INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where

INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child protection

INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation.

INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection

INTRO: and share good practice on how we can all work

INTRO: together to keep babies, children and young

INTRO: people safe.

PRODUCER: Welcome to the NSPCC learning Podcast.

PRODUCER: In this episode, you'll hear a discussion

PRODUCER: between a panel of experts from the Social

PRODUCER: Workers with Deaf Children and Professionals

PRODUCER: Working Group.

PRODUCER: This discussion, recorded in October 2023,

PRODUCER: explores how the differing language and

PRODUCER: communication needs of d/Deaf children can

PRODUCER: affect their safety and the child protection

PRODUCER: support they receive.

PRODUCER: Shirley Wilson, senior development consultant at

PRODUCER: the NSPCC, chaired the panel.

SHIRLEY WILSON: I'm Shirley Wilson.

SHIRLEY WILSON: I've been working as a senior consultant

SHIRLEY WILSON: for the NSPCC now for 12

SHIRLEY WILSON: years in a specific role in relation

SHIRLEY WILSON: to d/Deaf and disabled children and young

SHIRLEY WILSON: people.

SHIRLEY WILSON: What that actually means is I'm

SHIRLEY WILSON: responsible for working with a range of

SHIRLEY WILSON: external organisations to support

SHIRLEY WILSON: their safeguarding arrangements.

SHIRLEY WILSON: And that includes things like bespoke

SHIRLEY WILSON: training, reviewing their child

SHIRLEY WILSON: protection/safeguarding policies and

SHIRLEY WILSON: procedures. And prior to the NSPCC, I

SHIRLEY WILSON: worked as a social worker and manager in a

SHIRLEY WILSON: number of local authorities.

SHIRLEY WILSON: So now I'm going to introduce our topic

SHIRLEY WILSON: for today.

SHIRLEY WILSON: The headline of this is we're going to be

SHIRLEY WILSON: talking about language and communication

SHIRLEY WILSON: in relation to safeguarding d/Deaf

SHIRLEY WILSON: children and young people.

SHIRLEY WILSON: And that links to their families, because

SHIRLEY WILSON: one of the things that we do know about is

SHIRLEY WILSON: that language and communication

SHIRLEY WILSON: barriers faced by d/Deaf children, young

SHIRLEY WILSON: people actually manifests itself

SHIRLEY WILSON: in a way that increases safeguarding

SHIRLEY WILSON: risk. And I want to explore that today.

SHIRLEY WILSON: Just briefly, I just want to say what the

SHIRLEY WILSON: social workers with d/Deaf children and

SHIRLEY WILSON: professionals is. It's actually an

SHIRLEY WILSON: external group of social workers and

SHIRLEY WILSON: allied professionals who are working in a

SHIRLEY WILSON: range of domains.

SHIRLEY WILSON: These include local authorities, academia,

SHIRLEY WILSON: mental health, research and the charities

SHIRLEY WILSON: sector, in relation to d/Deaf

SHIRLEY WILSON: children and their families across

SHIRLEY WILSON: England. We've been chairing this group

SHIRLEY WILSON: for a long time, and all of you are

SHIRLEY WILSON: longstanding members of the group.

SHIRLEY WILSON: But what I want to make reference to is

SHIRLEY WILSON: that we produced some guidance —

SHIRLEY WILSON: and I particularly want to highlight a

SHIRLEY WILSON: thanks to Chris

SHIRLEY WILSON: Mullen from the NDCS, who's no longer

SHIRLEY WILSON: working for them anymore, he's moved on to

SHIRLEY WILSON: other careers — but he spent a lot of time

SHIRLEY WILSON: preparing the guidance, called 'Guidance

SHIRLEY WILSON: for Safeguarding Partners in England:

SHIRLEY WILSON: d/Deaf Children, Young People and their

SHIRLEY WILSON: Families', which we put together over

SHIRLEY WILSON: quite a long period of time

SHIRLEY WILSON: as a big collaboration.

SHIRLEY WILSON: And that finally went on the website at

SHIRLEY WILSON: the NDCS in August 2022.

SHIRLEY WILSON: The guidance is actually supporting

SHIRLEY WILSON: safeguarding partners and their

SHIRLEY WILSON: partnership boards in England to

SHIRLEY WILSON: consider what the safeguarding needs

SHIRLEY WILSON: of d/Deaf children, young people and their

SHIRLEY WILSON: families are with regard to the services

SHIRLEY WILSON: they provide. Now that sounds quite

SHIRLEY WILSON: long-winded, and I think what we can

SHIRLEY WILSON: do now is do much more

SHIRLEY WILSON: of a relaxed discussion about what we're

SHIRLEY WILSON: looking at, and I've got a number of

SHIRLEY WILSON: questions that I'm going to bring into the

SHIRLEY WILSON: discussion. But first of all, I'd like

SHIRLEY WILSON: people to introduce themselves. So can I

SHIRLEY WILSON: start with Professor Alys Young, then

SHIRLEY WILSON: we'll do Jo, and then Tim, thank you very

SHIRLEY WILSON: much.

ALYS YOUNG: Thanks, Shirley. Hello everybody.

ALYS YOUNG: I my name is Alys Young and I've worked for

ALYS YOUNG: many, many years alongside d/Deaf colleagues

ALYS YOUNG: in social work and in research.

ALYS YOUNG: I'm professor of social work at the University

ALYS YOUNG: of Manchester, and I'm also the co-director

ALYS YOUNG: of the SORD Research Group.

ALYS YOUNG: SORD, which is social research with

ALYS YOUNG: deaf people.

JO HORNSBY: Hello, everyone, I'm Jo Hornsby.

JO HORNSBY: I'm a social worker and have been a specialist

JO HORNSBY: social worker working with d/Deaf children and

JO HORNSBY: young people for quite a few years

JO HORNSBY: now. I work for the local authority

JO HORNSBY: in Suffolk.

JO HORNSBY: I used to be part of a specialist service,

JO HORNSBY: which I feel very privileged to have been

JO HORNSBY: working during that time when there were

JO HORNSBY: specialist services.

JO HORNSBY: In more recent years.

JO HORNSBY: I've remained a specialist worker but within

JO HORNSBY: the disabled children and young people's team

JO HORNSBY: in children and young people's service in

JO HORNSBY: Suffolk.

TIM RICHARDSON: My name is Tim Richardson.

TIM RICHARDSON: I worked in national d/Deaf CAMHS, child

TIM RICHARDSON: and adolescent mental health services, from

TIM RICHARDSON: 2010.

TIM RICHARDSON: I was the manager of the northern arm of

TIM RICHARDSON: National d/Deaf CAMHS, but I was also

TIM RICHARDSON: part of the leading group for the national

TIM RICHARDSON: development of national d/Deaf CAMHS

TIM RICHARDSON: alongside people like Professor Barry

TIM RICHARDSON: Wright and Doctor Sophie Roberts.

SHIRLEY WILSON: So I'm going to kick off with the first

SHIRLEY WILSON: question.

SHIRLEY WILSON: I might initially ask Alys to do an

SHIRLEY WILSON: initial response and then let's all chip

SHIRLEY WILSON: in.

SHIRLEY WILSON: The first question is about what

SHIRLEY WILSON: the additional support that a d/Deaf

SHIRLEY WILSON: child might need in relation to reporting

SHIRLEY WILSON: abuse or making

SHIRLEY WILSON: a disclosure. So what I'm looking at here

SHIRLEY WILSON: is what might that look like and how do

SHIRLEY WILSON: you think they could receive this type of

SHIRLEY WILSON: support or how could this support be

SHIRLEY WILSON: developed. So I'll kick off with you

SHIRLEY WILSON: Alys, and then everybody else can chip in.

ALYS YOUNG: So it's a really, really important question.

ALYS YOUNG: But before I get to it, I just want to go one

ALYS YOUNG: step back, which is just to remind

ALYS YOUNG: people who are viewing this podcast

ALYS YOUNG: that we're talking about d/Deaf children now

ALYS YOUNG: at this point in the 21st century.

ALYS YOUNG: And that's really important because d/Deaf

ALYS YOUNG: children now and the conditions in which

ALYS YOUNG: they're growing up and what's available

ALYS YOUNG: for d/Deaf children and their families is very

ALYS YOUNG: different than 20 years ago or 30 years ago.

ALYS YOUNG: And that's quite an important point, because

ALYS YOUNG: some experienced professionals might have an

ALYS YOUNG: image in their mind about d/Deaf children's

ALYS YOUNG: capabilities or the barriers that d/Deaf

ALYS YOUNG: children face that was actually formed in

ALYS YOUNG: previous time rather than contemporary time.

ALYS YOUNG: So something that we're all going to be

ALYS YOUNG: talking about is deaf children now, not deaf

ALYS YOUNG: children in the past. That links really

ALYS YOUNG: for me to another point.

ALYS YOUNG: D/deaf children at this point in the 21st

ALYS YOUNG: century generally are identified

ALYS YOUNG: very early. So that means their d/Deafness is

ALYS YOUNG: recognised very early on in life, from

ALYS YOUNG: baby onwards.

ALYS YOUNG: And we have very sophisticated hearing

ALYS YOUNG: technologies that are available for d/Deaf

ALYS YOUNG: children now, whether they're hearing aids,

ALYS YOUNG: whether they're cochlear implants.

ALYS YOUNG: We've also got a society that's very welcoming

ALYS YOUNG: of sign language.

ALYS YOUNG: You're seeing sign language everywhere,

ALYS YOUNG: whether it's Strictly Come Dancing or Bake-Off

ALYS YOUNG: or, you know, it's just in the aether in

ALYS YOUNG: society. So some of the stigma around

ALYS YOUNG: that perhaps is dissipating a little bit.

ALYS YOUNG: And we've got the new BSL Act

ALYS YOUNG: that came in at the end of last year, which

ALYS YOUNG: formally recognises the legal status of sign

ALYS YOUNG: language. What I'm saying here is

ALYS YOUNG: there's a sort of assumption growing in my

ALYS YOUNG: view, that the conditions are right

ALYS YOUNG: for d/Deaf children really to be a bit like

ALYS YOUNG: hearing children.

ALYS YOUNG: There's a sense out there that really

ALYS YOUNG: there aren't that many difficulties here,

ALYS YOUNG: there aren't that many barriers, but the truth

ALYS YOUNG: is completely the opposite.

ALYS YOUNG: To give you some examples; if you are

ALYS YOUNG: a hearing professional or just a hearing

ALYS YOUNG: person who's not used to being

ALYS YOUNG: around d/Deaf people, either professionally or

ALYS YOUNG: socially, if you hear a child speak

ALYS YOUNG: well — with hearing aids, for example — you

ALYS YOUNG: might think that they understand well.

ALYS YOUNG: Actually, that's not true.

ALYS YOUNG: If you see a child who signs,

ALYS YOUNG: you might think that they read well.

ALYS YOUNG: That's not necessarily true.

ALYS YOUNG: That very fundamental difference between

ALYS YOUNG: expressive communication and receptive

ALYS YOUNG: communication, so how well you seem to be able

ALYS YOUNG: to communicate and how well you can

ALYS YOUNG: understand; these are very often not

ALYS YOUNG: equivalent for children and professionals

ALYS YOUNG: very frequently misinterpret that.

ALYS YOUNG: And so for me, the first barrier I'd like to

ALYS YOUNG: suggest around reporting is

ALYS YOUNG: the assumptions that adults make

ALYS YOUNG: about d/Deaf children's capabilities around

ALYS YOUNG: communication.

ALYS YOUNG: And very often in a situation where a child

ALYS YOUNG: might be wishing to report something terrible

ALYS YOUNG: that's been happening to them, their preferred

ALYS YOUNG: language is perhaps not recognised, or

ALYS YOUNG: their preferred way to interact is perhaps

ALYS YOUNG: not recognised because, after all, it's easier

ALYS YOUNG: just to think, "oh, a deaf child can speak,

ALYS YOUNG: it's fine, we'll just use spoken language." So

ALYS YOUNG: my first point is: what is the child's

ALYS YOUNG: preference and how do we understand that

ALYS YOUNG: and how do we meet that.

ALYS YOUNG: And if a child doesn't see that happening for

ALYS YOUNG: them then that's a major barrier to reporting.

ALYS YOUNG: But I wonder whether, Joanne, from your

ALYS YOUNG: practice, that's something that you would

ALYS YOUNG: agree with? Or have you seen a different point

ALYS YOUNG: of view?

JO HORNSBY: Yeah. No, completely.

JO HORNSBY: I mean, I think the key is absolutely to

JO HORNSBY: start with where that child is at and

JO HORNSBY: that child-centred approach

JO HORNSBY: and understanding the preferences of that

JO HORNSBY: child and really understanding how

JO HORNSBY: they are communicating and what their

JO HORNSBY: experiences are on a day-to-day basis.

JO HORNSBY: And that's where it's so important that there

JO HORNSBY: are professionals involved and around that

JO HORNSBY: child at that time

JO HORNSBY: to have that awareness, so that

JO HORNSBY: they can really understand what's going on for

JO HORNSBY: that child and to be able to communicate

JO HORNSBY: with that child and reach

JO HORNSBY: those issues that the child may be

JO HORNSBY: experiencing.

JO HORNSBY: And that's where perhaps we've seen

JO HORNSBY: a bit of a change

JO HORNSBY: over the past few years in that

JO HORNSBY: those specialist teams aren't there in the

JO HORNSBY: same way that they were.

JO HORNSBY: And there might be specialist workers, but it

JO HORNSBY: might be more difficult for that child

JO HORNSBY: to gain access to those.

JO HORNSBY: So, yes, it's very

JO HORNSBY: tricky. And of course, you know, it's also

JO HORNSBY: very important to be...

JO HORNSBY: I think when we often become involved,

JO HORNSBY: it's where families are really struggling.

JO HORNSBY: So it's also being able to

JO HORNSBY: understand where the parents are at and

JO HORNSBY: what experiences that parents have

JO HORNSBY: had. Obviously, as we know, most

JO HORNSBY: d/Deaf children are born to hearing parents.

JO HORNSBY: So we're, often working with

JO HORNSBY: people who may have had very limited,

JO HORNSBY: knowledge or experience of being

JO HORNSBY: around d/Deaf people in their

JO HORNSBY: lives, so this can be a real shock

JO HORNSBY: to them.

JO HORNSBY: And again, it's really

JO HORNSBY: important for those families to have access to

JO HORNSBY: workers who have got that awareness and

JO HORNSBY: understanding about what that family might be

JO HORNSBY: going through at that time.

SHIRLEY WILSON: That's great. Tim, have you got some

SHIRLEY WILSON: thoughts on this?

TIM RICHARDSON: Yes, thanks Shirley.

TIM RICHARDSON: I think at the risk of labouring the

TIM RICHARDSON: point, quite often d/Deaf children

TIM RICHARDSON: and young people will communicate in the

TIM RICHARDSON: way that the people around them can best

TIM RICHARDSON: receive. So they will modify their

TIM RICHARDSON: communication to meet the needs of those

TIM RICHARDSON: around them. I think going back to Alys'

TIM RICHARDSON: point, it's really key that before we even

TIM RICHARDSON: start out, don't make those assumptions.

TIM RICHARDSON: Don't be seduced by how well a

TIM RICHARDSON: young person might be communicating to

TIM RICHARDSON: think that that is their preferred way of

TIM RICHARDSON: communicating.

TIM RICHARDSON: It takes a little bit of effort,

TIM RICHARDSON: and what we would call something like

TIM RICHARDSON: scaffolding, not to take that face value

TIM RICHARDSON: thing, but to go back a step.

TIM RICHARDSON: For example, when you're talking about

TIM RICHARDSON: emotions, you might want to first talk

TIM RICHARDSON: about what an emotion is and have a real

TIM RICHARDSON: understanding that the young person

TIM RICHARDSON: understands what you're talking about

TIM RICHARDSON: before you then launch into what emotions

TIM RICHARDSON: a young person might be feeling.

TIM RICHARDSON: Key, I think, is having

TIM RICHARDSON: people who understand the d/Deaf

TIM RICHARDSON: experience and whether that be

TIM RICHARDSON: a deaf person is great,

TIM RICHARDSON: or a sign language interpreter; people

TIM RICHARDSON: who are going to be keyed in

TIM RICHARDSON: or more linked in with the language

TIM RICHARDSON: and the communication and to be able to

TIM RICHARDSON: pick up on those subtleties that, if

TIM RICHARDSON: you're not used to working with d/Deaf

TIM RICHARDSON: children and young people, you could very

TIM RICHARDSON: well miss out on.

ALYS YOUNG: Could I possibly just add to what you're

ALYS YOUNG: saying about emotion, Tim?

ALYS YOUNG: Because I think it's absolutely crucial here.

ALYS YOUNG: I think that, linked again to barriers

ALYS YOUNG: to reporting or barriers to abuse being

ALYS YOUNG: recognised by other people — because obviously

ALYS YOUNG: it's both things. It's a child reporting or in

ALYS YOUNG: some cases it might be an adult recognising

ALYS YOUNG: there's something wrong. So my point refers to

ALYS YOUNG: both. One of the things about d/Deafness,

ALYS YOUNG: whether you're a spoken language user or a

ALYS YOUNG: sign language user, is that there is an

ALYS YOUNG: interruption in some way to your ability to

ALYS YOUNG: pick up language, ideas,

ALYS YOUNG: general conversation,

ALYS YOUNG: kind of world knowledge, and d/Deaf children

ALYS YOUNG: in different ways experience

ALYS YOUNG: a lack in that. Some are superb, absolutely;

ALYS YOUNG: almost no filter, no difference.

ALYS YOUNG: But for many children there are significant

ALYS YOUNG: difficulties in learning

ALYS YOUNG: about nuances.

ALYS YOUNG: So, years ago, I remember a very well known,

ALYS YOUNG: professional working in this area used to talk

ALYS YOUNG: about emotionally toned language

ALYS YOUNG: so that if you are actually in conversations

ALYS YOUNG: all the time, you can pick up quite easily the

ALYS YOUNG: difference between being furious, being mildly

ALYS YOUNG: angry, being a little annoyed.

ALYS YOUNG: You pick up those differences in language, and

ALYS YOUNG: you develop inside the emotional toning

ALYS YOUNG: of your own understanding of the world.

ALYS YOUNG: I think for d/Deaf children, that's really

ALYS YOUNG: difficult to do if there are blocks in

ALYS YOUNG: access just to casual communication,

ALYS YOUNG: never mind anything else.

ALYS YOUNG: So then taking your point Tim, when you come

ALYS YOUNG: to a situation where a child might

ALYS YOUNG: have experienced abuse and you're asking

ALYS YOUNG: a question that's about emotion and about

ALYS YOUNG: understanding the world emotionally and

ALYS YOUNG: psychologically, that child might not

ALYS YOUNG: have the expected range of understanding

ALYS YOUNG: of a child of that age.

ALYS YOUNG: Or they might do. Again, we can't make

ALYS YOUNG: assumptions generally; every child is

ALYS YOUNG: different. But I think it is a really key

ALYS YOUNG: point that professionals who aren't

ALYS YOUNG: specialists, like Joanne was talking about,

ALYS YOUNG: are unlikely to realise is significant.

TIM RICHARDSON: I think that's absolutely spots on Alys,

TIM RICHARDSON: and I think it goes back to that asking

TIM RICHARDSON: the question behind that might feel a

TIM RICHARDSON: little bit obvious.

TIM RICHARDSON: But when you ask...

TIM RICHARDSON: Quite often we speak with young people...

TIM RICHARDSON: And this to contextualise it, the young

TIM RICHARDSON: people we work with have significant

TIM RICHARDSON: mental health issues. So we're talking

TIM RICHARDSON: about a particular population within a

TIM RICHARDSON: population. But very often it's not

TIM RICHARDSON: infrequent where the three emotions they

TIM RICHARDSON: can name are happy, angry and sad.

TIM RICHARDSON: So there's no nuance, going back to the

TIM RICHARDSON: toning.

TIM RICHARDSON: That also gets played out in behaviour.

TIM RICHARDSON: So you can go from a young person sitting

TIM RICHARDSON: there in the classroom to a young person

TIM RICHARDSON: acting out very aggressively and people

TIM RICHARDSON: around them being genuinely surprised

TIM RICHARDSON: about where that came from.

TIM RICHARDSON: But it almost mirrors their understanding

TIM RICHARDSON: of, because there was no language, there

TIM RICHARDSON: was no way to express "I'm starting to

TIM RICHARDSON: feel frustrated now."

SHIRLEY WILSON: Can I just add to this a slightly

SHIRLEY WILSON: different perspective, and then I'll move

SHIRLEY WILSON: on to the next question.

SHIRLEY WILSON: I've recently been doing some bespoke

SHIRLEY WILSON: training this year, particulary with

SHIRLEY WILSON: actually quite a few d/Deaf organisations.

SHIRLEY WILSON: It's been really positive that they've

SHIRLEY WILSON: been coming forward.

SHIRLEY WILSON: One of the things for me that I bring up

SHIRLEY WILSON: is the sign for abuse is

SHIRLEY WILSON: one: it's abuse.

SHIRLEY WILSON: You all know this, but I think the general

SHIRLEY WILSON: population just look at abuse.

SHIRLEY WILSON: What I've said to these d/Deaf adults,

SHIRLEY WILSON: because they work with d/Deaf young people

SHIRLEY WILSON: and children and their families, is: how

SHIRLEY WILSON: do you expect a child to be able to make a

SHIRLEY WILSON: disclosure if they think this [the BSL

SHIRLEY WILSON: sign for abuse] just means 'beating

SHIRLEY WILSON: up'. Where in actualy fact we need to go

SHIRLEY WILSON: into much greater detail about sexual

SHIRLEY WILSON: abuse, emotional abuse, neglect.

SHIRLEY WILSON: I'm

SHIRLEY WILSON: trying to get across to the d/Deaf

SHIRLEY WILSON: adult community, because I feel that they

SHIRLEY WILSON: also have a role to play in supporting the

SHIRLEY WILSON: work that happens out there.

SHIRLEY WILSON: Some of these organisations are absolutely

SHIRLEY WILSON: fantastic because they provide services

SHIRLEY WILSON: that the local authorities are unable to

SHIRLEY WILSON: provide now, so whether have the support

SHIRLEY WILSON: that they can help their groups.

SHIRLEY WILSON: And I feel that by them having a better

SHIRLEY WILSON: understanding, and when we have those

SHIRLEY WILSON: discussions about the word abuse, they

SHIRLEY WILSON: then start to unravel that.

SHIRLEY WILSON: I hope in time that that will then

SHIRLEY WILSON: filter down to the younger d/Deaf

SHIRLEY WILSON: population.

SHIRLEY WILSON: So I just wanted to add to that because I

SHIRLEY WILSON: think it really is quite critical.

ALYS YOUNG: We've talked a lot about the difficulties and

ALYS YOUNG: the problems. I'd like to throw in something

ALYS YOUNG: positive here, because I don't want somebody

ALYS YOUNG: looking at this podcast thinking every d/Deaf

ALYS YOUNG: child has a problem, you know, and every

ALYS YOUNG: d/Deaf child is likely to be abused.

ALYS YOUNG: I think one of the things that d/Deaf young

ALYS YOUNG: people do as peers — so when d/Deaf young

ALYS YOUNG: people are with other d/Deaf young people — is

ALYS YOUNG: that they can spot really quickly

ALYS YOUNG: whether there's something not quite right with

ALYS YOUNG: their friend or within their peer group.

ALYS YOUNG: And some of that acuity is a visual

ALYS YOUNG: acuity that hearing people don't have in the

ALYS YOUNG: same way. That visual recognition of

ALYS YOUNG: differences in facial expression, body tone,

ALYS YOUNG: nonverbal tone, that kind of thing.

ALYS YOUNG: The problem is that young d/Deaf people, as

ALYS YOUNG: peers, often don't know the route

ALYS YOUNG: to take their concerns.

ALYS YOUNG: So who is likely to believe them?

ALYS YOUNG: If they want to support their friend to say

ALYS YOUNG: something, who would that friend talk to?

ALYS YOUNG: Who is the trusted adult and the trusted

ALYS YOUNG: adult who can communicate?

ALYS YOUNG: Because we know from all the resilience

ALYS YOUNG: literature, for example, it just takes one

ALYS YOUNG: trusted adult that you feel comfortable

ALYS YOUNG: communicating with, and the young person's

ALYS YOUNG: world can just change.

ALYS YOUNG: But for d/Deaf young people, the number of

ALYS YOUNG: potentially trusted adults is a lot less,

ALYS YOUNG: particularly if, for example, abuse is

ALYS YOUNG: happening in a family.

ALYS YOUNG: And a family member that you might actually

ALYS YOUNG: feel comfortable with and want to talk to, you

ALYS YOUNG: just think you can't do that because they are

ALYS YOUNG: too closely connected with somebody who might

ALYS YOUNG: be creating an abusive situation.

SHIRLEY WILSON: Can I now move on to the next question, if

SHIRLEY WILSON: that's all right? Because I'm just conscious

SHIRLEY WILSON: we've got a lot we want to talk about

SHIRLEY WILSON: here. My next question is:

SHIRLEY WILSON: what barriers do you think might prevent

SHIRLEY WILSON: professionals from identifying

SHIRLEY WILSON: safeguarding concerns when working with

SHIRLEY WILSON: d/Deaf children and young people. Because

SHIRLEY WILSON: I think, obviously, you have a lot of

SHIRLEY WILSON: experience in that area.

TIM RICHARDSON: Alys already touched on that one of the

TIM RICHARDSON: barriers is having a route for a young

TIM RICHARDSON: person to express their concerns.

TIM RICHARDSON: And I suppose one of the things there is

TIM RICHARDSON: how do we facilitate communication

TIM RICHARDSON: generally and how do we create

TIM RICHARDSON: that space for a trusted person or a

TIM RICHARDSON: trusted dialogue, if you like?

TIM RICHARDSON: I think one of the barriers, historically

TIM RICHARDSON: and maybe still, is that

TIM RICHARDSON: there can be low expectations for d/Deaf

TIM RICHARDSON: children and young people that can be

TIM RICHARDSON: sometimes within families, and it can also

TIM RICHARDSON: be within professional groups.

TIM RICHARDSON: So what we would expect, for example,

TIM RICHARDSON: in terms of what language a young

TIM RICHARDSON: person or a child might have; that might

TIM RICHARDSON: be modified. And we've sadly seen

TIM RICHARDSON: actual cases where that is and that's led

TIM RICHARDSON: to tragic outcomes, where we've not

TIM RICHARDSON: accepted that it's not okay for a young

TIM RICHARDSON: person, d/Deaf or hearing to not have a

TIM RICHARDSON: language at the age of three.

TIM RICHARDSON: So, I think a lot of this — I mean,

TIM RICHARDSON: sometimes I feel a bit like a stuck record

TIM RICHARDSON: — but a lot of it comes back to language

TIM RICHARDSON: and communication and making sure we get

TIM RICHARDSON: that bedrock right.

TIM RICHARDSON: The effort should be on the part of us as

TIM RICHARDSON: professionals and the people around the

TIM RICHARDSON: child to create as many opportunities

TIM RICHARDSON: for that young person to express

TIM RICHARDSON: themselves in the way that is their

TIM RICHARDSON: preferred way.

JO HORNSBY: I was just thinking about all of the

JO HORNSBY: complications, just thinking about the

JO HORNSBY: process, you know, that a child

JO HORNSBY: and a family have had to go through, and

JO HORNSBY: there's so many complications in that process,

JO HORNSBY: isn't there.

JO HORNSBY: From the outset we've got children who have

JO HORNSBY: got those language and communication barriers,

JO HORNSBY: so they may not have the language to be able

JO HORNSBY: to name and tell

JO HORNSBY: us what is going on for them in the first

JO HORNSBY: place. Then, do they have a trusted

JO HORNSBY: person to go to to say that?

JO HORNSBY: And is that trusted person somehow

JO HORNSBY: incorporated in what's going on for them?

JO HORNSBY: That's a complication in itself.

JO HORNSBY: And then you've got to work

JO HORNSBY: the way through a potentially difficult

JO HORNSBY: system, where professionals are perhaps

JO HORNSBY: not having the awareness

JO HORNSBY: to then respond as that child needs them to

JO HORNSBY: respond. So there are so many complications,

JO HORNSBY: aren't there, along that route.

JO HORNSBY: And then, of course, if a child has made

JO HORNSBY: a disclosure, in order to then be able to

JO HORNSBY: progress with that situation and to

JO HORNSBY: take some action, and for there to be some

JO HORNSBY: outcome from it, you need the detail.

JO HORNSBY: You need the evidence. You need the child to

JO HORNSBY: be able to explain to you what has happened.

JO HORNSBY: And, of course, that's a highly complicated

JO HORNSBY: process and requires a deep

JO HORNSBY: understanding, as we've said, about how that

JO HORNSBY: child communicates. What's their preferred way

JO HORNSBY: of expressing that, and

JO HORNSBY: then having the awareness and ability to be

JO HORNSBY: able to respond to that. The professionals in

JO HORNSBY: that process need to have good awareness and

JO HORNSBY: good communication skills, and then access to

JO HORNSBY: interpreting services, interpreters

JO HORNSBY: who are appropriately trained, and can

JO HORNSBY: respond in the appropriate ways.

JO HORNSBY: So there's so many points along

JO HORNSBY: that process where things can

JO HORNSBY: fall down and where we don't manage

JO HORNSBY: to respond in the way that we should do for

JO HORNSBY: that child to get to the place where we need

JO HORNSBY: to be.

SHIRLEY WILSON: Thank you. I don't want to stop the

SHIRLEY WILSON: conversation, because I think the next

SHIRLEY WILSON: question actually is going to be

SHIRLEY WILSON: incorporating a lot of what you've already

SHIRLEY WILSON: started. I want to expand on that a bit

SHIRLEY WILSON: more, because I think the systematic

SHIRLEY WILSON: process of child protection procedures is

SHIRLEY WILSON: a big barrier. For me,

SHIRLEY WILSON: the next question I think — Tim, if I can

SHIRLEY WILSON: ask you to start this off — what do

SHIRLEY WILSON: you think professionals could do to

SHIRLEY WILSON: develop effective multi-agency

SHIRLEY WILSON: partnership, that not only considers

SHIRLEY WILSON: the needs, but for me it's about

SHIRLEY WILSON: how does it strengthen the response of

SHIRLEY WILSON: meaningful services? Crux of the matter,

SHIRLEY WILSON: it's about meaningful services to children

SHIRLEY WILSON: and their families.

TIM RICHARDSON: Yeah. I think it it goes...

TIM RICHARDSON: it links in with the work we've done

TIM RICHARDSON: within the group.

TIM RICHARDSON: It's thinking about doing things before.

TIM RICHARDSON: So establishing foundations,

TIM RICHARDSON: establishing networks locally, introducing

TIM RICHARDSON: the issues for d/Deaf children and young

TIM RICHARDSON: people to groups like in schools

TIM RICHARDSON: and social care.

TIM RICHARDSON: What you'll find is when you do that,

TIM RICHARDSON: there's always a cohort of people who are

TIM RICHARDSON: really interested, who really want to take

TIM RICHARDSON: up...

TIM RICHARDSON: pick up the panel with us, you know, sort

TIM RICHARDSON: of thing. Even if they haven't had BSL

TIM RICHARDSON: or they haven't got any prior knowledge of

TIM RICHARDSON: working with d/Deaf people, there are

TIM RICHARDSON: people who are genuinely captivated by it,

TIM RICHARDSON: who will be natural allies in terms

TIM RICHARDSON: of people to go to, whether that be in a

TIM RICHARDSON: social services department, or in health

TIM RICHARDSON: or in education. In general it is about, I

TIM RICHARDSON: think, there's something about their needs

TIM RICHARDSON: to be work beforehand to set up, to

TIM RICHARDSON: find where are our natural allies.

TIM RICHARDSON: Getting out there, doing a bit of

TIM RICHARDSON: awareness raising, as well as offering

TIM RICHARDSON: training where appropriate,

TIM RICHARDSON: and trying to build those.

TIM RICHARDSON: Now, there are natural places like the

TIM RICHARDSON: safeguarding boards and the like, where

TIM RICHARDSON: I think you could build that in.

JO HORNSBY: One of the things that, as a specialist worker

JO HORNSBY: and alongside my specialist colleagues,

JO HORNSBY: is that it's keeping deaf children on, on the

JO HORNSBY: agenda. Wherever you go it's

JO HORNSBY: making sure that it's mentioned and,

JO HORNSBY: you know, I think people get really fed up

JO HORNSBY: with us with doing that, but we do do that.

JO HORNSBY: Any meeting, any training, any

JO HORNSBY: place where people are coming together,

JO HORNSBY: you say "what about how would that be for a

JO HORNSBY: deaf child in that situation?" You know, let's

JO HORNSBY: think about that. So it's keeping

JO HORNSBY: the deaf children on the agenda.

JO HORNSBY: And I mean d/Deaf awareness was something that

JO HORNSBY: we used to do very frequently.

JO HORNSBY: And, of course, with the pressures — and this

JO HORNSBY: is the reality of the current times — is that

JO HORNSBY: those things like d/Deaf awareness training

JO HORNSBY: get pushed to the side a bit.

JO HORNSBY: And of course, it's so vital that that happens

JO HORNSBY: because it is through that...

JO HORNSBY: Yeah, we always used to come away with a

JO HORNSBY: little fan group that, as you said Tim,

JO HORNSBY: they are interested and they want to find

JO HORNSBY: out about it.

JO HORNSBY: Being able to continue to do that d/Deaf

JO HORNSBY: awareness training with colleagues is really

JO HORNSBY: vital, I think, particular to perhaps teams

JO HORNSBY: that are at that coalface, like the MASH for

JO HORNSBY: example, who are receiving those referrals

JO HORNSBY: in who really need to have that awareness.

JO HORNSBY: And of course it needs to be something that's

JO HORNSBY: ongoing, you can't just do it once and it's

JO HORNSBY: done. It needs to be something that's done

JO HORNSBY: over and over again, doesn't it?

JO HORNSBY: Because, you know, obviously information

JO HORNSBY: changes, but also workers move on and

JO HORNSBY: so there's different people who need to have

JO HORNSBY: that awareness.

SHIRLEY WILSON: Thank you very much.

ALYS YOUNG: Before I say my point, Jo, what's MASH?

JO HORNSBY: Oh MASH, sorry about that.

JO HORNSBY: They're the multi-agency safeguarding

JO HORNSBY: hub. So that's the team

JO HORNSBY: that receive those referrals

JO HORNSBY: and are then processing that.

JO HORNSBY: So yes, very important that they

JO HORNSBY: have that awareness.

ALYS YOUNG: Thanks for that. So the point I wanted to

ALYS YOUNG: make: Shirley, you're asking us, really,

ALYS YOUNG: about specialists as well

ALYS YOUNG: within this process.

ALYS YOUNG: I suppose I've got three points I want to

ALYS YOUNG: make. I absolutely, totally endorse what

ALYS YOUNG: everybody said about needing very high

ALYS YOUNG: quality, experienced interpreters

ALYS YOUNG: who know what they're doing in child

ALYS YOUNG: protection.

ALYS YOUNG: But interpreters do not solve the problem.

ALYS YOUNG: And I've met too many social work

ALYS YOUNG: professionals who think that they can manage

ALYS YOUNG: a quite serious child safeguarding incident

ALYS YOUNG: involving a d/Deaf child if they just bring an

ALYS YOUNG: interpreter in, and then all the difficulties

ALYS YOUNG: suddenly disappear.

ALYS YOUNG: So I'd really like to clearly say that's not

ALYS YOUNG: the case, because as all of us have said all

ALYS YOUNG: the way through this podcast, it's actually

ALYS YOUNG: you need to understand d/Deaf children.

ALYS YOUNG: You need to understand communication, language

ALYS YOUNG: development, d/Deaf child experience, if

ALYS YOUNG: you're going to be standing alongside that

ALYS YOUNG: child in such a difficult situation; but also

ALYS YOUNG: make sense of all of the steps in the

ALYS YOUNG: safeguarding process.

ALYS YOUNG: So an interpreter is vital — doesn't solve the

ALYS YOUNG: problem. There are, however, really good

ALYS YOUNG: d/Deaf professionals out there who are

ALYS YOUNG: incredibly well qualified as well.

ALYS YOUNG: They're quite rare, and sometimes they don't

ALYS YOUNG: work directly as social workers; sometimes

ALYS YOUNG: they do. I think there needs to be a point

ALYS YOUNG: at which somebody asks themselves, "where

ALYS YOUNG: is the d/Deaf person in this safeguarding

ALYS YOUNG: process or in this child protection process?"

ALYS YOUNG: Because whatever role that d/Deaf person is

ALYS YOUNG: playing professionally, they will bring some

ALYS YOUNG: things that hearing people do not have and can

ALYS YOUNG: never have.

ALYS YOUNG: And so where is the d/Deaf person in the

ALYS YOUNG: process professionally is a really important

ALYS YOUNG: question. And my last question, or my

ALYS YOUNG: last point, is a question I constantly asked

ALYS YOUNG: myself when I was in practice, which is what

ALYS YOUNG: is the limit of my expertise and

ALYS YOUNG: what is the limit of my knowledge?

ALYS YOUNG: So that process of reflection as a

ALYS YOUNG: professional, every step of the way, so that

ALYS YOUNG: you recognise when you can't do something,

ALYS YOUNG: when you don't know enough, when you need

ALYS YOUNG: another person in the room supporting you.

ALYS YOUNG: And I think there's not enough of that

ALYS YOUNG: questioning that happens these days because,

ALYS YOUNG: as Jo, you've already said, social work

ALYS YOUNG: departments are under huge pressure, so you

ALYS YOUNG: get allocated, you just do the job

ALYS YOUNG: and that scope for reflection and just

ALYS YOUNG: stopping and saying, "I'm not good enough, I

ALYS YOUNG: don't know enough." There's very little space

ALYS YOUNG: for that these days.

SHIRLEY WILSON: We have already talked about what is the

SHIRLEY WILSON: impact of disappearing specialist

SHIRLEY WILSON: knowledge in practice for working

SHIRLEY WILSON: with d/Deaf children, and we know that

SHIRLEY WILSON: from the social workers group.

SHIRLEY WILSON: So I just wonder who wants to answer this:

SHIRLEY WILSON: is there any miracle

SHIRLEY WILSON: that we can look at to addressing this in

SHIRLEY WILSON: current society.

JO HORNSBY: Yeah, I mean it's it's a really, really

JO HORNSBY: challenging question, isn't it?

JO HORNSBY: Because we know that the reality is

JO HORNSBY: that there's tremendous pressures on local

JO HORNSBY: authority children's services and the

JO HORNSBY: pressures are relentless.

JO HORNSBY: So the days of the specialist service feels

JO HORNSBY: like there's not going to be, you know, it

JO HORNSBY: feels to me like there's not going to be

JO HORNSBY: a great change in that right at the moment.

JO HORNSBY: So perhaps it is about, doing

JO HORNSBY: what we're doing already in terms of

JO HORNSBY: raising the awareness, keeping the subject

JO HORNSBY: on the agenda.

JO HORNSBY: I mean, for us — myself and my

JO HORNSBY: colleagues who were part of that specialist

JO HORNSBY: service and have that memory of that —

JO HORNSBY: one of the things that we do is we ensure that

JO HORNSBY: we keep those relationships going.

JO HORNSBY: We make sure that we liaise with our

JO HORNSBY: colleagues, the teachers of the d/Deaf,

JO HORNSBY: and colleagues in audiology, so that

JO HORNSBY: we're retaining that old model to some degree

JO HORNSBY: in terms of working together and talking

JO HORNSBY: things through and having those conversations

JO HORNSBY: about individual children.

JO HORNSBY: And I think that that helps.

TIM RICHARDSON: Yeah. I just wonder if it's such a

TIM RICHARDSON: significant gap, and the right thing

TIM RICHARDSON: is to have that specialist knowledge, then

TIM RICHARDSON: our efforts should be going to have that

TIM RICHARDSON: reinstated rather than trying to

TIM RICHARDSON: plug the gaps.

TIM RICHARDSON: And I think that we've kind of got

TIM RICHARDSON: into a way of working where that's what we

TIM RICHARDSON: do. We try and make up for what's

TIM RICHARDSON: missing by cobbling things together.

TIM RICHARDSON: I think it's worth, where we still

TIM RICHARDSON: have that, if we could evidence what

TIM RICHARDSON: difference that makes and be pushing for

TIM RICHARDSON: what should be in place rather than

TIM RICHARDSON: accepting that it's not in place and covering for it.

SHIRLEY WILSON: Thank you. Alys?

ALYS YOUNG: I agree with both of you.

ALYS YOUNG: I did some research about the demise of

ALYS YOUNG: specialist social work teams a few years ago.

ALYS YOUNG: One of our respondents described themselves

ALYS YOUNG: when I said, "what do you do?" They said, "I'm

ALYS YOUNG: a gap filler. I do the thing nobody else does

ALYS YOUNG: that d/Deaf children and families need.

ALYS YOUNG: And that's the definition of my job." In that

ALYS YOUNG: same piece of research, we asked many local

ALYS YOUNG: authorities to tell us who's the specialist

ALYS YOUNG: designated worker might be, because that's

ALYS YOUNG: somebody we needed to reach in order to do the

ALYS YOUNG: research.

ALYS YOUNG: Most, and I genuinely mean most,

ALYS YOUNG: couldn't tell us who their specialist social

ALYS YOUNG: work professional might be, because the system

ALYS YOUNG: said if there's a deaf child that comes to

ALYS YOUNG: notice around a child protection concern,

ALYS YOUNG: it goes into whatever the generic team is,

ALYS YOUNG: whether that's a children and families team or

ALYS YOUNG: disabilities team.

ALYS YOUNG: And that structure covers up

ALYS YOUNG: those pockets of specialism that still exist

ALYS YOUNG: as well, which is another problem in this.

ALYS YOUNG: But going back to your point, Tim.

ALYS YOUNG: I think we do need to evidence things a bit

ALYS YOUNG: more — I'm bound to say this working in a

ALYS YOUNG: research department, but nonetheless — we need

ALYS YOUNG: to evidence

ALYS YOUNG: the harm and the unnecessary

ALYS YOUNG: harm that happens to d/Deaf children

ALYS YOUNG: because of late recognition

ALYS YOUNG: when abuse happens, or because social services

ALYS YOUNG: are only able to respond to the most extreme

ALYS YOUNG: emergency or the most extreme manifestation

ALYS YOUNG: of harm.

ALYS YOUNG: And we also need to evidence good practice

ALYS YOUNG: because it's still there.

ALYS YOUNG: It's just very, very hidden.

ALYS YOUNG: So what difference is it making that people

ALYS YOUNG: like you, Jo, are working in the way you're

ALYS YOUNG: working?

ALYS YOUNG: How is that quantified?

ALYS YOUNG: And I know social workers are not that keen on

ALYS YOUNG: things being quantified, but actually

ALYS YOUNG: quantifying what makes a difference is

ALYS YOUNG: really important. And I think the third button

ALYS YOUNG: to press, if you like, is the 'rights' button.

ALYS YOUNG: So children's rights and understanding

ALYS YOUNG: the way in which services might not be

ALYS YOUNG: adequate from the perspective of the rights of

ALYS YOUNG: the child as opposed to what can a service

ALYS YOUNG: provide. So changing the framework

ALYS YOUNG: a little bit in how we talk about the problem.

ALYS YOUNG: I think that might create some pressure around

ALYS YOUNG: supporting specialist social work development

ALYS YOUNG: a bit more.

SHIRLEY WILSON: Thank you very much indeed for your

SHIRLEY WILSON: contributions. I think this is a good

SHIRLEY WILSON: place now to actually conclude our

SHIRLEY WILSON: discussion.

SHIRLEY WILSON: I want to say a massive thank you very

SHIRLEY WILSON: much to Tim Richardson, Professor

SHIRLEY WILSON: Alys Young, and Jo Hornsby for joining us

SHIRLEY WILSON: today. And I hope this has been a really

SHIRLEY WILSON: useful podcast for moving on.

SHIRLEY WILSON: Thank you very much indeed for all of your

SHIRLEY WILSON: time.

OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC learning

OUTRO: Podcast.

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OUTRO: was up to date, but the world of safeguarding and

OUTRO: child protection is ever-changing.

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