1 00:00:53,799 --> 00:00:56,869 JAMES GRASBY : Hello and welcome to the National Trust Podcast. 2 00:00:56,869 --> 00:01:01,220 Today to celebrate the BBC TV series, Hidden Treasures of the 3 00:01:01,229 --> 00:01:04,889 National Trust, we're sharing a classic story from our podcast 4 00:01:04,919 --> 00:01:08,559 125 treasures presented by Alison Steadman. 5 00:01:08,569 --> 00:01:12,510 In this episode, we travel to the Gardens Of Kingston Lacy in 6 00:01:12,519 --> 00:01:17,529 Dorset to discover a 30 ft tall ancient Egyptian antiquity. The 7 00:01:17,540 --> 00:01:22,169 Philae Obelisk. A closer look at this artefact reveals a curious 8 00:01:22,180 --> 00:01:25,239 inscription which helped Egyptologists to unlock a 9 00:01:25,250 --> 00:01:28,550 mystery which had remained unsolved for millennia. 10 00:01:36,449 --> 00:01:39,470 ALISON STEADMAN: We're in Dorset on the south coast of England 11 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:44,019 looking out to sea. If we turn around and begin walking inland, 12 00:01:44,410 --> 00:01:47,680 we pass through farms and expanses of crops until 13 00:01:47,690 --> 00:01:52,690 eventually the terrain changes. And we reach formal gardens and 14 00:01:52,699 --> 00:01:57,930 the striking site of a lavish family home. This is Kingston 15 00:01:57,940 --> 00:02:01,720 Lacy, whose land stretches right down to the Dorset coast. 16 00:02:04,620 --> 00:02:08,899 There's a wild garden, a Japanese garden and a cedar walk 17 00:02:09,139 --> 00:02:13,690 planted with seeds that Kingston Lacy's intrepid former owner 18 00:02:13,699 --> 00:02:17,960 collected whilst in the holy land. Indeed, this former owner 19 00:02:17,970 --> 00:02:23,259 traveled far and wide during his time and his travels even helped 20 00:02:23,270 --> 00:02:28,690 to unlock the secrets of an ancient civilization. I'm Alison 21 00:02:28,699 --> 00:02:34,429 Steadman and this is 125 Treasures, a podcast from the 22 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:39,610 National Trust. Episode three, The Needle On the Lawn. 23 00:02:43,020 --> 00:02:45,770 CATHERINE SHARP: I'm standing in the park to the north of 24 00:02:45,779 --> 00:02:51,250 Kingston Lacy house. I am surrounded by green pasture, 25 00:02:51,250 --> 00:02:53,160 trees dotted around me. 26 00:02:53,330 --> 00:02:55,660 ALISON STEADMAN: This is Catherine Sharp, Cultural 27 00:02:55,669 --> 00:03:00,110 Heritage curator at the National Trust. She looks after Kingston 28 00:03:00,119 --> 00:03:00,750 Lacy. 29 00:03:01,029 --> 00:03:04,570 CATHERINE SHARP: And turning to the house as stately homes go. 30 00:03:04,580 --> 00:03:09,429 It's quite a, a small house, but it certainly has a presence in 31 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:15,009 this landscape. Rising from each corner are tall chimneys and 32 00:03:15,020 --> 00:03:19,399 projecting from the entrance is a port cochere or a covered 33 00:03:19,410 --> 00:03:27,679 entrance porch. 34 00:03:27,679 --> 00:03:31,509 And entering the house now, coming into the magnificent 35 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:36,339 entrance hall, inside it had to make a big impact and this hall 36 00:03:36,350 --> 00:03:42,050 certainly does. It has a marble floor and a great arch in front 37 00:03:42,059 --> 00:03:44,669 of you directly opposite the front door with steps. 38 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,059 ALISON STEADMAN: Much of what we see in the house today. From the 39 00:03:49,070 --> 00:03:52,660 marble staircase to the extensive collection of Spanish 40 00:03:52,669 --> 00:03:57,309 paintings is thanks to Kingston Lacy's former owner, William 41 00:03:57,320 --> 00:03:58,289 John Bankes. 42 00:03:59,259 --> 00:04:04,919 Born in 1786 William was an explorer, architect and 43 00:04:04,929 --> 00:04:08,979 socialite, moving in circles that included famous poets, 44 00:04:08,990 --> 00:04:13,070 artists, and even the Prime Minister. He was an avid 45 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:16,250 collector, but his most impressive artifacts were 46 00:04:16,260 --> 00:04:20,329 acquired in an attempt to understand an ancient society 47 00:04:20,459 --> 00:04:21,799 that captivated him. 48 00:04:22,850 --> 00:04:25,309 CATHERINE SHARP: And now entering the servants' hall. 49 00:04:25,619 --> 00:04:29,609 It's now set up as the exhibition room for the Egyptian 50 00:04:29,619 --> 00:04:33,480 collection accumulated by William John Bankes. 51 00:04:35,489 --> 00:04:39,779 It's making use of alcoves in the room as display cases and 52 00:04:39,790 --> 00:04:44,220 there are some really amazing things in here. I think probably 53 00:04:44,230 --> 00:04:50,450 what strikes me most of all are the graven tablets. They were 54 00:04:50,459 --> 00:04:54,640 made by workmen who were working on the tombs in the valley of 55 00:04:54,649 --> 00:04:55,649 the kings. 56 00:04:56,529 --> 00:04:58,989 ALISON STEADMAN: This is the largest private display of 57 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:00,890 Egyptian relics in the UK. 58 00:05:03,850 --> 00:05:07,510 CATHERINE SHARP: William John Bankes' most famous artefact 59 00:05:07,519 --> 00:05:12,070 from his travels in Egypt isn't in this exhibition room with the 60 00:05:12,079 --> 00:05:12,579 others. 61 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:21,970 I'm climbing the stairs to the library and the library has a 62 00:05:21,980 --> 00:05:26,130 very different feel. I think you can tell it has a plush carpet, 63 00:05:26,420 --> 00:05:30,279 what a difference from the marble floors. And it's here 64 00:05:30,290 --> 00:05:33,459 from the library window that I can see the jewel of William 65 00:05:33,470 --> 00:05:38,170 John Banks' Egyptian collection. It's outside and it's very large 66 00:05:38,179 --> 00:05:41,279 and it stands at the end of a long path on the south lawn. 67 00:05:44,029 --> 00:05:46,790 I'm going to walk down the path towards it. 68 00:05:51,829 --> 00:05:58,290 It's a very tall piece of stone. It's made of pink granite and 69 00:05:58,299 --> 00:06:01,059 it's like a pillar tapering towards the top with a square 70 00:06:01,070 --> 00:06:08,380 section and it stands on some stone steps and it just reaches 71 00:06:08,390 --> 00:06:09,970 up into the sky. 72 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,790 ALISON STEADMAN: Standing at 9m in height, this is the Philae 73 00:06:20,170 --> 00:06:20,989 Obelisk. 74 00:06:23,690 --> 00:06:27,660 You may have seen other famous obelisks, Cleopatra's Needle in 75 00:06:27,670 --> 00:06:31,410 London, for example, or the Washington Monument in America. 76 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:36,029 But unlike those, the Philae Obelisk held the key to 77 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,820 unraveling a mystery that had perplexed society and scholars 78 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:41,309 for hundreds of years. 79 00:06:42,519 --> 00:06:46,799 And it all starts in 1813, when Bankes decide to take an 80 00:06:46,809 --> 00:06:50,440 eight-year gap year traveling through Europe and the Middle 81 00:06:50,450 --> 00:06:59,459 East. In 1815, he then went to Egypt. Anne Seba wrote a 82 00:06:59,470 --> 00:07:01,750 biography of William John Banks. 83 00:07:01,859 --> 00:07:07,790 When he went to Upper Egypt and Palmyra and Syria, he went in 84 00:07:07,799 --> 00:07:13,029 small bursts and then would come back. And of course, he had a 85 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:18,250 classical education. He was very well educated, he spoke Greek. 86 00:07:18,260 --> 00:07:23,519 CATHERINE SHARP: Egypt had been ruled by the Greeks for many 87 00:07:23,529 --> 00:07:28,790 centuries. And so Greek, as well as the hieroglyphics that they 88 00:07:28,799 --> 00:07:35,429 couldn't yet understand was a language that could inform his 89 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:36,820 studies in Egypt. 90 00:07:37,390 --> 00:07:40,359 ALISON STEADMAN: Egypt had been changing fast. 91 00:07:40,989 --> 00:07:45,119 CATHERINE SHARP: Napoleon had invaded Egypt. Ultimately, his 92 00:07:45,130 --> 00:07:49,720 campaign in Egypt did not succeed. But what had happened 93 00:07:49,730 --> 00:07:55,269 was that information about Egypt was disseminating throughout 94 00:07:55,279 --> 00:08:00,250 Europe and it was becoming a very exciting place to be. So 95 00:08:00,380 --> 00:08:05,450 for William John, a young British man with a lot of money, 96 00:08:06,269 --> 00:08:11,750 it was like entering Aladdin's cave. And at the same time, you 97 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:16,959 see, this was a period when scholars were trying to decipher 98 00:08:16,970 --> 00:08:18,679 the ancient texts. 99 00:08:18,899 --> 00:08:23,010 ANNE SEBBA: The rosetta stone had just been brought back to 100 00:08:23,019 --> 00:08:28,274 England as well. And the rosetta stone was something that really 101 00:08:28,285 --> 00:08:33,575 excited Victorians as to how they would decipher what was on 102 00:08:33,585 --> 00:08:38,114 the rosetta stone. And there was a race really between the French 103 00:08:38,525 --> 00:08:42,224 who were being led by a scholar called Champollion and the 104 00:08:42,234 --> 00:08:45,924 British who are being led by a scholar called Thomas Young. 105 00:08:46,364 --> 00:08:48,835 ALISON STEADMAN: No one understood if hieroglyphic 106 00:08:48,844 --> 00:08:52,895 script recorded a language or whether it was just a series of 107 00:08:52,905 --> 00:08:57,200 picture symbols which were used instead of words, it was a 108 00:08:57,210 --> 00:09:00,969 locked language for which no one could find the key. 109 00:09:05,250 --> 00:09:09,719 The rosetta stone contained the same text in multiple languages 110 00:09:09,859 --> 00:09:14,590 including hieroglyphics. So was commonly seen as the best chance 111 00:09:14,599 --> 00:09:18,609 of creating a method of translation. It was one of a 112 00:09:18,619 --> 00:09:22,419 number of objects which had been taken out of Egypt and sent to 113 00:09:22,429 --> 00:09:27,320 Europe for study. But William John Bankes was initially 114 00:09:27,330 --> 00:09:30,349 content with the sketches and drawings of artefacts. He came 115 00:09:30,359 --> 00:09:30,919 across. 116 00:09:33,820 --> 00:09:38,000 ANNE SEBBA: At one point when he was inside a temple at Abu 117 00:09:38,059 --> 00:09:42,359 Simbel, instead of tearing down some of the tablets on the 118 00:09:42,369 --> 00:09:48,510 walls, he worked painstakingly in great heat copying. So he 119 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:52,820 wasn't the sort of collector who was in a hurry who just wanted 120 00:09:52,830 --> 00:09:56,900 to tear everything down and, and send it home to England. 121 00:10:00,929 --> 00:10:03,570 CATHERINE SHARP: I think what distinguishes William John is 122 00:10:03,580 --> 00:10:08,539 the fact that he was so passionate. He was intent on 123 00:10:08,549 --> 00:10:13,140 copying everything he saw. He was a good, good draftsman and 124 00:10:13,150 --> 00:10:16,250 watercolourist. And even though he couldn't understand 125 00:10:16,260 --> 00:10:20,619 everything he saw, he faithfully copied it. And this is so 126 00:10:20,630 --> 00:10:25,320 important because a lot of what he saw on his trip in the early 127 00:10:25,330 --> 00:10:27,900 19th Century has since been lost. 128 00:10:30,820 --> 00:10:33,369 ALISON STEADMAN: Banks, wanted to see everything and copy it 129 00:10:33,380 --> 00:10:38,000 down. His incredible energy amazed the people he was with. 130 00:10:38,380 --> 00:10:44,369 He never stopped and he scarcely slept. For his trip in Egypt, he 131 00:10:44,380 --> 00:10:46,679 had kitted out a grand barge. 132 00:10:48,099 --> 00:10:52,400 ANNE SEBBA: They went up the Nile and that really was where 133 00:10:52,409 --> 00:10:57,289 Bankes discovered all sorts of intriguing objects. 134 00:10:57,500 --> 00:11:00,219 CATHERINE SHARP: The Nile is the main artery of Egypt, but on the 135 00:11:00,229 --> 00:11:04,440 Nile are a number of cataracts which like waterfalls and then 136 00:11:04,450 --> 00:11:08,679 stretches of river. In one of these stretches is the Isle Of 137 00:11:08,690 --> 00:11:13,140 Philae. On this island was the Temple of Isis. 138 00:11:14,229 --> 00:11:17,059 ALISON STEADMAN: This was a very impressive collection of ruins, 139 00:11:17,409 --> 00:11:20,599 but it was what had once flanked the entrance to the Temple of 140 00:11:20,609 --> 00:11:22,969 Isis that intrigued Bankes the most. 141 00:11:24,140 --> 00:11:27,849 ANNE SEBBA: He discovered an obelisk at Philae that had 142 00:11:27,859 --> 00:11:33,909 submerged into the water. It dates from the 14th Century BC. 143 00:11:33,919 --> 00:11:37,359 CATHERINE SHARP: It was a very important temple. It was a very 144 00:11:37,369 --> 00:11:41,729 beautiful and large temple. And when William Bankes and his 145 00:11:41,739 --> 00:11:44,919 party arrived on the island they spent several days there 146 00:11:45,619 --> 00:11:50,510 sketching, of course, sketching and drawing. William John saw 147 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:55,109 the list and instantly wanted it. He he knew it was important. 148 00:11:55,630 --> 00:11:58,150 ALISON STEADMAN: A series of inscriptions on the obelisk 149 00:11:58,159 --> 00:12:00,169 immediately caught Bankes' Eye. 150 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:05,940 ANNE SEBBA: This really is what Bankes' reputation depended on, 151 00:12:05,940 --> 00:12:12,020 this obelisk, because it had hieroglyphs. And at the base, it 152 00:12:12,030 --> 00:12:14,219 had Greek language. 153 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:21,520 CATHERINE SHARP: The shaft is adorned with hieroglyphics on 154 00:12:21,530 --> 00:12:24,820 the base. There is an inscription in ancient Greek. 155 00:12:26,179 --> 00:12:28,609 Now, William John could read ancient Greek, but he couldn't 156 00:12:28,619 --> 00:12:31,380 read hieroglyphics. In fact, nobody could. 157 00:12:32,099 --> 00:12:33,979 ALISON STEADMAN: From the drawings that Banks did. Whilst 158 00:12:33,989 --> 00:12:37,409 on the island of Philae, he was able to make a startling 159 00:12:37,419 --> 00:12:38,219 discovery. 160 00:12:38,229 --> 00:12:39,909 CATHERINE SHARP: One of the things that he was able to 161 00:12:39,919 --> 00:12:45,460 recognise in the hieroglyphics was a name in a cartouche which 162 00:12:45,469 --> 00:12:51,570 he saw was Cleopatra. And another name came up which was 163 00:12:51,580 --> 00:12:56,450 Ptolemy. A cartouche is like a sort of surrounding border. 164 00:12:56,989 --> 00:13:02,599 And in hieroglyphics, royal names are surrounded by borders. 165 00:13:02,609 --> 00:13:06,440 It's, it is like giving them a capital letter. He was able to 166 00:13:06,450 --> 00:13:10,530 recognize that even though he couldn't decipher what he was 167 00:13:10,539 --> 00:13:13,969 reading, he was able to guess that that's what he saw. 168 00:13:14,169 --> 00:13:16,650 ALISON STEADMAN: He knew it was an important find. 169 00:13:16,770 --> 00:13:20,760 CATHERINE SHARP: Which I think is why he was very keen to get 170 00:13:20,770 --> 00:13:26,270 his drawing of the obelisk to London circulating to his friend 171 00:13:26,450 --> 00:13:31,549 Young, who was working hard on inscriptions at that time. And I 172 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:34,599 think it also made him very conscious of the need to be 173 00:13:34,609 --> 00:13:39,460 accurate. He was disorganized, he was a bit slapdash in this 174 00:13:39,469 --> 00:13:46,349 respect. He was absolutely conscientious. He got the thing 175 00:13:46,359 --> 00:13:46,859 right. 176 00:13:48,239 --> 00:13:51,320 ALISON STEADMAN: And now he was faced with the huge task of how 177 00:13:51,330 --> 00:13:54,219 to get this enormous object back to Dorset. 178 00:13:55,330 --> 00:13:57,880 ANNE SEBBA: Bankes was the sort of man who responded to a 179 00:13:57,890 --> 00:14:01,469 challenge. Here was a challenge. He knew that it would be 180 00:14:01,479 --> 00:14:07,159 extraordinary in Kingston Lacy in the grounds of Dorset to have 181 00:14:07,169 --> 00:14:10,690 an ancient Egyptian obelisk. 182 00:14:10,690 --> 00:14:12,859 ALISON STEADMAN: At this time, as part of the governor of 183 00:14:12,869 --> 00:14:16,830 Egypt's drive to give its art culture and ancient wonders more 184 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,830 prominence outside the Ottoman Empire, Bankes was supported in 185 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,070 his quest to transport the obelisk back to his home in 186 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,599 England. But this was not a quest he could take on alone. 187 00:14:27,979 --> 00:14:31,979 ANNE SEBBA: One of the people that Bankes had with him was a 188 00:14:31,989 --> 00:14:38,440 former circus strongman, Giovanni Belzoni. And Belzoni 189 00:14:38,450 --> 00:14:43,489 was actually an engineer. When Bankes couldn't stay, he asked 190 00:14:43,500 --> 00:14:48,109 Belzoni to stay on and try and work out how to bring the 191 00:14:48,119 --> 00:14:49,700 obelisk back to England. 192 00:14:51,859 --> 00:14:55,049 CATHERINE SHARP: They had to roll it onto a boat. If you 193 00:14:55,059 --> 00:14:58,000 imagine it's on an island, there's a body of water. It's 194 00:14:58,010 --> 00:15:01,679 got to go onto a boat and they constructed a kind of wooden 195 00:15:01,690 --> 00:15:05,390 pier, but it wasn't strong enough. And the obelisk fell 196 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:06,250 into the Nile. 197 00:15:11,349 --> 00:15:14,640 ANNE SEBBA: They lifted it and had to watch it plunge back into 198 00:15:14,650 --> 00:15:15,679 the waters. 199 00:15:16,549 --> 00:15:18,880 ALISON STEADMAN: The sheer weight of the massive granite 200 00:15:18,890 --> 00:15:23,799 slab smashes its wooden rollers and amid much panic and shouting 201 00:15:23,979 --> 00:15:31,229 the precious cargo slides under the water. You can just picture 202 00:15:31,239 --> 00:15:35,330 Belzoni face watching this priceless remnant from history 203 00:15:35,340 --> 00:15:40,770 sinking into the Nile, the future of the obelisk and the 204 00:15:40,780 --> 00:15:44,530 invaluable detail of its inscription now hung in the 205 00:15:44,539 --> 00:15:45,140 balance. 206 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,780 Belzoni and his men got to work to secure the obelisk and try 207 00:15:49,789 --> 00:15:54,619 against all odds to rescue it from the Nile. With gargantuan 208 00:15:54,630 --> 00:15:58,380 effort they hauled the obelisk out of the water. 209 00:16:04,460 --> 00:16:10,229 ANNE SEBBA: Eventually Belzoni was able to get it onto another 210 00:16:10,239 --> 00:16:11,070 barge. 211 00:16:11,340 --> 00:16:16,119 CATHERINE SHARP: And it finally arrived in Deptford. In 1821 212 00:16:16,330 --> 00:16:20,510 ANNE SEBBA: Sixteen horses were employed over a period of four 213 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:24,369 days to bring it back to Kingston Lacy. 214 00:16:24,380 --> 00:16:26,909 CATHERINE SHARP: It was a very awkward piece of stone to move. 215 00:16:27,500 --> 00:16:29,679 But William John was determined. 216 00:16:29,690 --> 00:16:32,630 ANNE SEBBA: You know, it was a major undertaking. So that's one 217 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:37,000 of the reasons why, why Bankes became so well known in England. 218 00:16:38,159 --> 00:16:41,010 ALISON STEADMAN: Another reason was he's recognizing the names 219 00:16:41,020 --> 00:16:44,859 of Ptolemy and Cleopatra that would turn out to be vital in 220 00:16:44,869 --> 00:16:47,010 the cracking of the hieroglyphic code. 221 00:16:47,349 --> 00:16:50,340 CATHERINE SHARP: His transcription of what was on the 222 00:16:50,349 --> 00:16:53,400 obelisk, in spite of the fact, he didn't understand what he was 223 00:16:53,409 --> 00:17:00,750 drawing was as accurate as it could possibly be. And his work 224 00:17:00,929 --> 00:17:07,030 was used by leading scholars of the day to help them to decipher 225 00:17:08,198 --> 00:17:10,119 the ancient texts. 226 00:17:10,678 --> 00:17:14,818 ALISON STEADMAN: After receiving copies in 1822 of Bankes' and 227 00:17:14,828 --> 00:17:18,448 Thomas Young's work on the Philae Obelisk, the French 228 00:17:18,458 --> 00:17:21,938 scholar Jean-Francois Champollion made a breakthrough. 229 00:17:22,109 --> 00:17:24,659 ANNE SEBBA: Everybody thought at that point, if you can work out 230 00:17:24,668 --> 00:17:27,759 what the picture represents, you'll get there. But 231 00:17:27,769 --> 00:17:32,229 Champollion won the race because he understood that the 232 00:17:32,239 --> 00:17:36,659 hieroglyphs actually were used to create a sound. 233 00:17:37,459 --> 00:17:39,239 ALISON STEADMAN: He dashed into his brother's office, 234 00:17:39,250 --> 00:17:44,439 exclaiming "je tiens l'affaire, I've got it!" before promptly 235 00:17:44,449 --> 00:17:47,800 collapsing and taking to his bed for five days. 236 00:17:47,810 --> 00:17:51,760 CATHERINE SHARP: He obviously had used Bankes' texts as well 237 00:17:51,770 --> 00:17:54,640 because the scholars weren't the travellers, they weren't the 238 00:17:54,650 --> 00:17:55,609 explorers. 239 00:17:55,609 --> 00:17:57,829 ALISON STEADMAN: Armed with the context of what had now been 240 00:17:57,839 --> 00:18:01,959 learned from the obelisk among other artefacts, Champollion was 241 00:18:01,969 --> 00:18:05,920 able to decipher the names Ptolemy and Cleopatra on the 242 00:18:05,930 --> 00:18:10,469 rosetta stone and working from the stone began to translate 243 00:18:10,479 --> 00:18:12,239 hieroglyphics in earnest. 244 00:18:12,670 --> 00:18:15,930 This helped provide even more information about the obelisk 245 00:18:15,939 --> 00:18:21,890 itself and its full inscription could now be read. 246 00:18:21,890 --> 00:18:24,910 CATHERINE SHARP: The hieroglyphics, pointing up into 247 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:30,060 the sky quite appropriately, represent a homage to the 248 00:18:30,069 --> 00:18:36,979 Egyptian royal family. Whereas the ancient Greek at the base 249 00:18:37,939 --> 00:18:44,920 recounts the fact that by their great benevolence, the king 250 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:49,380 absolved the priests at the temple of Isis from which this 251 00:18:49,390 --> 00:18:53,619 came on the island of Philae from having to pay tax because 252 00:18:53,630 --> 00:18:55,319 it was crippling them. 253 00:18:56,469 --> 00:18:59,920 And they wanted to show in Greek which was the language of 254 00:18:59,930 --> 00:19:03,439 authority at the time that they didn't have to pay tax. 255 00:19:04,650 --> 00:19:08,089 ALISON STEADMAN: Champollion's discovery opened up a new world, 256 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,750 unlocking secrets of Ancient Egypt that had remained a 257 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:16,079 mystery for centuries. Champollion talked up his own 258 00:19:16,089 --> 00:19:20,540 discoveries. He became famous and he and the rosetta stone had 259 00:19:20,550 --> 00:19:25,089 their names etched into posterity. He pointedly refused 260 00:19:25,099 --> 00:19:28,900 to acknowledge the significance of Bankes' vital work. 261 00:19:30,670 --> 00:19:35,530 Bankes and the Philae Obelisk remain unsung heroes in the 262 00:19:35,540 --> 00:19:38,569 story of the cracking of the hieroglyphic code. 263 00:19:40,780 --> 00:19:44,880 But back home in England Bankes did become everybody's favorite 264 00:19:44,890 --> 00:19:45,729 dinner guest. 265 00:19:45,969 --> 00:19:51,250 ANNE SEBBA: He was in demand as a an explorer, as a storyteller, 266 00:19:51,250 --> 00:19:55,430 as a very entertaining man about town. 267 00:19:55,500 --> 00:19:58,280 ALISON STEADMAN: Bankes' attention turned away from Egypt 268 00:19:58,290 --> 00:19:59,439 and exploration. 269 00:19:59,890 --> 00:20:03,989 ANNE SEBBA: Once he inherited the house in 1834 his interest 270 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:08,280 really changed to architecture. And to Kingston Lacy. 271 00:20:08,790 --> 00:20:12,449 CATHERINE SHARP: He employed an architect called Charles Barry, 272 00:20:12,530 --> 00:20:17,170 well known for the Houses Of Parliament who by 1835 had 273 00:20:17,180 --> 00:20:21,180 become very famous. Although William had first met him in 274 00:20:21,189 --> 00:20:25,880 Egypt before he was ever an architect. It was a box in which 275 00:20:25,890 --> 00:20:28,050 William John could put his treasures. 276 00:20:28,060 --> 00:20:32,599 And there were many. And quite apart from the Egyptian ones, 277 00:20:32,609 --> 00:20:35,729 there were all the things he collected on his travels in 278 00:20:35,739 --> 00:20:42,479 Spain and Italy, many many paintings, Spanish paintings and 279 00:20:42,489 --> 00:20:47,760 the decoration of the house absolutely minutely orchestrated 280 00:20:47,770 --> 00:20:48,439 by William John. 281 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,510 ALISON STEADMAN: But Banks would not be allowed to enjoy growing 282 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:56,709 old in his magnificent creation. He was gay and lived in a time 283 00:20:56,719 --> 00:21:00,630 when homosexual acts were illegal. This would tear his 284 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:01,540 life apart. 285 00:21:01,939 --> 00:21:05,579 ANNE SEBBA: I think Bankes' homosexuality doesn't really 286 00:21:05,589 --> 00:21:11,430 come to the fore until he's charged with indecent exposure 287 00:21:11,439 --> 00:21:13,069 in 1833. 288 00:21:13,239 --> 00:21:16,810 CATHERINE SHARP: Luckily he had friends who helped him get off 289 00:21:16,819 --> 00:21:17,709 the charges. 290 00:21:18,420 --> 00:21:21,949 ALISON STEADMAN: But eight years later, at the age of 55 he was 291 00:21:21,959 --> 00:21:22,949 caught again. 292 00:21:22,949 --> 00:21:26,719 ANNE SEBBA: And this time he was caught in flagrante in Green 293 00:21:26,729 --> 00:21:33,160 Park with another soldier and he was arrested immediately. And 294 00:21:33,170 --> 00:21:37,719 this time, he was charged with the much more serious indecent 295 00:21:37,729 --> 00:21:41,199 assault, a crime for which men were hanged. 296 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,209 ALISON STEADMAN: And this time, he couldn't rely on friends in 297 00:21:44,219 --> 00:21:46,599 high places to get him off the charges. 298 00:21:46,709 --> 00:21:48,810 CATHERINE SHARP: He would have been made an outlaw. Outlaws 299 00:21:48,819 --> 00:21:51,770 could have all their properties seized by the government. He 300 00:21:51,780 --> 00:21:57,270 didn't want that to happen. So in 1841 he signed all his 301 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:01,349 property over to his younger brother and fled into exile in 302 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:02,069 Venice. 303 00:22:04,579 --> 00:22:08,160 By doing that he managed to ensure that the Kingston Lacy 304 00:22:08,170 --> 00:22:12,680 lands, all his lands remained in the family and were not seized. 305 00:22:13,810 --> 00:22:17,430 But what a tragedy for a man who'd put so much of his heart 306 00:22:17,439 --> 00:22:20,689 into his house, into his collections. 307 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:24,060 ANNE SEBBA: The house was unfinished at this point in 308 00:22:24,069 --> 00:22:29,989 1841. He'd had six years, but he hadn't finished what he planned 309 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:35,349 to do. Create this Italian Palazzo with the obelisk taking 310 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:37,420 pride of place on the lawns, 311 00:22:37,420 --> 00:22:40,229 ALISON STEADMAN: His steward had continued to keep him abreast of 312 00:22:40,239 --> 00:22:43,469 the developments his siblings were making of the house, 313 00:22:43,530 --> 00:22:48,000 William Bankes was an absolute and total control freak. 314 00:22:48,250 --> 00:22:51,180 ANNE SEBBA: And there are some intriguing insights where he 315 00:22:51,189 --> 00:22:56,719 asks his sister if she could try out whether a pot would go here 316 00:22:56,729 --> 00:22:58,719 or a piece of sculpture there. 317 00:22:59,089 --> 00:23:01,300 ALISON STEADMAN: It seems Bankes couldn't let go of his 318 00:23:01,310 --> 00:23:05,949 unfinished project. His pride and joy, Kingston Lacy. 319 00:23:06,420 --> 00:23:09,180 CATHERINE SHARP: His body was in Venice, but his heart was always 320 00:23:09,189 --> 00:23:09,880 in Dorset. 321 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,369 ALISON STEADMAN: Bankes had been dealt a double blow. His 322 00:23:13,380 --> 00:23:17,069 scholarly breakthrough sidelined then his beloved home and 323 00:23:17,079 --> 00:23:22,060 collections effectively taken away, but he may now be getting 324 00:23:22,069 --> 00:23:25,739 the recognition he deserves. 325 00:23:25,739 --> 00:23:28,339 CATHERINE SHARP: Very interesting recent research by 326 00:23:28,349 --> 00:23:32,920 Oxford University using the very latest technology has been able 327 00:23:32,930 --> 00:23:36,780 to examine the inscriptions on the Philae Obelisk. They've 328 00:23:36,790 --> 00:23:40,959 managed to digitize it so that they can tell where the 329 00:23:40,969 --> 00:23:45,040 inscription has degraded because the obelisk has always been 330 00:23:45,050 --> 00:23:48,550 outside. It's never been protected by anything against 331 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:52,300 the weather. So the inscriptions in places have become very worn. 332 00:23:52,780 --> 00:23:55,079 ALISON STEADMAN: With the equipment, the team were able to 333 00:23:55,089 --> 00:23:59,300 clarify both inscriptions, the hieroglyphs and the Greek 334 00:23:59,310 --> 00:24:03,500 inscription underneath casting new light on how impressive 335 00:24:03,510 --> 00:24:05,280 Banke's original work had been. 336 00:24:05,459 --> 00:24:09,469 CATHERINE SHARP: And they have been able to tell by doing that 337 00:24:09,689 --> 00:24:13,900 how accurate William John's drawings of the inscriptions 338 00:24:13,910 --> 00:24:18,119 were. It just shows how, how very meticulous he was. 339 00:24:18,449 --> 00:24:20,479 ALISON STEADMAN: It's devastating to think of all the 340 00:24:20,489 --> 00:24:23,689 time and effort, passion and travel Bankes put into his 341 00:24:23,699 --> 00:24:27,839 collection, particularly his treasured obelisk for him never 342 00:24:27,849 --> 00:24:33,650 to see any of it again. However, if local legend and a clue in a 343 00:24:33,660 --> 00:24:38,160 letter are to be believed, William may have found a way to 344 00:24:38,170 --> 00:24:40,520 continue to enjoy his masterpiece. 345 00:24:40,900 --> 00:24:43,729 CATHERINE SHARP: There are stories that he did return to 346 00:24:43,739 --> 00:24:44,959 Kingston Lacy. 347 00:24:45,030 --> 00:24:47,420 ALISON STEADMAN: There's a letter which suggests that 348 00:24:47,430 --> 00:24:51,390 Bankes may once have made a secret visit to Kingston Lacy 349 00:24:51,719 --> 00:24:53,709 one last time before he died. 350 00:24:54,250 --> 00:24:57,579 ANNE SEBBA: There wasn't quite enough marble in one of these 351 00:24:57,589 --> 00:25:02,550 niches so that there's this very poignant letter to the steward 352 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,869 where he tells him how to cut the marble very finely, which 353 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:12,079 part of the marble to use. And he says, take it from the box I 354 00:25:12,089 --> 00:25:13,270 showed you. 355 00:25:13,410 --> 00:25:17,915 So there is an indication that he came and quite clear that 356 00:25:17,925 --> 00:25:22,954 there had been some practical demonstration of, of what was 357 00:25:22,964 --> 00:25:28,875 needed. So I, I do believe that once Bankes knew that probably 358 00:25:28,885 --> 00:25:31,915 he wasn't in good health towards the end of his life. So it might 359 00:25:31,925 --> 00:25:38,035 have been 1853 1854, he probably risked coming home for a short 360 00:25:38,045 --> 00:25:38,714 time. 361 00:25:39,469 --> 00:25:41,880 CATHERINE SHARP: He might well have sailed back to the shores 362 00:25:41,890 --> 00:25:47,650 of Dorset, landed on his own land off Purbeck and made his 363 00:25:47,660 --> 00:25:51,530 way to Kingston Lacy just to see what his house looked like after 364 00:25:51,540 --> 00:25:54,969 all the years of imagining what it must look like. 365 00:25:55,229 --> 00:25:57,410 ALISON STEADMAN: I really do hope Bankes had a chance to 366 00:25:57,420 --> 00:26:01,890 return and I hope he gazed up one last time at the Philae 367 00:26:02,650 --> 00:26:03,069 Obelisk. 368 00:26:04,729 --> 00:26:08,319 CATHERINE SHARP: And what do I think when I look at it? Well, 369 00:26:08,329 --> 00:26:13,420 I'm standing at it at its base. The house Kingston Lacy looks 370 00:26:13,430 --> 00:26:19,459 curiously small and this looks very big and very important. And 371 00:26:19,469 --> 00:26:26,520 of course, it was because this artifact was collected at an 372 00:26:26,530 --> 00:26:33,969 extremely important and pivotal time for the translation of 373 00:26:33,979 --> 00:26:35,040 ancient scripts. 374 00:26:35,839 --> 00:26:42,170 And I think this symbolizes in a way how important that period of 375 00:26:42,180 --> 00:26:49,500 discovery was in the early 19th Century and what a significant 376 00:26:49,510 --> 00:26:51,829 part William John himself played in it. 377 00:27:00,420 --> 00:27:02,829 JAMES GRASBY : Thanks for listening to this episode of the 378 00:27:02,839 --> 00:27:06,599 National Trust Podcast. To find out more about the historical 379 00:27:06,609 --> 00:27:09,589 interpretation of the Philae Obelisk and other artefacts in 380 00:27:09,599 --> 00:27:13,020 the collection at Kingston Lacy, follow the links to resources in 381 00:27:13,030 --> 00:27:15,020 our episode show notes. 382 00:27:15,020 --> 00:27:17,839 If you've enjoyed it and would like to hear about how we make 383 00:27:17,849 --> 00:27:20,510 the National Trust Podcast, I'll be appearing at the Chalke 384 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,359 History Festival in June along with the producers behind the 385 00:27:23,369 --> 00:27:27,250 show. We'll be back soon with another episode. But for now 386 00:27:27,260 --> 00:27:29,560 from me, James Grasby, goodbye.