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INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where

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INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child protection

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INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation.

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INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and

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INTRO: share good practice on how we can all work together

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INTRO: to keep babies, children and young people safe.

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PRODUCER: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast.

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PRODUCER: This episode, recorded at the end of 2023

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PRODUCER: and the beginning of 2024, is all about

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PRODUCER: absenteeism in schools.

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PRODUCER: Since the COVID-19 pandemic, pupil absence rates

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PRODUCER: in schools have increased across the UK, with

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PRODUCER: hundreds of thousands of children persistently

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PRODUCER: absent from school.

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PRODUCER: Education is a vital part of ensuring children

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PRODUCER: get the best possible start in life, and there

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PRODUCER: can also be safeguarding implications for

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PRODUCER: children who are absent from school.

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PRODUCER: This podcast episode will look at what those

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PRODUCER: implications may be and what schools can do to

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PRODUCER: support children who are persistently absent.

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PRODUCER: You'll also hear two secondary school students

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PRODUCER: share their thoughts on how the stresses and

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PRODUCER: strains of school life can affect attendance.

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PRODUCER: But first, I asked Janet Hinton, the NSPCC's

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PRODUCER: Strategic Service Manager for schools,

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PRODUCER: to explain what we mean by absenteeism.

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JANET HINTON: So, school absenteeism would be when a child

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JANET HINTON: or young person who is of a compulsory school

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JANET HINTON: age is absent from school.

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JANET HINTON: You will also hear terms that children are

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JANET HINTON: missing from education, and that refers to

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JANET HINTON: children who are not registered at school,

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JANET HINTON: but they're not receiving suitable home

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JANET HINTON: education either. And that's quite a

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JANET HINTON: different group to children who are

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JANET HINTON: persistently absent from school.

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PRODUCER: And what does that term 'persistently absent'

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PRODUCER: mean?

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JANET HINTON: Yeah. So across England, Wales and Scotland,

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JANET HINTON: the term 'persistent absence' is used to

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JANET HINTON: describe children who miss 10% or more of

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JANET HINTON: possible school sessions.

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JANET HINTON: And in Northern Ireland the term 'chronic

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JANET HINTON: absence' is used.

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JANET HINTON: So although the terms across regions and

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JANET HINTON: nations are different, the consistent trends

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JANET HINTON: since the COVID-19 pandemic are the numbers

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JANET HINTON: of students who are persistently absent has

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JANET HINTON: really risen. So in 2022-2023,

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JANET HINTON: 21% of pupils were persistent absentees in

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JANET HINTON: England, 18% of pupils in Wales and

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JANET HINTON: roughly a third in both Scotland and Northern

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JANET HINTON: Ireland. We know it's complex and complicated

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JANET HINTON: and that certain groups of children are much

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JANET HINTON: more likely to be absent than others.

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JANET HINTON: So that does include young people

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JANET HINTON: with special educational needs and

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JANET HINTON: disabilities, young people with mental health

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JANET HINTON: problems, young carers.

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JANET HINTON: There's lots of different reasons that

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JANET HINTON: children could be absent from schools, and

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JANET HINTON: lots of different things going on in their

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JANET HINTON: lives that might affect how likely they are

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JANET HINTON: to be absent from school for either a fixed

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JANET HINTON: period of time, or for a long period of time

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JANET HINTON: throughout their school career or their time

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JANET HINTON: at school. So children with a history of

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JANET HINTON: exclusion or absence, or young people in

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JANET HINTON: care, and those who have a social worker,

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JANET HINTON: might be more at risk of persistent

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JANET HINTON: absenteeism than some other groups of young

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JANET HINTON: people.

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PRODUCER: So we know that some children are more at risk.

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PRODUCER: And we also know that although there are lots of

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PRODUCER: good reasons why children might miss school —

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PRODUCER: they might be ill, they might have medical

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PRODUCER: appointments, etc.

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PRODUCER: — there are obviously safeguarding implications

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PRODUCER: for children who are persistently missing school.

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PRODUCER: Please can you describe what those are and what

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PRODUCER: they may look like?

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JANET HINTON: Yeah. You're absolutely right to say that the

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JANET HINTON: reasons that young people might be

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JANET HINTON: persistently absent from school are really

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JANET HINTON: wide-ranging, and it's really important to be

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JANET HINTON: non-judgmental about for what those reasons

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JANET HINTON: might be and recognise that there is

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JANET HINTON: safeguarding implications when a child or

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JANET HINTON: young person is persistently absent.

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JANET HINTON: We know that schools are protective

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JANET HINTON: spaces. School staff are in a really

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JANET HINTON: excellent position to know young people,

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JANET HINTON: to see them every day, to identify

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JANET HINTON: safeguarding concerns early and to really

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JANET HINTON: provide support to children where they need,

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JANET HINTON: to stop concerns from escalating.

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JANET HINTON: So if children are absent from that space,

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JANET HINTON: the ability that schools have to carry out

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JANET HINTON: that protective function is really impaired.

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JANET HINTON: And although, as we said, there are

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JANET HINTON: wide-ranging reasons that young people are

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JANET HINTON: absent, there may be underlying safeguarding

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JANET HINTON: reasons why a child is missing from school.

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JANET HINTON: So in some instances, poor attendance could

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JANET HINTON: be a sign of abuse or neglect.

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JANET HINTON: And there's definitely a risk of serious harm

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JANET HINTON: when this isn't picked up. And in that sense,

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JANET HINTON: school acts as one really important place

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JANET HINTON: where safeguarding concerns can be

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JANET HINTON: identified, but also that they can be acted

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JANET HINTON: on and that young people can be kept safe.

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PRODUCER: And finally, what can schools do to prevent

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PRODUCER: absenteeism and to support children who are

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PRODUCER: persistently absent?

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JANET HINTON: Schools take their responsibility to monitor

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JANET HINTON: students absence really seriously.

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JANET HINTON: When a child does fail to attend school

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JANET HINTON: without explanation, their absence should be

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JANET HINTON: investigated as part of the school's

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JANET HINTON: safeguarding responsibility.

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JANET HINTON: So the school does have, for example,

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JANET HINTON: responsibility to inform the local authority

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JANET HINTON: of any students who fail to attend school

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JANET HINTON: regularly, or miss ten school days or more

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JANET HINTON: without permission.

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JANET HINTON: In terms of trying to keep young people

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JANET HINTON: in school as much as possible and to be able

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JANET HINTON: to use schools as a safe place, schools also

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JANET HINTON: work really hard to make sure that they

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JANET HINTON: support children who might be reluctant to

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JANET HINTON: attend school and to work with young people

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JANET HINTON: and their families as well.

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JANET HINTON: For example, the amount of pastoral support

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JANET HINTON: and the ways that young people can be brought

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JANET HINTON: back into school at their own pace —

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JANET HINTON: including things like reasonable adjustments,

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JANET HINTON: phased returns, providing students

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JANET HINTON: and families with regular check-ins — there's

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JANET HINTON: lots of things that school can do to make

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JANET HINTON: attendance at school easier for

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JANET HINTON: young people and families, and to really work

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JANET HINTON: with children and families where they are

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JANET HINTON: without feeling judged.

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JANET HINTON: And I think that, you know, children who have

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JANET HINTON: been absent for a long time sometimes need

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JANET HINTON: really gradual, really tailored support plans

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JANET HINTON: to bring them back into school in a way

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JANET HINTON: that's really supportive and beneficial to

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JANET HINTON: them. And in a way that not only keeps them

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JANET HINTON: safer, but bolsters their confidence as well.

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PRODUCER: One place that children can turn to for support

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PRODUCER: if they're struggling with anything, including

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PRODUCER: school, is Childline.

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PRODUCER: John Anderton and Kelly Burnett are Childline

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PRODUCER: supervisors who respond to calls from children

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PRODUCER: and listen to their concerns.

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PRODUCER: I sat down with them both to discuss what they've

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PRODUCER: learnt about why children are missing school.

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JOHN ANDERTON: I would say predominantly the reasons we

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JOHN ANDERTON: hear about most commonly are issues sort

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JOHN ANDERTON: of outside the more obvious medical,

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JOHN ANDERTON: health-related reasons, really.

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JOHN ANDERTON: Other related problems — which we are

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JOHN ANDERTON: probably more inclined to hear about —

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JOHN ANDERTON: include things that are going on at school,

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JOHN ANDERTON: perhaps maybe bullying; or some sort of

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JOHN ANDERTON: anxiety or depression; mental

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JOHN ANDERTON: health issues that might be impacting

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JOHN ANDERTON: school and the performance at school; family

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JOHN ANDERTON: problems; it could be that the young person

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JOHN ANDERTON: has developed, for whatever reason, a

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JOHN ANDERTON: generally quite negative attitude towards

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JOHN ANDERTON: school; all sorts of reasons, really.

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JOHN ANDERTON: We do know that school attendance, certainly

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JOHN ANDERTON: since the pandemic, has been an issue.

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KELLY BURNETT: I think also it's worth bearing in mind

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KELLY BURNETT: parental concerns. You know, the parent

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KELLY BURNETT: opinion on things.

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KELLY BURNETT: That it's potentially more to do with the

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KELLY BURNETT: parents than it is to do with young people.

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KELLY BURNETT: Quite often we can hear from young people

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KELLY BURNETT: who talk about wanting to go to school, but

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KELLY BURNETT: their parents are scared that, you know,

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KELLY BURNETT: history is going to repeat itself and that's

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KELLY BURNETT: preventing that as well. So yeah, I suppose

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KELLY BURNETT: it's about considering those options as

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KELLY BURNETT: well. But I think John's absolutely right in

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KELLY BURNETT: terms of the impact since the pandemic.

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KELLY BURNETT: You know, certainly seems to have escalated

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KELLY BURNETT: and again, in line with all of the mental

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KELLY BURNETT: health concerns as well.

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JOHN ANDERTON: And I think sometimes we kind of forget just

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JOHN ANDERTON: how long the disruption from the pandemic

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JOHN ANDERTON: actually lasted in terms of school.

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JOHN ANDERTON: And I think that for some of the children

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JOHN ANDERTON: who have started to miss school since the

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JOHN ANDERTON: pandemic, it can be a question of

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JOHN ANDERTON: it's kind of broken that momentum, if you

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JOHN ANDERTON: like, of going to school.

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JOHN ANDERTON: It's almost as if children had to get back

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JOHN ANDERTON: into the habit almost of going to school.

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JOHN ANDERTON: Plus, I think it's exacerbated some of the

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JOHN ANDERTON: problems that might already have existed at

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JOHN ANDERTON: home as well. I think some of those may have

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JOHN ANDERTON: come to the fore during the pandemic.

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JOHN ANDERTON: And, I mean, we know, don't we,

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JOHN ANDERTON: unfortunately, that lockdowns and

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JOHN ANDERTON: the things that happened during the pandemic

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JOHN ANDERTON: did have an impact on anxiety levels, on

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JOHN ANDERTON: depression levels — not just for children,

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JOHN ANDERTON: of course, but for everybody, adults as

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JOHN ANDERTON: well. So it could be what we're actually

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JOHN ANDERTON: seeing is symptomatic of that.

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PRODUCER: Absolutely. I think it's impossible to ignore the

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PRODUCER: impact of COVID on school attendance.

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PRODUCER: We've touched on this a bit already in the

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PRODUCER: podcast, but why is school attendance so

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PRODUCER: important for children?

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KELLY BURNETT: I mean, the obvious one is obviously the

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KELLY BURNETT: impact on their education, the impact on

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KELLY BURNETT: their future. But I think we quite often

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KELLY BURNETT: take for granted the fact that schools
actually

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KELLY BURNETT: a safe place for them sometimes as well.

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KELLY BURNETT: It can be an escape from their home

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KELLY BURNETT: environment. And if, you know, if the home

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KELLY BURNETT: environment is the reason why they're being

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KELLY BURNETT: prevented from coming into school, you've

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KELLY BURNETT: got that knock-on effect.

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KELLY BURNETT: It's also a bit of stability for them as

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KELLY BURNETT: well, and a bit of routine. I think, you

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KELLY BURNETT: know, as we mentioned before, in terms of

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KELLY BURNETT: the impact on the pandemic and coming in and

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KELLY BURNETT: how, I think, children and young people were

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KELLY BURNETT: out of school for that period of time: they

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KELLY BURNETT: lost that sense of stability.

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KELLY BURNETT: So school can be that element of stability

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KELLY BURNETT: for them.

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JOHN ANDERTON: Many of the children who we talked to, who

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JOHN ANDERTON: are not attending school or not attending

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JOHN ANDERTON: school regularly, often describe themselves

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JOHN ANDERTON: as being socially isolated.

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JOHN ANDERTON: School does provide an opportunity to take

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JOHN ANDERTON: part in extracurricular activities and

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JOHN ANDERTON: social activities as well.

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JOHN ANDERTON: And I think children, particularly through

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JOHN ANDERTON: those formative years, will miss

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JOHN ANDERTON: out on that opportunity to develop what are

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JOHN ANDERTON: really kind of quite basic social skills

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JOHN ANDERTON: that we almost take for granted but actually

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JOHN ANDERTON: are formed during those really important

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JOHN ANDERTON: years at school.

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PRODUCER: Definitely. And I think on that point, I should

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PRODUCER: tell listeners about the NSPCC's new Building

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PRODUCER: Connections service, which helps children who

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PRODUCER: are experiencing loneliness.

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PRODUCER: My next question is: when does missing school

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PRODUCER: become a safeguarding concern?

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KELLY BURNETT: Again, I think, when school is the safe

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KELLY BURNETT: place, at home they're at risk of

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KELLY BURNETT: being exposed to things that potentially

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KELLY BURNETT: might be going on in the family home.

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KELLY BURNETT: Also, I think, it can — and I remember this

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KELLY BURNETT: from my teaching days — it's potential

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KELLY BURNETT: neglect, particularly if the parents are

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KELLY BURNETT: involved there as well, in not being able to

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KELLY BURNETT: provide, you know, that basic need that they

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KELLY BURNETT: have to attend school.

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KELLY BURNETT: And obviously with the extremes of that,

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KELLY BURNETT: you've then got the impact of potentially

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KELLY BURNETT: abusive behaviours, from people within the

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KELLY BURNETT: family, from people that they know.

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KELLY BURNETT: So in that respect, yes. This is where

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KELLY BURNETT: schools come in, in terms of picking up on

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KELLY BURNETT: those things.

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KELLY BURNETT: Picking up on those behaviours, those
changing

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KELLY BURNETT: behaviours. But that's also difficult if the

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KELLY BURNETT: child's not attending school.

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JOHN ANDERTON: We know that children who are not attending

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JOHN ANDERTON: school can become targets for abuse

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JOHN ANDERTON: and exploitation.

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JOHN ANDERTON: And also, schools are such a great...

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JOHN ANDERTON: You know, they're a source of support, of

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JOHN ANDERTON: course, school itself.

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JOHN ANDERTON: But schools are also a gateway to other

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JOHN ANDERTON: areas of support as well.

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JOHN ANDERTON: I've actually just been speaking to a

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JOHN ANDERTON: school, making a referral to a school about

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JOHN ANDERTON: a young person.

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JOHN ANDERTON: Well, on behalf of a young person, I should

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JOHN ANDERTON: say. And that was an example

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JOHN ANDERTON: where this young person did really

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JOHN ANDERTON: need help. We had some very significant

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JOHN ANDERTON: safeguarding concerns about this young

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JOHN ANDERTON: person.

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JOHN ANDERTON: The only people that this young person

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JOHN ANDERTON: would agree to us making contact with was

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JOHN ANDERTON: school. Had we needed to, we would have had

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JOHN ANDERTON: to have worked against this young person's

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JOHN ANDERTON: wishes and contacted maybe police or the

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JOHN ANDERTON: ambulance services or children's services.

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JOHN ANDERTON: But what this young person did do, because

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JOHN ANDERTON: they've got that relationship with school,

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JOHN ANDERTON: they were much more comfortable with us

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JOHN ANDERTON: talking to school on their behalf.

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JOHN ANDERTON: So, when we're talking to children who are

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JOHN ANDERTON: not attending schools, they haven't got that

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JOHN ANDERTON: healthy sort of constructive relationship

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JOHN ANDERTON: with schools.

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JOHN ANDERTON: It can be so much harder to find appropriate

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JOHN ANDERTON: help and support for that young person as

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JOHN ANDERTON: well, which then, you know, sort of

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JOHN ANDERTON: amplifies and increases any safeguarding

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JOHN ANDERTON: concerns that already exist.

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PRODUCER: You're right to highlight the vital role that

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PRODUCER: schools play in keeping children safe.

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PRODUCER: And it's really important as well to recognise

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PRODUCER: the safeguarding pressures that schools are

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PRODUCER: under. What advice would you give to education

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PRODUCER: professionals on how to support children who are

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PRODUCER: frequently missing school?

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KELLY BURNETT: I mean, I think again, from experience —

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KELLY BURNETT: more so sort of now rather than when I was

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KELLY BURNETT: teaching — there are now, there seems to be

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KELLY BURNETT: more designated teams involved.

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KELLY BURNETT: So the pastoral teams are more prominent,

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KELLY BURNETT: the safeguarding teams are more prominent.

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KELLY BURNETT: And I am aware, obviously, that some have

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KELLY BURNETT: got absence workers within schools

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KELLY BURNETT: and that kind of thing. I suppose, as well,

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KELLY BURNETT: you know, it's potentially looking for those

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KELLY BURNETT: patterns. Is there a reason why these young

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KELLY BURNETT: people are off. Are there reasons why

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KELLY BURNETT: they're off at certain points of the day.

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KELLY BURNETT: I suppose it's that multi-agency work as

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KELLY BURNETT: well, isn't it, making sure that they're
communicating

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KELLY BURNETT: with social care, if there's any involvement

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KELLY BURNETT: with them, and anything else they might

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KELLY BURNETT: know. So just making sure that, I suppose,

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KELLY BURNETT: that communication is there so that we can

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KELLY BURNETT: make sure we're there for those young people.

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JOHN ANDERTON: I would agree with that. And, I mean, I find

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JOHN ANDERTON: personally that when we work with other

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JOHN ANDERTON: agencies, a lot of the most helpful and

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JOHN ANDERTON: constructive work that we do is actually

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JOHN ANDERTON: done with schools.

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JOHN ANDERTON: And again, it's really just about schools

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JOHN ANDERTON: being alert to those signs and certainly

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JOHN ANDERTON: being willing to just sort of, you know...

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JOHN ANDERTON: We talk to people, about

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JOHN ANDERTON: acting on your hunches, you know; that if

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JOHN ANDERTON: you sense that something's not right,

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JOHN ANDERTON: then the likelihood is that something is not

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JOHN ANDERTON: right, that there is a problem there.

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JOHN ANDERTON: So, we would say to schools, as we'd say to

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JOHN ANDERTON: anybody, particularly anybody who

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JOHN ANDERTON: has regular contact with children and young

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JOHN ANDERTON: people, is to act on your gut instincts,

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JOHN ANDERTON: really. And to just sort of check.

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JOHN ANDERTON: Don't hesitate just to check.

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JOHN ANDERTON: Even if it turns out that you're wrong — and

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JOHN ANDERTON: hopefully you are wrong and there aren't any

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JOHN ANDERTON: really concerning issues going on — just

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JOHN ANDERTON: act on your hunches, you know, just take

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JOHN ANDERTON: notice of those gut feelings.

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PRODUCER: John, Kelly, thank you so much for sharing your

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PRODUCER: experiences of supporting children through

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PRODUCER: Childline.

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PRODUCER: To get a full picture of the problem of

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PRODUCER: absenteeism in schools, it's important to hear

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PRODUCER: from young people themselves.

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PRODUCER: To conclude this podcast episode, I spoke to two

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PRODUCER: members of the NSPCC's Young People's Board for

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PRODUCER: Change (YPBC), who are both currently in

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PRODUCER: secondary education.

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PRODUCER: The young people began by sharing their opinions

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PRODUCER: on why children might want to miss school.

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YPBC MEMBER 1: I think as everyone is very different,

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YPBC MEMBER 1: there is loads of reasons why a young person

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YPBC MEMBER 1: would quit school.

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YPBC MEMBER 1: For me, the reasons that I missed school

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YPBC MEMBER 1: were illness and stress

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YPBC MEMBER 1: and undiagnosed needs.

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YPBC MEMBER 1: And I think that definitely goes for a lot

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YPBC MEMBER 1: of young people — how you can

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YPBC MEMBER 1: so easily get stressed and overwhelmed by

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YPBC MEMBER 1: all of the pressures that school can put on

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YPBC MEMBER 1: you. And also peer pressure and exams

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YPBC MEMBER 1: and homework, and it can all get on top of

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YPBC MEMBER 1: you.

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YPBC MEMBER 1: It can be very stressful, and that can cause

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YPBC MEMBER 1: illness in itself.

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YPBC MEMBER 1: And, I guess, one of the big main

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YPBC MEMBER 1: things that I think schools don't really

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YPBC MEMBER 1: understand is that actually mainstream

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YPBC MEMBER 1: school might not actually be the best place

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YPBC MEMBER 1: for that individual, and school might not be

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YPBC MEMBER 1: the best place for a child.

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YPBC MEMBER 1: There are other ways of receiving an

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YPBC MEMBER 1: education that might work better for

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YPBC MEMBER 1: that child.

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YPBC MEMBER 2: I think it could just be sometimes as simple

403
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YPBC MEMBER 2: as they just don't feel like it's a nice

404
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YPBC MEMBER 2: environment to be in.

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YPBC MEMBER 2: It could be because the teachers, they don't

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YPBC MEMBER 2: feel like the teachers are kind to them, or

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YPBC MEMBER 2: they don't feel like the teachers are

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YPBC MEMBER 2: helping them or understanding them.

409
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YPBC MEMBER 2: Or it could be because of the kids and the

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YPBC MEMBER 2: other people in the school.

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YPBC MEMBER 2: That could be because they've been bullied,

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YPBC MEMBER 2: or it could just be because the kids are

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YPBC MEMBER 2: mean and just say comments sometimes.

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YPBC MEMBER 2: And it's just... I know for me some of the

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YPBC MEMBER 2: kids in the school just aren't very nice and

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YPBC MEMBER 2: they'll just say random things. And I think

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YPBC MEMBER 2: that can stick with you for the whole day.

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YPBC MEMBER 2: Just one bad experience can make the whole

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YPBC MEMBER 2: day just unenjoyable and not a nice

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YPBC MEMBER 2: place to be. And if that happens repeatedly,

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YPBC MEMBER 2: you just start to hate school and not want

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YPBC MEMBER 2: to be there. And if you get any...

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YPBC MEMBER 2: If you wake up one day with a slight

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YPBC MEMBER 2: headache, you might just take that and say,

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YPBC MEMBER 2: "sorry, I can't come in", because what's the

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YPBC MEMBER 2: point in being in school if you're just not

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YPBC MEMBER 2: enjoying it?

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PRODUCER: Absolutely, I think that sort of snowball

429
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PRODUCER: effect will be really recognisable for lots of

430
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PRODUCER: people. You both mentioned the stresses that

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PRODUCER: young people might face.

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PRODUCER: Please, can you talk a little bit more about

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PRODUCER: those stresses that might lead to young people

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PRODUCER: missing school?

435
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YPBC MEMBER 1: I think, for me, I wasn't in secondary

436
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YPBC MEMBER 1: school very long because the stress of

437
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YPBC MEMBER 1: starting was too much for me.

438
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YPBC MEMBER 1: So some of the stresses for me were, because

439
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YPBC MEMBER 1: I had a diagnosed autism, I found

440
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YPBC MEMBER 1: being in a really busy school environment,

441
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YPBC MEMBER 1: carrying loads of books, it's so noisy

442
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YPBC MEMBER 1: in stairwells and in dinner halls.

443
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YPBC MEMBER 1: It's insanely loud and

444
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YPBC MEMBER 1: it all gets on top of you.

445
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YPBC MEMBER 1: People brush past you, it's very pushy

446
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YPBC MEMBER 1: and shovey in all the corridors, and it's

447
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YPBC MEMBER 1: just generally a really overwhelming

448
00:18:05,610 --> 00:18:05,727
YPBC MEMBER 1: experience.

449
00:18:05,728 --> 00:18:08,789
YPBC MEMBER 2: I also think in class,

450
00:18:08,790 --> 00:18:11,039
YPBC MEMBER 2: when you're in class, there's so much

451
00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,409
YPBC MEMBER 2: information being thrown at you and you've

452
00:18:13,410 --> 00:18:15,569
YPBC MEMBER 2: got to sit and just listen to the teacher

453
00:18:15,570 --> 00:18:18,389
YPBC MEMBER 2: talk for such a long period of time.

454
00:18:18,390 --> 00:18:20,099
YPBC MEMBER 2: If you're someone who struggles with sitting

455
00:18:20,100 --> 00:18:22,829
YPBC MEMBER 2: still and just paying attention for long

456
00:18:22,830 --> 00:18:24,989
YPBC MEMBER 2: periods of time, you could get in trouble

457
00:18:24,990 --> 00:18:27,449
YPBC MEMBER 2: for those things. And then that makes school

458
00:18:27,450 --> 00:18:30,779
YPBC MEMBER 2: even more of a bad experience

459
00:18:30,780 --> 00:18:32,909
YPBC MEMBER 2: for you, because the teacher doesn't

460
00:18:32,910 --> 00:18:35,339
YPBC MEMBER 2: understand the fact that you're finding it

461
00:18:35,340 --> 00:18:37,469
YPBC MEMBER 2: hard to concentrate, and you might be trying

462
00:18:37,470 --> 00:18:39,869
YPBC MEMBER 2: your hardest but you're getting punished for

463
00:18:39,870 --> 00:18:42,689
YPBC MEMBER 2: those things, when you're trying to the

464
00:18:42,690 --> 00:18:45,509
YPBC MEMBER 2: highest of your capacity to listen to the

465
00:18:45,510 --> 00:18:47,159
YPBC MEMBER 2: teacher talk for that long.

466
00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:48,719
YPBC MEMBER 2: But it can just get really stressful.

467
00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:50,999
YPBC MEMBER 2: And if that's happening six times or five

468
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:52,619
YPBC MEMBER 2: times in a day because you've got that many

469
00:18:52,620 --> 00:18:55,019
YPBC MEMBER 2: lessons, it can just become really stressful

470
00:18:55,020 --> 00:18:56,399
YPBC MEMBER 2: and get on top of you.

471
00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:58,015
YPBC MEMBER 2: And then if you think you're behind in work,

472
00:18:58,016 --> 00:19:00,119
YPBC MEMBER 2: because you've not heard what's happening in

473
00:19:00,120 --> 00:19:02,579
YPBC MEMBER 2: lesson, then it just gets even worse.

474
00:19:02,580 --> 00:19:04,289
YPBC MEMBER 2: And then you don't know what to do on

475
00:19:04,290 --> 00:19:07,649
YPBC MEMBER 2: homework and you worry for tests because

476
00:19:07,650 --> 00:19:09,839
YPBC MEMBER 2: you don't understand what's happening in
class.

477
00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:12,809
YPBC MEMBER 2: It just gets very stressful and overwhelming

478
00:19:12,810 --> 00:19:13,889
YPBC MEMBER 2: for you.

479
00:19:13,890 --> 00:19:16,169
YPBC MEMBER 1: All of these stresses just build up over

480
00:19:16,170 --> 00:19:18,269
YPBC MEMBER 1: time and it's so degrading.

481
00:19:18,270 --> 00:19:21,119
YPBC MEMBER 1: You go through it day after day after day.

482
00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:24,179
YPBC MEMBER 1: And what then starts to happen is

483
00:19:24,180 --> 00:19:25,679
YPBC MEMBER 1: you just start to burnout.

484
00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,649
YPBC MEMBER 1: I think it's like one of the highest things

485
00:19:28,650 --> 00:19:31,409
YPBC MEMBER 1: in students at the moment is burnout.

486
00:19:31,410 --> 00:19:34,589
YPBC MEMBER 1: Over lockdown and through

487
00:19:34,590 --> 00:19:37,739
YPBC MEMBER 1: COVID, after that, so many

488
00:19:37,740 --> 00:19:40,079
YPBC MEMBER 1: children got diagnosed with things that

489
00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,359
YPBC MEMBER 1: hadn't been picked up in schools because

490
00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:45,179
YPBC MEMBER 1: going back to school after COVID was so

491
00:19:45,180 --> 00:19:47,198
YPBC MEMBER 1: stressful. It feels almost cruel sometimes,

492
00:19:48,750 --> 00:19:50,669
YPBC MEMBER 1: the amount of stress that young people get

493
00:19:50,670 --> 00:19:53,639
YPBC MEMBER 1: put under from schools, and it's meant

494
00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,129
YPBC MEMBER 1: to be a safe place, and it's meant to be a

495
00:19:56,130 --> 00:19:58,769
YPBC MEMBER 1: place where you're meant to learn and thrive.

496
00:19:58,770 --> 00:20:02,189
YPBC MEMBER 1: And yet, sometimes, it can be

497
00:20:02,190 --> 00:20:04,049
YPBC MEMBER 1: one of the most traumatic places to be

498
00:20:04,050 --> 00:20:06,119
YPBC MEMBER 1: because you're just put under stress day in

499
00:20:06,120 --> 00:20:07,349
YPBC MEMBER 1: and day out.

500
00:20:07,350 --> 00:20:09,869
PRODUCER: That's obviously — and I'm sure teachers will

501
00:20:09,870 --> 00:20:12,119
PRODUCER: agree — that that's not the aim of school.

502
00:20:14,010 --> 00:20:15,389
PRODUCER: School should be a place where students feel safe
and secure. What do

503
00:20:15,390 --> 00:20:18,329
PRODUCER: you think education professionals can do to make

504
00:20:18,330 --> 00:20:20,609
PRODUCER: the school environment less stressful?

505
00:20:20,610 --> 00:20:23,219
PRODUCER: Because no one wants it to be as stressful as you

506
00:20:23,220 --> 00:20:24,329
PRODUCER: describe?

507
00:20:24,330 --> 00:20:27,359
YPBC MEMBER 2: I think just talking to the people

508
00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:29,579
YPBC MEMBER 2: who are not enjoying school or who are off

509
00:20:29,580 --> 00:20:31,439
YPBC MEMBER 2: school, talking to people and their

510
00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,139
YPBC MEMBER 2: families, and just having a discussion and

511
00:20:34,140 --> 00:20:36,749
YPBC MEMBER 2: asking them why they don't feel like they

512
00:20:36,750 --> 00:20:38,699
YPBC MEMBER 2: want to come to school. What is the problem?

513
00:20:38,700 --> 00:20:40,169
YPBC MEMBER 2: What's the issue for you?

514
00:20:40,170 --> 00:20:43,019
YPBC MEMBER 2: And then figuring out a way to fix that for

515
00:20:43,020 --> 00:20:44,969
YPBC MEMBER 2: them. So, say they thought it was too

516
00:20:44,970 --> 00:20:47,939
YPBC MEMBER 2: crowded or just too loud and crazy

517
00:20:47,940 --> 00:20:50,159
YPBC MEMBER 2: and chaotic, maybe let them out of lessons

518
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:51,929
YPBC MEMBER 2: five minutes early so they go out before the

519
00:20:51,930 --> 00:20:54,929
YPBC MEMBER 2: rush of people and find a place for them

520
00:20:54,930 --> 00:20:57,089
YPBC MEMBER 2: to go during break and lunch so they don't

521
00:20:57,090 --> 00:20:59,549
YPBC MEMBER 2: have to be in a big group of people.

522
00:20:59,550 --> 00:21:02,639
YPBC MEMBER 2: And then, just talk to them and understand

523
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,039
YPBC MEMBER 2: their needs and what you can do to make them

524
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,409
YPBC MEMBER 2: feel valued and understood.

525
00:21:07,410 --> 00:21:09,689
YPBC MEMBER 1: When you're absent from school for a long

526
00:21:09,690 --> 00:21:11,969
YPBC MEMBER 1: period of time, there seems to be a big

527
00:21:11,970 --> 00:21:14,339
YPBC MEMBER 1: amount of blame. A big amount of blame that

528
00:21:14,340 --> 00:21:16,709
YPBC MEMBER 1: goes on parents and a big amount of blame

529
00:21:16,710 --> 00:21:18,089
YPBC MEMBER 1: that goes on a child.

530
00:21:18,090 --> 00:21:21,329
YPBC MEMBER 1: Because school's main objective seems to be

531
00:21:21,330 --> 00:21:23,099
YPBC MEMBER 1: getting the child back into school as soon

532
00:21:23,100 --> 00:21:25,619
YPBC MEMBER 1: as possible, rather than making sure that

533
00:21:25,620 --> 00:21:27,689
YPBC MEMBER 1: they're happy and healthy in school.

534
00:21:27,690 --> 00:21:29,729
YPBC MEMBER 1: I do feel like it is worth listening to the

535
00:21:29,730 --> 00:21:31,589
YPBC MEMBER 1: child and the parents about what the reasons

536
00:21:31,590 --> 00:21:34,049
YPBC MEMBER 1: are and trying to solve them.

537
00:21:34,050 --> 00:21:36,719
YPBC MEMBER 1: If you listen, then you might find a

538
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:38,369
YPBC MEMBER 1: solution, because the likelihood is if you

539
00:21:38,370 --> 00:21:40,679
YPBC MEMBER 1: just force them back into school without

540
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,259
YPBC MEMBER 1: listening, they'll be absent in the future

541
00:21:43,260 --> 00:21:44,999
YPBC MEMBER 1: and they won't be happy and they won't enjoy

542
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,579
YPBC MEMBER 1: learning. And that's just not the way it's

543
00:21:47,580 --> 00:21:48,869
YPBC MEMBER 1: going to work.

544
00:21:48,870 --> 00:21:51,629
YPBC MEMBER 1: So definitely listening and definitely being

545
00:21:51,630 --> 00:21:54,749
YPBC MEMBER 1: solution-focused, and working on how can

546
00:21:54,750 --> 00:21:57,899
YPBC MEMBER 1: you make the school more accessible

547
00:21:57,900 --> 00:22:00,119
YPBC MEMBER 1: for the child and how can you make it more a

548
00:22:00,120 --> 00:22:01,439
YPBC MEMBER 1: enjoyable experience for them?

549
00:22:03,030 --> 00:22:06,419
YPBC MEMBER 1: And, again, realise

550
00:22:06,420 --> 00:22:09,599
YPBC MEMBER 1: that mainstream school might not

551
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,629
YPBC MEMBER 1: be the best place and you have to

552
00:22:12,630 --> 00:22:14,729
YPBC MEMBER 1: accept that. It's nothing that's like a

553
00:22:14,730 --> 00:22:16,709
YPBC MEMBER 1: reflection on school, it's nothing like

554
00:22:16,710 --> 00:22:19,289
YPBC MEMBER 1: that. It's just being able to accept that

555
00:22:19,290 --> 00:22:23,129
YPBC MEMBER 1: actually every teacher wants

556
00:22:23,130 --> 00:22:25,364
YPBC MEMBER 1: a child to be able to learn and thrive, and

557
00:22:27,540 --> 00:22:29,249
YPBC MEMBER 1: being in mainstream school might not be the

558
00:22:29,250 --> 00:22:31,409
YPBC MEMBER 1: way that they reach their full potential.

559
00:22:31,410 --> 00:22:33,479
YPBC MEMBER 1: So I think realising that would definitely

560
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:34,480
YPBC MEMBER 1: be an improvement.

561
00:22:35,250 --> 00:22:37,769
YPBC MEMBER 2: I also think adding on to that point, just

562
00:22:37,770 --> 00:22:40,739
YPBC MEMBER 2: teaching kids where they need to go for help

563
00:22:40,740 --> 00:22:43,319
YPBC MEMBER 2: and who they need to talk to if they're

564
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:44,579
YPBC MEMBER 2: having issues.

565
00:22:44,580 --> 00:22:48,059
YPBC MEMBER 2: And some people might want a mentor

566
00:22:48,060 --> 00:22:50,669
YPBC MEMBER 2: or somebody who they can speak to — or the

567
00:22:50,670 --> 00:22:52,889
YPBC MEMBER 2: mentor can speak to them to check up on how

568
00:22:52,890 --> 00:22:56,519
YPBC MEMBER 2: they're feeling and just check on how

569
00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:57,936
YPBC MEMBER 2: school is feeling for them.

570
00:22:57,937 --> 00:22:59,789
YPBC MEMBER 2: Because then, if they have any issues, they

571
00:22:59,790 --> 00:23:01,919
YPBC MEMBER 2: can get sorted there and then, instead of it

572
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:03,809
YPBC MEMBER 2: building up and building up for them just

573
00:23:03,810 --> 00:23:05,819
YPBC MEMBER 2: not wanting to come in school completely.

574
00:23:05,820 --> 00:23:07,979
YPBC MEMBER 2: They can get rid of the issues as they

575
00:23:07,980 --> 00:23:10,709
YPBC MEMBER 2: arise, and then it shouldn't become too big

576
00:23:10,710 --> 00:23:13,199
YPBC MEMBER 2: of a thing and an issue and a stress in

577
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:14,159
YPBC MEMBER 2: school.

578
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:16,499
PRODUCER: I think that idea of a mentor is a really great

579
00:23:16,500 --> 00:23:19,049
PRODUCER: idea, having that peer support in place is

580
00:23:19,050 --> 00:23:22,229
PRODUCER: lovely. And I agree that taking steps to prevent

581
00:23:22,230 --> 00:23:25,499
PRODUCER: issues from escalating is really important too.

582
00:23:25,500 --> 00:23:28,229
PRODUCER: Before we end the podcast, are there any other

583
00:23:28,230 --> 00:23:31,619
PRODUCER: points either of you want to make on this topic?

584
00:23:31,620 --> 00:23:34,499
YPBC MEMBER 2: I just wanted to add that I think most of

585
00:23:34,500 --> 00:23:36,659
YPBC MEMBER 2: the time, the issue is just that the child's

586
00:23:36,660 --> 00:23:40,109
YPBC MEMBER 2: voice is lost in education and they just

587
00:23:40,110 --> 00:23:42,089
YPBC MEMBER 2: don't get a chance to express their needs

588
00:23:42,090 --> 00:23:45,329
YPBC MEMBER 2: and what they want to be done,

589
00:23:45,330 --> 00:23:47,609
YPBC MEMBER 2: or what their issue is so that school can

590
00:23:47,610 --> 00:23:49,679
YPBC MEMBER 2: figure out what needs to be done to keep

591
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:51,269
YPBC MEMBER 2: them in school or to bring them back to

592
00:23:51,270 --> 00:23:54,179
YPBC MEMBER 2: school. And I think just listening to the

593
00:23:54,180 --> 00:23:57,089
YPBC MEMBER 2: child and letting them tell you what's

594
00:23:57,090 --> 00:23:59,489
YPBC MEMBER 2: wrong, instead of jumping to conclusions or

595
00:23:59,490 --> 00:24:02,549
YPBC MEMBER 2: trying to figure it out, would just solve a

596
00:24:02,550 --> 00:24:05,069
YPBC MEMBER 2: lot of things. Then you can work from there

597
00:24:05,070 --> 00:24:07,409
YPBC MEMBER 2: and think, "okay, what can we do to solve

598
00:24:07,410 --> 00:24:10,319
YPBC MEMBER 2: this issue to make them want to get back to

599
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:11,159
YPBC MEMBER 2: school?".

600
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,889
YPBC MEMBER 1: What they say is incredibly valuable,

601
00:24:13,890 --> 00:24:15,389
YPBC MEMBER 1: especially if they've not been in school,

602
00:24:15,390 --> 00:24:18,659
YPBC MEMBER 1: because this is probably the first time

603
00:24:18,660 --> 00:24:20,669
YPBC MEMBER 1: that they will have spoken to anyone about

604
00:24:20,670 --> 00:24:22,049
YPBC MEMBER 1: difficulties.

605
00:24:22,050 --> 00:24:25,229
YPBC MEMBER 1: And making yourself available to talk to

606
00:24:25,230 --> 00:24:27,299
YPBC MEMBER 1: and approachable is probably one of the most

607
00:24:27,300 --> 00:24:30,089
YPBC MEMBER 1: valuable things you can give to the child.

608
00:24:30,090 --> 00:24:33,149
YPBC MEMBER 1: And I know that if I'd had a teacher that

609
00:24:33,150 --> 00:24:35,819
YPBC MEMBER 1: sat down and listened to me, if I was able

610
00:24:35,820 --> 00:24:38,679
YPBC MEMBER 1: to talk, then that probably would have saved

611
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:40,589
YPBC MEMBER 1: an awful lot of trouble.

612
00:24:40,590 --> 00:24:43,229
PRODUCER: And I think that point on the importance of

613
00:24:43,230 --> 00:24:46,259
PRODUCER: listening to young people is really key, and it's

614
00:24:46,260 --> 00:24:48,959
PRODUCER: the perfect final message to end our discussion

615
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,019
PRODUCER: with. Thank you both so much for sharing so

616
00:24:52,020 --> 00:24:54,929
PRODUCER: candidly and so honestly your thoughts on this

617
00:24:54,930 --> 00:24:57,809
PRODUCER: topic. I really benefited from listening to what

618
00:24:57,810 --> 00:24:59,969
PRODUCER: you've had to say, and I'm sure our audience of

619
00:24:59,970 --> 00:25:03,209
PRODUCER: the podcast will as well, so thank you.

620
00:25:03,210 --> 00:25:06,269
PRODUCER: And thank you also to Janet Hinton, John Anderton

621
00:25:06,270 --> 00:25:09,479
PRODUCER: and Kelly Burnett for their contributions.

622
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:11,429
PRODUCER: If you'd like to learn more about safeguarding

623
00:25:11,430 --> 00:25:13,709
PRODUCER: children and young people in schools, you can

624
00:25:13,710 --> 00:25:16,829
PRODUCER: find a range of resources on the NSPCC learning

625
00:25:16,830 --> 00:25:19,529
PRODUCER: website, and we'll link to some of those in the

626
00:25:19,530 --> 00:25:21,239
PRODUCER: podcast show notes.

627
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:22,240
PRODUCER: Thanks for listening.

628
00:25:26,260 --> 00:25:29,919
OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning podcast.

629
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,799
OUTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content was

630
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,439
OUTRO: up to date, but the world of safeguarding and child

631
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:36,440
OUTRO: protection is ever-changing.

632
00:25:37,510 --> 00:25:39,609
OUTRO: So, if you're looking for the most current

633
00:25:39,610 --> 00:25:42,339
OUTRO: safeguarding and child protection training,

634
00:25:42,340 --> 00:25:45,309
OUTRO: information or resources, please visit

635
00:25:45,310 --> 00:25:47,637
OUTRO: our website for professionals at

636
00:25:47,638 --> 00:25:48,638
OUTRO: nspcc.org.uk/learning.