Audioboom

{"flashNotices":[],"request_id":"3cda33430c8da8e270cf89b4902df076"}

Transcript for Justice and redress | Recommendations for Change: a series about the IICSA final report - episode 5

00:00:00,550 → 00:00:03,459

PRODUCER: Please note this podcast contains mention of

00:00:03,460 → 00:00:04,809

PRODUCER: child sexual abuse.

00:00:13,930 → 00:00:16,959

PRODUCER: In 2015, the Independent Inquiry into Child

00:00:16,960 → 00:00:19,479

PRODUCER: Sexual Abuse was set up to investigate where

00:00:19,480 → 00:00:21,729

PRODUCER: institutions failed to protect children in

00:00:21,730 → 00:00:22,730

PRODUCER: their care.

00:00:23,650 → 00:00:25,749

PRODUCER: The inquiry's final report, published in

00:00:25,750 → 00:00:28,629

PRODUCER: October 2022, laid out a set of

00:00:28,630 → 00:00:30,849

PRODUCER: powerful recommendations to address past

00:00:30,850 → 00:00:33,489

PRODUCER: failings and protect future generations of

00:00:33,490 → 00:00:34,719

PRODUCER: children from abuse.

00:00:36,040 → 00:00:38,139

PRODUCER: Recommendations for Change is a five-part

00:00:38,140 → 00:00:41,409

PRODUCER: podcast series from NSPCC Learning, examining

00:00:41,410 → 00:00:43,659

PRODUCER: why these recommendations are needed, how

00:00:43,660 → 00:00:46,629

PRODUCER: they'll work if implemented, and what impact

00:00:46,630 → 00:00:48,489

PRODUCER: they will have on the prevention of child

00:00:48,490 → 00:00:49,490

PRODUCER: sexual abuse.

00:00:52,370 → 00:00:55,329

PRODUCER: Episode five: justice and redress.

00:00:59,680 → 00:01:02,289

PRODUCER: The criminal and civil justice systems play an

00:01:02,290 → 00:01:04,719

PRODUCER: important role in the way the state responds to

00:01:04,720 → 00:01:06,669

PRODUCER: child sexual abuse.

00:01:06,670 → 00:01:09,519

PRODUCER: However, many of IICSA's investigations feature

00:01:09,520 → 00:01:11,559

PRODUCER: details of inadequate responses from the

00:01:11,560 → 00:01:15,519

PRODUCER: police, Crown Prosecution Service and courts.

00:01:15,520 → 00:01:17,829

PRODUCER: Through the IICSA Truth Project, victims and

00:01:17,830 → 00:01:20,079

PRODUCER: survivors were able to share their firsthand

00:01:20,080 → 00:01:23,139

PRODUCER: experiences of the justice system, from initial

00:01:23,140 → 00:01:25,839

PRODUCER: disclosure of abuse, through investigation by

00:01:25,840 → 00:01:29,229

PRODUCER: the police force or CPS, and then to court.

00:01:29,230 → 00:01:31,239

PRODUCER: The IICSA final report summarises the

00:01:31,240 → 00:01:33,909

PRODUCER: challenges they faced in pursuit of justice,

00:01:33,910 → 00:01:36,189

PRODUCER: including failures by police forces to fully

00:01:36,190 → 00:01:39,069

PRODUCER: investigate reports of child sexual abuse and

00:01:39,070 → 00:01:41,619

PRODUCER: delays in court proceedings, which can be

00:01:41,620 → 00:01:44,019

PRODUCER: stressful and traumatising for victims and

00:01:44,020 → 00:01:45,309

PRODUCER: survivors.

00:01:45,310 → 00:01:47,619

PRODUCER: In this final episode of Recommendations for

00:01:47,620 → 00:01:50,439

PRODUCER: Change, we'll be exploring how the information

00:01:50,440 → 00:01:53,049

PRODUCER: and recommendations proposed in the IICSA final

00:01:53,050 → 00:01:55,989

PRODUCER: report might improve victims and survivors

00:01:55,990 → 00:01:59,229

PRODUCER: experiences of the criminal justice system.

00:01:59,230 → 00:02:01,449

PRODUCER: We'll also be looking at proposed changes to

00:02:01,450 → 00:02:03,579

PRODUCER: the available schemes of compensation and

00:02:03,580 → 00:02:04,839

PRODUCER: redress.

00:02:04,840 → 00:02:07,089

PRODUCER: The first person I spoke to about policing and

00:02:07,090 → 00:02:10,269

PRODUCER: the criminal justice system was Ian Critchley.

00:02:10,270 → 00:02:12,639

PRODUCER: Ian is the National Police Chiefs Council lead

00:02:12,640 → 00:02:14,859

PRODUCER: for child protection and was previously the

00:02:14,860 → 00:02:17,859

PRODUCER: deputy chief constable of Merseyside Police.

00:02:17,860 → 00:02:19,989

IAN CRITCHLEY: My role, so this can be broken down into

00:02:19,990 → 00:02:21,579

IAN CRITCHLEY: three or four key areas.

00:02:21,580 → 00:02:24,099

IAN CRITCHLEY: One is making sure that policing

00:02:24,100 → 00:02:26,499

IAN CRITCHLEY: consistently develops and enhances its

00:02:26,500 → 00:02:29,409

IAN CRITCHLEY: approach to prevent child abuse,

00:02:29,410 → 00:02:31,749

IAN CRITCHLEY: to give confidence to victims — both

00:02:31,750 → 00:02:33,099

IAN CRITCHLEY: children and adult survivors — to come

00:02:33,100 → 00:02:35,109

IAN CRITCHLEY: forward and to bring more offenders to

00:02:35,110 → 00:02:37,389

IAN CRITCHLEY: justice. So that's a really critical area

00:02:37,390 → 00:02:38,979

IAN CRITCHLEY: for us. And clearly we take much learning

00:02:38,980 → 00:02:40,569

IAN CRITCHLEY: from from IICSA around that.

00:02:40,570 → 00:02:42,099

IAN CRITCHLEY: Two is to enhance partnerships at the

00:02:42,100 → 00:02:43,509

IAN CRITCHLEY: national and local levels.

00:02:43,510 → 00:02:46,329

IAN CRITCHLEY: I work very much with national key

00:02:46,330 → 00:02:48,309

IAN CRITCHLEY: stakeholders, both within government,

00:02:48,310 → 00:02:50,121

IAN CRITCHLEY: statutory partners, but also obviously

00:02:50,122 → 00:02:52,089

IAN CRITCHLEY: charitable organisations and third sector

00:02:52,090 → 00:02:54,279

IAN CRITCHLEY: like the NSPCC as well.

00:02:54,280 → 00:02:56,889

IAN CRITCHLEY: And thirdly, I work very closely with the

00:02:56,890 → 00:02:58,359

IAN CRITCHLEY: College of Policing and the Vulnerability

00:02:58,360 → 00:03:00,609

IAN CRITCHLEY: Knowledge Practice Programme to make sure

00:03:00,610 → 00:03:03,549

IAN CRITCHLEY: that we are converting strategy and

00:03:03,550 → 00:03:06,459

IAN CRITCHLEY: reviews into action that makes

00:03:06,460 → 00:03:08,349

IAN CRITCHLEY: a real difference at every level, whether

00:03:08,350 → 00:03:09,729

IAN CRITCHLEY: that's our specialist child protection

00:03:09,730 → 00:03:12,699

IAN CRITCHLEY: teams, whether that is our front line

00:03:12,700 → 00:03:15,159

IAN CRITCHLEY: officers — you know, new 20,000 officers

00:03:15,160 → 00:03:17,229

IAN CRITCHLEY: come into the organisation — contact

00:03:17,230 → 00:03:20,169

IAN CRITCHLEY: centre staff; everybody within the system

00:03:20,170 → 00:03:22,509

IAN CRITCHLEY: knows their role, also knows the partner

00:03:22,510 → 00:03:24,699

IAN CRITCHLEY: role, so we can work together to best

00:03:24,700 → 00:03:26,379

IAN CRITCHLEY: protect children from abuse that we know

00:03:26,380 → 00:03:27,909

IAN CRITCHLEY: will have a lifelong impact.

00:03:27,910 → 00:03:29,949

PRODUCER: Ian began by giving an overview of the

00:03:29,950 → 00:03:32,529

PRODUCER: recommendations and findings in the IICSA final

00:03:32,530 → 00:03:35,019

PRODUCER: report relating to the justice system.

00:03:35,020 → 00:03:36,909

IAN CRITCHLEY: There is clearly within the 20 key

00:03:36,910 → 00:03:39,699

IAN CRITCHLEY: recommendations, requirements to review

00:03:39,700 → 00:03:41,709

IAN CRITCHLEY: the joint inspection of the Victims' Code

00:03:41,710 → 00:03:44,079

IAN CRITCHLEY: and also removal of the three year time

00:03:44,080 → 00:03:46,330

IAN CRITCHLEY: limitations for civil claims as well;

00:03:46,331 → 00:03:49,299

IAN CRITCHLEY: recognising the impact that child

00:03:49,300 → 00:03:52,359

IAN CRITCHLEY: abuse has on victims, and also

00:03:52,360 → 00:03:55,149

IAN CRITCHLEY: timeliness in terms of confidence to

00:03:55,150 → 00:03:56,959

IAN CRITCHLEY: report, as well.

00:03:56,960 → 00:03:58,419

IAN CRITCHLEY: So I think they are some of the key

00:03:58,420 → 00:04:00,399

IAN CRITCHLEY: recommendations within there.

00:04:00,400 → 00:04:03,399

IAN CRITCHLEY: I remind myself of what was the evidence

00:04:03,400 → 00:04:05,019

IAN CRITCHLEY: that was given and provided across the

00:04:05,020 → 00:04:06,789

IAN CRITCHLEY: criminal justice system, and it is at this

00:04:06,790 → 00:04:08,949

IAN CRITCHLEY: point where I continue to reiterate my

00:04:08,950 → 00:04:11,799

IAN CRITCHLEY: apology on behalf of policing and the

00:04:11,800 → 00:04:13,989

IAN CRITCHLEY: failures that took place over many years

00:04:13,990 → 00:04:17,109

IAN CRITCHLEY: in relation to the way we

00:04:17,110 → 00:04:20,768

IAN CRITCHLEY: failed to believe,

00:04:20,769 → 00:04:23,949

IAN CRITCHLEY: listen, to deal with timeliness

00:04:23,950 → 00:04:27,069

IAN CRITCHLEY: of investigation, to signpost to

00:04:27,070 → 00:04:28,780

IAN CRITCHLEY: victim support services,

00:04:30,160 → 00:04:32,349

IAN CRITCHLEY: to make sure our language was appropriate

00:04:32,350 → 00:04:34,089

IAN CRITCHLEY: at all times and was no way victim

00:04:34,090 → 00:04:36,219

IAN CRITCHLEY: blaming, to provide communications in

00:04:36,220 → 00:04:38,259

IAN CRITCHLEY: relation to how quick our investigations

00:04:38,260 → 00:04:41,829

IAN CRITCHLEY: were progressing or not as well.

00:04:41,830 → 00:04:44,109

IAN CRITCHLEY: And, I also remind myself that we are part

00:04:44,110 → 00:04:45,699

IAN CRITCHLEY: and parcel of the wider criminal justice system.

00:04:45,700 → 00:04:48,549

IAN CRITCHLEY: So CPS, there was evidence given

00:04:48,550 → 00:04:50,499

IAN CRITCHLEY: within the Truth Project around the need

00:04:50,500 → 00:04:52,659

IAN CRITCHLEY: for CPS to give further information around

00:04:52,660 → 00:04:54,459

IAN CRITCHLEY: verdicts, sentencing, decisions not to

00:04:54,460 → 00:04:56,169

IAN CRITCHLEY: prosecute.

00:04:56,170 → 00:04:58,269

IAN CRITCHLEY: The court system, quite frankly, is just

00:04:58,270 → 00:05:00,669

IAN CRITCHLEY: too slow for victims once they do make

00:05:00,670 → 00:05:03,384

IAN CRITCHLEY: that difficult decision to disclose, years

00:05:04,690 → 00:05:06,699

IAN CRITCHLEY: and years sometimes in the waiting.

00:05:06,700 → 00:05:09,699

IAN CRITCHLEY: And then, I read from from

00:05:09,700 → 00:05:11,609

IAN CRITCHLEY: one victim, Bethany, within the Truth

00:05:11,610 → 00:05:14,079

IAN CRITCHLEY: Project, whose quote: "the sentence

00:05:14,080 → 00:05:16,389

IAN CRITCHLEY: massively diminished the crime.

00:05:16,390 → 00:05:20,109

IAN CRITCHLEY: It makes me feel worthless." So, again,

00:05:20,110 → 00:05:22,719

IAN CRITCHLEY: very careful around when we talk about

00:05:22,720 → 00:05:25,583

IAN CRITCHLEY: outcomes, that this is lifelong and a

00:05:25,584 → 00:05:27,699

IAN CRITCHLEY: criminal justice element is just one bit

00:05:27,700 → 00:05:28,689

IAN CRITCHLEY: of that.

00:05:28,690 → 00:05:31,389

PRODUCER: Focusing in on the police force.

00:05:31,390 → 00:05:33,939

PRODUCER: The police are often the first to be told about

00:05:33,940 → 00:05:36,369

PRODUCER: an incident of child sexual abuse.

00:05:36,370 → 00:05:38,769

PRODUCER: Of the IICSA Truth Project participants who did

00:05:38,770 → 00:05:40,449

PRODUCER: disclose their abuse at the time it was

00:05:40,450 → 00:05:43,329

PRODUCER: happening, 33% disclosed to

00:05:43,330 → 00:05:46,269

PRODUCER: the police. It's therefore critical that police

00:05:46,270 → 00:05:49,599

PRODUCER: forces respond appropriately to such reports.

00:05:49,600 → 00:05:52,179

PRODUCER: Unfortunately, as you just alluded to, a number

00:05:52,180 → 00:05:54,129

PRODUCER: of victims and survivors talked about the

00:05:54,130 → 00:05:56,979

PRODUCER: police not taking formal action after reports

00:05:56,980 → 00:05:59,279

PRODUCER: were made. Please can you explain where the

00:05:59,280 → 00:06:01,169

PRODUCER: police force has gone wrong in responding to

00:06:01,170 → 00:06:03,779

PRODUCER: child sexual abuse in the past, and what needs

00:06:03,780 → 00:06:06,269

PRODUCER: to be done to improve responses to CSA going

00:06:06,270 → 00:06:07,199

PRODUCER: forward?

00:06:07,200 → 00:06:08,729

IAN CRITCHLEY: Yeah. If I touch, first of all, I suppose

00:06:08,730 → 00:06:10,469

IAN CRITCHLEY: on what we're doing in policing and what

00:06:10,470 → 00:06:12,779

IAN CRITCHLEY: was identified in IICSA. So, really

00:06:12,780 → 00:06:14,489

IAN CRITCHLEY: interesting fact that, you know, up until

00:06:14,490 → 00:06:17,249

IAN CRITCHLEY: 1988 the uncorroborated evidence of a

00:06:17,250 → 00:06:18,519

IAN CRITCHLEY: child was inadmissible [in court]. You

00:06:18,520 → 00:06:21,569

IAN CRITCHLEY: know, a myth— a criminal justice system

00:06:21,570 → 00:06:24,479

IAN CRITCHLEY: that perpetuated a myth about

00:06:24,480 → 00:06:26,819

IAN CRITCHLEY: children. We didn't link perpetrators

00:06:26,820 → 00:06:28,079

IAN CRITCHLEY: together. So we might have had an

00:06:28,080 → 00:06:30,269

IAN CRITCHLEY: investigation 'A' over here — it might

00:06:30,270 → 00:06:31,559

IAN CRITCHLEY: even have been in the same force — or

00:06:31,560 → 00:06:33,059

IAN CRITCHLEY: investigation 'B' over here, but not

00:06:33,060 → 00:06:34,889

IAN CRITCHLEY: talking to each other. Perfect case of

00:06:34,890 → 00:06:37,049

IAN CRITCHLEY: that was obviously the appalling offences

00:06:37,050 → 00:06:39,299

IAN CRITCHLEY: committed by Jimmy Saville, around it,

00:06:39,300 → 00:06:41,729

IAN CRITCHLEY: which led to obviously developments and us

00:06:41,730 → 00:06:43,619

IAN CRITCHLEY: enhancing both the police national

00:06:43,620 → 00:06:44,943

IAN CRITCHLEY: database but also Operation Hydrant around it. A

00:06:47,640 → 00:06:49,979

IAN CRITCHLEY: hierarchy that existed in police forces

00:06:49,980 → 00:06:52,229

IAN CRITCHLEY: where concerns by our investigators were

00:06:52,230 → 00:06:55,109

IAN CRITCHLEY: failed to be able to be acted on by

00:06:55,110 → 00:06:56,729

IAN CRITCHLEY: strategic leaders.

00:06:56,730 → 00:06:58,649

IAN CRITCHLEY: I talked about a victim blaming and

00:06:58,650 → 00:07:01,859

IAN CRITCHLEY: belief: we historically have arrested

00:07:01,860 → 00:07:04,199

IAN CRITCHLEY: children who were seeking to report crimes

00:07:04,200 → 00:07:06,899

IAN CRITCHLEY: of abuse, leaving the abuser free to

00:07:06,900 → 00:07:08,939

IAN CRITCHLEY: continue to have perpetrate their

00:07:08,940 → 00:07:11,699

IAN CRITCHLEY: appalling crimes. Areas like missing, we

00:07:11,700 → 00:07:13,649

IAN CRITCHLEY: weren't picking up on the warning signs.

00:07:13,650 → 00:07:14,999

IAN CRITCHLEY: So areas like missing, failing to

00:07:15,000 → 00:07:18,179

IAN CRITCHLEY: undertake quality return interviews and

00:07:18,180 → 00:07:20,639

IAN CRITCHLEY: really not identifying the scale and

00:07:20,640 → 00:07:22,469

IAN CRITCHLEY: nature of it, particularly around

00:07:22,470 → 00:07:24,539

IAN CRITCHLEY: group-based offending of course.

00:07:24,540 → 00:07:27,539

IAN CRITCHLEY: In some areas, we were paying deference

00:07:27,540 → 00:07:30,029

IAN CRITCHLEY: to persons in positions of prominence as

00:07:30,030 → 00:07:31,869

IAN CRITCHLEY: well, who escaped justice.

00:07:31,870 → 00:07:33,689

IAN CRITCHLEY: Making wrong decisions by police and CPS

00:07:33,690 → 00:07:35,129

IAN CRITCHLEY: to prosecute — I've actually just chaired a

00:07:35,130 → 00:07:36,748

IAN CRITCHLEY: child sexual abuse referral panel.

00:07:36,749 → 00:07:39,719

IAN CRITCHLEY: And we've also now got since 2013

00:07:39,720 → 00:07:41,159

IAN CRITCHLEY: the right to review. So giving an

00:07:41,160 → 00:07:43,769

IAN CRITCHLEY: opportunity for victims to review NFA

00:07:43,770 → 00:07:45,629

IAN CRITCHLEY: decisions by police and the CPS.

00:07:45,630 → 00:07:47,159

IAN CRITCHLEY: Of course, we want to make sure we make

00:07:47,160 → 00:07:50,219

IAN CRITCHLEY: the right decisions in the first place.

00:07:50,220 → 00:07:52,109

IAN CRITCHLEY: What are we doing around that?

00:07:52,110 → 00:07:53,399

IAN CRITCHLEY: We're working very closely with the College

00:07:53,400 → 00:07:55,949

IAN CRITCHLEY: of Policing to enhance our training of

00:07:55,950 → 00:07:57,599

IAN CRITCHLEY: both our specialist staff and our

00:07:57,600 → 00:08:00,569

IAN CRITCHLEY: frontline staff. IICSA makes specific

00:08:00,570 → 00:08:02,639

IAN CRITCHLEY: recommendations in reference to special

00:08:02,640 → 00:08:04,979

IAN CRITCHLEY: measures for children.

00:08:04,980 → 00:08:07,229

IAN CRITCHLEY: So, of course, we brought in achieving

00:08:07,230 → 00:08:08,230

IAN CRITCHLEY: best evidence interviews.

00:08:09,420 → 00:08:12,749

IAN CRITCHLEY: And now, a victim's testimony

00:08:12,750 → 00:08:16,139

IAN CRITCHLEY: can be obviously played in terms of the

00:08:16,140 → 00:08:18,089

IAN CRITCHLEY: digital recording of that, but we've also

00:08:18,090 → 00:08:21,159

IAN CRITCHLEY: now progressed on to, in some areas, the

00:08:21,160 → 00:08:22,979

IAN CRITCHLEY: examination and cross-examination also

00:08:22,980 → 00:08:26,039

IAN CRITCHLEY: being done as recorded, as well, to

00:08:26,040 → 00:08:29,039

IAN CRITCHLEY: again assist a victim within that

00:08:29,040 → 00:08:30,631

IAN CRITCHLEY: area. The Victims' Code: IICSA makes

00:08:30,632 → 00:08:34,349

IAN CRITCHLEY: specific reference to the Victims' Code

00:08:34,350 → 00:08:36,689

IAN CRITCHLEY: and the 12 rights within there, first

00:08:36,690 → 00:08:38,399

IAN CRITCHLEY: published in 2005, I think.

00:08:38,400 → 00:08:40,918

IAN CRITCHLEY: I think what's key within there, there is

00:08:40,919 → 00:08:42,808

IAN CRITCHLEY: a right for victims to have a referral to

00:08:42,809 → 00:08:45,059

IAN CRITCHLEY: support for victims. Yet IICSA found that

00:08:45,060 → 00:08:47,699

IAN CRITCHLEY: very few victims were getting advocacy and

00:08:47,700 → 00:08:50,279

IAN CRITCHLEY: support during an investigation stage.

00:08:50,280 → 00:08:52,619

IAN CRITCHLEY: But, as we know, victims need different

00:08:52,620 → 00:08:55,449

IAN CRITCHLEY: types of support, particularly around

00:08:55,450 → 00:08:57,479

IAN CRITCHLEY: their mental health and well-being, and

00:08:57,480 → 00:08:59,009

IAN CRITCHLEY: that just wasn't being provided or

00:08:59,010 → 00:09:00,010

IAN CRITCHLEY: signposted.

00:09:00,870 → 00:09:02,519

IAN CRITCHLEY: They have a right to be provided the

00:09:02,520 → 00:09:04,109

IAN CRITCHLEY: information about the investigation, the

00:09:04,110 → 00:09:06,149

IAN CRITCHLEY: trial and compensation, and this wasn't

00:09:06,150 → 00:09:07,529

IAN CRITCHLEY: happening. They have a right to be

00:09:07,530 → 00:09:09,509

IAN CRITCHLEY: informed about the outcome and appeal and

00:09:09,510 → 00:09:12,809

IAN CRITCHLEY: how the offender will be managed,

00:09:12,810 → 00:09:14,729

IAN CRITCHLEY: as well. And a right to have the knowledge

00:09:14,730 → 00:09:16,499

IAN CRITCHLEY: and use of special measures as well.

00:09:16,500 → 00:09:19,529

IAN CRITCHLEY: So good reference in IICSA, to make

00:09:19,530 → 00:09:21,119

IAN CRITCHLEY: sure that we are fulfilling what is

00:09:21,120 → 00:09:24,059

IAN CRITCHLEY: already within the Victims'

00:09:24,060 → 00:09:26,699

IAN CRITCHLEY: Code and it is our responsibility to make

00:09:26,700 → 00:09:28,799

IAN CRITCHLEY: sure is undertaken and progressed in a

00:09:28,800 → 00:09:31,439

IAN CRITCHLEY: really professional, caring, empathetic

00:09:31,440 → 00:09:32,369

IAN CRITCHLEY: way.

00:09:32,370 → 00:09:34,529

PRODUCER: You mentioned survivors have a right to

00:09:34,530 → 00:09:37,349

PRODUCER: advocacy during investigations, but that very

00:09:37,350 → 00:09:39,509

PRODUCER: few victims and survivors are getting that

00:09:39,510 → 00:09:40,859

PRODUCER: advocacy.

00:09:40,860 → 00:09:43,319

PRODUCER: How do we improve access to advocacy during an

00:09:43,320 → 00:09:45,899

PRODUCER: investigation of child sexual abuse?

00:09:45,900 → 00:09:47,939

IAN CRITCHLEY: I think there's a real challenge here in

00:09:47,940 → 00:09:50,339

IAN CRITCHLEY: terms of advocacy, whether that's for

00:09:50,340 → 00:09:52,259

IAN CRITCHLEY: children, whether that's for adult survivors,

00:09:52,260 → 00:09:53,759

IAN CRITCHLEY: I see it across a wider area of

00:09:53,760 → 00:09:56,519

IAN CRITCHLEY: vulnerability around advocates for

00:09:56,520 → 00:09:58,409

IAN CRITCHLEY: domestic abuse as well.

00:09:58,410 → 00:10:00,959

IAN CRITCHLEY: There is a critical role here for police

00:10:00,960 → 00:10:03,779

IAN CRITCHLEY: and crime commissioners, to make sure

00:10:03,780 → 00:10:06,899

IAN CRITCHLEY: there is good joined-up funding streams

00:10:06,900 → 00:10:09,959

IAN CRITCHLEY: for the advocacy of such

00:10:09,960 → 00:10:12,779

IAN CRITCHLEY: a service. I do believe — and one of the

00:10:12,780 → 00:10:14,909

IAN CRITCHLEY: recommendations from IICSA was a joint

00:10:14,910 → 00:10:16,799

IAN CRITCHLEY: inspection of the Victims' Code, and it

00:10:16,800 → 00:10:19,049

IAN CRITCHLEY: does also obviously feature in terms of

00:10:19,050 → 00:10:21,519

IAN CRITCHLEY: HMICFRS inspections as to how they are

00:10:21,520 → 00:10:23,639

IAN CRITCHLEY: applying the Victims' Code, but clearly it

00:10:23,640 → 00:10:24,994

IAN CRITCHLEY: goes beyond the policing responsibility

00:10:27,210 → 00:10:29,581

IAN CRITCHLEY: here to other statutory

00:10:30,600 → 00:10:31,859

IAN CRITCHLEY: partners as well.

00:10:31,860 → 00:10:33,299

IAN CRITCHLEY: I do think there needs to be a national

00:10:33,300 → 00:10:36,719

IAN CRITCHLEY: review of both the funding

00:10:36,720 → 00:10:39,749

IAN CRITCHLEY: and the provision of children's and

00:10:39,750 → 00:10:42,299

IAN CRITCHLEY: adult survivors advocacy service,

00:10:42,300 → 00:10:44,999

IAN CRITCHLEY: particularly around therapeutic support.

00:10:45,000 → 00:10:46,319

IAN CRITCHLEY: We know only too well the pressure that's

00:10:46,320 → 00:10:48,689

IAN CRITCHLEY: on services like CAMHS as well.

00:10:48,690 → 00:10:50,339

IAN CRITCHLEY: And we know only too well that if we don't

00:10:50,340 → 00:10:52,319

IAN CRITCHLEY: catch it early, and we don't intervene

00:10:52,320 → 00:10:55,319

IAN CRITCHLEY: early with the right level of support

00:10:55,320 → 00:10:57,894

IAN CRITCHLEY: and intervention, then we know that harm

00:10:57,895 → 00:11:00,539

IAN CRITCHLEY: to that young person or adult survivor

00:11:00,540 → 00:11:02,759

IAN CRITCHLEY: will get much, much worse.

00:11:02,760 → 00:11:05,099

IAN CRITCHLEY: And there will be a cost to that.

00:11:05,100 → 00:11:07,439

IAN CRITCHLEY: There will be a financial cost, because

00:11:07,440 → 00:11:09,059

IAN CRITCHLEY: that will mean that that person will

00:11:09,060 → 00:11:11,579

IAN CRITCHLEY: require services for a long time that

00:11:11,580 → 00:11:13,199

IAN CRITCHLEY: haven't been provided at the earliest

00:11:13,200 → 00:11:14,489

IAN CRITCHLEY: opportunity.

00:11:14,490 → 00:11:16,019

IAN CRITCHLEY: But most sadly, there's obviously human

00:11:16,020 → 00:11:19,199

IAN CRITCHLEY: cost of harm, and we will find that that

00:11:19,200 → 00:11:21,479

IAN CRITCHLEY: person, that victim of crime, will be in

00:11:21,480 → 00:11:23,704

IAN CRITCHLEY: and out of interventions for

00:11:24,900 → 00:11:27,269

IAN CRITCHLEY: a long time, if not for the rest of their

00:11:27,270 → 00:11:29,669

IAN CRITCHLEY: lives. So there's absolutely a moral

00:11:29,670 → 00:11:32,489

IAN CRITCHLEY: requirement and a human requirement on us

00:11:32,490 → 00:11:35,279

IAN CRITCHLEY: to improve the position that we're in now.

00:11:35,280 → 00:11:38,579

IAN CRITCHLEY: I've talked earlier on about the scale

00:11:38,580 → 00:11:39,959

IAN CRITCHLEY: of child abuse: we're now dealing with over

00:11:39,960 → 00:11:42,719

IAN CRITCHLEY: 100,000 crimes reported to us.

00:11:42,720 → 00:11:45,119

IAN CRITCHLEY: Each one of those persons is a victim in

00:11:45,120 → 00:11:48,929

IAN CRITCHLEY: their own right and absolutely deserves

00:11:48,930 → 00:11:51,929

IAN CRITCHLEY: the advocacy that will help them

00:11:51,930 → 00:11:55,559

IAN CRITCHLEY: through not just any criminal justice

00:11:55,560 → 00:11:57,089

IAN CRITCHLEY: process that takes place.

00:11:57,090 → 00:11:58,319

IAN CRITCHLEY: And that is important.

00:11:58,320 → 00:12:01,709

IAN CRITCHLEY: And, you know, being confident

00:12:01,710 → 00:12:02,939

IAN CRITCHLEY: that they've been dealt with in the most

00:12:02,940 → 00:12:04,859

IAN CRITCHLEY: appropriate way is important, but much

00:12:04,860 → 00:12:06,479

IAN CRITCHLEY: beyond, much beyond that.

00:12:06,480 → 00:12:08,129

IAN CRITCHLEY: And I think there's a real stretch and

00:12:08,130 → 00:12:10,799

IAN CRITCHLEY: strain on the advocacy service that needs

00:12:10,800 → 00:12:12,839

IAN CRITCHLEY: a complete review and an overhaul that's

00:12:12,840 → 00:12:13,840

IAN CRITCHLEY: recommended by IICSA.

00:12:14,610 → 00:12:17,189

PRODUCER: In our conversation, Ian identified areas for

00:12:17,190 → 00:12:20,009

PRODUCER: improvements that sit outside of IICSA's 20

00:12:20,010 → 00:12:22,769

PRODUCER: main recommendations, particularly the need for

00:12:22,770 → 00:12:25,169

PRODUCER: police services to improve the way they respond

00:12:25,170 → 00:12:27,509

PRODUCER: to victims and survivors.

00:12:27,510 → 00:12:30,149

PRODUCER: Simon Bailey was Ian's predecessor as National

00:12:30,150 → 00:12:31,889

PRODUCER: Police Chiefs Council lead for Child

00:12:31,890 → 00:12:34,979

PRODUCER: Protection, serving in post for eight years.

00:12:34,980 → 00:12:36,989

PRODUCER: He is now a member of the Child Safeguarding

00:12:36,990 → 00:12:38,939

PRODUCER: Practice Review Panel.

00:12:38,940 → 00:12:41,519

PRODUCER: I spoke to Simon about the same topic: what

00:12:41,520 → 00:12:43,979

PRODUCER: changes are needed to improve the experiences

00:12:43,980 → 00:12:46,649

PRODUCER: of the criminal justice system for victims and

00:12:46,650 → 00:12:49,349

PRODUCER: survivors of child sexual abuse?

00:12:49,350 → 00:12:52,469

SIMON BAILEY: For me, it starts with with

00:12:52,470 → 00:12:53,969

SIMON BAILEY: the basics.

00:12:53,970 → 00:12:56,609

SIMON BAILEY: And first and foremost — it's something I

00:12:56,610 → 00:12:59,219

SIMON BAILEY: feel very strongly about, I feel

00:12:59,220 → 00:13:01,979

SIMON BAILEY: passionately about, and have done my best

00:13:01,980 → 00:13:03,689

SIMON BAILEY: to champion — and that's the importance of

00:13:03,690 → 00:13:06,989

SIMON BAILEY: victims knowing that at the point

00:13:06,990 → 00:13:10,259

SIMON BAILEY: of reporting their abuse,

00:13:10,260 → 00:13:11,879

SIMON BAILEY: that they are believed.

00:13:11,880 → 00:13:14,699

SIMON BAILEY: There is really significant academic

00:13:14,700 → 00:13:17,909

SIMON BAILEY: research that has been done that talks

00:13:17,910 → 00:13:20,069

SIMON BAILEY: about one of the biggest hurdles for

00:13:20,070 → 00:13:21,901

SIMON BAILEY: victim/survivors to overcome is: "am

00:13:22,980 → 00:13:24,719

SIMON BAILEY: I going to be believed to the point of

00:13:24,720 → 00:13:27,689

SIMON BAILEY: reporting my abuse?" And knowing that

00:13:27,690 → 00:13:29,909

SIMON BAILEY: they are reporting into a justice system

00:13:29,910 → 00:13:31,977

SIMON BAILEY: that from the— at the start of that report

00:13:31,978 → 00:13:34,709

SIMON BAILEY: — and I will clarify that — they are going

00:13:34,710 → 00:13:37,439

SIMON BAILEY: to be believed, is essential.

00:13:37,440 → 00:13:40,559

SIMON BAILEY: And victims, I think, are

00:13:40,560 → 00:13:42,809

SIMON BAILEY: owed that right.

00:13:42,810 → 00:13:45,899

SIMON BAILEY: However — and this is where it's

00:13:45,900 → 00:13:47,669

SIMON BAILEY: nuanced and it's important that there is

00:13:47,670 → 00:13:50,609

SIMON BAILEY: real clarity around this — once the

00:13:50,610 → 00:13:52,919

SIMON BAILEY: report has been taken, once the evidence

00:13:52,920 → 00:13:55,589

SIMON BAILEY: has been secured as best it can be at that

00:13:55,590 → 00:13:58,439

SIMON BAILEY: point, thereafter there

00:13:58,440 → 00:14:00,869

SIMON BAILEY: has to be an investigation without fear or

00:14:00,870 → 00:14:03,749

SIMON BAILEY: favour, and police officers, police

00:14:03,750 → 00:14:05,729

SIMON BAILEY: staff, then need to go wherever the

00:14:05,730 → 00:14:07,619

SIMON BAILEY: evidence will take them.

00:14:07,620 → 00:14:09,779

SIMON BAILEY: And I have not spoken to a victim/survivor

00:14:09,780 → 00:14:12,269

SIMON BAILEY: that doesn't agree with that approach.

00:14:12,270 → 00:14:15,269

SIMON BAILEY: It is not a blind belief.

00:14:15,270 → 00:14:17,789

SIMON BAILEY: It's important the victim come forward

00:14:17,790 → 00:14:19,259

SIMON BAILEY: knowing that they will be believed, but

00:14:19,260 → 00:14:20,999

SIMON BAILEY: also knowing that thereafter there will be

00:14:21,000 → 00:14:23,519

SIMON BAILEY: a completely impartial investigation.

00:14:23,520 → 00:14:27,029

SIMON BAILEY: And I think that has to be step one.

00:14:27,030 → 00:14:30,209

SIMON BAILEY: Step two: there needs to be,

00:14:30,210 → 00:14:32,609

SIMON BAILEY: throughout the course of the investigation

00:14:32,610 → 00:14:35,429

SIMON BAILEY: that the investigating officers, the

00:14:35,430 → 00:14:38,489

SIMON BAILEY: investigating team, keep

00:14:38,490 → 00:14:41,309

SIMON BAILEY: the victim survivor fully updated on

00:14:41,310 → 00:14:43,499

SIMON BAILEY: progress. If they are saying they're going

00:14:43,500 → 00:14:45,719

SIMON BAILEY: to call them at 11 o'clock tomorrow, they

00:14:45,720 → 00:14:47,549

SIMON BAILEY: need to make that call.

00:14:47,550 → 00:14:48,929

SIMON BAILEY: They need to keep them updated on the

00:14:48,930 → 00:14:51,599

SIMON BAILEY: progress. And even if it's a call that says

00:14:51,600 → 00:14:52,949

SIMON BAILEY: "there's nothing more I can tell you this amount

00:14:52,950 → 00:14:54,959

SIMON BAILEY: of time, or there are no new updates", but

00:14:54,960 → 00:14:58,139

SIMON BAILEY: just that engagement is so, so

00:14:58,140 → 00:14:59,519

SIMON BAILEY: important.

00:14:59,520 → 00:15:02,939

SIMON BAILEY: And then, as the investigation progresses

00:15:02,940 → 00:15:04,799

SIMON BAILEY: and they get to the point of the Crown

00:15:04,800 → 00:15:07,589

SIMON BAILEY: Prosecution Service making that decision,

00:15:07,590 → 00:15:09,809

SIMON BAILEY: my personal view is and it's so important

00:15:09,810 → 00:15:12,359

SIMON BAILEY: that the Crown Prosecution Service should

00:15:12,360 → 00:15:14,789

SIMON BAILEY: be making the decisions based about — a

00:15:14,790 → 00:15:18,239

SIMON BAILEY: decision to charge or not — based upon

00:15:18,240 → 00:15:20,729

SIMON BAILEY: the evidence that's in front of them.

00:15:20,730 → 00:15:22,889

SIMON BAILEY: And they shouldn't be taking a bookmaker's

00:15:22,890 → 00:15:24,659

SIMON BAILEY: approach. It shouldn't be based upon what's

00:15:24,660 → 00:15:26,159

SIMON BAILEY: the likelihood here?

00:15:26,160 → 00:15:29,369

SIMON BAILEY: If there is evidence there of abuse, then

00:15:29,370 → 00:15:31,649

SIMON BAILEY: that evidence should be being put before a

00:15:31,650 → 00:15:34,439

SIMON BAILEY: jury for a jury then to decide.

00:15:34,440 → 00:15:37,349

SIMON BAILEY: And then the final element for me has got

00:15:37,350 → 00:15:39,689

SIMON BAILEY: to be that the criminal justice system, at

00:15:39,690 → 00:15:41,699

SIMON BAILEY: this moment in time, is taking too long to

00:15:41,700 → 00:15:43,769

SIMON BAILEY: deal with these cases.

00:15:43,770 → 00:15:45,539

SIMON BAILEY: The statistics are there in the public

00:15:45,540 → 00:15:47,219

SIMON BAILEY: domain, the number of days it is taking for

00:15:47,220 → 00:15:50,549

SIMON BAILEY: the moment of report to charge, then to

00:15:50,550 → 00:15:52,949

SIMON BAILEY: a trial. We have got to speed up the

00:15:52,950 → 00:15:55,679

SIMON BAILEY: process, and we've got to be looking at the

00:15:55,680 → 00:15:57,329

SIMON BAILEY: pilots that are taking place in terms of

00:15:57,330 → 00:15:59,199

SIMON BAILEY: the dedicated sexual offending courts, I

00:15:59,200 → 00:16:01,629

SIMON BAILEY: think that's really important, because the

00:16:01,630 → 00:16:04,899

SIMON BAILEY: staff that are dealing with these cases,

00:16:04,900 → 00:16:07,809

SIMON BAILEY: the court staff, the prosecutors, should be

00:16:07,810 → 00:16:10,329

SIMON BAILEY: aware of the trauma that the victim has has

00:16:10,330 → 00:16:13,239

SIMON BAILEY: suffered and they should be equipped to be

00:16:13,240 → 00:16:14,589

SIMON BAILEY: able to deal with that.

00:16:14,590 → 00:16:17,469

SIMON BAILEY: And the courtroom should not become a

00:16:17,470 → 00:16:20,469

SIMON BAILEY: hostile environment for victims and

00:16:20,470 → 00:16:21,939

SIMON BAILEY: survivors of of abuse.

00:16:21,940 → 00:16:23,619

SIMON BAILEY: Yes, you have to go through the judicial

00:16:23,620 → 00:16:25,419

SIMON BAILEY: process. I completely get that.

00:16:25,420 → 00:16:27,639

SIMON BAILEY: But the bottom line is that it should be

00:16:27,640 → 00:16:29,619

SIMON BAILEY: done in such a way that the court staff,

00:16:29,620 → 00:16:31,449

SIMON BAILEY: the environment, appreciates the trauma of

00:16:31,450 → 00:16:32,979

SIMON BAILEY: what's happened and they — the

00:16:32,980 → 00:16:35,169

SIMON BAILEY: victims/survivors — should be afforded the

00:16:35,170 → 00:16:37,689

SIMON BAILEY: appropriate level of support and the

00:16:37,690 → 00:16:39,309

SIMON BAILEY: awareness as they go into it.

00:16:39,310 → 00:16:40,659

SIMON BAILEY: And there are ways of being able to deal

00:16:40,660 → 00:16:42,399

SIMON BAILEY: with that. And you'll be aware of the conversations

00:16:42,400 → 00:16:44,049

SIMON BAILEY: that have taken place around the pre-recording

00:16:44,050 → 00:16:47,199

SIMON BAILEY: of evidence and what that might look like.

00:16:47,200 → 00:16:50,049

SIMON BAILEY: So I think that if we get those principles

00:16:50,050 → 00:16:52,689

SIMON BAILEY: right, around belief, but not a blind

00:16:52,690 → 00:16:55,809

SIMON BAILEY: belief; around the routine of keeping

00:16:55,810 → 00:16:57,939

SIMON BAILEY: victim/survivors up to date and aware of

00:16:57,940 → 00:17:00,759

SIMON BAILEY: the investigation as it goes; when the CPS

00:17:00,760 → 00:17:03,249

SIMON BAILEY: are making the decisions, let's make sure

00:17:03,250 → 00:17:06,039

SIMON BAILEY: it's a merits-based decision, not a

00:17:06,040 → 00:17:08,169

SIMON BAILEY: bookmaker's decision; and let's then make

00:17:08,170 → 00:17:10,539

SIMON BAILEY: sure that when a charge is made, that

00:17:10,540 → 00:17:13,088

SIMON BAILEY: actually the judicial process is then

00:17:13,089 → 00:17:15,489

SIMON BAILEY: cognisant of trauma that what is then the

00:17:15,490 → 00:17:17,499

SIMON BAILEY: witness, the victim, the witness has then

00:17:17,500 → 00:17:20,979

SIMON BAILEY: endured, and how you make the system

00:17:20,980 → 00:17:23,799

SIMON BAILEY: as supportive as possible.

00:17:23,800 → 00:17:25,929

PRODUCER: What steps would you take to make that system

00:17:25,930 → 00:17:27,309

PRODUCER: more supportive?

00:17:27,310 → 00:17:30,099

SIMON BAILEY: I think the key thing is that the

00:17:30,100 → 00:17:32,649

SIMON BAILEY: specialists working within those courts

00:17:32,650 → 00:17:34,869

SIMON BAILEY: needs to be trauma-informed.

00:17:34,870 → 00:17:37,909

SIMON BAILEY: They need to have that training.

00:17:37,910 → 00:17:40,719

SIMON BAILEY: Specialist, independent sexual violence

00:17:40,720 → 00:17:43,869

SIMON BAILEY: advisors need to be made available

00:17:43,870 → 00:17:45,639

SIMON BAILEY: to the victims as well.

00:17:45,640 → 00:17:48,369

SIMON BAILEY: And I think that's really important that

00:17:48,370 → 00:17:50,709

SIMON BAILEY: they understand that. And that when you are

00:17:50,710 → 00:17:52,329

SIMON BAILEY: then dealing within that, in that

00:17:52,330 → 00:17:54,939

SIMON BAILEY: particular court setting, you need to make

00:17:54,940 → 00:17:57,849

SIMON BAILEY: sure that the support is right

00:17:57,850 → 00:17:59,589

SIMON BAILEY: there for the victims; that the staff

00:17:59,590 → 00:18:01,119

SIMON BAILEY: understand, that they have the right

00:18:01,120 → 00:18:04,119

SIMON BAILEY: support, have an appreciation of what

00:18:04,120 → 00:18:06,129

SIMON BAILEY: those victim/survivors have been exposed

00:18:06,130 → 00:18:08,649

SIMON BAILEY: to, what what it's been like for them, the

00:18:08,650 → 00:18:11,109

SIMON BAILEY: courage that they have had to to come

00:18:11,110 → 00:18:13,269

SIMON BAILEY: forward and report it.

00:18:13,270 → 00:18:15,639

SIMON BAILEY: And, on the back of that, you then create a

00:18:15,640 → 00:18:18,189

SIMON BAILEY: very, very different environment.

00:18:18,190 → 00:18:20,679

PRODUCER: Finally, is there any specific advice you would

00:18:20,680 → 00:18:22,599

PRODUCER: give to professionals working across the

00:18:22,600 → 00:18:25,419

PRODUCER: criminal justice system — in policing, in the

00:18:25,420 → 00:18:28,329

PRODUCER: courtroom — on how to respond to the

00:18:28,330 → 00:18:29,679

PRODUCER: IICSA findings?

00:18:29,680 → 00:18:32,679

SIMON BAILEY: I think the the most important thing

00:18:32,680 → 00:18:36,189

SIMON BAILEY: for me, having operated on

00:18:36,190 → 00:18:37,899

SIMON BAILEY: the policing side of the criminal justice

00:18:37,900 → 00:18:39,422

SIMON BAILEY: system for 35 years, is

00:18:41,020 → 00:18:43,449

SIMON BAILEY: to realise that you are not just dealing

00:18:43,450 → 00:18:44,949

SIMON BAILEY: with a case number.

00:18:44,950 → 00:18:47,739

SIMON BAILEY: You are dealing with a person.

00:18:47,740 → 00:18:50,709

SIMON BAILEY: You're dealing with a victim.

00:18:50,710 → 00:18:53,649

SIMON BAILEY: And that's why recommendation 14

00:18:53,650 → 00:18:56,649

SIMON BAILEY: of the inquiry talks about the

00:18:56,650 → 00:18:58,629

SIMON BAILEY: importance of compliance with the Victims'

00:18:58,630 → 00:19:01,599

SIMON BAILEY: code. And I think that is

00:19:01,600 → 00:19:04,449

SIMON BAILEY: so important. There needs to

00:19:04,450 → 00:19:07,659

SIMON BAILEY: be further work done around

00:19:07,660 → 00:19:09,849

SIMON BAILEY: that, and a joint inspection regarding

00:19:09,850 → 00:19:12,159

SIMON BAILEY: compliance with the Victims' Code.

00:19:12,160 → 00:19:14,379

SIMON BAILEY: There are some gaps and I think IICSA has

00:19:14,380 → 00:19:15,669

SIMON BAILEY: identified gaps.

00:19:15,670 → 00:19:18,639

SIMON BAILEY: There needs to be a review to look at

00:19:19,730 → 00:19:21,939

SIMON BAILEY: the whole systems approach to the criminal

00:19:21,940 → 00:19:24,789

SIMON BAILEY: justice response of what is taking

00:19:24,790 → 00:19:27,219

SIMON BAILEY: place and the, you know, the recommendation

00:19:27,220 → 00:19:28,220

SIMON BAILEY: is clear.

00:19:29,230 → 00:19:30,999

SIMON BAILEY: The inspectorates carry out that regular

00:19:31,000 → 00:19:32,499

SIMON BAILEY: joint inspection on victims' issues,

00:19:32,500 → 00:19:35,199

SIMON BAILEY: because actually it's really important that

00:19:35,200 → 00:19:38,109

SIMON BAILEY: the the victim/survivors are made

00:19:38,110 → 00:19:39,110

SIMON BAILEY: to feel that

00:19:41,400 → 00:19:43,619

SIMON BAILEY: they are being treated as a person rather

00:19:43,620 → 00:19:46,499

SIMON BAILEY: than just another case that's going through

00:19:46,500 → 00:19:47,909

SIMON BAILEY: the court system.

00:19:47,910 → 00:19:50,429

PRODUCER: During our conversations, both Ian and Simon

00:19:50,430 → 00:19:52,499

PRODUCER: mentioned the Victims' Code.

00:19:52,500 → 00:19:55,469

PRODUCER: Recommendation 14 of the IICSA final report

00:19:55,470 → 00:19:58,109

PRODUCER: asks the UK government to arrange for a joint

00:19:58,110 → 00:20:00,359

PRODUCER: inspection of the compliance with the Victims'

00:20:00,360 → 00:20:03,209

PRODUCER: Code in relation to victims and survivors of

00:20:03,210 → 00:20:05,219

PRODUCER: child sexual abuse.

00:20:05,220 → 00:20:07,409

PRODUCER: Here's Ian Critchley again to briefly explain

00:20:07,410 → 00:20:09,869

PRODUCER: what the Victims' Code is and how it protects

00:20:09,870 → 00:20:10,949

PRODUCER: children.

00:20:10,950 → 00:20:13,919

IAN CRITCHLEY: The Victims' Code was brought in 2005.

00:20:13,920 → 00:20:16,289

IAN CRITCHLEY: It's a statutory mechanism: the rights of

00:20:16,290 → 00:20:19,799

IAN CRITCHLEY: all victims that needs to be delivered by

00:20:19,800 → 00:20:21,269

IAN CRITCHLEY: criminal justice partners, and I've

00:20:21,270 → 00:20:24,299

IAN CRITCHLEY: touched on some of those key rights

00:20:24,300 → 00:20:26,189

IAN CRITCHLEY: in terms of referral to support; the

00:20:26,190 → 00:20:27,492

IAN CRITCHLEY: victims being kept updated on

00:20:29,040 → 00:20:31,199

IAN CRITCHLEY: the investigation; being provided with

00:20:31,200 → 00:20:32,699

IAN CRITCHLEY: information about the trial and

00:20:32,700 → 00:20:35,339

IAN CRITCHLEY: compensation; being informed about the

00:20:35,340 → 00:20:38,579

IAN CRITCHLEY: outcomes and any, obviously, appeal.

00:20:38,580 → 00:20:41,015

IAN CRITCHLEY: But also how an offender is being managed,

00:20:41,016 → 00:20:44,339

IAN CRITCHLEY: if they are sentenced to a custodial

00:20:44,340 → 00:20:46,379

IAN CRITCHLEY: sentence, again, there are rights to be

00:20:46,380 → 00:20:48,839

IAN CRITCHLEY: informed of release around it.

00:20:48,840 → 00:20:51,959

IAN CRITCHLEY: Being informed about

00:20:51,960 → 00:20:53,634

IAN CRITCHLEY: therapeutic and counselling opportunities;

00:20:53,635 → 00:20:56,569

IAN CRITCHLEY: again a myth

00:20:56,570 → 00:20:58,739

IAN CRITCHLEY: that the police has perpetuated in the

00:20:58,740 → 00:21:01,889

IAN CRITCHLEY: past where we have almost prevented

00:21:01,890 → 00:21:03,719

IAN CRITCHLEY: young people and children receiving

00:21:03,720 → 00:21:05,519

IAN CRITCHLEY: therapy and counselling, saying it will

00:21:05,520 → 00:21:08,459

IAN CRITCHLEY: harm any criminal trial — it

00:21:08,460 → 00:21:10,469

IAN CRITCHLEY: doesn't. We need to deal carefully with,

00:21:10,470 → 00:21:12,059

IAN CRITCHLEY: obviously, any third-party material, but

00:21:12,060 → 00:21:14,789

IAN CRITCHLEY: there is good process in place around

00:21:14,790 → 00:21:16,469

IAN CRITCHLEY: that. And of course, within the Victims'

00:21:16,470 → 00:21:18,659

IAN CRITCHLEY: Code, knowledge and use of special

00:21:18,660 → 00:21:20,789

IAN CRITCHLEY: measures as well. So a really, really

00:21:20,790 → 00:21:23,759

IAN CRITCHLEY: important piece of legislation

00:21:23,760 → 00:21:25,709

IAN CRITCHLEY: for us, particularly when it comes to how

00:21:25,710 → 00:21:27,329

IAN CRITCHLEY: we deal with child victims.

00:21:27,330 → 00:21:29,769

PRODUCER: And I asked Simon to explain what gaps there

00:21:29,770 → 00:21:31,469

PRODUCER: are in the Victim's Code.

00:21:31,470 → 00:21:32,849

SIMON BAILEY: I think probably the most the most

00:21:32,850 → 00:21:34,523

SIMON BAILEY: important thing is — and I know IICSA were

00:21:34,524 → 00:21:36,839

SIMON BAILEY: aware of this — is the concerns around

00:21:36,840 → 00:21:39,329

SIMON BAILEY: access to special measures and how actually

00:21:39,330 → 00:21:42,179

SIMON BAILEY: the quality of witnesses' evidence

00:21:42,180 → 00:21:44,939

SIMON BAILEY: to the court is enhanced by affording them

00:21:44,940 → 00:21:46,529

SIMON BAILEY: access to special measures.

00:21:46,530 → 00:21:48,269

SIMON BAILEY: So again, I think it's all picked up in

00:21:48,270 → 00:21:49,383

SIMON BAILEY: that compliance with the Victims' Code.

00:21:50,470 → 00:21:53,489

SIMON BAILEY: The code is not being consistently

00:21:53,490 → 00:21:55,139

SIMON BAILEY: applied and followed.

00:21:55,140 → 00:21:57,539

SIMON BAILEY: There were concerns around access to

00:21:57,540 → 00:21:59,669

SIMON BAILEY: special measures, which were all designed

00:21:59,670 → 00:22:00,989

SIMON BAILEY: around improving the quality of the

00:22:00,990 → 00:22:03,329

SIMON BAILEY: victim's evidence to the court.

00:22:03,330 → 00:22:06,869

SIMON BAILEY: So, that needs to be to be looked at.

00:22:06,870 → 00:22:09,989

SIMON BAILEY: And, I believe in June of last

00:22:09,990 → 00:22:12,237

SIMON BAILEY: year, the government responded to the

00:22:12,238 → 00:22:14,969

SIMON BAILEY: consultation and talked about enshrining

00:22:14,970 → 00:22:16,679

SIMON BAILEY: the Victims' Code into law.

00:22:16,680 → 00:22:18,959

SIMON BAILEY: So again, I think that's a positive step

00:22:18,960 → 00:22:19,919

SIMON BAILEY: forward.

00:22:19,920 → 00:22:22,409

PRODUCER: Adjacent to the changes around limitation are

00:22:22,410 → 00:22:24,989

PRODUCER: the recommendations on making amends to victims

00:22:24,990 → 00:22:26,639

PRODUCER: and survivors.

00:22:26,640 → 00:22:28,829

PRODUCER: These include changes to the Criminal Injuries

00:22:28,830 → 00:22:31,619

PRODUCER: Compensation Scheme and setting up a single

00:22:31,620 → 00:22:32,939

PRODUCER: redress scheme.

00:22:32,940 → 00:22:35,279

PRODUCER: I asked Tomi Ogundele, one of the lawyers

00:22:35,280 → 00:22:37,439

PRODUCER: within the NSPCC specialising in child

00:22:37,440 → 00:22:40,289

PRODUCER: protection law, to outline the proposed changes

00:22:40,290 → 00:22:41,819

PRODUCER: to redress.

00:22:41,820 → 00:22:44,729

TOMI OGUNDELE: So when it comes to redress: currently, if

00:22:44,730 → 00:22:46,739

TOMI OGUNDELE: an individual was abused as a child in

00:22:46,740 → 00:22:49,349

TOMI OGUNDELE: England and Wales, there are three ways

00:22:49,350 → 00:22:51,449

TOMI OGUNDELE: they can seek compensation.

00:22:51,450 → 00:22:53,849

TOMI OGUNDELE: This is by making a legal claim against

00:22:53,850 → 00:22:55,326

TOMI OGUNDELE: their abuser in the civil court; through

00:22:56,550 → 00:22:58,409

TOMI OGUNDELE: the criminal court, if their abuser is

00:22:58,410 → 00:23:01,379

TOMI OGUNDELE: convicted; or from the Criminal Injuries

00:23:01,380 → 00:23:02,759

TOMI OGUNDELE: Compensation Authority.

00:23:03,820 → 00:23:05,649

TOMI OGUNDELE: There was acknowledgement in IICSA's final

00:23:05,650 → 00:23:08,499

TOMI OGUNDELE: report that victims and survivors were

00:23:08,500 → 00:23:11,019

TOMI OGUNDELE: dissatisfied with the processes of civil

00:23:11,020 → 00:23:14,019

TOMI OGUNDELE: litigation and criminal compensation,

00:23:14,020 → 00:23:16,359

TOMI OGUNDELE: and that they had had negative experiences

00:23:16,360 → 00:23:17,680

TOMI OGUNDELE: with seeking redress.

00:23:18,820 → 00:23:21,279

TOMI OGUNDELE: So the inquiry recommends that the UK

00:23:21,280 → 00:23:23,919

TOMI OGUNDELE: government establishes a single redress

00:23:23,920 → 00:23:26,949

TOMI OGUNDELE: scheme in England and Wales, taking

00:23:26,950 → 00:23:30,039

TOMI OGUNDELE: into account devolved responsibilities.

00:23:30,040 → 00:23:32,199

TOMI OGUNDELE: The recommendation outlines who would be

00:23:32,200 → 00:23:35,499

TOMI OGUNDELE: eligible to apply. So essentially, victims

00:23:35,500 → 00:23:38,079

TOMI OGUNDELE: and survivors of child sexual abuse and

00:23:38,080 → 00:23:39,639

TOMI OGUNDELE: exploitation.

00:23:39,640 → 00:23:41,289

TOMI OGUNDELE: There is a requirement that there must be

00:23:41,290 → 00:23:43,989

TOMI OGUNDELE: clear connection to state or non-state

00:23:43,990 → 00:23:47,169

TOMI OGUNDELE: institutions in England and Wales.

00:23:47,170 → 00:23:49,749

TOMI OGUNDELE: There would be a deduction of any previous

00:23:49,750 → 00:23:52,659

TOMI OGUNDELE: award from any payments under the scheme.

00:23:52,660 → 00:23:55,419

TOMI OGUNDELE: And finally, applicants where their civil

00:23:55,420 → 00:23:57,549

TOMI OGUNDELE: claims were previously rejected would be

00:23:57,550 → 00:23:58,869

TOMI OGUNDELE: excluded from applying.

00:23:59,920 → 00:24:02,259

TOMI OGUNDELE: The scheme should provide payments to

00:24:02,260 → 00:24:04,539

TOMI OGUNDELE: eligible applicants through a two tier

00:24:04,540 → 00:24:07,569

TOMI OGUNDELE: system based on a fixed flat rate

00:24:07,570 → 00:24:10,209

TOMI OGUNDELE: recognition payment, with the option to

00:24:10,210 → 00:24:13,089

TOMI OGUNDELE: apply for a second tier payment.

00:24:13,090 → 00:24:15,699

TOMI OGUNDELE: The application process must be accessible

00:24:15,700 → 00:24:18,039

TOMI OGUNDELE: and straightforward, should run for five

00:24:18,040 → 00:24:20,679

TOMI OGUNDELE: years, and should be funded by central and

00:24:20,680 → 00:24:22,689

TOMI OGUNDELE: local government, with voluntary

00:24:22,690 → 00:24:25,299

TOMI OGUNDELE: contributions sought from non-state

00:24:25,300 → 00:24:27,069

TOMI OGUNDELE: institutions.

00:24:27,070 → 00:24:29,409

TOMI OGUNDELE: The redress scheme is not a substitute for

00:24:29,410 → 00:24:32,319

TOMI OGUNDELE: criminal or civil justice systems, and it

00:24:32,320 → 00:24:34,449

TOMI OGUNDELE: does not replace the Criminal Injuries

00:24:34,450 → 00:24:36,160

TOMI OGUNDELE: Compensation Authority.

00:24:39,580 → 00:24:42,519

PRODUCER: Thanks to Tomi Ogundele, Simon Bailey and

00:24:42,520 → 00:24:43,929

PRODUCER: Ian Critchley.

00:24:43,930 → 00:24:45,369

PRODUCER: And thank you for listening to the

00:24:45,370 → 00:24:47,949

PRODUCER: Recommendations for Change podcast series from

00:24:47,950 → 00:24:50,049

PRODUCER: NSPCC Learning.

00:24:50,050 → 00:24:51,669

PRODUCER: In this series, we've explored the

00:24:51,670 → 00:24:54,099

PRODUCER: recommendations laid out by the Independent

00:24:54,100 → 00:24:56,949

PRODUCER: Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse and how

00:24:56,950 → 00:24:59,409

PRODUCER: they might contribute to a more robust, more

00:24:59,410 → 00:25:02,439

PRODUCER: effective child protection system in the UK.

00:25:02,440 → 00:25:04,869

PRODUCER: For more information about any of the specific

00:25:04,870 → 00:25:07,389

PRODUCER: topics covered in the series, we recommend

00:25:07,390 → 00:25:10,089

PRODUCER: reading the full IICSA final report.

00:25:10,090 → 00:25:12,339

PRODUCER: You can also find more safeguarding and child

00:25:12,340 → 00:25:14,889

PRODUCER: protection resources on the NSPCC Learning

00:25:14,890 → 00:25:15,890

PRODUCER: website.

00:25:16,720 → 00:25:18,909

PRODUCER: If you've been affected by any of the issues

00:25:18,910 → 00:25:21,369

PRODUCER: raised in this podcast, you can reach out to

00:25:21,370 → 00:25:24,549

PRODUCER: the NSPCC Helpline for support, call

00:25:24,550 → 00:25:25,653

PRODUCER: 0808 800 5000

00:25:27,640 → 00:25:31,240

PRODUCER: or email help@nspcc.org.uk.

00:25:32,290 → 00:25:34,749

PRODUCER: This podcast series was produced in Autumn

00:25:34,750 → 00:25:36,309

PRODUCER: 2023.

00:25:36,310 → 00:25:38,319

PRODUCER: All information was correct at the time of

00:25:38,320 → 00:25:40,809

PRODUCER: recording, but the world of child protection is

00:25:40,810 → 00:25:41,810

PRODUCER: ever-changing.

00:25:42,190 → 00:25:45,009

PRODUCER: To stay up to date, visit the NSPCC Learning

00:25:45,010 → 00:25:50,170

PRODUCER: website at nspcc.org.uk/learning.

Sorry, your browser isn't supported.

Page load failed