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Maisie: Page 94, the Private Eye Podcast

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Andy: Hello and welcome to another episode
of Page 94, the Private Eye Podcast.

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My name's Andrew Hunter Murray,
and I'm here in the Eyes Offices.

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Joined as always by Helen
Lewis and Adam McQueen.

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Uh, Ian's away this week.

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So we're gonna trash the place.

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So we've got a few things that have
been either in the mag or in the

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news since the last mag, or that
might be coming up in the next mag.

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And thing.

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One that has been actually all
over the place is defection time.

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Which of us is going to defect to
the Spectator who can say, yeah, some

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faces being pulled at prospective.

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I did write quite a

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Helen: rude piece about the
Spectator quite recently.

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I think they might not be that keen
to have me, they might be even less

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keen to have me than the Labour
Party was to have Natalie Elick.

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Andy: Yes.

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So Natalie Elick, um, Dover, was it Dover?

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And, um, she's a Labour,
she's a Labour MP now.

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And that's, that's fine.

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Or it's not.

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And it's dreadful.

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Adam: the most profound question I've
heard on this entire topic came from

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my husband last week when she was on
the news standing next to Kiss Armor.

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And you said, why is she
dressed as an air hostess?

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Helen: It was very BA cabinetry.

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Really?

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He was, wasn't it?

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She had this red, white, and blue
knotted scarf, and I thought, that

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looks, she looks like she's gonna ask
me if I want a gin to, can we answer?

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Yes.

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But yeah.

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Yeah.

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So she was married to Charlie Elit,
the previous, uh, MP for Dover.

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He was then accused, uh, by, of
sexual offenses, by multiple women.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, launched a liable action
against the Sunday Times about

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the reporting of these claims.

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Uh, went on trial for a different
offense to that was convicted.

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At that point, even the Tory party
went, well, you're probably gonna

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have to probably have to kinda
give up the seat now, aren't you?

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She ran for it, won it, and has
now since defected to Labour.

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There was some good stuff in the paper
over the weekend by Robert Buckland, the

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former Justice Secretary, saying, well
actually, you know, she came to me and she

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said some terrible things about couldn't
I sort out getting a different judge and

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I mean, she's all terrible and she'd be an
investigation into it and everyone went.

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Wow.

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That sounds like something that
was also a scandal last week

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when she was a tour MP Robert.

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Adam: This woman's dreadful.

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No, but this is the great mistake that
people make when they defect is they

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forget that there's a whips office
in their old party that's got a big

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book on them and it's got all of that
stuff in that we, they were, they

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were protecting them over and taking
care of them over up until this point.

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But now it's just gonna
be open season, isn't it?

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Andy: The thing, the thing I.

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Think most surprising about the
whipping operation is that Gil

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Brandeth was ever part of it.

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He was a junior whip, wasn't he?

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When he was.

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It just does seem slightly
extraordinary, doesn't it?

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And I think Matthew

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Helen: par, well, the man would
at least trust with secrets.

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I like the idea being summon to see
Giles Brandreth and one of his comedy

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juMPers and himself absolute like,

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Adam: can we go back to
defections then, please?

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Right, yes.

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The bizarre thing I think about Natalie
Alpha is the, uh, the case that, that,

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that Helen has just, um, just outlined is.

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The one thing she's known for.

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And I don't think any, presumably
the thinking as far as it went in

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kiss arm's head was MP, fed Dover.

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Lots of stuff to say about small boats.

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Therefore I will look tough on
immigration, which is a good, um, good

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message to be sending out to Tory voters
who were thinking of switching sides

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and other people who were concerned
about, uh, illegal immigration.

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Helen: Yeah.

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I also think when the fact that she wasn't
kicked outta the Tory party for any of the

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defending her husband post sexual offenses
convictions suggests that they don't

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care that much about it and they don't
think she's done anything that wrong.

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Mm-Hmm.

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So I think the calculation
on the Labour side was.

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Having someone who's the MP for
small boats saying, Rishi Sinek

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small boats plan has failed.

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Brilliant win.

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And no one normal will really pay
attention to all of this stuff.

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But it's also, it was

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Adam: the second time she's been in
trouble over the, uh, trying to interfere

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in her husband's court case, isn't it?

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Because she, she was suspended along
with three other, to MPs, uh, from the

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commons for a while, for sending in
a letter to the judge, um, atteMPting

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to influence the judge's decision.

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Yes.

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Which is a fairly major
scandal to have behind you.

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And again, we think makes it not an ideal.

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Person to recruit to your party.

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But

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Andy: it's exactly as Helen says,
parties are in this constant state

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of triangulation between what's
going to appeal to their members.

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Mm-Hmm.

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Uh, their MPs and their voters and all,
and all sorts of different constituencies

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have to be played against each other.

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And clearly the idea is, I
think there was a good article

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about this by Patrick McGuire.

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He said, Labour is siMPly
prioritizing the voter.

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Above absolutely anything else, no
matter how much it annoys members

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of the party, no matter how much it
annoys the MPs, which is a case you can

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make in an election year, I suppose.

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Oh, it's

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Helen: grubby.

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I mean it's grubby, but
it's probably effective.

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And they've had under Morgan
McSweeney's the kind of um,

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Emin Re of the Starmer project.

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Andy: The Svengali, yeah,

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Helen: exactly.

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He is very much, um, they've had this
whole idea about the hero voters,

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which are Tory to Labour switches.

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And so, um, Tom Hamilton used to work for
Labour at very good Substack post about

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this, and Dan Pooler the previous, um.

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Defection saying what they want to do
more than anything star wants to do

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is say if you voted Tory last time.

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Lots of people like you are now switching.

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That's not a weird or
abnormal thing to do.

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It doesn't say you were wrong last time.

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It says the Labour party changed
and you've, you know, you've had

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a crappy time, and this version
of the toy party isn't for you.

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So they want to normalize the idea of
moving from the torries to Labour, and

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that's part of the defection strategy.

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Andy: It's a very different.

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Tactic to Labour strategy last time.

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One, which is, why don't you
go off and join the Tories?

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Mm.

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You love them so much

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Helen: and, and low andhold people
did, people didn't work out so well.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Andy: Okay.

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I, I wonder on the de defect thing,
is there a, what if all, what if

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all the conservative MPs decided
they wanted to switch to Labour?

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Is that a legitimate way
of winning an election?

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I appreciate it's probably quite
unlikely to happen, but basically

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Helen: at the point that Rishi Sun devotes
to Labour, I think you to get the is up

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Andy: actually, if you just get a majority
by means of another 40 MPs switching

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conservative to Labour, you then have
the majority in the House of Commons.

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What happens then?

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It'll be quite an ask.

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I mean, it's

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Adam: quite rare that people
cross the floor, isn't it?

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I'm getting another 40.

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I are there actually enough left.

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'cause most of 'em have said
they're stepping down in the next

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election anyway, aren't they?

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That's true.

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And the same true in both of these cases.

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Danter and Natalie Alfi both said.

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That's it.

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We are not standing again for
Labour in the next election, which

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you know, is probably a good idea.

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Yeah.

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Because I think that is a point where
the voters in Dover would say, on

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both sides would say, well, hang on,
I think we've had enough of this.

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This is a bit off.

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And the

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Helen: CLPs, the constituency Labour
parties, particularly in the case of

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Natalie Alfred, the clp is not happy.

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Should I tell you the boring
answer to your question, which

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is that a Prime minister governs
by being able to pass confidence

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and supply motions in the house.

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So Rishi Sinek would run a minority, uh,
administration with whatever Tory MPs he

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had left, at which point he would try and.

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Either the opposition parties would try
and put through a no confidence motion.

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If he lost that the government fell,
he'd have to go to the palace, or

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he'd try and put a budget through.

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And if that failed, that would
be treated as a confidence issue.

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So he, but he could carry, even if
there was just him and Jacob in a

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committee room somewhere, he could
try and carry on and just try and get

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through votes on an individual basis.

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And this

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Adam: effectively, sorry to come on
All Adam's history corner on this.

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we've agreed we're have some loot music
whenever we do Adam's History Corner.

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Matt, the producer is not
looking happy about this

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All: fuming, but

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Adam: that was effectively what was
going on in the last, uh, couple of

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years of John Major's, uh, administration
was that it wasn't, there were a few

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people who crossed the floor, but
um, also it was mostly by elections.

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That and kicking people out over.

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Um, votes on mastery and things.

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He ended up running a,
a, a minority government.

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He, he didn't actually have a
full majority to get votes through

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and had to do it on various
kind of confidence and supply.

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Mm-Hmm.

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Arrangements with the
Democratic unionist party.

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I think it was at that point, wasn't it?

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Uncle Bless Paisley and people, yeah.

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Andy: Presumably using Giles Brandreth
and his, his dastardly whipping operation.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Which was so effective,
as we can clearly see.

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At that point, he'll tell you an anecdote
about the queen and then he'll hit

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you with the stuff they've got on you.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Um, okay,

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so there have been rumblings, murmurings
that this is gonna happen again before

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the election because Dan Pool was a
fortnight ago, or three weeks ago.

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Natalie Vic was a week before
we were recording this podcast.

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Are we seeing a point where I.

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The event horizon is
slowly getting closer.

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We're gonna see a Dr.

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An hourly drumbeat, uh, of defections.

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Or is this not gonna happen anymore?

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Helen: I think it's very unlikely because
defections are relatively unusual.

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What you've got instead is lots
of tour MPs just going, I've seen

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enough like the Queen with Liz Trust.

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I've seen enough, I'm out.

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Um, so I think that's
more likely to happen.

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But you know, it, the momentum
would be, I mean, label would

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love to keep the momentum going.

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Do you remember the heady
autumn summer when people kept

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effecting to the Lib Dems?

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Do you remember the No, I

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Andy: actually don't.

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I might have remember
holiday or so do remember.

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Do

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Helen: you remember Tig?

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Andy: I do remember the, the TERs.

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The, the independent group.

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Helen: The independent group always

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Andy: made me a teeth hitch bit.

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The fact that the T was
part of the acronym.

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I didn't like it.

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Helen: Well, the, yeah, but otherwise
it sounds like a racial slur.

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So I think I can see
why they didn't do that.

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But, um, but then, you know, Luciana
Berger went and took Rama went,

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uh, various people went and, and
there was a kind of in the run

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up to their conference season.

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They kept going and welcome to
the Lib Democrat, Sam Gemma, and

238
00:08:27,127 --> 00:08:28,447
everyone went, who's Sam Gemma?

239
00:08:28,507 --> 00:08:28,957
Adam: Mm.

240
00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:29,740
Helen: that's what happened.

241
00:08:29,740 --> 00:08:32,530
And I think probably if you
were ki Dmi, you'd want another

242
00:08:32,530 --> 00:08:33,970
couple before conference season.

243
00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:36,580
But again, you do need them
to be people where you say,

244
00:08:36,580 --> 00:08:37,510
welcome to the Labour Party.

245
00:08:37,510 --> 00:08:39,190
I mean, did you see the
great funny graphics?

246
00:08:39,190 --> 00:08:40,540
I, people would, making fake ones.

247
00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:42,580
Welcome to the Labour
Party, Barron Harken.

248
00:08:42,670 --> 00:08:47,320
Oh, you have to be, you know, somebody
who your, your back bench is greet with a

249
00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:49,030
certain level of appreciation and respect.

250
00:08:49,030 --> 00:08:50,800
Otherwise, it's not, it's not quite.

251
00:08:51,545 --> 00:08:52,085
So exciting.

252
00:08:53,346 --> 00:08:56,076
Adam: I mean, Dan Polter was not
exactly a household name prior to

253
00:08:56,226 --> 00:08:57,276
defecting a couple of weeks ago.

254
00:08:57,276 --> 00:08:57,576
Was it?

255
00:08:57,666 --> 00:08:57,996
Well.

256
00:08:58,431 --> 00:08:59,691
Andy: Depending on which paper you read.

257
00:08:59,721 --> 00:09:04,011
He was either a, a senior conservative
and former minister, or he was a

258
00:09:04,011 --> 00:09:05,271
nobody, and we've never heard of him.

259
00:09:05,271 --> 00:09:06,591
We didn't need him in the party anyway.

260
00:09:06,621 --> 00:09:09,171
It's always my absolute favorite
nonsense journalistic phrase

261
00:09:09,171 --> 00:09:10,671
Adam: is a senior back bencher.

262
00:09:11,061 --> 00:09:14,571
It's like, unless you are actually
talking about Peter Bottomley,

263
00:09:14,571 --> 00:09:15,681
who is the father of the house.

264
00:09:16,451 --> 00:09:19,091
Then, you know, they, they enter
unless they're really quite old,

265
00:09:19,241 --> 00:09:21,551
you just say, yeah, there is no
such thing as a senior back bencher.

266
00:09:21,701 --> 00:09:22,091
Yeah.

267
00:09:22,096 --> 00:09:22,246
Helen: Yeah.

268
00:09:22,301 --> 00:09:24,431
But that's like, I mean, there's a
version of irregular verb, isn't it?

269
00:09:24,431 --> 00:09:26,681
When I worked to the New Statesman
that you either used to be, or Wells

270
00:09:26,681 --> 00:09:30,671
magazine, or it used to be like the House
Journal of the Left, or it used to be

271
00:09:30,676 --> 00:09:35,171
kind of, you know, small circulation,
socialist rag, and I'm sure a version

272
00:09:35,171 --> 00:09:37,961
of ham, a private eye as well too,
depending on what, on what, whether or

273
00:09:37,966 --> 00:09:39,371
not people agree with what you're doing.

274
00:09:39,431 --> 00:09:39,821
Andy: Yeah.

275
00:09:39,941 --> 00:09:41,206
Helen: Do you know what
I wish we had Andy?

276
00:09:41,601 --> 00:09:42,831
I wish we had some kind of quiz.

277
00:09:43,611 --> 00:09:44,061
Andy: Me too,

278
00:09:44,061 --> 00:09:44,721
Adam: actually.

279
00:09:44,751 --> 00:09:45,831
Yeah, that would've been good.

280
00:09:46,101 --> 00:09:46,761
I should have thought of them.

281
00:09:46,836 --> 00:09:48,021
Oh, oh, hang on.

282
00:09:48,021 --> 00:09:48,441
What's this?

283
00:09:48,441 --> 00:09:50,031
I've got written in my
notebook in fronted me.

284
00:09:50,811 --> 00:09:52,281
Yes, folks, it's quiz time, right?

285
00:09:52,341 --> 00:09:54,051
It's time for the Grand Defections quiz.

286
00:09:54,056 --> 00:09:55,311
Would you like to select your weapons?

287
00:09:55,341 --> 00:09:56,211
Yeah, absolutely.

288
00:09:56,211 --> 00:09:57,471
Um, do you want to, oh, I see.

289
00:09:57,476 --> 00:09:58,761
So would you like the bell?

290
00:09:58,776 --> 00:09:59,316
No, I

291
00:09:59,316 --> 00:10:01,566
Helen: think, no, I think
actually it, it was hard.

292
00:10:01,956 --> 00:10:02,406
Remember everyone

293
00:10:02,406 --> 00:10:03,486
Adam: wants the hooter, don't they?

294
00:10:03,491 --> 00:10:05,121
He remember was looking
enviously at the hooter,

295
00:10:05,401 --> 00:10:07,296
Helen: I remember from Christmas
that that actually requires

296
00:10:07,296 --> 00:10:08,826
quite a lot of grip strength.

297
00:10:08,826 --> 00:10:10,086
So well let, I'm gonna leave that to you.

298
00:10:10,091 --> 00:10:10,686
Let's see if

299
00:10:10,686 --> 00:10:11,161
Adam: I can, okay.

300
00:10:11,166 --> 00:10:11,976
Okay, we're back, back, back.

301
00:10:11,976 --> 00:10:14,826
So Helen goes and Andy goes,

302
00:10:15,996 --> 00:10:17,496
Helen: I think there's like
a second delay on that.

303
00:10:17,496 --> 00:10:18,606
I think you've taken a handicap on this.

304
00:10:18,606 --> 00:10:19,026
Yeah, you're

305
00:10:19,026 --> 00:10:19,386
Adam: right.

306
00:10:20,226 --> 00:10:20,406
Okay.

307
00:10:20,616 --> 00:10:26,446
Fingers on whatever things,  which
MP has changed parties twice in the

308
00:10:26,446 --> 00:10:29,116
past year with hardly anyone noticing.

309
00:10:31,411 --> 00:10:32,731
Helen: No, not the Anderson Bugger.

310
00:10:32,791 --> 00:10:34,081
Uh, George Galloway.

311
00:10:34,081 --> 00:10:35,041
No, not George Galloway.

312
00:10:35,041 --> 00:10:35,371
You can't just

313
00:10:35,371 --> 00:10:36,511
Adam: name all the MPs

314
00:10:36,511 --> 00:10:37,436
Helen: that come on.

315
00:10:37,746 --> 00:10:38,236
I'll go in there.

316
00:10:38,266 --> 00:10:38,701
Andy, do you wanna

317
00:10:38,701 --> 00:10:39,121
Adam: come in here?

318
00:10:39,811 --> 00:10:40,441
Do you want a clue?

319
00:10:40,531 --> 00:10:41,221
I'd need a clue.

320
00:10:41,251 --> 00:10:43,531
Pothead or Andrew Bridget.

321
00:10:43,621 --> 00:10:49,036
Andrew Bridget is the right answer to
get from that clue that potato pot takes.

322
00:10:49,836 --> 00:10:50,116
I know

323
00:10:50,161 --> 00:10:53,521
Andy: the way Adam thinks the problem, he
think he sees a potato, he thinks Andrew.

324
00:10:53,526 --> 00:10:54,481
Bridget does it do

325
00:10:54,481 --> 00:10:55,201
Adam: Very much.

326
00:10:55,206 --> 00:10:55,351
Yeah.

327
00:10:55,381 --> 00:10:57,631
It makes meal times extremely
difficult, but it's very good

328
00:10:57,661 --> 00:10:58,381
'cause I'm off the carbs.

329
00:10:58,971 --> 00:11:01,731
Andrew Bridget was kicked outta
the Tories in May, 2023 for

330
00:11:01,731 --> 00:11:04,341
saying that, uh, coMParing the
vaccine rollout to the Holocaust.

331
00:11:04,641 --> 00:11:08,151
Um, he, a little while after that,
joined Lawrence Fox's reclaim Party.

332
00:11:08,241 --> 00:11:12,831
Oh, so Reclaim, actually had an MP for a
little while, but not for all that long.

333
00:11:12,836 --> 00:11:15,111
It turns out because he left
again a few years later and is now

334
00:11:15,111 --> 00:11:18,681
running as the independent candidate
for his, um, seat of Northwest

335
00:11:18,711 --> 00:11:20,451
Lestershire in the general election.

336
00:11:20,481 --> 00:11:21,261
Although, weirdly.

337
00:11:21,631 --> 00:11:22,651
As the, I revealed in January.

338
00:11:22,651 --> 00:11:26,701
He's still being bankrolled by Jeremy
Hoskin, who, uh, is the Bankroller

339
00:11:26,701 --> 00:11:29,881
also for the reclaim party, but
just a bit too embarrassed to be

340
00:11:29,881 --> 00:11:31,231
associated with Lawrence Fox, I think.

341
00:11:31,696 --> 00:11:35,056
as you said, there were two defections
from the conservative party to

342
00:11:35,056 --> 00:11:37,216
Labour in the space of a fortnight.

343
00:11:37,396 --> 00:11:41,506
But who was the last person
to change parties directly?

344
00:11:41,716 --> 00:11:44,716
Not after being deprived of the whip and
kicked out and becoming an independent.

345
00:11:45,016 --> 00:11:47,836
The first person to crossed
the floor,  first MP to do that

346
00:11:47,836 --> 00:11:49,216
before Dan Putter in April.

347
00:11:50,746 --> 00:11:51,766
And that's Helen

348
00:11:51,766 --> 00:11:52,966
Helen: Christian Wakeford.

349
00:11:53,056 --> 00:11:54,226
Oh, very good.

350
00:11:55,111 --> 00:11:55,501
Adam: No.

351
00:11:55,621 --> 00:11:57,091
Helen: Oh, not very good.

352
00:11:57,151 --> 00:11:59,701
Adam: Oh, I've got a second chance,
but that was the name I would've said.

353
00:11:59,911 --> 00:12:00,421
Okay.

354
00:12:00,421 --> 00:12:01,711
Do you want to try, you wanna throw in?

355
00:12:02,101 --> 00:12:03,571
You were one in 650 chance?

356
00:12:04,801 --> 00:12:05,641
No, I've got no idea.

357
00:12:06,241 --> 00:12:07,471
Was Lisa Cameron?

358
00:12:08,039 --> 00:12:09,029
who's she you asking?

359
00:12:09,239 --> 00:12:10,499
S October, 2023.

360
00:12:10,499 --> 00:12:12,989
She left the SNP for the conservatives.

361
00:12:13,139 --> 00:12:14,834
Helen: Ooh, that's spicy and unusual.

362
00:12:14,854 --> 00:12:15,074
Uh,

363
00:12:15,074 --> 00:12:18,359
Adam: she's the MP for East Kil
Bride Strathaven and Les Macau.

364
00:12:19,079 --> 00:12:22,709
Um, and she said at the time that the,
uh, the s and p was a toxic environment,

365
00:12:22,709 --> 00:12:23,999
which was affecting her mental health.

366
00:12:24,029 --> 00:12:26,609
Well, that you think she's joined
the modern conservative party.

367
00:12:27,389 --> 00:12:29,729
She's a former clinical psychologist,
so she knows a thing or two about that.

368
00:12:29,729 --> 00:12:29,759
Okay.

369
00:12:29,789 --> 00:12:33,239
Um, and in order to disprove her
claims, the s and p President, Mike

370
00:12:33,239 --> 00:12:34,474
Russell said she was just having.

371
00:12:35,159 --> 00:12:38,099
A rather odd tantrum from somebody
who was going to lose their seat.

372
00:12:38,249 --> 00:12:39,479
So not toxic at all.

373
00:12:39,989 --> 00:12:43,289
As you can clearly see, he was
sort of ego driven politics

374
00:12:43,289 --> 00:12:45,029
that was deeply unattractive.

375
00:12:45,753 --> 00:12:49,953
when was the last person
to defect directly from the

376
00:12:49,953 --> 00:12:51,783
conservatives to the Labour Party?

377
00:12:53,973 --> 00:12:54,888
Go on Andy.

378
00:12:55,143 --> 00:12:57,363
Andy: Uh, I'll say 1996.

379
00:12:58,542 --> 00:12:59,892
Helen: 1979.

380
00:13:00,762 --> 00:13:01,932
Adam: No, go, go, go higher.

381
00:13:01,962 --> 00:13:02,112
Go.

382
00:13:02,112 --> 00:13:02,802
More recently,

383
00:13:03,403 --> 00:13:04,153
Helen: 2015.

384
00:13:04,396 --> 00:13:07,299
Adam: no, 2007 Quentin Davies.

385
00:13:07,719 --> 00:13:08,829
Any idea I had?

386
00:13:08,829 --> 00:13:09,579
Absolutely none.

387
00:13:09,729 --> 00:13:10,839
He was conservative.

388
00:13:10,839 --> 00:13:13,239
MP four Grantham and Stanford.

389
00:13:13,509 --> 00:13:17,709
Now, um, uh, Lord Stanford, 'cause funnily
enough ended up in the House of Lords, but

390
00:13:17,709 --> 00:13:21,699
he'd defected on the day that Gordon Brown
was elected as leader of the Labour Party.

391
00:13:22,359 --> 00:13:24,399
Saying that this was a
leader he had always admired.

392
00:13:24,399 --> 00:13:27,189
Unlike David Cameron, who has a
towering record and a clear vision

393
00:13:27,189 --> 00:13:28,659
for the future, which I fully share.

394
00:13:28,779 --> 00:13:31,509
And indeed, he fully share by
chair by having stepped down at the

395
00:13:31,514 --> 00:13:34,089
next election in 2010 when Gordon
Brown was swept out of office.

396
00:13:34,599 --> 00:13:36,069
Didn't go so well before that.

397
00:13:36,279 --> 00:13:37,119
Never heard of this one either.

398
00:13:37,119 --> 00:13:39,309
Robert Jackson, January, 2005.

399
00:13:39,339 --> 00:13:39,699
Oh yeah.

400
00:13:39,699 --> 00:13:40,269
Robert Jackson.

401
00:13:40,299 --> 00:13:40,569
Yeah.

402
00:13:40,574 --> 00:13:40,719
Yeah.

403
00:13:40,719 --> 00:13:43,719
You know the one, you know, the one saying
that the conservatives had dangerous

404
00:13:43,719 --> 00:13:45,339
views on Europe amongst other things.

405
00:13:45,819 --> 00:13:45,909
Helen: Okay.

406
00:13:45,909 --> 00:13:49,029
So quite a lot of these defectors have
been proved right by the tides of history.

407
00:13:49,299 --> 00:13:49,899
I will say

408
00:13:49,959 --> 00:13:53,499
Andy: yes, but it seems like such a,
a difficult and unpopular thing to do.

409
00:13:53,499 --> 00:13:57,339
I'm amazed that anyone, especially in
that chamber, you've got two sides.

410
00:13:57,344 --> 00:13:58,629
One of them is your side.

411
00:13:58,659 --> 00:13:58,749
Mm-Hmm.

412
00:13:58,989 --> 00:14:00,249
It must take real.

413
00:14:00,594 --> 00:14:03,984
GuMPtion or real confidence
to do it, to walk across.

414
00:14:04,404 --> 00:14:06,524
Helen: But that's a a really, that's
why I think the Starmer project

415
00:14:06,524 --> 00:14:07,854
is so interested in defectors.

416
00:14:07,854 --> 00:14:10,764
'cause most people will never, ever admit
that they were wrong about anything.

417
00:14:10,764 --> 00:14:10,884
Right?

418
00:14:10,884 --> 00:14:10,974
Mm-Hmm.

419
00:14:10,974 --> 00:14:12,834
They won't, they won't
say, I regret doing this.

420
00:14:12,839 --> 00:14:13,644
I regret voting this.

421
00:14:13,644 --> 00:14:17,454
I've spent my entire life, as it turns
out, coMPletely pointlessly on a lie.

422
00:14:17,734 --> 00:14:21,304
So you have to provide some plausible
psychological mechanism, which is why

423
00:14:21,304 --> 00:14:24,664
they are so intent on stressing in the
Labour Party that Labour has changed.

424
00:14:24,844 --> 00:14:26,844
As in, of course, you wouldn't have
voted for Jeremy Corbyn's Labour

425
00:14:26,859 --> 00:14:28,894
Party, but you're fine voting for ours.

426
00:14:28,894 --> 00:14:30,844
That's not, you know, you're not
saying that you were wrong to vote

427
00:14:30,844 --> 00:14:32,404
for the conservatives last time.

428
00:14:32,404 --> 00:14:34,324
You're just, you know, now we've
got, you've got a better choice.

429
00:14:34,384 --> 00:14:35,734
Andy: Sort of de tribalising things.

430
00:14:35,739 --> 00:14:35,779
Yeah.

431
00:14:35,809 --> 00:14:36,099
Yeah.

432
00:14:36,342 --> 00:14:41,802
Adam: which MP, who you definitely will
have heard of, changed parties four times.

433
00:14:43,452 --> 00:14:45,252
Andy: I've dropped, I've
dropped the horn in excitement.

434
00:14:45,257 --> 00:14:45,462
Which, and a

435
00:14:45,462 --> 00:14:48,852
Adam: drop go on Winston
Churchill, you are correct.

436
00:14:48,882 --> 00:14:49,602
Yes.

437
00:14:49,842 --> 00:14:50,622
For a bonus.

438
00:14:50,892 --> 00:14:52,002
Can you name the parties?

439
00:14:52,404 --> 00:14:53,064
conservative

440
00:14:53,124 --> 00:14:53,664
Helen: liberals.

441
00:14:54,664 --> 00:14:56,944
Adam: Two of them, 1904, switched for
the conservatives to the liberals.

442
00:14:56,974 --> 00:14:58,564
Helen: Did he have a
cheeky bang as a Labour MP?

443
00:14:58,564 --> 00:14:59,704
That seems unlikely, but

444
00:14:59,734 --> 00:15:00,154
Adam: no.

445
00:15:00,154 --> 00:15:01,204
That's one of the ones he doesn't do.

446
00:15:01,234 --> 00:15:01,294
How

447
00:15:01,294 --> 00:15:02,314
Helen: about a bit of time as a

448
00:15:02,314 --> 00:15:02,824
Adam: Whig

449
00:15:03,044 --> 00:15:04,389
I think the Whig were the
Liberals, weren't they?

450
00:15:04,569 --> 00:15:05,319
Oh, no.

451
00:15:05,319 --> 00:15:05,829
Pretty much.

452
00:15:05,859 --> 00:15:06,159
Okay.

453
00:15:06,309 --> 00:15:06,639
Yeah.

454
00:15:06,744 --> 00:15:09,624
1924 stood in a by-election
as an independent Mm-Hmm.

455
00:15:09,624 --> 00:15:11,304
A bit later on the same year
in the general election,

456
00:15:11,544 --> 00:15:13,584
stood as a Constitutionalist.

457
00:15:14,364 --> 00:15:15,714
Very nice, don't they?

458
00:15:15,714 --> 00:15:18,264
And swiftly ended up back in
the conservative government as

459
00:15:18,324 --> 00:15:19,804
Chancellor of the Exchequer.

460
00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:24,940
That's the end of the quiz and, uh, I'm
reliably informed that the winner this

461
00:15:24,940 --> 00:15:31,720
week it is, Andy, thank you that that
Winston Churchill, uh, biography I read

462
00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:32,830
really, really came through for me.

463
00:15:32,830 --> 00:15:35,230
In the end, what we've established
here is that the only politician

464
00:15:35,620 --> 00:15:39,040
that two private eye journalists can
name accurately is Winston Churchill.

465
00:15:39,610 --> 00:15:41,020
So we're doing really, really well.

466
00:15:41,650 --> 00:15:42,160
Andy: Oh, lord.

467
00:15:42,220 --> 00:15:43,780
Well that was a really
difficult quiz, Adam.

468
00:15:43,780 --> 00:15:44,290
Thank you.

469
00:15:44,588 --> 00:15:46,688
Helen: I knew that Emma
Nicholson was a Tory Pier, and

470
00:15:46,688 --> 00:15:47,588
I thought, well, that's funny.

471
00:15:47,588 --> 00:15:52,388
I, I didn't actually know that she was a
Tory Pier about Then you, you foxed me.

472
00:15:53,393 --> 00:15:54,353
Andy: Patrick trick question.

473
00:15:54,353 --> 00:15:55,613
You don't like losing quizzes, do you?

474
00:15:55,673 --> 00:15:56,333
I'm really upset.

475
00:16:01,355 --> 00:16:01,865
Right.

476
00:16:01,865 --> 00:16:05,015
Let's move on to, uh, story number
two of the week, and this is off

477
00:16:05,020 --> 00:16:06,755
the back of another bit of audio.

478
00:16:06,755 --> 00:16:08,975
This was something that, uh,
was on the Today Program.

479
00:16:09,005 --> 00:16:09,755
Uh, at the weekend.

480
00:16:09,785 --> 00:16:13,205
They've been running a series about
housing and especially the problems faced

481
00:16:13,265 --> 00:16:18,305
by tenants, and that's because there's
a new bit of law, um, slowly working

482
00:16:18,310 --> 00:16:21,605
its way through, which is called the
Renters Reform Bill and the Today Program.

483
00:16:21,605 --> 00:16:24,995
At the end of their week's programming on
the subject, they had Michael Goff, uh,

484
00:16:25,025 --> 00:16:26,675
who's the Secretary of State responsible.

485
00:16:27,035 --> 00:16:30,005
Uh, and he was on, and he
was interviewed about, uh.

486
00:16:30,395 --> 00:16:33,635
The housing situation about the progress
of this bill and obviously, 'cause

487
00:16:33,635 --> 00:16:36,425
that was the sort of culminating point,
there wasn't, there wasn't a follow

488
00:16:36,425 --> 00:16:39,785
up to that, so I thought it'd be fun
for us to provide that follow up.

489
00:16:39,845 --> 00:16:42,005
Helen: Can you, um, run me quickly
through the re reform bill?

490
00:16:42,005 --> 00:16:43,835
I'll tell you what my basic
level of knowledge is.

491
00:16:43,835 --> 00:16:43,925
Yes.

492
00:16:44,510 --> 00:16:47,360
It wants to get rid of no fault evictions.

493
00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:48,530
That's how it started off.

494
00:16:48,530 --> 00:16:48,531
Mm-Hmm.

495
00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:52,280
And change from having fixed
tendencies to kinda rolling tendencies

496
00:16:52,285 --> 00:16:54,050
where you have to come up with
some reason to kick people out.

497
00:16:54,170 --> 00:16:56,300
Trying to move us more towards
the European standard where

498
00:16:56,300 --> 00:16:59,600
people rent for a long time in
much more stable arrangements.

499
00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:04,100
But then my theory, my feeling was
then landlords got it watered down to

500
00:17:04,100 --> 00:17:08,000
the extent that the housing charities
withdrew their support for it and

501
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:09,530
said, this has been terribly muted.

502
00:17:10,415 --> 00:17:11,495
Can you give me more than that?

503
00:17:11,495 --> 00:17:12,755
Is that a reasonable pricey?

504
00:17:12,815 --> 00:17:14,345
Andy: You've said
everything I know about it.

505
00:17:14,555 --> 00:17:17,465
No, no, that's, that's exactly, that's
exactly what has happened, basically.

506
00:17:17,465 --> 00:17:21,425
So there were two really clear, uh,
pledges going into the, the last

507
00:17:21,425 --> 00:17:23,375
election by the conservatives in 2019.

508
00:17:23,795 --> 00:17:26,105
We're gonna build lots and lots and
lots and lots and lots of houses.

509
00:17:26,135 --> 00:17:29,015
300,000 a year, a million over the
course of the Parliament, which isn't

510
00:17:29,015 --> 00:17:32,255
the same number weirdly, um, 'cause they
will have built a million, but they.

511
00:17:32,365 --> 00:17:35,035
Fallen very far short of 300,000
a year, which was the target.

512
00:17:35,365 --> 00:17:38,785
And there was this renter's reform
bill to ban no fault evictions, where

513
00:17:38,785 --> 00:17:41,845
your landlord can basically say a
very short notice is you're out.

514
00:17:41,935 --> 00:17:48,385
Um, so just like someone frantically
doing their homework right at the, you

515
00:17:48,385 --> 00:17:51,565
know, right before the teacher comes in
and collects it all in the government,

516
00:17:51,565 --> 00:17:56,245
and now finally trying to get this
passed, um, there are thousands of

517
00:17:56,245 --> 00:17:58,975
these no fault evictions every year and.

518
00:17:59,690 --> 00:18:02,570
The rule at the moment has been
watered down as it's passed

519
00:18:02,570 --> 00:18:03,260
through the House of Commons.

520
00:18:03,260 --> 00:18:08,900
So, for example, um, the new rules will
allow landlords to evict tenants if

521
00:18:08,900 --> 00:18:12,140
they want to sell the property or if a
close family member wants to move in.

522
00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,170
Now, it's not crazy if you own
a home that you're renting out.

523
00:18:15,470 --> 00:18:16,790
To think, well, I want to sell it.

524
00:18:16,850 --> 00:18:20,030
You know, if I need to fund my old age,
whatever, like this was actually gonna

525
00:18:20,030 --> 00:18:21,710
be my really stupid person question, is

526
00:18:21,710 --> 00:18:22,820
Adam: that you're allowed
to sell your house.

527
00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:24,230
You're allowed to sell it.

528
00:18:24,230 --> 00:18:24,470
Yeah.

529
00:18:24,470 --> 00:18:24,650
Right.

530
00:18:24,710 --> 00:18:25,040
Okay.

531
00:18:25,100 --> 00:18:25,220
Yeah.

532
00:18:25,220 --> 00:18:25,880
And can I say

533
00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:28,520
Helen: that I read the exemptions and
my favorite one was that the house is

534
00:18:28,525 --> 00:18:30,170
required for a ministry of religion.

535
00:18:30,875 --> 00:18:31,355
Adam: Wow.

536
00:18:31,925 --> 00:18:33,245
Helen: You can say,
well, I'm really sorry.

537
00:18:33,245 --> 00:18:34,685
I've just got, I need to move a rabbi in.

538
00:18:34,685 --> 00:18:36,635
Actually, he really needs to be there.

539
00:18:36,635 --> 00:18:39,300
This Vick has just turned
out, oh, nothing I can do.

540
00:18:39,485 --> 00:18:41,375
Andy: Well, you're kind of getting to
the heart of the problem with this.

541
00:18:41,375 --> 00:18:44,345
So, so the, the other exemption
is if, if a close family member

542
00:18:44,345 --> 00:18:45,845
wants to move in right now.

543
00:18:46,295 --> 00:18:48,755
The rules have been changed
and they've been, they've been

544
00:18:48,755 --> 00:18:49,655
altered and altered and altered.

545
00:18:49,715 --> 00:18:52,685
So now there are plenty of extra
powers for landlords to kick people

546
00:18:52,685 --> 00:18:56,465
out, uh, under Section eight different
the law, uh, at two months notice.

547
00:18:56,495 --> 00:19:00,185
So it used to be just if they or their
spouse or civil partner wanted to move in.

548
00:19:00,305 --> 00:19:04,505
Now it's a whole load of family members,
all the children, all the grandchildren of

549
00:19:04,505 --> 00:19:06,155
any of this whole load of family members.

550
00:19:06,665 --> 00:19:10,725
The second problem with it,  is
that this is really hard to enforce,

551
00:19:10,965 --> 00:19:11,235
Helen: right?

552
00:19:11,235 --> 00:19:13,575
'cause the thing is, you could presume
you say, I'm very sorry, but my second

553
00:19:13,580 --> 00:19:15,195
cousin once removed needs this flat.

554
00:19:15,195 --> 00:19:16,005
I'm gonna kick you out.

555
00:19:16,245 --> 00:19:19,215
And what is the enforcement mechanism for
going back in six months time and checking

556
00:19:19,215 --> 00:19:20,565
that they really are then living there?

557
00:19:20,565 --> 00:19:21,075
Well, it's

558
00:19:21,075 --> 00:19:24,075
Andy: supposed to be local
authorities now, local authorities.

559
00:19:24,555 --> 00:19:27,075
As anyone will notice, are a
bit stretched at the moment.

560
00:19:27,255 --> 00:19:31,065
Uh, and also are tenants really likely
after they've been kicked out, they've

561
00:19:31,065 --> 00:19:34,065
noticed three months later actually
your granny didn't move in, in the end.

562
00:19:34,515 --> 00:19:38,895
So are they really likely to go through
all the hassle and the pain of a, a

563
00:19:38,925 --> 00:19:41,085
tribunal or whatever case it might be?

564
00:19:41,655 --> 00:19:41,865
Uh.

565
00:19:42,630 --> 00:19:46,230
Because it is just not likely
to achieve anything for them.

566
00:19:46,530 --> 00:19:49,320
And also, if the landlord does move
someone in, they're then not allowed to

567
00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:53,419
market the property to be let again a
whole three months after that's expired.

568
00:19:53,629 --> 00:19:54,589
That's not very long

569
00:19:55,039 --> 00:19:57,469
Helen: because the story that I kept
hearing was people, you know, say

570
00:19:57,469 --> 00:19:59,599
your rent was 1500 pounds a month.

571
00:19:59,604 --> 00:19:59,794
Mm-Hmm.

572
00:19:59,874 --> 00:20:03,139
Your landlord would kick you out and
then would put the flat back on the

573
00:20:03,139 --> 00:20:04,759
market for two and a half grand a month.

574
00:20:04,759 --> 00:20:04,909
Right?

575
00:20:04,909 --> 00:20:04,969
Yeah.

576
00:20:04,969 --> 00:20:05,749
That there were lots of.

577
00:20:06,319 --> 00:20:10,249
Because the housing market is so squeezed
because rents have gone up so much

578
00:20:10,549 --> 00:20:14,359
that there was kind of essentially, you
can't say it's, you know, it's, it's

579
00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,359
market adjustment, but somehow it looked
like very much like price gouging.

580
00:20:17,419 --> 00:20:17,569
Yeah.

581
00:20:17,659 --> 00:20:17,899
Mm-Hmm.

582
00:20:18,019 --> 00:20:20,779
Um, and I'm not sure, and I think that's
one of the things that this bill was

583
00:20:20,779 --> 00:20:24,349
designed to address, and I, I think it
was struggled to do that without very

584
00:20:24,349 --> 00:20:27,259
heavy handed regulation, which the
government doesn't seem to be up for

585
00:20:27,310 --> 00:20:29,710
Andy: is this a sign that the
government really can't pass anything?

586
00:20:29,830 --> 00:20:33,482
You know, because conservative back
benchers are the ones who manage to get

587
00:20:33,482 --> 00:20:35,582
the bill effectively neutered and about.

588
00:20:35,907 --> 00:20:39,297
A fifth, the last time I checked, I once
very Labouriously checked through the

589
00:20:39,297 --> 00:20:42,867
entire register of members' interest
to see how many MPs of which parties

590
00:20:42,867 --> 00:20:44,607
were landlords in their own right.

591
00:20:44,637 --> 00:20:47,367
And it was about a fifth of
conservative MPs were landlords,

592
00:20:47,397 --> 00:20:47,517
Helen: right?

593
00:20:47,517 --> 00:20:51,147
Whereas very, very few of them are
renters or maybe some of 'em are renters

594
00:20:51,147 --> 00:20:52,647
in their second home, but they're not.

595
00:20:53,127 --> 00:20:53,397
They're not.

596
00:20:53,517 --> 00:20:54,332
It would be a tiny,

597
00:20:54,507 --> 00:20:56,997
Adam: tiny proportion of
people who, who have, um.

598
00:20:57,342 --> 00:20:59,142
Members of Parliament who
do not own a property.

599
00:20:59,172 --> 00:21:00,582
It's a very tiny proportion.

600
00:21:00,582 --> 00:21:03,522
So the argument then is about,
you know, whether Parliament

601
00:21:03,522 --> 00:21:06,552
gives us a true representation of,
of, I mean, we, we, we made this

602
00:21:06,552 --> 00:21:07,542
argument, you made this argument.

603
00:21:07,542 --> 00:21:09,942
In fact, um, Helen on the podcast
not so long ago when you said about

604
00:21:09,942 --> 00:21:11,982
Charlotte Owen going into the House
of Lords, actually getting a few

605
00:21:11,987 --> 00:21:15,522
younger people who have different
life experiences into our legislator

606
00:21:15,552 --> 00:21:16,992
may not be a bad idea, might you?

607
00:21:17,197 --> 00:21:22,267
Helen: I'm afraid I have, I'm, I'm both a
YIMBY and very landlords skeptic because I

608
00:21:22,267 --> 00:21:25,957
just think that having housing as an asset
class has worked out quite poorly for

609
00:21:25,957 --> 00:21:28,237
basically everyone in Britain under 45.

610
00:21:28,477 --> 00:21:30,847
Andy: And this is one of the things
that go said in the interview, which

611
00:21:30,847 --> 00:21:34,207
I found so interesting, which I wanted
to kind of review his, you know,

612
00:21:34,297 --> 00:21:38,257
appearance because he, he pointed out
that housing has been, become seen

613
00:21:38,257 --> 00:21:39,667
increasingly as a good investment.

614
00:21:39,877 --> 00:21:40,027
Hmm.

615
00:21:40,027 --> 00:21:41,047
And well, okay.

616
00:21:41,047 --> 00:21:42,367
Who's been in charge
for the last 14 years.

617
00:21:42,517 --> 00:21:45,667
He also said that housing is a repository
for hot money, especially in London.

618
00:21:46,407 --> 00:21:51,417
Same question, also blame the crisis
in part, at least on, um, on the number

619
00:21:51,417 --> 00:21:54,297
of people coming to this country as
he, as he phrased it, quite delicately.

620
00:21:54,327 --> 00:21:55,377
Well, okay.

621
00:21:55,377 --> 00:21:56,697
Who's been in charge of those, you know.

622
00:21:57,852 --> 00:22:00,162
There's a certain point after which
you say, right, you have created

623
00:22:00,162 --> 00:22:01,602
this situation in large part.

624
00:22:01,662 --> 00:22:01,902
Helen: Right.

625
00:22:01,902 --> 00:22:04,332
But you know, I, I think it,
you are right about not being

626
00:22:04,332 --> 00:22:05,322
able to pass any legislation.

627
00:22:05,322 --> 00:22:07,722
If Michael Gove, who, whatever
else you might say about him.

628
00:22:08,052 --> 00:22:10,902
You know, my secret love of Michael
Gove, he's in a very effective minister.

629
00:22:10,902 --> 00:22:13,362
He is renowned as somebody who
absolutely understands his brief.

630
00:22:13,367 --> 00:22:14,082
He gets on top of it.

631
00:22:14,257 --> 00:22:17,107
He can push things
through, he can prioritize.

632
00:22:17,257 --> 00:22:20,767
And he's got, traditionally has
had a lot of buy-in, in the party

633
00:22:20,767 --> 00:22:24,157
and the ability to get things
done, but he cannot get this done.

634
00:22:24,217 --> 00:22:24,307
Yeah.

635
00:22:24,337 --> 00:22:26,407
Suggests to me that the to
party can't get it done.

636
00:22:26,407 --> 00:22:29,377
And I think part of that is the fact
that almost every local election

637
00:22:29,377 --> 00:22:31,357
caMPaign is run on, on NIMBY grounds.

638
00:22:31,837 --> 00:22:35,077
And you know, the, the liberal
Democrats are absolute fiends for it.

639
00:22:35,077 --> 00:22:38,077
They're brilliant at voting this
kind, but you actually get even.

640
00:22:38,497 --> 00:22:41,847
Labour MPs recently, John Ledge, um, who
swept me at New Statesman has been catalog

641
00:22:41,877 --> 00:22:46,347
clogging, like the Greens opposition
to, to housing is obviously incredibly

642
00:22:46,497 --> 00:22:49,527
high because if you are a none of the
above party running in a, in a local

643
00:22:49,527 --> 00:22:53,187
election, uh, or a by-election, then one
of the most popular things you can do

644
00:22:53,192 --> 00:22:54,777
is oppose any new housing developments.

645
00:22:54,777 --> 00:22:57,717
So we have all these incentives
just at the local level for people

646
00:22:57,867 --> 00:23:00,747
to, to block everything, everything
at all, even if it's like.

647
00:23:01,262 --> 00:23:04,172
Turning a derelict warehouse
on Brownfield's site into some,

648
00:23:04,172 --> 00:23:05,702
into a six story block of flats.

649
00:23:06,002 --> 00:23:08,432
People, some nonetheless come up
with some reason, whether it's

650
00:23:08,432 --> 00:23:11,342
like some boll weevil or something
that they can't, they can't do it.

651
00:23:11,402 --> 00:23:12,842
Andy: Those people are
the bananas, aren't they?

652
00:23:12,932 --> 00:23:16,112
There's the NIMBYs, there's the NIMBYs,
and then there's bananas who are

653
00:23:16,112 --> 00:23:21,297
built absolutely nothing anywhere near
anything, which is very, yeah, it's a lot.

654
00:23:21,297 --> 00:23:21,842
It's a great acronym.

655
00:23:21,902 --> 00:23:22,682
There's a lot of them.

656
00:23:22,697 --> 00:23:25,292
And the other problem with this,
the, with this bill, which is really

657
00:23:25,292 --> 00:23:29,072
interesting, it's a, it's a court thing
as well, and it's another reason why.

658
00:23:29,413 --> 00:23:31,903
Housing charities and various
organizations who are quite fond

659
00:23:31,903 --> 00:23:34,483
of the idea have slightly gone
soft and withdrawn their support.

660
00:23:34,513 --> 00:23:39,103
So lots of the backend es opposed to
the renters reform bill in its original

661
00:23:39,103 --> 00:23:43,453
state said, well, the courts are gonna
be overwhelmed with coMPlicated cases

662
00:23:43,453 --> 00:23:45,013
and tribunals and eviction cases.

663
00:23:45,463 --> 00:23:48,823
We have to delay this until the
courts have capacity to deal with

664
00:23:48,823 --> 00:23:50,173
the new cases that might arise.

665
00:23:50,533 --> 00:23:55,310
So The ban on section 20 ones will
not be enacted until a full probe

666
00:23:55,310 --> 00:23:56,930
into the courts has been held.

667
00:23:57,530 --> 00:24:00,320
Uh, and there's now gonna be
a full review of the courts.

668
00:24:00,350 --> 00:24:02,870
And you know, the government have
claimed that on top of that, they

669
00:24:02,875 --> 00:24:07,850
will give six months of notice before
ending section 21 for new tenancies.

670
00:24:08,030 --> 00:24:08,690
Nevermind.

671
00:24:09,275 --> 00:24:10,415
Existing tendencies.

672
00:24:10,415 --> 00:24:12,665
These are only, only the future ones.

673
00:24:12,665 --> 00:24:14,705
Adam: So this is not even kicking
it into the long grass, is it?

674
00:24:14,705 --> 00:24:17,615
This is boosting it sort of right
out, somewhere beyond the green belt.

675
00:24:18,215 --> 00:24:20,075
Helen: But I think Labour
have said that on day one they

676
00:24:20,075 --> 00:24:21,785
would ban no fault evictions.

677
00:24:21,815 --> 00:24:22,025
Right.

678
00:24:22,055 --> 00:24:24,395
So it may, it may be possibly,
I couldn't say I haven't

679
00:24:24,395 --> 00:24:25,505
seen the polls for some time.

680
00:24:25,775 --> 00:24:28,985
It may be that, that, that, you know,
it will require a change of government.

681
00:24:29,255 --> 00:24:29,315
Yeah.

682
00:24:29,315 --> 00:24:30,560
And this is the stealthy argument.

683
00:24:30,980 --> 00:24:34,220
If you are a ybi for a massive Labour
majority is that you need to be able

684
00:24:34,220 --> 00:24:37,580
to have a big enough majority for
the Labour party to afford to annoy

685
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,180
some constituency basis, you know,
to force through some house building.

686
00:24:41,660 --> 00:24:44,780
Um, and I think that unfortunately,
because realistically you wouldn't

687
00:24:44,785 --> 00:24:47,510
need all these huge gamuts of
legislation if the market worked better.

688
00:24:47,510 --> 00:24:50,630
If you as a renter could approach and
have a, like look at a decent number

689
00:24:50,630 --> 00:24:52,280
of properties at a decent level of.

690
00:24:52,310 --> 00:24:53,750
Pro prize where you want to live.

691
00:24:53,870 --> 00:24:53,960
Yeah.

692
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:55,340
It would de efficiently sort itself out.

693
00:24:55,340 --> 00:24:57,230
Bad landlords, people wouldn't
have to put up with them.

694
00:24:57,410 --> 00:25:00,020
The problem at the moment is
there are far too few properties.

695
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:00,260
Yeah.

696
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:01,520
And so it gets stuck.

697
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:03,530
You know, there's no, the market,
there's supposed to be a market

698
00:25:03,535 --> 00:25:04,850
and that market is not working.

699
00:25:05,300 --> 00:25:05,450
Andy: Hmm.

700
00:25:05,510 --> 00:25:09,290
And that's why all the solutions that
are been proposed that are basically

701
00:25:09,710 --> 00:25:13,850
altering the market a little bit like
a very, very, very long mortgage term.

702
00:25:13,850 --> 00:25:17,630
You know, 40 year mortgages or, or we'll,
we're going to do help to, we're gonna do

703
00:25:17,630 --> 00:25:21,650
share to rent, or help to rent, to share,
to buy, you know, all of these schemes.

704
00:25:22,260 --> 00:25:25,911
they're really coMPlicated, but they're
much easier in themselves than building

705
00:25:26,151 --> 00:25:30,776
another 3 million homes, which is actually
the, the only thing that would Mm-Hmm.

706
00:25:30,856 --> 00:25:32,856
Really in a long term,
concrete over Cambridgeshire

707
00:25:33,201 --> 00:25:34,191
Helen: built another reservoir.

708
00:25:34,281 --> 00:25:35,061
No, I didn't say that.

709
00:25:35,066 --> 00:25:36,831
Don't write, don't write into
me people from Cambridge.

710
00:25:37,161 --> 00:25:37,641
But you're right.

711
00:25:37,646 --> 00:25:38,601
Like we did at one point.

712
00:25:38,606 --> 00:25:41,421
Remember, in Bridge History, we
built entire new towns, garden

713
00:25:41,421 --> 00:25:41,961
Andy: cities.

714
00:25:41,961 --> 00:25:44,601
Helen: That was used to be a thing that
we thought was a reasonable thing to do.

715
00:25:44,661 --> 00:25:44,961
Andy: I know.

716
00:25:45,021 --> 00:25:47,031
Well there, and there are
lots of reasons why they, they

717
00:25:47,031 --> 00:25:48,141
are much harder to build now.

718
00:25:48,201 --> 00:25:48,621
Part of them.

719
00:25:48,671 --> 00:25:51,101
Part of it, a small part
of it is grid constraints.

720
00:25:51,101 --> 00:25:54,221
You know, you actually don't have
the electricity supplies to, to get

721
00:25:54,221 --> 00:25:55,571
these developments up and running.

722
00:25:55,631 --> 00:25:57,071
Adam: It's not just
electricity, it's water as well.

723
00:25:57,071 --> 00:25:59,471
I mean, we've, we've run stuff on
how many reservoirs have been built

724
00:25:59,471 --> 00:26:00,641
in Britain in the last 30 years?

725
00:26:00,671 --> 00:26:00,851
Yeah.

726
00:26:01,206 --> 00:26:02,706
It's a big fat zero.

727
00:26:02,706 --> 00:26:03,996
It's zero it very, very low.

728
00:26:04,386 --> 00:26:06,006
Uh, I mean my entire town down in St.

729
00:26:06,006 --> 00:26:08,406
Leonard on sea last weekend was
cut off for four days from water

730
00:26:08,406 --> 00:26:09,786
entirely 'cause one pipe burst.

731
00:26:09,936 --> 00:26:12,216
I mean, the infrastructure we
got in this country is in pretty

732
00:26:12,216 --> 00:26:13,476
much the same state as the road.

733
00:26:13,481 --> 00:26:14,976
So there's an awful lot
that has to go with it.

734
00:26:14,976 --> 00:26:16,956
There isn't just building houses, isn't

735
00:26:16,956 --> 00:26:17,076
Andy: it?

736
00:26:17,166 --> 00:26:17,556
Helen: Yeah.

737
00:26:17,676 --> 00:26:18,036
Andy: Yeah.

738
00:26:18,126 --> 00:26:22,086
And not to go too far on, you know,
this is not fully statistically backed,

739
00:26:22,086 --> 00:26:24,876
but it does make me wonder whether
that leads to more of an appetite for

740
00:26:24,876 --> 00:26:27,396
more radical change, you know, or.

741
00:26:27,996 --> 00:26:30,756
Saying we, we really actually need
to crack on and build entire new

742
00:26:30,756 --> 00:26:33,756
towns, which is I think one of the
planks of Labour policy on this.

743
00:26:34,776 --> 00:26:35,076
Helen: Yeah.

744
00:26:35,076 --> 00:26:37,656
And they, I mean there have been,
for example, Cambridge North has been

745
00:26:37,656 --> 00:26:39,546
quite, um, developed as far as I know.

746
00:26:39,546 --> 00:26:42,756
You know, there is, there are places
in Britain that you could build if

747
00:26:42,761 --> 00:26:44,316
you had sufficient political will.

748
00:26:44,556 --> 00:26:46,986
But I think if you look at HS two and
the fact they're gonna put half of

749
00:26:46,986 --> 00:26:50,436
that through tunnels at vast expense to
avoid spoiling people's views of fields.

750
00:26:50,556 --> 00:26:50,736
Yeah.

751
00:26:50,796 --> 00:26:54,486
This is not a country with a
ravenous appetite for, for building.

752
00:26:54,486 --> 00:26:54,996
Andy: Yeah.

753
00:26:55,326 --> 00:26:55,686
And it's.

754
00:26:56,796 --> 00:27:00,516
Because housing is such an intractable
problem, but we, we often forget the,

755
00:27:00,531 --> 00:27:03,456
the really, really sharp end of it,
which is the, I think it's a hundred

756
00:27:03,456 --> 00:27:08,376
thousand, um, families who are in
teMPorary accommodation, um, which is,

757
00:27:08,376 --> 00:27:10,626
is often extremely unfit to live in.

758
00:27:10,776 --> 00:27:11,226
Yes, I've been

759
00:27:11,226 --> 00:27:11,766
Helen: wondering about this.

760
00:27:11,771 --> 00:27:14,706
I live in Lewisham and there's um,
there's a premier in, and there's also a

761
00:27:14,736 --> 00:27:17,466
travel lodge, and it's almost iMPossible
to get rooms at the travel lodge.

762
00:27:17,526 --> 00:27:20,796
And I, my assuMPtion is that's because
Lucian Council is putting up families.

763
00:27:21,396 --> 00:27:25,091
And that's definitely been the case
in other, um, ho like relatively

764
00:27:25,091 --> 00:27:27,611
affordable hotel chains is that
you get, but you know, you get an

765
00:27:27,611 --> 00:27:30,551
entire family of four that is living
in a kind of premier in room Yeah.

766
00:27:30,551 --> 00:27:31,691
For months at a time.

767
00:27:31,691 --> 00:27:34,121
'cause they just, there just
physically isn't anywhere to put them.

768
00:27:34,421 --> 00:27:34,901
Andy: That's right.

769
00:27:34,901 --> 00:27:36,791
And that's sort of, that's
the current situation.

770
00:27:36,791 --> 00:27:40,241
Often you get social housing
tenants who are in work.

771
00:27:40,851 --> 00:27:44,811
Still qualify for, for housing allowance,
which then goes directly to the landlord

772
00:27:44,871 --> 00:27:48,891
of the property, which was a social house
until it was sold off under right to buy.

773
00:27:50,036 --> 00:27:52,881
And then the landlord, so the, the,
the con the money passes straight

774
00:27:52,881 --> 00:27:56,301
from the government via the social
housing tenant to the landlord.

775
00:27:56,331 --> 00:27:58,281
What in what was once a social house, so

776
00:27:58,551 --> 00:27:59,841
Adam: was pointed out to me by an MP.

777
00:27:59,841 --> 00:28:01,056
I was talking about
this a little while ago.

778
00:28:01,056 --> 00:28:01,336
Mm-hmm.

779
00:28:01,686 --> 00:28:03,816
That landlord doesn't even
necessarily live in the

780
00:28:03,816 --> 00:28:05,676
country, let alone in the area.

781
00:28:05,676 --> 00:28:07,866
You know, a lot of this money is
going straight out to coMPletely

782
00:28:07,866 --> 00:28:10,896
different places where people are, are
controlling large property empires from.

783
00:28:11,646 --> 00:28:13,446
Helen: That's the bit where
I think protectionism kind

784
00:28:13,446 --> 00:28:14,586
of is on the rise, I think.

785
00:28:15,096 --> 00:28:17,706
I think people are more open to
the idea that we shouldn't be, you

786
00:28:17,706 --> 00:28:19,956
know, in the same way we shouldn't
have a kind of huge outsourcing

787
00:28:19,956 --> 00:28:21,161
conglomerates being charged of things.

788
00:28:21,161 --> 00:28:23,616
Maybe we also shouldn't be
treating housing as a way of making

789
00:28:23,621 --> 00:28:25,056
people in other countries rich.

790
00:28:25,146 --> 00:28:25,446
Mm-Hmm.

791
00:28:25,626 --> 00:28:28,236
But you know that and which is
interesting 'cause that now I say

792
00:28:28,236 --> 00:28:29,706
unites the left and the right.

793
00:28:30,111 --> 00:28:33,441
And that kind of opposition to like
ultra free market neoliberalism

794
00:28:33,681 --> 00:28:36,831
is now quite popular amongst
sort of almost everybody really.

795
00:28:36,891 --> 00:28:37,641
Adam: Mm.

796
00:28:37,941 --> 00:28:42,081
But it also has become intractably
associated with, in, in the public

797
00:28:42,081 --> 00:28:44,901
mind, with the fact that you make
money on houses, you want houses.

798
00:28:44,901 --> 00:28:45,472
I mean, that's a.

799
00:28:45,806 --> 00:28:48,266
Your daily mail and daily express
headlines that we're always printing

800
00:28:48,266 --> 00:28:51,386
spoofs of, of, you know, nuclear
war could have effect on house

801
00:28:51,386 --> 00:28:52,436
prices and that sort of thing.

802
00:28:52,436 --> 00:28:56,516
But people are genuinely, I mean, people
over 45, as you mentioned, you do kind of

803
00:28:56,516 --> 00:28:59,426
have it there as your security and your
Nessun egg 'cause pensions aren't doing,

804
00:28:59,426 --> 00:29:02,576
doing so brilliantly and, but in a lot
of cases, that's the thing I, whether

805
00:29:02,576 --> 00:29:05,906
this is a generational thing because also
there's people over 45 have now got kids

806
00:29:06,206 --> 00:29:09,536
of 25 or 35 still living at home with them
because they can't afford to move out.

807
00:29:09,566 --> 00:29:13,226
So I think it gradually, it's not the sort
of straightforward oldies versus youth.

808
00:29:13,541 --> 00:29:14,831
Kind of, um, issue.

809
00:29:14,831 --> 00:29:16,631
It has been David

810
00:29:16,631 --> 00:29:17,921
Helen: Willetts who wrote
The Pinch, which is about

811
00:29:17,921 --> 00:29:20,261
generational, uh, intergenerational
unfairness said that to me.

812
00:29:20,261 --> 00:29:22,601
He said he thought the tipping point
would come when you had people who were

813
00:29:22,606 --> 00:29:27,161
very happy with the fact their house has
gone up by 400%, wondering why their kids

814
00:29:27,161 --> 00:29:30,341
are now having grandkids and they've got
the baby in like a bassinet in the, you

815
00:29:30,341 --> 00:29:31,421
know, in the, in the corner of their room.

816
00:29:31,421 --> 00:29:32,501
And they haven't managed to move out.

817
00:29:32,771 --> 00:29:33,941
But it really exacerbates.

818
00:29:34,721 --> 00:29:39,101
Social un it is a, it's a real, you
know, tion of social mobility, right?

819
00:29:39,101 --> 00:29:42,311
If the people who've already rich parents
who've got houses in the southeast

820
00:29:42,491 --> 00:29:46,451
can pass those on or pass on some of
the equity to allow their kids to buy

821
00:29:46,451 --> 00:29:50,351
houses, that is just rigging the system
against new entrant to an absurd degree.

822
00:29:50,351 --> 00:29:50,352
You're,

823
00:29:50,381 --> 00:29:53,831
Andy: you're getting into a fully
predetermined view of what your

824
00:29:53,831 --> 00:29:55,031
life outcomes are going to be.

825
00:29:55,031 --> 00:29:55,091
Yeah.

826
00:29:55,241 --> 00:29:58,241
Based entirely on, on whether
your parents happened to snap up

827
00:29:58,241 --> 00:29:59,351
a house in the eighties or not.

828
00:29:59,381 --> 00:29:59,711
Yeah.

829
00:29:59,831 --> 00:30:01,961
Um, someone should write a
really sort of funny gripping

830
00:30:01,961 --> 00:30:03,011
thriller about this kind of thing,

831
00:30:03,491 --> 00:30:04,061
Helen: but not you.

832
00:30:04,271 --> 00:30:05,411
Andy: No, no, no.

833
00:30:05,651 --> 00:30:08,681
Helen: When, uh, how is, uh, it's a
beginner's going to breaking and entering?

834
00:30:08,681 --> 00:30:09,341
I believe that's right.

835
00:30:10,996 --> 00:30:12,486
That is, tell me, me.

836
00:30:12,486 --> 00:30:14,171
Is that available in all good bookshops?

837
00:30:14,176 --> 00:30:14,471
Andy?

838
00:30:14,531 --> 00:30:14,711
It's

839
00:30:15,131 --> 00:30:18,641
Andy: tragically we only put it out into
bad book shops, which is my mistake.

840
00:30:18,701 --> 00:30:19,841
But, you know, go to your.

841
00:30:20,426 --> 00:30:20,936
No, nevermind.

842
00:30:20,936 --> 00:30:21,746
Look, anyway, let's press

843
00:30:21,896 --> 00:30:22,286
Helen: It's all right.

844
00:30:22,286 --> 00:30:25,166
Well, for in order like achieve
b BBC balance, I should say that

845
00:30:25,196 --> 00:30:27,566
uh, Adam's book of Ghost Stories
is coming out before, yeah,

846
00:30:27,566 --> 00:30:30,386
Adam: next October available for
pre-order from, uh, all bad book.

847
00:30:30,386 --> 00:30:30,686
It's got

848
00:30:30,686 --> 00:30:31,706
Helen: a lovely cover.

849
00:30:32,156 --> 00:30:34,466
Adam: Um, and I just, that's
the quote that's going on.

850
00:30:34,466 --> 00:30:38,666
The paperback, Helen Lewis goes
on lovely cover and I've just

851
00:30:38,671 --> 00:30:39,266
Helen: filed my book.

852
00:30:39,266 --> 00:30:40,706
So at some point that
should come out next year.

853
00:30:40,706 --> 00:30:42,476
So we'll basically, isn't that lovely?

854
00:30:42,476 --> 00:30:42,596
We've

855
00:30:42,596 --> 00:30:43,611
Andy: all got product to flog.

856
00:30:44,091 --> 00:30:44,491
Goodness me.

857
00:30:44,951 --> 00:30:47,621
Um, can I finish off, can I
finish off this bit with a quote

858
00:30:47,651 --> 00:30:48,761
that I think is quite revealing?

859
00:30:48,911 --> 00:30:49,481
Is it about your book?

860
00:30:49,966 --> 00:30:50,986
No, no, no, no, no.

861
00:30:51,941 --> 00:30:52,301
Okay.

862
00:30:52,331 --> 00:30:53,081
Just listen to this.

863
00:30:53,711 --> 00:30:57,311
Owners of property found it convenient to
close their eyes to all, but the handsome

864
00:30:57,311 --> 00:31:01,391
revenue they obtained from their unsavory
tenants and the municipal authorities were

865
00:31:01,396 --> 00:31:03,521
not apathetic, felt themselves helpless.

866
00:31:03,816 --> 00:31:05,646
That's from a book called The
Housing Problem in England

867
00:31:05,706 --> 00:31:07,596
that was published in 1907.

868
00:31:08,136 --> 00:31:08,286
Wow.

869
00:31:08,286 --> 00:31:12,066
And it was at a time where the
vast majority of people, I think it

870
00:31:12,066 --> 00:31:15,876
was 80% rented, right at the turn
of the 20th century, 80% rented.

871
00:31:16,206 --> 00:31:18,876
There was then an enormous amount
of house building, and by the

872
00:31:18,876 --> 00:31:22,266
turn of the 20th century, 70%
of people owned their own homes.

873
00:31:22,866 --> 00:31:25,116
The numbers have now started
trending downwards again.

874
00:31:25,416 --> 00:31:29,436
So I think that's a really telling
comment on where we've got to.

875
00:31:29,496 --> 00:31:31,956
Helen: Well, it is, um, the, the
first Alan Johnson memoir, which is

876
00:31:31,956 --> 00:31:34,806
very beautiful, is he talks about
growing up in a sort of slum with

877
00:31:34,806 --> 00:31:38,016
ice on the windows, and then they all
get kind of, that all gets cleared

878
00:31:38,021 --> 00:31:39,456
and they all get moved out to these.

879
00:31:39,841 --> 00:31:42,301
New housing estates that are built
and for the first time people have

880
00:31:42,301 --> 00:31:44,701
got their own bit of front goad
and they've got somewhere, you

881
00:31:44,701 --> 00:31:46,098
know, to kind of call their own.

882
00:31:46,098 --> 00:31:48,108
They're not jammed into
these unsanitary conditions.

883
00:31:48,378 --> 00:31:51,978
And I think the way that he writes about
that is quite moving about what it meant

884
00:31:51,978 --> 00:31:55,518
to people to have a kind of space of their
own somewhere that they felt secure in.

885
00:31:55,878 --> 00:31:58,338
And that's when you read so many
of the stories about the private

886
00:31:58,368 --> 00:32:01,998
rental sector now is the, what
comes across as insecurity anyway.

887
00:32:01,998 --> 00:32:05,328
You are living on prog probation
and could be kicked out at any time.

888
00:32:05,628 --> 00:32:06,228
It's Victorian.

889
00:32:06,228 --> 00:32:07,788
It's Ed Edwardian, technically.

890
00:32:07,938 --> 00:32:08,838
Very nice.

891
00:32:08,843 --> 00:32:09,043
Thank you.

892
00:32:10,909 --> 00:32:11,195
Andy: right.

893
00:32:11,195 --> 00:32:12,125
Well that's quite enough.

894
00:32:12,185 --> 00:32:14,405
Uh, incredible gloo about
the housing situation.

895
00:32:14,405 --> 00:32:15,905
Let's, let's have
something cheerful instead.

896
00:32:15,910 --> 00:32:17,435
What's been on telly lately?

897
00:32:17,975 --> 00:32:21,005
Helen: I've been watching a lot of telly
because I haven't been able to go out,

898
00:32:21,035 --> 00:32:24,425
'cause I've been, um, writing stuff
and I, I sent to you and I gonna have

899
00:32:24,430 --> 00:32:28,205
a fight about this, but I would like to
nominate as an incredibly good TV program.

900
00:32:28,205 --> 00:32:29,855
Clarkson's Farm on Amazon.

901
00:32:29,915 --> 00:32:30,605
Andy: Okay.

902
00:32:30,905 --> 00:32:33,785
Helen: I think it's the
greenest program on television.

903
00:32:34,340 --> 00:32:34,540
Wow.

904
00:32:34,545 --> 00:32:39,320
And you know, all you woke
bicycle munching, lettuce riding.

905
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:39,380
Yeah.

906
00:32:40,010 --> 00:32:41,210
Woke mind virus people.

907
00:32:41,210 --> 00:32:41,780
Won't I get this?

908
00:32:41,780 --> 00:32:45,410
But the thing he's done in this series is
divide it up between Caleb, the assistant

909
00:32:45,410 --> 00:32:48,890
and him, and say, you know, Caleb is gonna
manage the bits of the farm that have got

910
00:32:48,895 --> 00:32:52,250
traditional arable crops on and he's gonna
try and make money outta the other bits.

911
00:32:52,250 --> 00:32:56,030
So he tries and, um, yeah, like
pigs, he tries to have honey.

912
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:57,890
He tries to harvest his hedgerows.

913
00:32:58,655 --> 00:32:59,375
All that kind of stuff.

914
00:32:59,465 --> 00:33:03,095
He has a bloke from Groove turn up to tell
him about the fact that we're taking all

915
00:33:03,095 --> 00:33:06,125
the nutrients out the soil and actually
should try and grow beans and stuff like

916
00:33:06,125 --> 00:33:07,895
that across as well as conventional crops

917
00:33:07,955 --> 00:33:08,435
Adam: from Groove.

918
00:33:09,035 --> 00:33:09,455
Yeah.

919
00:33:09,605 --> 00:33:09,815
Helen: Yeah.

920
00:33:09,815 --> 00:33:09,995
What

921
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,875
Adam: has happened with this
music to Environmental caMPaign?

922
00:33:12,875 --> 00:33:13,235
I think.

923
00:33:13,425 --> 00:33:15,885
They all made Mele
Sharky started this Yeah.

924
00:33:15,885 --> 00:33:15,945
A

925
00:33:15,945 --> 00:33:17,595
Helen: load of money in
the 1990s, didn't they?

926
00:33:17,595 --> 00:33:20,265
Like, well, Alex James from
Blair and his cheeses, it's a

927
00:33:20,265 --> 00:33:22,665
Andy: very long established thing
that, I mean, Ian Anderson of Jethro

928
00:33:22,665 --> 00:33:24,315
Toll as a salmon farmer these days.

929
00:33:24,315 --> 00:33:24,555
Yes, indeed.

930
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,195
Didn't know that's, um, it's a bit less
environmental actually, given what,

931
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,945
quite considerably less environmental,
what privat has written about salmon

932
00:33:30,950 --> 00:33:32,025
and its horrors over the years.

933
00:33:32,265 --> 00:33:33,855
Um, but yes, so, okay.

934
00:33:33,855 --> 00:33:34,185
But the thing,

935
00:33:34,185 --> 00:33:35,355
Helen: I think it does a couple of things.

936
00:33:35,355 --> 00:33:37,965
First of all, it is a very soft
way of talking about climate change

937
00:33:37,965 --> 00:33:39,135
because they talk about the fact that.

938
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,890
For example, the last year they were
doing it, it, the spring was so rainy,

939
00:33:42,890 --> 00:33:45,890
they had to plant a lot of, I think,
their barley and stuff later than usual.

940
00:33:46,370 --> 00:33:49,130
And he talks about the fact that the
costs, the spiking of costs, you know, the

941
00:33:49,130 --> 00:33:52,730
fuel costs, the Labour costs, everything
that's gone up, that's contributed

942
00:33:52,730 --> 00:33:54,170
to your food being more expensive.

943
00:33:54,170 --> 00:33:57,770
And explaining that supply chain process
and the fact that working for the

944
00:33:57,770 --> 00:34:00,320
supermarkets, you know, something that
private eye has covered a lot over the

945
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:04,250
years is on those wafer thin profit
margins that, uh, that farmers are

946
00:34:04,250 --> 00:34:05,960
being expected to kind of live with.

947
00:34:06,260 --> 00:34:06,380
Yeah.

948
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,630
All of that stuff is covered while also.

949
00:34:09,380 --> 00:34:11,300
He cried over some little
baby piglets that died.

950
00:34:11,330 --> 00:34:12,200
Oh, that's what's

951
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:12,740
Andy: got you.

952
00:34:12,740 --> 00:34:14,960
You've gone for the
story about the piglets.

953
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:15,710
Adam: It's sad little piglets.

954
00:34:15,710 --> 00:34:18,320
The, that would've been, so are we
essentially, are we essentially saying

955
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,000
this is Clarkson is the new arches?

956
00:34:20,030 --> 00:34:23,060
'cause the arches famously were
sent up in 1951 to educate, um.

957
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,850
Uh, British radio listeners
about, about the countryside.

958
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:29,480
Um, and it used to be long, long sections
of Doris and Dan Archer reading out

959
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:31,160
sort of milky old quotas to each other.

960
00:34:31,165 --> 00:34:33,140
They're slightly more integrated
into the storyline now.

961
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:34,190
Helen: No, but there is a lot of that.

962
00:34:34,190 --> 00:34:36,740
And to go back to our last segment,
there's a lot about his running

963
00:34:36,740 --> 00:34:39,770
battle with West Oxford Paris Council
that seems to want to keep the Cowa

964
00:34:39,775 --> 00:34:41,120
as essentially a kind of museum.

965
00:34:41,300 --> 00:34:41,570
All: Mm-Hmm.

966
00:34:41,690 --> 00:34:44,480
Helen: Rather than like the, the letting
him run the farm shop, for example.

967
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,140
They're just sort of, they are, they
are bananas I think in many ways.

968
00:34:48,485 --> 00:34:51,965
And so watching him, Emmanuel have a
sort of pick a fight with a wall hanging,

969
00:34:52,295 --> 00:34:54,335
have argue with them is quite enjoyable.

970
00:34:54,335 --> 00:34:57,575
But yeah, it ha I feel it has
genuinely educated me about how the

971
00:34:57,575 --> 00:35:01,115
challenges of being a, a farmer today,
well, frankly, people like you would

972
00:35:01,115 --> 00:35:02,135
do well to remember that, Angie.

973
00:35:02,375 --> 00:35:02,945
Andy: Oh, get away.

974
00:35:02,945 --> 00:35:03,335
Okay.

975
00:35:03,335 --> 00:35:04,025
I just, I'm gonna.

976
00:35:04,370 --> 00:35:07,610
Push back a little bit about this 'cause
I haven't seen all of Clarkson's farm,

977
00:35:07,610 --> 00:35:09,950
so you're better informed about what
happened to the poor baby piglets.

978
00:35:10,190 --> 00:35:12,050
No, before they would've
been turned into sausages.

979
00:35:12,110 --> 00:35:12,975
Um, but yeah,

980
00:35:12,980 --> 00:35:15,230
Helen: but that's what the guy, the
butcher comes on and says that this

981
00:35:15,230 --> 00:35:17,510
is the thing about farmers love
their animals and then he hands him

982
00:35:17,515 --> 00:35:18,650
some sausages and goes this way.

983
00:35:18,650 --> 00:35:19,730
You can love them twice.

984
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:20,900
Adam: Crumbs.

985
00:35:20,930 --> 00:35:21,380
Okay.

986
00:35:21,590 --> 00:35:24,530
Speaking of someone who used to
eat his own goats, can I just

987
00:35:24,530 --> 00:35:27,860
say it is possible to love your
animals and also love them twice?

988
00:35:27,860 --> 00:35:30,710
Ensure that they have a
very, very good life before.

989
00:35:31,295 --> 00:35:32,586
Not having to be cart
off the slaughterhouse.

990
00:35:32,765 --> 00:35:33,515
Andy: Well that alright.

991
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:34,205
That's fair enough.

992
00:35:34,205 --> 00:35:36,785
But I think, I think that, well
the thing that a lot of people,

993
00:35:37,595 --> 00:35:39,545
Helen: sorry, like me, the fact,
speaking of someone who had to

994
00:35:39,545 --> 00:35:40,925
eat his own goats, it's just,

995
00:35:41,045 --> 00:35:42,215
Adam: oh, it was so exciting.

996
00:35:42,215 --> 00:35:42,605
No, no.

997
00:35:42,605 --> 00:35:45,785
The, the so glossed over that a bit,
and this is a big change in farming, is

998
00:35:45,785 --> 00:35:47,945
these days everything has to go through
the slaughterhouse in those days.

999
00:35:47,945 --> 00:35:51,665
So you, you get animals being,
and this is true deer as well,

1000
00:35:51,665 --> 00:35:52,540
which is most extraordinary.

1001
00:35:52,540 --> 00:35:53,060
You killed, you killed goat.

1002
00:35:53,100 --> 00:35:54,785
I did not personally
kill, I'm nine years old.

1003
00:35:54,935 --> 00:35:55,835
You used to, but used to see signs.

1004
00:35:55,835 --> 00:35:57,125
You used to see signs
at the side of the road.

1005
00:35:57,125 --> 00:35:58,355
Didn't you kill your own goats?

1006
00:35:58,385 --> 00:35:59,195
You come in and, yeah.

1007
00:35:59,195 --> 00:35:59,615
Yeah.

1008
00:36:00,545 --> 00:36:02,495
I'm not, I'm not running
for vice president.

1009
00:36:02,555 --> 00:36:04,625
I'm not in the habit of
going out and shooting goats.

1010
00:36:04,805 --> 00:36:06,245
No, we have slaughterman
used to come around.

1011
00:36:06,275 --> 00:36:08,765
'cause in those days you didn't, you
know, you didn't have to pack animals

1012
00:36:08,765 --> 00:36:11,828
into the back of a lorry and take 'em
off all terrified and, and, and, and,

1013
00:36:11,833 --> 00:36:13,145
and into a horrendous environment.

1014
00:36:13,150 --> 00:36:15,665
It could just quietly be
done in their own goat shed.

1015
00:36:15,965 --> 00:36:18,635
Uh, and mom and I, mom and I would take
the dogs for a very, very long walk, and

1016
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:19,835
my dad would deal with the slaughterman.

1017
00:36:19,835 --> 00:36:22,265
But there was the, the thrill of being
able to go and look through the crack

1018
00:36:22,265 --> 00:36:25,145
in the garage door and see the, uh,
body hanging up, bleeding into a bucket.

1019
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:29,350
Going, oh, that's, I think we've
gone quite far into, we've gone

1020
00:36:29,350 --> 00:36:30,580
deep into my childhood now.

1021
00:36:31,199 --> 00:36:34,289
Andy: it's really iMPortant, you know,
seeing how your food arrives is something

1022
00:36:34,294 --> 00:36:35,609
that almost nobody thinks about.

1023
00:36:35,639 --> 00:36:37,709
'cause the number of people
working in agriculture has declined

1024
00:36:37,709 --> 00:36:39,149
so much over the last century.

1025
00:36:39,149 --> 00:36:40,919
So now we're very, very
disconnected from it.

1026
00:36:40,919 --> 00:36:41,369
So it's great.

1027
00:36:41,399 --> 00:36:42,539
It's, it is great to see that.

1028
00:36:42,929 --> 00:36:45,389
I, I think one thing that
Clarkson has got wrong.

1029
00:36:45,759 --> 00:36:49,719
On plenty of occasions is he's
been a consistent denier of climate

1030
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,059
change or that there's, there's
any need to change our activities.

1031
00:36:52,059 --> 00:36:54,429
And now he's moved on slightly
from that 'cause he is literally

1032
00:36:54,429 --> 00:36:57,429
farming his land and he can see
that half of it's underwater.

1033
00:36:57,789 --> 00:37:01,389
But he's moved on to the next stage
towards actually realizing things

1034
00:37:01,389 --> 00:37:02,649
can be done and should be done.

1035
00:37:02,889 --> 00:37:05,199
So he was interviewed by the,
I think the observer just as

1036
00:37:05,289 --> 00:37:06,729
to plug this series basically.

1037
00:37:07,179 --> 00:37:10,329
And one of the things he said
to them was, well, you know.

1038
00:37:10,464 --> 00:37:13,914
Look, the fact is politics isn't
gonna change any climate stuff.

1039
00:37:14,004 --> 00:37:18,204
It's all gonna be solved by the science,
which is a, I'm afraid, a really classic.

1040
00:37:18,384 --> 00:37:20,034
You are just past the denial phase.

1041
00:37:20,034 --> 00:37:23,394
It's just, well, it'll be sorted by
science and it's not gonna be politics.

1042
00:37:24,084 --> 00:37:27,122
And then with the very next breath,
he said, I would never  drive a Tesla.

1043
00:37:27,122 --> 00:37:29,192
I've got eight cars or with
V eight entrance, whatever.

1044
00:37:29,582 --> 00:37:31,862
And I think the thing that
he's not putting together

1045
00:37:31,862 --> 00:37:32,912
there, he's so close to it.

1046
00:37:32,917 --> 00:37:35,552
That's the thing about
Clarkson, um, is that.

1047
00:37:36,062 --> 00:37:37,682
Science does not exist in a vacuum.

1048
00:37:37,982 --> 00:37:39,812
You might be able to invent the
electric car, which means you

1049
00:37:39,812 --> 00:37:41,282
never have to burn petrol again.

1050
00:37:41,462 --> 00:37:43,232
You know, you don't have to
transport it across the world.

1051
00:37:43,232 --> 00:37:46,292
You have to get it outta the ground,
refine it, transport it, put it

1052
00:37:46,292 --> 00:37:48,662
in the petrol station, put it in
your car, and then burn it once.

1053
00:37:49,277 --> 00:37:52,127
You can run it off renewables, you
can effectively run it off sunlight.

1054
00:37:52,727 --> 00:37:55,037
But you need politics to roll that out.

1055
00:37:55,037 --> 00:37:57,497
You need politics to change
the status quo, to bring people

1056
00:37:57,497 --> 00:38:01,247
with you to make sure it's not
prohibitive, prohibitively expensive.

1057
00:38:01,427 --> 00:38:03,527
That's the politics and that's
where they dovetail together.

1058
00:38:03,527 --> 00:38:07,787
And I think Clarkson has, has
frequently siMPlified things, partly

1059
00:38:07,787 --> 00:38:10,757
for comedy and partly for, you know,
popular effect, but also sometimes.

1060
00:38:11,532 --> 00:38:12,882
Quite far, quite popular on that.

1061
00:38:12,882 --> 00:38:13,157
Yeah, he's super

1062
00:38:13,157 --> 00:38:15,737
Helen: attached to the idea of
himself as a kind of beer everyman.

1063
00:38:15,737 --> 00:38:17,687
I think that that, that stops him.

1064
00:38:17,687 --> 00:38:18,197
But you're right.

1065
00:38:18,227 --> 00:38:20,327
One of the interesting things that's
happening in the US for example, that

1066
00:38:20,327 --> 00:38:22,667
Tesla is having a lot of problems,
but one thing that does seem to

1067
00:38:22,667 --> 00:38:24,977
be going well in their business
is rolling out the superchargers.

1068
00:38:25,457 --> 00:38:27,797
Because one of the things you need to do
if you want to make electric cars work is

1069
00:38:27,797 --> 00:38:30,557
obviously you need to be able to charge
them and be able to find those charging

1070
00:38:30,557 --> 00:38:32,507
points relatively easy and conveniently.

1071
00:38:32,537 --> 00:38:32,717
Yeah.

1072
00:38:32,897 --> 00:38:33,827
And that kind of stuff.

1073
00:38:33,827 --> 00:38:37,127
You do just need, you know, I think
we've benefited enormously from

1074
00:38:37,127 --> 00:38:40,067
subsidies and encouragement and
support from the government by kind

1075
00:38:40,072 --> 00:38:43,037
of long term plans about this will be
worth your while investing in this.

1076
00:38:43,237 --> 00:38:43,957
A private coMPany.

1077
00:38:43,962 --> 00:38:44,082
Yeah.

1078
00:38:44,302 --> 00:38:45,127
But yeah, so, okay.

1079
00:38:45,127 --> 00:38:47,497
He can, he can't stop his
essential Clark's ity.

1080
00:38:48,007 --> 00:38:48,242
You can't expect that.

1081
00:38:48,242 --> 00:38:49,027
Do you don not think he'll get there

1082
00:38:49,027 --> 00:38:49,177
Adam: though?

1083
00:38:49,182 --> 00:38:51,637
Do you not think it's one more
outrageous column for the sun and then

1084
00:38:51,637 --> 00:38:54,427
him having to do a kind of sackcloth
and ashes contrition thing and then

1085
00:38:54,432 --> 00:38:56,077
he'll go, he'll go fully Greta?

1086
00:38:56,137 --> 00:38:56,677
Andy: I don't know.

1087
00:38:56,767 --> 00:38:57,247
Adam: I don't know.

1088
00:38:57,247 --> 00:38:58,417
I don't, I don't, I, I'm

1089
00:38:58,417 --> 00:38:59,377
Andy: not really worried about.

1090
00:39:00,062 --> 00:39:02,012
Especially, I also think

1091
00:39:02,402 --> 00:39:05,222
Helen: I, you know, my analysis, the green
movement, I think it's a really big shame

1092
00:39:05,222 --> 00:39:08,972
that the Green Party has become, now,
particularly, it's now become a recipient

1093
00:39:08,977 --> 00:39:11,342
for all the people who've left lay because
it's not left wing enough for them.

1094
00:39:11,672 --> 00:39:14,252
And I think the problem with that
is, in a way I want to, I, I'm

1095
00:39:14,252 --> 00:39:15,422
fine for that green party to exist.

1096
00:39:15,427 --> 00:39:17,522
I would also like a right
wing green party to exist.

1097
00:39:17,732 --> 00:39:18,752
You know, the way that, um.

1098
00:39:19,002 --> 00:39:20,862
The king talks about conservation, right?

1099
00:39:20,862 --> 00:39:24,072
As sort of lovely woodlands and England
and nostalgia and sustainability

1100
00:39:24,072 --> 00:39:24,672
and all that kind of stuff.

1101
00:39:24,942 --> 00:39:29,292
There is a very conservative, traditional
form of environmental politics that

1102
00:39:29,292 --> 00:39:30,972
I wish we heard a bit more, right?

1103
00:39:31,002 --> 00:39:33,222
'cause it would reach a
whole constituents of people.

1104
00:39:33,662 --> 00:39:35,882
Who don't get reached by
the current Green Party?

1105
00:39:35,912 --> 00:39:39,272
Andy: Well, I think, I think
that's why, um, Labour have been so

1106
00:39:39,302 --> 00:39:42,302
clear on the eMPhasis of renewable
energy means energy security.

1107
00:39:42,307 --> 00:39:44,372
It means not having to iMPort oil and gas.

1108
00:39:44,402 --> 00:39:45,962
You, you can very much lead on it.

1109
00:39:45,962 --> 00:39:48,812
This is good British sunshine
hitting British land.

1110
00:39:48,842 --> 00:39:50,702
Let us use it to Power Britain.

1111
00:39:50,882 --> 00:39:52,742
You know, that's Soler
nationalism and it's,

1112
00:39:54,917 --> 00:39:55,772
it's like, I love it.

1113
00:39:55,772 --> 00:39:56,672
I'm a solo nationalist.

1114
00:39:56,672 --> 00:39:57,332
100%.

1115
00:39:57,657 --> 00:39:58,677
Why wouldn't we do that?

1116
00:39:58,814 --> 00:40:01,844
if you iMPort oil or gas from
Russia, they can turn off the taps.

1117
00:40:01,874 --> 00:40:04,664
If you iMPort a Soler panel from
China, it cannot be deactivated.

1118
00:40:04,814 --> 00:40:06,674
That panel will work for 15, 20 years.

1119
00:40:06,674 --> 00:40:09,374
You give you all the power you need
and then you can recycle the, the,

1120
00:40:09,404 --> 00:40:12,584
uh, ingredients in it, you know,
that is Soler nationalism baby.

1121
00:40:12,584 --> 00:40:14,084
And my new party will be launching.

1122
00:40:14,324 --> 00:40:15,104
Next week

1123
00:40:15,284 --> 00:40:17,144
Helen: solo will be a great
name for political party.

1124
00:40:17,144 --> 00:40:17,204
Yeah.

1125
00:40:17,204 --> 00:40:20,354
It's got that sort vibe, like it
sounds like an an apprentice team.

1126
00:40:20,359 --> 00:40:20,609
Andy: Yeah.

1127
00:40:20,609 --> 00:40:20,889
Yeah, yeah.

1128
00:40:21,074 --> 00:40:21,344
Yeah.

1129
00:40:21,700 --> 00:40:25,310
It does feel the farming thing
quite public servicey, you know,

1130
00:40:25,310 --> 00:40:26,390
it feels like a sort of show.

1131
00:40:26,420 --> 00:40:28,940
It's, I mean it's, it is very
much top gear, crop gear.

1132
00:40:28,970 --> 00:40:29,930
That's what he should have called it.

1133
00:40:31,130 --> 00:40:33,920
But I presume EMM were offering more
money than the B bbc, so Fair enough.

1134
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:37,070
But I would also, he got fired
from the  BBC after, uh, the

1135
00:40:37,070 --> 00:40:38,390
unpleasantness with that producer.

1136
00:40:38,395 --> 00:40:38,480
Yes.

1137
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:39,110
It would have to be called

1138
00:40:39,110 --> 00:40:41,750
Helen: Land Tour, like Grand Tour
if he was gonna do a spinoff.

1139
00:40:42,060 --> 00:40:44,160
Andy: We've come up with
two better names already

1140
00:40:44,190 --> 00:40:47,670
Adam: than Clarkson's Farm, which is I
think your SEO specialist would probably

1141
00:40:47,670 --> 00:40:49,170
say they want the name Clarkson in there.

1142
00:40:49,350 --> 00:40:49,770
And sure

1143
00:40:49,775 --> 00:40:52,260
Helen: enough that POM has done
incredibly well and they are, I think,

1144
00:40:52,260 --> 00:40:54,840
currently filming the fourth series
after they're kind of like, oh, maybe

1145
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:56,460
we'll sack him over being mean to Meghan.

1146
00:40:57,540 --> 00:40:59,460
Maybe what we'll do is
we'll be quiet for a year.

1147
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:01,410
And hope that everyone has forgotten.

1148
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:02,490
Adam: Right, right, right, right.

1149
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:04,290
It's luckily they have, 'cause
we haven't brought it up at all.

1150
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:08,370
Helen: Well, also I haven't watched
yet, episode six, but I saw the

1151
00:41:08,375 --> 00:41:10,860
preview of it and it was Caleb and
Charlie, the farm manager, going

1152
00:41:10,860 --> 00:41:14,640
to meet Rishi Sinek and I was just
going, no, don't make me hate Caleb.

1153
00:41:15,475 --> 00:41:16,125
Come on Caleb.

1154
00:41:17,435 --> 00:41:20,015
I've never seen two people who look
like they would've less in common

1155
00:41:20,015 --> 00:41:22,985
than Caleb who until I think, filming
the series hadn't been more than

1156
00:41:22,985 --> 00:41:24,755
like 25 miles away from his home.

1157
00:41:24,935 --> 00:41:27,695
And she just, I see.

1158
00:41:27,695 --> 00:41:29,405
And what's a sheep, I think

1159
00:41:29,465 --> 00:41:30,245
Andy: Caleb said, didn't he?

1160
00:41:30,245 --> 00:41:31,985
He'd been to London once,
but he hadn't liked it.

1161
00:41:31,985 --> 00:41:33,035
He hadn't got off the couch.

1162
00:41:33,155 --> 00:41:33,875
Helen: Yeah, he didn't like it.

1163
00:41:34,265 --> 00:41:34,895
Didn't like it at all.

1164
00:41:34,895 --> 00:41:34,955
It

1165
00:41:35,045 --> 00:41:35,675
Andy: seems fair.

1166
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:35,880
Yeah.

1167
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:36,120
Yeah.

1168
00:41:36,365 --> 00:41:38,465
I have to come to London every week
to do this and I don't like it.

1169
00:41:39,439 --> 00:41:41,869
Helen: and that of course, uh, for people
want to hear more about Clarksons sw.

1170
00:41:41,989 --> 00:41:45,499
We did, of course, review it in the
magazine last week, so that, I don't know.

1171
00:41:45,499 --> 00:41:45,709
Yeah.

1172
00:41:45,709 --> 00:41:51,259
I'm I and I, I will go to my grave
defending Clarkson's farm from you people.

1173
00:41:52,612 --> 00:41:55,872
Andy: this question of what you're
funding on a farm and, and how you

1174
00:41:55,872 --> 00:41:58,422
are, how you're paying farmers and
what you're incentivizing them to do is

1175
00:41:58,422 --> 00:42:01,542
something that bio waste spreader, who's
the eyes agricultural correspondent,

1176
00:42:01,542 --> 00:42:02,952
has been writing about, in fact.

1177
00:42:03,342 --> 00:42:07,708
Their column last week, was about
exactly this, it was about incentives

1178
00:42:07,708 --> 00:42:11,878
to farmers for, um, regenerating
your soil basically, rather than

1179
00:42:11,878 --> 00:42:13,853
growing food is it a good idea?

1180
00:42:13,883 --> 00:42:15,173
To what extent is it a good idea?

1181
00:42:15,233 --> 00:42:15,473
You know,

1182
00:42:15,953 --> 00:42:19,313
Helen: that column is often a
window into lots of, um, kango and

1183
00:42:19,313 --> 00:42:23,483
NGOs and environmental regulation
bodies that I had no idea existed.

1184
00:42:23,753 --> 00:42:23,933
Yeah.

1185
00:42:23,993 --> 00:42:26,063
Um, I think that's one of the
things that's interesting about

1186
00:42:26,063 --> 00:42:28,463
farming is, as you say, one of
the things, the fact that the.

1187
00:42:29,108 --> 00:42:31,478
The Labour force has
dropped out of it so much.

1188
00:42:31,838 --> 00:42:34,868
It means that it is kind of
less talked about, but obviously

1189
00:42:34,868 --> 00:42:36,488
still equally iMPortant.

1190
00:42:36,578 --> 00:42:36,788
Right?

1191
00:42:37,328 --> 00:42:37,628
Absolutely.

1192
00:42:37,658 --> 00:42:40,778
And we are looking at a situation I think
where there is real worries that the

1193
00:42:40,778 --> 00:42:44,228
rest of this year there are gonna be,
um, another set of food price inflation.

1194
00:42:44,258 --> 00:42:46,568
I mean, food price inflation the
last couple years has been a really

1195
00:42:46,568 --> 00:42:49,208
appalling and particularly so because
that affects the poorest people

1196
00:42:49,208 --> 00:42:53,138
most because if, you know, if the
price of luxury goods goes up 200%.

1197
00:42:53,548 --> 00:42:58,018
Well, okay, by slightly fewer Rolexes,
but if the price of bread goes up by

1198
00:42:58,018 --> 00:43:00,568
200%, it's a huge, huge catastrophe.

1199
00:43:00,568 --> 00:43:00,628
Yeah.

1200
00:43:00,748 --> 00:43:00,898
The

1201
00:43:00,898 --> 00:43:04,078
Andy: price rises are the stage
before food shortages to, uh, to add a

1202
00:43:04,083 --> 00:43:05,548
cheery note to proceedings, you know,

1203
00:43:06,508 --> 00:43:08,668
Helen: but the magazine, I should
say, does also have some jokes in it.

1204
00:43:09,958 --> 00:43:11,668
Andy: The cartoons are
very, very, very good.

1205
00:43:12,323 --> 00:43:15,143
And if you would like to see those
cartoons and if you'd like to read

1206
00:43:15,143 --> 00:43:18,413
the accoMPanying stories, uh, then
all you need to do is go to private

1207
00:43:18,413 --> 00:43:21,653
hyphenate.co uk and click subscribe.

1208
00:43:21,803 --> 00:43:23,483
It's incredibly reasonably priced.

1209
00:43:23,483 --> 00:43:25,913
It's very, very fractionally
more expensive than listening

1210
00:43:25,913 --> 00:43:27,203
to this podcast, which is free.

1211
00:43:27,413 --> 00:43:28,763
So go and do that.

1212
00:43:28,913 --> 00:43:33,413
Uh, until then, thank you very much to
Helen and Adam, and thank you to Matt

1213
00:43:33,413 --> 00:43:35,453
Hill who as always produced this episode.

1214
00:43:35,813 --> 00:43:39,443
And thank you to you for listening, and
we'll be back next time with another one.

1215
00:43:39,473 --> 00:43:39,893
Goodbye.