<b>Welcome to the On Point podcast. This</b>

<b>week, Rob Milosevic is</b>

<b>speaking to Craig Chandler.</b>

<b>He's a project manager of a job at St</b>

<b>Marylebone Church in</b>

<b>Marleybone for Sir Robert McAlpine.</b>

<b>A unique job for us, where we used gaming</b>

<b>designers to create an</b>

<b>interactive 3D environment.</b>

<b>Hi, Rod.</b>

<b>Hello, Craig. Good to see you.</b>

<b>Yeah, and you. Have you been? Long time?</b>

<b>Very good. It's nice to be back in this</b>

<b>building. Big memories.</b>

<b>Oh, it's fantastic.</b>

<b>Have you seen it since?</b>

<b>I've been back. I'm part of an ongoing</b>

<b>process that we're nearly</b>

<b>finished with the end of defects.</b>

<b>So this is the</b>

<b>culmination of the project, really.</b>

<b>And we're at that sort of point in the</b>

<b>project cycle where we're with 12 months</b>

<b>after finishing and they've they've</b>

<b>effectively the doors</b>

<b>have performed brilliantly.</b>

<b>There's been no issues and everybody that</b>

<b>comes through obviously that they are a</b>

<b>real centrepiece of the vestibules.</b>

<b>I think the Arctic's actually thinking</b>

<b>about now the colour schemes and</b>

<b>everything they've</b>

<b>got blended really well.</b>

<b>Absolutely.</b>

<b>It's quite an aesthetic,</b>

<b>a character architecture.</b>

<b>Yeah, I remember when they got us in and</b>

<b>we'd talked about all the different</b>

<b>design features, but now seeing seeing it</b>

<b>in its glory, that's really good.</b>

<b>I've got to say, that's the thing I</b>

<b>probably am without sounding too</b>

<b>pretentious about it.</b>

<b>I love the aesthetic of them, how</b>

<b>empathetic they are to the architecture,</b>

<b>to the history of the building.</b>

<b>It's just they just sit</b>

<b>brilliantly in the space.</b>

<b>It's always difficult, isn't it?</b>

<b>So when you especially an old building</b>

<b>like this, how old is it?</b>

<b>A hundred and over 150.</b>

<b>A hundred and fifty years old.</b>

<b>And then you sort of</b>

<b>bring in something modern.</b>

<b>But actually it blends really well.</b>

<b>Obviously function.</b>

<b>I mean, a few times and I've seen like</b>

<b>the children are coming into the church.</b>

<b>I mean, that's an amazing church.</b>

<b>I think at some point get some shots of</b>

<b>that because it's a real</b>

<b>centrepiece in London, I think.</b>

<b>Definitely.</b>

<b>They, I noticed on the doors that are in</b>

<b>here, they've actually, which I haven't</b>

<b>seen in a long time,</b>

<b>people being commending the project team.</b>

<b>Yeah, effectively that is it.</b>

<b>It's basically everybody that was on the</b>

<b>ground involved in the project.</b>

<b>Because obviously there's, I think what's</b>

<b>forgotten, a project</b>

<b>sort of done and wrapped up.</b>

<b>Yeah.</b>

<b>And you forget about all of those all of</b>

<b>those operatives and sort of</b>

<b>the staff that were involved.</b>

<b>And obviously you played a big part in</b>

<b>this because you were</b>

<b>the entrance to the church.</b>

<b>I remember working on this and the evil,</b>

<b>like the stairclays and stuff like that.</b>

<b>That's all been</b>

<b>refurbished now, isn't it?</b>

<b>Yeah, so effectively both festivals and</b>

<b>then the central</b>

<b>nadexes, they've been restored.</b>

<b>Trying to sort of be sympathetic, like I</b>

<b>said, to the architecture.</b>

<b>And yeah, the doors just sit nicely.</b>

<b>And I think there were</b>

<b>challenges along the way.</b>

<b>Things like sort of the undulations in</b>

<b>the finished floor</b>

<b>level, that type of thing.</b>

<b>I think your guys did</b>

<b>a fantastic job too.</b>

<b>Because you don't read it straight away.</b>

<b>No, you don't.</b>

<b>There's always got that curve thing and</b>

<b>then that's matched in.</b>

<b>And because of the automation that's gone</b>

<b>up there, because</b>

<b>they're a quite tall door.</b>

<b>They are, yeah.</b>

<b>Which is a challenging itself because of</b>

<b>all the sensors and</b>

<b>everything that work here.</b>

<b>But I remember what we did slightly</b>

<b>different to this and it was the first</b>

<b>time that we sort of tried it.</b>

<b>I know you've done</b>

<b>some stuff on point cloud.</b>

<b>But we scanned this area because</b>

<b>obviously there was nothing here.</b>

<b>And what we wanted to do was we used</b>

<b>Unreal Engine plus we</b>

<b>used Lidar and point cloud.</b>

<b>And we actually built this and we've got</b>

<b>scans of this built before it was built.</b>

<b>And so we had a robot that would come up</b>

<b>and we'd test the sensors.</b>

<b>And the reason we did that was because we</b>

<b>wanted the install team to have an</b>

<b>insight of what the art set wanted,</b>

<b>how it's going to fit into the space.</b>

<b>And also niggle out any, you know, find</b>

<b>out any problems as well</b>

<b>ahead of time, which we did.</b>

<b>So the first time we'd actually used it</b>

<b>as a piece to train</b>

<b>the opportunities before,</b>

<b>work out some design issues so we could</b>

<b>sort of collaborate</b>

<b>with our own design team,</b>

<b>you know, because they were working from</b>

<b>home or if we were in a</b>

<b>different part of the country.</b>

<b>We never actually got to try that because</b>

<b>it was quite fast</b>

<b>moving with your own team.</b>

<b>But I think going forward, we've tried it</b>

<b>since on other jobs and it works.</b>

<b>On the back of this project?</b>

<b>On the back of this project, yeah.</b>

<b>It was a first for us and certainly</b>

<b>something that we</b>

<b>would use going forward.</b>

<b>I think what's quite interesting is</b>

<b>obviously your open entrances involvement</b>

<b>is predated to Robert McAlpine's.</b>

<b>So I think you had that collaboration</b>

<b>period with Caro architecture to try and</b>

<b>sort of obviously design a scheme that</b>

<b>ticked all of the boxes,</b>

<b>I guess from an architectural from a</b>

<b>usability functionality.</b>

<b>I think that's the key, isn't it?</b>

<b>They are functional.</b>

<b>Yeah, I mean, I think even to the choice</b>

<b>of colors and materials, I mean, they</b>

<b>were very detailed and I've rightly so</b>

<b>because I just think it's it's it's</b>

<b>worked out really well.</b>

<b>I mean, that the even when we did going</b>

<b>back to that sort of the digital piece,</b>

<b>you know, we were actually be a model,</b>

<b>the bronze in the color.</b>

<b>So that we could share</b>

<b>that with our supply team.</b>

<b>So, you know, people that are doing the</b>

<b>manufacturing of the doors, even even to</b>

<b>the point of I mean, we had</b>

<b>some issues around handles.</b>

<b>So we could we made like 3D models off</b>

<b>the Lidar that we could then send out and</b>

<b>this is how it needs to be because of the</b>

<b>tolerances of glass.</b>

<b>It wasn't always exact, but that in the</b>

<b>end, we got we got that done quite well.</b>

<b>So, yeah, I mean, it was just a sort of</b>

<b>like a bit of a touchstone</b>

<b>for us because we went on.</b>

<b>We've we've started to</b>

<b>use it for solid inspection.</b>

<b>We started to use geospatials, drones, a</b>

<b>lot of Lidar and the share and</b>

<b>collaborate, I think, is, you know,</b>

<b>people are talking about</b>

<b>AI and machine learning.</b>

<b>The share and collaborate. Once you've</b>

<b>got those assets, I mean, you've you</b>

<b>think you've done a</b>

<b>big piece here as well.</b>

<b>Yeah, we did at the start of the project,</b>

<b>we did a point clouds, which which has</b>

<b>proved invaluable really from a defects</b>

<b>monitoring point of view,</b>

<b>just to sort of really see</b>

<b>the progress of the work.</b>

<b>So it's yeah, it's invaluable.</b>

<b>I think in sort of</b>

<b>modern modern construction.</b>

<b>Yeah, I think it's yeah,</b>

<b>it's coming to the fore.</b>

<b>It really is. Yes, if you're happy, let's</b>

<b>let's go and have a look at the church.</b>

<b>What else?</b>

<b>They've just finished.</b>

<b>Oh, yeah, they had a</b>

<b>beautiful piano tuner.</b>

<b>Yeah.</b>

<b>Yeah.</b>

<b>So I think they just finished the the</b>

<b>apps, the sort of the effectively this</b>

<b>concert, there was conservation work on</b>

<b>the panel there that</b>

<b>we weren't involved in.</b>

<b>And so effectively, our works stopped</b>

<b>with the plaster ceiling.</b>

<b>So in in April 22, there was a crack</b>

<b>appeared around sort of</b>

<b>one of the ceiling roses.</b>

<b>Right. And from there, that sort of kick started</b>

<b>a wholesale sort of scaffold, scaffolding</b>

<b>survey and then actually sort of</b>

<b>wholesale repairs the plaster ceiling.</b>

<b>So this is the end result, really.</b>

<b>So that whole I mean, this is a whole</b>

<b>whole different discussion, but I was</b>

<b>being much recent, but it's called</b>

<b>Simonatics and it's the</b>

<b>residents and you know,</b>

<b>even these sort of shapes like that were</b>

<b>under vibration of sound.</b>

<b>They create these sort of natural forming</b>

<b>patterns, which actually when you look at</b>

<b>churches and you look at temples all</b>

<b>around the world, they find these organic</b>

<b>patterns up here as a result of sound.</b>

<b>And it's like really</b>

<b>it's kind of fascinating.</b>

<b>I was like YouTube last night looking at</b>

<b>thinking, wow, it's like what?</b>

<b>I'm not saying that too much.</b>

<b>And yeah, this in terms of the church, it</b>

<b>used to have a second floor gallery.</b>

<b>Right.</b>

<b>Actually sort of it went either side, it</b>

<b>flanked either side of the the aisles.</b>

<b>And that was taken away.</b>

<b>I think structurally, it wasn't it</b>

<b>wouldn't conform to modern modern</b>

<b>regulations, that sort of thing.</b>

<b>So do you know much about that?</b>

<b>What would you like this to do?</b>

<b>So that's that's that's the app.</b>

<b>So effectively, our works stopped.</b>

<b>We worked externally, but our works sort</b>

<b>of stopped at that line.</b>

<b>It sort of it just didn't it</b>

<b>didn't form part of the remit.</b>

<b>All right.</b>

<b>Everything else that you see</b>

<b>is has been lovingly restored.</b>

<b>Yeah, well, beautiful.</b>

<b>Absolutely beautiful.</b>

<b>Is there is there a</b>

<b>quiet part of this church?</b>

<b>Well, we'll probably</b>

<b>need to find something.</b>

<b>It's quite a busy</b>

<b>quite a busy day for them.</b>

<b>So let's go downstairs.</b>

<b>Yeah.</b>

<b>Yeah.</b>

<b>Yeah.</b>

<b>Yeah.</b>

<b>Yeah.</b>

<b>Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.</b>

<b>Yeah.</b>

<b>Yeah. Yeah.</b>

<b>Yeah.</b>

<b>Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.</b>

<b>Yeah.</b>

<b>So the project finished in mid-December</b>

<b>at twenty twenty two.</b>

<b>So yeah, I think you finished</b>

<b>just before just before that.</b>

<b>So, yeah, it was a</b>

<b>fantastic project for all of us.</b>

<b>Yeah, no, it looks great.</b>

<b>And we've kept we've walked around and we</b>

<b>captured some good</b>

<b>shots and, you know, seen</b>

<b>it in all its glory.</b>

<b>But, you know, as we sort of come, you</b>

<b>know, this is obviously</b>

<b>an original meeting room</b>

<b>and stuff like that.</b>

<b>What kind of memories</b>

<b>do you have of the job?</b>

<b>And I found the fond memories of</b>

<b>obviously the sort of the work.</b>

<b>I think from from my side of things being</b>

<b>a construction project</b>

<b>manager, you look for</b>

<b>you look for challenging projects.</b>

<b>And this was certainly</b>

<b>certainly one of those.</b>

<b>I think I think our biggest challenge was</b>

<b>just keeping sort of the</b>

<b>the building operational,</b>

<b>which which we achieved.</b>

<b>There's there's the added sort of</b>

<b>challenge of the church has</b>

<b>got a it leases the basement</b>

<b>to the to the health center.</b>

<b>So it's an NHS health health center.</b>

<b>And at the time we started the project,</b>

<b>it was it was the height of covid.</b>

<b>So we had to sort of maintain only sort</b>

<b>of the church from a</b>

<b>spiritual point of view,</b>

<b>obviously sort of the the health center</b>

<b>and their sort of</b>

<b>their huge demand that was</b>

<b>placed on them.</b>

<b>So, yeah, that was that</b>

<b>was our biggest challenge.</b>

<b>So I didn't realize that.</b>

<b>Yeah, that was a thing.</b>

<b>So but I know they kept services.</b>

<b>Yeah.</b>

<b>Yeah.</b>

<b>Through the whole thing.</b>

<b>Yeah.</b>

<b>We had a we had a period.</b>

<b>It was an unforeseen.</b>

<b>There was an issue with the with the</b>

<b>plaster ceilings that</b>

<b>then evolved into sort of a</b>

<b>wholesale repair scheme with internal</b>

<b>scaffold, a bird, birdcave scaffold.</b>

<b>So that was the only sort of time when</b>

<b>the when the when the</b>

<b>church actually closed was</b>

<b>the the bringing in of scaffold materials</b>

<b>and then obviously</b>

<b>sort of removing beyond</b>

<b>that.</b>

<b>It was yeah, it was it was fully fully</b>

<b>operational throughout.</b>

<b>So and obviously you guys did play a big</b>

<b>a big part in that</b>

<b>because we had to sequence</b>

<b>your works to to sort of accommodate the</b>

<b>needs of the church.</b>

<b>I think I think it was a case of working</b>

<b>on the the West</b>

<b>Festival to allow then the</b>

<b>Central Nardex and East Festival to be</b>

<b>operational and then swapped around.</b>

<b>So yeah, it was a it</b>

<b>was a challenging project.</b>

<b>Is that is this a sort of</b>

<b>typical sort of look up on jungle?</b>

<b>No, it's not typical.</b>

<b>I think I think working with a an eminent</b>

<b>design team like we</b>

<b>like we did and working</b>

<b>on a challenging project, which we did.</b>

<b>I think that sort of</b>

<b>ticks a lot of a lot of boxes.</b>

<b>But I think I think if you ask anybody,</b>

<b>it's obviously we've got a</b>

<b>long history of of complex</b>

<b>engineering and we had we had that to a</b>

<b>degree, but it was just on</b>

<b>a much, much smaller scale.</b>

<b>So it was sort of it was a it was a micro</b>

<b>project of what</b>

<b>obviously what is SRO bread</b>

<b>and butter.</b>

<b>Yeah, yeah.</b>

<b>So because I know, yeah, you</b>

<b>do sort of big scale projects.</b>

<b>I think you just finished a big hospital.</b>

<b>Yeah, yes.</b>

<b>We've got obviously different</b>

<b>divisions within the company.</b>

<b>And also we have had health care, which</b>

<b>obviously in the last five</b>

<b>years is really sort of has</b>

<b>really sort of taken taken off.</b>

<b>So this this project came out of the</b>

<b>special projects division of SRM.</b>

<b>So we're dealing with sort of the the</b>

<b>historical or architectural sort of</b>

<b>significant buildings</b>

<b>in and around London.</b>

<b>So with the on point, the point is really</b>

<b>potential opportunity</b>

<b>impact needs effectively</b>

<b>and any transformation</b>

<b>that's needed in the in industry.</b>

<b>And obviously, as a top tier one</b>

<b>contractor, I imagine</b>

<b>you have real insights.</b>

<b>So where's the potential, I think, to</b>

<b>really change the industry as it is?</b>

<b>Well, I think this this project sort of</b>

<b>represents a really good</b>

<b>example of that, I think, where</b>

<b>you've got obviously that sort of drive</b>

<b>towards sort of costs and sustainability.</b>

<b>And actually sort of we</b>

<b>made it made it contemporary.</b>

<b>It's from a from an aesthetic point of</b>

<b>view as well as sort of a</b>

<b>usability point of view.</b>

<b>It's it's become sort of it's we I guess</b>

<b>we've sort of made it</b>

<b>current, whereas and maintained</b>

<b>that sort of that integrity of the</b>

<b>building really, which is great.</b>

<b>It's I think the purpose of this this</b>

<b>project was to remove it</b>

<b>from the risk register.</b>

<b>So we we looked at say I had</b>

<b>a new roof, but this or that.</b>

<b>So we dealt with the fundamentals, but</b>

<b>then also things like</b>

<b>making the building much more</b>

<b>sort of sustainable and making it so it's</b>

<b>it's cutting down on</b>

<b>costs and actually sort of</b>

<b>in the long term with things like your</b>

<b>your your your doors,</b>

<b>you know, sort of it that</b>

<b>being put into a seasonal mode, you know,</b>

<b>things that small</b>

<b>small changes like that.</b>

<b>So was there was the brief</b>

<b>sort of like sustainability?</b>

<b>Did you get to reuse any?</b>

<b>I think to be honest, that's probably</b>

<b>sort of a question you</b>

<b>could you could answer really,</b>

<b>because I think from this, like I said</b>

<b>earlier, I think your</b>

<b>your involvement predates us.</b>

<b>And I think you were part of that early</b>

<b>discussions with Caro</b>

<b>architecture, just in terms of what</b>

<b>that that remit looked like.</b>

<b>And obviously we took it we took it on</b>

<b>actually sort of the early the early</b>

<b>work, the groundwork</b>

<b>was done by by you guys.</b>

<b>Well, yeah, I mean, from from I mean, it</b>

<b>was great to work with</b>

<b>Caro and they had a vision</b>

<b>of trying to make it as robust but as</b>

<b>filigree as possible.</b>

<b>The use of the material so they blended</b>

<b>in trying to keep as you</b>

<b>say, you're you're working</b>

<b>with, you know, historic building, but at</b>

<b>the same time bringing, you know, we were</b>

<b>using bronzes and and a slim line as</b>

<b>possible, but to be</b>

<b>functional because a lot of a lot</b>

<b>of things we work on, you know,</b>

<b>architects can go, yeah,</b>

<b>and I want it to look look now</b>

<b>hands free.</b>

<b>But then it's got to work, you know,</b>

<b>there's an awful lot of</b>

<b>traffic that goes through.</b>

<b>And, you know, a year down the right down</b>

<b>the road, we haven't</b>

<b>had any call outs, which</b>

<b>is which is great.</b>

<b>Yeah, yeah, it's</b>

<b>testament to the to the product.</b>

<b>And I think their design and, you know,</b>

<b>like just, you know, we</b>

<b>worked together or the</b>

<b>teams work together because, you know,</b>

<b>you've got under your</b>

<b>lane floors, you've got, you</b>

<b>know, walls, there's curves.</b>

<b>So to put something in so you don't say</b>

<b>it doesn't look like</b>

<b>it's a it's a bolt on, it's</b>

<b>actually it's been thought about and it's</b>

<b>integrated well into an old building.</b>

<b>But in terms of, you know, is it did what</b>

<b>did sort of SRM find on</b>

<b>doing a job like this?</b>

<b>What was the would it</b>

<b>lead to a potential?</b>

<b>OK, we would do some some more of this.</b>

<b>Yeah, I think there's there's certainly a</b>

<b>lessons learned exercise.</b>

<b>I think we would do things slightly,</b>

<b>slightly differently.</b>

<b>You know, how we approached it.</b>

<b>It was it was set up in a really</b>

<b>challenging time, sort of social,</b>

<b>socially and obviously</b>

<b>sort of economically.</b>

<b>Yeah. So I think we we weren't able to</b>

<b>hit the ground running</b>

<b>as much as we as we liked,</b>

<b>I think our sort of our program from day</b>

<b>one was basically sort</b>

<b>of out of date because</b>

<b>of the impacts of sort</b>

<b>of in the in society.</b>

<b>But yeah, I think I think there's there's</b>

<b>certainly a drive,</b>

<b>particularly within SRM</b>

<b>special projects division.</b>

<b>We this is this is our bread and butter.</b>

<b>I mean, this is we were used to dealing</b>

<b>with the big projects,</b>

<b>but ultimately, like we're</b>

<b>it's still you apply the same principles</b>

<b>to any any sites, any sites, projects.</b>

<b>And that's effectively what we've done.</b>

<b>We think we've given a good service here</b>

<b>and they've got a</b>

<b>fantastic sort of building now.</b>

<b>Yeah. And opportunities wise, so</b>

<b>encouraging other sort</b>

<b>of smaller subcontracts.</b>

<b>I mean, it was lovely</b>

<b>to be sort of sighted.</b>

<b>You know, I could see a whole wall on the</b>

<b>glass of other</b>

<b>subcontracts and everyone who's</b>

<b>involved in the project, which I think</b>

<b>brings sort of like a</b>

<b>nice warm feeling that you've</b>

<b>been part of something.</b>

<b>But what opportunities can you see for</b>

<b>smaller subcontractors</b>

<b>working with us all like the</b>

<b>tier one by yourself?</b>

<b>Yeah, I think it's a challenge for for</b>

<b>all of the supply supply chain.</b>

<b>I think there's I think we've got a</b>

<b>trusted supply chain.</b>

<b>But I think sometimes sometimes</b>

<b>governance gets in the way</b>

<b>of actually and actually sort</b>

<b>of it. It prevents smaller sort of more</b>

<b>niche contractors</b>

<b>feeling that they can they can</b>

<b>work with a tier one. But actually, sort</b>

<b>of I think I think</b>

<b>hopefully what this product</b>

<b>this project does is just show that</b>

<b>actually a tier one</b>

<b>contractor can work quite effectively</b>

<b>with a whole range of a whole range of</b>

<b>subcontractors and suppliers.</b>

<b>Really, there's certainly opportunity.</b>

<b>It's just we need to overcome that sort</b>

<b>of that fear that a tier</b>

<b>one contractor is looking</b>

<b>to impose a whole host of</b>

<b>constraints and restrictions.</b>

<b>No, certainly wasn't with us.</b>

<b>No, we had a really good experience and</b>

<b>it was it was guided</b>

<b>well, you know, it felt</b>

<b>very light touch, but you felt like, OK,</b>

<b>you know, we were</b>

<b>learning ourselves in the way</b>

<b>that we were we were presenting</b>

<b>information and running a</b>

<b>project, you know, that we were</b>

<b>upskilling as well.</b>

<b>Yeah, ultimately, that</b>

<b>is the point, isn't it?</b>

<b>You're you guys are the the experts where</b>

<b>if we turn our job</b>

<b>properly, all we're there</b>

<b>to do is facilitate you and that sort of</b>

<b>that's what hopefully we did.</b>

<b>On impact and I'm talking about a global</b>

<b>and outside of this job,</b>

<b>you know, what are some</b>

<b>of the impacts that I mean, there's a lot</b>

<b>of geopolitics going on</b>

<b>and, you know, inflation</b>

<b>and stuff like that. But for building and</b>

<b>construction for and</b>

<b>with special projects,</b>

<b>I imagine that you are working with older</b>

<b>buildings and</b>

<b>certainly with us through the</b>

<b>G.A. brand, we're working on buildings</b>

<b>that are sort of 20, 25 years old.</b>

<b>What are some of the impacts that you're</b>

<b>seeing are, you know,</b>

<b>the are adding more risk or</b>

<b>adding more concern in dealing with that?</b>

<b>Good question. Can I have a yeah, yeah,</b>

<b>yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,</b>

<b>I didn't realise you would</b>

<b>challenge me like this in a</b>

<b>sort of challenge or challenges.</b>

<b>For instance, if I if I give it with with</b>

<b>what we do, some of the</b>

<b>challenges, you know, if you</b>

<b>work in the city and you need to change</b>

<b>glass or you need to do a big</b>

<b>refurbishment, the natural</b>

<b>thing is let's scaffold it all up. But</b>

<b>that's not business as</b>

<b>usual. So we're having to really</b>

<b>think about traffic management, working</b>

<b>with the councils so that</b>

<b>you only work. So you will not</b>

<b>only be able to work at weekends, for</b>

<b>instance, because we can</b>

<b>shut the roads down, but we only</b>

<b>get a weekend. So it's a small window. So</b>

<b>the programme goes out.</b>

<b>But you have to really work</b>

<b>your efficiency. And I just sort of shoot</b>

<b>it from here. But in in</b>

<b>when you're doing major</b>

<b>construction, so like bricks, bricks and</b>

<b>mortar and, you know, plastering and</b>

<b>things like that, do you</b>

<b>imagine you have similar challenges?</b>

<b>Yeah, I think I think stakeholders</b>

<b>generally, I think they all they all play</b>

<b>a part. And I think it's</b>

<b>very difficult to to keep everybody</b>

<b>happy. That's a real that's a real</b>

<b>challenge. And you're not</b>

<b>going to you're not going to please</b>

<b>everybody. I think I think for just</b>

<b>taking this project is a, as a</b>

<b>prime example, we, we had we had the</b>

<b>church and obviously sort of the</b>

<b>congregation of visitors to</b>

<b>think about we then also had patients</b>

<b>come into the surgery, we've</b>

<b>got a school that sits on the on</b>

<b>the south side, it's got it's got a busy</b>

<b>sort of a busy road at the front of it.</b>

<b>So you've got all of</b>

<b>those all of those challenges. And that's</b>

<b>that probably is</b>

<b>particularly working in central London,</b>

<b>I think logistics and keeping keeping the</b>

<b>peace amongst the chaos of central</b>

<b>London. I think that's</b>

<b>yeah, that's the real challenge.</b>

<b>Yeah, I mean, a good point. But how do</b>

<b>you manage that? How big a team do you</b>

<b>need for the comms and the</b>

<b>project management?</b>

<b>I think it's having the I think it's</b>

<b>having the right people that have have</b>

<b>the experience and sort of I</b>

<b>think that the confidence to to actually</b>

<b>sort of effectively manage these and we</b>

<b>have obviously sort of</b>

<b>you have management plans in place, but</b>

<b>it's actually sort of it's people that</b>

<b>are able to, to react day</b>

<b>to day and actually sort of see that</b>

<b>we're ultimately we're all problem</b>

<b>solvers. And I think it's just</b>

<b>about having the right the right teams</b>

<b>actually sort of picking picking the</b>

<b>right people for specific</b>

<b>projects. I think that's that's key. And</b>

<b>let's look at location, let's look at the</b>

<b>type of work. And then</b>

<b>sort of then deploy the</b>

<b>right people to manage it.</b>

<b>Is there something new? Is there a new</b>

<b>way of working that's making that easier?</b>

<b>Or?</b>

<b>I think, I think is in my in my 20 plus</b>

<b>years in the industry, I think the sort</b>

<b>of the type of people that are</b>

<b>coming into construction are different. I</b>

<b>come from a I come from a creative sort</b>

<b>of background. I did a sort</b>

<b>of an art degree. I think you've got</b>

<b>different types of people coming into</b>

<b>into the industry that are</b>

<b>actually sort of making making a</b>

<b>difference. It's sort of you you're</b>

<b>losing some of that sort of old</b>

<b>school, which there's there's not sort</b>

<b>of, it's not as they slant on people that</b>

<b>are born and bred into</b>

<b>the industry, but you've got sort of</b>

<b>people that have just got maybe a</b>

<b>different a different view on things</b>

<b>and a different way of approaching. I</b>

<b>think that's just helping. That's it's</b>

<b>just making the industry</b>

<b>much more rounded early.</b>

<b>Is that do you think</b>

<b>they're bringing more tech skills?</b>

<b>Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You've got sort</b>

<b>of look at yourselves, you know, you sort</b>

<b>of you bring in, you bring in</b>

<b>sort of that, that sort of that technical</b>

<b>side of things with sort of with the sort</b>

<b>of the the IT sort of the</b>

<b>point clouds and things like that. We're</b>

<b>talking about actually sort of your that</b>

<b>is making a real a real</b>

<b>difference to all of sort of</b>

<b>all of our lives on a project.</b>

<b>Yeah, I mean, I mean, certainly I've</b>

<b>seen, you know, people talk about digital</b>

<b>twin and there's, you know,</b>

<b>such a big, you know, people argue about</b>

<b>what is a digital twin, you know, is a</b>

<b>photograph of digital twin, or is</b>

<b>that a point cloud? Or is that, you know,</b>

<b>does it have to be interoperable? So</b>

<b>that's one area that I'm</b>

<b>fascinated in. And the more I spend on</b>

<b>it, and see the speed of expansion of</b>

<b>thought, I mean, within two</b>

<b>years, I mean, these things will be</b>

<b>everything will be checked out. There'll</b>

<b>be there'll be sensors. I mean, when</b>

<b>we've never employed it or deployed it,</b>

<b>but I actually bought a sensor for these</b>

<b>doors. Oh, really? Because of</b>

<b>because we built up the point cloud</b>

<b>model, that we could put sensor in that</b>

<b>would feed the point cloud. And it</b>

<b>would tell us how many times it went</b>

<b>through. It's like a nice sensor. For us.</b>

<b>So from a maintenance point of</b>

<b>view, if if if there was something in</b>

<b>place, they could re observe if there's</b>

<b>someone with a doors, we could plug</b>

<b>into the point cloud, look at what the</b>

<b>sensor was telling us and diagnose it</b>

<b>because 90% of the time, it is</b>

<b>literally just a reset. Okay. I mean, at</b>

<b>Christmas time, people say no, the doors</b>

<b>are not working. It's because</b>

<b>someone's put Christmas tree right by the</b>

<b>door and the lights are</b>

<b>just drawing the sensors mad.</b>

<b>So that is that data that's collected is</b>

<b>it? What happens to</b>

<b>that data? Where does that</b>

<b>it is just collected, so it becomes</b>

<b>useful information. I mean, we we set up</b>

<b>a whole division called films, which is</b>

<b>facade information management system,</b>

<b>which is a portal that collects data. So</b>

<b>when we're doing these point clouds,</b>

<b>walkthroughs or lidars, that you can tag</b>

<b>in own names, for instance, so we will do</b>

<b>do it on this one, where now it's</b>

<b>now it's all finished, we'll do a</b>

<b>walkthrough, maybe even using existing</b>

<b>point cloud, and then we can put what</b>

<b>materials, so visual O&M. So an engineer</b>

<b>turns up, and he'll have that on an iPad,</b>

<b>and they go, right, okay, what is this</b>

<b>motor what model, and it'll just be a</b>

<b>click the and it'll bring it up. So</b>

<b>there's no more looking</b>

<b>in folders, there's no</b>

<b>more, you know, even online folders,</b>

<b>somewhere in a system, you know, team</b>

<b>folder that no one's</b>

<b>updating, this will be</b>

<b>something that gets updated as a visual</b>

<b>on them. Anyone can look at it, me and</b>

<b>you could go and put up an iPad now</b>

<b>click it. And it will it will say, right,</b>

<b>this is what was used, this is when it</b>

<b>was last service. This is what the</b>

<b>sensors are saying. And I think that</b>

<b>that's the way that I think certainly</b>

<b>from maintenance,</b>

<b>because we do a lot with</b>

<b>facility management, it has to be just</b>

<b>for speech, you know, everyone's so</b>

<b>economics says that everyone has to be</b>

<b>efficient, and efficiency is</b>

<b>sustainability. Yeah. Because that's, you</b>

<b>know, like, if I could</b>

<b>resolve something online, I'm not</b>

<b>selling an engineer in a van, carbons and</b>

<b>all the rest of the carbonomics makes</b>

<b>makes sense. So you,</b>

<b>you know, like from a</b>

<b>company point of view, I know we talked</b>

<b>about sustainability, but is there a</b>

<b>drive for carbonomics</b>

<b>and how are SRM dealing</b>

<b>with? Yeah, I think sort of it's</b>

<b>interesting, actually, I'm just as you</b>

<b>were talking that I was</b>

<b>thinking about more and more</b>

<b>clients that I'm, I'm working with, and</b>

<b>obviously sort of in the wider sort of</b>

<b>company, I think sort of</b>

<b>having that granular level</b>

<b>detail is sort of it's becoming much</b>

<b>more, much more relevant, I think sort of</b>

<b>having, having easy access to</b>

<b>information, I've just</b>

<b>funny enough for this project, I've one</b>

<b>of my one of sort of the starboard my</b>

<b>colleagues and put</b>

<b>together the O&M and I think it's</b>

<b>sort of totaled, 20 odd, lever arch</b>

<b>files, you know, nobody wants that you</b>

<b>want sort of you want, you want the sort</b>

<b>of extensive amount of</b>

<b>information, but you want it sort of the</b>

<b>touch of a button, it's just that's the</b>

<b>way that the world is going. And I think</b>

<b>it goes back to sort of</b>

<b>that, that earlier, earlier point that</b>

<b>the people coming into the industry, the</b>

<b>people that are much more sort of tech</b>

<b>savvy than others, they</b>

<b>bring that dimension actually, and that's</b>

<b>only gonna evolve and</b>

<b>improve. I think that's fantastic.</b>

<b>Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, what are</b>

<b>the things we're all facing, XR,</b>

<b>augmented reality, you know, virtual,</b>

<b>digital twin, I mean, it's just</b>

<b>becoming, you know, like, even 18 months</b>

<b>ago, it was, you know, people think, Oh,</b>

<b>no, no, that's, it's almost. But now, you</b>

<b>know, if we had, you know,</b>

<b>glasses or using age, we would know what</b>

<b>that paint color is, we'd know where that</b>

<b>would source for. And I think that's,</b>

<b>we've done that on a research</b>

<b>job we did at the skate, where we've</b>

<b>loaded everything in, because, you know,</b>

<b>things get scratched. So let's say for</b>

<b>instance, those bronze got damaged, you'd</b>

<b>want to know exactly what that</b>

<b>color was, rather than hunting down</b>

<b>through your 15 folders. Yeah. So, and it</b>

<b>allows you if it was something that had</b>

<b>to be an emergency change, and we</b>

<b>couldn't get there, you could just say,</b>

<b>Oh, no, that glass is, and I know where</b>

<b>it came from, I could just repeat. So I</b>

<b>think that's the, that's the thing from</b>

<b>facilities and a sort of sustainable</b>

<b>piece, it's a small piece. But I think</b>

<b>that really helps going forward.</b>

<b>But I don't know, I don't know about you, I just remember going to a lecture 15 years ago, and they were talking, they presented something on, on BIM. And I just sort of at the time, I remember being sort of thinking of it, being such a skeptic about it, that it's a fad, and it's not going to last, you know, sort of, nothing can replace sort of a paper and pen drawing, you know, it's just things like that. It's just in my short time, and I count 20 years as being sort of not an awful lot of time in the</b>

<b>industry. And I've seen that sort of that</b>

<b>change, and it's positive.</b>

<b>I mean, you can't be a nice bit of red</b>

<b>pen through the thing. But yeah, no</b>

<b>technology, I think if we zoom out, and</b>

<b>certainly people I spoke to that sort of</b>

<b>like, you know, playing a big, big field,</b>

<b>when you zoom out, what's what technology</b>

<b>holds, I mean, buildings are going to be</b>

<b>looking after themselves.</b>

<b>Oh, it's, yeah, it's frightening, but</b>

<b>obviously in a good way.</b>

<b>Yeah. And it's not that it's going to</b>

<b>make people, I think that's the big thing</b>

<b>that everyone's saying, oh, AI and</b>

<b>machine learning is going to put us all</b>

<b>out of business. I don't think it has,</b>

<b>I've said it so many times before. It's</b>

<b>like, AI doesn't have a point, you know,</b>

<b>whereas we have a point, we can look at</b>

<b>these things and have a real view of</b>

<b>exactly what's happening, and we can be</b>

<b>tactile with it, and we</b>

<b>can make some decisions.</b>

<b>So I think it's working in like a copilot</b>

<b>working in partnership with AI.</b>

<b>And what we hopefully will have is</b>

<b>actually sort of a better record and</b>

<b>better understanding of sort of build,</b>

<b>particularly heritage buildings, that</b>

<b>you're going to have sort of, it's going</b>

<b>to have a backstory. And that's why we</b>

<b>came into this into this project without</b>

<b>sort of any real records, obviously, sort</b>

<b>of, we know we can date when it was, we</b>

<b>can date when it was built and various</b>

<b>sort of milestones</b>

<b>sort of in its history.</b>

<b>But obviously, we didn't have like a</b>

<b>services drawing and things like that,</b>

<b>things that actually sort of now it's</b>

<b>just part and parcel of</b>

<b>sort of the information.</b>

<b>You've got a whole team that's now doing</b>

<b>this sort of digital transformation.</b>

<b>Yeah, it's such an important part of the</b>

<b>business and obviously sort of</b>

<b>construction generally, yeah, there is a</b>

<b>dedicated sort of workforce.</b>

<b>Yeah, okay. Yeah, I'd be interested to</b>

<b>see what they're doing.</b>

<b>So if you're king for a day, what's the</b>

<b>transformation that you want to bring</b>

<b>into the world with</b>

<b>with what we do, I suppose?</b>

<b>I think it's where it's heading to. I</b>

<b>like, I love the idea of the work that</b>

<b>you've done here, you know, like sort of</b>

<b>integrating that sort of digital side</b>

<b>with and actually sort of producing</b>

<b>something physical</b>

<b>that's right for the setting.</b>

<b>I like that. And I like where it's going.</b>

<b>I'm just sort of excited in terms of</b>

<b>where that's heading really.</b>

<b>I mean, are you sort of upskilling? Do</b>

<b>you find some pressure to go, like I need</b>

<b>to learn about blockchain?</b>

<b>Yeah, I think you can never sit still.</b>

<b>And I like to think that I sort of, I</b>

<b>upskill and I think a lot of my growth</b>

<b>has been through experience more than</b>

<b>anything and actually sort of learning,</b>

<b>sort of taking the best and worst parts</b>

<b>of each project and then sort of</b>

<b>developing from there.</b>

<b>Actually, it's getting to that point</b>

<b>where we all need to be conscious of</b>

<b>upskilling really. And</b>

<b>yeah, so I'm going to have to.</b>

<b>So any any further thoughts or</b>

<b>transformational ideas that spring to</b>

<b>mind from our chat today?</b>

<b>I'm really intrigued in terms of that,</b>

<b>that digital side of things and why you</b>

<b>chose the digital elements of and</b>

<b>bringing that into the project here.</b>

<b>I think that's I think it's I think it's</b>

<b>unique. It's not something I've been</b>

<b>involved with before and actually, so</b>

<b>yeah, it's it's good to hear your.</b>

<b>Yeah, it's good. Yeah, it's a good</b>

<b>question. I mean, it was something that</b>

<b>we were already thinking about how we get</b>

<b>involved in the</b>

<b>transformational piece around O&Ms.</b>

<b>And so it started with almost what's the</b>

<b>end end end goal? And I thought, OK,</b>

<b>well, if we're going to we'd already</b>

<b>started working with a</b>

<b>company in Sweden called Winnioat.</b>

<b>And they were saying, OK, well, when you</b>

<b>were on your next job, why don't you</b>

<b>think about actually using technology and</b>

<b>really embedding it in?</b>

<b>And this was almost that first next job.</b>

<b>It was a little bit early, but I thought,</b>

<b>well, let's throw it in.</b>

<b>So we normally would come out and we</b>

<b>would just survey the piece and then</b>

<b>everything would be, you</b>

<b>know, DWGs and CAD files.</b>

<b>But we we used a LiDAR on a point cloud</b>

<b>and then a walkthrough.</b>

<b>So with that, we could revisit it and</b>

<b>measure off it quite accurately.</b>

<b>So actually, when we drew it, we could</b>

<b>actually then put it in the space.</b>

<b>So the designer used the without even</b>

<b>coming to, you know, and this would</b>

<b>normally take five, six visits of someone</b>

<b>coming in, checking it because of the</b>

<b>curvatures, because of the undulations</b>

<b>and the height of the screens.</b>

<b>So because there's three screens, two</b>

<b>were sliding and two were.</b>

<b>Because I remember that being quite an</b>

<b>easy sort of process.</b>

<b>We looked</b>

<b>straightforward enough in the sense of.</b>

<b>Well, when we came to site, it was quite</b>

<b>easy because it had been back tested.</b>

<b>So what what that gave us and what we</b>

<b>wanted to achieve was once it was</b>

<b>designed is to with our own fabricators</b>

<b>and with our own installers to say, OK,</b>

<b>this is what we're going to do.</b>

<b>We don't want to spend</b>

<b>days there scribing stuff in.</b>

<b>We want to be able to go in and fit it</b>

<b>and actually work out all the problems</b>

<b>because there was structural problems and</b>

<b>the way that it was bolted and welded.</b>

<b>And obviously it's covered in a beautiful</b>

<b>bronze finish, but you don't want to see</b>

<b>all the gubbins behind it.</b>

<b>And at the same time, we do want to sort</b>

<b>of like really drill into</b>

<b>the structure unnecessarily.</b>

<b>So we wanted to keep the fabric of the</b>

<b>building as intact as possible.</b>

<b>So you guys didn't have</b>

<b>too much finishing work.</b>

<b>Yes.</b>

<b>So we employed that and then we went to</b>

<b>another layer where we said, OK, well,</b>

<b>let's use gaming technology and we use</b>

<b>done real engine to actually put a robot.</b>

<b>So you could go in and out of the doors,</b>

<b>work out the sensors so that, you know,</b>

<b>when we spoke to the people who were who</b>

<b>were B.A. on the sensors and Tormax as</b>

<b>well on the on the equipment that they</b>

<b>could get a flavor of what</b>

<b>we were trying to achieve.</b>

<b>Because I think that's there's nothing</b>

<b>better than the whole team saying, OK,</b>

<b>this is what we want to do.</b>

<b>It needs to be a quality finish.</b>

<b>It needs to look right first time.</b>

<b>And, you know, it's none of this sort of</b>

<b>like thinking on the side and cutting and</b>

<b>carving that often goes on and they sort</b>

<b>of bespoke projects.</b>

<b>So and that was working really well.</b>

<b>And then after that, we thought, OK.</b>

<b>Once it's in that if ever gets</b>

<b>maintained, as long as</b>

<b>says, well, what's behind that?</b>

<b>You don't have to take it all apart.</b>

<b>You've got the drawings and they're all</b>

<b>built into a sort of a nice scan model.</b>

<b>So that was the driver for that.</b>

<b>And that, you know, all the guys that</b>

<b>were involved from our point of view said</b>

<b>it was really useful, you know, because</b>

<b>it's it's you're almost getting a 3D</b>

<b>pictorial set of</b>

<b>drawings by seeing in action.</b>

<b>And and and there's no miscommunication,</b>

<b>no misrepresentation of what you think.</b>

<b>You know, even though the guys are</b>

<b>skilled, they don't</b>

<b>want to be thinking about.</b>

<b>Making onsite decisions that maybe the</b>

<b>architects spent, you know, months.</b>

<b>Yes, that's like tweaked by them.</b>

<b>Yeah, that's right.</b>

<b>You know, over too much silicon, you</b>

<b>know, can really spoil something.</b>

<b>So that that's what helped us is what we</b>

<b>got from the technology is actually being</b>

<b>out to see it, making it work and then</b>

<b>sharing it and collaborating with the</b>

<b>guys even before they got to site.</b>

<b>And then when it was installed, you know,</b>

<b>when I look at what's finished and when I</b>

<b>look at that original model and how the</b>

<b>team were, we have people in Sweden and</b>

<b>Holland who working on this and our own</b>

<b>guys and how very similar it looks.</b>

<b>So, you know, we share some of this</b>

<b>information, you'll see you'll see that</b>

<b>it's very, very similar.</b>

<b>And the little robot gaming</b>

<b>thing was was part of that.</b>

<b>I mean, it looks like it was because the</b>

<b>the robot can actually that's in the</b>

<b>game, you can spin around</b>

<b>and look at different angles.</b>

<b>There was a few things that it</b>

<b>highlighted that we would like, for</b>

<b>instance, the sensor when the doors open,</b>

<b>if we had locked the doors,</b>

<b>for instance, you would clash.</b>

<b>So it was it was a risk. So it's picking</b>

<b>out things like that and being able to do</b>

<b>stuff after well after the you know, like</b>

<b>you've done the point cloud.</b>

<b>So you reference it now. Yeah. I mean, we</b>

<b>use other technology we use, map or use</b>

<b>open space, open space, which we didn't</b>

<b>use on this, which is shame,</b>

<b>which is the before and after.</b>

<b>So you can roll back time and</b>

<b>see. Yeah. So we've done that.</b>

<b>But I mean, what at the time was quite</b>

<b>cutting edge. It allowed us to</b>

<b>collaborate offsite.</b>

<b>It allowed it to be</b>

<b>shared with a lot of the team.</b>

<b>And we certainly were doing that a lot</b>

<b>more now. So it was just all like</b>

<b>touchstone for us to do that. Fantastic.</b>

<b>Great. Thank you, Craig. No,</b>

<b>really good to see you again.</b>

<b>And talk about the project and yeah, look</b>

<b>forward to working on</b>

<b>this one. Absolutely.</b>

<b>Thank you.</b>