PB-E8 DISCUSS 022824-mast v2 ===

Sarah Wayne Callies: [00:00:00] Okay!

Welcome back to Prisonerland fishes, fishes, fish, school of wonderful people that we love. Um, this week's episode is called The Old Head, which is a, as Paul pointed out on our rewatch, double entendre, uh, if you joined us for the rewatch party, um, we're really grateful to have you with us. It's actually been super cool to connect with the show again.

It turns out it's a, it's a pretty good show. Um, also, sorry, I'm Sarah.

Paul Adelstein: I'm Paul. I'm also glad you're here. And uh, if there's anyone, you know, listening apart from our mothers, but also we're glad that they're listening. Hi mom.

Sarah Wayne Callies: So our [00:01:00] guest today is another one of the massively underused and totally overqualified for only four episodes.

Actors who came through our show and

Paul Adelstein: died gruesome deaths, which is, you know, more often than not how people exited our show,

Sarah Wayne Callies: but who then went on to massive success

Paul Adelstein: and actually had massive success before our show. Well, okay. We've over teased this. Let's just say it's Jessalyn Gill's sake, folks, Lisa Ricks, the ill fated ex of Lincoln Burroughs, baby mama, mother to the troubled.

Lincoln Burroughs, Jr., also known as LJ, and we're really looking forward to chatting with her today. We have all sorts of questions, and we're really looking forward to her insights.

Sarah Wayne Callies: But first, uh, our Kallistein Index. The old head appeared, nope, aired, the old head first aired on October 24th, 2005, um, and that's actually.

21 days, three weeks, since the previous episode aired. Uh, we believe that that's due to the World Series [00:02:00] playoff games, which aired

Paul Adelstein: on Fox. You can just say World Series, okay.

Sarah Wayne Callies: To the World, the World Series. It wasn't the playoff games though, too. It wasn't the pennant games. There's playoff games and

Paul Adelstein: then there's World Series.

Yeah, maybe both. So both,

Sarah Wayne Callies: okay. I mean, because it's three weeks, right? And the series is only like a week and a half. Depending on games, depending

Paul Adelstein: on the week. Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay. I'm just being a jerk

Sarah Wayne Callies: for no reason. No, I'm just not very good at sports and you know that.

Paul Adelstein: For some reason, the need to be a mansplainer.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Go on. So, uh, this episode was written by Monica Masur and directed by Jace Alexander.

Paul Adelstein: The episode drew 10. 12 million viewers. Which is the highest of the season since premiere night? Maybe there was lots of advertising during the world series games. We don't know if that happened. Maybe people really just missed it Uh, the lead in to the show was a rerun of the previous episode and we were up against monday night football on ABC.

Falcons beat the Jets 27 24. Two and a half men on CBS in [00:03:00] Las Vegas on NBC.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Okay, the plot recap. And again, we just re watched this. It's a really, really good one. Michael needs to dig in the guard's room for the escape plan, so Westmoreland starts a fire in said guard room. Uh, Michael is then called to repair the room with P.

I., giving him and the chance a taste. giving him and the team a chance to dig. A murder attempt on Veronica and Nick results in her neighbor's death, R. I. P. Lucas. Uh, and Kellerman kills LJ's mom and stepdad in an attempt to frame LJ for it. It is also revealed Okay, I killed LJ's mom, but okay. Go ahead. Oh, you're right about that.

Yeah, yeah. It went on your death toll though. Um, sorry for that. Okay, so it's also revealed that the vice president of the U. S. is the person to whom Kellerman is reporting. Oof,

Paul Adelstein: that is a lot. And what's, and what this doesn't even take into account, which is one of the great things that Prison Break does, is that anything that it says here, Westmoreland [00:04:00] starts a fire in the room.

Is it Westmoreland starts a fire in the room because Bellic kills his cat? Bellic kills his cat because he won't turn in. Whoever killed Bob, they killed Bob, um, everything has this pressure on it. Michael's called in to dig your repair room, but they don't want teabag in there, but teabags wheedled themself in.

So every one of these things is kind of fraught and juicy. Fraught and juicy. Continuing on with the calestine index in pop culture, the world's use of baseball. As we mentioned, had been going on, and on October 26th, Chicago White Sox, where we were shooting, won the World Series for the first time since 1917, sweeping the Houston Astros, who later became Cheaters.

The third game in the series, incidentally, became the longest World Series game in history at 5 hours and 41 minutes. Elsewhere. Is that the one you were at, by the way? No, I was not at the super long one. I was at the rainy one. I don't think it was the long one. [00:05:00] Maybe there was a rain delay. I don't remember.

Meanwhile, uh, in other parts of pop culture, Michael Connelly's crime novel, The Lincoln Lawyer was number one on the New York Times bestseller list. And six years later, it would become a feature film starring Matthew McConaughey. And is currently, right, a series on Netflix, or certainly was. Yes.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Uh, to locate us a little bit in global history, world events, um, renowned civil rights activist Rosa Parks died, uh, the day the show aired at the age of 92.

And a few days earlier, the trial of Saddam Hussein began for crimes against humanity. This is your moment in 2005. Okay.

Paul Adelstein: Big things going on in the world and baseball and smaller things in TV. Now, come on, join us for our rewatch party. Let's get into it. Oh, this

Sarah Wayne Callies: guy's back. Lucas. Lucas is a feminist icon.

It's like, I see a woman in trouble and I step in. It's [00:06:00] an ally. His character's

Paul Adelstein: name is Ally Lucas. Ally

Sarah Wayne Callies: Lucas. He also has a huge crush on Veronica. Yeah. I have a whole backstory in my head. Oh, no. Oh, I have a real bad

Paul Adelstein: feeling. Oh, no. I think maybe Lucas could pick one for the team.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh, did we write up Lucas just to, like Oh, Lucas!

Horrible. We loved you, Lucas. The

Paul Adelstein: wrong lesson about allyship. How does one go about killing a cat? I don't want

Sarah Wayne Callies: to know. Do you know, I have a story, uh, that I can tell you about my husband having to kill a cat. What? To save the lives of some children, and it's remarkably difficult. Okay. I'll tell you later.

Let's make a

Paul Adelstein: note of the dead cat story. They just keep Ratcheting up the pressure, like, as if the ticking clock of an execution isn't enough, we keep grinding

Sarah Wayne Callies: on it. We will be right back to talk about the episode.[00:07:00]

All right, welcome back, fishes. Let's bring Jocelyn into our conversation here. You know her from her giant career. I mean, highlights, Boston Public, Friday Night Lights, Glee, Vikings, etc. Um, Hi,

Jessalyn Gilsig: Jesslyn. Welcome. Hi, thank you. Thanks for having

Paul Adelstein: me. We're so glad to, uh, have you here. We've really been enjoying your work, watching these episodes and you, uh, have what we often, Sarah and I have talked about quite a bit, which is very difficult.

role of the guest star who has to come in and be a three dimensional person connected to all the lead characters with tons and tons of backstory that no one has probably explained. Big emotional scenes that you don't have time for where you're shot last while everybody else wants to go home and they're covering the leads and just being like, yeah, knock us out of the park 15 more times so we can get coverage and then maybe we'll do yours after lunch.

And you just [00:08:00] kill it. You just absolutely kill it. It's really

Sarah Wayne Callies: beautiful work. Yeah,

Jessalyn Gilsig: that's so generous. Thank you guys. But yes, that totally encapsulates the entire experience without a doubt. Definitely.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. And you were also, I mean, similarly, I think in some ways to Paul and I, you were in some ways on a different show, which is to say, you know, you and Paul are on an outside of the prison, very Just totally different.

You're not working with like, basically the first five people on the call sheet. And similarly, like I was on a two person, more or less like romantic drama in the infirmary. Um,

Paul Adelstein: and we're on a thriller and

Sarah Wayne Callies: yeah. Yeah. You guys are on like a political

Paul Adelstein: thriller, like a political thriller, right? Right. Well, you came to the prison.

You had some prison scenes.

Jessalyn Gilsig: I always got the feeling that everybody. I didn't want to be shooting my scenes. We all wanted to be back at the prison with the [00:09:00] guys doing, that was the, for the, I always felt like for the crew and for the company and that, that was the most exhilarating part of the show, which.

It was in the sense, because it was so original, this idea of setting it in the prison and then building this cast. And it was such a great concept that I always sort of got the feeling that's sort of where everybody wanted to be. And that there was something kind of, we've got to do these so we can get back.

Uh huh.

Paul Adelstein: Prison. I remember that. I remember that feeling.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Do you?

Jessalyn Gilsig: Yes. Like, that was the cool spot. The prison

Paul Adelstein: was cool. I mean, there was, and also, you also had the disadvantage, I just think, from a film crew thing of, like, you're always in a house, like, out in the western suburbs, and, like, it was hard to, like, get

Jessalyn Gilsig: there.

Don't touch anything. Don't sit down. Time. Tail light sits in. Coming around the island in the kitchen. Yeah. Again. Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. From an audience perspective. Those scenes are such a breath of fresh air. [00:10:00] Yeah, I mean, they're so vital to go, Oh, let's get out of the prison for a second. You know, it's, um,

Jessalyn Gilsig: Well, I also thought, I thought that, uh, the LJ character was great.

I thought he did such a, such an amazing job. And talk about somebody who could, embody so much emotion and a sort of quiet reflection. And he just, this kid had the world on his shoulders and he was so alone. And I just thought he gave an exceptional performance every time I worked

Sarah Wayne Callies: with him. How was it working with Marshall?

Because I mean, you had, you were coming from a career. And he was, I think, relatively new, right? I mean, that can be an interesting, you know, I feel like as women, often we play moms and you're sort of bringing someone into the business in a way. Like, how, how was that for you

Jessalyn Gilsig: guys? He was phenomenal. I mean, I thought that, uh, kind of like you guys are describing when, when somebody is bringing something that's so honest and so heartfelt, and [00:11:00] I never felt like he was really generating anything.

It felt like he sort of really just walked in, in, in this, this, this. Headspace I don't know what he was pulling on but it makes your job so much easier as you're suggesting because I just felt compelled to take care of him, you know, and I just felt compelled to protect him and then as you guys both know like then you're not acting anymore.

You're just You're just in the moment, taking care of each other. Um, and he was, he was lovely and he was excited to be there. And I mean, I just, I think I'm really lucky in all the ways that you set up what the role was, that he was so present in all of our scenes and, and so willing to sort of engage with me.

So I think it kind of elevated. the, what could have been a kind of, uh, just basic mom, kid relationship. I feel like, I liked the idea that they had always, that they had been alone together for a long time and [00:12:00] that she was in this new relationship, but that they had this bond, they had this sort of secret language and, uh, and they, and she was protective of that, but obviously she was still trying to, she saw this new relationship as.

Um, and, uh, so I think all that sort of complexity, he was available for that, at least it felt like he was. And so he made it from a, from an acting standpoint, I think he made it really easy.

Paul Adelstein: How did you, um, let's take a step back. How did you get the, how did you come to the role? Do you remember? Was it an audition?

Was it an offer?

Jessalyn Gilsig: No, I, I auditioned for your role, Sarah. Oh, did you? Oh, there you go. Yeah. I auditioned for your role. I've never heard of me. Yeah. And then

Sarah Wayne Callies: great. Oh, I

Jessalyn Gilsig: think we all know that's not true. You were brilliant. Um, I actually, it was funny. So I auditioned for that role and then I got [00:13:00] the call saying no.

Uh, but how about the ex wife? And I sort of feel like it launched my. Ex wife journey, which I've been on, on and

Sarah Wayne Callies: off screen for years. What is it that they say about women? We go from playing, uh, the girlfriend to the wife to the mother to the senator.

Jessalyn Gilsig: Oh,

Sarah Wayne Callies: yeah. And it's like you have Oh, that's amazing.

Jessalyn Gilsig: Yeah, I'm, I really live in the land of ex wife.

Like I, I'm either the mistress and now I'm the ex wife, but I'm never really the mom, I'm never the married mom or the, um, nice wife. I'm not the second wife. I'm always the first wife. Is

Sarah Wayne Callies: that, is that because you're a blonde? Like, that might be the difference between being a blonde and a brunette. As the brunette, I'm the, I'm the long suffering wife.

The husband is dying or the whatever.

Jessalyn Gilsig: I'm never the one like, where have you been? I'm not that. Yeah,

Sarah Wayne Callies: no, no. And I'm never the one who like, He leaves his [00:14:00] wife for. That's not my, people are like, you, you smell like stability to me. And I'm like, okay.

Jessalyn Gilsig: He won't leave her for me, but he'll definitely sleep with

Paul Adelstein: me.

Are you like the crazy first one? Are you like the, like, it was the crazy youth. It was, we were crazy kids. And I mean, that's what the prison.

Jessalyn Gilsig: Well, yeah, it used to be more like that. Like, yeah, definitely. Um, but now I'm like the crazy, just crazy. I don't know. The blonde, I think, is a good theory. Um, the other is, I think, which, again, I feel like, Sarah, you can relate to, is like, I just refuse to just be dismissed.

So I will always try to leave a little something behind to keep you thinking. And that usually becomes sort of, wait a second, She has an an agenda and a life goal that is beyond what he's interested in. And I just try to sort of leave that in the room and, and see if they can, they can do something with that.

Or if the audience might enjoy

Sarah Wayne Callies: that. [00:15:00] Well, and you know, it's, I mean, part of, I think what we're joking about here is especially in the early two thousands, the limitations, like there are these boxes. Yeah. Right. And the idea that you can be a fully fledged character and, uh, somebody with, you know, goals and dreams and hopes.

I think one of the things that I. that I was relieved to see, uh, is that they didn't turn her into a hot mess. Oh, she's a single mom. Oh, she's got to be a disaster. Oh, she's, you know, you have a sense of her as somebody who is put together, cares for her son, has a plan, and has a spine.

Jessalyn Gilsig: The way that I, that I relate to it is kind of what I said, which is I feel like they, when you're a single parent, you have this secret, you have this bond with your child that whoever else comes in.

You're just in a way you, you, You, you, you're [00:16:00] sort of always in negotiation with this connection that you have and they, and so I feel like in a way they could, they could continue alone, just the two of them, but then there's just so much, she feels very vulnerable. Maybe she's not setting him up as effectively as she could.

Could if she brings in this partner who can give them financial security, who maybe can give them emotional security that can give LJ more of a possibility of being able to be a kid and not having to grow up too fast. And so I think she's really trying, but I think either choice she makes is going to have a cost and she's trying to communicate that with him.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And as you've moved through the subsequent roles. Right. Glee, Vikings, etc. Um, I didn't mean to be reductive. I just mean like the etc is like, well, your resume is long and I don't, I'm never gonna get through it all. But like, do you see as this was 2005, do you feel like the roles are getting [00:17:00] more nuanced, more creative?

I mean, for instance, like I was thinking about even just. the difference of being on a show run by somebody like Ryan Murphy, who is going to have a different relationship to masculinity and therefore a different relationship to femininity as

Jessalyn Gilsig: well. That's a really good point. Ryan, Ryan's a great example of somebody who, I have a great Glee story that I think really epitomizes, uh, Ryan.

So when, uh, he called me one day and he said, I've written this pilot, uh, and we're looking for somebody to play the wife and I think you could do it. And I said, great. Oh my gosh. Amazing. You know, thank you so much. And, uh, Almost immediately, my reps called me and said, Listen, we know Ryan offered you this role, but we've already told him you're too old and you can't sing.

Wow!

Sarah Wayne Callies: Thank you for representing me with such care and [00:18:00]

Jessalyn Gilsig: And I was like, what? And they said, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he doesn't realize how old you are. You're so much older than Matthew Morrison. He has no idea. You have to call and tell him. I'm not kidding guys. Please

Sarah Wayne Callies: tell me these are now your ex agents. Yeah.

Jessalyn Gilsig: So I, I saw, they said I'm casting call. Everybody called me. You have to tell Ryan how old you are. You're so much older than Matthew. He doesn't know how old, they kept telling me you're so old. So I call Ryan and I book all of them. I know. And I called Ryan and I said, listen, Ryan, I'm so flattered. I'd love to obviously, I'm so old, but I'm so old.

I mean, I'm really old, Ryan. Um, I'm older than Matthew Morrison. And he said. This is what I know. You're somewhere between 30 and death. And that's what I knew

Sarah Wayne Callies: for this movie. Amazing. Um, I don't know Ryan Murphy, but I really love him [00:19:00] in this movie.

Jessalyn Gilsig: Right? So I, so I, I am older than Matthew Morrison. And what Ryan said to me also, which I loved, he said, the audience will believe anything you tell them.

They'll go with you. If you believe it, they believe it. And also, I don't know. You know, I don't. Also, you look amazing. If the woman was older than the man in the relationship. In this instance, we were supposed to have been in high school together. But that's neither here nor there. He was so right that, you know, I mean, didn't Sally Field play Tom Hanks mother?

Yes. To make the, in the worst possible way. So

Sarah Wayne Callies: I played Max Darriott's mom. We're like nine years apart. Horrifying. It happens all the time. So

Jessalyn Gilsig: disturbing. Uh, so yeah, to your point, I definitely think it goes, oh, we know this, that, uh, it goes showrunner by showrunner. I think that, [00:20:00] uh, I always thought that in a way, even though I started out thinking, like all of us, that we wanted film careers, I actually think I really benefited from ending up in TV.

Because I feel like in TV, I had the possibility to kind of, advocate for my character. You, you have more control than people realize. You know, when I did Nip Tuck, I was, it was supposed to be one episode, but I, yeah, and I just loved this character and I just thought that the way she's written, this isn't who she is.

She's, she's more than this. And I wanted to make that case and in that case I had a director that I'd worked with before, Elodie Keene, and she was really sort of, you know, it's not, it's not even, it's nothing that you have to verbalize. It's nothing that you don't go up to a director and say, I think my character is more interesting than the way you guys think she is.

You just have to, basically you [00:21:00] get what, two to six takes and then no matter what you do, they're going to move on. So you can kind of lay a lot of stuff in and say, I just don't, I'm not going to let this woman be forgotten. And I feel like that sort of has always been my approach is to kind of advocate.

I never really go to a producer and ask for anything. I just make the case for my character.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And I imagine because so many of, you know, I used to say that a leading man is someone with a full dramaturgical coherent life, and a leading woman is the person who gets him from A to B. And that's, that's the way it was forever, you know, and I'm sure like, Like me, you've read scripts and gone, you're asking me to do something completely nonsensical because you need his journey to make sense.

Right. And I think part of the gift of really great actors is. [00:22:00] you go, okay, I'm going to actually create a coherence where there isn't necessarily one, or I'm going to create a full fleshed out life where there's something that's two dimensional. And so often then I think, you know, and Paul and I both been directing a bit and you see this in the edit, you go, holy smoke, something's going on here.

Right. And, you know, I think good directors then ping upstairs and go, Hey, do yourself a favor, watch her dailies. She can do anything that you throw at her. And that becomes gold because they know, Hey, we've got to get some stakes up there. Go give them to Jessalyn. That's very

Jessalyn Gilsig: cool. You know, as, as a woman, I, when I, when I was on Vikings, that was a perfect example of, I was just a Canadian hire.

You know, they just needed a Canadian passport and I, we would shoot five cameras and I was Gabriel Byrne's wife and I had no lines, [00:23:00] but I knew that I was somewhere I was on camera. And I thought, I'm going to work on listening. I feel like I'm, that's what I'm, I'm going to take this opportunity to work on listening on camera.

And I would sort of look around the room and I would assess the different characters and I would, Generate ideas about them and thoughts. And then I always want to sleep with somebody. I think you always have to have sex in the room, right? That's why we're watching anyway. So always bring sex in. And, um, and then I have to say, Gabriel was amazing because Gabriel said to me one day, he said, I don't think I do anything without your permission.

So whenever I speak, I'm going to check with you first. So I had no lines, but he [00:24:00] would throw his look to me. So they would have to cut to me. Cut to you. Yeah. Can you imagine? So I get a call. from the editor one day. And she says, what are you thinking in this scene? And I said, Oh, well, I was thinking that, um, he, you know, my husband's not long for this world and I'm trying to figure out who I'm going to attach to, to get my, for my survival.

And she said, I'm going to cut to that.

Sarah Wayne Callies: That's

Jessalyn Gilsig: beautiful. And that set me up for the rest of my life on that show. There's no way that that anybody ever intended my character to survive Gabriel's, I won't give it away, but what happens to Gabriel, like nobody thought that, but I just thought, well, if I'm going to be living here in Ireland and I'm going to be on set for 16 hours a day and I'm not going to be speaking, it's still an opportunity to act.

It's still an opportunity to learn [00:25:00] and to grow. And I always think the character is your department, right? Wardrobes running wardrobe. Uh, you know, camera's running camera and you have to run your character and it's not about asking for more. It's not about looking for, it's really about delivering, you know, when at, at all times and supporting what, you know, supporting, like you were saying, like the direction that everybody's going, making a meaningful contribution to that.

The thing is, it, it just makes your day more interesting. Because if you show up on set and you decide, Oh God, I only have one line today, or I have nothing to say today, everybody else has interesting things to do today, you're just going to have a terrible day. So you might as well, you know, if you love to be an actor as, um, Donald Logue, who I'm sure you guys both know, uh, Oh, he's so great.

Um, he was on Vikings as well, but he, the best [00:26:00] thing he ever said to me, he said, any day I'm on a call sheet is a great day. Amen.

Sarah Wayne Callies: That's your chance to

Jessalyn Gilsig: do what you love and to, and to leave them with something like you guys said that they can work with and if they don't want it, that's fine, but at least you did, you did what you love and what you care about.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Boy, were they smart to hire you instead of background person who has never acted before. Like I got to say, there's something really interesting to me that somebody made the decision to go, can we get a real actor here? First of all, it's Gabriel Byrne. Give him a real actor. Um, And I love that decision from him because I've been talking, Paul and I have actually both been talking to our friend J.

August Richards about, written this, uh, he's teaching right now about how to be a serious regular. And it's like, you bring everybody in the room with you, everybody in the scene with you. Matters. They have a purpose and you have a relationship to them. And I've seen so many [00:27:00] actors, um, act the call sheet, which is like, well, I'm only going to look at number one and number two.

And you're like, right. But the person standing next to you supposedly shot your father. I get that there, they only have one line or maybe no lines, but your relationship to them has to be as deep and complex. Otherwise you're not telling the truth of the scene. And I love that he looked at you and was like, I'm going to make the decision.

Yes. You have to co sign everything, which is why you're silent because I'm speaking for both of us, which is just, that's, that's a story of two really talented actors elevating, elevating everybody around them. That's very cool.

Jessalyn Gilsig: And the other thing that he did was he, um, in the scene, uh, people have probably seen the show.

So in the scene where he is killed, he came to me one day and he said, He said, I want to go to the showrunner and ask that he write you into the scene. Because if I die and there's nobody there who cares about me, [00:28:00] the audience isn't going to care. Because the only reason it's going to matter is the look on your face.

Yep. Yep.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Smart. Your reaction to his death is what tells the audience what to feel. It's

Jessalyn Gilsig: about relationships. That's right. It's not about the, if, if it's not, if you don't have a relationship, it's about the fact that you don't have the relationship. Everything is about connection. And like I said, I actually think everything is about sex fundamentally, but it's really about wanting people to get together, wanting people to connect, wanting people to find each other.

So if you want to go on set and behave as if you have no association with any other character, it's Nobody's going to care about you.

Sarah Wayne Callies: You don't matter to the story, is

Jessalyn Gilsig: what you're saying. You don't matter, and you don't want anything. What do you want? You want connection. You want to be seen. You want to be loved.

Like, these are all the things that are driving us. We want to, you know, and we want power, or we want respect, or, you know, and so that all is relational.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, as a sort of as a lead in, it occurred to me, you know, you're our first [00:29:00] actress guest. Um, and it made me think about just what a different time it was.

So there was a director in the first season who would watch me get wired every time I had to put my mic on because you had to lift your shirt and do the whatever and said to me, and I still, the most shocking thing to me about this is that it took me five years to realize that it shouldn't have been said, which is.

a story about power in Hollywood. But he said to me one day, I'm watching because my wife is pregnant and it's been a while since I've seen a hard body. And I sort of didn't respond because what, what do you, what do you, what do you say when a grown man with a career, I'm, I don't know, 27, like very new in the business.

I'm also in a prison surrounded by an entirely male crew, almost, you know, 500 male extras. [00:30:00] And again, you know, part, I've been asking a lot of questions of our guests about shifting gender and masculinity and things like that in Hollywood because I think this needs to be a part of the conversation. The show took place in 2005 and that's coming on 20 years ago.

Things have changed, comma, sort of, question mark. I don't know if you want to speak to that in any way and don't feel like you have to because, you know, we've all been through a lot. Um, but that was Uncommon.

Jessalyn Gilsig: No. Well, first of all, I'm so sorry. Yeah. Yeah, but that's, that's how, but, but that's exactly how we've absorbed it.

I know I, the list of stories that I have is

Sarah Wayne Callies: endless and we all do. Yeah, I know. [00:31:00]

Jessalyn Gilsig: Yeah. And, um, we just like you, like exactly what you did in that moment. And what were you going to do in that moment? What were you going to do? You have to get the day. You're getting wired. You don't expect it because you're at work, you know, so you think you're in a professional setting where you're being received as a professional.

And suddenly this, this, you know, this comment comes out that immediately tells you who you are and who you are in person and you get so much care into, into getting up that morning Preparing yourself for the day, preparing your work, thinking about this, you know, this profession that you've, I'm sure you're out of town, you're away from your family, you are, you know, you've committed yourself to this show, and to this job, and to telling this story, and then in that instant you're immediately told, by the way, you're nothing.[00:32:00]

You're, could be anybody. You are just something for me to look at right now. I own you. Yeah. And it just takes the floor out from under you. You know, and now you got to walk on set and you got to do your job. The same job that the man is doing across from you, but he hasn't had any of that experience in that day and he never will.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Without any sense that there's anyone you could even tell. And that I wonder is maybe the difference. I still think those things happen on sets, but I do think my hope is, I'm, I'm literally, I know I told Paul, I was like, if I talk about this, it's going to be because I want young women listening to know, I think it still happens, but there will be someone on that set.

First of all, it's the first AD's job if they overhear something like that to report. But I think now my hope is not that people won't say those things because I'm not that naive, but I, my hope is. [00:33:00] that there will be people around to go, Hey, honey, just so you know, honey, whatever. Sarah, just so you know, I've got this.

You don't need to worry about this. I'm going to take care of this. Or I could go to somebody and go, Hey, um, Jocelyn, this just happened. Is this like, how does this feel to you? And that there's someone else to go completely wrong. Yeah. Let's go, let's go have a conversation. I don't know.

Jessalyn Gilsig: I think that, uh, I'm hopeful as you are that the culture, that the, that the, that the culture is shifting, that people even just, that, that, that kind that we're all more, that even men now understand maybe better that it's not appropriate.

And. I, I think the redistribution of power and representation is making a big change, you know, is also changing it. I mean, I would say the only show I can really [00:34:00] think of that I didn't endure some kind of harassment was, um, when I worked for Shonda Rhimes. Interesting. That's the only time that, that something wasn't in play on the table where I wasn't feeling sort of reduced or where I didn't feel like there was an offer or some kind.

I feel like that was the only time when I worked for a female showrunner. The big takeaway for me. During me too, which was, I have to say, like, actually, I was very surprised by what, how much it affected me, because I think to what you're describing, which is, I realized how much I had endured and never, ever, ever verbalized.

And now it was sort of coming out into the light and I just felt like, wow, what would it have all been like if I hadn't actually absorbed. You know, like you say, I mean, I very deliberately moved from Canada. I was an actor. I made my way to the States. I paid my way through [00:35:00] college. I loved what I did.

Like I wanted, I believed in what I was doing. And then I came out to Hollywood and I was exactly as you experienced told over and over again. That I was just this body to be objectified or to really, you know, that, that there was a expectation to pay to play. And I lost a lot of jobs because I wouldn't do that.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh, you lose so much work.

Jessalyn Gilsig: Yeah. So much work. So much

Sarah Wayne Callies: work. And then you watch the men that you came up with, you watch their careers go through

Jessalyn Gilsig: the ceiling. Okay. That's the thing. Is it me? And then you go, no. Yes,

Sarah Wayne Callies: because you can't network with those men, because you network with them, they take you to dinner and you're like, fuck, this is not the dinner that it needs to be.

I, I mean, show after show after show after show, I would work with these guys. And I would watch them. Yeah. It's

Jessalyn Gilsig: the mentorship. So that I think has changed because [00:36:00] that's exactly, exactly to your point. I remember being on Boston public and I remember David Kelly walking over to a fellow actor, good friend of mine and saying, you should come into the editing room.

You should come and see. And I was never, Invited into the editing room. I was in your Harvard degree, like a lot of dinners, a lot of long, boring dinners where I had to hear about how you don't like your wife and you, nobody understands you and bloody, bloody, bloody your career and how great you were. But nobody ever said you should.

Paul Adelstein: You want to direct, you should edit, you should come in the writer's room. Not

Jessalyn Gilsig: once in my life. Not once. Now it's changing. And now I think it's changing for younger women. Where I think, um, women, and you need more women to do that. You need women to mentor women because men are still concerned about the optics.

And so, but there's a, there are [00:37:00] generations of women, including ours. Like, I hear a lot of, you know, Uh, men now being so proud that they're hiring female writers. But those female writers are all under 40. Where, who's hiring the female writers in their 50s who never ever got those opportunities to be showrunners, to be head writers, to have this, you know, it, it's, it's easy to mentor somebody younger, but, but in reality, like you're saying, we came up with so many of these guys.

We were, we came in just as qualified, just as ready, just as passionate. And we saw them. be mentored into producer roles. And they're running huge shows now.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Or to have, to walk off of a hit show and have so many interesting, different, layered, nuanced characters to walk into. I mean, I worked on a show with a friend of mine who walked into a giant career.

We had a conversation once and I was like, name one [00:38:00] movie you've done in the last five years with more than four female characters. You're in these shows that are, they're sausage fests, and that means your resume builds. That means people look and go, oh, he's working. I was like, when people look at me and wonder what's she been doing, the answer is waiting for a part that's worth her skill.

Forgive me. But like, it's, it's such, it's, it's fascinating. Um. It's fascinating. And one of the interesting knock on effects that I've seen, and I'm sure you have too, of the V2 movement, is, you know, you'll hear from older white male directors like, well, you know, I just can't get a job anymore. And not only is that demonstrably untrue, but what's amazing to me is that, And I actually said this to someone who's not speaking to me anymore, is if you had spent time in the last 20 years developing meaningful relationships with female creatives, they would be hiring you now.

That's right. If you knew the women who are now the producing directors and the showrunners and the creators, they would be hiring you. And I know that because I'm on shows created by women [00:39:00] who hire older white men. Cause sometimes you guys are great at what you do and you got Emmys and it's great. And we're happy to have you.

If you don't know any of them. There's a mirror. There's a mirror that you can look into.

Jessalyn Gilsig: I always said, you know, before me too, I would say, I do feel like the film industry is one of the last to kind of, uh, you know, people would say, well, it's not like this for me and my job and my job. And I think, well, I don't think anybody's really paying attention to this industry.

I mean, it's really the wild west here. And I think a lot of the fun of the job before this. Awareness was that there were hot women around and you could make them sleep with you, you know, like you could hire pretty girls and you could make them sit and have dinner with you. And that was one of the perks

Sarah Wayne Callies: of the job.

Jessalyn, I'm writing a show for us called The Perks. It's going to be a comedy. We're going to sell it to Shonda. [00:40:00]

Jessalyn Gilsig: It's interesting. It's really interesting. I mean, it just, I mean, I've always felt like as an actor, I think what happens also is then people spend all day looking at you in the edit room and then they think they know you and then they think you're in a relationship and then you're like, I don't even know you.

Why do you feel so good? There's, there's a lot of, It's, it's, it is definitely complex, and at the same time, like, to go back to Sarah's story, sometimes it's just fucking

Sarah Wayne Callies: wrong. And I, my hope is that what we can start to do, you know, I mean, what you said, the step one is inclusion, which is not to say that female directors are perfect about all things all the time.

Everybody's got a learning curve. Um. I, what I'm hoping is that we are starting to raise a generation with slightly less of that. misogyny. I, you know, it's, it [00:41:00] feels like it's different. Even having this conversation. Yeah. In 2005 would have been, would have been silly. And like you, I think the journey of the early years of the Me Too movement for most of the women I knew, myself included, was going through Like a forensic dive of our history and going, Oh my God, I, I had a female producer to say to me, you know, I, my career, I just must be lucky.

I just, I haven't gone through the same kinds of things I'm hearing about. Two years later, she's like, Oh Sarah, boy, was I wrong? I just never, they never even, I didn't even tell my husband when I came home that night because that kind of thing was so commonplace. And also I was in the like, I have things to do.

I can't let this bug me. And so. I feel like I'm rambling a little bit, but I, but I think our, as we uncatalog that and unpack it, we are [00:42:00] also telling the women coming up, let me just make this real clear. This isn't okay. You can take steps. I will get your back. Um, and I'm hoping that as they then raise the next generation in Hollywood, as the producers, as the writers, as the show creators, as the directors, things, you know, the needle starts to shift.

Jessalyn Gilsig: Um, I think you're absolutely right. I think it already has. I think it's a culture shift. I think it's an awareness. It's like you say, it's having even the, the language around it. And I think it makes the workplace so much better, you know, it's so much, everybody can do much better work when they feel safe.

Sarah Wayne Callies: That's exactly right. We have to do dangerous work. We've talked about this before here. We've got to do dangerous work, feeling safe. Let's

Paul Adelstein: take a quick break. And then, uh, we'll come back and we'll answer some fan questions.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Let's do some fan questions. Fan

Paul Adelstein: questions. Oh, let's do [00:43:00] some fan questions. So, uh, Jessalyn on, um, on our IG, we said, Hey, we're having Jessalyn. Do you have any questions

Sarah Wayne Callies: for her? This is pretty speculative. Um, But, uh, C. E. Brown with two N's asked, how do you think the relationship would have developed if Lisa, between Lisa and LJ, if she'd escaped Hale and Kellerman?

Like, do you have an alternate universe in your head of?

Jessalyn Gilsig: I was really surprised by the death. I didn't know. I didn't go into the job knowing that that was going to happen, uh, and no, and so I was pretty excited about, about where everything was going. Um, and. Yeah, I think, uh, well, I always just sort of thought that I would reconnect with Dominic's character in some way, you know, that we would, we would get to sort of dive more into that sort of history and that connection and maybe, you know, how that had dissolved and if there was anything still [00:44:00] there and that kind of thing.

So I was, I, I was hoping, um, I was hoping to outrun you, Paul.

Sarah Wayne Callies: You're not the only one. I think it was Dani

Jessalyn Gilsig: that I mean, I feel like you, you gave the order.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah, I was running, I was running the show. Sorry, I apologize for that. I forgive you

Jessalyn Gilsig: now.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Okay, thank you. So, super, super grateful, uh, to you for this conversation and your candor and, and honesty and openness about what it's like to walk this path.

Because I think the only way we make it better is by being honest about where we've come from. Um, we're also very sorry that you died on the show. Yes. Paul is sorry that he killed you. Yes. Very sorry. Or that he had you killed. Yes. Um, we have two final questions that we ask all of our guests. The first is if you were on death row, what was your last

Jessalyn Gilsig: meal be?

Okay. This I actually know and I get a lot of, uh, flack for this. Cause

Sarah Wayne Callies: I've

Paul Adelstein: been on death row and

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well,

Jessalyn Gilsig: this happened recently where I was sitting [00:45:00] around with friends and we did this and they were all Uh, you know, uh, talking about what they would have. And I said That I would like a poached egg.

I mean I want it on toast like a piece of buttered toast and I got so much flack for it. I mean

Paul Adelstein: I'm gonna I might give you some that just it's I mean, it's very comfort. It's comfort food I guess it just reminds me of like staying home sick from school and my mother making me a soft boiled egg I

Jessalyn Gilsig: think I was just born an old lady.

I want to know why You know every Every Halloween, my entire childhood, I wore the exact same costume and I was an old lady. And I was full in character like the whole time. If you see pictures of me, I mean, it's not, you can't, I won't even break character for the entire night of Halloween, which is not a fun when you're out with your friends and you're the old lady, but I mean, [00:46:00] I was committed.

And so I have a feeling it's all related and that I just love a poached egg on toast. And that is because I'm an octogenarian. And some

Paul Adelstein: chamomile, and some chamomile tea kind of thing. Like is it? Yeah,

Sarah Wayne Callies: sure. By the way, what that answer tells me is you're not going to be on death row. Like people who want poached eggs for a last meal don't end up, don't end up on death row.

Like I, your life is safe. Yeah. I

Paul Adelstein: wonder if there's some data, some horrible database that lists meals and I cannot imagine that

Sarah Wayne Callies: coming up.

Jessalyn Gilsig: It's also hard to make a good egg, so that would give me a shot at a longer life.

Paul Adelstein: This isn't right. I'm sending

Sarah Wayne Callies: it back. Because, uh, the egg was completely cooked through. And that's not how you poach an egg. Uh, amazing.

Paul Adelstein: All right. And our final question is a fill in the blank question for you. It's our sign off. And [00:47:00] it's to our audience. And it's advice, which is don't go to prison. But if you do go to prison, make sure that you

Jessalyn Gilsig: Blank.

Bring a pencil.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Great. That's it, ladies and gentlemen. Don't go to prison, but if you do go to prison, bring a pencil. Bring a pencil.

Paul Adelstein: All right. Thank you to our guest, Jesslyn Gilsig. Thank you for being here with us. And we will see you next time.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I wish we had worked together. I look forward to it in the future.

There's still time. There's still time. Thank you everyone for being with us. Jesslyn, thank you especially. We'll see you guys next time. Thanks. Bye! Prison Breaking with Sarah and Paul is a Calibre Studio production. Our hosts have been friends, but not besties, Sarah Wayne Callies and Paul Edelstein. Our prison warden has been producer Ben Haber.

Our head of Jailhouse Rock is Paul Edelstein, who made the music for this podcast. Keeping us slim and trim, the prison yard has been [00:48:00] sound designer and editor, the great Jeff Schmidt. Keeping us up to date on the outside world is production assistant Drew Austin. Our prison artist logo and brand designer is John Zito and Little Big Brands.

Check them out at www.littlebigbrands.com. Follow us on Instagram at Prison Break Podcast. Email us at prison breaking@caliber-studio.com and call us at four oh one three PBR Breaking and Paul has been a studio production. Thank you for listening.