1 00:00:00,550 --> 00:00:03,459 PRODUCER: Please note this podcast contains mention of 2 00:00:03,460 --> 00:00:04,809 PRODUCER: child sexual abuse. 3 00:00:13,930 --> 00:00:16,959 PRODUCER: In 2015, the Independent Inquiry into Child 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:19,479 PRODUCER: Sexual Abuse was set up to investigate where 5 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:21,729 PRODUCER: institutions failed to protect children in 6 00:00:21,730 --> 00:00:22,730 PRODUCER: their care. 7 00:00:23,650 --> 00:00:25,749 PRODUCER: The inquiry's final report, published in 8 00:00:25,750 --> 00:00:28,629 PRODUCER: October 2022, laid out a set of 9 00:00:28,630 --> 00:00:30,849 PRODUCER: powerful recommendations to address past 10 00:00:30,850 --> 00:00:33,489 PRODUCER: failings and protect future generations of 11 00:00:33,490 --> 00:00:34,719 PRODUCER: children from abuse. 12 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:38,139 PRODUCER: Recommendations for Change is a five-part 13 00:00:38,140 --> 00:00:41,409 PRODUCER: podcast series from NSPCC Learning, examining 14 00:00:41,410 --> 00:00:43,659 PRODUCER: why these recommendations are needed, how 15 00:00:43,660 --> 00:00:46,629 PRODUCER: they'll work if implemented, and what impact 16 00:00:46,630 --> 00:00:48,489 PRODUCER: they will have on the prevention of child 17 00:00:48,490 --> 00:00:49,490 PRODUCER: sexual abuse. 18 00:00:52,370 --> 00:00:55,329 PRODUCER: Episode five: justice and redress. 19 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:02,289 PRODUCER: The criminal and civil justice systems play an 20 00:01:02,290 --> 00:01:04,719 PRODUCER: important role in the way the state responds to 21 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:06,669 PRODUCER: child sexual abuse. 22 00:01:06,670 --> 00:01:09,519 PRODUCER: However, many of IICSA's investigations feature 23 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:11,559 PRODUCER: details of inadequate responses from the 24 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:15,519 PRODUCER: police, Crown Prosecution Service and courts. 25 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:17,829 PRODUCER: Through the IICSA Truth Project, victims and 26 00:01:17,830 --> 00:01:20,079 PRODUCER: survivors were able to share their firsthand 27 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:23,139 PRODUCER: experiences of the justice system, from initial 28 00:01:23,140 --> 00:01:25,839 PRODUCER: disclosure of abuse, through investigation by 29 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:29,229 PRODUCER: the police force or CPS, and then to court. 30 00:01:29,230 --> 00:01:31,239 PRODUCER: The IICSA final report summarises the 31 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:33,909 PRODUCER: challenges they faced in pursuit of justice, 32 00:01:33,910 --> 00:01:36,189 PRODUCER: including failures by police forces to fully 33 00:01:36,190 --> 00:01:39,069 PRODUCER: investigate reports of child sexual abuse and 34 00:01:39,070 --> 00:01:41,619 PRODUCER: delays in court proceedings, which can be 35 00:01:41,620 --> 00:01:44,019 PRODUCER: stressful and traumatising for victims and 36 00:01:44,020 --> 00:01:45,309 PRODUCER: survivors. 37 00:01:45,310 --> 00:01:47,619 PRODUCER: In this final episode of Recommendations for 38 00:01:47,620 --> 00:01:50,439 PRODUCER: Change, we'll be exploring how the information 39 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:53,049 PRODUCER: and recommendations proposed in the IICSA final 40 00:01:53,050 --> 00:01:55,989 PRODUCER: report might improve victims and survivors 41 00:01:55,990 --> 00:01:59,229 PRODUCER: experiences of the criminal justice system. 42 00:01:59,230 --> 00:02:01,449 PRODUCER: We'll also be looking at proposed changes to 43 00:02:01,450 --> 00:02:03,579 PRODUCER: the available schemes of compensation and 44 00:02:03,580 --> 00:02:04,839 PRODUCER: redress. 45 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:07,089 PRODUCER: The first person I spoke to about policing and 46 00:02:07,090 --> 00:02:10,269 PRODUCER: the criminal justice system was Ian Critchley. 47 00:02:10,270 --> 00:02:12,639 PRODUCER: Ian is the National Police Chiefs Council lead 48 00:02:12,640 --> 00:02:14,859 PRODUCER: for child protection and was previously the 49 00:02:14,860 --> 00:02:17,859 PRODUCER: deputy chief constable of Merseyside Police. 50 00:02:17,860 --> 00:02:19,989 IAN CRITCHLEY: My role, so this can be broken down into 51 00:02:19,990 --> 00:02:21,579 IAN CRITCHLEY: three or four key areas. 52 00:02:21,580 --> 00:02:24,099 IAN CRITCHLEY: One is making sure that policing 53 00:02:24,100 --> 00:02:26,499 IAN CRITCHLEY: consistently develops and enhances its 54 00:02:26,500 --> 00:02:29,409 IAN CRITCHLEY: approach to prevent child abuse, 55 00:02:29,410 --> 00:02:31,749 IAN CRITCHLEY: to give confidence to victims — both 56 00:02:31,750 --> 00:02:33,099 IAN CRITCHLEY: children and adult survivors — to come 57 00:02:33,100 --> 00:02:35,109 IAN CRITCHLEY: forward and to bring more offenders to 58 00:02:35,110 --> 00:02:37,389 IAN CRITCHLEY: justice. So that's a really critical area 59 00:02:37,390 --> 00:02:38,979 IAN CRITCHLEY: for us. And clearly we take much learning 60 00:02:38,980 --> 00:02:40,569 IAN CRITCHLEY: from from IICSA around that. 61 00:02:40,570 --> 00:02:42,099 IAN CRITCHLEY: Two is to enhance partnerships at the 62 00:02:42,100 --> 00:02:43,509 IAN CRITCHLEY: national and local levels. 63 00:02:43,510 --> 00:02:46,329 IAN CRITCHLEY: I work very much with national key 64 00:02:46,330 --> 00:02:48,309 IAN CRITCHLEY: stakeholders, both within government, 65 00:02:48,310 --> 00:02:50,121 IAN CRITCHLEY: statutory partners, but also obviously 66 00:02:50,122 --> 00:02:52,089 IAN CRITCHLEY: charitable organisations and third sector 67 00:02:52,090 --> 00:02:54,279 IAN CRITCHLEY: like the NSPCC as well. 68 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:56,889 IAN CRITCHLEY: And thirdly, I work very closely with the 69 00:02:56,890 --> 00:02:58,359 IAN CRITCHLEY: College of Policing and the Vulnerability 70 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:00,609 IAN CRITCHLEY: Knowledge Practice Programme to make sure 71 00:03:00,610 --> 00:03:03,549 IAN CRITCHLEY: that we are converting strategy and 72 00:03:03,550 --> 00:03:06,459 IAN CRITCHLEY: reviews into action that makes 73 00:03:06,460 --> 00:03:08,349 IAN CRITCHLEY: a real difference at every level, whether 74 00:03:08,350 --> 00:03:09,729 IAN CRITCHLEY: that's our specialist child protection 75 00:03:09,730 --> 00:03:12,699 IAN CRITCHLEY: teams, whether that is our front line 76 00:03:12,700 --> 00:03:15,159 IAN CRITCHLEY: officers — you know, new 20,000 officers 77 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:17,229 IAN CRITCHLEY: come into the organisation — contact 78 00:03:17,230 --> 00:03:20,169 IAN CRITCHLEY: centre staff; everybody within the system 79 00:03:20,170 --> 00:03:22,509 IAN CRITCHLEY: knows their role, also knows the partner 80 00:03:22,510 --> 00:03:24,699 IAN CRITCHLEY: role, so we can work together to best 81 00:03:24,700 --> 00:03:26,379 IAN CRITCHLEY: protect children from abuse that we know 82 00:03:26,380 --> 00:03:27,909 IAN CRITCHLEY: will have a lifelong impact. 83 00:03:27,910 --> 00:03:29,949 PRODUCER: Ian began by giving an overview of the 84 00:03:29,950 --> 00:03:32,529 PRODUCER: recommendations and findings in the IICSA final 85 00:03:32,530 --> 00:03:35,019 PRODUCER: report relating to the justice system. 86 00:03:35,020 --> 00:03:36,909 IAN CRITCHLEY: There is clearly within the 20 key 87 00:03:36,910 --> 00:03:39,699 IAN CRITCHLEY: recommendations, requirements to review 88 00:03:39,700 --> 00:03:41,709 IAN CRITCHLEY: the joint inspection of the Victims' Code 89 00:03:41,710 --> 00:03:44,079 IAN CRITCHLEY: and also removal of the three year time 90 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:46,330 IAN CRITCHLEY: limitations for civil claims as well; 91 00:03:46,331 --> 00:03:49,299 IAN CRITCHLEY: recognising the impact that child 92 00:03:49,300 --> 00:03:52,359 IAN CRITCHLEY: abuse has on victims, and also 93 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,149 IAN CRITCHLEY: timeliness in terms of confidence to 94 00:03:55,150 --> 00:03:56,959 IAN CRITCHLEY: report, as well. 95 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:58,419 IAN CRITCHLEY: So I think they are some of the key 96 00:03:58,420 --> 00:04:00,399 IAN CRITCHLEY: recommendations within there. 97 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:03,399 IAN CRITCHLEY: I remind myself of what was the evidence 98 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:05,019 IAN CRITCHLEY: that was given and provided across the 99 00:04:05,020 --> 00:04:06,789 IAN CRITCHLEY: criminal justice system, and it is at this 100 00:04:06,790 --> 00:04:08,949 IAN CRITCHLEY: point where I continue to reiterate my 101 00:04:08,950 --> 00:04:11,799 IAN CRITCHLEY: apology on behalf of policing and the 102 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:13,989 IAN CRITCHLEY: failures that took place over many years 103 00:04:13,990 --> 00:04:17,109 IAN CRITCHLEY: in relation to the way we 104 00:04:17,110 --> 00:04:20,768 IAN CRITCHLEY: failed to believe, 105 00:04:20,769 --> 00:04:23,949 IAN CRITCHLEY: listen, to deal with timeliness 106 00:04:23,950 --> 00:04:27,069 IAN CRITCHLEY: of investigation, to signpost to 107 00:04:27,070 --> 00:04:28,780 IAN CRITCHLEY: victim support services, 108 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,349 IAN CRITCHLEY: to make sure our language was appropriate 109 00:04:32,350 --> 00:04:34,089 IAN CRITCHLEY: at all times and was no way victim 110 00:04:34,090 --> 00:04:36,219 IAN CRITCHLEY: blaming, to provide communications in 111 00:04:36,220 --> 00:04:38,259 IAN CRITCHLEY: relation to how quick our investigations 112 00:04:38,260 --> 00:04:41,829 IAN CRITCHLEY: were progressing or not as well. 113 00:04:41,830 --> 00:04:44,109 IAN CRITCHLEY: And, I also remind myself that we are part 114 00:04:44,110 --> 00:04:45,699 IAN CRITCHLEY: and parcel of the wider criminal justice system. 115 00:04:45,700 --> 00:04:48,549 IAN CRITCHLEY: So CPS, there was evidence given 116 00:04:48,550 --> 00:04:50,499 IAN CRITCHLEY: within the Truth Project around the need 117 00:04:50,500 --> 00:04:52,659 IAN CRITCHLEY: for CPS to give further information around 118 00:04:52,660 --> 00:04:54,459 IAN CRITCHLEY: verdicts, sentencing, decisions not to 119 00:04:54,460 --> 00:04:56,169 IAN CRITCHLEY: prosecute. 120 00:04:56,170 --> 00:04:58,269 IAN CRITCHLEY: The court system, quite frankly, is just 121 00:04:58,270 --> 00:05:00,669 IAN CRITCHLEY: too slow for victims once they do make 122 00:05:00,670 --> 00:05:03,384 IAN CRITCHLEY: that difficult decision to disclose, years 123 00:05:04,690 --> 00:05:06,699 IAN CRITCHLEY: and years sometimes in the waiting. 124 00:05:06,700 --> 00:05:09,699 IAN CRITCHLEY: And then, I read from from 125 00:05:09,700 --> 00:05:11,609 IAN CRITCHLEY: one victim, Bethany, within the Truth 126 00:05:11,610 --> 00:05:14,079 IAN CRITCHLEY: Project, whose quote: "the sentence 127 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:16,389 IAN CRITCHLEY: massively diminished the crime. 128 00:05:16,390 --> 00:05:20,109 IAN CRITCHLEY: It makes me feel worthless." So, again, 129 00:05:20,110 --> 00:05:22,719 IAN CRITCHLEY: very careful around when we talk about 130 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:25,583 IAN CRITCHLEY: outcomes, that this is lifelong and a 131 00:05:25,584 --> 00:05:27,699 IAN CRITCHLEY: criminal justice element is just one bit 132 00:05:27,700 --> 00:05:28,689 IAN CRITCHLEY: of that. 133 00:05:28,690 --> 00:05:31,389 PRODUCER: Focusing in on the police force. 134 00:05:31,390 --> 00:05:33,939 PRODUCER: The police are often the first to be told about 135 00:05:33,940 --> 00:05:36,369 PRODUCER: an incident of child sexual abuse. 136 00:05:36,370 --> 00:05:38,769 PRODUCER: Of the IICSA Truth Project participants who did 137 00:05:38,770 --> 00:05:40,449 PRODUCER: disclose their abuse at the time it was 138 00:05:40,450 --> 00:05:43,329 PRODUCER: happening, 33% disclosed to 139 00:05:43,330 --> 00:05:46,269 PRODUCER: the police. It's therefore critical that police 140 00:05:46,270 --> 00:05:49,599 PRODUCER: forces respond appropriately to such reports. 141 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:52,179 PRODUCER: Unfortunately, as you just alluded to, a number 142 00:05:52,180 --> 00:05:54,129 PRODUCER: of victims and survivors talked about the 143 00:05:54,130 --> 00:05:56,979 PRODUCER: police not taking formal action after reports 144 00:05:56,980 --> 00:05:59,279 PRODUCER: were made. Please can you explain where the 145 00:05:59,280 --> 00:06:01,169 PRODUCER: police force has gone wrong in responding to 146 00:06:01,170 --> 00:06:03,779 PRODUCER: child sexual abuse in the past, and what needs 147 00:06:03,780 --> 00:06:06,269 PRODUCER: to be done to improve responses to CSA going 148 00:06:06,270 --> 00:06:07,199 PRODUCER: forward? 149 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:08,729 IAN CRITCHLEY: Yeah. If I touch, first of all, I suppose 150 00:06:08,730 --> 00:06:10,469 IAN CRITCHLEY: on what we're doing in policing and what 151 00:06:10,470 --> 00:06:12,779 IAN CRITCHLEY: was identified in IICSA. So, really 152 00:06:12,780 --> 00:06:14,489 IAN CRITCHLEY: interesting fact that, you know, up until 153 00:06:14,490 --> 00:06:17,249 IAN CRITCHLEY: 1988 the uncorroborated evidence of a 154 00:06:17,250 --> 00:06:18,519 IAN CRITCHLEY: child was inadmissible [in court]. You 155 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:21,569 IAN CRITCHLEY: know, a myth— a criminal justice system 156 00:06:21,570 --> 00:06:24,479 IAN CRITCHLEY: that perpetuated a myth about 157 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:26,819 IAN CRITCHLEY: children. We didn't link perpetrators 158 00:06:26,820 --> 00:06:28,079 IAN CRITCHLEY: together. So we might have had an 159 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:30,269 IAN CRITCHLEY: investigation 'A' over here — it might 160 00:06:30,270 --> 00:06:31,559 IAN CRITCHLEY: even have been in the same force — or 161 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:33,059 IAN CRITCHLEY: investigation 'B' over here, but not 162 00:06:33,060 --> 00:06:34,889 IAN CRITCHLEY: talking to each other. Perfect case of 163 00:06:34,890 --> 00:06:37,049 IAN CRITCHLEY: that was obviously the appalling offences 164 00:06:37,050 --> 00:06:39,299 IAN CRITCHLEY: committed by Jimmy Saville, around it, 165 00:06:39,300 --> 00:06:41,729 IAN CRITCHLEY: which led to obviously developments and us 166 00:06:41,730 --> 00:06:43,619 IAN CRITCHLEY: enhancing both the police national 167 00:06:43,620 --> 00:06:44,943 IAN CRITCHLEY: database but also Operation Hydrant around it. A 168 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:49,979 IAN CRITCHLEY: hierarchy that existed in police forces 169 00:06:49,980 --> 00:06:52,229 IAN CRITCHLEY: where concerns by our investigators were 170 00:06:52,230 --> 00:06:55,109 IAN CRITCHLEY: failed to be able to be acted on by 171 00:06:55,110 --> 00:06:56,729 IAN CRITCHLEY: strategic leaders. 172 00:06:56,730 --> 00:06:58,649 IAN CRITCHLEY: I talked about a victim blaming and 173 00:06:58,650 --> 00:07:01,859 IAN CRITCHLEY: belief: we historically have arrested 174 00:07:01,860 --> 00:07:04,199 IAN CRITCHLEY: children who were seeking to report crimes 175 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:06,899 IAN CRITCHLEY: of abuse, leaving the abuser free to 176 00:07:06,900 --> 00:07:08,939 IAN CRITCHLEY: continue to have perpetrate their 177 00:07:08,940 --> 00:07:11,699 IAN CRITCHLEY: appalling crimes. Areas like missing, we 178 00:07:11,700 --> 00:07:13,649 IAN CRITCHLEY: weren't picking up on the warning signs. 179 00:07:13,650 --> 00:07:14,999 IAN CRITCHLEY: So areas like missing, failing to 180 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,179 IAN CRITCHLEY: undertake quality return interviews and 181 00:07:18,180 --> 00:07:20,639 IAN CRITCHLEY: really not identifying the scale and 182 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:22,469 IAN CRITCHLEY: nature of it, particularly around 183 00:07:22,470 --> 00:07:24,539 IAN CRITCHLEY: group-based offending of course. 184 00:07:24,540 --> 00:07:27,539 IAN CRITCHLEY: In some areas, we were paying deference 185 00:07:27,540 --> 00:07:30,029 IAN CRITCHLEY: to persons in positions of prominence as 186 00:07:30,030 --> 00:07:31,869 IAN CRITCHLEY: well, who escaped justice. 187 00:07:31,870 --> 00:07:33,689 IAN CRITCHLEY: Making wrong decisions by police and CPS 188 00:07:33,690 --> 00:07:35,129 IAN CRITCHLEY: to prosecute — I've actually just chaired a 189 00:07:35,130 --> 00:07:36,748 IAN CRITCHLEY: child sexual abuse referral panel. 190 00:07:36,749 --> 00:07:39,719 IAN CRITCHLEY: And we've also now got since 2013 191 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:41,159 IAN CRITCHLEY: the right to review. So giving an 192 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:43,769 IAN CRITCHLEY: opportunity for victims to review NFA 193 00:07:43,770 --> 00:07:45,629 IAN CRITCHLEY: decisions by police and the CPS. 194 00:07:45,630 --> 00:07:47,159 IAN CRITCHLEY: Of course, we want to make sure we make 195 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:50,219 IAN CRITCHLEY: the right decisions in the first place. 196 00:07:50,220 --> 00:07:52,109 IAN CRITCHLEY: What are we doing around that? 197 00:07:52,110 --> 00:07:53,399 IAN CRITCHLEY: We're working very closely with the College 198 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:55,949 IAN CRITCHLEY: of Policing to enhance our training of 199 00:07:55,950 --> 00:07:57,599 IAN CRITCHLEY: both our specialist staff and our 200 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,569 IAN CRITCHLEY: frontline staff. IICSA makes specific 201 00:08:00,570 --> 00:08:02,639 IAN CRITCHLEY: recommendations in reference to special 202 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:04,979 IAN CRITCHLEY: measures for children. 203 00:08:04,980 --> 00:08:07,229 IAN CRITCHLEY: So, of course, we brought in achieving 204 00:08:07,230 --> 00:08:08,230 IAN CRITCHLEY: best evidence interviews. 205 00:08:09,420 --> 00:08:12,749 IAN CRITCHLEY: And now, a victim's testimony 206 00:08:12,750 --> 00:08:16,139 IAN CRITCHLEY: can be obviously played in terms of the 207 00:08:16,140 --> 00:08:18,089 IAN CRITCHLEY: digital recording of that, but we've also 208 00:08:18,090 --> 00:08:21,159 IAN CRITCHLEY: now progressed on to, in some areas, the 209 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:22,979 IAN CRITCHLEY: examination and cross-examination also 210 00:08:22,980 --> 00:08:26,039 IAN CRITCHLEY: being done as recorded, as well, to 211 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:29,039 IAN CRITCHLEY: again assist a victim within that 212 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:30,631 IAN CRITCHLEY: area. The Victims' Code: IICSA makes 213 00:08:30,632 --> 00:08:34,349 IAN CRITCHLEY: specific reference to the Victims' Code 214 00:08:34,350 --> 00:08:36,689 IAN CRITCHLEY: and the 12 rights within there, first 215 00:08:36,690 --> 00:08:38,399 IAN CRITCHLEY: published in 2005, I think. 216 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:40,918 IAN CRITCHLEY: I think what's key within there, there is 217 00:08:40,919 --> 00:08:42,808 IAN CRITCHLEY: a right for victims to have a referral to 218 00:08:42,809 --> 00:08:45,059 IAN CRITCHLEY: support for victims. Yet IICSA found that 219 00:08:45,060 --> 00:08:47,699 IAN CRITCHLEY: very few victims were getting advocacy and 220 00:08:47,700 --> 00:08:50,279 IAN CRITCHLEY: support during an investigation stage. 221 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,619 IAN CRITCHLEY: But, as we know, victims need different 222 00:08:52,620 --> 00:08:55,449 IAN CRITCHLEY: types of support, particularly around 223 00:08:55,450 --> 00:08:57,479 IAN CRITCHLEY: their mental health and well-being, and 224 00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:59,009 IAN CRITCHLEY: that just wasn't being provided or 225 00:08:59,010 --> 00:09:00,010 IAN CRITCHLEY: signposted. 226 00:09:00,870 --> 00:09:02,519 IAN CRITCHLEY: They have a right to be provided the 227 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:04,109 IAN CRITCHLEY: information about the investigation, the 228 00:09:04,110 --> 00:09:06,149 IAN CRITCHLEY: trial and compensation, and this wasn't 229 00:09:06,150 --> 00:09:07,529 IAN CRITCHLEY: happening. They have a right to be 230 00:09:07,530 --> 00:09:09,509 IAN CRITCHLEY: informed about the outcome and appeal and 231 00:09:09,510 --> 00:09:12,809 IAN CRITCHLEY: how the offender will be managed, 232 00:09:12,810 --> 00:09:14,729 IAN CRITCHLEY: as well. And a right to have the knowledge 233 00:09:14,730 --> 00:09:16,499 IAN CRITCHLEY: and use of special measures as well. 234 00:09:16,500 --> 00:09:19,529 IAN CRITCHLEY: So good reference in IICSA, to make 235 00:09:19,530 --> 00:09:21,119 IAN CRITCHLEY: sure that we are fulfilling what is 236 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,059 IAN CRITCHLEY: already within the Victims' 237 00:09:24,060 --> 00:09:26,699 IAN CRITCHLEY: Code and it is our responsibility to make 238 00:09:26,700 --> 00:09:28,799 IAN CRITCHLEY: sure is undertaken and progressed in a 239 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,439 IAN CRITCHLEY: really professional, caring, empathetic 240 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:32,369 IAN CRITCHLEY: way. 241 00:09:32,370 --> 00:09:34,529 PRODUCER: You mentioned survivors have a right to 242 00:09:34,530 --> 00:09:37,349 PRODUCER: advocacy during investigations, but that very 243 00:09:37,350 --> 00:09:39,509 PRODUCER: few victims and survivors are getting that 244 00:09:39,510 --> 00:09:40,859 PRODUCER: advocacy. 245 00:09:40,860 --> 00:09:43,319 PRODUCER: How do we improve access to advocacy during an 246 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:45,899 PRODUCER: investigation of child sexual abuse? 247 00:09:45,900 --> 00:09:47,939 IAN CRITCHLEY: I think there's a real challenge here in 248 00:09:47,940 --> 00:09:50,339 IAN CRITCHLEY: terms of advocacy, whether that's for 249 00:09:50,340 --> 00:09:52,259 IAN CRITCHLEY: children, whether that's for adult survivors, 250 00:09:52,260 --> 00:09:53,759 IAN CRITCHLEY: I see it across a wider area of 251 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,519 IAN CRITCHLEY: vulnerability around advocates for 252 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:58,409 IAN CRITCHLEY: domestic abuse as well. 253 00:09:58,410 --> 00:10:00,959 IAN CRITCHLEY: There is a critical role here for police 254 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,779 IAN CRITCHLEY: and crime commissioners, to make sure 255 00:10:03,780 --> 00:10:06,899 IAN CRITCHLEY: there is good joined-up funding streams 256 00:10:06,900 --> 00:10:09,959 IAN CRITCHLEY: for the advocacy of such 257 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,779 IAN CRITCHLEY: a service. I do believe — and one of the 258 00:10:12,780 --> 00:10:14,909 IAN CRITCHLEY: recommendations from IICSA was a joint 259 00:10:14,910 --> 00:10:16,799 IAN CRITCHLEY: inspection of the Victims' Code, and it 260 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:19,049 IAN CRITCHLEY: does also obviously feature in terms of 261 00:10:19,050 --> 00:10:21,519 IAN CRITCHLEY: HMICFRS inspections as to how they are 262 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:23,639 IAN CRITCHLEY: applying the Victims' Code, but clearly it 263 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:24,994 IAN CRITCHLEY: goes beyond the policing responsibility 264 00:10:27,210 --> 00:10:29,581 IAN CRITCHLEY: here to other statutory 265 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:31,859 IAN CRITCHLEY: partners as well. 266 00:10:31,860 --> 00:10:33,299 IAN CRITCHLEY: I do think there needs to be a national 267 00:10:33,300 --> 00:10:36,719 IAN CRITCHLEY: review of both the funding 268 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:39,749 IAN CRITCHLEY: and the provision of children's and 269 00:10:39,750 --> 00:10:42,299 IAN CRITCHLEY: adult survivors advocacy service, 270 00:10:42,300 --> 00:10:44,999 IAN CRITCHLEY: particularly around therapeutic support. 271 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:46,319 IAN CRITCHLEY: We know only too well the pressure that's 272 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:48,689 IAN CRITCHLEY: on services like CAMHS as well. 273 00:10:48,690 --> 00:10:50,339 IAN CRITCHLEY: And we know only too well that if we don't 274 00:10:50,340 --> 00:10:52,319 IAN CRITCHLEY: catch it early, and we don't intervene 275 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,319 IAN CRITCHLEY: early with the right level of support 276 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:57,894 IAN CRITCHLEY: and intervention, then we know that harm 277 00:10:57,895 --> 00:11:00,539 IAN CRITCHLEY: to that young person or adult survivor 278 00:11:00,540 --> 00:11:02,759 IAN CRITCHLEY: will get much, much worse. 279 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:05,099 IAN CRITCHLEY: And there will be a cost to that. 280 00:11:05,100 --> 00:11:07,439 IAN CRITCHLEY: There will be a financial cost, because 281 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:09,059 IAN CRITCHLEY: that will mean that that person will 282 00:11:09,060 --> 00:11:11,579 IAN CRITCHLEY: require services for a long time that 283 00:11:11,580 --> 00:11:13,199 IAN CRITCHLEY: haven't been provided at the earliest 284 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:14,489 IAN CRITCHLEY: opportunity. 285 00:11:14,490 --> 00:11:16,019 IAN CRITCHLEY: But most sadly, there's obviously human 286 00:11:16,020 --> 00:11:19,199 IAN CRITCHLEY: cost of harm, and we will find that that 287 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:21,479 IAN CRITCHLEY: person, that victim of crime, will be in 288 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:23,704 IAN CRITCHLEY: and out of interventions for 289 00:11:24,900 --> 00:11:27,269 IAN CRITCHLEY: a long time, if not for the rest of their 290 00:11:27,270 --> 00:11:29,669 IAN CRITCHLEY: lives. So there's absolutely a moral 291 00:11:29,670 --> 00:11:32,489 IAN CRITCHLEY: requirement and a human requirement on us 292 00:11:32,490 --> 00:11:35,279 IAN CRITCHLEY: to improve the position that we're in now. 293 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:38,579 IAN CRITCHLEY: I've talked earlier on about the scale 294 00:11:38,580 --> 00:11:39,959 IAN CRITCHLEY: of child abuse: we're now dealing with over 295 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,719 IAN CRITCHLEY: 100,000 crimes reported to us. 296 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,119 IAN CRITCHLEY: Each one of those persons is a victim in 297 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,929 IAN CRITCHLEY: their own right and absolutely deserves 298 00:11:48,930 --> 00:11:51,929 IAN CRITCHLEY: the advocacy that will help them 299 00:11:51,930 --> 00:11:55,559 IAN CRITCHLEY: through not just any criminal justice 300 00:11:55,560 --> 00:11:57,089 IAN CRITCHLEY: process that takes place. 301 00:11:57,090 --> 00:11:58,319 IAN CRITCHLEY: And that is important. 302 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,709 IAN CRITCHLEY: And, you know, being confident 303 00:12:01,710 --> 00:12:02,939 IAN CRITCHLEY: that they've been dealt with in the most 304 00:12:02,940 --> 00:12:04,859 IAN CRITCHLEY: appropriate way is important, but much 305 00:12:04,860 --> 00:12:06,479 IAN CRITCHLEY: beyond, much beyond that. 306 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:08,129 IAN CRITCHLEY: And I think there's a real stretch and 307 00:12:08,130 --> 00:12:10,799 IAN CRITCHLEY: strain on the advocacy service that needs 308 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:12,839 IAN CRITCHLEY: a complete review and an overhaul that's 309 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:13,840 IAN CRITCHLEY: recommended by IICSA. 310 00:12:14,610 --> 00:12:17,189 PRODUCER: In our conversation, Ian identified areas for 311 00:12:17,190 --> 00:12:20,009 PRODUCER: improvements that sit outside of IICSA's 20 312 00:12:20,010 --> 00:12:22,769 PRODUCER: main recommendations, particularly the need for 313 00:12:22,770 --> 00:12:25,169 PRODUCER: police services to improve the way they respond 314 00:12:25,170 --> 00:12:27,509 PRODUCER: to victims and survivors. 315 00:12:27,510 --> 00:12:30,149 PRODUCER: Simon Bailey was Ian's predecessor as National 316 00:12:30,150 --> 00:12:31,889 PRODUCER: Police Chiefs Council lead for Child 317 00:12:31,890 --> 00:12:34,979 PRODUCER: Protection, serving in post for eight years. 318 00:12:34,980 --> 00:12:36,989 PRODUCER: He is now a member of the Child Safeguarding 319 00:12:36,990 --> 00:12:38,939 PRODUCER: Practice Review Panel. 320 00:12:38,940 --> 00:12:41,519 PRODUCER: I spoke to Simon about the same topic: what 321 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:43,979 PRODUCER: changes are needed to improve the experiences 322 00:12:43,980 --> 00:12:46,649 PRODUCER: of the criminal justice system for victims and 323 00:12:46,650 --> 00:12:49,349 PRODUCER: survivors of child sexual abuse? 324 00:12:49,350 --> 00:12:52,469 SIMON BAILEY: For me, it starts with with 325 00:12:52,470 --> 00:12:53,969 SIMON BAILEY: the basics. 326 00:12:53,970 --> 00:12:56,609 SIMON BAILEY: And first and foremost — it's something I 327 00:12:56,610 --> 00:12:59,219 SIMON BAILEY: feel very strongly about, I feel 328 00:12:59,220 --> 00:13:01,979 SIMON BAILEY: passionately about, and have done my best 329 00:13:01,980 --> 00:13:03,689 SIMON BAILEY: to champion — and that's the importance of 330 00:13:03,690 --> 00:13:06,989 SIMON BAILEY: victims knowing that at the point 331 00:13:06,990 --> 00:13:10,259 SIMON BAILEY: of reporting their abuse, 332 00:13:10,260 --> 00:13:11,879 SIMON BAILEY: that they are believed. 333 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,699 SIMON BAILEY: There is really significant academic 334 00:13:14,700 --> 00:13:17,909 SIMON BAILEY: research that has been done that talks 335 00:13:17,910 --> 00:13:20,069 SIMON BAILEY: about one of the biggest hurdles for 336 00:13:20,070 --> 00:13:21,901 SIMON BAILEY: victim/survivors to overcome is: "am 337 00:13:22,980 --> 00:13:24,719 SIMON BAILEY: I going to be believed to the point of 338 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,689 SIMON BAILEY: reporting my abuse?" And knowing that 339 00:13:27,690 --> 00:13:29,909 SIMON BAILEY: they are reporting into a justice system 340 00:13:29,910 --> 00:13:31,977 SIMON BAILEY: that from the— at the start of that report 341 00:13:31,978 --> 00:13:34,709 SIMON BAILEY: — and I will clarify that — they are going 342 00:13:34,710 --> 00:13:37,439 SIMON BAILEY: to be believed, is essential. 343 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,559 SIMON BAILEY: And victims, I think, are 344 00:13:40,560 --> 00:13:42,809 SIMON BAILEY: owed that right. 345 00:13:42,810 --> 00:13:45,899 SIMON BAILEY: However — and this is where it's 346 00:13:45,900 --> 00:13:47,669 SIMON BAILEY: nuanced and it's important that there is 347 00:13:47,670 --> 00:13:50,609 SIMON BAILEY: real clarity around this — once the 348 00:13:50,610 --> 00:13:52,919 SIMON BAILEY: report has been taken, once the evidence 349 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:55,589 SIMON BAILEY: has been secured as best it can be at that 350 00:13:55,590 --> 00:13:58,439 SIMON BAILEY: point, thereafter there 351 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:00,869 SIMON BAILEY: has to be an investigation without fear or 352 00:14:00,870 --> 00:14:03,749 SIMON BAILEY: favour, and police officers, police 353 00:14:03,750 --> 00:14:05,729 SIMON BAILEY: staff, then need to go wherever the 354 00:14:05,730 --> 00:14:07,619 SIMON BAILEY: evidence will take them. 355 00:14:07,620 --> 00:14:09,779 SIMON BAILEY: And I have not spoken to a victim/survivor 356 00:14:09,780 --> 00:14:12,269 SIMON BAILEY: that doesn't agree with that approach. 357 00:14:12,270 --> 00:14:15,269 SIMON BAILEY: It is not a blind belief. 358 00:14:15,270 --> 00:14:17,789 SIMON BAILEY: It's important the victim come forward 359 00:14:17,790 --> 00:14:19,259 SIMON BAILEY: knowing that they will be believed, but 360 00:14:19,260 --> 00:14:20,999 SIMON BAILEY: also knowing that thereafter there will be 361 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,519 SIMON BAILEY: a completely impartial investigation. 362 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:27,029 SIMON BAILEY: And I think that has to be step one. 363 00:14:27,030 --> 00:14:30,209 SIMON BAILEY: Step two: there needs to be, 364 00:14:30,210 --> 00:14:32,609 SIMON BAILEY: throughout the course of the investigation 365 00:14:32,610 --> 00:14:35,429 SIMON BAILEY: that the investigating officers, the 366 00:14:35,430 --> 00:14:38,489 SIMON BAILEY: investigating team, keep 367 00:14:38,490 --> 00:14:41,309 SIMON BAILEY: the victim survivor fully updated on 368 00:14:41,310 --> 00:14:43,499 SIMON BAILEY: progress. If they are saying they're going 369 00:14:43,500 --> 00:14:45,719 SIMON BAILEY: to call them at 11 o'clock tomorrow, they 370 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:47,549 SIMON BAILEY: need to make that call. 371 00:14:47,550 --> 00:14:48,929 SIMON BAILEY: They need to keep them updated on the 372 00:14:48,930 --> 00:14:51,599 SIMON BAILEY: progress. And even if it's a call that says 373 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:52,949 SIMON BAILEY: "there's nothing more I can tell you this amount 374 00:14:52,950 --> 00:14:54,959 SIMON BAILEY: of time, or there are no new updates", but 375 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,139 SIMON BAILEY: just that engagement is so, so 376 00:14:58,140 --> 00:14:59,519 SIMON BAILEY: important. 377 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:02,939 SIMON BAILEY: And then, as the investigation progresses 378 00:15:02,940 --> 00:15:04,799 SIMON BAILEY: and they get to the point of the Crown 379 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,589 SIMON BAILEY: Prosecution Service making that decision, 380 00:15:07,590 --> 00:15:09,809 SIMON BAILEY: my personal view is and it's so important 381 00:15:09,810 --> 00:15:12,359 SIMON BAILEY: that the Crown Prosecution Service should 382 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:14,789 SIMON BAILEY: be making the decisions based about — a 383 00:15:14,790 --> 00:15:18,239 SIMON BAILEY: decision to charge or not — based upon 384 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:20,729 SIMON BAILEY: the evidence that's in front of them. 385 00:15:20,730 --> 00:15:22,889 SIMON BAILEY: And they shouldn't be taking a bookmaker's 386 00:15:22,890 --> 00:15:24,659 SIMON BAILEY: approach. It shouldn't be based upon what's 387 00:15:24,660 --> 00:15:26,159 SIMON BAILEY: the likelihood here? 388 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:29,369 SIMON BAILEY: If there is evidence there of abuse, then 389 00:15:29,370 --> 00:15:31,649 SIMON BAILEY: that evidence should be being put before a 390 00:15:31,650 --> 00:15:34,439 SIMON BAILEY: jury for a jury then to decide. 391 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,349 SIMON BAILEY: And then the final element for me has got 392 00:15:37,350 --> 00:15:39,689 SIMON BAILEY: to be that the criminal justice system, at 393 00:15:39,690 --> 00:15:41,699 SIMON BAILEY: this moment in time, is taking too long to 394 00:15:41,700 --> 00:15:43,769 SIMON BAILEY: deal with these cases. 395 00:15:43,770 --> 00:15:45,539 SIMON BAILEY: The statistics are there in the public 396 00:15:45,540 --> 00:15:47,219 SIMON BAILEY: domain, the number of days it is taking for 397 00:15:47,220 --> 00:15:50,549 SIMON BAILEY: the moment of report to charge, then to 398 00:15:50,550 --> 00:15:52,949 SIMON BAILEY: a trial. We have got to speed up the 399 00:15:52,950 --> 00:15:55,679 SIMON BAILEY: process, and we've got to be looking at the 400 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:57,329 SIMON BAILEY: pilots that are taking place in terms of 401 00:15:57,330 --> 00:15:59,199 SIMON BAILEY: the dedicated sexual offending courts, I 402 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:01,629 SIMON BAILEY: think that's really important, because the 403 00:16:01,630 --> 00:16:04,899 SIMON BAILEY: staff that are dealing with these cases, 404 00:16:04,900 --> 00:16:07,809 SIMON BAILEY: the court staff, the prosecutors, should be 405 00:16:07,810 --> 00:16:10,329 SIMON BAILEY: aware of the trauma that the victim has has 406 00:16:10,330 --> 00:16:13,239 SIMON BAILEY: suffered and they should be equipped to be 407 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:14,589 SIMON BAILEY: able to deal with that. 408 00:16:14,590 --> 00:16:17,469 SIMON BAILEY: And the courtroom should not become a 409 00:16:17,470 --> 00:16:20,469 SIMON BAILEY: hostile environment for victims and 410 00:16:20,470 --> 00:16:21,939 SIMON BAILEY: survivors of of abuse. 411 00:16:21,940 --> 00:16:23,619 SIMON BAILEY: Yes, you have to go through the judicial 412 00:16:23,620 --> 00:16:25,419 SIMON BAILEY: process. I completely get that. 413 00:16:25,420 --> 00:16:27,639 SIMON BAILEY: But the bottom line is that it should be 414 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:29,619 SIMON BAILEY: done in such a way that the court staff, 415 00:16:29,620 --> 00:16:31,449 SIMON BAILEY: the environment, appreciates the trauma of 416 00:16:31,450 --> 00:16:32,979 SIMON BAILEY: what's happened and they — the 417 00:16:32,980 --> 00:16:35,169 SIMON BAILEY: victims/survivors — should be afforded the 418 00:16:35,170 --> 00:16:37,689 SIMON BAILEY: appropriate level of support and the 419 00:16:37,690 --> 00:16:39,309 SIMON BAILEY: awareness as they go into it. 420 00:16:39,310 --> 00:16:40,659 SIMON BAILEY: And there are ways of being able to deal 421 00:16:40,660 --> 00:16:42,399 SIMON BAILEY: with that. And you'll be aware of the conversations 422 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:44,049 SIMON BAILEY: that have taken place around the pre-recording 423 00:16:44,050 --> 00:16:47,199 SIMON BAILEY: of evidence and what that might look like. 424 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:50,049 SIMON BAILEY: So I think that if we get those principles 425 00:16:50,050 --> 00:16:52,689 SIMON BAILEY: right, around belief, but not a blind 426 00:16:52,690 --> 00:16:55,809 SIMON BAILEY: belief; around the routine of keeping 427 00:16:55,810 --> 00:16:57,939 SIMON BAILEY: victim/survivors up to date and aware of 428 00:16:57,940 --> 00:17:00,759 SIMON BAILEY: the investigation as it goes; when the CPS 429 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,249 SIMON BAILEY: are making the decisions, let's make sure 430 00:17:03,250 --> 00:17:06,039 SIMON BAILEY: it's a merits-based decision, not a 431 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:08,169 SIMON BAILEY: bookmaker's decision; and let's then make 432 00:17:08,170 --> 00:17:10,539 SIMON BAILEY: sure that when a charge is made, that 433 00:17:10,540 --> 00:17:13,088 SIMON BAILEY: actually the judicial process is then 434 00:17:13,089 --> 00:17:15,489 SIMON BAILEY: cognisant of trauma that what is then the 435 00:17:15,490 --> 00:17:17,499 SIMON BAILEY: witness, the victim, the witness has then 436 00:17:17,500 --> 00:17:20,979 SIMON BAILEY: endured, and how you make the system 437 00:17:20,980 --> 00:17:23,799 SIMON BAILEY: as supportive as possible. 438 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:25,929 PRODUCER: What steps would you take to make that system 439 00:17:25,930 --> 00:17:27,309 PRODUCER: more supportive? 440 00:17:27,310 --> 00:17:30,099 SIMON BAILEY: I think the key thing is that the 441 00:17:30,100 --> 00:17:32,649 SIMON BAILEY: specialists working within those courts 442 00:17:32,650 --> 00:17:34,869 SIMON BAILEY: needs to be trauma-informed. 443 00:17:34,870 --> 00:17:37,909 SIMON BAILEY: They need to have that training. 444 00:17:37,910 --> 00:17:40,719 SIMON BAILEY: Specialist, independent sexual violence 445 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,869 SIMON BAILEY: advisors need to be made available 446 00:17:43,870 --> 00:17:45,639 SIMON BAILEY: to the victims as well. 447 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,369 SIMON BAILEY: And I think that's really important that 448 00:17:48,370 --> 00:17:50,709 SIMON BAILEY: they understand that. And that when you are 449 00:17:50,710 --> 00:17:52,329 SIMON BAILEY: then dealing within that, in that 450 00:17:52,330 --> 00:17:54,939 SIMON BAILEY: particular court setting, you need to make 451 00:17:54,940 --> 00:17:57,849 SIMON BAILEY: sure that the support is right 452 00:17:57,850 --> 00:17:59,589 SIMON BAILEY: there for the victims; that the staff 453 00:17:59,590 --> 00:18:01,119 SIMON BAILEY: understand, that they have the right 454 00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:04,119 SIMON BAILEY: support, have an appreciation of what 455 00:18:04,120 --> 00:18:06,129 SIMON BAILEY: those victim/survivors have been exposed 456 00:18:06,130 --> 00:18:08,649 SIMON BAILEY: to, what what it's been like for them, the 457 00:18:08,650 --> 00:18:11,109 SIMON BAILEY: courage that they have had to to come 458 00:18:11,110 --> 00:18:13,269 SIMON BAILEY: forward and report it. 459 00:18:13,270 --> 00:18:15,639 SIMON BAILEY: And, on the back of that, you then create a 460 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,189 SIMON BAILEY: very, very different environment. 461 00:18:18,190 --> 00:18:20,679 PRODUCER: Finally, is there any specific advice you would 462 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:22,599 PRODUCER: give to professionals working across the 463 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,419 PRODUCER: criminal justice system — in policing, in the 464 00:18:25,420 --> 00:18:28,329 PRODUCER: courtroom — on how to respond to the 465 00:18:28,330 --> 00:18:29,679 PRODUCER: IICSA findings? 466 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,679 SIMON BAILEY: I think the the most important thing 467 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:36,189 SIMON BAILEY: for me, having operated on 468 00:18:36,190 --> 00:18:37,899 SIMON BAILEY: the policing side of the criminal justice 469 00:18:37,900 --> 00:18:39,422 SIMON BAILEY: system for 35 years, is 470 00:18:41,020 --> 00:18:43,449 SIMON BAILEY: to realise that you are not just dealing 471 00:18:43,450 --> 00:18:44,949 SIMON BAILEY: with a case number. 472 00:18:44,950 --> 00:18:47,739 SIMON BAILEY: You are dealing with a person. 473 00:18:47,740 --> 00:18:50,709 SIMON BAILEY: You're dealing with a victim. 474 00:18:50,710 --> 00:18:53,649 SIMON BAILEY: And that's why recommendation 14 475 00:18:53,650 --> 00:18:56,649 SIMON BAILEY: of the inquiry talks about the 476 00:18:56,650 --> 00:18:58,629 SIMON BAILEY: importance of compliance with the Victims' 477 00:18:58,630 --> 00:19:01,599 SIMON BAILEY: code. And I think that is 478 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,449 SIMON BAILEY: so important. There needs to 479 00:19:04,450 --> 00:19:07,659 SIMON BAILEY: be further work done around 480 00:19:07,660 --> 00:19:09,849 SIMON BAILEY: that, and a joint inspection regarding 481 00:19:09,850 --> 00:19:12,159 SIMON BAILEY: compliance with the Victims' Code. 482 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,379 SIMON BAILEY: There are some gaps and I think IICSA has 483 00:19:14,380 --> 00:19:15,669 SIMON BAILEY: identified gaps. 484 00:19:15,670 --> 00:19:18,639 SIMON BAILEY: There needs to be a review to look at 485 00:19:19,730 --> 00:19:21,939 SIMON BAILEY: the whole systems approach to the criminal 486 00:19:21,940 --> 00:19:24,789 SIMON BAILEY: justice response of what is taking 487 00:19:24,790 --> 00:19:27,219 SIMON BAILEY: place and the, you know, the recommendation 488 00:19:27,220 --> 00:19:28,220 SIMON BAILEY: is clear. 489 00:19:29,230 --> 00:19:30,999 SIMON BAILEY: The inspectorates carry out that regular 490 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:32,499 SIMON BAILEY: joint inspection on victims' issues, 491 00:19:32,500 --> 00:19:35,199 SIMON BAILEY: because actually it's really important that 492 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,109 SIMON BAILEY: the the victim/survivors are made 493 00:19:38,110 --> 00:19:39,110 SIMON BAILEY: to feel that 494 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:43,619 SIMON BAILEY: they are being treated as a person rather 495 00:19:43,620 --> 00:19:46,499 SIMON BAILEY: than just another case that's going through 496 00:19:46,500 --> 00:19:47,909 SIMON BAILEY: the court system. 497 00:19:47,910 --> 00:19:50,429 PRODUCER: During our conversations, both Ian and Simon 498 00:19:50,430 --> 00:19:52,499 PRODUCER: mentioned the Victims' Code. 499 00:19:52,500 --> 00:19:55,469 PRODUCER: Recommendation 14 of the IICSA final report 500 00:19:55,470 --> 00:19:58,109 PRODUCER: asks the UK government to arrange for a joint 501 00:19:58,110 --> 00:20:00,359 PRODUCER: inspection of the compliance with the Victims' 502 00:20:00,360 --> 00:20:03,209 PRODUCER: Code in relation to victims and survivors of 503 00:20:03,210 --> 00:20:05,219 PRODUCER: child sexual abuse. 504 00:20:05,220 --> 00:20:07,409 PRODUCER: Here's Ian Critchley again to briefly explain 505 00:20:07,410 --> 00:20:09,869 PRODUCER: what the Victims' Code is and how it protects 506 00:20:09,870 --> 00:20:10,949 PRODUCER: children. 507 00:20:10,950 --> 00:20:13,919 IAN CRITCHLEY: The Victims' Code was brought in 2005. 508 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:16,289 IAN CRITCHLEY: It's a statutory mechanism: the rights of 509 00:20:16,290 --> 00:20:19,799 IAN CRITCHLEY: all victims that needs to be delivered by 510 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:21,269 IAN CRITCHLEY: criminal justice partners, and I've 511 00:20:21,270 --> 00:20:24,299 IAN CRITCHLEY: touched on some of those key rights 512 00:20:24,300 --> 00:20:26,189 IAN CRITCHLEY: in terms of referral to support; the 513 00:20:26,190 --> 00:20:27,492 IAN CRITCHLEY: victims being kept updated on 514 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:31,199 IAN CRITCHLEY: the investigation; being provided with 515 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:32,699 IAN CRITCHLEY: information about the trial and 516 00:20:32,700 --> 00:20:35,339 IAN CRITCHLEY: compensation; being informed about the 517 00:20:35,340 --> 00:20:38,579 IAN CRITCHLEY: outcomes and any, obviously, appeal. 518 00:20:38,580 --> 00:20:41,015 IAN CRITCHLEY: But also how an offender is being managed, 519 00:20:41,016 --> 00:20:44,339 IAN CRITCHLEY: if they are sentenced to a custodial 520 00:20:44,340 --> 00:20:46,379 IAN CRITCHLEY: sentence, again, there are rights to be 521 00:20:46,380 --> 00:20:48,839 IAN CRITCHLEY: informed of release around it. 522 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,959 IAN CRITCHLEY: Being informed about 523 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:53,634 IAN CRITCHLEY: therapeutic and counselling opportunities; 524 00:20:53,635 --> 00:20:56,569 IAN CRITCHLEY: again a myth 525 00:20:56,570 --> 00:20:58,739 IAN CRITCHLEY: that the police has perpetuated in the 526 00:20:58,740 --> 00:21:01,889 IAN CRITCHLEY: past where we have almost prevented 527 00:21:01,890 --> 00:21:03,719 IAN CRITCHLEY: young people and children receiving 528 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:05,519 IAN CRITCHLEY: therapy and counselling, saying it will 529 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,459 IAN CRITCHLEY: harm any criminal trial — it 530 00:21:08,460 --> 00:21:10,469 IAN CRITCHLEY: doesn't. We need to deal carefully with, 531 00:21:10,470 --> 00:21:12,059 IAN CRITCHLEY: obviously, any third-party material, but 532 00:21:12,060 --> 00:21:14,789 IAN CRITCHLEY: there is good process in place around 533 00:21:14,790 --> 00:21:16,469 IAN CRITCHLEY: that. And of course, within the Victims' 534 00:21:16,470 --> 00:21:18,659 IAN CRITCHLEY: Code, knowledge and use of special 535 00:21:18,660 --> 00:21:20,789 IAN CRITCHLEY: measures as well. So a really, really 536 00:21:20,790 --> 00:21:23,759 IAN CRITCHLEY: important piece of legislation 537 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:25,709 IAN CRITCHLEY: for us, particularly when it comes to how 538 00:21:25,710 --> 00:21:27,329 IAN CRITCHLEY: we deal with child victims. 539 00:21:27,330 --> 00:21:29,769 PRODUCER: And I asked Simon to explain what gaps there 540 00:21:29,770 --> 00:21:31,469 PRODUCER: are in the Victim's Code. 541 00:21:31,470 --> 00:21:32,849 SIMON BAILEY: I think probably the most the most 542 00:21:32,850 --> 00:21:34,523 SIMON BAILEY: important thing is — and I know IICSA were 543 00:21:34,524 --> 00:21:36,839 SIMON BAILEY: aware of this — is the concerns around 544 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,329 SIMON BAILEY: access to special measures and how actually 545 00:21:39,330 --> 00:21:42,179 SIMON BAILEY: the quality of witnesses' evidence 546 00:21:42,180 --> 00:21:44,939 SIMON BAILEY: to the court is enhanced by affording them 547 00:21:44,940 --> 00:21:46,529 SIMON BAILEY: access to special measures. 548 00:21:46,530 --> 00:21:48,269 SIMON BAILEY: So again, I think it's all picked up in 549 00:21:48,270 --> 00:21:49,383 SIMON BAILEY: that compliance with the Victims' Code. 550 00:21:50,470 --> 00:21:53,489 SIMON BAILEY: The code is not being consistently 551 00:21:53,490 --> 00:21:55,139 SIMON BAILEY: applied and followed. 552 00:21:55,140 --> 00:21:57,539 SIMON BAILEY: There were concerns around access to 553 00:21:57,540 --> 00:21:59,669 SIMON BAILEY: special measures, which were all designed 554 00:21:59,670 --> 00:22:00,989 SIMON BAILEY: around improving the quality of the 555 00:22:00,990 --> 00:22:03,329 SIMON BAILEY: victim's evidence to the court. 556 00:22:03,330 --> 00:22:06,869 SIMON BAILEY: So, that needs to be to be looked at. 557 00:22:06,870 --> 00:22:09,989 SIMON BAILEY: And, I believe in June of last 558 00:22:09,990 --> 00:22:12,237 SIMON BAILEY: year, the government responded to the 559 00:22:12,238 --> 00:22:14,969 SIMON BAILEY: consultation and talked about enshrining 560 00:22:14,970 --> 00:22:16,679 SIMON BAILEY: the Victims' Code into law. 561 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:18,959 SIMON BAILEY: So again, I think that's a positive step 562 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:19,919 SIMON BAILEY: forward. 563 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,409 PRODUCER: Adjacent to the changes around limitation are 564 00:22:22,410 --> 00:22:24,989 PRODUCER: the recommendations on making amends to victims 565 00:22:24,990 --> 00:22:26,639 PRODUCER: and survivors. 566 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:28,829 PRODUCER: These include changes to the Criminal Injuries 567 00:22:28,830 --> 00:22:31,619 PRODUCER: Compensation Scheme and setting up a single 568 00:22:31,620 --> 00:22:32,939 PRODUCER: redress scheme. 569 00:22:32,940 --> 00:22:35,279 PRODUCER: I asked Tomi Ogundele, one of the lawyers 570 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,439 PRODUCER: within the NSPCC specialising in child 571 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,289 PRODUCER: protection law, to outline the proposed changes 572 00:22:40,290 --> 00:22:41,819 PRODUCER: to redress. 573 00:22:41,820 --> 00:22:44,729 TOMI OGUNDELE: So when it comes to redress: currently, if 574 00:22:44,730 --> 00:22:46,739 TOMI OGUNDELE: an individual was abused as a child in 575 00:22:46,740 --> 00:22:49,349 TOMI OGUNDELE: England and Wales, there are three ways 576 00:22:49,350 --> 00:22:51,449 TOMI OGUNDELE: they can seek compensation. 577 00:22:51,450 --> 00:22:53,849 TOMI OGUNDELE: This is by making a legal claim against 578 00:22:53,850 --> 00:22:55,326 TOMI OGUNDELE: their abuser in the civil court; through 579 00:22:56,550 --> 00:22:58,409 TOMI OGUNDELE: the criminal court, if their abuser is 580 00:22:58,410 --> 00:23:01,379 TOMI OGUNDELE: convicted; or from the Criminal Injuries 581 00:23:01,380 --> 00:23:02,759 TOMI OGUNDELE: Compensation Authority. 582 00:23:03,820 --> 00:23:05,649 TOMI OGUNDELE: There was acknowledgement in IICSA's final 583 00:23:05,650 --> 00:23:08,499 TOMI OGUNDELE: report that victims and survivors were 584 00:23:08,500 --> 00:23:11,019 TOMI OGUNDELE: dissatisfied with the processes of civil 585 00:23:11,020 --> 00:23:14,019 TOMI OGUNDELE: litigation and criminal compensation, 586 00:23:14,020 --> 00:23:16,359 TOMI OGUNDELE: and that they had had negative experiences 587 00:23:16,360 --> 00:23:17,680 TOMI OGUNDELE: with seeking redress. 588 00:23:18,820 --> 00:23:21,279 TOMI OGUNDELE: So the inquiry recommends that the UK 589 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,919 TOMI OGUNDELE: government establishes a single redress 590 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,949 TOMI OGUNDELE: scheme in England and Wales, taking 591 00:23:26,950 --> 00:23:30,039 TOMI OGUNDELE: into account devolved responsibilities. 592 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,199 TOMI OGUNDELE: The recommendation outlines who would be 593 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,499 TOMI OGUNDELE: eligible to apply. So essentially, victims 594 00:23:35,500 --> 00:23:38,079 TOMI OGUNDELE: and survivors of child sexual abuse and 595 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:39,639 TOMI OGUNDELE: exploitation. 596 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:41,289 TOMI OGUNDELE: There is a requirement that there must be 597 00:23:41,290 --> 00:23:43,989 TOMI OGUNDELE: clear connection to state or non-state 598 00:23:43,990 --> 00:23:47,169 TOMI OGUNDELE: institutions in England and Wales. 599 00:23:47,170 --> 00:23:49,749 TOMI OGUNDELE: There would be a deduction of any previous 600 00:23:49,750 --> 00:23:52,659 TOMI OGUNDELE: award from any payments under the scheme. 601 00:23:52,660 --> 00:23:55,419 TOMI OGUNDELE: And finally, applicants where their civil 602 00:23:55,420 --> 00:23:57,549 TOMI OGUNDELE: claims were previously rejected would be 603 00:23:57,550 --> 00:23:58,869 TOMI OGUNDELE: excluded from applying. 604 00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:02,259 TOMI OGUNDELE: The scheme should provide payments to 605 00:24:02,260 --> 00:24:04,539 TOMI OGUNDELE: eligible applicants through a two tier 606 00:24:04,540 --> 00:24:07,569 TOMI OGUNDELE: system based on a fixed flat rate 607 00:24:07,570 --> 00:24:10,209 TOMI OGUNDELE: recognition payment, with the option to 608 00:24:10,210 --> 00:24:13,089 TOMI OGUNDELE: apply for a second tier payment. 609 00:24:13,090 --> 00:24:15,699 TOMI OGUNDELE: The application process must be accessible 610 00:24:15,700 --> 00:24:18,039 TOMI OGUNDELE: and straightforward, should run for five 611 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,679 TOMI OGUNDELE: years, and should be funded by central and 612 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:22,689 TOMI OGUNDELE: local government, with voluntary 613 00:24:22,690 --> 00:24:25,299 TOMI OGUNDELE: contributions sought from non-state 614 00:24:25,300 --> 00:24:27,069 TOMI OGUNDELE: institutions. 615 00:24:27,070 --> 00:24:29,409 TOMI OGUNDELE: The redress scheme is not a substitute for 616 00:24:29,410 --> 00:24:32,319 TOMI OGUNDELE: criminal or civil justice systems, and it 617 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,449 TOMI OGUNDELE: does not replace the Criminal Injuries 618 00:24:34,450 --> 00:24:36,160 TOMI OGUNDELE: Compensation Authority. 619 00:24:39,580 --> 00:24:42,519 PRODUCER: Thanks to Tomi Ogundele, Simon Bailey and 620 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:43,929 PRODUCER: Ian Critchley. 621 00:24:43,930 --> 00:24:45,369 PRODUCER: And thank you for listening to the 622 00:24:45,370 --> 00:24:47,949 PRODUCER: Recommendations for Change podcast series from 623 00:24:47,950 --> 00:24:50,049 PRODUCER: NSPCC Learning. 624 00:24:50,050 --> 00:24:51,669 PRODUCER: In this series, we've explored the 625 00:24:51,670 --> 00:24:54,099 PRODUCER: recommendations laid out by the Independent 626 00:24:54,100 --> 00:24:56,949 PRODUCER: Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse and how 627 00:24:56,950 --> 00:24:59,409 PRODUCER: they might contribute to a more robust, more 628 00:24:59,410 --> 00:25:02,439 PRODUCER: effective child protection system in the UK. 629 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,869 PRODUCER: For more information about any of the specific 630 00:25:04,870 --> 00:25:07,389 PRODUCER: topics covered in the series, we recommend 631 00:25:07,390 --> 00:25:10,089 PRODUCER: reading the full IICSA final report. 632 00:25:10,090 --> 00:25:12,339 PRODUCER: You can also find more safeguarding and child 633 00:25:12,340 --> 00:25:14,889 PRODUCER: protection resources on the NSPCC Learning 634 00:25:14,890 --> 00:25:15,890 PRODUCER: website. 635 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:18,909 PRODUCER: If you've been affected by any of the issues 636 00:25:18,910 --> 00:25:21,369 PRODUCER: raised in this podcast, you can reach out to 637 00:25:21,370 --> 00:25:24,549 PRODUCER: the NSPCC Helpline for support, call 638 00:25:24,550 --> 00:25:25,653 PRODUCER: 0808 800 5000 639 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:31,240 PRODUCER: or email help@nspcc.org.uk. 640 00:25:32,290 --> 00:25:34,749 PRODUCER: This podcast series was produced in Autumn 641 00:25:34,750 --> 00:25:36,309 PRODUCER: 2023. 642 00:25:36,310 --> 00:25:38,319 PRODUCER: All information was correct at the time of 643 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,809 PRODUCER: recording, but the world of child protection is 644 00:25:40,810 --> 00:25:41,810 PRODUCER: ever-changing. 645 00:25:42,190 --> 00:25:45,009 PRODUCER: To stay up to date, visit the NSPCC Learning 646 00:25:45,010 --> 00:25:50,170 PRODUCER: website at nspcc.org.uk/learning.