Ayanna Serving In Her Purpose ===
Nneka: [00:00:00] Welcome, welcome, welcome. Welcome to Behind the 90 with Nneka. I am so, so excited, uh, for today's guest. Her name is Ayanna Harris. She is very special to me and I'll go into a little more about who she is, but before we get started, I always like to explain what the 90 means. 90 percent of what we go through in life is about our past and only 10 percent is about the present.
So the 90 percent represents our story. So it's so very important to tap into people's stories and so that's why we're here today because I think it's so important for us to understand the 90 percent which again represents a person's story. So, the title for today's discussion, we had a part one to this, and it's titled Serving in Your Purpose.
I'm always so [00:01:00] interested to see and, well, to hear how people have come to serve in the area in which they've been called to serve. And so, I have Not only is she one of, um, the senior therapists here at Nneka Owens Associates, she has her own practice as well, and she's a friend. And her name is Ayanna Harris, and I would just like to introduce her and welcome her to Behind the 90 with Nneka Owens.
It's podcast. Hi, Ayana. Thank you so much for being here today.
Ayanna: Hi, Mika. I'm happy to be here and still kind of can't believe you want little old me on your beautiful podcast, this new venture you're doing. And I'm so happy that you are doing something that is important to you. So whatever I can do to advance this effort for you, I'm happy to do.
Well, I appreciate
Nneka: that. I am honored because I don't take for granted that You are a busy person. Like I say, you own your own mental health. You're on your own practice. You're a mental health professional [00:02:00] and I have had, it has been such an honor to work with you. Ayana is the type of person who's very consistent in who she is.
You, It's, it's like, how can I describe it? She's very consistent in being kind, being resourceful, being, I mean, just a breath of fresh air in terms of her knowledge. I often like to say you are quick on your feet. You are. When a question is asked of you, I'm always amazed at how good you are with lining up your words together.
And I'm always so impressed. And I'm like, if you weren't my friend, I would ask you to be my therapist. Because you are so insightful. I like, we have like so many. Supervision when we can actually have case conceptualization, I always like the feedback that I get from you. Um, [00:03:00] cause as therapists, we, you know, we have to kind of, you know, uh, support each other in those efforts just so that we're doing the best that we can do for our clients.
So I want to ask you this. When we, when we talk about serving in your purpose, again, this is part two because I did one for myself. When you were growing up, As a young child, you know, some people say, I want to be a lawyer. I want to be a doctor. What did you say
Ayanna: you wanted to be? I didn't say I wanted to be a therapist.
You did not. I never said that. I don't even know If I knew then depending on how far back i'm going, but if I am going back to really early Early years. No, I don't even think I'd ever even had exposure to this profession or even any of his, you know, related, uh, cousins in the field, the social workers, the psychologist.
I don't think I had any concept of that. I think probably my early career ambitions as I, you know, uh, progressed through my schooling [00:04:00] as a, uh, middle schooler and high schooler and even early years of college. I really wanted to once upon a time, uh, have a career in broadcasting in some way. I wanted to, uh, be on television.
I think my dream career, I think I said this one time, I don't know if I said this to you or anyone here, but I have shared with friends in the past. I used to imagine myself being a news anchor. Like on the, and they said it too. Everybody I've ever said that to say, I could see you doing that. Um, I think I used to envision myself, um, anchoring like the six o'clock news or something like that.
Um, I don't know what it was about that that spoke to me, but I saw myself doing that. Now, interesting thing about wanting to do that is that I was never some outspoken kind of person. I was never one who just enjoyed being seen and being noticed and [00:05:00] being front and center. I didn't really enjoy that.
Just. Um, in a natural social way, but with a job, right, if it's, if it was my job in my training to do something like that, Oh, I definitely felt like I could have done it and kind of knocked it out of the park. So for
Nneka: sure, for sure. That hits when I said, you know, the way you communicate, the way you line your words up together, you command that attention.
And so when. Ayana opens up her mouth. You know, it's going to be something profound because you don't talk to just be talking. That's just not who you are.
Ayanna: You talk. I do not. I do
Nneka: not. But you, Ayana is, if she's speaking, you know, it's something well thought out. It's not, she ain't shooting from the hip, but you can shoot from the hip though.
You can, but if it's something that someone is saying, Hey, like I said, you can't shoot from the hip. [00:06:00] If it's something that you need to think about, you're not going to just answer to be answering. You're going to sit back, you're going to process. And that's one of the things that I admire about you. You sit back and you process.
You don't make emotional decisions. Thank you so much. You're like, let's process this for a minute.
Ayanna: Well, that's a blessing and a curse. The thinking about what I'm going to say or do. And then, okay, you've thought about it enough. Are you going to do something? Are you going to say something? So there's, there are times where, where that kind of gets to be in a, in a little fix where, okay, you, you really, you've thought about this long enough.
You really need to do
Nneka: something. So let's get more to that then, because, so you're saying that there are times that you will belabor a point until you can't anymore. And it, so it causes you to move a little slower. With executing something.
Ayanna: Is that what you're saying? [00:07:00] Maybe not, maybe not belabor a point, but belabor a decision that needs to be made.
I tend to, uh, I spend, I just spend a lot of time thinking about all of the pros, all of the cons, all of the things that I think are the limiting. Um, uh, aspects of it. And those are the things that, you know, they freak me out. I get freaked out by those things. And so trying to work through everything that might be the barrier, but meanwhile, I haven't really executed, you know, my plan or my idea.
And so, yeah, there's, there's a benefit to thinking things through, especially when you're speaking to, to someone, but then when, when you have to make a decision, um, and everything. Isn't necessarily perfect, but you do have to do something. And I've been there many times and I'm probably at that point now, probably this, there are decisions that I still have yet to make that I have not, you know, really, uh, pull the trigger [00:08:00] on.
But because of my, you know, introverted nature, my cautious nature, I just think about it so long.
Nneka: So is that something you feel like you need to change? You want to redefine the tag or are
Ayanna: you happy with it? Yeah. I would like to get beyond that. I really would because as in my work, when I, when I'm confronted with that, with a person, I'm like, that's me.
I don't tell them that I'm like, that's me. And you are me right now. Um, I say, I validate that the, whatever the barriers they think are there are likely valid. Like it's, it's probably true that whatever you think is a, is a potential threat to this idea. It's probably true, but does that necessarily mean that you can't?
Do this. There's not too many things that we're going to do that will be executed with, [00:09:00] with no flaw or with our coming across some sort of speed bump when doing it, or even some sort of, it may even be delayed. Even if you're in the midst of, of getting it done, it may get delayed in some way. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.
And so I'm able to say that to them, but then I'm like, okay, well, Ayanna, you know, there's that thing you've been needing to do and you're waiting for all of the pieces to line up. And so, and you kind of got to stop doing it.
Nneka: Right. Yeah. Where do you feel like you learned that? I'm just curious, since we're on the topic, where do you feel, were you always like that even as a kid?
Ayanna: Probably. I think so. I probably, when I, when I think back to even being a. High school, for instance, um, if there was a project to do, that's probably the most high stakes thing that you have going on at that age. There's no major decision I had to make at that point, but there's something I need to do. And I'm watching the [00:10:00] clock run out and I'm feeling like, okay, am I ready?
Do I have my outline prepared? Like I was supposed to have my outline prepared. Do I have all my resources here? Can I, can I now sit down and write this paper? You just needed to sit down and start writing the paper. You just needed to start doing it, start some place. But I probably have always been like that to some degree.
But like I said, in, at that time, there wasn't much more on the line other than a good grade in a class, a good grade on a project. Well, now the stakes are higher. Now it's, it's, what am I going to do with my life?
Nneka: Yeah, that's good. I'm curious, why didn't you pursue a career? You said in journalism, right? Or um, news anchor.
So why didn't
Ayanna: you pursue that? Why didn't I? Um, I remember my first year of college. I attended a community college before I, uh, later transferred over to Western Michigan, where I finished my bachelor's degree. But I started out, um, [00:11:00] local college in Saginaw and I took a psych one on one course as a prerequisite.
It was like 100 or 101, probably 101,
Nneka: but you went in thinking,
Ayanna: yeah, I'm going to think communications, right. Communications, right. Would have been my major at the time. Now I'm a freshman. So there's no real defined major at this point, community college. You don't necessarily have to have your major identified, but I took, you know, my prerequisites.
And one of them was a site, a 100 level course. I started to learn about some of those fundamentals of the psychology field and I was intrigued. Now, you know. That's not necessarily teaching us the delivery and the practice necessarily of therapy and counseling, but it is giving just that is given that introduction into the human mind and human development across time [00:12:00] and different approaches.
And I just became more and more intrigued by it. And I said, okay, well maybe, maybe when I transfer, I'm going to change my major to psychology. And so I did.
Nneka: So you got, so did you get an, you got an associate's?
Ayanna: I only stayed there just for one semester. Actually two. Did a few credits and then finally transferred over to, um, to Western where I finished my bachelor's degree and I did major in psychology at that point.
Okay.
Nneka: So you got your bachelor's degree from Western in psychology. Yeah. I never knew that. This
Ayanna: is wonderful. That's not the one hanging on the wall. That's not the one that's hanging on the wall. It's the, the, the grand, The grandmother of, of
Nneka: the degree. So then you went on to say, Hey, I really like this. I did.
And so then you decided to. You know higher education even more I did [00:13:00] Explain that how did that all come about?
Ayanna: Um, the decision to to follow the the career? So so here's the thing getting your bachelor's in Psychology and at this point I would say even in Any of the other related types of fields. What I didn't necessarily know as much as I enjoy the subject matter and in all of that, even, even the projects that I would do at times and what I would learn from those things, I didn't necessarily know.
What a job and a career would look like at that level. Now, yes, at, by this point I did have some, uh, some exposure to what, um, actual clinical work would look like. I knew what a therapist was by that point. I knew what a psychologist was at that point. Not a lot, but I had some basic knowledge of what those [00:14:00] jobs entail.
What I did not know is that a bachelor's degree would not necessarily qualify me and would not necessarily get me into doing that. I was not going to be Frasier Crane with, I wasn't going to be Frasier Crane with just a bachelor's degree. So I was like, okay, so I do need to start thinking about Uh, graduate work at this point.
I think I really started, uh, thinking more seriously about that. Probably my junior year. Okay. Okay. I'm going to need to get a master's going to need to get a master's. Okay.
Nneka: So what did you, what would you tell our listeners, someone who's actually pursuing a psychology degree undergrad, what type of work did you find, uh, with a psychology degree?
Wow. So with
Ayanna: a bachelor's degree in psychology, it is because it's so broad. And it's still very much entry level. You [00:15:00] find yourself really going into case management roles, um, either at, uh, in private agencies. So nonprofit organizations oftentimes have, um, that is geared towards serving people. And so they're looking for people that have, uh, backgrounds in psychology or any, most of the liberal arts types of fields is where you can start to get that work experience to prepare yourself for advanced training and, um, advanced positions.
So nonprofit sector is one. Um, I also found that there was a space within, um, certain parts of the educational realm. So obviously not being a teacher because that's a specialized position as well. But like after school programs and tutoring programs like that, I worried. didn't necessarily have to have specialized training, but you could just [00:16:00] practice, um, uh, serving and managing and teaching people in a, in a different type of way, skill building assistance with people.
Um, and then of course, there's your community mental health based programs where they do hire at the bachelor's level. Um, and again, that's, That's probably some of the most intense training ground for someone looking to have a career in, uh, any kind of clinical therapeutic role. Um, and I found, found myself working in pretty much all of those that I just named at different points in time.
Yeah.
Nneka: So what type of, um, positions have you
Ayanna: held? Oh goodness. So many, uh, case management and For a long time, um, I spent a good piece of my career in the child welfare space and the child welfare space and you probably know this as [00:17:00] well, um, has a lot of opportunity in it to gain exposure to working with, you know, diverse populations from, uh.
Servicing families to either help keep their families out of the court system or to assist them as they're going through the court system and even thereafter, because if they, if you've ever seen a family, or if you, you know, have ever had the misfortune of ever having to be involved in the child welfare court system, you need a lot of support.
Even as your family comes out of that. So I've been able to work in that space for a long time at all at each end at each phase of that process to serve families, to serve both the child who may have been separated from their family to serve the parent as they are working to have their child reunited back with them and then help restore those families.
Once they're back together,
Nneka: you know, yeah, that has to be very, [00:18:00] well, as you know, I've worked in community mental health too, so it is definitely very rewarding and I am so happy that I had that opportunity and not that I, you know, now that, you know, we're in private practice, do I forget, you know, community mental health, the importance of community mental health, um, because the importance of quality care.
Um, so we have so many, um, wonderful, you know, serve, you know, providers out there that really, really, um, you know, really perform well in that space. Um, so I'm always looking for opportunities to provide community service even in the private sector. It's always looking to extend in outside of the office here.
Yeah. So that's, that's great. Um, so then you worked in community mental health for how would you say for how long?
Ayanna: Community mental health was probably my shortest. I did it, but it was my shortest stint and it didn't take me long being in the community mental health space to know just [00:19:00] what it would require and that it, it just really was not a fit.
For me, community mental health. Now, child child welfare has its own challenges, but I felt more effective in that space than I did in community mental health space. Um, like you said, it's, you want to know that you're giving quality services to these vulnerable people in your community who Would not otherwise be able to access the proper mental health care that they need.
But I just saw the focus being very heavily volume oriented versus. Yeah. And so it's a, it's a high burnout position on the case management role within community mental health, high burnout, high turnover, and as much as, even though there's so much to learn, right, because you're going to get exposed to a multitude of different psychiatric diagnoses.
From the [00:20:00] consumers that you serve. So you're going to learn a lot. You're going to learn a little bit about psychopharmacology cause you're going to learn about all the different meds that your, it's your clients are prescribed. Um, treatment planning and all that. You're going to learn all of that.
You're also going to feel like, what am I doing? Yeah. And that is not to disparage the profession, the profession, the merit of the profession and the merit of the, of what the, uh, Entity that provides CMH services is purpose to do that. The merit is still there. However, it's still heavily volume, uh, focused.
And sometimes when we are focused on volume, it can, it compromises.
Nneka: I would agree. I would agree. I remember the paperwork was never
Ayanna: ending. It was never
Nneka: ending. So like you said, you definitely want it to be balanced. I understand, you know, the importance of paperwork, but you [00:21:00] also want to invest the time in your clients too.
So that's very important. So, You, you're no longer in community mental health. Mm hmm.
Ayanna: No, I'm in child welfare either. No, okay,
Nneka: so those are two different
Ayanna: entities. Yeah, two different entities. Child welfare mostly will involve or exclusively involve, you know, the state when the state of Michigan comes in to assist with some sort of abuse, neglect, complaint, um, whether, again, whether a child is removed from the home or not, because even if they're not, even if a family, Um, receives complaints about potential abuse and neglect.
It puts them on the radar, puts them on the radar of, of the department. And so now having an obligation now to this family, the state usually tries to put in some sort of services to assist them because again, even if they can substantiate that a, um, that abuse has happened, [00:22:00] that warrants removal. The different levels of it.
Um, they've identified some kind of risk that some risk has been identified that that now warrants some services. And in the state of Michigan does have a pretty good menu of different services available, um, throughout the state of Michigan, different programs to service families at different need levels to help again, either a system through the court process to help restore their families after they have reunited or things to really prevent on the front end to help prevent, you know, a family from ever experiencing their child being remote.
And there, it's a lot. It's, it's, there's a lot of families involved in, in each level of that. The state probably takes in tens of hundreds of thousands of complaints every year. So that's a lot of families being touched.
Nneka: Wow. Okay. Um, [00:23:00] what other, thanks for just, you know, you know, clarifying that I was kind of made them one in the same, but they were two separate. Yeah. So I appreciate that clarity. What other positions? I know, haven't you done some teaching to adjunct professor? I did.
Ayanna: I did have an opportunity, um, to simultaneously, I had three jobs at one time being a therapist, being a manager with an agency and, uh, and.
Being an adjunct professor, I really enjoyed that. Um, I had an opportunity to teach again, an entry level, um, home visiting course, um, to, uh, prospective social workers, um, at a local school and I really enjoyed that. I really enjoy. Seeing young adults and not all young adults, some non traditional students, some who were already working in different parts of the workforce, um, who already had children, maybe already married, or this is a second career for them [00:24:00] that they're embarking on.
I really enjoyed teaching. I really did. So are you still teaching? No, no time for it right now. Um, It is something that at a later point, I fully intend to pursue because I do think that, you know, once I feel like I've, I've done what I've needed to do here in the private practice, therapeutic space that, okay, the next place I think I'm purposed to be is to teach those who want to do this.
Nneka: Supervision, like graduating, well, master level. Yeah.
Ayanna: Yeah. Now they were undergrad, but even still, um, any, in any respect, uh, to be able to teach, you know, future professionals. that that's where I would for sure see the next part of my, my career being.
Nneka: So [00:25:00] as a, um, private practice owner, as yourself, what type of clients do you see?
Ayanna: So I, I see a variety of types of clients right now. Um, primarily individuals, adult, um, occasionally some adolescents, um, usually around age 15 and up, um, coming in for a variety of different life stress, life. Related issues that are causing stress for them in some way. So individuals usually coming in for some issue that they're having difficulty adjusting to, or a very major thing happening in their life.
Grief. Um, marital discord, relationship issues, um, discontent in their professional life. Um, um, looking for redirection about where they would like their, their [00:26:00] life to go. Um, family challenges and family extended beyond maybe having children and spouses, but, uh, longstanding, uh, family conflict with parents and siblings.
And just. Every measure of a thing that probably touches their lives, they're battling it in some way. So I, I'm seeing that right now as we speak, and I've seen that a lot over time in the men and women and children that I've serviced.
Nneka: Okay, that's good. Yeah. Um, What would you say, would you say that, you know, historically, you know, people have always said that in the African American community that we don't seek counseling.
Would you say you've seen a change in that?
Ayanna: I think so. I think so. Because I, I can say there are, I have clients who as I, as I hear their stories and [00:27:00] what, what all their life entailed up to this point, I know that they are probably doing this meaning coming to seek help. They're probably doing it with not a lot of support behind them to do it and I do serve predominantly an african american client base now it is diverse, but predominantly I do serve a an african american client base and that's specifically because A lot of them wish to be treated by another African American clinician because of all of the different concerns they've had about not just getting mental health therapy, but healthcare in general.
Healthcare in general, our community has, they've had a conflicted relationship with Where they know they need to care for themselves, right? They know they need medical treatment, but they've been worried about whether or [00:28:00] not they're going to get the proper treatment when they show up to the doctor's office, if they'll get the right diagnosis, if they'll get the intervention is going to work for them.
So I'm just seeing an all around distrust at times for the medical community in general, that even more so when we talked about, if you're talking to them about mental health, which is, you know, it's not an ache or a pain. It's not high blood pressure. It's not high blood sugar. It's just, they feel bad and they like, okay, well I felt bad before.
I'll be okay. But more and more they're starting to realize, no, I don't think I want to live like this. But I also want to talk to somebody who might kind of understand what I'm dealing with And so yeah, they are looking for someone who looks like them. Yeah to validate that. Yes, you've made the right decision
Nneka: Yes.
Yeah, so and I and I can echo that like I said when I You know, it always, you know, whenever anybody makes the decision [00:29:00] to, you know, come to counseling because that's a huge decision to make because you are disclosing some intimate details about your life. So anybody that comes, I am overjoyed and so happy to serve.
But when I see our people, I'll be honest with you, African Americans, I am, it touches me in a way that. Yeah, that, that I can't, it's undescribable. We're, we're happy to have them here. Yes. Yes. So it's like, yes, we're, we're not up under that. What goes in this house stays in this house. We're, let's talk about it.
Let's, you know, get somebody that can help me work through this. And if I'm, you know, need to redefine some things or redefine some relationships or what have you, let me have someone that can, yeah. Guide me along the way, not tell me what to do, because that's not what we're here to do. We're not here to tell you what to do, but we want to give you some kind of direction.
So recommendations for consideration.
Ayanna: That's what I [00:30:00] like to say. Recommendation for
Nneka: consideration. That's it. Perfect. Right. That's it. That's it. So if you had someone, Ayanna, as we wrap it up here, if you had someone that Was contemplating, you know, should I do therapy or should not? How would you encourage that person to make that first step?
What would you say to them? If it was a family member? Oh goodness.
Ayanna: If it was a family member, a friend, if they're thinking about making this first step to seek out, um, help for themselves, I would ask them to ask themselves how long have you been dealing with this? What do you imagine things to look like if you continue to have to live like this?
Yes, I see your reaction. I'm
Nneka: like, yes, those are such good questions. It's such good questions. It's [00:31:00] just
Ayanna: like. Yeah, because it really does come down to that when we're talking about seeking out mental health. And, and we're not necessarily dealing with some of the acute sorts of conditions. That's a whole other type of help that people often need it, which often goes unaddressed just as well.
But when we're talking about ways help for managing just these daily life issues, or again, like I said, long standing issues of conflict that you've had with loved ones and this, and you're like, where do we go from here? I still have to see you. And yet I have to get through this thing that, that happened between us.
How long do you, do you want to live like this? Do you, do you see a path where this continues to be in the path and you can go forward with it? Do you, do you see that as a possibility? Depending on how you answer that, then determines whether or not you need to seek out some help. That's right.
Nneka: So that's lovely.
That's really good. I am. I'm sure I [00:32:00] know you are booked in busy, but I would like for you to share with our listeners how they can reach you. Yeah. Um, if they are looking for calcium, you are taking new clients. Um, if you can give your information, that would be great. And I'll put it, I'll actually kind of, you know, put it in the, um, context of the podcast so that everyone can have it.
But if you can let people know where they can reach you.
Ayanna: Absolutely. So, I'll, listen, my social media presence is there. Is yet growing because you know, the introvert in me keeps me shy away from social media. But don't you worry, it will be, it will be establishing itself soon. Um, until then you can find me listed on psychology today and therapy for black girls.
And I'm also here as one of the therapists at Nico Owens and associates counseling office here in Dearborn. You can find me here and I would be happy to meet you.
Nneka: Okay. All right. Well, thank you Thank you so much, Aiyana, for, uh, for just being a guest, for being a friend, for being a colleague, [00:33:00] for all those things, because, again, your presence is welcome, is needed in this space.
And so I am honored that we have had this opportunity. working relationship for as many years as we have, because it's nice when you can find people that you can trust. I come in this office and I feel good to see everybody that's here, right? So I said, Oh, yeah, that's here. So it's just like you need that, you know, when you're, you know, dealing when you're working with, um, varying, you know, concerns that people may have.
You know, granted that we love doing it. We were built to do this. It's nice to be able to, you know, from time to time, I gotta, I need some advice, you know, for myself. Right. It's nice to be able to do that. So thank you. Thank
Ayanna: you so much. So it is my pleasure to do anything that Nneka Owens asked me to do.
Nneka: And there's so [00:34:00] many more projects that we have coming up. I know this relationship, working relationship, friendship is so much more than What we can see. And that's why God still has us working together.
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