: And there's a doubling of, since 2011,
IAN CRITCHLEY: of access to smartphones.
IAN CRITCHLEY: So we will be in the 90% now of 12- to
IAN CRITCHLEY: 15-year-olds, but of 8- to 11-year-olds;
IAN CRITCHLEY: we're over 20% now of 8- to 11-year-olds
IAN CRITCHLEY: who have a social media account.
IAN CRITCHLEY: So we must ensure that we protect young
IAN CRITCHLEY: people from harm.
IAN CRITCHLEY: What does that harm look like?
IAN CRITCHLEY: It is of the highest level, from adults
IAN CRITCHLEY: who seek to groom exploit young children
IAN CRITCHLEY: by meeting with them, having facilitated
IAN CRITCHLEY: meetings online, seek to blackmail
IAN CRITCHLEY: them to share further images of themselves.
IAN CRITCHLEY: And we see some of the worst offending that
IAN CRITCHLEY: we know has huge, huge impact for the rest
IAN CRITCHLEY: of children's lives. And clearly, myself,
IAN CRITCHLEY: my colleagues, NCA, other law enforcement,
IAN CRITCHLEY: both in the UK and around the country, are
IAN CRITCHLEY: working tirelessly to identify these
IAN CRITCHLEY: offenders.
IAN CRITCHLEY: We're also seeing a rise in relation to
IAN CRITCHLEY: peer-on-peer offending.
IAN CRITCHLEY: We saw from the Everyone's Invited
IAN CRITCHLEY: campaign, which called out offending
IAN CRITCHLEY: within the school, particularly within the
IAN CRITCHLEY: school environment, of high harm offences
IAN CRITCHLEY: that were being committed between peers
IAN CRITCHLEY: of which there is absolutely criminal
IAN CRITCHLEY: justice route for high harm offending.
IAN CRITCHLEY: But what we also saw was what we say is a
IAN CRITCHLEY: normalisation of behaviour in
IAN CRITCHLEY: this area. So what do I mean by that?
IAN CRITCHLEY: Young people taking imagery of themselves,
IAN CRITCHLEY: self-generated imagery, sharing it with
IAN CRITCHLEY: their partners, consensual partners.
IAN CRITCHLEY: And of course, they might be the partners
IAN CRITCHLEY: at the time but clearly once an image is shared,
IAN CRITCHLEY: it can be lost and therefore used across
IAN CRITCHLEY: the internet in many different ways.
IAN CRITCHLEY: We don't want to criminalise young people
IAN CRITCHLEY: in this area. It's important that we're
IAN CRITCHLEY: able to safeguard and protect them
IAN CRITCHLEY: as well.
IAN CRITCHLEY: And this is just where we are now, clearly,
IAN CRITCHLEY: on top of that, we have a growing
IAN CRITCHLEY: development of artificial intelligence,
IAN CRITCHLEY: children going into what we call the
IAN CRITCHLEY: metaverse as well, young children going
IAN CRITCHLEY: into, you know, social media, gaming,
IAN CRITCHLEY: and not knowing who they are dealing with
IAN CRITCHLEY: or confronting.
IAN CRITCHLEY: So, really important that we take our
IAN CRITCHLEY: responsibilities as law enforcement and
IAN CRITCHLEY: partners, really important as parents and
IAN CRITCHLEY: carers that we have those challenging
IAN CRITCHLEY: conversations — I know how difficult they
IAN CRITCHLEY: are, but we have them — and give trust and
IAN CRITCHLEY: confidence to the young people to engage.
IAN CRITCHLEY: But most importantly, that industry
IAN CRITCHLEY: steps up to the mark, much more so than
IAN CRITCHLEY: it's doing now. And I really welcome the
IAN CRITCHLEY: Online Safety Bill and the impact of that
IAN CRITCHLEY: should have for you.
PRODUCER: For you, do the IICSA recommendations on online
PRODUCER: safety go far enough?
IAN CRITCHLEY: I think IICSA really identified
IAN CRITCHLEY: the critical issues here for us all,
IAN CRITCHLEY: working together, that young people are
IAN CRITCHLEY: facing now in an ever changing society.
IAN CRITCHLEY: So I think it fulfilled its role in making
IAN CRITCHLEY: the recommendations and dovetailing across
IAN CRITCHLEY: into the Online Safety Bill, without
IAN CRITCHLEY: seeking to try and duplicate or replicate
IAN CRITCHLEY: what needs to be coming in law.
IAN CRITCHLEY: And it's that aspect that is absolutely
IAN CRITCHLEY: crucial to make sure that companies are
IAN CRITCHLEY: able to prevent, first of all, the loading
IAN CRITCHLEY: of child abuse material onto their
IAN CRITCHLEY: platforms that they make millions and
IAN CRITCHLEY: billions of pounds from.
IAN CRITCHLEY: We're not talking just about, you know,
IAN CRITCHLEY: we're not talking about dark web here.
IAN CRITCHLEY: We are talking three clicks.
IAN CRITCHLEY: Three clicks — which again was highlighted
IAN CRITCHLEY: in the report — to access child abuse
IAN CRITCHLEY: material.
IAN CRITCHLEY: So first of all, stop it being on their
IAN CRITCHLEY: platforms in the first place.
IAN CRITCHLEY: Secondly, a legal duty to
IAN CRITCHLEY: identify and report to
IAN CRITCHLEY: the authorities once it's there.
IAN CRITCHLEY: And thirdly, to remove it from their
IAN CRITCHLEY: platforms, as well. We do have, to some
IAN CRITCHLEY: extent, good engagement with industry where
IAN CRITCHLEY: this happens, particularly with partnerships
IAN CRITCHLEY: with, for example, the Internet Watch
IAN CRITCHLEY: Foundation, in order to be able to report
IAN CRITCHLEY: and remove this material. But it is...
IAN CRITCHLEY: We are talking about the tip of an iceberg
IAN CRITCHLEY: when we consider the extent of offending
IAN CRITCHLEY: that I've outlined already.
IAN CRITCHLEY: And, no matter what is done — by
IAN CRITCHLEY: parents, carers, by law enforcement
IAN CRITCHLEY: — until industry plays its role, not
IAN CRITCHLEY: because they're forced to, because there are
IAN CRITCHLEY: legal duties. Because for me, they should
IAN CRITCHLEY: have a moral duty to make sure that
IAN CRITCHLEY: those people who are using their platforms,
IAN CRITCHLEY: that they have created these communities,
IAN CRITCHLEY: they have a moral duty to keep those
IAN CRITCHLEY: communities safe.
IAN CRITCHLEY: And if they don't, frankly, then they'll
IAN CRITCHLEY: find that people will walk away, quite
IAN CRITCHLEY: rightly, from that.
IAN CRITCHLEY: I believe this area, the online area,
IAN CRITCHLEY: also much wider than we're talking about
IAN CRITCHLEY: child abuse, because of course, we've seen
IAN CRITCHLEY: children access to other harmful material.
IAN CRITCHLEY: We've seen the impact on suicides in some
IAN CRITCHLEY: really dreadful cases that have been
IAN CRITCHLEY: highlighted in the news and inquests that
IAN CRITCHLEY: have taken place as a result of the
IAN CRITCHLEY: impact of harmful material that young
IAN CRITCHLEY: people have seen.
IAN CRITCHLEY: But I genuinely feel this is one of the
IAN CRITCHLEY: biggest public health issues facing
IAN CRITCHLEY: children. I'm really grateful for
IAN CRITCHLEY: the panel within IICSA making this
IAN CRITCHLEY: area really prominent.
IAN CRITCHLEY: I also believe it will feature prominently
IAN CRITCHLEY: in the rewrite of Working Together
IAN CRITCHLEY: that is ongoing and being consulted with at
IAN CRITCHLEY: this moment in time.
IAN CRITCHLEY: I don't think at this moment partners
IAN CRITCHLEY: consider the threats around online
IAN CRITCHLEY: probably quite as much as we do in terms of
IAN CRITCHLEY: some more traditional threats around child
IAN CRITCHLEY: protection. But I think that is starting to
IAN CRITCHLEY: change. And we take a responsibility for
IAN CRITCHLEY: that.
PRODUCER: And you mentioned the Online Safety Bill
PRODUCER: earlier. Does this piece of legislation do
PRODUCER: enough to address CSA?
PRODUCER: There are concerns around the ability to enforce
PRODUCER: the proposals laid out in a technology space
PRODUCER: where end-to-end encryption exists, for example.
IAN CRITCHLEY: I do believe it's an effective piece of
IAN CRITCHLEY: legislation. Clearly it's only effective
IAN CRITCHLEY: subject to how then it is implemented and
IAN CRITCHLEY: how it is regulated. And Ofcom are clearly
IAN CRITCHLEY: the main regulatory body in this regard.
IAN CRITCHLEY: The main duty in relation to child sexual
IAN CRITCHLEY: abuse is the necessity to prevent,
IAN CRITCHLEY: report and remove around
IAN CRITCHLEY: it. I think the first year or two will
IAN CRITCHLEY: require companies to outline
IAN CRITCHLEY: to Ofcom how they are going to mitigate and
IAN CRITCHLEY: manage that risk of harm.
IAN CRITCHLEY: They will have a specific duty around risk
IAN CRITCHLEY: assessments. They will have to demonstrate
IAN CRITCHLEY: how they are proactively identifying child
IAN CRITCHLEY: sexual abuse material and how they are
IAN CRITCHLEY: seeking to take reasonable steps
IAN CRITCHLEY: with technology to prevent it in the first
IAN CRITCHLEY: place. And I think that's going to be
IAN CRITCHLEY: absolutely the key in terms of what and who
IAN CRITCHLEY: defines what reasonable steps are being
IAN CRITCHLEY: used to prevent it.
IAN CRITCHLEY: I am concerned around the impact of
IAN CRITCHLEY: end-to-end encryption.
IAN CRITCHLEY: That seems to separate the need
IAN CRITCHLEY: and the societal need to protect children,
IAN CRITCHLEY: being pitched against a privacy argument.
IAN CRITCHLEY: This isn't the privacy issue.
IAN CRITCHLEY: And I totally understand the necessity for
IAN CRITCHLEY: privacy for young people, but there are
IAN CRITCHLEY: sufficient technical, enablers
IAN CRITCHLEY: to allow privacy and contact between
IAN CRITCHLEY: consenting people to that that protects
IAN CRITCHLEY: children and identifies offenders.
IAN CRITCHLEY: It's unfortunate that the language is being
IAN CRITCHLEY: used to try and conflict the two.
IAN CRITCHLEY: All of us have a duty to protect and
IAN CRITCHLEY: safeguard children.
IAN CRITCHLEY: There will be a legal duty to do that for
IAN CRITCHLEY: the companies. They cannot water that down,
IAN CRITCHLEY: or should not be able to water that down,
IAN CRITCHLEY: by saying, "well, we've brought end-to-end
IAN CRITCHLEY: encryption in and therefore we can't see
IAN CRITCHLEY: what's going on on our platforms. Therefore,
IAN CRITCHLEY: how can we prevent it or how can we report
IAN CRITCHLEY: it or remove it?" They have the technical
IAN CRITCHLEY: capabilities to ensure there is
IAN CRITCHLEY: encryption of message yet to be able to
IAN CRITCHLEY: identify, report and remove
IAN CRITCHLEY: indecent images of children.
IAN CRITCHLEY: That is a must. That is my concern.
IAN CRITCHLEY: I think my other concern is the speed in
IAN CRITCHLEY: which we move from implementation and
IAN CRITCHLEY: enactment to be able to identify
IAN CRITCHLEY: non-compliance around it.
IAN CRITCHLEY: So, the duty for companies to manage
IAN CRITCHLEY: and mitigate risk, to complete risk
IAN CRITCHLEY: assessments, to demonstrate what they're
IAN CRITCHLEY: doing, and then for Ofcom to assess that
IAN CRITCHLEY: and then determine and identify where there
IAN CRITCHLEY: is non-compliance; I'm just concerned about
IAN CRITCHLEY: the time scale. I think this area is moving
IAN CRITCHLEY: so quick. We're already talking about— it's
IAN CRITCHLEY: not something in the future when we're talking
IAN CRITCHLEY: about artificial intelligence and virtual
IAN CRITCHLEY: reality. It's already here.
IAN CRITCHLEY: We're already seeing child sexual abuse
IAN CRITCHLEY: material within the metaverse.
IAN CRITCHLEY: We are dealing with a huge increase in what
IAN CRITCHLEY: will start to become an even bigger
IAN CRITCHLEY: increase of demand in that area.
IAN CRITCHLEY: And ultimately, where should we really be
IAN CRITCHLEY: in this area? We should be preventing it
IAN CRITCHLEY: rather than having to respond to it in the
IAN CRITCHLEY: first place. I often will get and accept
IAN CRITCHLEY: and acknowledge the need for law enforcement
IAN CRITCHLEY: to step forward. We've worked with Her
IAN CRITCHLEY: Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary and
IAN CRITCHLEY: Fire and Rescue Service to take forward
IAN CRITCHLEY: recommendations for policing, so I
IAN CRITCHLEY: acknowledge and take responsibility, as the
IAN CRITCHLEY: national lead, that policing needs to do
IAN CRITCHLEY: much more.
IAN CRITCHLEY: But being able to predict the demand that
IAN CRITCHLEY: we've got here, being able to deal with
IAN CRITCHLEY: this, as well as many of the things that
IAN CRITCHLEY: policing needs to do, being able to
IAN CRITCHLEY: concentrate on those who are committing the
IAN CRITCHLEY: highest level of harm will best be done if
IAN CRITCHLEY: industry prevents such material being on
IAN CRITCHLEY: their platforms in the first place.
IAN CRITCHLEY: It will still be there; people will still
IAN CRITCHLEY: find their way to the dark web and other
IAN CRITCHLEY: areas but absolutely it will make it safer
IAN CRITCHLEY: for children. It will mean that it reduces
IAN CRITCHLEY: volume demand on us, and it will mean we
IAN CRITCHLEY: can concentrate on those who are committing
IAN CRITCHLEY: the highest level of harm.
IAN CRITCHLEY: It's a real challenge, but one in which we
IAN CRITCHLEY: must all strive to make sure that that
IAN CRITCHLEY: community, that online community, is
IAN CRITCHLEY: as safe as we would want our streets and
IAN CRITCHLEY: our neighbourhoods to be.
PRODUCER: Thanks to Ian Critchley and Susie Hargreaves.
PRODUCER: You can find a link to the Internet Watch
PRODUCER: Foundation's latest annual report in the podcast
PRODUCER: show notes.
PRODUCER: For more online safety advice, visit
PRODUCER: nspcc.org.uk/onlinesafety.
PRODUCER: In the next episode of Recommendations for
PRODUCER: Change, we'll be looking at justice and redress.
PRODUCER: What can be done to improve victims and
PRODUCER: survivors experiences of the criminal justice
PRODUCER: system?
PRODUCER: If you've been affected by any of the issues
PRODUCER: raised in this podcast, you can reach out to the
PRODUCER: NSPCC Helpline for support, call
PRODUCER: 0808 800 5000
PRODUCER: or email help@nspcc.org.uk.
PRODUCER: This podcast series was produced in Autumn 2023.
PRODUCER: All information was correct at the time of
PRODUCER: recording, but the world of child protection is
PRODUCER: ever-changing.
PRODUCER: To stay up to date, visit the NSPCC Learning
PRODUCER: website at nspcc.org.uk/learning.