INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where

INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child protection

INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation.

INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and

INTRO: share good practice on how we can all work together

INTRO: to keep babies, children and young people safe.

PRODUCER: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast.

PRODUCER: This episode, recorded at the end of 2023

PRODUCER: and the beginning of 2024, is all about

PRODUCER: absenteeism in schools.

PRODUCER: Since the COVID-19 pandemic, pupil absence rates

PRODUCER: in schools have increased across the UK, with

PRODUCER: hundreds of thousands of children persistently

PRODUCER: absent from school.

PRODUCER: Education is a vital part of ensuring children

PRODUCER: get the best possible start in life, and there

PRODUCER: can also be safeguarding implications for

PRODUCER: children who are absent from school.

PRODUCER: This podcast episode will look at what those

PRODUCER: implications may be and what schools can do to

PRODUCER: support children who are persistently absent.

PRODUCER: You'll also hear two secondary school students

PRODUCER: share their thoughts on how the stresses and

PRODUCER: strains of school life can affect attendance.

PRODUCER: But first, I asked Janet Hinton, the NSPCC's

PRODUCER: Strategic Service Manager for schools,

PRODUCER: to explain what we mean by absenteeism.

JANET HINTON: So, school absenteeism would be when a child

JANET HINTON: or young person who is of a compulsory school

JANET HINTON: age is absent from school.

JANET HINTON: You will also hear terms that children are

JANET HINTON: missing from education, and that refers to

JANET HINTON: children who are not registered at school,

JANET HINTON: but they're not receiving suitable home

JANET HINTON: education either. And that's quite a

JANET HINTON: different group to children who are

JANET HINTON: persistently absent from school.

PRODUCER: And what does that term 'persistently absent'

PRODUCER: mean?

JANET HINTON: Yeah. So across England, Wales and Scotland,

JANET HINTON: the term 'persistent absence' is used to

JANET HINTON: describe children who miss 10% or more of

JANET HINTON: possible school sessions.

JANET HINTON: And in Northern Ireland the term 'chronic

JANET HINTON: absence' is used.

JANET HINTON: So although the terms across regions and

JANET HINTON: nations are different, the consistent trends

JANET HINTON: since the COVID-19 pandemic are the numbers

JANET HINTON: of students who are persistently absent has

JANET HINTON: really risen. So in 2022-2023,

JANET HINTON: 21% of pupils were persistent absentees in

JANET HINTON: England, 18% of pupils in Wales and

JANET HINTON: roughly a third in both Scotland and Northern

JANET HINTON: Ireland. We know it's complex and complicated

JANET HINTON: and that certain groups of children are much

JANET HINTON: more likely to be absent than others.

JANET HINTON: So that does include young people

JANET HINTON: with special educational needs and

JANET HINTON: disabilities, young people with mental health

JANET HINTON: problems, young carers.

JANET HINTON: There's lots of different reasons that

JANET HINTON: children could be absent from schools, and

JANET HINTON: lots of different things going on in their

JANET HINTON: lives that might affect how likely they are

JANET HINTON: to be absent from school for either a fixed

JANET HINTON: period of time, or for a long period of time

JANET HINTON: throughout their school career or their time

JANET HINTON: at school. So children with a history of

JANET HINTON: exclusion or absence, or young people in

JANET HINTON: care, and those who have a social worker,

JANET HINTON: might be more at risk of persistent

JANET HINTON: absenteeism than some other groups of young

JANET HINTON: people.

PRODUCER: So we know that some children are more at risk.

PRODUCER: And we also know that although there are lots of

PRODUCER: good reasons why children might miss school —

PRODUCER: they might be ill, they might have medical

PRODUCER: appointments, etc.

PRODUCER: — there are obviously safeguarding implications

PRODUCER: for children who are persistently missing school.

PRODUCER: Please can you describe what those are and what

PRODUCER: they may look like?

JANET HINTON: Yeah. You're absolutely right to say that the

JANET HINTON: reasons that young people might be

JANET HINTON: persistently absent from school are really

JANET HINTON: wide-ranging, and it's really important to be

JANET HINTON: non-judgmental about for what those reasons

JANET HINTON: might be and recognise that there is

JANET HINTON: safeguarding implications when a child or

JANET HINTON: young person is persistently absent.

JANET HINTON: We know that schools are protective

JANET HINTON: spaces. School staff are in a really

JANET HINTON: excellent position to know young people,

JANET HINTON: to see them every day, to identify

JANET HINTON: safeguarding concerns early and to really

JANET HINTON: provide support to children where they need,

JANET HINTON: to stop concerns from escalating.

JANET HINTON: So if children are absent from that space,

JANET HINTON: the ability that schools have to carry out

JANET HINTON: that protective function is really impaired.

JANET HINTON: And although, as we said, there are

JANET HINTON: wide-ranging reasons that young people are

JANET HINTON: absent, there may be underlying safeguarding

JANET HINTON: reasons why a child is missing from school.

JANET HINTON: So in some instances, poor attendance could

JANET HINTON: be a sign of abuse or neglect.

JANET HINTON: And there's definitely a risk of serious harm

JANET HINTON: when this isn't picked up. And in that sense,

JANET HINTON: school acts as one really important place

JANET HINTON: where safeguarding concerns can be

JANET HINTON: identified, but also that they can be acted

JANET HINTON: on and that young people can be kept safe.

PRODUCER: And finally, what can schools do to prevent

PRODUCER: absenteeism and to support children who are

PRODUCER: persistently absent?

JANET HINTON: Schools take their responsibility to monitor

JANET HINTON: students absence really seriously.

JANET HINTON: When a child does fail to attend school

JANET HINTON: without explanation, their absence should be

JANET HINTON: investigated as part of the school's

JANET HINTON: safeguarding responsibility.

JANET HINTON: So the school does have, for example,

JANET HINTON: responsibility to inform the local authority

JANET HINTON: of any students who fail to attend school

JANET HINTON: regularly, or miss ten school days or more

JANET HINTON: without permission.

JANET HINTON: In terms of trying to keep young people

JANET HINTON: in school as much as possible and to be able

JANET HINTON: to use schools as a safe place, schools also

JANET HINTON: work really hard to make sure that they

JANET HINTON: support children who might be reluctant to

JANET HINTON: attend school and to work with young people

JANET HINTON: and their families as well.

JANET HINTON: For example, the amount of pastoral support

JANET HINTON: and the ways that young people can be brought

JANET HINTON: back into school at their own pace —

JANET HINTON: including things like reasonable adjustments,

JANET HINTON: phased returns, providing students

JANET HINTON: and families with regular check-ins — there's

JANET HINTON: lots of things that school can do to make

JANET HINTON: attendance at school easier for

JANET HINTON: young people and families, and to really work

JANET HINTON: with children and families where they are

JANET HINTON: without feeling judged.

JANET HINTON: And I think that, you know, children who have

JANET HINTON: been absent for a long time sometimes need

JANET HINTON: really gradual, really tailored support plans

JANET HINTON: to bring them back into school in a way

JANET HINTON: that's really supportive and beneficial to

JANET HINTON: them. And in a way that not only keeps them

JANET HINTON: safer, but bolsters their confidence as well.

PRODUCER: One place that children can turn to for support

PRODUCER: if they're struggling with anything, including

PRODUCER: school, is Childline.

PRODUCER: John Anderton and Kelly Burnett are Childline

PRODUCER: supervisors who respond to calls from children

PRODUCER: and listen to their concerns.

PRODUCER: I sat down with them both to discuss what they've

PRODUCER: learnt about why children are missing school.

JOHN ANDERTON: I would say predominantly the reasons we

JOHN ANDERTON: hear about most commonly are issues sort

JOHN ANDERTON: of outside the more obvious medical,

JOHN ANDERTON: health-related reasons, really.

JOHN ANDERTON: Other related problems — which we are

JOHN ANDERTON: probably more inclined to hear about —

JOHN ANDERTON: include things that are going on at school,

JOHN ANDERTON: perhaps maybe bullying; or some sort of

JOHN ANDERTON: anxiety or depression; mental

JOHN ANDERTON: health issues that might be impacting

JOHN ANDERTON: school and the performance at school; family

JOHN ANDERTON: problems; it could be that the young person

JOHN ANDERTON: has developed, for whatever reason, a

JOHN ANDERTON: generally quite negative attitude towards

JOHN ANDERTON: school; all sorts of reasons, really.

JOHN ANDERTON: We do know that school attendance, certainly

JOHN ANDERTON: since the pandemic, has been an issue.

KELLY BURNETT: I think also it's worth bearing in mind

KELLY BURNETT: parental concerns. You know, the parent

KELLY BURNETT: opinion on things.

KELLY BURNETT: That it's potentially more to do with the

KELLY BURNETT: parents than it is to do with young people.

KELLY BURNETT: Quite often we can hear from young people

KELLY BURNETT: who talk about wanting to go to school, but

KELLY BURNETT: their parents are scared that, you know,

KELLY BURNETT: history is going to repeat itself and that's

KELLY BURNETT: preventing that as well. So yeah, I suppose

KELLY BURNETT: it's about considering those options as

KELLY BURNETT: well. But I think John's absolutely right in

KELLY BURNETT: terms of the impact since the pandemic.

KELLY BURNETT: You know, certainly seems to have escalated

KELLY BURNETT: and again, in line with all of the mental

KELLY BURNETT: health concerns as well.

JOHN ANDERTON: And I think sometimes we kind of forget just

JOHN ANDERTON: how long the disruption from the pandemic

JOHN ANDERTON: actually lasted in terms of school.

JOHN ANDERTON: And I think that for some of the children

JOHN ANDERTON: who have started to miss school since the

JOHN ANDERTON: pandemic, it can be a question of

JOHN ANDERTON: it's kind of broken that momentum, if you

JOHN ANDERTON: like, of going to school.

JOHN ANDERTON: It's almost as if children had to get back

JOHN ANDERTON: into the habit almost of going to school.

JOHN ANDERTON: Plus, I think it's exacerbated some of the

JOHN ANDERTON: problems that might already have existed at

JOHN ANDERTON: home as well. I think some of those may have

JOHN ANDERTON: come to the fore during the pandemic.

JOHN ANDERTON: And, I mean, we know, don't we,

JOHN ANDERTON: unfortunately, that lockdowns and

JOHN ANDERTON: the things that happened during the pandemic

JOHN ANDERTON: did have an impact on anxiety levels, on

JOHN ANDERTON: depression levels — not just for children,

JOHN ANDERTON: of course, but for everybody, adults as

JOHN ANDERTON: well. So it could be what we're actually

JOHN ANDERTON: seeing is symptomatic of that.

PRODUCER: Absolutely. I think it's impossible to ignore the

PRODUCER: impact of COVID on school attendance.

PRODUCER: We've touched on this a bit already in the

PRODUCER: podcast, but why is school attendance so

PRODUCER: important for children?

KELLY BURNETT: I mean, the obvious one is obviously the

KELLY BURNETT: impact on their education, the impact on

KELLY BURNETT: their future. But I think we quite often

KELLY BURNETT: take for granted the fact that schools actually

KELLY BURNETT: a safe place for them sometimes as well.

KELLY BURNETT: It can be an escape from their home

KELLY BURNETT: environment. And if, you know, if the home

KELLY BURNETT: environment is the reason why they're being

KELLY BURNETT: prevented from coming into school, you've

KELLY BURNETT: got that knock-on effect.

KELLY BURNETT: It's also a bit of stability for them as

KELLY BURNETT: well, and a bit of routine. I think, you

KELLY BURNETT: know, as we mentioned before, in terms of

KELLY BURNETT: the impact on the pandemic and coming in and

KELLY BURNETT: how, I think, children and young people were

KELLY BURNETT: out of school for that period of time: they

KELLY BURNETT: lost that sense of stability.

KELLY BURNETT: So school can be that element of stability

KELLY BURNETT: for them.

JOHN ANDERTON: Many of the children who we talked to, who

JOHN ANDERTON: are not attending school or not attending

JOHN ANDERTON: school regularly, often describe themselves

JOHN ANDERTON: as being socially isolated.

JOHN ANDERTON: School does provide an opportunity to take

JOHN ANDERTON: part in extracurricular activities and

JOHN ANDERTON: social activities as well.

JOHN ANDERTON: And I think children, particularly through

JOHN ANDERTON: those formative years, will miss

JOHN ANDERTON: out on that opportunity to develop what are

JOHN ANDERTON: really kind of quite basic social skills

JOHN ANDERTON: that we almost take for granted but actually

JOHN ANDERTON: are formed during those really important

JOHN ANDERTON: years at school.

PRODUCER: Definitely. And I think on that point, I should

PRODUCER: tell listeners about the NSPCC's new Building

PRODUCER: Connections service, which helps children who

PRODUCER: are experiencing loneliness.

PRODUCER: My next question is: when does missing school

PRODUCER: become a safeguarding concern?

KELLY BURNETT: Again, I think, when school is the safe

KELLY BURNETT: place, at home they're at risk of

KELLY BURNETT: being exposed to things that potentially

KELLY BURNETT: might be going on in the family home.

KELLY BURNETT: Also, I think, it can — and I remember this

KELLY BURNETT: from my teaching days — it's potential

KELLY BURNETT: neglect, particularly if the parents are

KELLY BURNETT: involved there as well, in not being able to

KELLY BURNETT: provide, you know, that basic need that they

KELLY BURNETT: have to attend school.

KELLY BURNETT: And obviously with the extremes of that,

KELLY BURNETT: you've then got the impact of potentially

KELLY BURNETT: abusive behaviours, from people within the

KELLY BURNETT: family, from people that they know.

KELLY BURNETT: So in that respect, yes. This is where

KELLY BURNETT: schools come in, in terms of picking up on

KELLY BURNETT: those things.

KELLY BURNETT: Picking up on those behaviours, those changing

KELLY BURNETT: behaviours. But that's also difficult if the

KELLY BURNETT: child's not attending school.

JOHN ANDERTON: We know that children who are not attending

JOHN ANDERTON: school can become targets for abuse

JOHN ANDERTON: and exploitation.

JOHN ANDERTON: And also, schools are such a great...

JOHN ANDERTON: You know, they're a source of support, of

JOHN ANDERTON: course, school itself.

JOHN ANDERTON: But schools are also a gateway to other

JOHN ANDERTON: areas of support as well.

JOHN ANDERTON: I've actually just been speaking to a

JOHN ANDERTON: school, making a referral to a school about

JOHN ANDERTON: a young person.

JOHN ANDERTON: Well, on behalf of a young person, I should

JOHN ANDERTON: say. And that was an example

JOHN ANDERTON: where this young person did really

JOHN ANDERTON: need help. We had some very significant

JOHN ANDERTON: safeguarding concerns about this young

JOHN ANDERTON: person.

JOHN ANDERTON: The only people that this young person

JOHN ANDERTON: would agree to us making contact with was

JOHN ANDERTON: school. Had we needed to, we would have had

JOHN ANDERTON: to have worked against this young person's

JOHN ANDERTON: wishes and contacted maybe police or the

JOHN ANDERTON: ambulance services or children's services.

JOHN ANDERTON: But what this young person did do, because

JOHN ANDERTON: they've got that relationship with school,

JOHN ANDERTON: they were much more comfortable with us

JOHN ANDERTON: talking to school on their behalf.

JOHN ANDERTON: So, when we're talking to children who are

JOHN ANDERTON: not attending schools, they haven't got that

JOHN ANDERTON: healthy sort of constructive relationship

JOHN ANDERTON: with schools.

JOHN ANDERTON: It can be so much harder to find appropriate

JOHN ANDERTON: help and support for that young person as

JOHN ANDERTON: well, which then, you know, sort of

JOHN ANDERTON: amplifies and increases any safeguarding

JOHN ANDERTON: concerns that already exist.

PRODUCER: You're right to highlight the vital role that

PRODUCER: schools play in keeping children safe.

PRODUCER: And it's really important as well to recognise

PRODUCER: the safeguarding pressures that schools are

PRODUCER: under. What advice would you give to education

PRODUCER: professionals on how to support children who are

PRODUCER: frequently missing school?

KELLY BURNETT: I mean, I think again, from experience —

KELLY BURNETT: more so sort of now rather than when I was

KELLY BURNETT: teaching — there are now, there seems to be

KELLY BURNETT: more designated teams involved.

KELLY BURNETT: So the pastoral teams are more prominent,

KELLY BURNETT: the safeguarding teams are more prominent.

KELLY BURNETT: And I am aware, obviously, that some have

KELLY BURNETT: got absence workers within schools

KELLY BURNETT: and that kind of thing. I suppose, as well,

KELLY BURNETT: you know, it's potentially looking for those

KELLY BURNETT: patterns. Is there a reason why these young

KELLY BURNETT: people are off. Are there reasons why

KELLY BURNETT: they're off at certain points of the day.

KELLY BURNETT: I suppose it's that multi-agency work as

KELLY BURNETT: well, isn't it, making sure that they're communicating

KELLY BURNETT: with social care, if there's any involvement

KELLY BURNETT: with them, and anything else they might

KELLY BURNETT: know. So just making sure that, I suppose,

KELLY BURNETT: that communication is there so that we can

KELLY BURNETT: make sure we're there for those young people.

JOHN ANDERTON: I would agree with that. And, I mean, I find

JOHN ANDERTON: personally that when we work with other

JOHN ANDERTON: agencies, a lot of the most helpful and

JOHN ANDERTON: constructive work that we do is actually

JOHN ANDERTON: done with schools.

JOHN ANDERTON: And again, it's really just about schools

JOHN ANDERTON: being alert to those signs and certainly

JOHN ANDERTON: being willing to just sort of, you know...

JOHN ANDERTON: We talk to people, about

JOHN ANDERTON: acting on your hunches, you know; that if

JOHN ANDERTON: you sense that something's not right,

JOHN ANDERTON: then the likelihood is that something is not

JOHN ANDERTON: right, that there is a problem there.

JOHN ANDERTON: So, we would say to schools, as we'd say to

JOHN ANDERTON: anybody, particularly anybody who

JOHN ANDERTON: has regular contact with children and young

JOHN ANDERTON: people, is to act on your gut instincts,

JOHN ANDERTON: really. And to just sort of check.

JOHN ANDERTON: Don't hesitate just to check.

JOHN ANDERTON: Even if it turns out that you're wrong — and

JOHN ANDERTON: hopefully you are wrong and there aren't any

JOHN ANDERTON: really concerning issues going on — just

JOHN ANDERTON: act on your hunches, you know, just take

JOHN ANDERTON: notice of those gut feelings.

PRODUCER: John, Kelly, thank you so much for sharing your

PRODUCER: experiences of supporting children through

PRODUCER: Childline.

PRODUCER: To get a full picture of the problem of

PRODUCER: absenteeism in schools, it's important to hear

PRODUCER: from young people themselves.

PRODUCER: To conclude this podcast episode, I spoke to two

PRODUCER: members of the NSPCC's Young People's Board for

PRODUCER: Change (YPBC), who are both currently in

PRODUCER: secondary education.

PRODUCER: The young people began by sharing their opinions

PRODUCER: on why children might want to miss school.

YPBC MEMBER 1: I think as everyone is very different,

YPBC MEMBER 1: there is loads of reasons why a young person

YPBC MEMBER 1: would quit school.

YPBC MEMBER 1: For me, the reasons that I missed school

YPBC MEMBER 1: were illness and stress

YPBC MEMBER 1: and undiagnosed needs.

YPBC MEMBER 1: And I think that definitely goes for a lot

YPBC MEMBER 1: of young people — how you can

YPBC MEMBER 1: so easily get stressed and overwhelmed by

YPBC MEMBER 1: all of the pressures that school can put on

YPBC MEMBER 1: you. And also peer pressure and exams

YPBC MEMBER 1: and homework, and it can all get on top of

YPBC MEMBER 1: you.

YPBC MEMBER 1: It can be very stressful, and that can cause

YPBC MEMBER 1: illness in itself.

YPBC MEMBER 1: And, I guess, one of the big main

YPBC MEMBER 1: things that I think schools don't really

YPBC MEMBER 1: understand is that actually mainstream

YPBC MEMBER 1: school might not actually be the best place

YPBC MEMBER 1: for that individual, and school might not be

YPBC MEMBER 1: the best place for a child.

YPBC MEMBER 1: There are other ways of receiving an

YPBC MEMBER 1: education that might work better for

YPBC MEMBER 1: that child.

YPBC MEMBER 2: I think it could just be sometimes as simple

YPBC MEMBER 2: as they just don't feel like it's a nice

YPBC MEMBER 2: environment to be in.

YPBC MEMBER 2: It could be because the teachers, they don't

YPBC MEMBER 2: feel like the teachers are kind to them, or

YPBC MEMBER 2: they don't feel like the teachers are

YPBC MEMBER 2: helping them or understanding them.

YPBC MEMBER 2: Or it could be because of the kids and the

YPBC MEMBER 2: other people in the school.

YPBC MEMBER 2: That could be because they've been bullied,

YPBC MEMBER 2: or it could just be because the kids are

YPBC MEMBER 2: mean and just say comments sometimes.

YPBC MEMBER 2: And it's just... I know for me some of the

YPBC MEMBER 2: kids in the school just aren't very nice and

YPBC MEMBER 2: they'll just say random things. And I think

YPBC MEMBER 2: that can stick with you for the whole day.

YPBC MEMBER 2: Just one bad experience can make the whole

YPBC MEMBER 2: day just unenjoyable and not a nice

YPBC MEMBER 2: place to be. And if that happens repeatedly,

YPBC MEMBER 2: you just start to hate school and not want

YPBC MEMBER 2: to be there. And if you get any...

YPBC MEMBER 2: If you wake up one day with a slight

YPBC MEMBER 2: headache, you might just take that and say,

YPBC MEMBER 2: "sorry, I can't come in", because what's the

YPBC MEMBER 2: point in being in school if you're just not

YPBC MEMBER 2: enjoying it?

PRODUCER: Absolutely, I think that sort of snowball

PRODUCER: effect will be really recognisable for lots of

PRODUCER: people. You both mentioned the stresses that

PRODUCER: young people might face.

PRODUCER: Please, can you talk a little bit more about

PRODUCER: those stresses that might lead to young people

PRODUCER: missing school?

YPBC MEMBER 1: I think, for me, I wasn't in secondary

YPBC MEMBER 1: school very long because the stress of

YPBC MEMBER 1: starting was too much for me.

YPBC MEMBER 1: So some of the stresses for me were, because

YPBC MEMBER 1: I had a diagnosed autism, I found

YPBC MEMBER 1: being in a really busy school environment,

YPBC MEMBER 1: carrying loads of books, it's so noisy

YPBC MEMBER 1: in stairwells and in dinner halls.

YPBC MEMBER 1: It's insanely loud and

YPBC MEMBER 1: it all gets on top of you.

YPBC MEMBER 1: People brush past you, it's very pushy

YPBC MEMBER 1: and shovey in all the corridors, and it's

YPBC MEMBER 1: just generally a really overwhelming

YPBC MEMBER 1: experience.

YPBC MEMBER 2: I also think in class,

YPBC MEMBER 2: when you're in class, there's so much

YPBC MEMBER 2: information being thrown at you and you've

YPBC MEMBER 2: got to sit and just listen to the teacher

YPBC MEMBER 2: talk for such a long period of time.

YPBC MEMBER 2: If you're someone who struggles with sitting

YPBC MEMBER 2: still and just paying attention for long

YPBC MEMBER 2: periods of time, you could get in trouble

YPBC MEMBER 2: for those things. And then that makes school

YPBC MEMBER 2: even more of a bad experience

YPBC MEMBER 2: for you, because the teacher doesn't

YPBC MEMBER 2: understand the fact that you're finding it

YPBC MEMBER 2: hard to concentrate, and you might be trying

YPBC MEMBER 2: your hardest but you're getting punished for

YPBC MEMBER 2: those things, when you're trying to the

YPBC MEMBER 2: highest of your capacity to listen to the

YPBC MEMBER 2: teacher talk for that long.

YPBC MEMBER 2: But it can just get really stressful.

YPBC MEMBER 2: And if that's happening six times or five

YPBC MEMBER 2: times in a day because you've got that many

YPBC MEMBER 2: lessons, it can just become really stressful

YPBC MEMBER 2: and get on top of you.

YPBC MEMBER 2: And then if you think you're behind in work,

YPBC MEMBER 2: because you've not heard what's happening in

YPBC MEMBER 2: lesson, then it just gets even worse.

YPBC MEMBER 2: And then you don't know what to do on

YPBC MEMBER 2: homework and you worry for tests because

YPBC MEMBER 2: you don't understand what's happening in class.

YPBC MEMBER 2: It just gets very stressful and overwhelming

YPBC MEMBER 2: for you.

YPBC MEMBER 1: All of these stresses just build up over

YPBC MEMBER 1: time and it's so degrading.

YPBC MEMBER 1: You go through it day after day after day.

YPBC MEMBER 1: And what then starts to happen is

YPBC MEMBER 1: you just start to burnout.

YPBC MEMBER 1: I think it's like one of the highest things

YPBC MEMBER 1: in students at the moment is burnout.

YPBC MEMBER 1: Over lockdown and through

YPBC MEMBER 1: COVID, after that, so many

YPBC MEMBER 1: children got diagnosed with things that

YPBC MEMBER 1: hadn't been picked up in schools because

YPBC MEMBER 1: going back to school after COVID was so

YPBC MEMBER 1: stressful. It feels almost cruel sometimes,

YPBC MEMBER 1: the amount of stress that young people get

YPBC MEMBER 1: put under from schools, and it's meant

YPBC MEMBER 1: to be a safe place, and it's meant to be a

YPBC MEMBER 1: place where you're meant to learn and thrive.

YPBC MEMBER 1: And yet, sometimes, it can be

YPBC MEMBER 1: one of the most traumatic places to be

YPBC MEMBER 1: because you're just put under stress day in

YPBC MEMBER 1: and day out.

PRODUCER: That's obviously — and I'm sure teachers will

PRODUCER: agree — that that's not the aim of school.

PRODUCER: School should be a place where students feel safe and secure. What do

PRODUCER: you think education professionals can do to make

PRODUCER: the school environment less stressful?

PRODUCER: Because no one wants it to be as stressful as you

PRODUCER: describe?

YPBC MEMBER 2: I think just talking to the people

YPBC MEMBER 2: who are not enjoying school or who are off

YPBC MEMBER 2: school, talking to people and their

YPBC MEMBER 2: families, and just having a discussion and

YPBC MEMBER 2: asking them why they don't feel like they

YPBC MEMBER 2: want to come to school. What is the problem?

YPBC MEMBER 2: What's the issue for you?

YPBC MEMBER 2: And then figuring out a way to fix that for

YPBC MEMBER 2: them. So, say they thought it was too

YPBC MEMBER 2: crowded or just too loud and crazy

YPBC MEMBER 2: and chaotic, maybe let them out of lessons

YPBC MEMBER 2: five minutes early so they go out before the

YPBC MEMBER 2: rush of people and find a place for them

YPBC MEMBER 2: to go during break and lunch so they don't

YPBC MEMBER 2: have to be in a big group of people.

YPBC MEMBER 2: And then, just talk to them and understand

YPBC MEMBER 2: their needs and what you can do to make them

YPBC MEMBER 2: feel valued and understood.

YPBC MEMBER 1: When you're absent from school for a long

YPBC MEMBER 1: period of time, there seems to be a big

YPBC MEMBER 1: amount of blame. A big amount of blame that

YPBC MEMBER 1: goes on parents and a big amount of blame

YPBC MEMBER 1: that goes on a child.

YPBC MEMBER 1: Because school's main objective seems to be

YPBC MEMBER 1: getting the child back into school as soon

YPBC MEMBER 1: as possible, rather than making sure that

YPBC MEMBER 1: they're happy and healthy in school.

YPBC MEMBER 1: I do feel like it is worth listening to the

YPBC MEMBER 1: child and the parents about what the reasons

YPBC MEMBER 1: are and trying to solve them.

YPBC MEMBER 1: If you listen, then you might find a

YPBC MEMBER 1: solution, because the likelihood is if you

YPBC MEMBER 1: just force them back into school without

YPBC MEMBER 1: listening, they'll be absent in the future

YPBC MEMBER 1: and they won't be happy and they won't enjoy

YPBC MEMBER 1: learning. And that's just not the way it's

YPBC MEMBER 1: going to work.

YPBC MEMBER 1: So definitely listening and definitely being

YPBC MEMBER 1: solution-focused, and working on how can

YPBC MEMBER 1: you make the school more accessible

YPBC MEMBER 1: for the child and how can you make it more a

YPBC MEMBER 1: enjoyable experience for them?

YPBC MEMBER 1: And, again, realise

YPBC MEMBER 1: that mainstream school might not

YPBC MEMBER 1: be the best place and you have to

YPBC MEMBER 1: accept that. It's nothing that's like a

YPBC MEMBER 1: reflection on school, it's nothing like

YPBC MEMBER 1: that. It's just being able to accept that

YPBC MEMBER 1: actually every teacher wants

YPBC MEMBER 1: a child to be able to learn and thrive, and

YPBC MEMBER 1: being in mainstream school might not be the

YPBC MEMBER 1: way that they reach their full potential.

YPBC MEMBER 1: So I think realising that would definitely

YPBC MEMBER 1: be an improvement.

YPBC MEMBER 2: I also think adding on to that point, just

YPBC MEMBER 2: teaching kids where they need to go for help

YPBC MEMBER 2: and who they need to talk to if they're

YPBC MEMBER 2: having issues.

YPBC MEMBER 2: And some people might want a mentor

YPBC MEMBER 2: or somebody who they can speak to — or the

YPBC MEMBER 2: mentor can speak to them to check up on how

YPBC MEMBER 2: they're feeling and just check on how

YPBC MEMBER 2: school is feeling for them.

YPBC MEMBER 2: Because then, if they have any issues, they

YPBC MEMBER 2: can get sorted there and then, instead of it

YPBC MEMBER 2: building up and building up for them just

YPBC MEMBER 2: not wanting to come in school completely.

YPBC MEMBER 2: They can get rid of the issues as they

YPBC MEMBER 2: arise, and then it shouldn't become too big

YPBC MEMBER 2: of a thing and an issue and a stress in

YPBC MEMBER 2: school.

PRODUCER: I think that idea of a mentor is a really great

PRODUCER: idea, having that peer support in place is

PRODUCER: lovely. And I agree that taking steps to prevent

PRODUCER: issues from escalating is really important too.

PRODUCER: Before we end the podcast, are there any other

PRODUCER: points either of you want to make on this topic?

YPBC MEMBER 2: I just wanted to add that I think most of

YPBC MEMBER 2: the time, the issue is just that the child's

YPBC MEMBER 2: voice is lost in education and they just

YPBC MEMBER 2: don't get a chance to express their needs

YPBC MEMBER 2: and what they want to be done,

YPBC MEMBER 2: or what their issue is so that school can

YPBC MEMBER 2: figure out what needs to be done to keep

YPBC MEMBER 2: them in school or to bring them back to

YPBC MEMBER 2: school. And I think just listening to the

YPBC MEMBER 2: child and letting them tell you what's

YPBC MEMBER 2: wrong, instead of jumping to conclusions or

YPBC MEMBER 2: trying to figure it out, would just solve a

YPBC MEMBER 2: lot of things. Then you can work from there

YPBC MEMBER 2: and think, "okay, what can we do to solve

YPBC MEMBER 2: this issue to make them want to get back to

YPBC MEMBER 2: school?".

YPBC MEMBER 1: What they say is incredibly valuable,

YPBC MEMBER 1: especially if they've not been in school,

YPBC MEMBER 1: because this is probably the first time

YPBC MEMBER 1: that they will have spoken to anyone about

YPBC MEMBER 1: difficulties.

YPBC MEMBER 1: And making yourself available to talk to

YPBC MEMBER 1: and approachable is probably one of the most

YPBC MEMBER 1: valuable things you can give to the child.

YPBC MEMBER 1: And I know that if I'd had a teacher that

YPBC MEMBER 1: sat down and listened to me, if I was able

YPBC MEMBER 1: to talk, then that probably would have saved

YPBC MEMBER 1: an awful lot of trouble.

PRODUCER: And I think that point on the importance of

PRODUCER: listening to young people is really key, and it's

PRODUCER: the perfect final message to end our discussion

PRODUCER: with. Thank you both so much for sharing so

PRODUCER: candidly and so honestly your thoughts on this

PRODUCER: topic. I really benefited from listening to what

PRODUCER: you've had to say, and I'm sure our audience of

PRODUCER: the podcast will as well, so thank you.

PRODUCER: And thank you also to Janet Hinton, John Anderton

PRODUCER: and Kelly Burnett for their contributions.

PRODUCER: If you'd like to learn more about safeguarding

PRODUCER: children and young people in schools, you can

PRODUCER: find a range of resources on the NSPCC learning

PRODUCER: website, and we'll link to some of those in the

PRODUCER: podcast show notes.

PRODUCER: Thanks for listening.

OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning podcast.

OUTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content was

OUTRO: up to date, but the world of safeguarding and child

OUTRO: protection is ever-changing.

OUTRO: So, if you're looking for the most current

OUTRO: safeguarding and child protection training,

OUTRO: information or resources, please visit

OUTRO: our website for professionals at

OUTRO: nspcc.org.uk/learning.