INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where
INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child protection
INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation.
INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and
INTRO: share good practice on how we can all work together
INTRO: to keep babies, children and young people safe.
PRODUCER: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast.
PRODUCER: This episode, recorded at the end of 2023
PRODUCER: and the beginning of 2024, is all about
PRODUCER: absenteeism in schools.
PRODUCER: Since the COVID-19 pandemic, pupil absence rates
PRODUCER: in schools have increased across the UK, with
PRODUCER: hundreds of thousands of children persistently
PRODUCER: absent from school.
PRODUCER: Education is a vital part of ensuring children
PRODUCER: get the best possible start in life, and there
PRODUCER: can also be safeguarding implications for
PRODUCER: children who are absent from school.
PRODUCER: This podcast episode will look at what those
PRODUCER: implications may be and what schools can do to
PRODUCER: support children who are persistently absent.
PRODUCER: You'll also hear two secondary school students
PRODUCER: share their thoughts on how the stresses and
PRODUCER: strains of school life can affect attendance.
PRODUCER: But first, I asked Janet Hinton, the NSPCC's
PRODUCER: Strategic Service Manager for schools,
PRODUCER: to explain what we mean by absenteeism.
JANET HINTON: So, school absenteeism would be when a child
JANET HINTON: or young person who is of a compulsory school
JANET HINTON: age is absent from school.
JANET HINTON: You will also hear terms that children are
JANET HINTON: missing from education, and that refers to
JANET HINTON: children who are not registered at school,
JANET HINTON: but they're not receiving suitable home
JANET HINTON: education either. And that's quite a
JANET HINTON: different group to children who are
JANET HINTON: persistently absent from school.
PRODUCER: And what does that term 'persistently absent'
PRODUCER: mean?
JANET HINTON: Yeah. So across England, Wales and Scotland,
JANET HINTON: the term 'persistent absence' is used to
JANET HINTON: describe children who miss 10% or more of
JANET HINTON: possible school sessions.
JANET HINTON: And in Northern Ireland the term 'chronic
JANET HINTON: absence' is used.
JANET HINTON: So although the terms across regions and
JANET HINTON: nations are different, the consistent trends
JANET HINTON: since the COVID-19 pandemic are the numbers
JANET HINTON: of students who are persistently absent has
JANET HINTON: really risen. So in 2022-2023,
JANET HINTON: 21% of pupils were persistent absentees in
JANET HINTON: England, 18% of pupils in Wales and
JANET HINTON: roughly a third in both Scotland and Northern
JANET HINTON: Ireland. We know it's complex and complicated
JANET HINTON: and that certain groups of children are much
JANET HINTON: more likely to be absent than others.
JANET HINTON: So that does include young people
JANET HINTON: with special educational needs and
JANET HINTON: disabilities, young people with mental health
JANET HINTON: problems, young carers.
JANET HINTON: There's lots of different reasons that
JANET HINTON: children could be absent from schools, and
JANET HINTON: lots of different things going on in their
JANET HINTON: lives that might affect how likely they are
JANET HINTON: to be absent from school for either a fixed
JANET HINTON: period of time, or for a long period of time
JANET HINTON: throughout their school career or their time
JANET HINTON: at school. So children with a history of
JANET HINTON: exclusion or absence, or young people in
JANET HINTON: care, and those who have a social worker,
JANET HINTON: might be more at risk of persistent
JANET HINTON: absenteeism than some other groups of young
JANET HINTON: people.
PRODUCER: So we know that some children are more at risk.
PRODUCER: And we also know that although there are lots of
PRODUCER: good reasons why children might miss school —
PRODUCER: they might be ill, they might have medical
PRODUCER: appointments, etc.
PRODUCER: — there are obviously safeguarding implications
PRODUCER: for children who are persistently missing school.
PRODUCER: Please can you describe what those are and what
PRODUCER: they may look like?
JANET HINTON: Yeah. You're absolutely right to say that the
JANET HINTON: reasons that young people might be
JANET HINTON: persistently absent from school are really
JANET HINTON: wide-ranging, and it's really important to be
JANET HINTON: non-judgmental about for what those reasons
JANET HINTON: might be and recognise that there is
JANET HINTON: safeguarding implications when a child or
JANET HINTON: young person is persistently absent.
JANET HINTON: We know that schools are protective
JANET HINTON: spaces. School staff are in a really
JANET HINTON: excellent position to know young people,
JANET HINTON: to see them every day, to identify
JANET HINTON: safeguarding concerns early and to really
JANET HINTON: provide support to children where they need,
JANET HINTON: to stop concerns from escalating.
JANET HINTON: So if children are absent from that space,
JANET HINTON: the ability that schools have to carry out
JANET HINTON: that protective function is really impaired.
JANET HINTON: And although, as we said, there are
JANET HINTON: wide-ranging reasons that young people are
JANET HINTON: absent, there may be underlying safeguarding
JANET HINTON: reasons why a child is missing from school.
JANET HINTON: So in some instances, poor attendance could
JANET HINTON: be a sign of abuse or neglect.
JANET HINTON: And there's definitely a risk of serious harm
JANET HINTON: when this isn't picked up. And in that sense,
JANET HINTON: school acts as one really important place
JANET HINTON: where safeguarding concerns can be
JANET HINTON: identified, but also that they can be acted
JANET HINTON: on and that young people can be kept safe.
PRODUCER: And finally, what can schools do to prevent
PRODUCER: absenteeism and to support children who are
PRODUCER: persistently absent?
JANET HINTON: Schools take their responsibility to monitor
JANET HINTON: students absence really seriously.
JANET HINTON: When a child does fail to attend school
JANET HINTON: without explanation, their absence should be
JANET HINTON: investigated as part of the school's
JANET HINTON: safeguarding responsibility.
JANET HINTON: So the school does have, for example,
JANET HINTON: responsibility to inform the local authority
JANET HINTON: of any students who fail to attend school
JANET HINTON: regularly, or miss ten school days or more
JANET HINTON: without permission.
JANET HINTON: In terms of trying to keep young people
JANET HINTON: in school as much as possible and to be able
JANET HINTON: to use schools as a safe place, schools also
JANET HINTON: work really hard to make sure that they
JANET HINTON: support children who might be reluctant to
JANET HINTON: attend school and to work with young people
JANET HINTON: and their families as well.
JANET HINTON: For example, the amount of pastoral support
JANET HINTON: and the ways that young people can be brought
JANET HINTON: back into school at their own pace —
JANET HINTON: including things like reasonable adjustments,
JANET HINTON: phased returns, providing students
JANET HINTON: and families with regular check-ins — there's
JANET HINTON: lots of things that school can do to make
JANET HINTON: attendance at school easier for
JANET HINTON: young people and families, and to really work
JANET HINTON: with children and families where they are
JANET HINTON: without feeling judged.
JANET HINTON: And I think that, you know, children who have
JANET HINTON: been absent for a long time sometimes need
JANET HINTON: really gradual, really tailored support plans
JANET HINTON: to bring them back into school in a way
JANET HINTON: that's really supportive and beneficial to
JANET HINTON: them. And in a way that not only keeps them
JANET HINTON: safer, but bolsters their confidence as well.
PRODUCER: One place that children can turn to for support
PRODUCER: if they're struggling with anything, including
PRODUCER: school, is Childline.
PRODUCER: John Anderton and Kelly Burnett are Childline
PRODUCER: supervisors who respond to calls from children
PRODUCER: and listen to their concerns.
PRODUCER: I sat down with them both to discuss what they've
PRODUCER: learnt about why children are missing school.
JOHN ANDERTON: I would say predominantly the reasons we
JOHN ANDERTON: hear about most commonly are issues sort
JOHN ANDERTON: of outside the more obvious medical,
JOHN ANDERTON: health-related reasons, really.
JOHN ANDERTON: Other related problems — which we are
JOHN ANDERTON: probably more inclined to hear about —
JOHN ANDERTON: include things that are going on at school,
JOHN ANDERTON: perhaps maybe bullying; or some sort of
JOHN ANDERTON: anxiety or depression; mental
JOHN ANDERTON: health issues that might be impacting
JOHN ANDERTON: school and the performance at school; family
JOHN ANDERTON: problems; it could be that the young person
JOHN ANDERTON: has developed, for whatever reason, a
JOHN ANDERTON: generally quite negative attitude towards
JOHN ANDERTON: school; all sorts of reasons, really.
JOHN ANDERTON: We do know that school attendance, certainly
JOHN ANDERTON: since the pandemic, has been an issue.
KELLY BURNETT: I think also it's worth bearing in mind
KELLY BURNETT: parental concerns. You know, the parent
KELLY BURNETT: opinion on things.
KELLY BURNETT: That it's potentially more to do with the
KELLY BURNETT: parents than it is to do with young people.
KELLY BURNETT: Quite often we can hear from young people
KELLY BURNETT: who talk about wanting to go to school, but
KELLY BURNETT: their parents are scared that, you know,
KELLY BURNETT: history is going to repeat itself and that's
KELLY BURNETT: preventing that as well. So yeah, I suppose
KELLY BURNETT: it's about considering those options as
KELLY BURNETT: well. But I think John's absolutely right in
KELLY BURNETT: terms of the impact since the pandemic.
KELLY BURNETT: You know, certainly seems to have escalated
KELLY BURNETT: and again, in line with all of the mental
KELLY BURNETT: health concerns as well.
JOHN ANDERTON: And I think sometimes we kind of forget just
JOHN ANDERTON: how long the disruption from the pandemic
JOHN ANDERTON: actually lasted in terms of school.
JOHN ANDERTON: And I think that for some of the children
JOHN ANDERTON: who have started to miss school since the
JOHN ANDERTON: pandemic, it can be a question of
JOHN ANDERTON: it's kind of broken that momentum, if you
JOHN ANDERTON: like, of going to school.
JOHN ANDERTON: It's almost as if children had to get back
JOHN ANDERTON: into the habit almost of going to school.
JOHN ANDERTON: Plus, I think it's exacerbated some of the
JOHN ANDERTON: problems that might already have existed at
JOHN ANDERTON: home as well. I think some of those may have
JOHN ANDERTON: come to the fore during the pandemic.
JOHN ANDERTON: And, I mean, we know, don't we,
JOHN ANDERTON: unfortunately, that lockdowns and
JOHN ANDERTON: the things that happened during the pandemic
JOHN ANDERTON: did have an impact on anxiety levels, on
JOHN ANDERTON: depression levels — not just for children,
JOHN ANDERTON: of course, but for everybody, adults as
JOHN ANDERTON: well. So it could be what we're actually
JOHN ANDERTON: seeing is symptomatic of that.
PRODUCER: Absolutely. I think it's impossible to ignore the
PRODUCER: impact of COVID on school attendance.
PRODUCER: We've touched on this a bit already in the
PRODUCER: podcast, but why is school attendance so
PRODUCER: important for children?
KELLY BURNETT: I mean, the obvious one is obviously the
KELLY BURNETT: impact on their education, the impact on
KELLY BURNETT: their future. But I think we quite often
KELLY BURNETT: take for granted the fact that schools actually
KELLY BURNETT: a safe place for them sometimes as well.
KELLY BURNETT: It can be an escape from their home
KELLY BURNETT: environment. And if, you know, if the home
KELLY BURNETT: environment is the reason why they're being
KELLY BURNETT: prevented from coming into school, you've
KELLY BURNETT: got that knock-on effect.
KELLY BURNETT: It's also a bit of stability for them as
KELLY BURNETT: well, and a bit of routine. I think, you
KELLY BURNETT: know, as we mentioned before, in terms of
KELLY BURNETT: the impact on the pandemic and coming in and
KELLY BURNETT: how, I think, children and young people were
KELLY BURNETT: out of school for that period of time: they
KELLY BURNETT: lost that sense of stability.
KELLY BURNETT: So school can be that element of stability
KELLY BURNETT: for them.
JOHN ANDERTON: Many of the children who we talked to, who
JOHN ANDERTON: are not attending school or not attending
JOHN ANDERTON: school regularly, often describe themselves
JOHN ANDERTON: as being socially isolated.
JOHN ANDERTON: School does provide an opportunity to take
JOHN ANDERTON: part in extracurricular activities and
JOHN ANDERTON: social activities as well.
JOHN ANDERTON: And I think children, particularly through
JOHN ANDERTON: those formative years, will miss
JOHN ANDERTON: out on that opportunity to develop what are
JOHN ANDERTON: really kind of quite basic social skills
JOHN ANDERTON: that we almost take for granted but actually
JOHN ANDERTON: are formed during those really important
JOHN ANDERTON: years at school.
PRODUCER: Definitely. And I think on that point, I should
PRODUCER: tell listeners about the NSPCC's new Building
PRODUCER: Connections service, which helps children who
PRODUCER: are experiencing loneliness.
PRODUCER: My next question is: when does missing school
PRODUCER: become a safeguarding concern?
KELLY BURNETT: Again, I think, when school is the safe
KELLY BURNETT: place, at home they're at risk of
KELLY BURNETT: being exposed to things that potentially
KELLY BURNETT: might be going on in the family home.
KELLY BURNETT: Also, I think, it can — and I remember this
KELLY BURNETT: from my teaching days — it's potential
KELLY BURNETT: neglect, particularly if the parents are
KELLY BURNETT: involved there as well, in not being able to
KELLY BURNETT: provide, you know, that basic need that they
KELLY BURNETT: have to attend school.
KELLY BURNETT: And obviously with the extremes of that,
KELLY BURNETT: you've then got the impact of potentially
KELLY BURNETT: abusive behaviours, from people within the
KELLY BURNETT: family, from people that they know.
KELLY BURNETT: So in that respect, yes. This is where
KELLY BURNETT: schools come in, in terms of picking up on
KELLY BURNETT: those things.
KELLY BURNETT: Picking up on those behaviours, those changing
KELLY BURNETT: behaviours. But that's also difficult if the
KELLY BURNETT: child's not attending school.
JOHN ANDERTON: We know that children who are not attending
JOHN ANDERTON: school can become targets for abuse
JOHN ANDERTON: and exploitation.
JOHN ANDERTON: And also, schools are such a great...
JOHN ANDERTON: You know, they're a source of support, of
JOHN ANDERTON: course, school itself.
JOHN ANDERTON: But schools are also a gateway to other
JOHN ANDERTON: areas of support as well.
JOHN ANDERTON: I've actually just been speaking to a
JOHN ANDERTON: school, making a referral to a school about
JOHN ANDERTON: a young person.
JOHN ANDERTON: Well, on behalf of a young person, I should
JOHN ANDERTON: say. And that was an example
JOHN ANDERTON: where this young person did really
JOHN ANDERTON: need help. We had some very significant
JOHN ANDERTON: safeguarding concerns about this young
JOHN ANDERTON: person.
JOHN ANDERTON: The only people that this young person
JOHN ANDERTON: would agree to us making contact with was
JOHN ANDERTON: school. Had we needed to, we would have had
JOHN ANDERTON: to have worked against this young person's
JOHN ANDERTON: wishes and contacted maybe police or the
JOHN ANDERTON: ambulance services or children's services.
JOHN ANDERTON: But what this young person did do, because
JOHN ANDERTON: they've got that relationship with school,
JOHN ANDERTON: they were much more comfortable with us
JOHN ANDERTON: talking to school on their behalf.
JOHN ANDERTON: So, when we're talking to children who are
JOHN ANDERTON: not attending schools, they haven't got that
JOHN ANDERTON: healthy sort of constructive relationship
JOHN ANDERTON: with schools.
JOHN ANDERTON: It can be so much harder to find appropriate
JOHN ANDERTON: help and support for that young person as
JOHN ANDERTON: well, which then, you know, sort of
JOHN ANDERTON: amplifies and increases any safeguarding
JOHN ANDERTON: concerns that already exist.
PRODUCER: You're right to highlight the vital role that
PRODUCER: schools play in keeping children safe.
PRODUCER: And it's really important as well to recognise
PRODUCER: the safeguarding pressures that schools are
PRODUCER: under. What advice would you give to education
PRODUCER: professionals on how to support children who are
PRODUCER: frequently missing school?
KELLY BURNETT: I mean, I think again, from experience —
KELLY BURNETT: more so sort of now rather than when I was
KELLY BURNETT: teaching — there are now, there seems to be
KELLY BURNETT: more designated teams involved.
KELLY BURNETT: So the pastoral teams are more prominent,
KELLY BURNETT: the safeguarding teams are more prominent.
KELLY BURNETT: And I am aware, obviously, that some have
KELLY BURNETT: got absence workers within schools
KELLY BURNETT: and that kind of thing. I suppose, as well,
KELLY BURNETT: you know, it's potentially looking for those
KELLY BURNETT: patterns. Is there a reason why these young
KELLY BURNETT: people are off. Are there reasons why
KELLY BURNETT: they're off at certain points of the day.
KELLY BURNETT: I suppose it's that multi-agency work as
KELLY BURNETT: well, isn't it, making sure that they're communicating
KELLY BURNETT: with social care, if there's any involvement
KELLY BURNETT: with them, and anything else they might
KELLY BURNETT: know. So just making sure that, I suppose,
KELLY BURNETT: that communication is there so that we can
KELLY BURNETT: make sure we're there for those young people.
JOHN ANDERTON: I would agree with that. And, I mean, I find
JOHN ANDERTON: personally that when we work with other
JOHN ANDERTON: agencies, a lot of the most helpful and
JOHN ANDERTON: constructive work that we do is actually
JOHN ANDERTON: done with schools.
JOHN ANDERTON: And again, it's really just about schools
JOHN ANDERTON: being alert to those signs and certainly
JOHN ANDERTON: being willing to just sort of, you know...
JOHN ANDERTON: We talk to people, about
JOHN ANDERTON: acting on your hunches, you know; that if
JOHN ANDERTON: you sense that something's not right,
JOHN ANDERTON: then the likelihood is that something is not
JOHN ANDERTON: right, that there is a problem there.
JOHN ANDERTON: So, we would say to schools, as we'd say to
JOHN ANDERTON: anybody, particularly anybody who
JOHN ANDERTON: has regular contact with children and young
JOHN ANDERTON: people, is to act on your gut instincts,
JOHN ANDERTON: really. And to just sort of check.
JOHN ANDERTON: Don't hesitate just to check.
JOHN ANDERTON: Even if it turns out that you're wrong — and
JOHN ANDERTON: hopefully you are wrong and there aren't any
JOHN ANDERTON: really concerning issues going on — just
JOHN ANDERTON: act on your hunches, you know, just take
JOHN ANDERTON: notice of those gut feelings.
PRODUCER: John, Kelly, thank you so much for sharing your
PRODUCER: experiences of supporting children through
PRODUCER: Childline.
PRODUCER: To get a full picture of the problem of
PRODUCER: absenteeism in schools, it's important to hear
PRODUCER: from young people themselves.
PRODUCER: To conclude this podcast episode, I spoke to two
PRODUCER: members of the NSPCC's Young People's Board for
PRODUCER: Change (YPBC), who are both currently in
PRODUCER: secondary education.
PRODUCER: The young people began by sharing their opinions
PRODUCER: on why children might want to miss school.
YPBC MEMBER 1: I think as everyone is very different,
YPBC MEMBER 1: there is loads of reasons why a young person
YPBC MEMBER 1: would quit school.
YPBC MEMBER 1: For me, the reasons that I missed school
YPBC MEMBER 1: were illness and stress
YPBC MEMBER 1: and undiagnosed needs.
YPBC MEMBER 1: And I think that definitely goes for a lot
YPBC MEMBER 1: of young people — how you can
YPBC MEMBER 1: so easily get stressed and overwhelmed by
YPBC MEMBER 1: all of the pressures that school can put on
YPBC MEMBER 1: you. And also peer pressure and exams
YPBC MEMBER 1: and homework, and it can all get on top of
YPBC MEMBER 1: you.
YPBC MEMBER 1: It can be very stressful, and that can cause
YPBC MEMBER 1: illness in itself.
YPBC MEMBER 1: And, I guess, one of the big main
YPBC MEMBER 1: things that I think schools don't really
YPBC MEMBER 1: understand is that actually mainstream
YPBC MEMBER 1: school might not actually be the best place
YPBC MEMBER 1: for that individual, and school might not be
YPBC MEMBER 1: the best place for a child.
YPBC MEMBER 1: There are other ways of receiving an
YPBC MEMBER 1: education that might work better for
YPBC MEMBER 1: that child.
YPBC MEMBER 2: I think it could just be sometimes as simple
YPBC MEMBER 2: as they just don't feel like it's a nice
YPBC MEMBER 2: environment to be in.
YPBC MEMBER 2: It could be because the teachers, they don't
YPBC MEMBER 2: feel like the teachers are kind to them, or
YPBC MEMBER 2: they don't feel like the teachers are
YPBC MEMBER 2: helping them or understanding them.
YPBC MEMBER 2: Or it could be because of the kids and the
YPBC MEMBER 2: other people in the school.
YPBC MEMBER 2: That could be because they've been bullied,
YPBC MEMBER 2: or it could just be because the kids are
YPBC MEMBER 2: mean and just say comments sometimes.
YPBC MEMBER 2: And it's just... I know for me some of the
YPBC MEMBER 2: kids in the school just aren't very nice and
YPBC MEMBER 2: they'll just say random things. And I think
YPBC MEMBER 2: that can stick with you for the whole day.
YPBC MEMBER 2: Just one bad experience can make the whole
YPBC MEMBER 2: day just unenjoyable and not a nice
YPBC MEMBER 2: place to be. And if that happens repeatedly,
YPBC MEMBER 2: you just start to hate school and not want
YPBC MEMBER 2: to be there. And if you get any...
YPBC MEMBER 2: If you wake up one day with a slight
YPBC MEMBER 2: headache, you might just take that and say,
YPBC MEMBER 2: "sorry, I can't come in", because what's the
YPBC MEMBER 2: point in being in school if you're just not
YPBC MEMBER 2: enjoying it?
PRODUCER: Absolutely, I think that sort of snowball
PRODUCER: effect will be really recognisable for lots of
PRODUCER: people. You both mentioned the stresses that
PRODUCER: young people might face.
PRODUCER: Please, can you talk a little bit more about
PRODUCER: those stresses that might lead to young people
PRODUCER: missing school?
YPBC MEMBER 1: I think, for me, I wasn't in secondary
YPBC MEMBER 1: school very long because the stress of
YPBC MEMBER 1: starting was too much for me.
YPBC MEMBER 1: So some of the stresses for me were, because
YPBC MEMBER 1: I had a diagnosed autism, I found
YPBC MEMBER 1: being in a really busy school environment,
YPBC MEMBER 1: carrying loads of books, it's so noisy
YPBC MEMBER 1: in stairwells and in dinner halls.
YPBC MEMBER 1: It's insanely loud and
YPBC MEMBER 1: it all gets on top of you.
YPBC MEMBER 1: People brush past you, it's very pushy
YPBC MEMBER 1: and shovey in all the corridors, and it's
YPBC MEMBER 1: just generally a really overwhelming
YPBC MEMBER 1: experience.
YPBC MEMBER 2: I also think in class,
YPBC MEMBER 2: when you're in class, there's so much
YPBC MEMBER 2: information being thrown at you and you've
YPBC MEMBER 2: got to sit and just listen to the teacher
YPBC MEMBER 2: talk for such a long period of time.
YPBC MEMBER 2: If you're someone who struggles with sitting
YPBC MEMBER 2: still and just paying attention for long
YPBC MEMBER 2: periods of time, you could get in trouble
YPBC MEMBER 2: for those things. And then that makes school
YPBC MEMBER 2: even more of a bad experience
YPBC MEMBER 2: for you, because the teacher doesn't
YPBC MEMBER 2: understand the fact that you're finding it
YPBC MEMBER 2: hard to concentrate, and you might be trying
YPBC MEMBER 2: your hardest but you're getting punished for
YPBC MEMBER 2: those things, when you're trying to the
YPBC MEMBER 2: highest of your capacity to listen to the
YPBC MEMBER 2: teacher talk for that long.
YPBC MEMBER 2: But it can just get really stressful.
YPBC MEMBER 2: And if that's happening six times or five
YPBC MEMBER 2: times in a day because you've got that many
YPBC MEMBER 2: lessons, it can just become really stressful
YPBC MEMBER 2: and get on top of you.
YPBC MEMBER 2: And then if you think you're behind in work,
YPBC MEMBER 2: because you've not heard what's happening in
YPBC MEMBER 2: lesson, then it just gets even worse.
YPBC MEMBER 2: And then you don't know what to do on
YPBC MEMBER 2: homework and you worry for tests because
YPBC MEMBER 2: you don't understand what's happening in class.
YPBC MEMBER 2: It just gets very stressful and overwhelming
YPBC MEMBER 2: for you.
YPBC MEMBER 1: All of these stresses just build up over
YPBC MEMBER 1: time and it's so degrading.
YPBC MEMBER 1: You go through it day after day after day.
YPBC MEMBER 1: And what then starts to happen is
YPBC MEMBER 1: you just start to burnout.
YPBC MEMBER 1: I think it's like one of the highest things
YPBC MEMBER 1: in students at the moment is burnout.
YPBC MEMBER 1: Over lockdown and through
YPBC MEMBER 1: COVID, after that, so many
YPBC MEMBER 1: children got diagnosed with things that
YPBC MEMBER 1: hadn't been picked up in schools because
YPBC MEMBER 1: going back to school after COVID was so
YPBC MEMBER 1: stressful. It feels almost cruel sometimes,
YPBC MEMBER 1: the amount of stress that young people get
YPBC MEMBER 1: put under from schools, and it's meant
YPBC MEMBER 1: to be a safe place, and it's meant to be a
YPBC MEMBER 1: place where you're meant to learn and thrive.
YPBC MEMBER 1: And yet, sometimes, it can be
YPBC MEMBER 1: one of the most traumatic places to be
YPBC MEMBER 1: because you're just put under stress day in
YPBC MEMBER 1: and day out.
PRODUCER: That's obviously — and I'm sure teachers will
PRODUCER: agree — that that's not the aim of school.
PRODUCER: School should be a place where students feel safe and secure. What do
PRODUCER: you think education professionals can do to make
PRODUCER: the school environment less stressful?
PRODUCER: Because no one wants it to be as stressful as you
PRODUCER: describe?
YPBC MEMBER 2: I think just talking to the people
YPBC MEMBER 2: who are not enjoying school or who are off
YPBC MEMBER 2: school, talking to people and their
YPBC MEMBER 2: families, and just having a discussion and
YPBC MEMBER 2: asking them why they don't feel like they
YPBC MEMBER 2: want to come to school. What is the problem?
YPBC MEMBER 2: What's the issue for you?
YPBC MEMBER 2: And then figuring out a way to fix that for
YPBC MEMBER 2: them. So, say they thought it was too
YPBC MEMBER 2: crowded or just too loud and crazy
YPBC MEMBER 2: and chaotic, maybe let them out of lessons
YPBC MEMBER 2: five minutes early so they go out before the
YPBC MEMBER 2: rush of people and find a place for them
YPBC MEMBER 2: to go during break and lunch so they don't
YPBC MEMBER 2: have to be in a big group of people.
YPBC MEMBER 2: And then, just talk to them and understand
YPBC MEMBER 2: their needs and what you can do to make them
YPBC MEMBER 2: feel valued and understood.
YPBC MEMBER 1: When you're absent from school for a long
YPBC MEMBER 1: period of time, there seems to be a big
YPBC MEMBER 1: amount of blame. A big amount of blame that
YPBC MEMBER 1: goes on parents and a big amount of blame
YPBC MEMBER 1: that goes on a child.
YPBC MEMBER 1: Because school's main objective seems to be
YPBC MEMBER 1: getting the child back into school as soon
YPBC MEMBER 1: as possible, rather than making sure that
YPBC MEMBER 1: they're happy and healthy in school.
YPBC MEMBER 1: I do feel like it is worth listening to the
YPBC MEMBER 1: child and the parents about what the reasons
YPBC MEMBER 1: are and trying to solve them.
YPBC MEMBER 1: If you listen, then you might find a
YPBC MEMBER 1: solution, because the likelihood is if you
YPBC MEMBER 1: just force them back into school without
YPBC MEMBER 1: listening, they'll be absent in the future
YPBC MEMBER 1: and they won't be happy and they won't enjoy
YPBC MEMBER 1: learning. And that's just not the way it's
YPBC MEMBER 1: going to work.
YPBC MEMBER 1: So definitely listening and definitely being
YPBC MEMBER 1: solution-focused, and working on how can
YPBC MEMBER 1: you make the school more accessible
YPBC MEMBER 1: for the child and how can you make it more a
YPBC MEMBER 1: enjoyable experience for them?
YPBC MEMBER 1: And, again, realise
YPBC MEMBER 1: that mainstream school might not
YPBC MEMBER 1: be the best place and you have to
YPBC MEMBER 1: accept that. It's nothing that's like a
YPBC MEMBER 1: reflection on school, it's nothing like
YPBC MEMBER 1: that. It's just being able to accept that
YPBC MEMBER 1: actually every teacher wants
YPBC MEMBER 1: a child to be able to learn and thrive, and
YPBC MEMBER 1: being in mainstream school might not be the
YPBC MEMBER 1: way that they reach their full potential.
YPBC MEMBER 1: So I think realising that would definitely
YPBC MEMBER 1: be an improvement.
YPBC MEMBER 2: I also think adding on to that point, just
YPBC MEMBER 2: teaching kids where they need to go for help
YPBC MEMBER 2: and who they need to talk to if they're
YPBC MEMBER 2: having issues.
YPBC MEMBER 2: And some people might want a mentor
YPBC MEMBER 2: or somebody who they can speak to — or the
YPBC MEMBER 2: mentor can speak to them to check up on how
YPBC MEMBER 2: they're feeling and just check on how
YPBC MEMBER 2: school is feeling for them.
YPBC MEMBER 2: Because then, if they have any issues, they
YPBC MEMBER 2: can get sorted there and then, instead of it
YPBC MEMBER 2: building up and building up for them just
YPBC MEMBER 2: not wanting to come in school completely.
YPBC MEMBER 2: They can get rid of the issues as they
YPBC MEMBER 2: arise, and then it shouldn't become too big
YPBC MEMBER 2: of a thing and an issue and a stress in
YPBC MEMBER 2: school.
PRODUCER: I think that idea of a mentor is a really great
PRODUCER: idea, having that peer support in place is
PRODUCER: lovely. And I agree that taking steps to prevent
PRODUCER: issues from escalating is really important too.
PRODUCER: Before we end the podcast, are there any other
PRODUCER: points either of you want to make on this topic?
YPBC MEMBER 2: I just wanted to add that I think most of
YPBC MEMBER 2: the time, the issue is just that the child's
YPBC MEMBER 2: voice is lost in education and they just
YPBC MEMBER 2: don't get a chance to express their needs
YPBC MEMBER 2: and what they want to be done,
YPBC MEMBER 2: or what their issue is so that school can
YPBC MEMBER 2: figure out what needs to be done to keep
YPBC MEMBER 2: them in school or to bring them back to
YPBC MEMBER 2: school. And I think just listening to the
YPBC MEMBER 2: child and letting them tell you what's
YPBC MEMBER 2: wrong, instead of jumping to conclusions or
YPBC MEMBER 2: trying to figure it out, would just solve a
YPBC MEMBER 2: lot of things. Then you can work from there
YPBC MEMBER 2: and think, "okay, what can we do to solve
YPBC MEMBER 2: this issue to make them want to get back to
YPBC MEMBER 2: school?".
YPBC MEMBER 1: What they say is incredibly valuable,
YPBC MEMBER 1: especially if they've not been in school,
YPBC MEMBER 1: because this is probably the first time
YPBC MEMBER 1: that they will have spoken to anyone about
YPBC MEMBER 1: difficulties.
YPBC MEMBER 1: And making yourself available to talk to
YPBC MEMBER 1: and approachable is probably one of the most
YPBC MEMBER 1: valuable things you can give to the child.
YPBC MEMBER 1: And I know that if I'd had a teacher that
YPBC MEMBER 1: sat down and listened to me, if I was able
YPBC MEMBER 1: to talk, then that probably would have saved
YPBC MEMBER 1: an awful lot of trouble.
PRODUCER: And I think that point on the importance of
PRODUCER: listening to young people is really key, and it's
PRODUCER: the perfect final message to end our discussion
PRODUCER: with. Thank you both so much for sharing so
PRODUCER: candidly and so honestly your thoughts on this
PRODUCER: topic. I really benefited from listening to what
PRODUCER: you've had to say, and I'm sure our audience of
PRODUCER: the podcast will as well, so thank you.
PRODUCER: And thank you also to Janet Hinton, John Anderton
PRODUCER: and Kelly Burnett for their contributions.
PRODUCER: If you'd like to learn more about safeguarding
PRODUCER: children and young people in schools, you can
PRODUCER: find a range of resources on the NSPCC learning
PRODUCER: website, and we'll link to some of those in the
PRODUCER: podcast show notes.
PRODUCER: Thanks for listening.
OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning podcast.
OUTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content was
OUTRO: up to date, but the world of safeguarding and child
OUTRO: protection is ever-changing.
OUTRO: So, if you're looking for the most current
OUTRO: safeguarding and child protection training,
OUTRO: information or resources, please visit
OUTRO: our website for professionals at
OUTRO: nspcc.org.uk/learning.