Audio file

Inspired by Caron Bradshaw OBE

Transcript

00:00:06 Speaker 1

Thank you for joining me, Emma Abbott, communications manager at CFG for ‘Inspired by...’ a podcast newly launched by CFG where we spend just a few minutes chatting to somebody about what's inspired them, and how they're inspiring others in the charity finance space, the charity sector more widely and drawing on lessons and ideas from other sectors. Today, I'm joined by Caron Bradshaw OBE, Chief Executive Officer at CFG and newly appointed to the Lending Standards Board as a non-executive director.

00:00:36 Speaker 1

Hello, Caron. Thank you for joining me today. And congratulations on your appointment to Lending Standards Board. Tell us how it came about.

00:00:45 Speaker 2

So this is the latest step in a movement if you like that I've agreed with the [CFG] board and have been working towards for the last three or four years. Obviously, I've been at CFG for quite some time and we were talking together with the board about succession and what happens when somebody who has been in the chief executive post for quite some time steps away, it provides or offers a

00:01:11 Speaker 2

Unique set of challenges and risks, I think for an organisation when you reach that point, so with the permission of the board and with the backing and support of the board.

00:01:19 Speaker 2

I have been working towards building a portfolio career for the last three or four years and this is the latest step in that process for me. And I guess why Lending Standards Board, well, it's working in a number of spaces that we are familiar with.

00:01:33 Speaker 2

There's a big push and mission from the Lending Standards Board for that surrounds equity and equity in finance. So there's a lot of synergies with the skills and the things that I I've done over the last few years, a lot of value alignment between myself and it and it's yeah, so it looks like a really good exciting opportunity.

00:01:54 Speaker 1

It's a really exciting move, Caron, and once again, congratulations. What does this mean now for CFG, you’re remaining as CEO and you will be joined by two deputy chief executives, sounds like a really interesting move.

00:02:06 Speaker 2

Yes, it is, and it's a very, it's a very deliberate move. So part of the things that we do as an organisation focusing around the culture of the organisation has been around looking at personal development and professional development. So we have very open conversations with people within the organisation about what they want to do in future.

00:02:27 Speaker 2

And I'd had some conversations with two of my leadership team.

00:02:32 Speaker 2

Well, I had had conversations with all three of my leadership team, but two of my leadership team had indicated that they wanted to at some point in future be CEOs in their own right. So as I'm thinking about how do I step back and for that not to be a shock to an organisation that I've put a lot of years into, I love dearly has become quite.

00:02:53 Speaker 2

Linked with me because I've been around for a long time I started to think about, well, how can I how can I tick both boxes? How can I use that to manage the risk that CFG is faced with and my own personal aspirations, but also how do I lean into an opportunity to give to individuals who are talented, who've got complementary skills?

00:03:16 Speaker 2

The opportunity for them to personally develop in a supported and safe environment, wherever that might then take us. So it's it's part risk, it's part personal professional development.

00:03:27 Speaker 1

I think anyone who knows you well, Caron knows that you have a love for risk, as a topic.

00:03:35 Speaker 2

Glad you added ‘as a topic’ at the end there.

00:03:40 Speaker 1

Tell me a bit more about the thinking around the risk of that. So you've weighed up a lot of things you're doing what's right for you, you're creating opportunities for others. What were the conversations that you were having and what's inspired it?

00:03:53 Speaker 2

When you've got somebody who's been in an organisation a long time, stepping back can be quite a shock to the organisation and it can throw up a whole bunch of risks, loss of knowledge, different direction, loss of relationships. There's lots of different things around a long standing, CEO stepping back and I think can create risks for an organisation.

00:04:13 Speaker 2

But I always say that risk and opportunity are the flip sides of both coins. You know, it's a coin with two sides and I have to confess, I was inspired by our wonderful opening speech at the annual conference [in 2023] by Natalie Campbell and Charlotte Harrington. It shared their experience of becoming co-CEOs and that blend of it wasn't a job sharing the traditional sense that we hear about job shares. It was more of a collaboration between 2 talented individuals with complementary skills, and I stepped back and thought about the principles of that relationship and looked at Sarah and Claire.

00:04:55 Speaker 2

As those two leadership team members who wanted to become CEO's and thought WOW, actually these two have got complementary skills. They work really well together. There's a great dynamic between them and between Rui, our other leadership team member and me, and it feels like there's a real healthy conversation that we could have here to tick lots of boxes at once. So managing the risk to the organisation.

00:05:21 Speaker 2

Not just of a change in CEO, but also not meeting the needs of two talented and ambitious individuals and therefore losing their knowledge at some point from the organisation. Perhaps not when it is the most convenient for the organisation to lose. So there was something in in that conversation that was prompted by that.

00:05:42 Speaker 2

Presentation if you like, that did that fireside chat that I had with with Natalie and Charlotte that got me thinking about this and having explored that with the then chair, Gary, and then and now Chair, Kevin.

00:05:55 Speaker 2

And with the board, though, I'm glad to say that there was a lot of appetite for for us pursuing this and exploring how we could serve both Sarah and Claire's ambitions and protect CFG and look at succession and transition in a in a really different and.

00:06:14 Speaker 2

Well, I think exciting way.

00:06:16 Speaker 1

I have to say I feel like it's a very exciting time for CFG, generally. There's a lot planned. There's a lot of projects going on and I know we'll be talking more about that in the near future.

You've been at CFG for more than a decade now and you've learned loads during that time. You've shared loads during that time. Tell me, what are the leadership lessons that you've learned along the way?

00:06:35 Speaker 2

Hmm, that's interesting. We've been, I've been reflecting a little bit on this and I think there's quite a lot of points along the the journey, if you can use the cliche that have maybe go ohh, yes, looking back, but that's that's been a pivotal point at which I've then gone. Oh well, there's a different way to do things.

00:06:51 Speaker 2

I guess the first one is the Hippo principle of the ‘highest paid person's opinion’, and I was hosted by one of our corporate partners at a leadership event in Scotland. And I remember this guy saying that the HIPPO principle is that the person who is the highest paid person in the room, their opinion shapes or trump's every other person’s opinion in the room and I thought. Ohh yeah, there's something in that. And so I started to practise that where I would be silent. I would offer my opinion last and I'd actively, if somebody asked my opinion first, I'd say no, I'm gonna let others go first because I could see actually the outcome was very different. People felt, didn't feel constrained by my thinking even if you say, ‘Oh well, this isn't an edict’, this is just my opinion. It immediately shapes what comes next. So that was one of the things that I had started to practise, like getting out of the way. And then I guess another thing that comes to mind is the wonderful Lynn Berry. When she opened our annual conference a few years back, our brief to her was ‘empowering your staff’ and she said to me when we were having a conversation in the sort of run-up to it, you know, you're asking me the wrong question. It isn't about what do you do to empower. You can't empower people.

00:08:03 Speaker 2

What you can do is remove the barriers to empowerment. You have to ask yourself, what is it that I'm doing that's disempowering that person and that was really profound for me. And again, if you couple that with that HIPPO principle, you start to think about actually there's something about getting out the way. And then if you think about someone like Henry Stewart who also closed one of our conferences, he talks about not making decisions about getting out the way. So there is something really pivotal to me about leadership.

00:08:34 Speaker 2

Creating space for others. You can't create space for others whilst you occupy it, and therefore how do you take a step back in a way that doesn't risk your organisation, undermine or make it less strong whilst at the same time giving people support and encouragement and skills and safety to step into a space in a way that isn't going to set them up for failure.

00:09:01 Speaker 1

Some wonderful lessons there in leadership, Caron. Thank you for sharing those.

00:09:05 Speaker 1

Caron, what lessons would you like to leave CFG with in terms of leadership, understanding what leadership looks like, what it means?

00:09:12 Speaker 2

I mean, one of the big lessons that I wanna pass on to any any leader is this sort of notion that you don't have to be the one that answers all the questions to have, you know, the this sort of transitioning away as a leadership principle away from this hero leader that rocks up on a white charger and has all of the, you know, has all the answers.

00:09:32 Speaker 2

The reality is you don't have all the answers. I can give you an answer for most things because I've got an opinion on everything, but it's not necessarily the right answer. I'd like to think it's a. It's always gonna be a reasonable stab at something, but it's never gonna be the best answer in the world. Like a broken clock. It might be right twice, periodically.

00:09:52 Speaker 2

So how do you then go about getting the best answers and I think underpinning the whole of CFC's ethos is this notion of embracing inclusivity. You know, being open and and giving people of any background or diversity equal voice within a space. And the example that I'd give about that sort of wisdom of the crowd piece again, at the same conference.

00:10:16 Speaker 2

But I I said I I went to this leadership piece. This chap did this exercise where he passed around a sealed jar of sweets and you weren't allowed to count the sweets you. But I take them out and count them. You could look at it. You could come up with any method you wanted to come to your arrival at at what? How many suits were in the jar. But you weren't allowed to confer. You weren't allowed to tell anybody else what you've done. You just had to write it down.

00:10:41 Speaker 2

And at the end, he then took in all of these answers and he added them all together and divided them by the number of answers given and then demonstrated to us that actually within a very small tolerance.

00:10:51 Speaker 2

The number that we had guessed collectively was the number you know in the jar of sweets. So this sort of collective wisdom that we all have.

00:11:00 Speaker 2

That we can tap into if we don't try and give people too much information or allow them to confer too much or, you know, have this sort of group think dynamic is really powerful. And it's I don't. I don't know how it works and I can't think of the sort of wizardry of it. But it's it's a really powerful tool and I think so for me. How? How do we ensure that all those voices are heard and are pure voices? In other words, they're not unduly shaped or influenced by what other people are saying but can show up and give their diverse opinions in a way that is. Really a powerful mix for us to be able to then make good decisions for the organisation and for individuals going forward. So I guess that's that's my main lesson is think about how you harness the power of the collective rather than how do we put individuals on pedestals to to kind of make these hero decisions.

00:11:55 Speaker 1

I think that certainly challenges some established thinking around what leadership looks like. What does the future look like for you and CFG?

00:12:04 Speaker 2

So you don't get rid of me that easily. I'm not about to hot foot it off to the Bahamas. I want an orderly transition. I don't. I don't have a time frame on it. It could be the next six months. It could be the next two years, but obviously it has to be in balance with what is good for CFG and what happens next could be anything. It could be that actually the people in CFG don't need me hanging around.

00:12:27 Speaker 2

And I go off completely at [that] point or it could be that I end up moving into a more service position where I'm either being a consultant too or I'm, you know, putting content together. Or I'm training people or all of those things rather than a decision maker. And and I'm completely happy with that. I, you know, my my own status and success is not pinned on whether I'm making decisions.

00:12:51 Speaker 2

It's in a very, very different place so, but it has to be a balance of what is in the interest of the Members and CFG not just what do I want out of life and and my own balance so.

00:13:05 Speaker 2

There is a plan being put together. We are looking at charting lots of different potential scenarios and different options that might play out because obviously we can plan for the future, but we don't know what the future precisely holds. So we have to have I think lots of different options under our under our belt that we can then pivot to.

00:13:25 Speaker 2

When circumstances change and and we can adopt pick up the thread that seems to be the one that is most like where it where the where the world's taking us.

00:13:35 Speaker 2

So success for me will be that CFG continues to thrive, that the people involved in CFG continue to thrive, that the relationships are brilliant, that we continue to convene powerful networks that people think that we are the right place to go, you know, and that we are supporting those leaders out there, whatever their titles are, that are our financial leaders in the sector, and in the wider society.

00:13:58 Speaker 1

Thank you ever so much, Caron, for your time. I think we've all felt inspired by the words you've shared, the lessons you've learned, and the way you're doing things. So thank you.

00:14:06 Speaker 2

Ohh thanks Emma. It's always a pleasure.

00:14:09 Speaker 1

Thank you.

00:14:10 Speaker 1

So this is the first ‘Inspired by’ podcast from CFG, a shorter podcast talking to someone about what inspires them, who has inspired them, and how they are inspiring others. If you've got a story to tell or some inspiration to share, please do get in touch. We'd love to hear from you. You can e-mail info@cfg.org.uk.

ENDS