PB-E12 DISCUSS 040824-mast ===

Sarah Wayne Callies: [00:00:00] Oh, hello, Paul. Hello, Sarah. Um, welcome back to this episode of Prison Breaking with Sarah and Paul. We are actually really picking up steam here.

Paul Adelstein: Yes, we are. Uh,

Sarah Wayne Callies: the episodes are getting crazy.

Paul Adelstein: I thought you meant the podcast is getting crazy.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Our podcast is also in fact picking up steam.

Paul Adelstein: It has less twists and turns, the podcast does, less twists and turns than the show, certainly this episode of the show.

Sarah Wayne Callies: That's true. And less shanking. There's less shanking on the podcast.

Paul Adelstein: There's, yes. I mean, so far. Okay. Episode 112 of season one, Odd Man Out. Stuff is really starting to heat up in Fox River and out in the streets of Chicago. This is a big episode.

Sarah Wayne Callies: This is a big episode and there's [00:01:00] some real questions of conscience, uh, in this episode.

We've been talking about the sort of ethics of, What it means to be a good person, um, in the show. We have some come to Jesus moments, uh, in one case, quite literally.

Paul Adelstein: Uh, quite literally. It's all stuff we want to talk about and it turns out that we have the perfect guest to discuss just that.

Sarah Wayne Callies: We really do.

We have Karen Usher with us. Um, Karen wrote on Prison Break for its entire run. Um, we have a lot of questions with her. We've got your fan questions from our Instagram. But before we jump in with Karen, let's get to our favorite Kallistein index.

Paul Adelstein: Yes. Odd man out. Take it away, Paul. Well, I was pretending you.

Sorry. There's something called a dramatic pause. I'll be quiet. That we'll talk about. I know that on TV they're like, pick up your cues, there's no space. But now we're in peak, we're in peak podcast. We can take long, meaningful, okay. The Kallistein Index for Odd Man Out. It premiered on November 21st, 2005, was written [00:02:00] by Paul T.

Schering and today's guest Karen Usher and was watched by 10. 08 million people. The tvmaze. com summary reads, with proof that his escape plan is working, Michael gets suited up to overcome the vertical limits of his last obstacle. Back in P. I. as the escape attempts draw near, the group Tries to reduce their number by one and targets T Bag, who has some insurance in his pocket.

Outside the prison walls, LJ slips away to attend his mother's funeral, which is also attended by her murderer. Veronica gets a call from an unlikely source who sheds light on the night of Terrence Stedman's assassination.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And as usual now, the show is up against Two and a Half Men on CBS, Las Vegas on NBC in the Monday 9 p.

m. time slot, and Monday Night Football, uh, over on What would that have been? ABC. ABC. Um, the Vikings beat the Packers 20 to 17.

Paul Adelstein: In world events, Germany went to the polls, the Polish [00:03:00] people polls, but the voting booth polls and Angela Merkel became the first female chancellor of Germany. Hold on. Or wait, hold on.

Maybe they didn't go to the polls. Is that a parliamentary federation? Is she elected by members? I don't know.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I actually know that.

Paul Adelstein: Sorry.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, but in other things that are good for women around the world, Uh, Ellen Johnson Sirleaf was elected president of Liberia, becoming the first African woman elected to lead

Paul Adelstein: that country.

And on November 21st, it was the last time a human being won a chess match against a top performing computer under normal tournament conditions. Ultimately, the Man vs. Machine World Championships saw the computers beat the three former world champions eight to four. Odd man out indeed.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Ooh, seamless segue.

Bringing us back to Prison Break, episode 12, Odd Man Out. We're gonna rewatch it, shall we? Yeah, let's rewatch it. Here we go.

Paul Adelstein: Come join us. We're gonna do it now.

Sarah Wayne Callies: 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, go.

I would [00:04:00] love to watch Westmoreland just I love your sound cues. I don't think I have a sound cue. I don't think anybody has a sound cue on the show like you guys do. Oh wait! She's absolutely pregnant. That's what the piano means. That's that we're having a baby music cue. You didn't! Put a false ad in the paper, did you?

Paul Adelstein: We just knew to follow, just knew that he's gonna show. Because

Sarah Wayne Callies: if you planted the ad at the paper too, that would be

Paul Adelstein: Super smart.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Awfully badly nefarious. And super smart. And dastardly. And that's everything we need to know about Teabag.

Paul Adelstein: Okay, wow. That was an episode of television.

Sarah Wayne Callies: That was a lot. And there's a lot to discuss.

We'll be right back to talk about all of it here.

Paul Adelstein: Okay, we are back. And we found ourselves During this rewatch asking ourselves even more than usual. How did they come up with that one? It is just full [00:05:00] of amazing twists turns reversals surprises Which is great because this is perfect timing because our guest today co wrote the episode as well as writing and editing or co writing an astonishing 14 episodes of Prison Break across the series.

Sarah Wayne Callies: A few of Karen Usher's many, many, many, many credits include Bones, Backstrom, The Lion's Den, The Playboy Club, and One Tree Hill. I love you, Joy Lenz. Uh, it is important to say not only did she write or co write 14 episodes of Prison Break, but as a co EP on the show, she was crucial in shaping the entire series.

Uh, she was also one of the very few female writers on the show. We'll talk about that. Karen? Lenz!

Paul Adelstein: Hi, Karen. Welcome.

Karyn Usher: It's so strange to hear the context of when this happens. That's right. Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: It's been one of the things that has been blowing our minds weekly. Um, how things are so different.

Karyn Usher: Yeah.

Particularly television. [00:06:00] Yeah, I wouldn't, I would have never guessed. And I also forgot we were up against Monday Night Football.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah, and also 10 million viewers.

Karyn Usher: Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: Which now is like, you know, those are Super Bowl numbers.

Karyn Usher: Unheard of. Yes.

Paul Adelstein: Unheard of. Um,

Sarah Wayne Callies: so, okay. So many questions. So many things to talk about.

But I would love to start with, and we'll have you back on the show if you want to come back on the show. We don't have to cram it all in today. But just to start with, if I remember right, our initial order was not 22 episodes. Right. Which tells me at some point, we started with, what, 13 or something.

Karyn Usher: Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: You guys had an escape planned, and at some point, Fox goes, We love this. We'd like more episodes. And you guys have to go, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. Now we'll write eight or nine or ten more episodes of breaking out of prison. Yeah.

Karyn Usher: Yeah. Is that what happened? Well, I mean, it's [00:07:00] customary, I mean, in broadcast television that you get an order after your pilot, you get like an order for 12 episodes, and then you get what we call the back nine if the show is successful.

Um, You always notice that Prison Break, every season, had kind of like a finale, not that we were going to get canceled midstream, but we had two segments, essentially. So every season has a big twist around episode 12, 13, whatever that break is, and then something kind of completely different. Like there's a, there's just a big paradigm shift in the middle and it is because of exactly what you're saying.

Paul Adelstein: Uh huh. Uh huh.

Karyn Usher: I honestly, I don't remember what the plan was going to be if we didn't slack, no I mean,

Paul Adelstein: I

Karyn Usher: don't remember, but, um, you know, especially back in those days you have, you, you're kind of writing right behind, you don't have much time between writing and airing, right? Yeah. Back in the time we were airing probably number four, we knew we [00:08:00] were in good shape.

Paul Adelstein: So we kind of had a mid season finale, which I remember we would maybe go, even go off the air for a few weeks.

Karyn Usher: Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: Give every, you guys a chance to catch up and post a chance to catch up and then, but it brings up a larger question we keep asking. The pilot was made and there is obviously this incredibly detailed plan with the tattoo and with all these things tattooed on his body that are going to pay off down the road.

How much of the escape plan and the kind of intricacy of it from cute boys and English Fitz and Percy to this water tunnel to all that stuff was. there like on day one of the room or was it like, okay, you guys, we need to figure out how to break somebody out of prison.

Karyn Usher: I would say, I mean, as kind of like also customary with TV back at this time, um, We were really, like, we all got in the room and sort of started from there.

You know, in a big wide, if you would have [00:09:00] looked at Michael's tattoo in the big wide shot at the end of the pilot, it did not have little details. That's why a lot of times, not only is it on his arm so that he can look at it, but it's also on his arm because it's not in that big wide shot. We were adding to his tattoo as time went on.

Paul Schering wrote the pilot, beautifully shot by Brea Rattner. Um, and. He, I don't know if this was good or bad, but I, in Paul's mind, he imagined the scape based on the actual out, like, based on the layout of Juliet. So, no, if you look at that overhead shot of Jolie, that where the cell block, where, where Michael and Sue Gray's cell was, where the infirmary was, if you drew a diagram as we did many times.

We kind of really were breaking out of that [00:10:00] prison. I mean, we were taking a lot of liberties with how it worked, but that layout, in Paul's mind it was important and it kind of was fun, honestly. Like taking pieces and go, okay, this is where he is. Today,

Paul Adelstein: but by the time you're like, let's say that by the time we're in English fits in Percy, which is I think two episodes or three episodes previously, did you also know that there was going to be this shaft of water that got them to the top?

We had

Karyn Usher: like 10 pulls of the season where we were going, but that said, we didn't break those episodes and minutiae. And quite honestly, the episode prior to this. We didn't exactly break it to be this way, and when Zach turned in his script, and the end of his script said that one of us can't go, was not originally the plan, and I was like, Oh my god.

What did you do to me? And Olmstead was like, no, I like it. So, like, we kind of had to go back in and do some rejiggering, so, um. [00:11:00]

Paul Adelstein: That's a big liberty to take. Yeah,

Karyn Usher: yeah, no, but it really, kind of the best part of, best endings on Prison Break gave you that, like, how are they going to get out of this? And there was also, we did not know how we were going to get from the bottom of that chute.

I don't remember why, why in our minds this thing, this, this drain was so big, but, um, We didn't know how he was going to get up it when we started breaking this episode. And it was not easy. It was bad.

Paul Adelstein: Oh, wow.

Sarah Wayne Callies: So can I just ask a question that I think would be fun to answer and you can absolutely say no.

What's the worst idea? Like, do you have any from the four or five seasons? First of all, was it four seasons? Did you write on season five? I did not write on the reboot. But like, was there anything that you could remember a moment where someone You guys, let's try this. And everyone kind of goes, Ooh.

Karyn Usher: I mean, the two moments that come to mind are that [00:12:00] the original, um, you know, when Michael, uh, has the devil, like projects the devil's face on the wall.

Somebody might have already told you this in this, but, um, originally that was Jesus like on, like, on, like that. Yes. It's on the cross, right?

Paul Adelstein: Yes.

Karyn Usher: That was not, that, like, Fox wasn't super down with that. Because then you'd be

Paul Adelstein: hammering on G, like, hammering and in the, what are they called? What are the things?

Stigmata. Yeah. Stigmata, basically, this is where you nail, oh.

Karyn Usher: So that didn't, yeah.

Paul Adelstein: That didn't play.

Karyn Usher: We had to change that.

Paul Adelstein: You did get your Jesus imagery back, though.

Sarah Wayne Callies: You did get, and we were actually very shocked that that much Jesus made it onto network television. Yeah, actually,

Karyn Usher: I'm, I'm shocked about it too.

Like, like, looking back at it, and I didn't. Yeah. Honestly, on this show, sometimes I think, like, hearing things, I'm like, oh, wow, we, I'm surprised.

Paul Adelstein: Like a character named T Bag?

Karyn Usher: Or [00:13:00] Avocado Balls Johnson? Like, we spelled, we would spell it like Balls, B A L L Z, Johnson, and it went clear. And it's like, no, no.

Paul Adelstein: I hate to bring us to the gutter, but like, how did we, we've talked about it at least three times.

Did the teabag, was that, were you guys like, they still haven't said anything?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Did they just don't know? Did they just miss it? Did they just not know?

Karyn Usher: This show was loaded with rusty trombones.

Paul Adelstein: Yes, I heard

Karyn Usher: that the other day. Yeah. And how? Yeah. Yeah. So, um. I mean, I think the teabag, I don't remember, no one ever, yeah, no one's.

Oh,

Paul Adelstein: wow. Wow.

Karyn Usher: And I love that it's later that someone's like, oh, theater

Sarah Wayne Callies: bag, well,

Paul Adelstein: be like, oh, right. We're gonna, that is reverse engineering for sure. Well, that's what that means. I also love, somebody's gotta go. There's this whole Abruzzi storyline about him kind of finding God. And then T Bag slits his throat.

And it's an incredible reversal. It sends the series, it sends [00:14:00] the whole escape plan in a completely different way.

Karyn Usher: Yeah, we knew Abruzzi, we knew it was going to be Abruzzi that was going to die. We knew we wanted it to be a twist. We knew we wanted a big episode for Abruzzi if he was going to die. Um, we all know how things.

work on Prison Break, so I killed a Broodsy twice. We've all died at least once. I died twice. I died at

Paul Adelstein: least twice, yeah. I

Karyn Usher: know. Um, so yeah, I killed a Broodsy twice, but we did know, and that's why he has this, you know, this big, good story. I was very proud, there was a website called the Futon Critic back in the day.

Paul Adelstein: Oh yeah, sure. I remember that one. One of their

Karyn Usher: hundred best episodes of the year, so I was like, Congratulations. So I remember being very happy about that, because I do, That's an episode.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Wait, can we back up for one second? Paul, is that all right? Of course. Back up for a second. How did you end up writing on the show?

And I'm asking that partly because I'm curious, but [00:15:00] partly because you were one of the only women writing on the show. I think we had one female director. Um, we, we have gotten now to episode 12. We've got one scene that passes the Bechdel test. Like this is a super dude heavy show at a time in television when the mythology was women can't write.

action. Women can't write sci fi, but you know what I mean? Like, they're, again, 2005. Um, I'm not saying that everything's better, but things have changed a little. How did you end up on the bro iest show with the bro iest writers?

Karyn Usher: Honestly, I went through the staffing process. I'm trying to remember if the show before was One Tree Hill, which was kind of out of my wheelhouse, honestly.

Like, back at that time, we would write back episodes, we called them, that were of existing television shows. And that's, I remember when we were, when you were a lower level writer, because you did not get born at the top. Definitely. I worked for the female showrunners [00:16:00] at John Wells, who like, everyone told me when I was a baby writer, like, you're going to do this for 10 years before you write a pilot.

So, we, um, I had, most of my samples were things like The Sopranos,

Paul Adelstein: and

Karyn Usher: I actually used to write with a lot of male protagonists,

Paul Adelstein: so

Karyn Usher: I had examples that were probably relevant, and then I just got called for a meeting with Joe Hemps, probably off. that Sam Ball, the, who worked with Don and Marty at their company.

And I remember reading the pilot on the way to that meeting and going, this is so preposterous. This is so crazy. Totally. My agent, and I can kind of remember talking to my agent, he's still my agent. And I was like, is this? And he's like, no, no, it's good. It's good. It's good. You've got to see the pilot.

It's so good. And so it took me a minute to like wrap my head around it. And then, I met with, you know, Paul and Matt and [00:17:00] everyone and I got the job and it ended up being my, it's my longest, it's the longest run I've ever had.

Paul Adelstein: Was, um, and you don't, we can obviously also cut anything out we want, um, we're not live.

True story. Um, was it a bro y writer's room? You, you can address as much or as little of that as you care to, but was it a I mean, it was definitely

Karyn Usher: a different time. Let's just be clear, like it was a different time in terms of how, in terms of how. all writers rooms were. I mean, I had never been on a show where we did things like pay the assistants a hundred bucks to shave their heads, but at the same time.

Sorry. Yeah, we'll get back to that. Okay. I'm making

Sarah Wayne Callies: a note.

Karyn Usher: But at the same time, um, the sort of the, I think almost the subject matter being a male prison.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah.

Karyn Usher: And being like such a small, you know, if there just were, you know, there's like [00:18:00] Sarah on the screen and there's like me in the room and we had Monica Masur, we had Kalinda Vasquez during the run of the show.

But, um, Yeah. I wouldn't say honestly that the humor or anything that was handled was any different than a lot of other shows that I've been on and the showrunners were definitely, like, really excellent showrunners, both Matt, you know, Matt Olmstead is, I still have an inner Matt Olmstead in my head that like, when as a showrunner now, I'm like, I get into a mess.

I have like my inner Olmstead that's like, do this, do that. You know what I mean? So yeah, Paul was so creative, honestly, Paul is crazy and like a good way. So we had really strong leadership. And I think. Um, I look back at some of the other shows that I was on, on Fox and with far more women in the room and they were equally bro y.

Paul Adelstein: Well,

Sarah Wayne Callies: and you know, which, by the way, was a [00:19:00] game that we were all taught we had to play, right? Like, you have to be, you have to be one of the guys. Like, I

Karyn Usher: have a very dark sense of humor. I developed in high school, I'm, I'm definitely a Gen X cynical, dark sense of humor person. So really, I'm, there might have been a certain sentiment.

Back when I was younger, where it's like, oh, we have to hire a woman, so I guess we'll take Usher. You know what I mean?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Sure. Well, and you know, I think both you and Paul make a really good point, which is what you see on the screen and the numbers of men versus women don't necessarily define what is and is not a sort of bro y world or even a healthy culture.

I mean, you know, you're coming off of One Tree Hill and like, I've worked with both Hillary and Joy, and they've talked extensively on their podcasts about like, I don't speak ill of

Karyn Usher: people publicly. Mark Schwan and I did not get along, I'll be honest about that. And I felt everyone on that show was a prisoner.

[00:20:00] And, I pretty much, I was not on the first episode. So when I got there on episode 13 or whenever, I walked in and I was like, what is going on here? I mean, it really, so coming from that culture to have like Nick Santora telling jokes that sounded like they were like, borscht belt humor was not effective.

I mean, it just, there was, it, It wasn't, you know, so it was a really good group. Also, every writer's room is sort of functionally different.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah.

Karyn Usher: Yeah. And, um, this room was one of the most functional rooms I've ever been in. People did not agree on the story necessarily, but it was the right mix of people to come up with.

the best story that, you know what I mean? So it was a really functional room and everyone could write the show. Part of that is, you know, [00:21:00] just the expectation that everybody had to write the show. But, um, yeah, it was a really good group.

Sarah Wayne Callies: But we didn't ever get episodes being like, Oh God, it's this one, you know, like we've all been on shows where you're like, there is one writer who can't write the show and you get that episode.

And you just go, I just have to wait for the blue pages. This doesn't make sense.

Paul Adelstein: For a show that was so intricately plotted. There was not a shit ton of rewriting going on between production, draft, and shooting. I mean, there were obviously pages and there were changes, but I mean, I've been on so many shows that get blown up over and over and over, even mid episode.

That seemed to almost never happen with it.

Karyn Usher: Yeah, no. I mean, that is, was, that is, a lot of that comes from Olmstead, who was, you know, the From like the Bojko camp, John Wells camp is the same way, where basically, there's not going to be, like, this is the script, we're going to get it in on time.

Paul Adelstein: Plugging

Karyn Usher: up can happen on any show, but honestly, once the show [00:22:00] started rolling, I felt like the studio and network were almost reading it from the place of the fan that was like, Oh, we can't wait to know what happens next, which ended up being really great for us.

The hard part for us was reconceiving at the end of every season. Everyone wanted to debate what the next season was going to be, and that's when we would get batted back. and be told no. And then that's when Matt would tell them that they could take it or leaving, and we were all going bowling. And we would literally go bowling until they agreed to do, he was like, you can fire us, we'll be bowling.

And then we Get to do our show, so.

Paul Adelstein: Like you'd go bowling every day until you heard from them?

Karyn Usher: It usually was a day where we were bowling was a day that we would go bowling and they would be like, okay.

Paul Adelstein: Wow.

Karyn Usher: That did happen, like, on, as we were reinventing the show. You could ask them about it. Well, because

Sarah Wayne Callies: every season

Karyn Usher: was radically [00:23:00] different.

Yeah, that was the hard part.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, and TV didn't do that then. Can I, just small thing for the fans, Bochco Camp. For people who don't know, what are the Bochco shows that Matt was coming from? Because they were a big deal.

Karyn Usher: NYPD Blue. Yeah. Like, that's me from NYPD Blue. And so, which was a great show that I, yeah, it's like in college, I mean, I didn't, I didn't watch it until later, but it was, it was great.

But it, yeah. Yeah, and a lot of showrunners don't necessarily, um, especially now you're going to have showrunners that don't, that didn't have to do this thing where you learned the whole process and you. So at that time, a lot of us, Zach, you know, his, he was like a second generation writer. I mean, there were just, we had to learn what we were doing.

And so we were prepared.

Paul Adelstein: Which brings me back to another thing we felt, I felt from the room. There is a sense of joy in the storytelling. I think there's a sense of joy coming from the [00:24:00] writer's room, like there's a real vibe.

Karyn Usher: One thing that was different about this show is writers can self censor themselves and kind of overly, like, um, think too hard about what's logical.

Nobody ever gets to the end of any story and goes, Like, oh my god, did you see that episode? It was amazing. It was so logical. That's not what's entertaining. And so, um, our stories on prison break would be something That would be, that would, we'd be like, Oh my God, are we really going to do this story where teabag is taped to a toilet on network television?

Like are we really going to do that? And then would be like, yeah, yes we are. Now.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. I mean, there's an irreverence to it. I mean, I

Karyn Usher: think in a lot of ways it was, um, prison break was kind of the first or second idea that came out of the room that was a good idea. And I think a lot of canceled shows, frankly, are.

Especially back at that time were shows where you had big, huge [00:25:00] rooms that were too large. So everybody was, you know, you have 12, 12 people can't make a story. Um, and they, and the eighth best idea would win. And I, what

Sarah Wayne Callies: was there a total, a tonal guide that you guys would sort of stick with? Like we've talked a lot about the tone of the show and I remember Wentworth was talked about it being like a little bit of comic booky, a little bit, like it's not a gritty slice of life.

This is how life is.

Karyn Usher: Yeah, I mean the pilot was so good in terms of executing a specific tone that I think a good benchmark to go by. And I think that is, you know, that's what's hard about doing like the show I'm doing right now. We don't, we're going to start shooting them and we don't know what they are until we shoot all eight of them.

So pilots can help really set that tone. Um, I did find it comic booky, particularly in some of the shots, frankly, and the heightened [00:26:00] nature of the world. There are lots of things that are not, it's not overly researched, frankly, like what was the most fundamentally. Um, a curious thing in the show is sort of a depiction of generally prison, like the function of a prison, how we did a lot of, we were in a lot of prisons and, and so we did do like prison research, but when it comes to like how electricity works, doesn't work.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Right. Um, by the way, I remember season four, we went to Comic Con and my initial, I was like, why are we going to come? This is, by the way, this is. Whatever 2009 so Comic Con San Diego was still awesome. It was still like geeks and nerds and people who were truly in love with it. It wasn't this sort of overblown insane film festival.

Um, and I turned to [00:27:00] Wentworth and I was like, what are we doing at Comic Con? And he was like, this is the best. This is a comic book.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: We are shooting a live action comic book and I thought that was a really, it was interesting and kind of apt and I love that you guys didn't spend so much time with the logic police that the show got less fun because it was so, I mean it was so fun to watch him plug this hole and then you're like, what are you doing with this garbage bag?

And then there's drips of water and it's not until you go, Oh my God, he's swimming in this beautiful, extraordinary, wonderful comic book shot. Yeah. Without, for a second, going, but is a bag full of clothes gonna keep a pipe?

Karyn Usher: Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Sure. And what of the water, sound of the water? Like, shut up, it's fun. Yeah.

Speaking of fun, can we go back to paying the writer's assistants a hundred dollars to shave their heads? I'm so excited about this. Tell me everything. Because one of those assistants was a guy, [00:28:00] was Seth, from my

Karyn Usher: college, and Seth has never told me this story. Um, it was Seth, and I believe Seth did shave his head.

And I just remember it was first, it was like first season, it was in the first, we were in an office that we didn't stay in very long, I don't think. Um. And I had been in the office, that's what, I was not One Tree Hill, it was a show called North Shore, and I was in the office, and the show changed, and I stayed in the office, and the show went from being North Shore to this new office.

That's what it was. Um, and the assistants were paid a hundred bucks to shave their heads, and they all went for it. Amazing. Were they all? Maybe a sign that assistants are underpaid.

Paul Adelstein: If I was in my, if I was 22 and I was like, someone offered me a hundred bucks to shave my head on the street, I probably would have done it.

Karyn Usher: Well, and I know Monica Masar was a, was a story editor probably at that time. And she's like, can I shave my head? Can I shave? Right. I get that.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Paul, if I offered you a hundred bucks [00:29:00] right now, would you shave your head?

Paul Adelstein: Oh, okay. Ten thousand? One thousand? Um, no,

Sarah Wayne Callies: no. Would

Paul Adelstein: you? I mean,

Sarah Wayne Callies: that's probably inflation.

No, but it's gonna, but it's gonna take me six years to grow my hair back. But you'd look great. You'd have a

Paul Adelstein: great Ripley. You'd have a great alien for.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I know I look like an alien. Yeah. The back of my head is not shaped properly. In fact, one of the things my husband once said to me, like we were early dating and he was like giving me a head massage and he's like, Hey, do yourself a favor.

Don't ever shave your head. Oh, can I ask you one, and feel free not to answer this question, but one last question that has come up a bunch of times. Um, actors changing lines. I mean, it happened on this show in a way that I've never really seen on other shows. And you guys work hard on episodes. And I just, you know, like, We also, and this [00:30:00] is somewhat inside baseball, but a lot of shows, like the last show I was just on, we shot on the Paramount lot.

If I had a question about the script, I would walk down to the writer's room and I would go, Hi guys, can I have a kombucha and can I ask a question about what this is? How do I make this work? Right? Because I, my understanding is clearly off because I don't get it. And they would go, Oh no, no, no, you're not, you're dumb.

It's left, not right. Oh, okay, great. We're going right. Okay, great. We figured out. You guys were in LA, we were in Chicago, or Dallas, or wherever, but we were almost never in LA. How does that sit? Like, was it a like, oh, okay, well they got the sense of the scene and that's fine? Or would you sometimes get dailies and go, Oh, I just labored over this baby and this baby is now dead and nobody said it.

Karyn Usher: You know what? I mean, I've worked with Kiefer Sutherland. So if you want to know about like not saying your lines, like it, I don't, does he write as he goes? Oh my God. Like you just like, Oh my God, they're paying a lot of money for these scripts that he isn't [00:31:00] saying. Um, the, I don't remember, um, I don't remember our stories falling apart in that way.

I don't think we weren't like, you know, I don't know, there's, uh, the writer Aaron Sorkin who's famous for writing like his first show was The West Wing, now famous for writing so many things, um, that he would be really like, you can't change this if, to, but, right? Um, in general, this is just my opinion in general.

I want to sound like, I want. The dialogue to sound like it's coming out of the actor's mouth. Rather than coming off the page, it's more important. So like if, if I'm in casting and somebody comes in, I, I would rather them understand the material and say what they would be saying. And so that I can get a sense of how they're going to play the role, then [00:32:00] stick right to every word that said dialogue isn't particularly precious.

Like, I don't. My just the way I write if it's a joke and you botch it If it's something that's like, you know what I mean? Like, right? Yeah I don't want you to like mess up humor and then it has to be cut out. That's what I that's what I frankly worry about

Paul Adelstein: also um for somebody who's been on both sides of it sarah and i'm sure you're the same way like I feel like there's there's too many actors That want to just make it sound like them.

And so they will put it in their own voice, no matter what character they're playing.

Karyn Usher: And

Paul Adelstein: that's, to me, that's lazy.

Karyn Usher: Well, it's not like a character anymore, but like, look at the show where you're like, that is not Wentworth. That is Michael Scofield. I mean, that is a totally, or the one that always, um, Supre, Amati, is the one, like when I first met him [00:33:00] out, you know, I hadn't, I didn't, I didn't know him until I went to the set, and I was working with him, and you know, he was just like, on Hightown, on Starz, he's like this like drug kingpin, and this is all by virtue of his eyebrows, I'm pretty sure.

He is like the most elegant guy, right? He literally is like the most elegant, and it's so interesting to me, going back and watching the show, and how. Everyone's, like, everyone's playing a character here, it's a credit to the performances on this show that, that I don't think anybody's playing themselves around here, um, and, but I don't, I guess I've been on shows where, you know, I've worked with Rob Lowe, um, Kyle Schiller, honestly, changes his lines, I think I, that, you know.

Friday Night Lights that was, um, running at the same time as this, you know, Kyle Chandler kind of famously, you know, would go off [00:34:00] script. I don't think this show was like famous for going off script. Our stories, I don't remember our stories being blown up by anything, and the stories were pretty intricate.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, and I remember calling you, and again, most of this was season two, I would call you and go, can I cut these five lines if I promise to put it on my face? You know, and it was, it was that conversation and you'd be like, yes, I have to get this draft through the studio. So they need to see the line. Yeah.

If you don't, I need to get from you this feeling. Yeah. If it's in your face or if it's not, you know, because Wentworth changed his lines quite a lot. And so I would call you and be like, here's, here's what I'm planning on doing in response. Because if I say my lines as written, they're now not going to make sense.

And, you know, I remember having those conversations with you, with Satora, with, with Zach. But

Paul Adelstein: even that, even what you're saying there is so different than even, I think, what happens a lot on set, where actors just show up and change their lines.

Sarah Wayne Callies: For sure.

Paul Adelstein: I mean, that's much different than writing an email or calling someone and saying, Hey, I'm doing this [00:35:00] scene tomorrow or next week.

Can we talk about it? It's much different than showing up and saying to some guest director that doesn't really have a lot of power. No, I'm saying it this way.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, and that's actually, that's, it's a, it's a terrible place to put the director in. Terrible place to put director, we can't give that approval.

Karyn Usher: Yeah. I mean, it really, it really bothers me, frankly, when actors want to change things on the day because I can't think very well. In that moment, I

Paul Adelstein: can,

Karyn Usher: like, I don't even think the best in a writer's room because I don't know how to explain it, but, like, it comes out of my fingers, not out of my mouth.

Sure. I don't, like, if somebody comes to me on the day and they're like, I don't want to do this and I don't want to do this, and, like, could you have told me when I had time to, like, answer this, typing? And even when it would be, you know, I worked with Rainn Wilson once who was used to comedy and he's like, he's doing a lot of [00:36:00] like extemporaneous and he wants not that he wouldn't say his lines because he would say the line, but he would want alts because that's how comedy works, right?

Like they would, in drama, you're kind of saying you're kind of, you're doing what's on the page, but in comedy you're doing what's on the page and then you're going through all. So he alternate lines is what I mean. And so he would ask for them, and I would literally have to walk off the set and text them to him because I couldn't, I

Paul Adelstein: mean,

Karyn Usher: so basically I'd be like, he'd be like, can I have these?

And I'd be like, okay. And he'd have to like, get his phone. And then I would go away from the people and be like, this one, this one, this one. So that's fascinating.

Paul Adelstein: It's so interesting that that's the, so many people are talkers and not writers that are writers and you're, you comes out of your fingers.

Also, uh, almost on every show that I've ever been on that goes for more than a season somewhere in season one or in season two, there becomes a rule [00:37:00] that is if you have something you need changed or want to talk about 24 or 48 hours after that, it's locked. You cannot do it on the day. It's it takes time on set.

It screws up guest directors. It's just, it's just not good process.

Karyn Usher: Yeah, it really, I just, I, I also just don't like that it signals that you haven't internalized this by, by the day. And I'm like, you're not going, I'd like to see all the nuance here. So, I mean, you need to think about this before, I mean, everybody's putting a lot of time into this.

I'm not saying it's easy to be an actor because I think it's horrible. Like just to be. I wouldn't want to, um, have to shout that much, and I wouldn't want to, like, go through it. There's, like, a lot of stuff that you guys have to go through. Um, at the same time, But it's still part of the

Sarah Wayne Callies: job to have fully digested and be completely prepared for showing up.

It is not your job to roll up, read the sides in the trailer and [00:38:00] go, I don't like that.

Paul Adelstein: I learn it in the chair. I mean, maybe if you want to memorize the lines in a chair, that's fine, but I haven't thought about this till rehearsal is not good.

Karyn Usher: Yeah. And then to that other actor also. It's so self,

Paul Adelstein: to the

Karyn Usher: whole

Paul Adelstein: production, That's the

Karyn Usher: thing.

That's a thing.

Paul Adelstein: Everything done. You also see it so much in the last 10 to 15 years as, as, um, feature film people have started working in television, that they're moving at a kind of luxurious one to two page feature film pace where they're like, let's sit down and talk about this scene for a while and let's shoot.

And you're like, and it's like, this is TV, dude. We do not have 30

Karyn Usher: to say like, yeah, that's good. You know, what's going to go away after these strikes and all of these mergers. Not. Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: I don't want to name names, but I, well, how do I not? Yeah, anyway, you can't do that. That's where the feature film pace doesn't work in television.

Sarah Wayne Callies: You can't do that. And quite frankly, uh, for most feature films, it doesn't work [00:39:00] that way either. Do you know what I mean? Most feature films, you now have 25 days to shoot your movie. Um, if it's not, you know, a giant film, and I think there's something to that too. I, um, am super, super, super grateful for that answer.

Also, again, your time. So we're going to do a little commercial thingy and then we'll see if we've got time to answer a few fan questions, although I think actually many of them we've already covered.

Paul Adelstein: We'll be right back with Karen Usher to answer some of your questions and then ask her a couple to wrap up.

Sarah Wayne Callies: All right, welcome back everybody. Thank you for leaving your questions on Instagram, our at prison break podcast. Um, who do we have here? What are you, Paul, do you have any questions out of this one that you like?

Paul Adelstein: At mjh4192 asks, is there any character you wish you could have changed their story over the, over the entire series?

Is there anybody you wish like, oh, I wish we hadn't? Dispatched of Kellerman there. And [00:40:00] maybe we could, um,

Karyn Usher: no,

Paul Adelstein: anything that pops out.

Karyn Usher: Um, honestly, nothing like springs to mind is something that I felt like I'm sure if I went back and rewatched, I would think some things didn't necessarily work as well as others, but nothing.

I never felt like there was any colossal mistake. Um, that I, that I wasn't happy with, um, by the way, Paul, I would not let your dead body be shown. That's one thing I, because I really felt not only was I a huge Kellerman fan, but I, I really felt that there was, um, that there was, uh, a use to eventually when the end of the show came and knew that we were going to need Kellerman for that, there wasn't that there was no villain that was going to replace.

even though, you know, you had like the general in season four or whatever, that, that there [00:41:00] was no, the real, there was, there was no bad guy beyond the complexity that we had with Caliburn. So, um, When you got shot in that van, I, uh, had it out with Paul Shearing.

Paul Adelstein: Thank you for that. And I, you know what's so funny, uh, just in terms of how TV has changed.

At the time, nobody said to me, and I didn't even think, well, they never showed, it was like, yo, he's dead. With no reason. Like, and 10 percent of it was like, they're, you know, they could bring them back if they wanted to. I feel like now, when people watch the show, like, when my nieces watched it, like, 15 years later.

Oh, interesting. They're all like, well, we didn't see, like, people are so used to huge kind of pulling the rug out from under your feet, paradigm shifts like that, that people are more, I think the audience is way more attuned to that kind of, trickery is the wrong word, but that kind of device. Like, I think it's more of a thing [00:42:00] now than it was, because you invented it.

But you didn't kill lead characters, really,

Sarah Wayne Callies: on a show.

Karyn Usher: I mean, Prison Break was crazy if you look at the fact that like, hundreds of people died for Lincoln Burroughs, who was only innocent because he went to kill the guy and he was already dead. Um, there was,

Paul Adelstein: but he was high on weed,

Karyn Usher: he had a giant crystal meth debt, so, so, um, but yeah, there was a lot, a lot of dying going

Sarah Wayne Callies: on.

Um, here's another one from at the rover underscore, uh, which episode was the easiest to write? Which came to you the fastest and which was the hardest to write? I don't know if that's an answerable question, but. Maybe you had one that just flew from the fingertips, and one where you had to bash your head in the wall.

Karyn Usher: I'll tell you that because, so like my, my producorial rank on the show, because we kind of go in [00:43:00] sequence, so like Matt would write one, and then I believe maybe Nick, like the order that we went in meant that I was a co producer, so I was like the, I was third or fourth in line. Uh huh. So when you do the math for that, I always ended up on the episodes.

That were, if you were drawing out the tentpoles of the show, let's say you're drawing out this big thing happens in one, and this big thing happens in six, and this big thing happens in twelve. Nothing happens in Karen's episode. Nothing. Nothing. Oh my god. I actually, and in a way that was, we had some really good episodes that came out of that.

I mean, I think this is one of them. I think one called J Cat where Michael like, J Cat is so great. So like, but that came out of the fact that like, I want to say that was episode 16 and it was blank on the board. And then [00:44:00] something, something happens there. Karen connects the dots. So basically,

Paul Adelstein: so basically the writing assignment of that is.

Every complication you can think of, move forward, but you have to land back at zero at the end of the episode. Really,

Karyn Usher: I mean, it really, I did have a lot of those episodes, and we broke them very intensely in detail, every single scene in the room, every day, all day, from ten to six. Like, that's what we, okay, till five, because I pumpkin really hard at five.

Fair. And I namelessly called the pumpkin, because I You're just

Paul Adelstein: like

Sarah Wayne Callies: By the way, for those who don't know, the pumpkin is when Cinderella's carriage turns back into a pumpkin. It, it basically means when somebody is, uh, when you're talking about a kid pumpkining, that's child labor laws, you gotta pull that kid.

When somebody pumpkins, it's like, hey guys, I, I can no longer serve the, the, the team. I'm done.

Karyn Usher: Yeah, if ever there was a show, it didn't happen on this show because actually we were really functional, but [00:45:00] if ever there was a show that they were like, and we're ordering dinner. I'm like, you're ordering dinner, ordering dinner.

That's not going to work for me. Um, all of my episodes were hard, frankly. I can't remember one.

Paul Adelstein: The breaking or the writing or both? Um, like the breaking of, I mean, coming up with the story in the room or the when you went off to do dialogue action ordering? I

Karyn Usher: remember in, in season four, season four was almost the hardest because it was for the Superman, basically.

Paul Adelstein: Uh

Karyn Usher: huh. Uh huh. Season four was essentially, you had to be invested in a conspiracy and that was, I guess, all of season four. It was probably In a way the hardest we knew it was the last season which was great because a lot of shows don't have that benefit. I know that there are some broadcast shows being canceled right now that weren't going to have the benefit of knowing either way and I think that that's so at least what was over but we were also tying up loose ends on a really complicated [00:46:00] conspiracy and that was hard.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, there's so many other fan questions. I don't know that we have time for them. We lose you in minutes. Yes. Um, so, dear fans, thank you for the questions. Hopefully this conversation touched on what you wanted to hear on. Otherwise, we'll just have Karen back.

Paul Adelstein: I think we'd like to have Karen back.

Karyn Usher: Well, I will be around on Zoom

Paul Adelstein: and just click on You just click the button and here we are.

Um Zoom. Listeners, please follow us at Apple Podcasts or Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. You can also get our Watch Party episodes and hear all these episodes ad free by subscribing to our show on Patreon.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Karen, we have a call in line.

Paul Adelstein: Call us at 401 3P BREAK, prison break, that is, not, you're in, okay.

4 0 1 3, pee break, and leave your questions, and this week's question is, what, as we reach the halfway [00:47:00] point, what is your favorite episode of season one, and why?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, Karen, thank you so much, so, so, so, so, so, so much for today. We have two little questions that we end our, uh, our guests with. The first is, if you were on death row, what would your last meal be?

Karyn Usher: I mean, why did, I, oh, pizza. Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I love, I love that you said that, like, that's a stupid question because it should be everybody's answer.

Paul Adelstein: Can we, can we just drill down on that? Like, talk like I'm in a restroom, let's drill down on that for a second. From where and with, from where and with what on it?

Karyn Usher: I'm from Ohio, so it has to be that, like, Cracker crust.

Yes. Well, that's my bag. So, so with that, um, and the sauce has to be like a tiny bit sweet and then like pepperonis, but not like flat ones, like the ones that they call the curl,

Paul Adelstein: the curly guys, the curly amazing. And then finally, we have [00:48:00] a fill in the blank question for you, which it's not really a question.

It's just finish this statement, please. As we leave our audience with the following advice, remember folks, don't go to prison. But if you do go to prison, remember to blank.

Karyn Usher: Read about it before you go.

Sarah Wayne Callies: That's such a great writer question. Great.

Paul Adelstein: That shit you should research. That shit you should research.

That

Sarah Wayne Callies: shit you should research. Not by watching Prison Break. Well, we won't be home long. Read up.

Paul Adelstein: Right. Amazing. We love

Sarah Wayne Callies: you. You're wonderful. Thank you so

Paul Adelstein: much. Thank you so much.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Bye, everybody. Bye, Karen. Bye. Prison Breaking with Sarah and Paul is a Caliber Studio production. Our hosts have been friends without besties, Sarah Wayne Callies and Paul Edelstein.

Our prison warden has been producer Ben Haber. Our head of Jailhouse Rock is Paul Edelstein, who made the music for this podcast. Keeping us slim and trim, the Prison Yard has been sound designer and editor, the great Jeff Schmidt. [00:49:00] Keeping us up to date on the outside world is production assistant Drew Austin.

Our prison artist, logo, and brand designer is John Nunziato and LittleBigBrands. Check them out at www. littlebigbrands. com. Follow us on Instagram at Prison Break Podcast. Email us at prisonbreaking at caliber studio. com and call us at 401 3P B R E A K. Prison Breaking with Sarah and Paul has been a Calibre Studio Production.

Thank you for listening.