PRODUCER: Please note this podcast contains mention of
PRODUCER: child sexual abuse.
PRODUCER: In 2015, the Independent Inquiry into Child
PRODUCER: Sexual Abuse was set up to investigate where
PRODUCER: institutions failed to protect children in
PRODUCER: their care.
PRODUCER: The inquiry's final report, published in
PRODUCER: October 2022, laid out a set of
PRODUCER: powerful recommendations to address past
PRODUCER: failings and protect future generations of
PRODUCER: children from abuse.
PRODUCER: Recommendations for Change is a five-part
PRODUCER: podcast series from NSPCC Learning, examining
PRODUCER: why these recommendations are needed, how
PRODUCER: they'll work if implemented, and what impact
PRODUCER: they will have on the prevention of child
PRODUCER: sexual abuse.
PRODUCER: Episode five: justice and redress.
PRODUCER: The criminal and civil justice systems play an
PRODUCER: important role in the way the state responds to
PRODUCER: child sexual abuse.
PRODUCER: However, many of IICSA's investigations feature
PRODUCER: details of inadequate responses from the
PRODUCER: police, Crown Prosecution Service and courts.
PRODUCER: Through the IICSA Truth Project, victims and
PRODUCER: survivors were able to share their firsthand
PRODUCER: experiences of the justice system, from initial
PRODUCER: disclosure of abuse, through investigation by
PRODUCER: the police force or CPS, and then to court.
PRODUCER: The IICSA final report summarises the
PRODUCER: challenges they faced in pursuit of justice,
PRODUCER: including failures by police forces to fully
PRODUCER: investigate reports of child sexual abuse and
PRODUCER: delays in court proceedings, which can be
PRODUCER: stressful and traumatising for victims and
PRODUCER: survivors.
PRODUCER: In this final episode of Recommendations for
PRODUCER: Change, we'll be exploring how the information
PRODUCER: and recommendations proposed in the IICSA final
PRODUCER: report might improve victims and survivors
PRODUCER: experiences of the criminal justice system.
PRODUCER: We'll also be looking at proposed changes to
PRODUCER: the available schemes of compensation and
PRODUCER: redress.
PRODUCER: The first person I spoke to about policing and
PRODUCER: the criminal justice system was Ian Critchley.
PRODUCER: Ian is the National Police Chiefs Council lead
PRODUCER: for child protection and was previously the
PRODUCER: deputy chief constable of Merseyside Police.
IAN CRITCHLEY: My role, so this can be broken down into
IAN CRITCHLEY: three or four key areas.
IAN CRITCHLEY: One is making sure that policing
IAN CRITCHLEY: consistently develops and enhances its
IAN CRITCHLEY: approach to prevent child abuse,
IAN CRITCHLEY: to give confidence to victims — both
IAN CRITCHLEY: children and adult survivors — to come
IAN CRITCHLEY: forward and to bring more offenders to
IAN CRITCHLEY: justice. So that's a really critical area
IAN CRITCHLEY: for us. And clearly we take much learning
IAN CRITCHLEY: from from IICSA around that.
IAN CRITCHLEY: Two is to enhance partnerships at the
IAN CRITCHLEY: national and local levels.
IAN CRITCHLEY: I work very much with national key
IAN CRITCHLEY: stakeholders, both within government,
IAN CRITCHLEY: statutory partners, but also obviously
IAN CRITCHLEY: charitable organisations and third sector
IAN CRITCHLEY: like the NSPCC as well.
IAN CRITCHLEY: And thirdly, I work very closely with the
IAN CRITCHLEY: College of Policing and the Vulnerability
IAN CRITCHLEY: Knowledge Practice Programme to make sure
IAN CRITCHLEY: that we are converting strategy and
IAN CRITCHLEY: reviews into action that makes
IAN CRITCHLEY: a real difference at every level, whether
IAN CRITCHLEY: that's our specialist child protection
IAN CRITCHLEY: teams, whether that is our front line
IAN CRITCHLEY: officers — you know, new 20,000 officers
IAN CRITCHLEY: come into the organisation — contact
IAN CRITCHLEY: centre staff; everybody within the system
IAN CRITCHLEY: knows their role, also knows the partner
IAN CRITCHLEY: role, so we can work together to best
IAN CRITCHLEY: protect children from abuse that we know
IAN CRITCHLEY: will have a lifelong impact.
PRODUCER: Ian began by giving an overview of the
PRODUCER: recommendations and findings in the IICSA final
PRODUCER: report relating to the justice system.
IAN CRITCHLEY: There is clearly within the 20 key
IAN CRITCHLEY: recommendations, requirements to review
IAN CRITCHLEY: the joint inspection of the Victims' Code
IAN CRITCHLEY: and also removal of the three year time
IAN CRITCHLEY: limitations for civil claims as well;
IAN CRITCHLEY: recognising the impact that child
IAN CRITCHLEY: abuse has on victims, and also
IAN CRITCHLEY: timeliness in terms of confidence to
IAN CRITCHLEY: report, as well.
IAN CRITCHLEY: So I think they are some of the key
IAN CRITCHLEY: recommendations within there.
IAN CRITCHLEY: I remind myself of what was the evidence
IAN CRITCHLEY: that was given and provided across the
IAN CRITCHLEY: criminal justice system, and it is at this
IAN CRITCHLEY: point where I continue to reiterate my
IAN CRITCHLEY: apology on behalf of policing and the
IAN CRITCHLEY: failures that took place over many years
IAN CRITCHLEY: in relation to the way we
IAN CRITCHLEY: failed to believe,
IAN CRITCHLEY: listen, to deal with timeliness
IAN CRITCHLEY: of investigation, to signpost to
IAN CRITCHLEY: victim support services,
IAN CRITCHLEY: to make sure our language was appropriate
IAN CRITCHLEY: at all times and was no way victim
IAN CRITCHLEY: blaming, to provide communications in
IAN CRITCHLEY: relation to how quick our investigations
IAN CRITCHLEY: were progressing or not as well.
IAN CRITCHLEY: And, I also remind myself that we are part
IAN CRITCHLEY: and parcel of the wider criminal justice system.
IAN CRITCHLEY: So CPS, there was evidence given
IAN CRITCHLEY: within the Truth Project around the need
IAN CRITCHLEY: for CPS to give further information around
IAN CRITCHLEY: verdicts, sentencing, decisions not to
IAN CRITCHLEY: prosecute.
IAN CRITCHLEY: The court system, quite frankly, is just
IAN CRITCHLEY: too slow for victims once they do make
IAN CRITCHLEY: that difficult decision to disclose, years
IAN CRITCHLEY: and years sometimes in the waiting.
IAN CRITCHLEY: And then, I read from from
IAN CRITCHLEY: one victim, Bethany, within the Truth
IAN CRITCHLEY: Project, whose quote: "the sentence
IAN CRITCHLEY: massively diminished the crime.
IAN CRITCHLEY: It makes me feel worthless." So, again,
IAN CRITCHLEY: very careful around when we talk about
IAN CRITCHLEY: outcomes, that this is lifelong and a
IAN CRITCHLEY: criminal justice element is just one bit
IAN CRITCHLEY: of that.
PRODUCER: Focusing in on the police force.
PRODUCER: The police are often the first to be told about
PRODUCER: an incident of child sexual abuse.
PRODUCER: Of the IICSA Truth Project participants who did
PRODUCER: disclose their abuse at the time it was
PRODUCER: happening, 33% disclosed to
PRODUCER: the police. It's therefore critical that police
PRODUCER: forces respond appropriately to such reports.
PRODUCER: Unfortunately, as you just alluded to, a number
PRODUCER: of victims and survivors talked about the
PRODUCER: police not taking formal action after reports
PRODUCER: were made. Please can you explain where the
PRODUCER: police force has gone wrong in responding to
PRODUCER: child sexual abuse in the past, and what needs
PRODUCER: to be done to improve responses to CSA going
PRODUCER: forward?
IAN CRITCHLEY: Yeah. If I touch, first of all, I suppose
IAN CRITCHLEY: on what we're doing in policing and what
IAN CRITCHLEY: was identified in IICSA. So, really
IAN CRITCHLEY: interesting fact that, you know, up until
IAN CRITCHLEY: 1988 the uncorroborated evidence of a
IAN CRITCHLEY: child was inadmissible [in court]. You
IAN CRITCHLEY: know, a myth— a criminal justice system
IAN CRITCHLEY: that perpetuated a myth about
IAN CRITCHLEY: children. We didn't link perpetrators
IAN CRITCHLEY: together. So we might have had an
IAN CRITCHLEY: investigation 'A' over here — it might
IAN CRITCHLEY: even have been in the same force — or
IAN CRITCHLEY: investigation 'B' over here, but not
IAN CRITCHLEY: talking to each other. Perfect case of
IAN CRITCHLEY: that was obviously the appalling offences
IAN CRITCHLEY: committed by Jimmy Saville, around it,
IAN CRITCHLEY: which led to obviously developments and us
IAN CRITCHLEY: enhancing both the police national
IAN CRITCHLEY: database but also Operation Hydrant around it. A
IAN CRITCHLEY: hierarchy that existed in police forces
IAN CRITCHLEY: where concerns by our investigators were
IAN CRITCHLEY: failed to be able to be acted on by
IAN CRITCHLEY: strategic leaders.
IAN CRITCHLEY: I talked about a victim blaming and
IAN CRITCHLEY: belief: we historically have arrested
IAN CRITCHLEY: children who were seeking to report crimes
IAN CRITCHLEY: of abuse, leaving the abuser free to
IAN CRITCHLEY: continue to have perpetrate their
IAN CRITCHLEY: appalling crimes. Areas like missing, we
IAN CRITCHLEY: weren't picking up on the warning signs.
IAN CRITCHLEY: So areas like missing, failing to
IAN CRITCHLEY: undertake quality return interviews and
IAN CRITCHLEY: really not identifying the scale and
IAN CRITCHLEY: nature of it, particularly around
IAN CRITCHLEY: group-based offending of course.
IAN CRITCHLEY: In some areas, we were paying deference
IAN CRITCHLEY: to persons in positions of prominence as
IAN CRITCHLEY: well, who escaped justice.
IAN CRITCHLEY: Making wrong decisions by police and CPS
IAN CRITCHLEY: to prosecute — I've actually just chaired a
IAN CRITCHLEY: child sexual abuse referral panel.
IAN CRITCHLEY: And we've also now got since 2013
IAN CRITCHLEY: the right to review. So giving an
IAN CRITCHLEY: opportunity for victims to review NFA
IAN CRITCHLEY: decisions by police and the CPS.
IAN CRITCHLEY: Of course, we want to make sure we make
IAN CRITCHLEY: the right decisions in the first place.
IAN CRITCHLEY: What are we doing around that?
IAN CRITCHLEY: We're working very closely with the College
IAN CRITCHLEY: of Policing to enhance our training of
IAN CRITCHLEY: both our specialist staff and our
IAN CRITCHLEY: frontline staff. IICSA makes specific
IAN CRITCHLEY: recommendations in reference to special
IAN CRITCHLEY: measures for children.
IAN CRITCHLEY: So, of course, we brought in achieving
IAN CRITCHLEY: best evidence interviews.
IAN CRITCHLEY: And now, a victim's testimony
IAN CRITCHLEY: can be obviously played in terms of the
IAN CRITCHLEY: digital recording of that, but we've also
IAN CRITCHLEY: now progressed on to, in some areas, the
IAN CRITCHLEY: examination and cross-examination also
IAN CRITCHLEY: being done as recorded, as well, to
IAN CRITCHLEY: again assist a victim within that
IAN CRITCHLEY: area. The Victims' Code: IICSA makes
IAN CRITCHLEY: specific reference to the Victims' Code
IAN CRITCHLEY: and the 12 rights within there, first
IAN CRITCHLEY: published in 2005, I think.
IAN CRITCHLEY: I think what's key within there, there is
IAN CRITCHLEY: a right for victims to have a referral to
IAN CRITCHLEY: support for victims. Yet IICSA found that
IAN CRITCHLEY: very few victims were getting advocacy and
IAN CRITCHLEY: support during an investigation stage.
IAN CRITCHLEY: But, as we know, victims need different
IAN CRITCHLEY: types of support, particularly around
IAN CRITCHLEY: their mental health and well-being, and
IAN CRITCHLEY: that just wasn't being provided or
IAN CRITCHLEY: signposted.
IAN CRITCHLEY: They have a right to be provided the
IAN CRITCHLEY: information about the investigation, the
IAN CRITCHLEY: trial and compensation, and this wasn't
IAN CRITCHLEY: happening. They have a right to be
IAN CRITCHLEY: informed about the outcome and appeal and
IAN CRITCHLEY: how the offender will be managed,
IAN CRITCHLEY: as well. And a right to have the knowledge
IAN CRITCHLEY: and use of special measures as well.
IAN CRITCHLEY: So good reference in IICSA, to make
IAN CRITCHLEY: sure that we are fulfilling what is
IAN CRITCHLEY: already within the Victims'
IAN CRITCHLEY: Code and it is our responsibility to make
IAN CRITCHLEY: sure is undertaken and progressed in a
IAN CRITCHLEY: really professional, caring, empathetic
IAN CRITCHLEY: way.
PRODUCER: You mentioned survivors have a right to
PRODUCER: advocacy during investigations, but that very
PRODUCER: few victims and survivors are getting that
PRODUCER: advocacy.
PRODUCER: How do we improve access to advocacy during an
PRODUCER: investigation of child sexual abuse?
IAN CRITCHLEY: I think there's a real challenge here in
IAN CRITCHLEY: terms of advocacy, whether that's for
IAN CRITCHLEY: children, whether that's for adult survivors,
IAN CRITCHLEY: I see it across a wider area of
IAN CRITCHLEY: vulnerability around advocates for
IAN CRITCHLEY: domestic abuse as well.
IAN CRITCHLEY: There is a critical role here for police
IAN CRITCHLEY: and crime commissioners, to make sure
IAN CRITCHLEY: there is good joined-up funding streams
IAN CRITCHLEY: for the advocacy of such
IAN CRITCHLEY: a service. I do believe — and one of the
IAN CRITCHLEY: recommendations from IICSA was a joint
IAN CRITCHLEY: inspection of the Victims' Code, and it
IAN CRITCHLEY: does also obviously feature in terms of
IAN CRITCHLEY: HMICFRS inspections as to how they are
IAN CRITCHLEY: applying the Victims' Code, but clearly it
IAN CRITCHLEY: goes beyond the policing responsibility
IAN CRITCHLEY: here to other statutory
IAN CRITCHLEY: partners as well.
IAN CRITCHLEY: I do think there needs to be a national
IAN CRITCHLEY: review of both the funding
IAN CRITCHLEY: and the provision of children's and
IAN CRITCHLEY: adult survivors advocacy service,
IAN CRITCHLEY: particularly around therapeutic support.
IAN CRITCHLEY: We know only too well the pressure that's
IAN CRITCHLEY: on services like CAMHS as well.
IAN CRITCHLEY: And we know only too well that if we don't
IAN CRITCHLEY: catch it early, and we don't intervene
IAN CRITCHLEY: early with the right level of support
IAN CRITCHLEY: and intervention, then we know that harm
IAN CRITCHLEY: to that young person or adult survivor
IAN CRITCHLEY: will get much, much worse.
IAN CRITCHLEY: And there will be a cost to that.
IAN CRITCHLEY: There will be a financial cost, because
IAN CRITCHLEY: that will mean that that person will
IAN CRITCHLEY: require services for a long time that
IAN CRITCHLEY: haven't been provided at the earliest
IAN CRITCHLEY: opportunity.
IAN CRITCHLEY: But most sadly, there's obviously human
IAN CRITCHLEY: cost of harm, and we will find that that
IAN CRITCHLEY: person, that victim of crime, will be in
IAN CRITCHLEY: and out of interventions for
IAN CRITCHLEY: a long time, if not for the rest of their
IAN CRITCHLEY: lives. So there's absolutely a moral
IAN CRITCHLEY: requirement and a human requirement on us
IAN CRITCHLEY: to improve the position that we're in now.
IAN CRITCHLEY: I've talked earlier on about the scale
IAN CRITCHLEY: of child abuse: we're now dealing with over
IAN CRITCHLEY: 100,000 crimes reported to us.
IAN CRITCHLEY: Each one of those persons is a victim in
IAN CRITCHLEY: their own right and absolutely deserves
IAN CRITCHLEY: the advocacy that will help them
IAN CRITCHLEY: through not just any criminal justice
IAN CRITCHLEY: process that takes place.
IAN CRITCHLEY: And that is important.
IAN CRITCHLEY: And, you know, being confident
IAN CRITCHLEY: that they've been dealt with in the most
IAN CRITCHLEY: appropriate way is important, but much
IAN CRITCHLEY: beyond, much beyond that.
IAN CRITCHLEY: And I think there's a real stretch and
IAN CRITCHLEY: strain on the advocacy service that needs
IAN CRITCHLEY: a complete review and an overhaul that's
IAN CRITCHLEY: recommended by IICSA.
PRODUCER: In our conversation, Ian identified areas for
PRODUCER: improvements that sit outside of IICSA's 20
PRODUCER: main recommendations, particularly the need for
PRODUCER: police services to improve the way they respond
PRODUCER: to victims and survivors.
PRODUCER: Simon Bailey was Ian's predecessor as National
PRODUCER: Police Chiefs Council lead for Child
PRODUCER: Protection, serving in post for eight years.
PRODUCER: He is now a member of the Child Safeguarding
PRODUCER: Practice Review Panel.
PRODUCER: I spoke to Simon about the same topic: what
PRODUCER: changes are needed to improve the experiences
PRODUCER: of the criminal justice system for victims and
PRODUCER: survivors of child sexual abuse?
SIMON BAILEY: For me, it starts with with
SIMON BAILEY: the basics.
SIMON BAILEY: And first and foremost — it's something I
SIMON BAILEY: feel very strongly about, I feel
SIMON BAILEY: passionately about, and have done my best
SIMON BAILEY: to champion — and that's the importance of
SIMON BAILEY: victims knowing that at the point
SIMON BAILEY: of reporting their abuse,
SIMON BAILEY: that they are believed.
SIMON BAILEY: There is really significant academic
SIMON BAILEY: research that has been done that talks
SIMON BAILEY: about one of the biggest hurdles for
SIMON BAILEY: victim/survivors to overcome is: "am
SIMON BAILEY: I going to be believed to the point of
SIMON BAILEY: reporting my abuse?" And knowing that
SIMON BAILEY: they are reporting into a justice system
SIMON BAILEY: that from the— at the start of that report
SIMON BAILEY: — and I will clarify that — they are going
SIMON BAILEY: to be believed, is essential.
SIMON BAILEY: And victims, I think, are
SIMON BAILEY: owed that right.
SIMON BAILEY: However — and this is where it's
SIMON BAILEY: nuanced and it's important that there is
SIMON BAILEY: real clarity around this — once the
SIMON BAILEY: report has been taken, once the evidence
SIMON BAILEY: has been secured as best it can be at that
SIMON BAILEY: point, thereafter there
SIMON BAILEY: has to be an investigation without fear or
SIMON BAILEY: favour, and police officers, police
SIMON BAILEY: staff, then need to go wherever the
SIMON BAILEY: evidence will take them.
SIMON BAILEY: And I have not spoken to a victim/survivor
SIMON BAILEY: that doesn't agree with that approach.
SIMON BAILEY: It is not a blind belief.
SIMON BAILEY: It's important the victim come forward
SIMON BAILEY: knowing that they will be believed, but
SIMON BAILEY: also knowing that thereafter there will be
SIMON BAILEY: a completely impartial investigation.
SIMON BAILEY: And I think that has to be step one.
SIMON BAILEY: Step two: there needs to be,
SIMON BAILEY: throughout the course of the investigation
SIMON BAILEY: that the investigating officers, the
SIMON BAILEY: investigating team, keep
SIMON BAILEY: the victim survivor fully updated on
SIMON BAILEY: progress. If they are saying they're going
SIMON BAILEY: to call them at 11 o'clock tomorrow, they
SIMON BAILEY: need to make that call.
SIMON BAILEY: They need to keep them updated on the
SIMON BAILEY: progress. And even if it's a call that says
SIMON BAILEY: "there's nothing more I can tell you this amount
SIMON BAILEY: of time, or there are no new updates", but
SIMON BAILEY: just that engagement is so, so
SIMON BAILEY: important.
SIMON BAILEY: And then, as the investigation progresses
SIMON BAILEY: and they get to the point of the Crown
SIMON BAILEY: Prosecution Service making that decision,
SIMON BAILEY: my personal view is and it's so important
SIMON BAILEY: that the Crown Prosecution Service should
SIMON BAILEY: be making the decisions based about — a
SIMON BAILEY: decision to charge or not — based upon
SIMON BAILEY: the evidence that's in front of them.
SIMON BAILEY: And they shouldn't be taking a bookmaker's
SIMON BAILEY: approach. It shouldn't be based upon what's
SIMON BAILEY: the likelihood here?
SIMON BAILEY: If there is evidence there of abuse, then
SIMON BAILEY: that evidence should be being put before a
SIMON BAILEY: jury for a jury then to decide.
SIMON BAILEY: And then the final element for me has got
SIMON BAILEY: to be that the criminal justice system, at
SIMON BAILEY: this moment in time, is taking too long to
SIMON BAILEY: deal with these cases.
SIMON BAILEY: The statistics are there in the public
SIMON BAILEY: domain, the number of days it is taking for
SIMON BAILEY: the moment of report to charge, then to
SIMON BAILEY: a trial. We have got to speed up the
SIMON BAILEY: process, and we've got to be looking at the
SIMON BAILEY: pilots that are taking place in terms of
SIMON BAILEY: the dedicated sexual offending courts, I
SIMON BAILEY: think that's really important, because the
SIMON BAILEY: staff that are dealing with these cases,
SIMON BAILEY: the court staff, the prosecutors, should be
SIMON BAILEY: aware of the trauma that the victim has has
SIMON BAILEY: suffered and they should be equipped to be
SIMON BAILEY: able to deal with that.
SIMON BAILEY: And the courtroom should not become a
SIMON BAILEY: hostile environment for victims and
SIMON BAILEY: survivors of of abuse.
SIMON BAILEY: Yes, you have to go through the judicial
SIMON BAILEY: process. I completely get that.
SIMON BAILEY: But the bottom line is that it should be
SIMON BAILEY: done in such a way that the court staff,
SIMON BAILEY: the environment, appreciates the trauma of
SIMON BAILEY: what's happened and they — the
SIMON BAILEY: victims/survivors — should be afforded the
SIMON BAILEY: appropriate level of support and the
SIMON BAILEY: awareness as they go into it.
SIMON BAILEY: And there are ways of being able to deal
SIMON BAILEY: with that. And you'll be aware of the conversations
SIMON BAILEY: that have taken place around the pre-recording
SIMON BAILEY: of evidence and what that might look like.
SIMON BAILEY: So I think that if we get those principles
SIMON BAILEY: right, around belief, but not a blind
SIMON BAILEY: belief; around the routine of keeping
SIMON BAILEY: victim/survivors up to date and aware of
SIMON BAILEY: the investigation as it goes; when the CPS
SIMON BAILEY: are making the decisions, let's make sure
SIMON BAILEY: it's a merits-based decision, not a
SIMON BAILEY: bookmaker's decision; and let's then make
SIMON BAILEY: sure that when a charge is made, that
SIMON BAILEY: actually the judicial process is then
SIMON BAILEY: cognisant of trauma that what is then the
SIMON BAILEY: witness, the victim, the witness has then
SIMON BAILEY: endured, and how you make the system
SIMON BAILEY: as supportive as possible.
PRODUCER: What steps would you take to make that system
PRODUCER: more supportive?
SIMON BAILEY: I think the key thing is that the
SIMON BAILEY: specialists working within those courts
SIMON BAILEY: needs to be trauma-informed.
SIMON BAILEY: They need to have that training.
SIMON BAILEY: Specialist, independent sexual violence
SIMON BAILEY: advisors need to be made available
SIMON BAILEY: to the victims as well.
SIMON BAILEY: And I think that's really important that
SIMON BAILEY: they understand that. And that when you are
SIMON BAILEY: then dealing within that, in that
SIMON BAILEY: particular court setting, you need to make
SIMON BAILEY: sure that the support is right
SIMON BAILEY: there for the victims; that the staff
SIMON BAILEY: understand, that they have the right
SIMON BAILEY: support, have an appreciation of what
SIMON BAILEY: those victim/survivors have been exposed
SIMON BAILEY: to, what what it's been like for them, the
SIMON BAILEY: courage that they have had to to come
SIMON BAILEY: forward and report it.
SIMON BAILEY: And, on the back of that, you then create a
SIMON BAILEY: very, very different environment.
PRODUCER: Finally, is there any specific advice you would
PRODUCER: give to professionals working across the
PRODUCER: criminal justice system — in policing, in the
PRODUCER: courtroom — on how to respond to the
PRODUCER: IICSA findings?
SIMON BAILEY: I think the the most important thing
SIMON BAILEY: for me, having operated on
SIMON BAILEY: the policing side of the criminal justice
SIMON BAILEY: system for 35 years, is
SIMON BAILEY: to realise that you are not just dealing
SIMON BAILEY: with a case number.
SIMON BAILEY: You are dealing with a person.
SIMON BAILEY: You're dealing with a victim.
SIMON BAILEY: And that's why recommendation 14
SIMON BAILEY: of the inquiry talks about the
SIMON BAILEY: importance of compliance with the Victims'
SIMON BAILEY: code. And I think that is
SIMON BAILEY: so important. There needs to
SIMON BAILEY: be further work done around
SIMON BAILEY: that, and a joint inspection regarding
SIMON BAILEY: compliance with the Victims' Code.
SIMON BAILEY: There are some gaps and I think IICSA has
SIMON BAILEY: identified gaps.
SIMON BAILEY: There needs to be a review to look at
SIMON BAILEY: the whole systems approach to the criminal
SIMON BAILEY: justice response of what is taking
SIMON BAILEY: place and the, you know, the recommendation
SIMON BAILEY: is clear.
SIMON BAILEY: The inspectorates carry out that regular
SIMON BAILEY: joint inspection on victims' issues,
SIMON BAILEY: because actually it's really important that
SIMON BAILEY: the the victim/survivors are made
SIMON BAILEY: to feel that
SIMON BAILEY: they are being treated as a person rather
SIMON BAILEY: than just another case that's going through
SIMON BAILEY: the court system.
PRODUCER: During our conversations, both Ian and Simon
PRODUCER: mentioned the Victims' Code.
PRODUCER: Recommendation 14 of the IICSA final report
PRODUCER: asks the UK government to arrange for a joint
PRODUCER: inspection of the compliance with the Victims'
PRODUCER: Code in relation to victims and survivors of
PRODUCER: child sexual abuse.
PRODUCER: Here's Ian Critchley again to briefly explain
PRODUCER: what the Victims' Code is and how it protects
PRODUCER: children.
IAN CRITCHLEY: The Victims' Code was brought in 2005.
IAN CRITCHLEY: It's a statutory mechanism: the rights of
IAN CRITCHLEY: all victims that needs to be delivered by
IAN CRITCHLEY: criminal justice partners, and I've
IAN CRITCHLEY: touched on some of those key rights
IAN CRITCHLEY: in terms of referral to support; the
IAN CRITCHLEY: victims being kept updated on
IAN CRITCHLEY: the investigation; being provided with
IAN CRITCHLEY: information about the trial and
IAN CRITCHLEY: compensation; being informed about the
IAN CRITCHLEY: outcomes and any, obviously, appeal.
IAN CRITCHLEY: But also how an offender is being managed,
IAN CRITCHLEY: if they are sentenced to a custodial
IAN CRITCHLEY: sentence, again, there are rights to be
IAN CRITCHLEY: informed of release around it.
IAN CRITCHLEY: Being informed about
IAN CRITCHLEY: therapeutic and counselling opportunities;
IAN CRITCHLEY: again a myth
IAN CRITCHLEY: that the police has perpetuated in the
IAN CRITCHLEY: past where we have almost prevented
IAN CRITCHLEY: young people and children receiving
IAN CRITCHLEY: therapy and counselling, saying it will
IAN CRITCHLEY: harm any criminal trial — it
IAN CRITCHLEY: doesn't. We need to deal carefully with,
IAN CRITCHLEY: obviously, any third-party material, but
IAN CRITCHLEY: there is good process in place around
IAN CRITCHLEY: that. And of course, within the Victims'
IAN CRITCHLEY: Code, knowledge and use of special
IAN CRITCHLEY: measures as well. So a really, really
IAN CRITCHLEY: important piece of legislation
IAN CRITCHLEY: for us, particularly when it comes to how
IAN CRITCHLEY: we deal with child victims.
PRODUCER: And I asked Simon to explain what gaps there
PRODUCER: are in the Victim's Code.
SIMON BAILEY: I think probably the most the most
SIMON BAILEY: important thing is — and I know IICSA were
SIMON BAILEY: aware of this — is the concerns around
SIMON BAILEY: access to special measures and how actually
SIMON BAILEY: the quality of witnesses' evidence
SIMON BAILEY: to the court is enhanced by affording them
SIMON BAILEY: access to special measures.
SIMON BAILEY: So again, I think it's all picked up in
SIMON BAILEY: that compliance with the Victims' Code.
SIMON BAILEY: The code is not being consistently
SIMON BAILEY: applied and followed.
SIMON BAILEY: There were concerns around access to
SIMON BAILEY: special measures, which were all designed
SIMON BAILEY: around improving the quality of the
SIMON BAILEY: victim's evidence to the court.
SIMON BAILEY: So, that needs to be to be looked at.
SIMON BAILEY: And, I believe in June of last
SIMON BAILEY: year, the government responded to the
SIMON BAILEY: consultation and talked about enshrining
SIMON BAILEY: the Victims' Code into law.
SIMON BAILEY: So again, I think that's a positive step
SIMON BAILEY: forward.
PRODUCER: Adjacent to the changes around limitation are
PRODUCER: the recommendations on making amends to victims
PRODUCER: and survivors.
PRODUCER: These include changes to the Criminal Injuries
PRODUCER: Compensation Scheme and setting up a single
PRODUCER: redress scheme.
PRODUCER: I asked Tomi Ogundele, one of the lawyers
PRODUCER: within the NSPCC specialising in child
PRODUCER: protection law, to outline the proposed changes
PRODUCER: to redress.
TOMI OGUNDELE: So when it comes to redress: currently, if
TOMI OGUNDELE: an individual was abused as a child in
TOMI OGUNDELE: England and Wales, there are three ways
TOMI OGUNDELE: they can seek compensation.
TOMI OGUNDELE: This is by making a legal claim against
TOMI OGUNDELE: their abuser in the civil court; through
TOMI OGUNDELE: the criminal court, if their abuser is
TOMI OGUNDELE: convicted; or from the Criminal Injuries
TOMI OGUNDELE: Compensation Authority.
TOMI OGUNDELE: There was acknowledgement in IICSA's final
TOMI OGUNDELE: report that victims and survivors were
TOMI OGUNDELE: dissatisfied with the processes of civil
TOMI OGUNDELE: litigation and criminal compensation,
TOMI OGUNDELE: and that they had had negative experiences
TOMI OGUNDELE: with seeking redress.
TOMI OGUNDELE: So the inquiry recommends that the UK
TOMI OGUNDELE: government establishes a single redress
TOMI OGUNDELE: scheme in England and Wales, taking
TOMI OGUNDELE: into account devolved responsibilities.
TOMI OGUNDELE: The recommendation outlines who would be
TOMI OGUNDELE: eligible to apply. So essentially, victims
TOMI OGUNDELE: and survivors of child sexual abuse and
TOMI OGUNDELE: exploitation.
TOMI OGUNDELE: There is a requirement that there must be
TOMI OGUNDELE: clear connection to state or non-state
TOMI OGUNDELE: institutions in England and Wales.
TOMI OGUNDELE: There would be a deduction of any previous
TOMI OGUNDELE: award from any payments under the scheme.
TOMI OGUNDELE: And finally, applicants where their civil
TOMI OGUNDELE: claims were previously rejected would be
TOMI OGUNDELE: excluded from applying.
TOMI OGUNDELE: The scheme should provide payments to
TOMI OGUNDELE: eligible applicants through a two tier
TOMI OGUNDELE: system based on a fixed flat rate
TOMI OGUNDELE: recognition payment, with the option to
TOMI OGUNDELE: apply for a second tier payment.
TOMI OGUNDELE: The application process must be accessible
TOMI OGUNDELE: and straightforward, should run for five
TOMI OGUNDELE: years, and should be funded by central and
TOMI OGUNDELE: local government, with voluntary
TOMI OGUNDELE: contributions sought from non-state
TOMI OGUNDELE: institutions.
TOMI OGUNDELE: The redress scheme is not a substitute for
TOMI OGUNDELE: criminal or civil justice systems, and it
TOMI OGUNDELE: does not replace the Criminal Injuries
TOMI OGUNDELE: Compensation Authority.
PRODUCER: Thanks to Tomi Ogundele, Simon Bailey and
PRODUCER: Ian Critchley.
PRODUCER: And thank you for listening to the
PRODUCER: Recommendations for Change podcast series from
PRODUCER: NSPCC Learning.
PRODUCER: In this series, we've explored the
PRODUCER: recommendations laid out by the Independent
PRODUCER: Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse and how
PRODUCER: they might contribute to a more robust, more
PRODUCER: effective child protection system in the UK.
PRODUCER: For more information about any of the specific
PRODUCER: topics covered in the series, we recommend
PRODUCER: reading the full IICSA final report.
PRODUCER: You can also find more safeguarding and child
PRODUCER: protection resources on the NSPCC Learning
PRODUCER: website.
PRODUCER: If you've been affected by any of the issues
PRODUCER: raised in this podcast, you can reach out to
PRODUCER: the NSPCC Helpline for support, call
PRODUCER: 0808 800 5000
PRODUCER: or email help@nspcc.org.uk.
PRODUCER: This podcast series was produced in Autumn
PRODUCER: 2023.
PRODUCER: All information was correct at the time of
PRODUCER: recording, but the world of child protection is
PRODUCER: ever-changing.
PRODUCER: To stay up to date, visit the NSPCC Learning
PRODUCER: website at nspcc.org.uk/learning.