INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where

INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child protection

INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation.

INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection

INTRO: and share good practice on how we can all work

INTRO: together to keep babies, children and young

INTRO: people safe.

PRODUCER: Welcome to the NSPCC learning Podcast.

PRODUCER: This episode of the podcast, recorded in January

PRODUCER: 2024, is all about pre-birth assessments.

PRODUCER: Assessments help health professionals to

PRODUCER: identify strengths, needs, risks

PRODUCER: and protective factors in the lives of expectant

PRODUCER: families.

PRODUCER: You'll hear from Sophie Bell, the associate head

PRODUCER: of development at the NSPCC, in conversation

PRODUCER: with Anna Squirrel and Nina Bell, social work

PRODUCER: professionals working in Blackburn with Darwen.

PRODUCER: The panel will be discussing what good pre-birth

PRODUCER: assessments look like, what social workers need

PRODUCER: to think about when conducting a pre-birth

PRODUCER: assessment, and how the NSPCC's pre-birth

PRODUCER: assessment tool, Graded Care Profile 2

PRODUCER: Antenatal, can be used to support expectant

PRODUCER: parents.

SOPHIE BELL: I'm Sophie Bell. I'm the associate head of

SOPHIE BELL: development at the NSPCC, and I'm

SOPHIE BELL: responsible for our early years portfolio,

SOPHIE BELL: which includes the Graded Care Antenatal

SOPHIE BELL: assessment.

SOPHIE BELL: And thank you, Anna and Nina, for joining us

SOPHIE BELL: today. Anna, can I hand over to you to

SOPHIE BELL: introduce yourself?

ANNA SQUIRRELL: Yeah. Hi, I'm Anna Squirrell, I'm the team

ANNA SQUIRRELL: leader in the pre-birth team in Blackburn

ANNA SQUIRRELL: with Darwen.

SOPHIE BELL: Nina.

NINA BELL: Hi. I'm Nina Bell, advanced practitioner here

NINA BELL: at safeguarding support team at Blackburn with

NINA BELL: Darwen.

SOPHIE BELL: Brilliant. Thank you both very, very much for

SOPHIE BELL: joining us today.

SOPHIE BELL: So, we're here to talk about pre-birth

SOPHIE BELL: assessments. So the first thing we're going

SOPHIE BELL: to talk about is: what is a pre-birth

SOPHIE BELL: assessment?

NINA BELL: So the pre-birth assessment is like any child

NINA BELL: and family assessment. We're looking at

NINA BELL: strengths. We're looking at risk.

NINA BELL: and within that assessment I split up to

NINA BELL: different parts.

NINA BELL: So we look at the unborn baby, health,

NINA BELL: development. We look at environmental factors

NINA BELL: and what that family's history is.

NINA BELL: And we also look at identifying the risks

NINA BELL: and what's going on for parents.

SOPHIE BELL: And in what types of situations might a

SOPHIE BELL: pre-birth assessment be needed?

NINA BELL: It can be many situations.

NINA BELL: It may be that siblings of the

NINA BELL: unborn baby are already open to us.

NINA BELL: So we would consider the unborn baby in that

NINA BELL: family assessment.

NINA BELL: Equally, we may have parents who have sadly

NINA BELL: had children removed previously.

NINA BELL: When they do become pregnant, referrals are

NINA BELL: then completed by midwifery confirming

NINA BELL: the pregnancy and need for a pre-birth

NINA BELL: assessment. There also could be many

NINA BELL: difficulties, parents and families that can

NINA BELL: equally self-refer to us as a service,

NINA BELL: for additional support as well.

SOPHIE BELL: And just as an additional question: at what

SOPHIE BELL: time frames do you do pre-birth assessments?

SOPHIE BELL: What time frame within the pregnancy would

SOPHIE BELL: you do a pre-birth assessment?

SOPHIE BELL: Does it vary, or is there a particular set

SOPHIE BELL: time frame.

NINA BELL: That's certainly changed over the last few

NINA BELL: years. We used to have to wait until the

NINA BELL: pregnancy was confirmed at least at week 12.

NINA BELL: However, we are working as soon as we,

NINA BELL: you know, the booking an appointment has been

NINA BELL: completed, and that allows additional

NINA BELL: relationship building.

NINA BELL: It allows for work to start sooner and

NINA BELL: certainly when we're using the Graded Care

NINA BELL: Profile, as soon as we start and use that tool,

NINA BELL: we're able to review that as part, you know,

NINA BELL: throughout the pregnancy as well.

NINA BELL: So, we've got that time to do that intervention

NINA BELL: with families.

SOPHIE BELL: Because I think — I know we can we're going

SOPHIE BELL: to come on to talking about challenges later

SOPHIE BELL: on — but I think one of the key challenges

SOPHIE BELL: that we faced for a long, long time is that,

SOPHIE BELL: because pregnancy is such a time-limited

SOPHIE BELL: period, how do we get that intervention

SOPHIE BELL: done? So assessments themselves take time

SOPHIE BELL: because you identified the need to build

SOPHIE BELL: relationships with people.

SOPHIE BELL: And that's really important.

SOPHIE BELL: And then by the time that assessment is

SOPHIE BELL: completed, there's often very little time

SOPHIE BELL: left to do that intervention and get the

SOPHIE BELL: parents in the right place, isn't there, for

SOPHIE BELL: the baby to have the best start in life.

SOPHIE BELL: So that's really great to hear that things

SOPHIE BELL: are starting earlier now, to allow that

SOPHIE BELL: additional time.

NINA BELL: And just to add to that, Sophie, I know,

NINA BELL: as part Blackburn with Darwen and the born into

NINA BELL: care research, a big part of that

NINA BELL: is for parents to understand what their child's

NINA BELL: plans are going to be by at least week 30.

NINA BELL: Pregnancy is stressful enough as it already is,

NINA BELL: and not knowing what the outcome is going to

NINA BELL: be, it's extremely traumatic

NINA BELL: and stressful.

NINA BELL: So the sooner parents are able to know what

NINA BELL: that outcome of that assessment is going to be,

NINA BELL: the sooner the better.

SOPHIE BELL: Absolutely. And if they don't know the

SOPHIE BELL: outcome and they're left with that unknown

SOPHIE BELL: and that stress, actually that can just add

SOPHIE BELL: to a parent's level of difficulty in terms

SOPHIE BELL: of thinking about how overloaded they feel.

SOPHIE BELL: And we know that parents who are overloaded

SOPHIE BELL: struggle more emotionally to connect with

SOPHIE BELL: their children. And even thinking about

SOPHIE BELL: bonding before birth and that bond with their

SOPHIE BELL: unborn baby, that actually, if they don't

SOPHIE BELL: know the outcome and the plan for the baby,

SOPHIE BELL: it's much more difficult for them to bond

SOPHIE BELL: with that baby.

SOPHIE BELL: What types of risks and protective factors do

SOPHIE BELL: you need to think about when conducting a

SOPHIE BELL: pre-birth assessment?

ANNA SQUIRRELL: Okay, so the protective factors we're

ANNA SQUIRRELL: looking for is what family support

ANNA SQUIRRELL: they have from the extended family,

ANNA SQUIRRELL: friends and network around them.

ANNA SQUIRRELL: We try and make sure that every family

ANNA SQUIRRELL: that is referred to us they have a family

ANNA SQUIRRELL: group conference, where all the family to

ANNA SQUIRRELL: sit around and we all try and decide what

ANNA SQUIRRELL: support they can offer for the family.

ANNA SQUIRRELL: We ask if the pregnancy is planned.

ANNA SQUIRRELL: Through the work that we do, we observe if

ANNA SQUIRRELL: the parents are showing that attachment to

ANNA SQUIRRELL: their unborn baby.

ANNA SQUIRRELL: We also complete the ACE inquiry, which is

ANNA SQUIRRELL: the adverse childhood inquiry, early on in

ANNA SQUIRRELL: our involvement and support parents to

ANNA SQUIRRELL: access counselling for any trauma that

ANNA SQUIRRELL: they've experienced in their own childhood,

ANNA SQUIRRELL: which is really important.

ANNA SQUIRRELL: And the risk factors include substance

ANNA SQUIRRELL: misuse, Mental health that's not being

ANNA SQUIRRELL: managed, domestic abuse between parents

ANNA SQUIRRELL: and ongoing parental conflict, and also

ANNA SQUIRRELL: parents who have been previously separated

ANNA SQUIRRELL: from the children and have been through

ANNA SQUIRRELL: the court proceedings. They're really our

ANNA SQUIRRELL: risk factors that we are looking for.

SOPHIE BELL: You touched upon the impact of trauma there

SOPHIE BELL: Anna, and I think we know that lots of

SOPHIE BELL: families come to the attention of services

SOPHIE BELL: because of their previous childhood trauma,

SOPHIE BELL: because of their previous trauma that

SOPHIE BELL: sometimes occurred in adulthood as well.

ANNA SQUIRRELL: Yeah.

SOPHIE BELL: And actually pregnancy is a real opportune

SOPHIE BELL: time for them to be able to engage in some

SOPHIE BELL: interventions, isn't it, because it's before

SOPHIE BELL: the baby's here and present and has those

SOPHIE BELL: quite demanding physical needs of looking

SOPHIE BELL: after a baby? That's very intensive, and

SOPHIE BELL: parents are often so tired that are they in a

SOPHIE BELL: position to really engage in some

SOPHIE BELL: therapeutic counselling that might be needed

SOPHIE BELL: for that trauma. So, actually thinking about

SOPHIE BELL: that during pregnancy is such a strength,

SOPHIE BELL: isn't it, to be able to to offer those

SOPHIE BELL: parents that chance to overcome some of those

SOPHIE BELL: issues that may or may not impact on their

SOPHIE BELL: ability to be the best parent to their baby.

SOPHIE BELL: And thinking about some of the

SOPHIE BELL: risk factors: are you able

SOPHIE BELL: to signpost on to interventions through

SOPHIE BELL: recognising those risk factors?

ANNA SQUIRRELL: Yeah. We've got a really good relationship

ANNA SQUIRRELL: with our colleagues and we've got

ANNA SQUIRRELL: services like the Wish Centre that we can

ANNA SQUIRRELL: refer families on to if we're concerned

ANNA SQUIRRELL: regarding domestic abuse.

ANNA SQUIRRELL: We've got the Caring Dads programme, which

ANNA SQUIRRELL: is a brilliant programme for dads where

ANNA SQUIRRELL: there has been domestic abuse that they

ANNA SQUIRRELL: can be referred onto.

ANNA SQUIRRELL: And we've got really good relationships

ANNA SQUIRRELL: with our mental health services, to

ANNA SQUIRRELL: support families accessing that help that

ANNA SQUIRRELL: they need at the earliest opportunity.

ANNA SQUIRRELL: And we work alongside perinatal as well.

ANNA SQUIRRELL: So we support, you know, with parents

ANNA SQUIRRELL: getting that early help at the right time

ANNA SQUIRRELL: for them through the pregnancy.

SOPHIE BELL: And domestic abuse is something that very

SOPHIE BELL: often begins during pregnancy.

SOPHIE BELL: So, actually, going back to that relationship

SOPHIE BELL: building that we talked about earlier, it's

SOPHIE BELL: such a difficult thing to disclose because

SOPHIE BELL: it's such a huge safety issue and there's

SOPHIE BELL: so much stigma around, people experiencing

SOPHIE BELL: domestic abuse that to be able to recognise

SOPHIE BELL: it and have people talk to us as

SOPHIE BELL: professionals about "this is something I'm

SOPHIE BELL: experiencing in my relationship", is such a

SOPHIE BELL: strength as well for you to then have

SOPHIE BELL: services that you can signpost on to.

SOPHIE BELL: Because we know that all children who

SOPHIE BELL: experience domestic abuse, regardless of

SOPHIE BELL: their age, are impacted by it.

SOPHIE BELL: And thinking about during pregnancy, the

SOPHIE BELL: impact of living with domestic abuse as the

SOPHIE BELL: physical risk, if some of the

SOPHIE BELL: physical domestic abuse is targeted at the

SOPHIE BELL: abdomen area, but also just the stress of

SOPHIE BELL: living with domestic abuse for the expectant

SOPHIE BELL: parent and the changes in the cortisol levels

SOPHIE BELL: that that baby would then directly

SOPHIE BELL: experience, is quite significant as well.

SOPHIE BELL: What challenges can present themselves when

SOPHIE BELL: conducting a pre-birth assessment?

ANNA SQUIRRELL: Well, myself and Nina were just talking

ANNA SQUIRRELL: about this earlier. And we were saying

ANNA SQUIRRELL: we're really lucky in Blackburn with

ANNA SQUIRRELL: Darwen that we rarely have parents who

ANNA SQUIRRELL: don't consent to the offer offered by our

ANNA SQUIRRELL: specialist team.

ANNA SQUIRRELL: However, if parents have been previously

ANNA SQUIRRELL: open themselves as a child, maybe to

ANNA SQUIRRELL: children's social care, or they've been

ANNA SQUIRRELL: through proceedings themselves, then they

ANNA SQUIRRELL: can often be apprehensive about working

ANNA SQUIRRELL: with children's social care again.

ANNA SQUIRRELL: But in Blackburn with Darwen we're working

ANNA SQUIRRELL: in a systemic way. So, we very much build

ANNA SQUIRRELL: on our relationships with our families,

ANNA SQUIRRELL: which is around trust and transparency and

ANNA SQUIRRELL: good communication. And like Nina said

ANNA SQUIRRELL: earlier, we want to make sure that parents

ANNA SQUIRRELL: are fully informed of the plan the whole

ANNA SQUIRRELL: way through. And that's what we like about

ANNA SQUIRRELL: the Graded Care, because while we're doing

ANNA SQUIRRELL: it, we're doing it alongside parents.

ANNA SQUIRRELL: We're not doing it to them, we're doing it

ANNA SQUIRRELL: with them. And we're looking all the way

ANNA SQUIRRELL: through that it's a strength based tool.

ANNA SQUIRRELL: We want to help. You want to know where

ANNA SQUIRRELL: you need that help and where your

ANNA SQUIRRELL: strengths are, and if there are any areas

ANNA SQUIRRELL: where you need that specific help, we can

ANNA SQUIRRELL: get that help for you in the right time

ANNA SQUIRRELL: and review it and see the progress that

ANNA SQUIRRELL: you've made.

SOPHIE BELL: So Graded Care Antenatal, or GCP2A

SOPHIE BELL: as we call it for short, is a tool designed

SOPHIE BELL: to help professionals working with expectant

SOPHIE BELL: parents to identify areas of strength and

SOPHIE BELL: areas where they may benefit from support

SOPHIE BELL: within their assessments.

SOPHIE BELL: The tool's split into three different

SOPHIE BELL: sections, so sections one and two focus on

SOPHIE BELL: the antenatal period, while section three

SOPHIE BELL: looks at the early postnatal period; so from

SOPHIE BELL: birth up to three months old.

SOPHIE BELL: Section one is designed to be used at the

SOPHIE BELL: earliest point in pregnancy when the

SOPHIE BELL: expectant parent comes into contact with

SOPHIE BELL: services, but it can be completed later on if

SOPHIE BELL: concerns don't arise until further down the

SOPHIE BELL: line. Section two is completed when

SOPHIE BELL: the areas of vulnerability or concern have

SOPHIE BELL: been identified in section one.

SOPHIE BELL: The tool includes areas of known risks that

SOPHIE BELL: are linked to safeguarding concerns in

SOPHIE BELL: babies, so it will help professionals to

SOPHIE BELL: build a picture to identify where concerns

SOPHIE BELL: emerge in relation to the impact on the

SOPHIE BELL: developing baby.

SOPHIE BELL: And it can also be used as an indicator for

SOPHIE BELL: potential safeguarding concerns after birth

SOPHIE BELL: within section three.

SOPHIE BELL: Each of the three sections uses a grading

SOPHIE BELL: scale of one to five, where one

SOPHIE BELL: indicates no concerns and five indicates high

SOPHIE BELL: concerns.

SOPHIE BELL: So, how can GCP2A help when conducting

SOPHIE BELL: a pre-birth assessment?

NINA BELL: So I know, particularly with the Graded Care

NINA BELL: Profile, one thing that we have missed for a

NINA BELL: long time is tools to assist us

NINA BELL: in looking at identifying strengths, risks

NINA BELL: and doing that work with families.

NINA BELL: So, particularly visual tools as well, for

NINA BELL: families that may have cognitive issues,

NINA BELL: may struggle with reading and writing.

NINA BELL: So the Graded Care Profile Antenatal tool

NINA BELL: really assists a lot of professionals

NINA BELL: in working with families to understand what

NINA BELL: we're concerned about.

ANNA SQUIRRELL: The Graded Care Profile gives us a perfect

ANNA SQUIRRELL: opportunity to look at the strengths that

ANNA SQUIRRELL: the family have and their network a

ANNA SQUIRRELL: support around them, in preparation for

ANNA SQUIRRELL: the birth of the baby.

ANNA SQUIRRELL: The Graded Care can give evidence of the

ANNA SQUIRRELL: current situation for the family.

ANNA SQUIRRELL: It considers the history, but will look at

ANNA SQUIRRELL: what's happening here and now for them.

ANNA SQUIRRELL: For example, are they in a new relationship?

ANNA SQUIRRELL: Maturity and the support network around

ANNA SQUIRRELL: them. Have they had support for substance

ANNA SQUIRRELL: misuse? And through the Graded Care we can

ANNA SQUIRRELL: evidence that, what's happening now with

ANNA SQUIRRELL: the family, and we can also look at the

ANNA SQUIRRELL: risks present in the pregnancy, which

ANNA SQUIRRELL: helps us make early decisions for the

ANNA SQUIRRELL: unborn baby if the risks are not being

ANNA SQUIRRELL: addressed for parents throughout that

ANNA SQUIRRELL: assessment. So it informs that early

ANNA SQUIRRELL: decision making for us as well.

NINA BELL: I just want to add, in terms of — particularly

NINA BELL: with the Graded Care Profile Antenatal — I

NINA BELL: like the way we're able to really focus on the

NINA BELL: family strengths and that family support and

NINA BELL: wider support network, because I think,

NINA BELL: particularly for a lot of our families, sadly,

NINA BELL: some parents are very isolated and do have

NINA BELL: very limited support networks.

NINA BELL: And if we can identify that as early as

NINA BELL: possible as part of relationship building,

NINA BELL: really supporting parents to access the

NINA BELL: community, and build those

NINA BELL: relationships within children's centres and

NINA BELL: know where to turn to as well.

SOPHIE BELL: And I think the other thing that we really

SOPHIE BELL: try and do through the Graded Care Antenatal

SOPHIE BELL: is acknowledge that some of those

SOPHIE BELL: risk factors aren't necessarily within the

SOPHIE BELL: control of the parents.

SOPHIE BELL: So things like for families living in poverty

SOPHIE BELL: who might be living in inadequate housing,

SOPHIE BELL: actually, we still need to recognise that for

SOPHIE BELL: the unborn baby and to try and support the

SOPHIE BELL: parents to have the right housing that's

SOPHIE BELL: suitable for their baby.

SOPHIE BELL: But actually through the Graded Care

SOPHIE BELL: Antenatal, we're looking very much at that

SOPHIE BELL: unborn baby's needs and not focusing on who

SOPHIE BELL: is to blame for this problem.

SOPHIE BELL: And some of that needs to be unpicked,

SOPHIE BELL: absolutely, through the wider pre-birth

SOPHIE BELL: assessment.

SOPHIE BELL: But it's really just an opportunity for us to

SOPHIE BELL: highlight where some of the risk areas are

SOPHIE BELL: and where some of the concerns are, but

SOPHIE BELL: actually by saying, "and now we need to

SOPHIE BELL: support you to find the right housing, to be

SOPHIE BELL: able to access the right benefits" and all of

SOPHIE BELL: those kinds of things if that's an issue for

SOPHIE BELL: families. And thinking about my

SOPHIE BELL: experiences as a practitioner, going out and

SOPHIE BELL: working with families when that was my role,

SOPHIE BELL: one of the things that families would often

SOPHIE BELL: say is "we know there's a problem, we know

SOPHIE BELL: that things aren't great, but actually we

SOPHIE BELL: just don't know how to pinpoint those

SOPHIE BELL: issues." And often it can feel so

SOPHIE BELL: overwhelming, particularly if you've had

SOPHIE BELL: services involved before.

SOPHIE BELL: And so I think to have a tool which not only

SOPHIE BELL: helps the families to pinpoint those issues,

SOPHIE BELL: but also helps them to see that there are

SOPHIE BELL: strengths as well can be really empowering

SOPHIE BELL: for families, can't it, and can really

SOPHIE BELL: support that conversation.

ANNA SQUIRRELL: It opens up those difficult discussions as

ANNA SQUIRRELL: well, and the parents are part of that

ANNA SQUIRRELL: discussion. So there's no surprises along

ANNA SQUIRRELL: the way with them. They're very much aware

ANNA SQUIRRELL: of what our concerns are right from the

ANNA SQUIRRELL: beginning, and we're working towards a

ANNA SQUIRRELL: goal which is looking at those identified

ANNA SQUIRRELL: areas and making those improvements.

ANNA SQUIRRELL: So I agree, it just really does open up

ANNA SQUIRRELL: those good conversations.

NINA BELL: Yeah. Just to add to that, I think it allows

NINA BELL: for a lot of reflection as well.

NINA BELL: Particularly for parents who have had previous

NINA BELL: involvement with social care and haven't used

NINA BELL: this tool with workers before.

NINA BELL: I think it allows for a lot of reflection

NINA BELL: and this tool allows that to happen

NINA BELL: in a less threatening way.

NINA BELL: I know I've had a lot of parents feedback to

NINA BELL: me, it's been a really nice experience

NINA BELL: for them to do it with us because they've

NINA BELL: always had assessments and work written,

NINA BELL: you know, about them and never with them.

NINA BELL: And it is about their life, isn't it?

NINA BELL: So it's, you know, I think this tool really

NINA BELL: helps with that.

SOPHIE BELL: And I think by having the information laid

SOPHIE BELL: out in a tool with the different gradings and

SOPHIE BELL: the fact that it's colour-coded and parents

SOPHIE BELL: can see, so I might be an amber now and I

SOPHIE BELL: want to move up to a yellow.

SOPHIE BELL: The yellow always will tell them what that

SOPHIE BELL: next step is so they can see then what am I

SOPHIE BELL: working towards? What's the next step up on

SOPHIE BELL: that ladder? So rather than us saying,

SOPHIE BELL: "actually this is an area of concern, you

SOPHIE BELL: need to do better." What we're saying is

SOPHIE BELL: "this is an area of concern, and what we'd

SOPHIE BELL: like to see is this", which might be a green,

SOPHIE BELL: but the next step isn't.

SOPHIE BELL: You know, we don't expect you to get from

SOPHIE BELL: nought to 100 by next week.

SOPHIE BELL: But we can see the stepping stones for

SOPHIE BELL: families to move forward, so that if there is

SOPHIE BELL: an opportunity within the pregnancy to

SOPHIE BELL: reassess or regrade the Graded Care

SOPHIE BELL: Antenatal towards the end of the pregnancy,

SOPHIE BELL: what we can do then is say, "okay, so we can

SOPHIE BELL: see that in these areas, things have improved

SOPHIE BELL: by this much, and what we'd like to see now

SOPHIE BELL: is this next step."

ANNA SQUIRRELL: I think it complements the pre-birth work

ANNA SQUIRRELL: that we do in the team as well, because we

ANNA SQUIRRELL: get referrals as early as ten, 12 weeks.

ANNA SQUIRRELL: Nina will know this because obviously we get

ANNA SQUIRRELL: these referrals through from CADS

ANNA SQUIRRELL: (children's advice and duty service). And

ANNA SQUIRRELL: as soon as we get that referral through,

ANNA SQUIRRELL: we start the programme, which is looking

ANNA SQUIRRELL: at healthy eating and the importance of

ANNA SQUIRRELL: antenatal appointments, bonding and

ANNA SQUIRRELL: attachment with the unborn baby.

ANNA SQUIRRELL: And so that work really complements the

ANNA SQUIRRELL: Graded Care as well. So they kind of work

ANNA SQUIRRELL: aligned with each other, which is really

ANNA SQUIRRELL: good.

SOPHIE BELL: I think one of the challenges I recognise in

SOPHIE BELL: pre-birth assessments is about that voice of

SOPHIE BELL: the child and how we can... It's difficult

SOPHIE BELL: when you've got a baby or a pre-verbal child

SOPHIE BELL: or a non-verbal child to really include the

SOPHIE BELL: voice of the child. But actually, when you

SOPHIE BELL: can't even see that child, that can again

SOPHIE BELL: be even more difficult to try and, within the

SOPHIE BELL: assessment, articulate the voice of the child

SOPHIE BELL: in that lived experience of that unborn baby.

SOPHIE BELL: Do you have any ways or any tools that you

SOPHIE BELL: try and bring through the voice of the unborn

SOPHIE BELL: baby within your pre-birth assessments?

NINA BELL: I know, particularly for me, I write

NINA BELL: to the unborn baby as if he or

NINA BELL: she was, you know, was here.

NINA BELL: Really talking about what

NINA BELL: the current worries are, the strengths, what

NINA BELL: parents are doing to move things along

NINA BELL: and get the right help.

NINA BELL: And it seems to bring that unborn baby to life.

NINA BELL: And, you know, if they were to be born

NINA BELL: tomorrow, what what their lived experiences be?

NINA BELL: And I know family support will do that as well

NINA BELL: on home visit notes, and it does really

NINA BELL: help bring the unborn baby and that unborn

NINA BELL: voice to life.

SOPHIE BELL: Oh, that sounds fantastic.

SOPHIE BELL: And I think that's a really nice place to end

SOPHIE BELL: our discussion.

SOPHIE BELL: Anna and Nina, thank you for joining me today

SOPHIE BELL: to talk about early years assessments.

SOPHIE BELL: If you've listened to this and you want to

SOPHIE BELL: find out more about the NSPCC's Graded Care

SOPHIE BELL: Antenatal assessment tool, please visit

SOPHIE BELL: nspcc.org.uk/GCP2A.

INTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning

INTRO: podcast.

INTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content

INTRO: was up to date, but the world of safeguarding and

INTRO: child protection is ever-changing.

INTRO: So, if you're looking for the most current

INTRO: safeguarding and child protection training,

INTRO: information or resources, please visit

INTRO: our website for professionals at

INTRO: nspcc.org.uk/learning.