Holly Tucker (00:00:00) - Oh my goodness. This week's guest is the remarkable Giovanna Fletcher. Not only is she the nicest woman, but she's an actress. She's an author, she's a podcast host, she's an extraordinary champion of mums everywhere. And she's just a gorgeous human being, authentic. And she's warm and she's wise and she's so relatable. And for me, what I think is most extraordinary is, I suppose, her courage and her strength to be unapologetically herself. And it's taken time to get there. And she's in the public eye. But when you listen to her stories and her words, the vulnerability she shows that she can step outside her comfort zones, exposing sort of parts of herself, but yet still has her feet firmly on the ground and understanding exactly who she is. So I just think this is one of the most uplifting and empowering. Like a duvet, like a duvet hug type of podcast. If there's such a word, it's honest. It's beautiful, just like her. So sit back and soak it all up.
Holly Tucker (00:01:10) - Enjoy.
Music (00:01:11) - Bow your head and let your eyelids close on down where we're going. You won't need to bring your frown.
Holly Tucker (00:01:18) - Hi, I'm Holly Tucker and welcome to my podcast Conversations of Inspiration. I founded my first business not on the high street at 28, with a newborn strapped to my chest. Nearly 20 years on, he's all grown up and I'm running my second business, Holly and Co. I've learnt so much about taking risks, running a business and some extraordinary life lessons along the way and I know others have too. Yet, despite the wealth of experience we have between us, lessons like this are often left unheard and it can feel like we're travelling our paths alone. So I've reached out to founders and those who simply inspire me to share their hard earned wisdom with you. My hope is that collectively, these remarkable realizations will help you on your own journey. I like to think of it as inspiration for life. If you enjoyed this episode, might I ask you to share it with a friend and to, like, subscribe and review it so that together we can ignite people's passion across the UK? Now let's begin this week's conversation of inspiration.
Holly Tucker (00:02:32) - Hi Tirana, what an absolute pleasure it is to have you on my podcast Conversations of Inspiration. Welcome. Thank you. I mean.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:02:40) - I already feel quite, a lot of pressure conversations of inspiration like, can I deliver kind of deliver this?
Holly Tucker (00:02:48) - Oh, I mean, are you joking me? Of course you can, because you don't actually need much of an introduction because I know everyone listening knows who you are. But you are a hugely successful author, a brilliant actress, and TV presenter. You're also podcast royalty and have been crowned Queen of the castle. Not to mention that you are one of the most relatable down to earth parenting gurus there is. So I reckon that potentially you're going to inspire us, right? I definitely think this we've just been chatting, I'm writing, saying that you've literally just finished your run, starring in the much loved West End musical Everybody's Talking about Jamie, and it's a true life story. Well, tell me what it's about because you play Miss Hedge. Yes, and I'd love to know what it's about and what that experience has been like for you.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:03:35) - So the actual story is inspired by a real boy who wanted to go to his school prom in a dress because he, well, he wanted to be a drag queen. And that's basically the same story that we follow and in the same in the true life as well, you know, Jamie. So he is Jamie Campbell. Are Jamie is Jamie new? Yeah. Jamie Campbell was told that he would not be allowed to go to prom in a dress. That that was not the done thing. And boys have to go dressed as boys, and, you know, that is that. But he was filming a channel four documentary at the time, and so he went in that dress and, it's about what happens at school when he gets there. And so we kind of we follow that very much. But it's also a sense of him really discovering who he is and, and learning to show the world that. I feel like from the start, Jamie knew exactly. Completely. Yeah, knows who he is.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:04:30) - It's about other people accepting that, accepting themselves, accepting life. you know Miss Hedges very much. so she's their teacher, their form tutor who also teaches them careers. And, you know, I feel like she's not one of those teachers who shouldn't be a teacher because she absolutely did go into the job for the right reasons. I just feel like she's been a bit, disheartened by life. And therefore, she does care for these kids. And she wants to alleviate any of the aspects. Operations that they might have to save them. I think that's I honestly think that's how she's easing ahead. Yeah. She's not doing it to be mean. She just you know, she had dreams and aspirations. They didn't work out for her. She got brokenhearted by it. These kids don't need to do that. Just set you set your bar low. Yeah. And then you'll achieve. And that's that. and obviously Jamie is a bit of a problem for her. He is a child, a boy, a young man that she's always had a lot of time for and a lot of, you know, love for in that sort of teacher student way.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:05:31) - But he's now pushing those boundaries and, you know, they've literally got three weeks left of term. And he's doing it now, you know, now you're going to really push the boundaries. When I'm about to say goodbye to you all and send you out into the world. And so it's that and so it kind of really gets her back up, you know, and she tries to sort of pull him back and says, you know, keep it real, keep it real. But ultimately he is keeping it real. And she's just got to, learn that what is real to her is all real to other people, isn't. You know, she's got to look at people for exactly who they are. Gosh. And it's it was so wonderful to do. I feel really lucky because, the majority of my scenes, were with, the year 11. So the, the young actors who are, you know, in their, sort of, well, very late teens, early 20s.
Holly Tucker (00:06:23) - Yeah.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:06:24) - And they were so playful and they're just, you know, they're playing your elevens came on stage.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:06:28) - I never quite knew what they were going to be improvising around me. you know, certain times it was definitely highly inappropriate. and they're, you know, sending each other notes and stuff. And it was just great and playful. And I think so often in life, especially doing what we do, it's very hard to be in the moment with anything. You know, you're constantly thinking, I've got to do that, I've got to do that. I've got to do that. Whereas when you're on stage, nothing else can exist purely for the fact that you've got all those people watching. And if you take your eye off the ball, that is when something's going to go wrong. So yeah, I absolutely love theatre for that. And this is my first West End musical. So that's been been great fun to be rapping and dancing and singing. I've been great.
Holly Tucker (00:07:08) - It's almost like you're saying that. I mean, I've never thought of it that way, but, that it's almost mindful to you.
Holly Tucker (00:07:15) - Yeah. Like sort of slightly because you can't do anything else. It's, you know, some people do yoga, you stand on stage. I know.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:07:22) - But there's always that weird feeling before going on. I like especially early on in the run, like I was surprised with this actually, how quickly I didn't feel this. Whereas usually like 222 I felt this the content like the the whole of the run, that feeling of going on stage of what if I just don't do it tonight? What if I just don't go on? What if, what if, what if I don't? What, what if, what if I get it wrong? What if you know all these what ifs that are all sort of catastrophizing and, and then just, you know, you get a little traffic light system basically backstage when you're about to have your cue. So you get a flashing red light that you need to press just so it goes block red so that the stage manager knows you're there. Then it goes green when that's your little like.
Holly Tucker (00:08:01) - Remote control thing.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:08:03) - Yeah. So you. Yeah. Exactly. So you you'll be having all those thoughts while it's flashing red and then it's green. So you'd like what I'm going now I know. So all those worries get left behind. which is, taught me a really good lesson in that we can really catastrophize things and worry about the what ifs, but, you know, so say I go on stage and I fluff a line. That is my worst nightmare on stage. Really? You know, I broke my ankle on stage. That was worse. But this show, you know, say you get a line wrong when you miss a, like part of the song. Whatever. In your mind, that's the worst thing ever. Then it happens and it carries on. Yes. And I think that's a really good learning. It's a really good thing to take away. It's like things happen. You can worry about the things happening, but when they do happen, life continues. It doesn't just stop there.
Holly Tucker (00:08:51) - And actually no one noticed either.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:08:52) - No, no, exactly. Sometimes it's quite funny if you know, someone gets a an unfortunate stutter on one word or, you know, something comes out slightly screwy. But no, the audience won't notice. We'll notice because we'll know that someone's rhythm has changed, or they'll have that slight look of fear in their eye.
Holly Tucker (00:09:08) - You know?
Giovanna Fletcher (00:09:09) - But that's delicious, right? That's that's kind of why you wouldn't do that.
Holly Tucker (00:09:12) - Word.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:09:13) - Theatre. You know, I can remember in 222, there was one scene where one of the other actors had to throw a packet of cigarettes to, you know, at the other actor across the stage, and sometimes it would go flying past them or into unfortunate body parts, you know, but and you just, you kind of just roll with it and you find the funny in that. Yeah.
Holly Tucker (00:09:33) - Oh, gosh. It must have been just an amazing experience. And certainly the subject that you're talking about, I'm wondering, as a mum of three boys, has the role sparked any interesting conversations at home?
Giovanna Fletcher (00:09:46) - Absolutely.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:09:47) - Absolutely has. So they came to see it when I was in Southampton and then back when I was in London. and they found it absolutely fascinating. One of them was like, you know, so when I, when I go to a prom, can I wear a dress? Well, yeah. If you want to wear a dress, you can wear a dress. Yeah, I think I might. Can I wear heels? Yeah, you can wear. Do it. Two of my boys have really long hair. Yeah. You know, they, You know, one of them just loves dressing up. He's always a Ghostbuster or a character from Star Wars or a Doctor Who. I take him to the park sometimes and he looks at it. Literally looks like a Victorian ghost, you know, with his top hat, hot top hat, running around the playground, you know. But I love the fact that he simply doesn't care. Yes, but we don't.
Holly Tucker (00:10:30) - Play that.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:10:30) - Live. Yeah, we don't have highly flamboyant characters in our lives.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:10:34) - We don't. But in Jamie, he can see those characters and he can really identify with those people. Not, you know, maybe not in terms of what they want to do or be, but kind of like just in terms of being who they are, unashamedly who they are. you know, and I, I hope that never leaves. You know, I.
Holly Tucker (00:10:55) - Think having a mum like you, though, is, is, is a great thing because you know, that's going to be the reason that they can do that and that you are giving them that power. I'm wondering talking about that power. You know, if we go back to your childhood, in those early days of growing up in Essex with your dad Mario and your mum Kim and your siblings Georgina and Mario, on the surface it all sounded quite idyllic. But I know that school was an unhappy place, actually almost opposite to what we're talking about now, because you were very you were bullied as a young child, and I'm just so sorry when researching you how bloody little you were.
Holly Tucker (00:11:34) - I just can't stand it, I know. Can you tell me about that period of time? Because I know, you know, we'll go on to what you're doing, but I. I'd love to just take a moment, if that if we could.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:11:46) - What's interesting about this, actually. So I did a campaign for, like an anti-bullying campaign when buzz was, I think I must have only had buzz or buzz was about to start schools. Maybe I had two of them, and I was going back and talking about it, but also looking at a picture of myself at that age. And it broke my heart to think that that had happened then and that it could potentially happen to buzz, you know, or any of my children. And I think it's because he was just about to start school, that kind of really hit. So essentially I, I got bullied for a number of years by two girls who I just wanted to be their friend, literally just wanted to be their friends, but a friend.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:12:23) - But everyone, you know, you know, three is a crowd. Absolutely. Yeah. but there was lots of name calling, pushing over. I was regularly sort of pushed over. If I wasn't pushed over, I'd be sort of backed into rose bushes. Having the nurse or pull thorns from, you know, your backside and stuff is never going to be not an embarrassing thing. Even, you know, as an adult, I can remember being in my 20s and going to Regent's Park and sitting down next to the rose bushes, which are gorgeous in Regent's Park, and I've been there loads since, and it doesn't affect me now, but like seeing those then and kind of going, oh gosh, like it felt really uncomfortable being being there, being with them. And it was just, you know, it was just really uncomfortable. And my mum was, you know, she advocated for me so much. She really fought my corner. Sadly, back then, it was a time where bullying really wasn't taken seriously.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:13:15) - I know, but you know, and, and you know, all of our mums were very much they would be at the school gates for drop off. They'd be at the school gates for pickup. They were all friends.
Holly Tucker (00:13:26) - all of the parents of the bullies. Yeah.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:13:28) - And I really felt for my mum having to. It obviously created a situation for the adults, which I would have been totally unaware of.
Holly Tucker (00:13:37) - Unaware of?
Giovanna Fletcher (00:13:38) - Yeah. you know, and, but we ended up moving, because it was, it was really, really bad. What I find fascinating is that that was obviously really awful. And, the way that I was made to feel back then, I obviously didn't feel safe going into school, but I loved.
Holly Tucker (00:13:57) - School, right?
Giovanna Fletcher (00:13:58) - I absolutely love school. And I'm not sure if I always felt like that or whether it was when we moved to Ingatestone that it really became that thing like I loved it. I was the kid who asked for extra spellings. I was the one that would be there any extra time they needed someone.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:14:14) - And actually I was like that from my junior school in Ingatestone, even to Sylvia's. You know, when I started there, if Sylvia needed someone to help with auditions, I was there. If she needed someone for summer school, I was there. I loved being in those places and in those environments. So do you.
Holly Tucker (00:14:28) - Think thank goodness you move, because actually, that whole bullying thing, if you had been kept there, it would have just stifled.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:14:35) - Yeah.
Holly Tucker (00:14:36) - A love of your life, you know. Absolutely. And I do wonder I know everyone's thinking this, by the way, and you're not going to say it, but I do wonder, you know, what goes around comes around type thing. I always think I've had some instances in my life where, you know, people talk about karma and I'm like, freaking out, karma, can you hurry up, please? Because, like, how long do we have to wait? And then it comes along like a couple of. My things is 20 years.
Holly Tucker (00:15:01) - It's taken, but there it is. Oh my God, it's juicy. I do think that potentially you going on to be who you are. Oh my God. Just must make them cringe completely.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:15:14) - But you know what though? my way of coping back then was to, walk around the field or the playground, sing songs to myself, act out scenes. When I told Shane Richie this years ago, he was like, well, no wonder you were bullied. And I was like, fair point. But I was literally just, you know, in my own world and actually telling stories and everything. Who knows if that would have even come out? Well, that's a.
Holly Tucker (00:15:38) - That's a very nice way of looking at it potentially. But I do still think that they must you must just be oh my God, she's on TV. Oh my God. Again, it's like you're like haunting them, which is fantastic. But we were.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:15:53) - Kids, so I wonder I really do wonder now whether they even are aware of what they did back then.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:15:59) - You know what I mean? We were young.
Holly Tucker (00:16:01) - yes. Yeah, I agree, I agree, but it's still it's still good calm. As calm as all the time with you. Yeah, all the time with you. So you moved, as you said. And you, it was through that move that and your playground and you being very kind person, saying you're singing in the playground, that you discovered your love of singing in acting. And it was quite fascinating when I read, as I think I imagined, you know, for other people maybe going through bullying, it would almost, maybe shut you down. But in a way it just did the opposite. It was creativity. And you, a couple of years later at 13, found this passion for drama and you applied for Sylvia Young Theatre School. I couldn't believe your parents didn't know about it. I mean, it's a pretty bold move. I mean, imagine if yours do something at that age. I mean, you'd be. Tell me about this dream of becoming an actress.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:16:56) - Well, so it kind of started, as soon as we move. So I moved at nine, and, singing was such a massive part of that. Schools. You know what they did? You know, it was a Church of England school. So there were lots of hymns. We were Catholic. That didn't matter. It was a village. It was fine. you know, there were hymns all the time and, you know, there'd be school plays. And it was so much fun. And I can remember literally my first term there being asked to sing A Little Mermaid, you know, Oh, my God, what is the song? look at this part of that part of your world. Okay. and my mum and dad, I had hearing difficulties as a kid. You know, I was eight and out of the nose and throat hospital. I used to be highly frustrated, really physical, because I simply couldn't hear. So my mum, for my mum and dad, see that child who literally couldn't communicate very well, go on stage and sing, you know, this solo in.
Holly Tucker (00:17:53) - This, you know, in school.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:17:54) - Production was a massive, massive thing. And I think having it was the difference of having those teachers believe in you. I think as well. Yes. And then from that there was just this local, drum group were doing The Wizard of Oz. So me and my friend and my sister were like, shall we just audition? I think it was literally the first production that they had ever done, because it was the adult drum group were starting the one for the kids. Yep. Got the part of Dorothy. Loved it. Honestly, it was the best thing ever, ever, ever. And I you know, I saw some of my friends that I made there over the weekend actually. And you think that's like, that's 3030.
Holly Tucker (00:18:33) - You believe you can say that, by the way? Doesn't it freak you out? I know you're like crazy. 30 hang on a minute, I can't, I should be it's a 30. It's like surely an I know.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:18:44) - you know, and that was amazing. And actually it put me in a whole other group as well. So this arm drum group were like, are there another family? Like meeting people who have the same interests as you? Yeah. You can just get together and sing songs or accents. It's amazing. but I can remember seeing Sylvie Young on Live and Kicking and at the bottom of the screen, it's it gave a number to call for a prospectus, so I got that. It arrived. I applied for a scholarship. Then my date came through for an audition. And at that point I went, Mum and Dad, can you take me to London for the day, please? yeah. And I you know what? So I'd applied for a scholarship. I didn't get the scholarship, but I got one of Sylvia's special deals, which basically, when you find out when you get there, you realise that Sylvia is helping nearly everyone in that school because she. She believed in the kids that were there.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:19:35) - and actually, Sylvia and I helping Norman came to watch Jamie actually last week, last Wednesday. Oh my God, I can't like. So Sylvia's health hasn't been. She's very good now, but she had a bit of a troubling time over Christmas and seeing them both, there was just the most emotional thing ever. Like, I literally owe my life to Sylvia. You know, not only did she accept me into that school and give me a place to to be with people. People that were like minded that, you know, just. Yeah, it's just amazing. And, you know, and I got a good education. You know, I did my maths GCSE early and got a nice start. Like I still did all that stuff. but I met Tom there and exactly.
Holly Tucker (00:20:13) - You know, I was going to say you met. Yeah. I mean, literally changed your life.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:20:17) - I don't know what my life would have been had I not gone to Sylvia's. You know.
Holly Tucker (00:20:21) - It is incredible, isn't it? When we think about that bullying, if you hadn't of moved.
Holly Tucker (00:20:26) - Yeah. Applying for the school if you hadn't of gone.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:20:29) - Yeah. All those sliding.
Holly Tucker (00:20:30) - Doors. Sliding doors, isn't it. It is a complete sliding doors. So when you think about it, it's all pretty phenomenal that you had the confidence to put yourself out there in this new environment. And you've been through, obviously, this horrible experience of bullies and things. Did that have an impact on the way that you sort of went on? So you went into that school and but you just had that experience because I definitely think, you know, when you go through, you know, scars must have been left. Yeah. A new perspective maybe on people I don't know did it because we have this sort of thing that you get through it, but actually you carry it with you, don't you? Maybe for life.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:21:10) - I think I have spent far too much of my life worrying about what people think about me and wanting to be liked. And actually, I think motherhood has changed that. You kind of go, yeah, I don't care, I don't.
Holly Tucker (00:21:25) - Yeah.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:21:25) - You realise that you're putting your focus in the wrong places. You know, if there's if you go somewhere and there's, there are two people, one's just instantly nice to you straight away. The other one's got a bit of an edge and you're like, oh, I'm just gonna, just gonna work away at that. So you like me like that's putting your focus on the wrong person, because there's one who instantly is giving you the time and the respect. You shouldn't have to work for people's respect. I feel like respect is something that should be given instantly.
Holly Tucker (00:21:52) - That erodes it, rather than, yeah, remove it.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:21:55) - Yeah. Don't just, you know, I remember being in auditions and think it's a very different vibe because I've been in auditions and I've worked at auditions. So I've seen, you know, lots of different sides of people in, in that setting. And when you go to an audition and you know, the person that is in front of you is, leaning forward and they're really engaged with what you're doing, that's a very different vibe going into a room and having the person sit back in their chair, kind of like an impress me what you got? Like, I don't know how you're meant to get the best out of people if if you're already putting them on the sort of.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:22:26) - Yeah, well.
Holly Tucker (00:22:27) - They're putting themselves first, aren't they. Almost. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It takes someone to put someone else first. The leaning forward, you know, that they're wishing. But how how have you been able. Because one of the things I notice about you that I admire about you is that that openness. So you said it's when you had children, but that openness about your insecurities, you know, I think certainly I don't know, I look at it maybe from building these businesses, but I too, you know, very much. And I think it's what women tend to do is you want people to like you, you know, that is the thing that you want. And and actually, it's frowned upon from male counterparts is sort of like a weakness and etc., etc.. And yet actually, it's it does train a muscle, you know, if you can get people to like you, right, who don't like you. So the guy that's got the edge with you when you were using those two experiences, you do work a muscle, don't you? Because you're going to convert that person.
Holly Tucker (00:23:24) - That's what's going to happen here. You know, you're done, but I'm going to convert you. I think I spend my whole freaking life doing that. I mean, honestly, what do you think? Because it is, it's hard to then say, okay, I don't mind. You don't like me? Yeah, it is hard. What leads you to have that strength now?
Giovanna Fletcher (00:23:47) - I don't know, I think knowing that age, being a mum, knowing that time is limited, I think a massive part of it is, the work that I do for Copperfield, actually, you have a very good understanding of life and how short it is and how you know if everything was gone tomorrow, but I really want to have wasted my last moments on people that don't deserve the time. I really believe that everyone is good inside. I there's, well, people that I have encountered, and I know there are some people that, you know, struggle to find the goodness. And but I do feel, you know, the majority of people that I come across there is good.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:24:24) - so I kind of try and lean into that, I don't know, I'm. It's hot because I could I could come off this call and then something will happen. I'll be like.
Holly Tucker (00:24:34) - They don't like me. Yeah. You just never.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:24:36) - Know what's gonna happen in the moment. And it will be fluctuating and change. but right now I kind of feel a bit like, I think when it comes to acting, the stuff I'm like, well, that's not real life, is it? Real life is, you know, the actual stuff. This is, this is not important.
Holly Tucker (00:24:52) - This is not important.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:24:53) - It's not important. Am I my kids healthy and happy? That's important, you know, am I, you know, all of that stuff, but some stranger or someone who isn't necessarily treating me in the way that I think people should be treated, then that's. Yeah, it's it's.
Holly Tucker (00:25:11) - A I do think that age really does help. You know, I was looking gosh, someone sent me, you know, forward no.
Holly Tucker (00:25:18) - Father of the bride, Steve Martin and his wife. Do you know they're 45 in that. No. 1045. Isn't that crazy? And I bring it up because of that sort of thing of age and and that actually, now we're in a way, we get to have the best of both worlds. In a way, we get to be young. Yeah. So we're, you know, I'm going to be 47 this week. We get to be young. not Steve Martin in Father of the bride. Right. But also we get to have what we might have observed is as people get older, they care less about what other people think. Yeah. So I feel like almost in a way, it's an incredibly empowering thing. I think this stage of women, you know, we're almost still now we're we're pulling up the seat to the table. We're not coming away from it. We're not retiring. We're in our prime. Plus, the shackles of what people think about us is coming away.
Holly Tucker (00:26:16) - And I almost don't know what. We've seen that before. In a way.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:26:19) - I think it's also because we're we're starting to look through certain things. You know, if you look at how, you know, I mean, I used to work at heat magazine, but magazines like heat, and other magazines who used to put people on the covers, you used to tell us what we should be thinking of. People, you know, whether they've put on weight, they've not put on weight, you know, they've lost too much weight. You know, the the the looks that we should be looking like. And if if you deviate away from this, then you're a terrible person. I honestly think that growing up how you looked had a reflection on your worth. And now I think we all know that. That's absolute rubbish. Yeah, that is not a thing at all. And I think it's kind of made us go, oh, well, wait a minute, I've paid far too much. Like like with the person who doesn't like you.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:27:02) - These people don't like you. They don't care about you. They want you to buy their products.
Holly Tucker (00:27:07) - Buy their product.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:27:08) - That's all they want from you. You are the. That's it, that's it.
Holly Tucker (00:27:12) - You're a statistic. You're just a number of.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:27:14) - Securities you have. Yeah. The more you.
Holly Tucker (00:27:17) - Go to them.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:27:17) - Feed into what they what they want to sell you. And I think I do think that we are a generation of women who have, have really grasped that, you know, when I look back to my mum, when she was, my age, you know, I can remember her doing the Mr. Motivator stuff, you know, the different fads and diets and all of that. My mum was saying like. Yeah. And, you know.
Holly Tucker (00:27:40) - Like the watermelon juice diet to the green, green and red days and things. I mean it was wasn't it. Yeah. Where I put that on though as well. You know, it is it is interesting. You know, I'm not saying that.
Holly Tucker (00:27:55) - But she came from that 60s and that whole it was the magazines Woman's own. It was all of that sort of time. And then you as a young girl, you look at your mum and, and they're doing all those things. And I'm not saying this in a bad way towards mum, but I'm also thinking maybe for you as well, that you, you just absorb that, you know, I think about what you, how beautifully you write about body positivity. And I know it's one of the things that so many people admire you for, myself included. You know, I love when you go for your runs and things like that. It's given me confidence to just be just to pull the sort of screen back a little bit and be more me. And when you say stats of 80% of women have dealt with negativity around their own body image, and when you read those sort of words that you wrote to your letter to your body and it really, really moved me, you say we are one.
Holly Tucker (00:28:49) - I'm sorry that I spent so much of my time disliking you. I failed to see that you were damaged, hurt and in need of my love. I never realised your strength and I think everybody can relate to that. You know, you say you say these things and I totally believe in it. But I will also have a complete freak out this morning that my jeans didn't fit properly, and that I have got a whole section of my wardrobe. That's for when I am that size, because I will be. But I've spent 20 goddamn years. Yeah, it still is in me. Like I can't help it. How have you dealt with this?
Giovanna Fletcher (00:29:30) - I try to see it now as more of an observation. So rather than as a negative thing, like I know when I get myself in a bit of a funk, I know when I'm, you know, eating more. I thought doing Jamie would see me lose weight like the other. So he's going.
Holly Tucker (00:29:44) - To think that. I did think that today before thinking, I was thinking she must be doing like a workout, like Beyonce on stage every night.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:29:51) - I happen, I don't understand. So doing 2 to 2 and wish you were dead. I lost weight in both and I think it was the fear factor, the kind of adrenaline of it. I think it was because there was a a pasta bar next door. I lost zero eight. If anything I have put on weight doing, Jamie has. But I just don't understand. I don't understand this, but for me, I try to see it more as an observation. I know my weight goes up and down. I know you know that running makes me feel good. I try and see running and exercising more as a thing for my brain. Now, you know, young. When I was younger, I used to do those things and, you know, I used to calorie counting. You know, I remember I've got diaries full of when on the bike today. Burn off this off that, you know, only eight, six apples. You know, whatever nonsense that day was and feeling, you know, feeling satisfied with that.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:30:42) - My day feeling like I'd achieved. And now I kind of go. Well, that's a bit sad, isn't it? Because actually, rather than spending your time looking a number, like, just go out and and feel what you're doing, you know, I always say the best bit of any run is the end is actually stopping because running, I actually don't like it.
Holly Tucker (00:31:00) - It's fun. Absolutely. The end. I mean, yeah, just 100%. Yeah.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:31:07) - And I know that I go through phases where I'm really into running and I know I'm in go in phases when I'm really into boxing, and then life happens and things are thrown off schedule here. And then I don't get that time. I don't get that slot because maybe Tom's away or the kids need something different. So, you know, that kind of goes out the window, but I know that it will return. So I, I think now I try and stay a bit more, relax about it. Plus, you know, I'm just I'm over not being able to do things because of how I look like.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:31:36) - That's ridiculous. That's just nonsense. Like, I can remember going to the beach with my kids and them having like, a water fight. And just like, I'm not going to sit under the umbrella and hide like hide from what? You've got a body go out there and you like, go and live your life.
Holly Tucker (00:31:56) - With the year well underway and time flying by, I'm thrilled to be back with a brand new series of conversations of inspiration. If you're a new listener, a big hello from me, and a warm welcome. And if you've been part of this community for many years, then welcome back at Holly and Co. It's our mission to create a world where women feel seen and celebrated, where we're able to work in a way that we want to around our families, show our love for the people we hold dear, and express ourselves in less ordinary ways to really feel like us. That's why on our small business marketplace, you'll find everything you need to do that in style. From unique handmade gifts for every possible life event, innovative finds for minis to grow, their brilliant minds, to homeware that's curated into exciting collections, and so much more.
Holly Tucker (00:32:51) - We also share all kinds of ideas to help you live creatively, and all the tools and confidence you need to start your own business. Just visit Holly Co or sign up to our emails to see where we could take you. For now, let's get back to conversations of inspiration. Bryony Gordon for this podcast. She said Liking Your Body is a radical feminist act and that she's not going to spend any more time having hateful thoughts about her body because it keeps her alive on a day to day basis and because now she has a daughter, do you think? And actually, that was another podcast that I had some real sort of moments when she was saying those things, that it is actually a radically feminist act to love ourselves, you know, and you think, oh, gosh, you know, I can't like myself. Do you know it's not very British to like yourself? Do you think that there has been a shift in the way we as women see our bodies, and that we see other women's bodies? Yeah.
Holly Tucker (00:33:55) - And I think.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:33:55) - This is actually, especially in our generation, it does matter. It does depend on where you are bubble wise. I, I admit to that. but if you put the right people in your algorithms and you don't forget those social media platforms, you create your feed. If you are seeing the right people, then you are seeing different bodies. And that just makes you go, oh, that's just put in it. You know what I mean? It just kind of it takes away we're not just looking at the you know, I was talking the other day about the fact that there was heroin chic was a look, you know, that the fact that that was a look that people aspired to. And if you opened a magazine, that was all you were seeing, you turn on the TV and every actress was, you know, influenced by that look so that you had jeans.
Holly Tucker (00:34:37) - Yes. That were what were they call hipsters, right? Yeah. I mean, are you joking me? I can't get hipster jeans.
Holly Tucker (00:34:45) - The worst invention ever known to mankind. Especially if you're like me and you have a pot belly, like a little piggy. Just always have had one. What the hell are those things? But you're so right. There was just that moment, wasn't there? The Jodie Kidd moment, which was the absolutely that thing. And that's what we were absorbing. When you say you make your feeds, I totally agree. I have you and Brian. I'm empowered. I'm I'm always empowered by my feed. It's so worrying, isn't it, that if you get into the wrong bubble, can I.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:35:17) - Just say on Bryony, actually she's the one that got me running because before that I would always run and I'd get like a little crisp, like a stitch in my shoulder. It was always very uncomfortable. My dad and my mum actually, when we were younger, we'd always go on like family runs. It was never a very comfortable thing. And then Brian managed to talk me into doing the 10-K. He did the 10-K underwear.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:35:36) - Yeah. I mean, which well, if.
Holly Tucker (00:35:38) - Did you go from that to that?
Giovanna Fletcher (00:35:40) - Well, at first I thought she was asking me to do a marathon and I just had Max and I was like, I'm so like, I'd love to. But I do worry that my insides might fall out if I try and attempt a marathon. And she was like, oh, I totally understand. It is only a 10-K. She sent that through at a moment where I was just like, you know what? If it like, yeah, I'll do it. Like I absolutely do it. And I went through, really a training that I used to have after I had Max was like, you know, if you want to, you know, get back into anything. Here's my program that I've just created for running. And I was like, yeah, not right now. I'm still, you know, very much on the sofa eating biscuits. But when Briony asked, I was like, hey, I'm going to look at that.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:36:18) - And it was six weeks literally from starting from nothing to doing a 10-K run. So I was like, wow, I'm just going to go and do it. And so I think because I really built up in stages, like my first run was a ten minute, just ten minutes, just run, don't time it don't just run for ten minutes. When I tell you my lungs, they felt like they were going to explode, not just on that run, but the rest of the day. Like, I was like, I am not made to run like this. My body like, what is this? My lungs are on fire. Every time I was breathing in, talking to someone, I was like, yeah, the whole day.
Holly Tucker (00:36:50) - And they said, what did you do? And you went. Went for a run or how long? Ten minutes, ten minutes.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:36:55) - But the next time I went out, I was like that for half a day. And then the next time just a little bit off the run like it.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:37:01) - So it was what was fascinating to me was seeing how my body could recover from it, because everything, it was kind of like growing up. You exercise to punish your body so that you could go on a beach. You punished your body so that you could be getting the hipsters, you know? Yeah, getting those hipsters, you know, going that slinky dress on a night out, get the approval of other people. You were no one unless you had the approval of other people when you went out. Whereas now, hey, I don't I'm, I'm just it's all about my brain. When I go out there, you know, I get really red. I get really red apart from my tash, where my tash would be, where my tash would be if I. If I've waxed it off.
Holly Tucker (00:37:36) - Yeah. I was going to say come on that.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:37:39) - Whereas that always stays really white.
Holly Tucker (00:37:40) - How nice. Yes it's truly. Yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:37:44) - And you know I remember I'm.
Holly Tucker (00:37:46) - A beetroot girl as well.
Holly Tucker (00:37:47) - Yeah. And it takes me 2.5 hours to not be beaten down. I mean I guess embarrassed.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:37:52) - Sometimes if the postman comes and I'm still really red, I'm like, oh, I can remember Lorraine Kelly actually on, Jenny Faulkner's run pod saying, you know, you never see a happy runner. And I've got to disagree. I am such a when I see people, there's nothing like being out of the house. And I don't know whether it's because I do so much at my desk, really, if I'm not in. So I'm at my desk working, writing or doing podcast like stuff. So I'm so happy to be out and seeing people that I do have that grin like.
Holly Tucker (00:38:21) - You're the one I was. I thought you were going to say the opposite, as in, it is a myth that there are happy runners. And then I would disagree to say no, no, no. I do see those smug running bodies that were born to run and they just sort of. Oh, hang on.
Holly Tucker (00:38:38) - And my friend has an expression panty chat. That is if you're trying to chat. Yeah. And run. You've got panty chat. Yeah. And I'm like I look at people chatting while they're running. I'm like, how do you even. Do you mean.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:38:52) - Like, I just really felt like. I feel like the act of running isn't really a comfortable thing. Like we said at the end is the best bit. But when I'm over, like a couple of months ago, there's a run that happens right down and it goes past the end of our road. So me and the kids and Tom, we went out there and we were cheering everyone on and it was so good because like they come up this hill and then we're there and you know what they've done.
Holly Tucker (00:39:15) - You can feel it. You can feel.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:39:17) - Yeah. So we were there just cheering everyone on and it was amazing. I think when you are able to get into something like running and you're able to do group events, it's a it's a really good thing.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:39:28) - Parkruns are. Yeah. Amazing.
Holly Tucker (00:39:31) - Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I want to talk to you a little bit about your time on I'm A celebrity in 2020. It's about the biggest show you can do. You're smack bang in the public eye. Yeah. You're away from your family. You're on these tiny rations. You were taking part in these trials. It looked tough. What was your overarching thought of that experience?
Giovanna Fletcher (00:39:53) - I absolutely loved it. So I was, Well, we were in there obviously in 2020, at the end of the year, we'd had months and months of uncertainty, not being able to cuddle our parents, you know, just not knowing what was going to happen in life, you know. Yeah, I know, and.
Holly Tucker (00:40:09) - Amazing when you think back, isn't it. Yeah.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:40:12) - Yes.
Holly Tucker (00:40:13) - Like where we were in London we watched or was that actually real. Yeah.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:40:17) - Just really quite just a horrible year in so many ways, you know. So going in there and being able to actually interact with people that want in your family was quite magical.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:40:28) - What what always surprises me, though, is a lot of people think that to be especially on on that show. Well, don't you, you know, aren't you watch the whole time. Isn't that really, like, invasive? And, you know, weren't you worried that there's all those cameras? I feel like we are so accessible in everyday life, actually being in there, it was almost like putting up a door.
Holly Tucker (00:40:49) - Really.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:40:50) - And kind of going, I'm not here. Yes, yes.
Holly Tucker (00:40:53) - Why? How did you.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:40:54) - Phone's always.
Holly Tucker (00:40:55) - Pinging. Okay.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:40:56) - And if you don't reply, then someone wants you. Yes. Are you the only people?
Holly Tucker (00:40:59) - I didn't even think of it like that. Yeah.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:41:02) - And, you know, I there was definitely a point in the first few days where I was literally I caught, I caught sight, you know, when you kind of, you see yourself in your mind's eye, something hovering above yourself. And I thought, I am literally like a Julie Walters character right now.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:41:16) - I feel like I'm running around like the scullery maid, trying to do all of the jobs, trying to be really useful. and I think I was trying to keep myself busy. but when we're actually given jobs, that's when that kind of settled down a little bit more. But it was only when I was the audience voted me, leader. So I got to sit in a chair for four days and not do any of the tasks, not doing not task, any of the jobs. And it was amazing because it made me realise how often in life I put myself in the periphery. Yeah. So I can be there when my kids are having fun and having a laugh and you know, they're doing all this fun stuff together, but I'm not actually in it, by the sink washing up, or I'm doing the dishwasher or I'm doing the washing. So I'm there. I know where everyone's having a fun time, but I'm not in it in that, I mean, and yeah, to realising that I can't always be on the periphery and I don't want to always be on the periphery, like to place yourself in the fun or in the actual action more.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:42:10) - Yes.
Holly Tucker (00:42:11) - God, that's such a great observation. Tell me. So you obviously were then. You know, it was amazing. I think that your vulnerability, that's something that I think is just very, very empowering about you. And, and I'll talk about that in a moment. But you were then crowned, the queen of the castle. I mean, that's a nice title for you as well, isn't it? It's just incredible. But I want to come back if we can. Because to your story. Just because. Just coming back to the time that you left drama school, initially you were looking for acting roles, and it was your writing career that basically began to take off. And you've now written lots of books. You're a Sunday Times bestselling author. You've written friction. friction. Not friction. Friction. Little friction in your fiction, a trilogy with your husband, Tom. And of course, you're very honest and touching and wise parenting books. Were you surprised that it was the writing that kicked off and not.
Holly Tucker (00:43:12) - The acting.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:43:13) - I was, I grew up having my face in a book. Always. Like I was always that annoying person, you know, going to Sylvia's every day. I think what that gave me actually was time, you know? Yeah. Yeah, I had an hour and a half on my commute every day where I literally just would sit and read and, and I can remember starting to read sort of Jane Green and Dell Park books when I was 14 and just suddenly feeling like these women are flawed and they are like me. And, you know, they're not the teenage books that I'm used to. You used to reading and just suddenly feeling like, I know I just felt instantly better about myself and excited about life. And, and I just loved reading, and I never really thought that it was something, that writing was something that I could do. You know, I went to drama school. I pretended to be a penguin. I didn't expect to be signed by Penguin. you know, I just I liked that, like, I know I didn't think I had the skills.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:44:05) - My first book launch, actually, I gave everyone penguin onesies as all of my team. Yeah, I loved that. So they too could.
Holly Tucker (00:44:14) - Penguins like me. So good.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:44:17) - you know, I think we sort of, we, we tell ourselves in life that, you know. No, I've, I've, I've, I know how to do this. These are my skill set. And that requires a different skill set, so I can't go anywhere near it. But I loved reading. I loved creating characters, and I was out for because of the work that I used to do for heat magazine. I used to do their book reviews. And, I went and met Dorothy Coombs in one day, and, we were talking about writing in general, and she just said, you know, so many people say to me, I'd love to write a book when they find out that she's an author. You know, I'd love to write a book. And she said, she always advises, just do it, because unless you sit down and write, you don't know whether you actually are going to have whether you're going to like the actual artistry of writing, you know, the actual the fact that you've got to sit down and get the words out, you've got to plot all that stuff that comes with it.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:45:02) - So she was like, just sit down and write. And I was like, Just sit down and write like it's that. It's that that's that's the first hurdle, right? You can sit down and write, then you start it. and I remember just sitting down and writing and not really knowing if I was going to be any good at it or where it was going to go. And I'd met an amazing literary agent who still my agent now Hannah and, and she was always very much like, you know, if you want any advice, then, you know, just get in touch. But it was Hannah, really, who completely saw some potential there. You know, I'd been writing blogs at the time and writing little bits here and there. I'd done book reviews for heat magazine, kind of extended out a little bit into entertainment. I was interviewing like Gethin Jones and, and Phil Spencer, people like that and just having loads of fun with it. But actually, you know, Hannah was like, no, I think you've got a nice style that you could actually you could do this.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:45:57) - Gosh. so if it wasn't for her, kind of.
Holly Tucker (00:46:00) - Again, another sliding Doors moment. Yeah.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:46:02) - And it was all very much like, not that she wanted to sign me, but, you know, I think you could do it if you ever want any advice. And it was only when I actually started writing and sent her over a like, I think it was 16,000 words that she, kind of made that official, that she would like to sign me. But, you know, with all these things that that's never the end, is it? Because it's one thing to have an agent, but you need a publisher to believe in you? Yes. You know, that book was sent out to to many publishers before someone at Penguin saw it and was like, actually, yeah, let's let's do this. Yeah. Lovely. Claire Pelly yeah.
Holly Tucker (00:46:34) - Isn't that amazing? And one of your books, Happy Mum, Happy Baby was so popular, you launched your podcast with the same name. And I think the magic is that it's.
Holly Tucker (00:46:46) - I mean, it's just, again, it's you all over. It's so honest. It's relatable. It's real ups and downs of motherhood. And again, it's not the shift that we're seeing. You know, when we talk about. Yeah. Again, I'm just watching Steve Martin on that sofa with his wife. You know again how we are progressing in not only hopefully with body image, but also, you know, as you said, the ups and downs of motherhood. And I was just talking to someone just recently and they said something and I said, you know, Harry was three months old when I started, not in the high street. I used to have to hide him so we would have meetings. You're probably too young to remember, Mr. Brittas, but there was this programme, Mr. British and the reception lady had a baby. but she would have to hide it in the drawer, right. So the baby was always in the drawer and it was. Sounds really odd now, by the way.
Holly Tucker (00:47:39) - And but I was just talking to someone about the fact that actually I had to hide Harry, you know, because my nanny was sick, my husband worked. You couldn't say that. You're basically a mother. That was a thing that you could do. So I used to take Harry, put him under my. He wasn't, by the way, everybody three months old at this point, this story. But he was probably about three years old. Okay. And I put him under the desk with Wotsits, the old DVD player. Do you remember those big things? The headphones on. And I would, no joke, put like a cover thing here so I would just peer underneath. I pad it all up with my coats and everything and he would be under the desk. He was happy he got Ribena. What's it? I mean, how old is he now? He's 19 now.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:48:29) - Yeah. I mean, and he's his father.
Holly Tucker (00:48:31) - He's all right. No, he has no stunted growth.
Holly Tucker (00:48:33) - He likes it. He loves wotsit. Still, it's all good.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:48:36) - They're not triggering.
Holly Tucker (00:48:37) - It's not triggering at all. But it is incredible that, you know, that was, you know, not that long ago that I had to hide the fact I was a mother in business. I couldn't really ever talk about it, forget flex appeal or anything like that. So it's incredible what you've done. And I mean, your most famous mum, I think, correct me if I'm wrong. And our dear Catherine, what was that experience like talking to her? Because it was very clear that you got on very well. Yeah.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:49:08) - We've met a couple of times before that, because she was launching her big campaign where she wanted loads of people to do her survey. Yes. And we were looking at how we could use Happy Mum, Happy Baby as a device to get people talking about it. and originally it wasn't going to be with her. Then in one of the meetings, I sort of find out, but she maybe come on and chat.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:49:28) - Yeah. and her head of comms at the time said, maybe, you know, maybe five, ten minutes. But he didn't really think that, you know, she gets quite nervous about that sort of thing. And I was like, that's fine. And then I met her in Birmingham. It's a very weird thing when you are scheduled to meet a royal, because I was talking to a bunch of people, then all of a sudden they weren't there anymore and she was there.
Holly Tucker (00:49:50) - Eventually they just they just evaporated people out just like, oh.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:49:56) - There evaporated. And there she was. And that was a really interesting first meeting. You know, we were in the middle of a play centre, and I think I said something about how feral my three would be there. And she said the same about hers. And we talked very honestly about maternal mental health. I mentioned the statistic that is kind of the driving force behind Happy mum, her baby and that is that, the leading cause of death in new mums within the first year is suicide.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:50:24) - And so we spoke about that and obviously that is awful. And for mums to know they're not on their own when they're feeling certain thoughts is there. So such an important thing. so we instantly sort of spoke very deeply. I would say.
Holly Tucker (00:50:38) - Yes.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:50:38) - Yeah, yeah. And then we went into this bigger meeting with, you know, lots of different contributors who had been part of the survey coming together and stuff. And then the next thing I know is that we are going to get 45 minutes with her to record, and even then, that recording was meant to be with her. And then in the middle, we were going to cut away from her, go into, it's all going to be done in the edit, go into a chat with the experts who had put the survey together and stuff, talk about the whys and the ways and stuff, and then we'd go back to to Catherine. But we went into this recording with her and she knows her stuff. She knows her stuff. She has studied.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:51:17) - She cares. It was just the most, interesting chat, listening to her talk about the cause and why she was doing it and why it was so important, and then leading into the more personal stuff, which basically I, was asked, for a sort of an outline of, you know, what the direction of the podcast and stuff. And I wanted to send in like a, this is my wish list, kind of like, just put it in, let's put it in, like, let's make it like a baby episode.
Holly Tucker (00:51:44) - Yeah.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:51:44) - But we also do the, the stuff that they want us to do as well, because that way there's a, there's the best of both worlds. Yes. Because people are listeners are getting a happen my baby episode. And so I sent it in kind of like, you know, when you send something in and you just shut your eyes and see what happens and, her head of comms message and was like, look, I'm going to take this to her.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:52:04) - I don't know if she did Hypnobirthing I don't know if she's going to talk about leaving the hospital. I don't know if she's going to talk about morning sickness, but, you know, maybe one of those, and it turns out that she was briefed in, while she was being briefed, Prince William came into the room and he said to her, just say everything. Just just talk. And if you if at the end you don't want it in, we can ask for it to be cut out because obviously they get approval. Yes, yes, yes, there are certain guests that you just know that, you know, you're going to give that to. And so therefore the head of comms phoned me laughing and was like, yeah, she's going to talk about everything. And so going into that, knowing that that was going to be the case, you know, and I I don't know, I think that it's motherhood is a brilliant leveller in terms of the conversations, because there are some parts of it that we all experience.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:52:54) - You know, it doesn't matter who you are or what you have or what you do. And and that was, you know, when we started out, that was the massive thing that we always said, you know, there are so many parts of this carrying a child, delivering a child. As soon as you start realising your mother talking to another, you know, it does change. Change everything. And. Yeah, I mean, it was completely bizarre to be having that conversation. But what was more bizarre was a couple of weeks later when we then showed that to the royal reporters. So basically they were called into a room at Kensington Palace to listen because they weren't going to be sent out the episode because it was all under embargo. Yeah. So they weren't allowed to talk about it until a certain point. and I can remember them all being sat there with their notepads, kind of like writing things out. And then as soon as I asked the question, what was your childhood like? They all sort of stopped.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:53:43) - They were frantic, frantically writing down whatever notes they could Hypnobirthing I had men in there. They must have been in their 60s, turning around to each other and going, Hitler! What did she say? Hypno? What you like the the mad frenzy of I need these facts. Otherwise my editors gonna tell me what was it? What was it?
Holly Tucker (00:53:58) - What is it? You know.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:54:00) - And then at the, they did a, like a little question thing after, like a question and answer thing with me afterwards. And, I remember one of them just went, and who are you to me? And I was like, how fair.
Holly Tucker (00:54:12) - Point done that. I hope you're enjoying this first episode back. And my goodness, what a guest Giovanna is to open our 20th series of the podcast. I wanted to take this opportunity to say a huge thank you to our incredible partners, Dell Technologies. I've worked with them for several years now, and I can hand on hearts that not only do they truly believe in supporting small businesses, but they're genuinely the loveliest team to work with.
Holly Tucker (00:54:46) - Ultimately, Dell understands the many challenges that small businesses face at every single stage, from those very early days right through to scaling and growing. They also have two brilliant initiatives that are totally free for you. There's a Dell Women's Entrepreneur Network, or Dwn for short, which is a worldwide community of over 100,000 female founders, and they run free events and mentoring programs, and they have a network of brilliant women all connecting and sharing insights. And then there is Dell for startups, where founders will be matched with their very own advisor with scalable solutions, favorable pricing and discounts for members. In fact, they believe in supporting independence so much they are even giving away this very ad break, yes, right now to small businesses to share their own story and be discovered by our community of incredible listeners here. So next week it won't be me you hear from on this ad break, but a brilliant small business founder to tell you all about their brand. So if you're a founder yourself and you would like to be in with a chance to win your very own head break, you can find all the details over at Holy Cow forward slash Dell.
Holly Tucker (00:56:09) - Good luck. Now back to our conversations of inspiration with the wonderful Giovanna. Isn't it beautiful? As you said, it's a if you see it, if you recognize it, which obviously you do. People who have given birth have this absolute connection. It's like you can cut straight to the chase on something. It's a group bonded experience that actually really is very, very magical and connects us all. And I think you're just amazing. And she obviously felt so ease. This is again your superpower. It's so at ease at talking to you that you were going to look after whatever she told you and something else that you're involved in, which I also watch every single time you do it, is with Chris. And I've interviewed her here with Copperfield, and you've mentioned it before, and you're the patron of the charity, and that the helm of copper tracks, and you raise millions of pounds to try and help end the late diagnosis of breast cancer. And I watched some of your videos. I mean, I always watched them and it gave me goosebumps because there is so much, again, this connection that you create with people that they were all able to have this shared experience.
Holly Tucker (00:57:27) - And you go everywhere from the Himalayas to the Sahara. Yeah. What is it like on that journey? It looks highly emotional, actually. Yeah. And breathtaking all at the same time and exhausting all at the same time.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:57:40) - They are the most amazing things that I do. They are, you know, they are the highlight of my calendar. We used to only do one trek a year, and then when we went to Scotland because of Covid, we had to do a trek that we knew that we were going to be able to go ahead with. So we decided to stick to the UK. And the amount of people that still applied just blew us away. The amount of people who are were on active treatment or, you know, had, maybe just finished their treatment. And, what we realized going around on that trek was that sometimes traveling abroad just brings up different obstacles for people. And that's not necessarily people with a breast cancer diagnosis either. You know, sometimes traveling, getting on planes and being away from loved ones is just too much.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:58:23) - But certainly for the people that had been had had a breast cancer diagnosis, it was a case of travel insurance being through the roof or not being available. Yes. you know, being able to tap into the NHS, speak to their oncologist, those were really important things. And the CEO of Copperfield, Natalie, was on that trek with with us. And I just turned to Natalie one day and was like, why don't we just do two? Why don't we do two treks a year? We can do one in the UK and one one abroad, you know? Then we don't know if people are going to apply. We don't know if people don't want to do it. But what if, you know, we just especially since we get so many people applying as obviously as a charity, you don't want to turn people away when they say, I would like to walk for you and raise money so that you could do the important work that you do. So that's what we started doing. And every time I go on on one of these tracks, I'm blown away again and again and again.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:59:13) - I always think like, how? How does this happen? How do we because you're not recreating the same thing as before. You're just creating something that just ends up as beautiful as what came before it, because it's a whole different group of people. You've got different captains. Charity challenge, actually, who we run the treks with are phenomenal. And I think one of the one of the things I really love about these treks is that I go and I need to walk. That's it. You know, I walk and talk. I will have my breakfast made lunch. Oh, we all do. Not just me. I'm not being dairy. But you're in your.
Holly Tucker (00:59:46) - Chair that you sit in from the castle that you brought along with you.
Giovanna Fletcher (00:59:52) - This is for everyone. So, you know, all you've got to do is make sure you packed your day bag and you're wearing appropriate clothes and appropriate footwear, and you walk and you talk. And there is nothing more therapeutic than putting one foot in front of the other.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:00:04) - There's something about it that just it's like it eases your heart in some way, and it just kind of lets things out, you know? And the amount of checks, the amount of conversations I've had on these tracks that just literally they are they've just blown me away, you know, and people go on the treks for various reasons, whether it's a breast cancer diagnosis, turning 40 or 30, kind of having a big birthday, type thing about to get married. So I wanted to do one thing for them before they go into that next adventure, having had kids and kind of going, no, I want to reclaim myself. you know, having going through a divorce, there's loads of different reasons that make people want to sign up. And I always feel really lucky that we are then the charity that they decide to do it for. But to be honest, the thing that makes it so special time and time again is it's the trekkers. It's them, you know, and the fact that they are willing to raise money for such an important, charity.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:00:59) - So I think I don't know about you, but growing up, I thought that breast cancer was something that old women got, And that it was always a lump. Yeah. meeting Chris, I realized that I had been lied to for my entire life. Chris, had symptoms when she was 22. The first symptoms went to the doctor. I was told it was nothing at 20. She was told that she could go travelling. She was going travelling to India. She said she went off. at 23, she came back and, the symptoms were still there. I think she had, it changed slightly. I'm not sure if she had a bloody discharge at this point. but there was she was she was definitely in pain. So she went back to the doctor and it was a different doctor, but he was like, no, I agree with the first doctor. It's just hormonal. It's nothing. Don't worry about it. And then it took her mum, taking her up to the doctors and demanding, you should get a breast or breast screening, to make that move happen.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:01:53) - She got told she got breast cancer. She had breast cancer. A week later, she was told it was stage four. Who knows what would have happened had they caught that before the year before? Like who knows? And I know that, you know, it's a great big what if. And I know you know, Chris is here 15 years later and it's it's absolutely incredible. We had her funeral last year in June and, yeah, there's nothing more powerful than having your friend stand up on stage and, you know, say, I have loved my life and that I would not change a thing about it. You know, Chris, you know, she's made all these amazing connections and brought so many people together and created this incredible charity that is literally saving lives because of that breast cancer diagnosis. And, you know, I think we could we could very easily go, oh, it was just a one off. It's not something that happens. It does happen. It does happen. You know, we need to be checking our bodies and knowing our normal.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:02:53) - That's essentially it. Don't worry about the signs of symptoms. Know your normal. You know symptoms wise it's not just a lump. It's dimpling puckering inverted nipple, nipple discharge. Knowing that you're having to look up your collarbone and into your armpit, that's all breast tissue, and looking and feeling and, you know, so you're not just relying on touch, but also sites if they look different to what they normally look for, you, and then being a, an advocate for your own health, if you do find something like Chris sending out that message has saved lives and I know it has because we go on treks and we meet the people that it's changed the lives of. And actually, when we were in, on one of the tracks last year, we had someone come along and she was reporting on the trek for a TV show, and she was very heavily pregnant. And, three months later, we were in Mont Blanc and about to do a talk to everyone's kind of, gee, them up for the next day.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:03:52) - And I got a WhatsApp message from her, and, she just said, after I saw you that day, I went and checked myself, I found something, I went to the doctor. She was seven months pregnant when she when we met her, she got diagnosed with breast cancer. When at the point of messaging me, she'd had her little son, who was healthy and brilliant and gorgeous. she'd had surgery, and she was about to start treatment. Had she not been on that trek that day? Had we not been making that noise? Who knows? Because, again, the amount of women that are on these treks who were told it's hormonal, your body is changing because you're pregnant, it's a block milk duct. If you are unsure if you're not happy with that push, push because the the very worst is that you get a scan and it's nothing. But that's the best, right? That's the best.
Holly Tucker (01:04:42) - Absolute best apps. Oh gosh. I've actually had two people. Oh, I can't reach two people in the last couple of weeks being diagnosed with breast cancer in my friendship group.
Holly Tucker (01:04:53) - And it is just and zero symptoms, absolutely zero symptoms. It just I just can't even and again you go and get it checked. There's also there's lots of centers aren't there for a few hundred pounds as well that you can just literally go in and for a couple of hundred pounds get your breast scanned. And you know, the myth that we're meant to have these scans, you know, we get them on the NHS, don't we. Up to 50. Yeah. And actually in Europe it's 40. Really. In Europe it's 40. And it should be 40 here. Because actually when I speak to, luckily enough, I, you know, I've been able to afford some private medical appointments and she just literally said, you know, I'm going through I'm now at sort of the end of the perimenopause. And she said, Holly, have you had a breast scan? And I said, no. And she said, you're going to turn 47. I said, I know I haven't. And she said, why haven't you? And I said, because you do it at 50.
Holly Tucker (01:05:49) - And she's like, no, you have to do it from 40. Get your breasts scanned from 40. Even if you it's the sort of I'm so interested in the preventative ness of things. So actually, if at 40, I knew that maybe I would have saved up done that scan, I was in control of it, and then maybe I would book it in in two years time. And so that I wasn't waiting for someone to give me. Yeah. You know, the same as smears in a way. It's it's it's incredible. And I think it's the.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:06:19) - Preventative thing because.
Holly Tucker (01:06:20) - Why hasn't that happened? Like, I don't even understand it. Why aren't there companies that literally I go, okay, I've turned 40. What do I now need to do like between 40 and 55? Because they're quite fundamentally, you know, your hormones are changing. Everything's changing. I find it incredible. But there you go again. Sort of the lack of investment in women's health is crazy.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:06:43) - And you know what we are all fighting for is that early diagnosis.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:06:46) - Because the early the early diagnosis is early. Is that chance of survival.
Holly Tucker (01:06:50) - Absolutely. You are you know, that what you've done there with copper, it's actually incredible. And it doesn't surprise me because you're pretty incredible. And you have this beautiful way of unapologetically being yourself now. And it actually shines through in everything that you do. And and it's inspiring to witness someone embrace their authenticity with such, I would say, grace and confidence that you do. And I know it's not always been that way. Do you feel you are unreservedly who you are now, and what advice would you give to anyone listening about embracing those flaws? You know, you've you've spoken today about your body, you've spoken about your mind, you've spoken about being a mum. You spoke. There's a lot of people who won't be feeling that empowered as you are at the moment. Yeah. What would you say to them?
Giovanna Fletcher (01:07:45) - Well, you know what? For the first time ever, I've started to get I started getting therapy this year.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:07:50) - Right. And I think it's because I take a lot of stuff on, on the tracks on the podcast. So it's probably the first time that I've started, properly taking care of me. And I think, actually a lot of what I do is about making the other person feel safe and held. And actually, that is a place that I feel comfortable. I like making people feel comfortable. So I guess actually a lot of what I do is, is, is selfish in the way that I want the noise to go, because so often the noise of life distracts us from actually the human connection. Yes. you know, so I think a lot of that is, is me just kind of passing away the noise and actually getting to know that person. yeah. I guess getting rid of the noise is it's a massive thing. Thing for me and making about. Yeah. Who's in front of you and you.
Holly Tucker (01:08:40) - That would be your advice for other people in terms of being who they.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:08:44) - Are? Yeah, I think so.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:08:45) - I think so, you know, everyone's, different and, you know, or face different challenges. But I think if you are you and you're not trying to fit in with trends or doing things because you think you should, then ultimately you're going to be more and more true to yourself.
Holly Tucker (01:09:04) - And I think as we maybe get older, we'd become more confident to shut that noise down, to say, I don't participate in that or I'm not going to do that, or we talk. I talk a lot about, you know, technology and what it's done to us. And, you know, I was doing a thing about popcorn brain, and how basically that's what's happened in our lives is that our whole brain is almost started to rewire itself to the, you know, endorphin hits that we will get from social media and how we're not able to concentrate on things and all of these sorts of things. So it's it's amazing. And I just can't thank you enough, by the way, for sharing all of this today.
Holly Tucker (01:09:41) - It's just been such a pleasure. Before I ask you to read a letter, I wanted to ask you two questions. If this whole journey that you've been on, you know, we go back to the thorn bush, the rose bush, and we go to present day. if I use the analogy of a roller coaster, what would you say has been one of your biggest lows on this journey?
Giovanna Fletcher (01:10:05) - Oh, breaking my ankle on stage when I did 222. So, so after the Castle, a director friend of mine, Matthew Dunster, took a chance on me. Cue the ABBA song because, 222 had already been on, on on stage in London with Lily Allen. Yes. And they were doing the second cast and he asked me to go in and play Jenny. So take over from Lily. I can't tell you after years of, you know, people saying no, you know, not even talk about, you know, opening the door for me. They're not even letting me near the corridor of the door, you know? Just just no, no, no.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:10:40) - And so for him to sort of bring me into the party in such a massive way was such a wonderful moment. And, so I just absolutely, I adored it. I had absolutely I loved it. And then mid-show, you know, about a month or so into the run, I was I just went over on my ankle. It was so ridiculous. I was meant.
Holly Tucker (01:11:03) - To for no reason, just.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:11:04) - I was meant to put one foot down flat. It was a play. It's not even a musical. And I was wearing flat shoes. I was meant to put one foot down flat, and the other foot was meant to kick this little wooden thing to make it look like a. Knocked my knee, but that first foot didn't go down flat. It had already started rolling, so we had started rolling by the time I had lifted up the other foot and it just went and I carried on with the play. I remember coming up as though I remember. Were you in pain? So much pain I cannot even but I my neck.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:11:34) - So I it's meant to, I meant to act like I've hit my knee and my next line is, oh fucking hell, I hate those fucking doors. And I did it with such conviction, like.
Holly Tucker (01:11:44) - The best line of your life.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:11:46) - Yeah, that's really coming out. And then I had to keep talking to Elliot Cowan, who is playing Sam, my husband. And then we go to the sofa. We have an argument, and I'm across the stage and pick up these objects and walk off. And I remember the whole time I was having these chat kind of going, I don't know what's going to happen when I stand up. I honestly don't know what's going to happen. And I limped like a wounded animal across the stage, got those things limped off, and I can just remember feeling like if this show off in it, like if I take this boot off, this show is finished, I am not going to be able to carry on. Yeah. And I kept the boot on.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:12:21) - James Buckley blessing was just like, just breathe, just breathe, all right? Just breathe whilst trying to, you know, stage trying to put ice packs on the outside of my boot. But we went on, we finished it. And then, you know, it was that thing where everyone came to my dressing room after to see what was going to happen when I took this boot off and it just, like, felt like it swell. Swelled up straight away and I went to A&E. The silver lining, I've got to say, is that I, Rihanna, who was my understudy, we had made we had formed such a lovely friendship from day one, and I was so pleased for her that she was going to be able to get on as Jenny and have that run. I would that's one thing that was we spoke every day.
Holly Tucker (01:13:03) - Oh, but being.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:13:04) - In that hospital and having the doctor say, you know, I've got good news and I've got bad news, I still didn't find out what the good news was, to be honest.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:13:12) - What was the good news?
Holly Tucker (01:13:13) - It turned out.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:13:14) - But essentially, I, chipped a bone, ruptured, ligaments, overstretched another stuff. And, so it was actually really so I was basically put in an air boot. And that first week, I just that major fall, you know, of kind of I had everything that I ever dreamed of. Matthew had given me this amazing opportunity, and I totally I had ruined it. You know, my city feet had ruined it. That said, run away. The production company, Matthew, they were all just phenomenal with me. Matthew phoned me up straight away and he was like, look, you know, he was telling me about when he was an actor, he did the same thing, but in a tech rehearsal. So you didn't even get to do the play. Do the.
Holly Tucker (01:13:55) - Play.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:13:56) - So I had two weeks off, and the first week I was literally just like, I couldn't I was numb, I was totally numb. And then after another week and me sending different videos of me wearing different, kind of.
Holly Tucker (01:14:10) - Different on my.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:14:11) - Ankle, yeah, literally walking around the house like Quasimodo trying to work out a way of walking that seems natural on stage. Just they'd let me back. I basically bought an Airbnb online that was just shorter than. So it came like just a half way up my carve, and I spray painted it black, so it would be like my boot and my sock on the other foot, and I would walk around with that, but I wasn't allowed to take my boot off like I basically the first physio that I'd had. And I think it was because I was so desperate to get back. you know, he was like, it's this painful. I was like, no, no, no. And at this point I had had hadn't had the MRI. I was like, it's fine because I was expecting some pain. You know, I've had three kids, I know pain. It's fine, I was fine. and then when we got the MRI, results back, the physio foamy was like, put that boot on and do not take it off sleeping it you that need that foot needs to be left alone.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:15:03) - So without the boot I couldn't do anything. But I had two weeks off and then I was bouncing around stage like I didn't have an airbag on. And because of the show, because it's a ghost story, you know, and people are kind of looking for clues everywhere. Some people just thought it was a bit of a bit.
Holly Tucker (01:15:17) - Of a clue, bit of a red herring.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:15:20) - Some people didn't realise at all because it's not referenced, and I didn't have to slow my set down or I didn't have to slow my show down. but that was the that was the no.
Holly Tucker (01:15:29) - I need the conversely, what would you say is when the wind's in your hair?
Giovanna Fletcher (01:15:34) - Oh my gosh, the tracks, the tracks, there's nothing like it. In fact, when we were in Mont Blanc last year, there's a, there was an amazing moment where, so we've started doing on some of the treks, if people feel up to it, depending on how people are feeling about their bodies, we line the group up basically, and they take their tops off and they face the scenery.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:15:54) - So it's a beautiful shot of these women facing away from the camera with this amazing view. and after it, an amazing woman called Kaz, who has had treatment on both breasts, asked if she could have a photo on her own, and then she said something along the lines of she called herself Frankenstein's monster and. All these really negative, that horrible way of talking about herself. But she wanted to do this picture. And, Kelly, who is an amazing woman who treks with us and has her own breast cancer story, she literally guided cars through this picture, told her how to stand, where to place her knee, her hip, her hands and cars. You could just see her gaining confidence as we did this and as she was taking a photo, she just shouted out. Fuck it! And she turned around and did this. The most amazing photo celebrating her body. Like just literally it was just the most amazing thing. But the beautiful part was when she then brought her hands down to her face and there was this laughter of, I can't believe I've done that, but in the most, purest, most beautiful way ever.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:17:03) - And and for me, those tracks, having them mean so much to so many people. Building confidence, no matter how people's confidence has been knocked, that's just the ultimate high. I don't think.
Holly Tucker (01:17:16) - There'll be a dry eye after that story. I mean, what a what, what a privilege to see that just incredible.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:17:23) - When someone's feeling so, you know. Yeah. Just cancer is such a, you know, it's absolute twat. And what it does to people is just.
Holly Tucker (01:17:30) - Yeah, it's.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:17:32) - Awful. And Caz is, you know, when you're walking and talking with Caz, she's constantly making you laugh constantly. But there's, you know.
Holly Tucker (01:17:39) - All of that under what's going on in her mind and watch and see that self.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:17:44) - Fear of those scars and what they mean. And you know, just to be able to have that with her for a moment, you know, to know that in that moment that was gone, that was just, oh.
Holly Tucker (01:17:56) - What a beautiful moment. I'm going to ask you if you would share.
Holly Tucker (01:18:01) - Yes, a letter to your younger self. Okay. I hope.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:18:05) - This is okay.
Holly Tucker (01:18:05) - I reckon you might know what you're doing. I've got a funny feeling. I don't know what gives me that feeling, but I don't know what you're going to say. And I thank you so much for sharing a piece of your soul with us today.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:18:19) - Thank you. Okay. Dear me. Hello. It's me. I'll be honest. I'm a little worried about giving you too much advice or revealing too much about where we are in life. I've watched back to the future too many times and know the knock on effect any words might have. Just you. Reading this could wipe away the path from you to me, leaving all these words utterly useless anyway. But let's give it a go. Take a chance and see what happens. My biggest piece of advice, or maybe it's an observation, is that life happens in chapters. Each page of that chapter nudges you a bit, sometimes a lot, even if sometimes we think it knocks us to a standstill.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:18:58) - Know that that's never the case. We are always in motion. Life is always happening. Seconds keep passing and moments will come and go. Whatever is surrounding you right now will pass. It all passes. It all forces you to adapt, causes you to change. Do not fear the change you will change. People change. They should. Don't worry about the pondering. You can ponder. Ponder will always be worthwhile. I think sometimes too many things stop us from pondering, but really, there's fruit in the thought, magic and the ability to block out the noise of what we should be doing and sitting in the now, knowing we are always, as I said, moving forward, no matter if we're not conscious of it. Be cautious of who you give your time to. Saying yes to everyone simply robs you of time for you. So think of your time wisely before saying yes to everyone because you never like to say no. Think what will the cost of this be? Sometimes would it be small? Just a few minutes of your devotion.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:20:01) - Other times the cost might be pushing you into overwhelm or burnout. So know that you don't always have to say yes. You have the ability to say no. You owe it to yourself to use that word as often as you care to. You've always led from the heart, and I'm pleased to tell you that at the point of writing this, we still do that. Treat others how you wish to be treated. Know that not everyone will like you and that is fine. I know I'm brushing over that, but really it is okay for people not to like you. That doesn't mean you've done anything wrong. But don't pay those people any extra thought. Shrug them off and continue spreading that love and friendship to those who value and deserve you and your time. Okay, I don't think I've said too much or anything that will alter our past or future. Just do you. Be you. Everyone else is taken.
Holly Tucker (01:20:49) - Oh.
Holly Tucker (01:20:50) - Just brilliant. Was that just you and just you? I mean, what how lucky are we that we've had this time with you? And just that you show us exactly what it is to be a confident, you, you know, and it's how fun your letters says that, you know, it's what I feel so much.
Holly Tucker (01:21:13) - And when I follow you for that, we act as if we know each other. You know, if you follow someone. But when I do, and I look at what you're doing, you've got a heart of gold. And you deserve absolutely everything that comes your way. All the happiness it really is. We need more women like you. And I think that you, being so vulnerable today, will will help nudge us all in the right direction. And I really have enjoyed so much spending time with you. So thank you so much for being on my podcast. Thank you.
Giovanna Fletcher (01:21:42) - I've absolutely loved it. Thank you very, very much.
Holly Tucker (01:21:47) - Thank you for joining me today. If you've enjoyed this episode, can I ask that you share it with a friend and like, subscribe and review it too so that together we can inspire even more people to follow their dreams, to build a life they love.