1 00:00:03,070 --> 00:00:06,039 INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:08,979 INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child protection 3 00:00:08,980 --> 00:00:12,219 INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation. 4 00:00:12,220 --> 00:00:15,159 INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection 5 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:17,589 INTRO: and share good practice on how we can all work 6 00:00:17,590 --> 00:00:20,499 INTRO: together to keep babies, children and young 7 00:00:20,500 --> 00:00:21,500 INTRO: people safe. 8 00:00:24,510 --> 00:00:28,019 PRODUCER: Welcome to the NSPCC learning Podcast. 9 00:00:28,020 --> 00:00:29,879 PRODUCER: In this episode, you'll hear a discussion 10 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:32,008 PRODUCER: between a panel of experts from the Social 11 00:00:32,009 --> 00:00:34,079 PRODUCER: Workers with Deaf Children and Professionals 12 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:35,739 PRODUCER: Working Group. 13 00:00:35,740 --> 00:00:39,009 PRODUCER: This discussion, recorded in October 2023, 14 00:00:39,010 --> 00:00:40,839 PRODUCER: explores how the differing language and 15 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,209 PRODUCER: communication needs of d/Deaf children can 16 00:00:43,210 --> 00:00:45,309 PRODUCER: affect their safety and the child protection 17 00:00:45,310 --> 00:00:47,399 PRODUCER: support they receive. 18 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:49,829 PRODUCER: Shirley Wilson, senior development consultant at 19 00:00:49,830 --> 00:00:52,319 PRODUCER: the NSPCC, chaired the panel. 20 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:53,579 SHIRLEY WILSON: I'm Shirley Wilson. 21 00:00:53,580 --> 00:00:56,429 SHIRLEY WILSON: I've been working as a senior consultant 22 00:00:56,430 --> 00:00:59,489 SHIRLEY WILSON: for the NSPCC now for 12 23 00:00:59,490 --> 00:01:02,459 SHIRLEY WILSON: years in a specific role in relation 24 00:01:02,460 --> 00:01:04,619 SHIRLEY WILSON: to d/Deaf and disabled children and young 25 00:01:04,620 --> 00:01:05,879 SHIRLEY WILSON: people. 26 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:07,623 SHIRLEY WILSON: What that actually means is I'm 27 00:01:07,624 --> 00:01:10,799 SHIRLEY WILSON: responsible for working with a range of 28 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,829 SHIRLEY WILSON: external organisations to support 29 00:01:13,830 --> 00:01:15,989 SHIRLEY WILSON: their safeguarding arrangements. 30 00:01:15,990 --> 00:01:18,059 SHIRLEY WILSON: And that includes things like bespoke 31 00:01:18,060 --> 00:01:20,279 SHIRLEY WILSON: training, reviewing their child 32 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:22,019 SHIRLEY WILSON: protection/safeguarding policies and 33 00:01:22,020 --> 00:01:24,959 SHIRLEY WILSON: procedures. And prior to the NSPCC, I 34 00:01:24,960 --> 00:01:26,879 SHIRLEY WILSON: worked as a social worker and manager in a 35 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:27,880 SHIRLEY WILSON: number of local authorities. 36 00:01:29,380 --> 00:01:32,109 SHIRLEY WILSON: So now I'm going to introduce our topic 37 00:01:32,110 --> 00:01:33,819 SHIRLEY WILSON: for today. 38 00:01:33,820 --> 00:01:36,759 SHIRLEY WILSON: The headline of this is we're going to be 39 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,489 SHIRLEY WILSON: talking about language and communication 40 00:01:39,490 --> 00:01:42,429 SHIRLEY WILSON: in relation to safeguarding d/Deaf 41 00:01:42,430 --> 00:01:44,319 SHIRLEY WILSON: children and young people. 42 00:01:44,320 --> 00:01:46,539 SHIRLEY WILSON: And that links to their families, because 43 00:01:46,540 --> 00:01:48,219 SHIRLEY WILSON: one of the things that we do know about is 44 00:01:48,220 --> 00:01:51,579 SHIRLEY WILSON: that language and communication 45 00:01:51,580 --> 00:01:54,159 SHIRLEY WILSON: barriers faced by d/Deaf children, young 46 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:57,069 SHIRLEY WILSON: people actually manifests itself 47 00:01:57,070 --> 00:02:00,129 SHIRLEY WILSON: in a way that increases safeguarding 48 00:02:00,130 --> 00:02:02,829 SHIRLEY WILSON: risk. And I want to explore that today. 49 00:02:02,830 --> 00:02:05,289 SHIRLEY WILSON: Just briefly, I just want to say what the 50 00:02:05,290 --> 00:02:07,179 SHIRLEY WILSON: social workers with d/Deaf children and 51 00:02:07,180 --> 00:02:09,309 SHIRLEY WILSON: professionals is. It's actually an 52 00:02:09,310 --> 00:02:12,249 SHIRLEY WILSON: external group of social workers and 53 00:02:12,250 --> 00:02:15,039 SHIRLEY WILSON: allied professionals who are working in a 54 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:16,040 SHIRLEY WILSON: range of domains. 55 00:02:17,410 --> 00:02:21,039 SHIRLEY WILSON: These include local authorities, academia, 56 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:24,049 SHIRLEY WILSON: mental health, research and the charities 57 00:02:24,050 --> 00:02:27,069 SHIRLEY WILSON: sector, in relation to d/Deaf 58 00:02:27,070 --> 00:02:29,229 SHIRLEY WILSON: children and their families across 59 00:02:29,230 --> 00:02:31,779 SHIRLEY WILSON: England. We've been chairing this group 60 00:02:31,780 --> 00:02:33,759 SHIRLEY WILSON: for a long time, and all of you are 61 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,489 SHIRLEY WILSON: longstanding members of the group. 62 00:02:36,490 --> 00:02:38,739 SHIRLEY WILSON: But what I want to make reference to is 63 00:02:38,740 --> 00:02:40,314 SHIRLEY WILSON: that we produced some guidance — 64 00:02:42,190 --> 00:02:44,012 SHIRLEY WILSON: and I particularly want to highlight a 65 00:02:44,013 --> 00:02:47,439 SHIRLEY WILSON: thanks to Chris 66 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,229 SHIRLEY WILSON: Mullen from the NDCS, who's no longer 67 00:02:50,230 --> 00:02:52,539 SHIRLEY WILSON: working for them anymore, he's moved on to 68 00:02:52,540 --> 00:02:55,439 SHIRLEY WILSON: other careers — but he spent a lot of time 69 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:58,569 SHIRLEY WILSON: preparing the guidance, called 'Guidance 70 00:02:58,570 --> 00:03:00,527 SHIRLEY WILSON: for Safeguarding Partners in England: 71 00:03:00,528 --> 00:03:03,339 SHIRLEY WILSON: d/Deaf Children, Young People and their 72 00:03:03,340 --> 00:03:05,154 SHIRLEY WILSON: Families', which we put together over 73 00:03:05,155 --> 00:03:08,949 SHIRLEY WILSON: quite a long period of time 74 00:03:08,950 --> 00:03:11,199 SHIRLEY WILSON: as a big collaboration. 75 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:13,034 SHIRLEY WILSON: And that finally went on the website at 76 00:03:13,035 --> 00:03:15,756 SHIRLEY WILSON: the NDCS in August 2022. 77 00:03:17,770 --> 00:03:20,769 SHIRLEY WILSON: The guidance is actually supporting 78 00:03:20,770 --> 00:03:22,839 SHIRLEY WILSON: safeguarding partners and their 79 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:25,839 SHIRLEY WILSON: partnership boards in England to 80 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,869 SHIRLEY WILSON: consider what the safeguarding needs 81 00:03:28,870 --> 00:03:31,059 SHIRLEY WILSON: of d/Deaf children, young people and their 82 00:03:31,060 --> 00:03:34,089 SHIRLEY WILSON: families are with regard to the services 83 00:03:34,090 --> 00:03:35,769 SHIRLEY WILSON: they provide. Now that sounds quite 84 00:03:35,770 --> 00:03:38,739 SHIRLEY WILSON: long-winded, and I think what we can 85 00:03:38,740 --> 00:03:41,709 SHIRLEY WILSON: do now is do much more 86 00:03:41,710 --> 00:03:43,659 SHIRLEY WILSON: of a relaxed discussion about what we're 87 00:03:43,660 --> 00:03:45,189 SHIRLEY WILSON: looking at, and I've got a number of 88 00:03:45,190 --> 00:03:48,039 SHIRLEY WILSON: questions that I'm going to bring into the 89 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:50,319 SHIRLEY WILSON: discussion. But first of all, I'd like 90 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:52,513 SHIRLEY WILSON: people to introduce themselves. So can I 91 00:03:52,514 --> 00:03:55,209 SHIRLEY WILSON: start with Professor Alys Young, then 92 00:03:55,210 --> 00:03:57,489 SHIRLEY WILSON: we'll do Jo, and then Tim, thank you very 93 00:03:57,490 --> 00:03:58,569 SHIRLEY WILSON: much. 94 00:03:58,570 --> 00:03:59,889 ALYS YOUNG: Thanks, Shirley. Hello everybody. 95 00:03:59,890 --> 00:04:02,619 ALYS YOUNG: I my name is Alys Young and I've worked for 96 00:04:02,620 --> 00:04:05,559 ALYS YOUNG: many, many years alongside d/Deaf colleagues 97 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:07,389 ALYS YOUNG: in social work and in research. 98 00:04:07,390 --> 00:04:09,129 ALYS YOUNG: I'm professor of social work at the University 99 00:04:09,130 --> 00:04:12,759 ALYS YOUNG: of Manchester, and I'm also the co-director 100 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:14,177 ALYS YOUNG: of the SORD Research Group. 101 00:04:14,178 --> 00:04:17,229 ALYS YOUNG: SORD, which is social research with 102 00:04:17,230 --> 00:04:18,759 ALYS YOUNG: deaf people. 103 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,909 JO HORNSBY: Hello, everyone, I'm Jo Hornsby. 104 00:04:21,910 --> 00:04:24,549 JO HORNSBY: I'm a social worker and have been a specialist 105 00:04:24,550 --> 00:04:26,559 JO HORNSBY: social worker working with d/Deaf children and 106 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,619 JO HORNSBY: young people for quite a few years 107 00:04:29,620 --> 00:04:32,859 JO HORNSBY: now. I work for the local authority 108 00:04:32,860 --> 00:04:34,209 JO HORNSBY: in Suffolk. 109 00:04:35,650 --> 00:04:39,129 JO HORNSBY: I used to be part of a specialist service, 110 00:04:39,130 --> 00:04:41,805 JO HORNSBY: which I feel very privileged to have been 111 00:04:41,806 --> 00:04:44,320 JO HORNSBY: working during that time when there were 112 00:04:45,340 --> 00:04:47,229 JO HORNSBY: specialist services. 113 00:04:47,230 --> 00:04:49,089 JO HORNSBY: In more recent years. 114 00:04:49,090 --> 00:04:52,479 JO HORNSBY: I've remained a specialist worker but within 115 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:54,999 JO HORNSBY: the disabled children and young people's team 116 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:57,009 JO HORNSBY: in children and young people's service in 117 00:04:57,010 --> 00:04:57,819 JO HORNSBY: Suffolk. 118 00:04:57,820 --> 00:04:59,679 TIM RICHARDSON: My name is Tim Richardson. 119 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:02,709 TIM RICHARDSON: I worked in national d/Deaf CAMHS, child 120 00:05:02,710 --> 00:05:03,979 TIM RICHARDSON: and adolescent mental health services, from 121 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:07,359 TIM RICHARDSON: 2010. 122 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,449 TIM RICHARDSON: I was the manager of the northern arm of 123 00:05:10,450 --> 00:05:13,389 TIM RICHARDSON: National d/Deaf CAMHS, but I was also 124 00:05:13,390 --> 00:05:15,639 TIM RICHARDSON: part of the leading group for the national 125 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:17,649 TIM RICHARDSON: development of national d/Deaf CAMHS 126 00:05:17,650 --> 00:05:20,049 TIM RICHARDSON: alongside people like Professor Barry 127 00:05:20,050 --> 00:05:23,709 TIM RICHARDSON: Wright and Doctor Sophie Roberts. 128 00:05:23,710 --> 00:05:25,449 SHIRLEY WILSON: So I'm going to kick off with the first 129 00:05:25,450 --> 00:05:27,109 SHIRLEY WILSON: question. 130 00:05:27,110 --> 00:05:30,609 SHIRLEY WILSON: I might initially ask Alys to do an 131 00:05:30,610 --> 00:05:32,748 SHIRLEY WILSON: initial response and then let's all chip 132 00:05:32,749 --> 00:05:33,749 SHIRLEY WILSON: in. 133 00:05:34,540 --> 00:05:37,539 SHIRLEY WILSON: The first question is about what 134 00:05:37,540 --> 00:05:40,629 SHIRLEY WILSON: the additional support that a d/Deaf 135 00:05:40,630 --> 00:05:43,389 SHIRLEY WILSON: child might need in relation to reporting 136 00:05:43,390 --> 00:05:44,390 SHIRLEY WILSON: abuse or making 137 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:48,189 SHIRLEY WILSON: a disclosure. So what I'm looking at here 138 00:05:48,190 --> 00:05:50,559 SHIRLEY WILSON: is what might that look like and how do 139 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:53,139 SHIRLEY WILSON: you think they could receive this type of 140 00:05:53,140 --> 00:05:55,929 SHIRLEY WILSON: support or how could this support be 141 00:05:55,930 --> 00:05:58,989 SHIRLEY WILSON: developed. So I'll kick off with you 142 00:05:58,990 --> 00:06:01,539 SHIRLEY WILSON: Alys, and then everybody else can chip in. 143 00:06:01,540 --> 00:06:03,939 ALYS YOUNG: So it's a really, really important question. 144 00:06:05,740 --> 00:06:08,619 ALYS YOUNG: But before I get to it, I just want to go one 145 00:06:08,620 --> 00:06:11,829 ALYS YOUNG: step back, which is just to remind 146 00:06:11,830 --> 00:06:14,979 ALYS YOUNG: people who are viewing this podcast 147 00:06:14,980 --> 00:06:18,429 ALYS YOUNG: that we're talking about d/Deaf children now 148 00:06:18,430 --> 00:06:21,699 ALYS YOUNG: at this point in the 21st century. 149 00:06:21,700 --> 00:06:23,469 ALYS YOUNG: And that's really important because d/Deaf 150 00:06:23,470 --> 00:06:25,659 ALYS YOUNG: children now and the conditions in which 151 00:06:25,660 --> 00:06:28,659 ALYS YOUNG: they're growing up and what's available 152 00:06:28,660 --> 00:06:30,729 ALYS YOUNG: for d/Deaf children and their families is very 153 00:06:30,730 --> 00:06:33,969 ALYS YOUNG: different than 20 years ago or 30 years ago. 154 00:06:33,970 --> 00:06:35,739 ALYS YOUNG: And that's quite an important point, because 155 00:06:35,740 --> 00:06:37,899 ALYS YOUNG: some experienced professionals might have an 156 00:06:37,900 --> 00:06:40,299 ALYS YOUNG: image in their mind about d/Deaf children's 157 00:06:40,300 --> 00:06:42,399 ALYS YOUNG: capabilities or the barriers that d/Deaf 158 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:44,859 ALYS YOUNG: children face that was actually formed in 159 00:06:44,860 --> 00:06:48,279 ALYS YOUNG: previous time rather than contemporary time. 160 00:06:48,280 --> 00:06:49,749 ALYS YOUNG: So something that we're all going to be 161 00:06:49,750 --> 00:06:52,389 ALYS YOUNG: talking about is deaf children now, not deaf 162 00:06:52,390 --> 00:06:55,509 ALYS YOUNG: children in the past. That links really 163 00:06:55,510 --> 00:06:57,339 ALYS YOUNG: for me to another point. 164 00:06:57,340 --> 00:06:59,709 ALYS YOUNG: D/deaf children at this point in the 21st 165 00:06:59,710 --> 00:07:03,039 ALYS YOUNG: century generally are identified 166 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:04,989 ALYS YOUNG: very early. So that means their d/Deafness is 167 00:07:04,990 --> 00:07:07,959 ALYS YOUNG: recognised very early on in life, from 168 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:09,969 ALYS YOUNG: baby onwards. 169 00:07:09,970 --> 00:07:13,119 ALYS YOUNG: And we have very sophisticated hearing 170 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:14,949 ALYS YOUNG: technologies that are available for d/Deaf 171 00:07:14,950 --> 00:07:17,109 ALYS YOUNG: children now, whether they're hearing aids, 172 00:07:17,110 --> 00:07:18,669 ALYS YOUNG: whether they're cochlear implants. 173 00:07:18,670 --> 00:07:21,849 ALYS YOUNG: We've also got a society that's very welcoming 174 00:07:21,850 --> 00:07:23,139 ALYS YOUNG: of sign language. 175 00:07:23,140 --> 00:07:25,059 ALYS YOUNG: You're seeing sign language everywhere, 176 00:07:25,060 --> 00:07:28,329 ALYS YOUNG: whether it's Strictly Come Dancing or Bake-Off 177 00:07:28,330 --> 00:07:30,279 ALYS YOUNG: or, you know, it's just in the aether in 178 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,309 ALYS YOUNG: society. So some of the stigma around 179 00:07:33,310 --> 00:07:36,339 ALYS YOUNG: that perhaps is dissipating a little bit. 180 00:07:36,340 --> 00:07:39,489 ALYS YOUNG: And we've got the new BSL Act 181 00:07:39,490 --> 00:07:42,369 ALYS YOUNG: that came in at the end of last year, which 182 00:07:42,370 --> 00:07:45,039 ALYS YOUNG: formally recognises the legal status of sign 183 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,039 ALYS YOUNG: language. What I'm saying here is 184 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,499 ALYS YOUNG: there's a sort of assumption growing in my 185 00:07:50,500 --> 00:07:53,439 ALYS YOUNG: view, that the conditions are right 186 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:55,479 ALYS YOUNG: for d/Deaf children really to be a bit like 187 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:56,889 ALYS YOUNG: hearing children. 188 00:07:56,890 --> 00:07:59,829 ALYS YOUNG: There's a sense out there that really 189 00:07:59,830 --> 00:08:01,779 ALYS YOUNG: there aren't that many difficulties here, 190 00:08:01,780 --> 00:08:04,749 ALYS YOUNG: there aren't that many barriers, but the truth 191 00:08:04,750 --> 00:08:06,940 ALYS YOUNG: is completely the opposite. 192 00:08:08,500 --> 00:08:11,469 ALYS YOUNG: To give you some examples; if you are 193 00:08:11,470 --> 00:08:13,089 ALYS YOUNG: a hearing professional or just a hearing 194 00:08:13,090 --> 00:08:16,359 ALYS YOUNG: person who's not used to being 195 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,149 ALYS YOUNG: around d/Deaf people, either professionally or 196 00:08:19,150 --> 00:08:22,149 ALYS YOUNG: socially, if you hear a child speak 197 00:08:22,150 --> 00:08:25,239 ALYS YOUNG: well — with hearing aids, for example — you 198 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:26,703 ALYS YOUNG: might think that they understand well. 199 00:08:28,150 --> 00:08:29,380 ALYS YOUNG: Actually, that's not true. 200 00:08:30,940 --> 00:08:34,029 ALYS YOUNG: If you see a child who signs, 201 00:08:34,030 --> 00:08:35,100 ALYS YOUNG: you might think that they read well. 202 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:38,619 ALYS YOUNG: That's not necessarily true. 203 00:08:38,620 --> 00:08:41,619 ALYS YOUNG: That very fundamental difference between 204 00:08:41,620 --> 00:08:44,499 ALYS YOUNG: expressive communication and receptive 205 00:08:44,500 --> 00:08:47,349 ALYS YOUNG: communication, so how well you seem to be able 206 00:08:47,350 --> 00:08:49,629 ALYS YOUNG: to communicate and how well you can 207 00:08:49,630 --> 00:08:52,659 ALYS YOUNG: understand; these are very often not 208 00:08:52,660 --> 00:08:56,019 ALYS YOUNG: equivalent for children and professionals 209 00:08:56,020 --> 00:08:59,289 ALYS YOUNG: very frequently misinterpret that. 210 00:08:59,290 --> 00:09:01,749 ALYS YOUNG: And so for me, the first barrier I'd like to 211 00:09:01,750 --> 00:09:04,839 ALYS YOUNG: suggest around reporting is 212 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,809 ALYS YOUNG: the assumptions that adults make 213 00:09:07,810 --> 00:09:10,689 ALYS YOUNG: about d/Deaf children's capabilities around 214 00:09:10,690 --> 00:09:12,549 ALYS YOUNG: communication. 215 00:09:12,550 --> 00:09:15,609 ALYS YOUNG: And very often in a situation where a child 216 00:09:15,610 --> 00:09:18,249 ALYS YOUNG: might be wishing to report something terrible 217 00:09:18,250 --> 00:09:21,579 ALYS YOUNG: that's been happening to them, their preferred 218 00:09:21,580 --> 00:09:24,489 ALYS YOUNG: language is perhaps not recognised, or 219 00:09:24,490 --> 00:09:27,759 ALYS YOUNG: their preferred way to interact is perhaps 220 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,369 ALYS YOUNG: not recognised because, after all, it's easier 221 00:09:30,370 --> 00:09:32,199 ALYS YOUNG: just to think, "oh, a deaf child can speak, 222 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:33,846 ALYS YOUNG: it's fine, we'll just use spoken language." So 223 00:09:35,020 --> 00:09:38,289 ALYS YOUNG: my first point is: what is the child's 224 00:09:38,290 --> 00:09:41,199 ALYS YOUNG: preference and how do we understand that 225 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:43,329 ALYS YOUNG: and how do we meet that. 226 00:09:43,330 --> 00:09:45,759 ALYS YOUNG: And if a child doesn't see that happening for 227 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:49,539 ALYS YOUNG: them then that's a major barrier to reporting. 228 00:09:49,540 --> 00:09:51,489 ALYS YOUNG: But I wonder whether, Joanne, from your 229 00:09:51,490 --> 00:09:53,859 ALYS YOUNG: practice, that's something that you would 230 00:09:53,860 --> 00:09:56,589 ALYS YOUNG: agree with? Or have you seen a different point 231 00:09:56,590 --> 00:09:57,219 ALYS YOUNG: of view? 232 00:09:57,220 --> 00:09:58,659 JO HORNSBY: Yeah. No, completely. 233 00:09:58,660 --> 00:10:02,109 JO HORNSBY: I mean, I think the key is absolutely to 234 00:10:02,110 --> 00:10:05,379 JO HORNSBY: start with where that child is at and 235 00:10:05,380 --> 00:10:08,409 JO HORNSBY: that child-centred approach 236 00:10:08,410 --> 00:10:10,659 JO HORNSBY: and understanding the preferences of that 237 00:10:10,660 --> 00:10:13,110 JO HORNSBY: child and really understanding how 238 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:15,939 JO HORNSBY: they are communicating and what their 239 00:10:15,940 --> 00:10:19,869 JO HORNSBY: experiences are on a day-to-day basis. 240 00:10:19,870 --> 00:10:22,599 JO HORNSBY: And that's where it's so important that there 241 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,539 JO HORNSBY: are professionals involved and around that 242 00:10:25,540 --> 00:10:27,215 JO HORNSBY: child at that time 243 00:10:28,570 --> 00:10:31,689 JO HORNSBY: to have that awareness, so that 244 00:10:31,690 --> 00:10:34,659 JO HORNSBY: they can really understand what's going on for 245 00:10:34,660 --> 00:10:36,002 JO HORNSBY: that child and to be able to communicate 246 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:41,229 JO HORNSBY: with that child and reach 247 00:10:41,230 --> 00:10:43,779 JO HORNSBY: those issues that the child may be 248 00:10:43,780 --> 00:10:45,159 JO HORNSBY: experiencing. 249 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,549 JO HORNSBY: And that's where perhaps we've seen 250 00:10:48,550 --> 00:10:50,177 JO HORNSBY: a bit of a change 251 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:53,980 JO HORNSBY: over the past few years in that 252 00:10:55,150 --> 00:10:57,639 JO HORNSBY: those specialist teams aren't there in the 253 00:10:57,640 --> 00:10:58,929 JO HORNSBY: same way that they were. 254 00:10:58,930 --> 00:11:00,969 JO HORNSBY: And there might be specialist workers, but it 255 00:11:00,970 --> 00:11:04,089 JO HORNSBY: might be more difficult for that child 256 00:11:04,090 --> 00:11:06,849 JO HORNSBY: to gain access to those. 257 00:11:06,850 --> 00:11:07,850 JO HORNSBY: So, yes, it's very 258 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:13,389 JO HORNSBY: tricky. And of course, you know, it's also 259 00:11:13,390 --> 00:11:14,574 JO HORNSBY: very important to be... 260 00:11:16,090 --> 00:11:19,569 JO HORNSBY: I think when we often become involved, 261 00:11:19,570 --> 00:11:22,269 JO HORNSBY: it's where families are really struggling. 262 00:11:22,270 --> 00:11:26,169 JO HORNSBY: So it's also being able to 263 00:11:26,170 --> 00:11:29,229 JO HORNSBY: understand where the parents are at and 264 00:11:29,230 --> 00:11:32,017 JO HORNSBY: what experiences that parents have 265 00:11:33,250 --> 00:11:36,189 JO HORNSBY: had. Obviously, as we know, most 266 00:11:36,190 --> 00:11:40,149 JO HORNSBY: d/Deaf children are born to hearing parents. 267 00:11:40,150 --> 00:11:43,059 JO HORNSBY: So we're, often working with 268 00:11:43,060 --> 00:11:45,938 JO HORNSBY: people who may have had very limited, 269 00:11:48,670 --> 00:11:51,609 JO HORNSBY: knowledge or experience of being 270 00:11:51,610 --> 00:11:54,699 JO HORNSBY: around d/Deaf people in their 271 00:11:54,700 --> 00:11:57,729 JO HORNSBY: lives, so this can be a real shock 272 00:11:57,730 --> 00:11:59,319 JO HORNSBY: to them. 273 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,439 JO HORNSBY: And again, it's really 274 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,649 JO HORNSBY: important for those families to have access to 275 00:12:05,650 --> 00:12:08,349 JO HORNSBY: workers who have got that awareness and 276 00:12:08,350 --> 00:12:10,479 JO HORNSBY: understanding about what that family might be 277 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:11,885 JO HORNSBY: going through at that time. 278 00:12:13,420 --> 00:12:15,399 SHIRLEY WILSON: That's great. Tim, have you got some 279 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:17,139 SHIRLEY WILSON: thoughts on this? 280 00:12:17,140 --> 00:12:18,140 TIM RICHARDSON: Yes, thanks Shirley. 281 00:12:19,060 --> 00:12:20,619 TIM RICHARDSON: I think at the risk of labouring the 282 00:12:20,620 --> 00:12:24,009 TIM RICHARDSON: point, quite often d/Deaf children 283 00:12:24,010 --> 00:12:27,009 TIM RICHARDSON: and young people will communicate in the 284 00:12:27,010 --> 00:12:30,339 TIM RICHARDSON: way that the people around them can best 285 00:12:30,340 --> 00:12:33,339 TIM RICHARDSON: receive. So they will modify their 286 00:12:33,340 --> 00:12:35,949 TIM RICHARDSON: communication to meet the needs of those 287 00:12:35,950 --> 00:12:38,619 TIM RICHARDSON: around them. I think going back to Alys' 288 00:12:38,620 --> 00:12:41,469 TIM RICHARDSON: point, it's really key that before we even 289 00:12:41,470 --> 00:12:43,629 TIM RICHARDSON: start out, don't make those assumptions. 290 00:12:43,630 --> 00:12:46,839 TIM RICHARDSON: Don't be seduced by how well a 291 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:48,879 TIM RICHARDSON: young person might be communicating to 292 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:51,459 TIM RICHARDSON: think that that is their preferred way of 293 00:12:51,460 --> 00:12:52,989 TIM RICHARDSON: communicating. 294 00:12:52,990 --> 00:12:56,229 TIM RICHARDSON: It takes a little bit of effort, 295 00:12:56,230 --> 00:12:57,352 TIM RICHARDSON: and what we would call something like 296 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,359 TIM RICHARDSON: scaffolding, not to take that face value 297 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:03,519 TIM RICHARDSON: thing, but to go back a step. 298 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:05,349 TIM RICHARDSON: For example, when you're talking about 299 00:13:05,350 --> 00:13:08,439 TIM RICHARDSON: emotions, you might want to first talk 300 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:10,779 TIM RICHARDSON: about what an emotion is and have a real 301 00:13:10,780 --> 00:13:13,539 TIM RICHARDSON: understanding that the young person 302 00:13:13,540 --> 00:13:15,909 TIM RICHARDSON: understands what you're talking about 303 00:13:15,910 --> 00:13:18,879 TIM RICHARDSON: before you then launch into what emotions 304 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:21,139 TIM RICHARDSON: a young person might be feeling. 305 00:13:21,140 --> 00:13:24,039 TIM RICHARDSON: Key, I think, is having 306 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:25,839 TIM RICHARDSON: people who understand the d/Deaf 307 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:27,616 TIM RICHARDSON: experience and whether that be 308 00:13:29,140 --> 00:13:32,619 TIM RICHARDSON: a deaf person is great, 309 00:13:32,620 --> 00:13:35,529 TIM RICHARDSON: or a sign language interpreter; people 310 00:13:35,530 --> 00:13:38,469 TIM RICHARDSON: who are going to be keyed in 311 00:13:38,470 --> 00:13:41,409 TIM RICHARDSON: or more linked in with the language 312 00:13:41,410 --> 00:13:43,869 TIM RICHARDSON: and the communication and to be able to 313 00:13:43,870 --> 00:13:46,299 TIM RICHARDSON: pick up on those subtleties that, if 314 00:13:46,300 --> 00:13:48,429 TIM RICHARDSON: you're not used to working with d/Deaf 315 00:13:48,430 --> 00:13:50,319 TIM RICHARDSON: children and young people, you could very 316 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:51,669 TIM RICHARDSON: well miss out on. 317 00:13:51,670 --> 00:13:54,489 ALYS YOUNG: Could I possibly just add to what you're 318 00:13:54,490 --> 00:13:56,229 ALYS YOUNG: saying about emotion, Tim? 319 00:13:56,230 --> 00:13:59,409 ALYS YOUNG: Because I think it's absolutely crucial here. 320 00:13:59,410 --> 00:14:02,739 ALYS YOUNG: I think that, linked again to barriers 321 00:14:02,740 --> 00:14:05,349 ALYS YOUNG: to reporting or barriers to abuse being 322 00:14:05,350 --> 00:14:07,419 ALYS YOUNG: recognised by other people — because obviously 323 00:14:07,420 --> 00:14:10,179 ALYS YOUNG: it's both things. It's a child reporting or in 324 00:14:10,180 --> 00:14:13,389 ALYS YOUNG: some cases it might be an adult recognising 325 00:14:13,390 --> 00:14:16,299 ALYS YOUNG: there's something wrong. So my point refers to 326 00:14:16,300 --> 00:14:18,487 ALYS YOUNG: both. One of the things about d/Deafness, 327 00:14:18,488 --> 00:14:21,009 ALYS YOUNG: whether you're a spoken language user or a 328 00:14:21,010 --> 00:14:23,589 ALYS YOUNG: sign language user, is that there is an 329 00:14:23,590 --> 00:14:26,499 ALYS YOUNG: interruption in some way to your ability to 330 00:14:26,500 --> 00:14:29,559 ALYS YOUNG: pick up language, ideas, 331 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:31,179 ALYS YOUNG: general conversation, 332 00:14:32,590 --> 00:14:35,739 ALYS YOUNG: kind of world knowledge, and d/Deaf children 333 00:14:35,740 --> 00:14:39,159 ALYS YOUNG: in different ways experience 334 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:40,602 ALYS YOUNG: a lack in that. Some are superb, absolutely; 335 00:14:42,370 --> 00:14:45,849 ALYS YOUNG: almost no filter, no difference. 336 00:14:45,850 --> 00:14:49,209 ALYS YOUNG: But for many children there are significant 337 00:14:49,210 --> 00:14:52,389 ALYS YOUNG: difficulties in learning 338 00:14:52,390 --> 00:14:54,519 ALYS YOUNG: about nuances. 339 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,939 ALYS YOUNG: So, years ago, I remember a very well known, 340 00:14:57,940 --> 00:15:00,309 ALYS YOUNG: professional working in this area used to talk 341 00:15:00,310 --> 00:15:03,549 ALYS YOUNG: about emotionally toned language 342 00:15:03,550 --> 00:15:06,909 ALYS YOUNG: so that if you are actually in conversations 343 00:15:06,910 --> 00:15:09,729 ALYS YOUNG: all the time, you can pick up quite easily the 344 00:15:09,730 --> 00:15:12,669 ALYS YOUNG: difference between being furious, being mildly 345 00:15:12,670 --> 00:15:15,069 ALYS YOUNG: angry, being a little annoyed. 346 00:15:15,070 --> 00:15:18,129 ALYS YOUNG: You pick up those differences in language, and 347 00:15:18,130 --> 00:15:21,669 ALYS YOUNG: you develop inside the emotional toning 348 00:15:21,670 --> 00:15:24,859 ALYS YOUNG: of your own understanding of the world. 349 00:15:24,860 --> 00:15:26,899 ALYS YOUNG: I think for d/Deaf children, that's really 350 00:15:26,900 --> 00:15:30,019 ALYS YOUNG: difficult to do if there are blocks in 351 00:15:30,020 --> 00:15:32,989 ALYS YOUNG: access just to casual communication, 352 00:15:32,990 --> 00:15:34,849 ALYS YOUNG: never mind anything else. 353 00:15:34,850 --> 00:15:37,459 ALYS YOUNG: So then taking your point Tim, when you come 354 00:15:37,460 --> 00:15:40,429 ALYS YOUNG: to a situation where a child might 355 00:15:40,430 --> 00:15:43,429 ALYS YOUNG: have experienced abuse and you're asking 356 00:15:43,430 --> 00:15:46,459 ALYS YOUNG: a question that's about emotion and about 357 00:15:46,460 --> 00:15:48,649 ALYS YOUNG: understanding the world emotionally and 358 00:15:48,650 --> 00:15:51,679 ALYS YOUNG: psychologically, that child might not 359 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:55,129 ALYS YOUNG: have the expected range of understanding 360 00:15:55,130 --> 00:15:57,049 ALYS YOUNG: of a child of that age. 361 00:15:57,050 --> 00:15:59,449 ALYS YOUNG: Or they might do. Again, we can't make 362 00:15:59,450 --> 00:16:01,669 ALYS YOUNG: assumptions generally; every child is 363 00:16:01,670 --> 00:16:04,609 ALYS YOUNG: different. But I think it is a really key 364 00:16:04,610 --> 00:16:06,769 ALYS YOUNG: point that professionals who aren't 365 00:16:06,770 --> 00:16:08,797 ALYS YOUNG: specialists, like Joanne was talking about, 366 00:16:10,370 --> 00:16:14,599 ALYS YOUNG: are unlikely to realise is significant. 367 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,089 TIM RICHARDSON: I think that's absolutely spots on Alys, 368 00:16:17,090 --> 00:16:18,952 TIM RICHARDSON: and I think it goes back to that asking 369 00:16:19,970 --> 00:16:22,519 TIM RICHARDSON: the question behind that might feel a 370 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:23,779 TIM RICHARDSON: little bit obvious. 371 00:16:23,780 --> 00:16:25,429 TIM RICHARDSON: But when you ask... 372 00:16:25,430 --> 00:16:28,069 TIM RICHARDSON: Quite often we speak with young people... 373 00:16:28,070 --> 00:16:31,009 TIM RICHARDSON: And this to contextualise it, the young 374 00:16:31,010 --> 00:16:34,189 TIM RICHARDSON: people we work with have significant 375 00:16:34,190 --> 00:16:36,199 TIM RICHARDSON: mental health issues. So we're talking 376 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,599 TIM RICHARDSON: about a particular population within a 377 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,809 TIM RICHARDSON: population. But very often it's not 378 00:16:41,810 --> 00:16:44,629 TIM RICHARDSON: infrequent where the three emotions they 379 00:16:44,630 --> 00:16:46,729 TIM RICHARDSON: can name are happy, angry and sad. 380 00:16:46,730 --> 00:16:48,709 TIM RICHARDSON: So there's no nuance, going back to the 381 00:16:48,710 --> 00:16:49,710 TIM RICHARDSON: toning. 382 00:16:50,930 --> 00:16:53,209 TIM RICHARDSON: That also gets played out in behaviour. 383 00:16:53,210 --> 00:16:55,879 TIM RICHARDSON: So you can go from a young person sitting 384 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:58,249 TIM RICHARDSON: there in the classroom to a young person 385 00:16:58,250 --> 00:17:00,640 TIM RICHARDSON: acting out very aggressively and people 386 00:17:02,570 --> 00:17:04,338 TIM RICHARDSON: around them being genuinely surprised 387 00:17:04,339 --> 00:17:05,899 TIM RICHARDSON: about where that came from. 388 00:17:05,900 --> 00:17:08,358 TIM RICHARDSON: But it almost mirrors their understanding 389 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:10,759 TIM RICHARDSON: of, because there was no language, there 390 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,039 TIM RICHARDSON: was no way to express "I'm starting to 391 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:14,899 TIM RICHARDSON: feel frustrated now." 392 00:17:14,900 --> 00:17:17,149 SHIRLEY WILSON: Can I just add to this a slightly 393 00:17:17,150 --> 00:17:18,858 SHIRLEY WILSON: different perspective, and then I'll move 394 00:17:18,859 --> 00:17:20,699 SHIRLEY WILSON: on to the next question. 395 00:17:20,700 --> 00:17:22,939 SHIRLEY WILSON: I've recently been doing some bespoke 396 00:17:22,940 --> 00:17:25,608 SHIRLEY WILSON: training this year, particulary with 397 00:17:25,609 --> 00:17:26,827 SHIRLEY WILSON: actually quite a few d/Deaf organisations. 398 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:30,799 SHIRLEY WILSON: It's been really positive that they've 399 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:32,299 SHIRLEY WILSON: been coming forward. 400 00:17:32,300 --> 00:17:35,269 SHIRLEY WILSON: One of the things for me that I bring up 401 00:17:35,270 --> 00:17:37,840 SHIRLEY WILSON: is the sign for abuse is 402 00:17:38,870 --> 00:17:39,870 SHIRLEY WILSON: one: it's abuse. 403 00:17:41,510 --> 00:17:43,909 SHIRLEY WILSON: You all know this, but I think the general 404 00:17:43,910 --> 00:17:45,859 SHIRLEY WILSON: population just look at abuse. 405 00:17:45,860 --> 00:17:47,809 SHIRLEY WILSON: What I've said to these d/Deaf adults, 406 00:17:47,810 --> 00:17:50,029 SHIRLEY WILSON: because they work with d/Deaf young people 407 00:17:50,030 --> 00:17:53,119 SHIRLEY WILSON: and children and their families, is: how 408 00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:56,708 SHIRLEY WILSON: do you expect a child to be able to make a 409 00:17:56,709 --> 00:17:58,801 SHIRLEY WILSON: disclosure if they think this [the BSL 410 00:17:58,802 --> 00:18:01,729 SHIRLEY WILSON: sign for abuse] just means 'beating 411 00:18:01,730 --> 00:18:04,669 SHIRLEY WILSON: up'. Where in actualy fact we need to go 412 00:18:04,670 --> 00:18:06,739 SHIRLEY WILSON: into much greater detail about sexual 413 00:18:06,740 --> 00:18:08,384 SHIRLEY WILSON: abuse, emotional abuse, neglect. 414 00:18:08,385 --> 00:18:09,385 SHIRLEY WILSON: I'm 415 00:18:11,700 --> 00:18:14,699 SHIRLEY WILSON: trying to get across to the d/Deaf 416 00:18:14,700 --> 00:18:17,129 SHIRLEY WILSON: adult community, because I feel that they 417 00:18:17,130 --> 00:18:20,099 SHIRLEY WILSON: also have a role to play in supporting the 418 00:18:20,100 --> 00:18:22,589 SHIRLEY WILSON: work that happens out there. 419 00:18:22,590 --> 00:18:25,439 SHIRLEY WILSON: Some of these organisations are absolutely 420 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,889 SHIRLEY WILSON: fantastic because they provide services 421 00:18:28,890 --> 00:18:30,959 SHIRLEY WILSON: that the local authorities are unable to 422 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:32,969 SHIRLEY WILSON: provide now, so whether have the support 423 00:18:32,970 --> 00:18:35,249 SHIRLEY WILSON: that they can help their groups. 424 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:39,329 SHIRLEY WILSON: And I feel that by them having a better 425 00:18:39,330 --> 00:18:41,999 SHIRLEY WILSON: understanding, and when we have those 426 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,759 SHIRLEY WILSON: discussions about the word abuse, they 427 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:46,589 SHIRLEY WILSON: then start to unravel that. 428 00:18:46,590 --> 00:18:49,709 SHIRLEY WILSON: I hope in time that that will then 429 00:18:49,710 --> 00:18:52,319 SHIRLEY WILSON: filter down to the younger d/Deaf 430 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:53,589 SHIRLEY WILSON: population. 431 00:18:53,590 --> 00:18:55,859 SHIRLEY WILSON: So I just wanted to add to that because I 432 00:18:55,860 --> 00:18:57,779 SHIRLEY WILSON: think it really is quite critical. 433 00:18:57,780 --> 00:19:00,449 ALYS YOUNG: We've talked a lot about the difficulties and 434 00:19:00,450 --> 00:19:02,309 ALYS YOUNG: the problems. I'd like to throw in something 435 00:19:02,310 --> 00:19:05,009 ALYS YOUNG: positive here, because I don't want somebody 436 00:19:05,010 --> 00:19:06,899 ALYS YOUNG: looking at this podcast thinking every d/Deaf 437 00:19:06,900 --> 00:19:08,879 ALYS YOUNG: child has a problem, you know, and every 438 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,279 ALYS YOUNG: d/Deaf child is likely to be abused. 439 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,099 ALYS YOUNG: I think one of the things that d/Deaf young 440 00:19:14,100 --> 00:19:17,189 ALYS YOUNG: people do as peers — so when d/Deaf young 441 00:19:17,190 --> 00:19:18,861 ALYS YOUNG: people are with other d/Deaf young people — is 442 00:19:20,010 --> 00:19:22,949 ALYS YOUNG: that they can spot really quickly 443 00:19:22,950 --> 00:19:25,589 ALYS YOUNG: whether there's something not quite right with 444 00:19:25,590 --> 00:19:28,859 ALYS YOUNG: their friend or within their peer group. 445 00:19:28,860 --> 00:19:32,189 ALYS YOUNG: And some of that acuity is a visual 446 00:19:32,190 --> 00:19:34,799 ALYS YOUNG: acuity that hearing people don't have in the 447 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,559 ALYS YOUNG: same way. That visual recognition of 448 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:41,339 ALYS YOUNG: differences in facial expression, body tone, 449 00:19:41,340 --> 00:19:44,639 ALYS YOUNG: nonverbal tone, that kind of thing. 450 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,449 ALYS YOUNG: The problem is that young d/Deaf people, as 451 00:19:48,450 --> 00:19:51,419 ALYS YOUNG: peers, often don't know the route 452 00:19:51,420 --> 00:19:53,789 ALYS YOUNG: to take their concerns. 453 00:19:53,790 --> 00:19:56,369 ALYS YOUNG: So who is likely to believe them? 454 00:19:56,370 --> 00:19:59,099 ALYS YOUNG: If they want to support their friend to say 455 00:19:59,100 --> 00:20:02,609 ALYS YOUNG: something, who would that friend talk to? 456 00:20:02,610 --> 00:20:05,579 ALYS YOUNG: Who is the trusted adult and the trusted 457 00:20:05,580 --> 00:20:08,159 ALYS YOUNG: adult who can communicate? 458 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:10,079 ALYS YOUNG: Because we know from all the resilience 459 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:12,749 ALYS YOUNG: literature, for example, it just takes one 460 00:20:12,750 --> 00:20:15,299 ALYS YOUNG: trusted adult that you feel comfortable 461 00:20:15,300 --> 00:20:17,969 ALYS YOUNG: communicating with, and the young person's 462 00:20:17,970 --> 00:20:20,489 ALYS YOUNG: world can just change. 463 00:20:20,490 --> 00:20:22,949 ALYS YOUNG: But for d/Deaf young people, the number of 464 00:20:22,950 --> 00:20:25,859 ALYS YOUNG: potentially trusted adults is a lot less, 465 00:20:25,860 --> 00:20:27,869 ALYS YOUNG: particularly if, for example, abuse is 466 00:20:27,870 --> 00:20:29,519 ALYS YOUNG: happening in a family. 467 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,309 ALYS YOUNG: And a family member that you might actually 468 00:20:32,310 --> 00:20:34,229 ALYS YOUNG: feel comfortable with and want to talk to, you 469 00:20:34,230 --> 00:20:37,229 ALYS YOUNG: just think you can't do that because they are 470 00:20:37,230 --> 00:20:40,019 ALYS YOUNG: too closely connected with somebody who might 471 00:20:40,020 --> 00:20:42,779 ALYS YOUNG: be creating an abusive situation. 472 00:20:42,780 --> 00:20:44,939 SHIRLEY WILSON: Can I now move on to the next question, if 473 00:20:44,940 --> 00:20:46,349 SHIRLEY WILSON: that's all right? Because I'm just conscious 474 00:20:46,350 --> 00:20:48,059 SHIRLEY WILSON: we've got a lot we want to talk about 475 00:20:48,060 --> 00:20:49,500 SHIRLEY WILSON: here. My next question is: 476 00:20:51,510 --> 00:20:54,059 SHIRLEY WILSON: what barriers do you think might prevent 477 00:20:54,060 --> 00:20:56,309 SHIRLEY WILSON: professionals from identifying 478 00:20:56,310 --> 00:20:58,859 SHIRLEY WILSON: safeguarding concerns when working with 479 00:20:58,860 --> 00:21:00,119 SHIRLEY WILSON: d/Deaf children and young people. Because 480 00:21:00,120 --> 00:21:01,919 SHIRLEY WILSON: I think, obviously, you have a lot of 481 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:03,180 SHIRLEY WILSON: experience in that area. 482 00:21:04,410 --> 00:21:06,269 TIM RICHARDSON: Alys already touched on that one of the 483 00:21:06,270 --> 00:21:08,759 TIM RICHARDSON: barriers is having a route for a young 484 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,149 TIM RICHARDSON: person to express their concerns. 485 00:21:12,150 --> 00:21:14,123 TIM RICHARDSON: And I suppose one of the things there is 486 00:21:15,510 --> 00:21:17,969 TIM RICHARDSON: how do we facilitate communication 487 00:21:17,970 --> 00:21:21,029 TIM RICHARDSON: generally and how do we create 488 00:21:21,030 --> 00:21:23,399 TIM RICHARDSON: that space for a trusted person or a 489 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:25,679 TIM RICHARDSON: trusted dialogue, if you like? 490 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:27,798 TIM RICHARDSON: I think one of the barriers, historically 491 00:21:27,799 --> 00:21:30,719 TIM RICHARDSON: and maybe still, is that 492 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,449 TIM RICHARDSON: there can be low expectations for d/Deaf 493 00:21:33,450 --> 00:21:35,789 TIM RICHARDSON: children and young people that can be 494 00:21:35,790 --> 00:21:38,669 TIM RICHARDSON: sometimes within families, and it can also 495 00:21:38,670 --> 00:21:40,139 TIM RICHARDSON: be within professional groups. 496 00:21:40,140 --> 00:21:43,199 TIM RICHARDSON: So what we would expect, for example, 497 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,229 TIM RICHARDSON: in terms of what language a young 498 00:21:46,230 --> 00:21:48,719 TIM RICHARDSON: person or a child might have; that might 499 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,809 TIM RICHARDSON: be modified. And we've sadly seen 500 00:21:51,810 --> 00:21:54,779 TIM RICHARDSON: actual cases where that is and that's led 501 00:21:54,780 --> 00:21:57,179 TIM RICHARDSON: to tragic outcomes, where we've not 502 00:21:57,180 --> 00:21:59,969 TIM RICHARDSON: accepted that it's not okay for a young 503 00:21:59,970 --> 00:22:02,399 TIM RICHARDSON: person, d/Deaf or hearing to not have a 504 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,919 TIM RICHARDSON: language at the age of three. 505 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,339 TIM RICHARDSON: So, I think a lot of this — I mean, 506 00:22:08,340 --> 00:22:10,055 TIM RICHARDSON: sometimes I feel a bit like a stuck record 507 00:22:10,056 --> 00:22:12,449 TIM RICHARDSON: — but a lot of it comes back to language 508 00:22:12,450 --> 00:22:14,879 TIM RICHARDSON: and communication and making sure we get 509 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,129 TIM RICHARDSON: that bedrock right. 510 00:22:17,130 --> 00:22:19,229 TIM RICHARDSON: The effort should be on the part of us as 511 00:22:19,230 --> 00:22:21,059 TIM RICHARDSON: professionals and the people around the 512 00:22:21,060 --> 00:22:24,299 TIM RICHARDSON: child to create as many opportunities 513 00:22:24,300 --> 00:22:25,949 TIM RICHARDSON: for that young person to express 514 00:22:25,950 --> 00:22:28,229 TIM RICHARDSON: themselves in the way that is their 515 00:22:28,230 --> 00:22:29,489 TIM RICHARDSON: preferred way. 516 00:22:29,490 --> 00:22:32,099 JO HORNSBY: I was just thinking about all of the 517 00:22:32,100 --> 00:22:34,439 JO HORNSBY: complications, just thinking about the 518 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,859 JO HORNSBY: process, you know, that a child 519 00:22:37,860 --> 00:22:40,589 JO HORNSBY: and a family have had to go through, and 520 00:22:40,590 --> 00:22:43,019 JO HORNSBY: there's so many complications in that process, 521 00:22:43,020 --> 00:22:44,020 JO HORNSBY: isn't there. 522 00:22:44,490 --> 00:22:47,078 JO HORNSBY: From the outset we've got children who have 523 00:22:48,810 --> 00:22:51,569 JO HORNSBY: got those language and communication barriers, 524 00:22:51,570 --> 00:22:54,659 JO HORNSBY: so they may not have the language to be able 525 00:22:54,660 --> 00:22:57,869 JO HORNSBY: to name and tell 526 00:22:57,870 --> 00:23:00,539 JO HORNSBY: us what is going on for them in the first 527 00:23:00,540 --> 00:23:03,509 JO HORNSBY: place. Then, do they have a trusted 528 00:23:03,510 --> 00:23:07,199 JO HORNSBY: person to go to to say that? 529 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,199 JO HORNSBY: And is that trusted person somehow 530 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,879 JO HORNSBY: incorporated in what's going on for them? 531 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,459 JO HORNSBY: That's a complication in itself. 532 00:23:15,460 --> 00:23:16,743 JO HORNSBY: And then you've got to work 533 00:23:18,940 --> 00:23:21,789 JO HORNSBY: the way through a potentially difficult 534 00:23:21,790 --> 00:23:25,149 JO HORNSBY: system, where professionals are perhaps 535 00:23:25,150 --> 00:23:26,825 JO HORNSBY: not having the awareness 536 00:23:28,360 --> 00:23:31,389 JO HORNSBY: to then respond as that child needs them to 537 00:23:31,390 --> 00:23:34,299 JO HORNSBY: respond. So there are so many complications, 538 00:23:34,300 --> 00:23:36,609 JO HORNSBY: aren't there, along that route. 539 00:23:36,610 --> 00:23:39,609 JO HORNSBY: And then, of course, if a child has made 540 00:23:39,610 --> 00:23:42,369 JO HORNSBY: a disclosure, in order to then be able to 541 00:23:42,370 --> 00:23:45,309 JO HORNSBY: progress with that situation and to 542 00:23:45,310 --> 00:23:47,109 JO HORNSBY: take some action, and for there to be some 543 00:23:47,110 --> 00:23:49,569 JO HORNSBY: outcome from it, you need the detail. 544 00:23:49,570 --> 00:23:51,789 JO HORNSBY: You need the evidence. You need the child to 545 00:23:51,790 --> 00:23:54,909 JO HORNSBY: be able to explain to you what has happened. 546 00:23:54,910 --> 00:23:57,849 JO HORNSBY: And, of course, that's a highly complicated 547 00:23:57,850 --> 00:24:01,059 JO HORNSBY: process and requires a deep 548 00:24:01,060 --> 00:24:03,339 JO HORNSBY: understanding, as we've said, about how that 549 00:24:03,340 --> 00:24:06,399 JO HORNSBY: child communicates. What's their preferred way 550 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:07,746 JO HORNSBY: of expressing that, and 551 00:24:09,370 --> 00:24:11,439 JO HORNSBY: then having the awareness and ability to be 552 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,229 JO HORNSBY: able to respond to that. The professionals in 553 00:24:14,230 --> 00:24:16,749 JO HORNSBY: that process need to have good awareness and 554 00:24:16,750 --> 00:24:19,647 JO HORNSBY: good communication skills, and then access to 555 00:24:19,648 --> 00:24:23,049 JO HORNSBY: interpreting services, interpreters 556 00:24:23,050 --> 00:24:26,529 JO HORNSBY: who are appropriately trained, and can 557 00:24:26,530 --> 00:24:28,589 JO HORNSBY: respond in the appropriate ways. 558 00:24:28,590 --> 00:24:31,779 JO HORNSBY: So there's so many points along 559 00:24:31,780 --> 00:24:34,809 JO HORNSBY: that process where things can 560 00:24:34,810 --> 00:24:37,749 JO HORNSBY: fall down and where we don't manage 561 00:24:37,750 --> 00:24:39,909 JO HORNSBY: to respond in the way that we should do for 562 00:24:39,910 --> 00:24:42,849 JO HORNSBY: that child to get to the place where we need 563 00:24:42,850 --> 00:24:44,049 JO HORNSBY: to be. 564 00:24:44,050 --> 00:24:45,309 SHIRLEY WILSON: Thank you. I don't want to stop the 565 00:24:45,310 --> 00:24:46,749 SHIRLEY WILSON: conversation, because I think the next 566 00:24:46,750 --> 00:24:49,179 SHIRLEY WILSON: question actually is going to be 567 00:24:49,180 --> 00:24:51,249 SHIRLEY WILSON: incorporating a lot of what you've already 568 00:24:51,250 --> 00:24:53,709 SHIRLEY WILSON: started. I want to expand on that a bit 569 00:24:53,710 --> 00:24:55,359 SHIRLEY WILSON: more, because I think the systematic 570 00:24:55,360 --> 00:24:56,619 SHIRLEY WILSON: process of child protection procedures is 571 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,259 SHIRLEY WILSON: a big barrier. For me, 572 00:25:02,260 --> 00:25:04,359 SHIRLEY WILSON: the next question I think — Tim, if I can 573 00:25:04,360 --> 00:25:07,329 SHIRLEY WILSON: ask you to start this off — what do 574 00:25:07,330 --> 00:25:09,459 SHIRLEY WILSON: you think professionals could do to 575 00:25:09,460 --> 00:25:12,219 SHIRLEY WILSON: develop effective multi-agency 576 00:25:12,220 --> 00:25:15,219 SHIRLEY WILSON: partnership, that not only considers 577 00:25:15,220 --> 00:25:17,229 SHIRLEY WILSON: the needs, but for me it's about 578 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,309 SHIRLEY WILSON: how does it strengthen the response of 579 00:25:21,310 --> 00:25:23,740 SHIRLEY WILSON: meaningful services? Crux of the matter, 580 00:25:23,741 --> 00:25:26,289 SHIRLEY WILSON: it's about meaningful services to children 581 00:25:26,290 --> 00:25:27,579 SHIRLEY WILSON: and their families. 582 00:25:27,580 --> 00:25:29,170 TIM RICHARDSON: Yeah. I think it it goes... 583 00:25:30,460 --> 00:25:31,899 TIM RICHARDSON: it links in with the work we've done 584 00:25:31,900 --> 00:25:33,459 TIM RICHARDSON: within the group. 585 00:25:34,510 --> 00:25:37,149 TIM RICHARDSON: It's thinking about doing things before. 586 00:25:37,150 --> 00:25:40,509 TIM RICHARDSON: So establishing foundations, 587 00:25:40,510 --> 00:25:44,079 TIM RICHARDSON: establishing networks locally, introducing 588 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,929 TIM RICHARDSON: the issues for d/Deaf children and young 589 00:25:46,930 --> 00:25:50,259 TIM RICHARDSON: people to groups like in schools 590 00:25:50,260 --> 00:25:52,119 TIM RICHARDSON: and social care. 591 00:25:52,120 --> 00:25:54,579 TIM RICHARDSON: What you'll find is when you do that, 592 00:25:54,580 --> 00:25:57,099 TIM RICHARDSON: there's always a cohort of people who are 593 00:25:57,100 --> 00:25:59,349 TIM RICHARDSON: really interested, who really want to take 594 00:25:59,350 --> 00:26:00,350 TIM RICHARDSON: up... 595 00:26:01,180 --> 00:26:02,889 TIM RICHARDSON: pick up the panel with us, you know, sort 596 00:26:02,890 --> 00:26:06,069 TIM RICHARDSON: of thing. Even if they haven't had BSL 597 00:26:06,070 --> 00:26:08,529 TIM RICHARDSON: or they haven't got any prior knowledge of 598 00:26:08,530 --> 00:26:10,689 TIM RICHARDSON: working with d/Deaf people, there are 599 00:26:10,690 --> 00:26:12,549 TIM RICHARDSON: people who are genuinely captivated by it, 600 00:26:12,550 --> 00:26:15,579 TIM RICHARDSON: who will be natural allies in terms 601 00:26:15,580 --> 00:26:17,949 TIM RICHARDSON: of people to go to, whether that be in a 602 00:26:17,950 --> 00:26:20,739 TIM RICHARDSON: social services department, or in health 603 00:26:20,740 --> 00:26:23,829 TIM RICHARDSON: or in education. In general it is about, I 604 00:26:23,830 --> 00:26:26,019 TIM RICHARDSON: think, there's something about their needs 605 00:26:26,020 --> 00:26:29,289 TIM RICHARDSON: to be work beforehand to set up, to 606 00:26:29,290 --> 00:26:31,419 TIM RICHARDSON: find where are our natural allies. 607 00:26:31,420 --> 00:26:33,429 TIM RICHARDSON: Getting out there, doing a bit of 608 00:26:33,430 --> 00:26:35,040 TIM RICHARDSON: awareness raising, as well as offering 609 00:26:36,070 --> 00:26:38,050 TIM RICHARDSON: training where appropriate, 610 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:40,689 TIM RICHARDSON: and trying to build those. 611 00:26:40,690 --> 00:26:43,389 TIM RICHARDSON: Now, there are natural places like the 612 00:26:43,390 --> 00:26:46,719 TIM RICHARDSON: safeguarding boards and the like, where 613 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,029 TIM RICHARDSON: I think you could build that in. 614 00:26:49,030 --> 00:26:51,118 JO HORNSBY: One of the things that, as a specialist worker 615 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,609 JO HORNSBY: and alongside my specialist colleagues, 616 00:26:54,610 --> 00:26:57,279 JO HORNSBY: is that it's keeping deaf children on, on the 617 00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:58,945 JO HORNSBY: agenda. Wherever you go it's 618 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,399 JO HORNSBY: making sure that it's mentioned and, 619 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:04,869 JO HORNSBY: you know, I think people get really fed up 620 00:27:04,870 --> 00:27:08,151 JO HORNSBY: with us with doing that, but we do do that. 621 00:27:08,152 --> 00:27:10,950 JO HORNSBY: Any meeting, any training, any 622 00:27:12,370 --> 00:27:15,459 JO HORNSBY: place where people are coming together, 623 00:27:15,460 --> 00:27:17,109 JO HORNSBY: you say "what about how would that be for a 624 00:27:17,110 --> 00:27:20,229 JO HORNSBY: deaf child in that situation?" You know, let's 625 00:27:20,230 --> 00:27:23,829 JO HORNSBY: think about that. So it's keeping 626 00:27:23,830 --> 00:27:25,480 JO HORNSBY: the deaf children on the agenda. 627 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:28,839 JO HORNSBY: And I mean d/Deaf awareness was something that 628 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,629 JO HORNSBY: we used to do very frequently. 629 00:27:31,630 --> 00:27:33,609 JO HORNSBY: And, of course, with the pressures — and this 630 00:27:33,610 --> 00:27:36,279 JO HORNSBY: is the reality of the current times — is that 631 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,489 JO HORNSBY: those things like d/Deaf awareness training 632 00:27:39,490 --> 00:27:40,959 JO HORNSBY: get pushed to the side a bit. 633 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,569 JO HORNSBY: And of course, it's so vital that that happens 634 00:27:43,570 --> 00:27:45,699 JO HORNSBY: because it is through that... 635 00:27:45,700 --> 00:27:47,049 JO HORNSBY: Yeah, we always used to come away with a 636 00:27:47,050 --> 00:27:48,518 JO HORNSBY: little fan group that, as you said Tim, 637 00:27:50,380 --> 00:27:53,439 JO HORNSBY: they are interested and they want to find 638 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:54,440 JO HORNSBY: out about it. 639 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,539 JO HORNSBY: Being able to continue to do that d/Deaf 640 00:27:58,540 --> 00:28:00,669 JO HORNSBY: awareness training with colleagues is really 641 00:28:00,670 --> 00:28:02,880 JO HORNSBY: vital, I think, particular to perhaps teams 642 00:28:04,090 --> 00:28:06,999 JO HORNSBY: that are at that coalface, like the MASH for 643 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,489 JO HORNSBY: example, who are receiving those referrals 644 00:28:10,490 --> 00:28:12,749 JO HORNSBY: in who really need to have that awareness. 645 00:28:12,750 --> 00:28:14,249 JO HORNSBY: And of course it needs to be something that's 646 00:28:14,250 --> 00:28:16,859 JO HORNSBY: ongoing, you can't just do it once and it's 647 00:28:16,860 --> 00:28:18,479 JO HORNSBY: done. It needs to be something that's done 648 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:19,859 JO HORNSBY: over and over again, doesn't it? 649 00:28:19,860 --> 00:28:21,509 JO HORNSBY: Because, you know, obviously information 650 00:28:21,510 --> 00:28:24,779 JO HORNSBY: changes, but also workers move on and 651 00:28:24,780 --> 00:28:27,299 JO HORNSBY: so there's different people who need to have 652 00:28:27,300 --> 00:28:28,679 JO HORNSBY: that awareness. 653 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:29,999 SHIRLEY WILSON: Thank you very much. 654 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,059 ALYS YOUNG: Before I say my point, Jo, what's MASH? 655 00:28:33,060 --> 00:28:34,949 JO HORNSBY: Oh MASH, sorry about that. 656 00:28:34,950 --> 00:28:38,489 JO HORNSBY: They're the multi-agency safeguarding 657 00:28:38,490 --> 00:28:41,537 JO HORNSBY: hub. So that's the team 658 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,869 JO HORNSBY: that receive those referrals 659 00:28:45,870 --> 00:28:47,879 JO HORNSBY: and are then processing that. 660 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:49,721 JO HORNSBY: So yes, very important that they 661 00:28:50,970 --> 00:28:52,919 JO HORNSBY: have that awareness. 662 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:54,929 ALYS YOUNG: Thanks for that. So the point I wanted to 663 00:28:54,930 --> 00:28:57,899 ALYS YOUNG: make: Shirley, you're asking us, really, 664 00:28:57,900 --> 00:29:00,989 ALYS YOUNG: about specialists as well 665 00:29:00,990 --> 00:29:03,359 ALYS YOUNG: within this process. 666 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,489 ALYS YOUNG: I suppose I've got three points I want to 667 00:29:05,490 --> 00:29:08,339 ALYS YOUNG: make. I absolutely, totally endorse what 668 00:29:08,340 --> 00:29:11,009 ALYS YOUNG: everybody said about needing very high 669 00:29:11,010 --> 00:29:13,949 ALYS YOUNG: quality, experienced interpreters 670 00:29:13,950 --> 00:29:15,839 ALYS YOUNG: who know what they're doing in child 671 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:17,249 ALYS YOUNG: protection. 672 00:29:17,250 --> 00:29:20,819 ALYS YOUNG: But interpreters do not solve the problem. 673 00:29:20,820 --> 00:29:23,099 ALYS YOUNG: And I've met too many social work 674 00:29:23,100 --> 00:29:26,549 ALYS YOUNG: professionals who think that they can manage 675 00:29:26,550 --> 00:29:28,949 ALYS YOUNG: a quite serious child safeguarding incident 676 00:29:28,950 --> 00:29:31,259 ALYS YOUNG: involving a d/Deaf child if they just bring an 677 00:29:31,260 --> 00:29:33,659 ALYS YOUNG: interpreter in, and then all the difficulties 678 00:29:33,660 --> 00:29:35,429 ALYS YOUNG: suddenly disappear. 679 00:29:35,430 --> 00:29:37,649 ALYS YOUNG: So I'd really like to clearly say that's not 680 00:29:37,650 --> 00:29:39,779 ALYS YOUNG: the case, because as all of us have said all 681 00:29:39,780 --> 00:29:42,479 ALYS YOUNG: the way through this podcast, it's actually 682 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,029 ALYS YOUNG: you need to understand d/Deaf children. 683 00:29:45,030 --> 00:29:47,849 ALYS YOUNG: You need to understand communication, language 684 00:29:47,850 --> 00:29:49,358 ALYS YOUNG: development, d/Deaf child experience, if 685 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,159 ALYS YOUNG: you're going to be standing alongside that 686 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,279 ALYS YOUNG: child in such a difficult situation; but also 687 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,109 ALYS YOUNG: make sense of all of the steps in the 688 00:29:58,110 --> 00:29:59,909 ALYS YOUNG: safeguarding process. 689 00:29:59,910 --> 00:30:02,669 ALYS YOUNG: So an interpreter is vital — doesn't solve the 690 00:30:02,670 --> 00:30:05,399 ALYS YOUNG: problem. There are, however, really good 691 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:07,619 ALYS YOUNG: d/Deaf professionals out there who are 692 00:30:07,620 --> 00:30:09,659 ALYS YOUNG: incredibly well qualified as well. 693 00:30:09,660 --> 00:30:12,029 ALYS YOUNG: They're quite rare, and sometimes they don't 694 00:30:12,030 --> 00:30:14,939 ALYS YOUNG: work directly as social workers; sometimes 695 00:30:14,940 --> 00:30:18,179 ALYS YOUNG: they do. I think there needs to be a point 696 00:30:18,180 --> 00:30:21,089 ALYS YOUNG: at which somebody asks themselves, "where 697 00:30:21,090 --> 00:30:23,609 ALYS YOUNG: is the d/Deaf person in this safeguarding 698 00:30:23,610 --> 00:30:26,669 ALYS YOUNG: process or in this child protection process?" 699 00:30:26,670 --> 00:30:28,949 ALYS YOUNG: Because whatever role that d/Deaf person is 700 00:30:28,950 --> 00:30:31,979 ALYS YOUNG: playing professionally, they will bring some 701 00:30:31,980 --> 00:30:34,559 ALYS YOUNG: things that hearing people do not have and can 702 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:36,239 ALYS YOUNG: never have. 703 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,399 ALYS YOUNG: And so where is the d/Deaf person in the 704 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,489 ALYS YOUNG: process professionally is a really important 705 00:30:41,490 --> 00:30:44,399 ALYS YOUNG: question. And my last question, or my 706 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,439 ALYS YOUNG: last point, is a question I constantly asked 707 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,589 ALYS YOUNG: myself when I was in practice, which is what 708 00:30:49,590 --> 00:30:52,499 ALYS YOUNG: is the limit of my expertise and 709 00:30:52,500 --> 00:30:54,959 ALYS YOUNG: what is the limit of my knowledge? 710 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,449 ALYS YOUNG: So that process of reflection as a 711 00:30:57,450 --> 00:30:59,609 ALYS YOUNG: professional, every step of the way, so that 712 00:30:59,610 --> 00:31:02,189 ALYS YOUNG: you recognise when you can't do something, 713 00:31:02,190 --> 00:31:04,649 ALYS YOUNG: when you don't know enough, when you need 714 00:31:04,650 --> 00:31:07,799 ALYS YOUNG: another person in the room supporting you. 715 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:09,599 ALYS YOUNG: And I think there's not enough of that 716 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:11,999 ALYS YOUNG: questioning that happens these days because, 717 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,249 ALYS YOUNG: as Jo, you've already said, social work 718 00:31:14,250 --> 00:31:16,439 ALYS YOUNG: departments are under huge pressure, so you 719 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,649 ALYS YOUNG: get allocated, you just do the job 720 00:31:19,650 --> 00:31:21,959 ALYS YOUNG: and that scope for reflection and just 721 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,119 ALYS YOUNG: stopping and saying, "I'm not good enough, I 722 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,639 ALYS YOUNG: don't know enough." There's very little space 723 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:28,019 ALYS YOUNG: for that these days. 724 00:31:28,020 --> 00:31:30,029 SHIRLEY WILSON: We have already talked about what is the 725 00:31:30,030 --> 00:31:31,770 SHIRLEY WILSON: impact of disappearing specialist 726 00:31:31,771 --> 00:31:34,679 SHIRLEY WILSON: knowledge in practice for working 727 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:36,809 SHIRLEY WILSON: with d/Deaf children, and we know that 728 00:31:36,810 --> 00:31:37,810 SHIRLEY WILSON: from the social workers group. 729 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,226 SHIRLEY WILSON: So I just wonder who wants to answer this: 730 00:31:41,227 --> 00:31:43,040 SHIRLEY WILSON: is there any miracle 731 00:31:44,460 --> 00:31:47,009 SHIRLEY WILSON: that we can look at to addressing this in 732 00:31:47,010 --> 00:31:48,989 SHIRLEY WILSON: current society. 733 00:31:48,990 --> 00:31:51,449 JO HORNSBY: Yeah, I mean it's it's a really, really 734 00:31:51,450 --> 00:31:53,279 JO HORNSBY: challenging question, isn't it? 735 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,549 JO HORNSBY: Because we know that the reality is 736 00:31:56,550 --> 00:31:59,669 JO HORNSBY: that there's tremendous pressures on local 737 00:31:59,670 --> 00:32:01,974 JO HORNSBY: authority children's services and the 738 00:32:04,230 --> 00:32:05,789 JO HORNSBY: pressures are relentless. 739 00:32:05,790 --> 00:32:09,029 JO HORNSBY: So the days of the specialist service feels 740 00:32:09,030 --> 00:32:11,249 JO HORNSBY: like there's not going to be, you know, it 741 00:32:11,250 --> 00:32:13,064 JO HORNSBY: feels to me like there's not going to be 742 00:32:14,370 --> 00:32:17,219 JO HORNSBY: a great change in that right at the moment. 743 00:32:17,220 --> 00:32:20,250 JO HORNSBY: So perhaps it is about, doing 744 00:32:21,570 --> 00:32:24,899 JO HORNSBY: what we're doing already in terms of 745 00:32:24,900 --> 00:32:27,989 JO HORNSBY: raising the awareness, keeping the subject 746 00:32:27,990 --> 00:32:29,249 JO HORNSBY: on the agenda. 747 00:32:29,250 --> 00:32:33,059 JO HORNSBY: I mean, for us — myself and my 748 00:32:33,060 --> 00:32:34,979 JO HORNSBY: colleagues who were part of that specialist 749 00:32:34,980 --> 00:32:38,369 JO HORNSBY: service and have that memory of that — 750 00:32:38,370 --> 00:32:40,559 JO HORNSBY: one of the things that we do is we ensure that 751 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,619 JO HORNSBY: we keep those relationships going. 752 00:32:43,620 --> 00:32:45,631 JO HORNSBY: We make sure that we liaise with our 753 00:32:45,632 --> 00:32:49,559 JO HORNSBY: colleagues, the teachers of the d/Deaf, 754 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,009 JO HORNSBY: and colleagues in audiology, so that 755 00:32:53,010 --> 00:32:56,339 JO HORNSBY: we're retaining that old model to some degree 756 00:32:56,340 --> 00:32:59,159 JO HORNSBY: in terms of working together and talking 757 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,649 JO HORNSBY: things through and having those conversations 758 00:33:01,650 --> 00:33:03,449 JO HORNSBY: about individual children. 759 00:33:03,450 --> 00:33:05,339 JO HORNSBY: And I think that that helps. 760 00:33:05,340 --> 00:33:08,129 TIM RICHARDSON: Yeah. I just wonder if it's such a 761 00:33:08,130 --> 00:33:09,412 TIM RICHARDSON: significant gap, and the right thing 762 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,109 TIM RICHARDSON: is to have that specialist knowledge, then 763 00:33:14,110 --> 00:33:15,819 TIM RICHARDSON: our efforts should be going to have that 764 00:33:15,820 --> 00:33:19,029 TIM RICHARDSON: reinstated rather than trying to 765 00:33:19,030 --> 00:33:20,349 TIM RICHARDSON: plug the gaps. 766 00:33:20,350 --> 00:33:23,259 TIM RICHARDSON: And I think that we've kind of got 767 00:33:23,260 --> 00:33:25,989 TIM RICHARDSON: into a way of working where that's what we 768 00:33:25,990 --> 00:33:28,959 TIM RICHARDSON: do. We try and make up for what's 769 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,219 TIM RICHARDSON: missing by cobbling things together. 770 00:33:32,220 --> 00:33:35,169 TIM RICHARDSON: I think it's worth, where we still 771 00:33:35,170 --> 00:33:38,379 TIM RICHARDSON: have that, if we could evidence what 772 00:33:38,380 --> 00:33:41,319 TIM RICHARDSON: difference that makes and be pushing for 773 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,029 TIM RICHARDSON: what should be in place rather than 774 00:33:43,030 --> 00:33:44,479 TIM RICHARDSON: accepting that it's not in place and covering for it. 775 00:33:47,371 --> 00:33:48,429 SHIRLEY WILSON: Thank you. Alys? 776 00:33:48,430 --> 00:33:49,809 ALYS YOUNG: I agree with both of you. 777 00:33:49,810 --> 00:33:52,449 ALYS YOUNG: I did some research about the demise of 778 00:33:52,450 --> 00:33:56,229 ALYS YOUNG: specialist social work teams a few years ago. 779 00:33:56,230 --> 00:33:59,529 ALYS YOUNG: One of our respondents described themselves 780 00:33:59,530 --> 00:34:01,689 ALYS YOUNG: when I said, "what do you do?" They said, "I'm 781 00:34:01,690 --> 00:34:04,749 ALYS YOUNG: a gap filler. I do the thing nobody else does 782 00:34:04,750 --> 00:34:07,329 ALYS YOUNG: that d/Deaf children and families need. 783 00:34:07,330 --> 00:34:10,299 ALYS YOUNG: And that's the definition of my job." In that 784 00:34:10,300 --> 00:34:12,519 ALYS YOUNG: same piece of research, we asked many local 785 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:16,029 ALYS YOUNG: authorities to tell us who's the specialist 786 00:34:16,030 --> 00:34:18,879 ALYS YOUNG: designated worker might be, because that's 787 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:20,919 ALYS YOUNG: somebody we needed to reach in order to do the 788 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:22,388 ALYS YOUNG: research. 789 00:34:22,389 --> 00:34:25,299 ALYS YOUNG: Most, and I genuinely mean most, 790 00:34:25,300 --> 00:34:28,218 ALYS YOUNG: couldn't tell us who their specialist social 791 00:34:28,219 --> 00:34:31,899 ALYS YOUNG: work professional might be, because the system 792 00:34:31,900 --> 00:34:34,209 ALYS YOUNG: said if there's a deaf child that comes to 793 00:34:34,210 --> 00:34:37,269 ALYS YOUNG: notice around a child protection concern, 794 00:34:37,270 --> 00:34:39,999 ALYS YOUNG: it goes into whatever the generic team is, 795 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,189 ALYS YOUNG: whether that's a children and families team or 796 00:34:42,190 --> 00:34:43,718 ALYS YOUNG: disabilities team. 797 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,349 ALYS YOUNG: And that structure covers up 798 00:34:47,350 --> 00:34:49,809 ALYS YOUNG: those pockets of specialism that still exist 799 00:34:49,810 --> 00:34:52,419 ALYS YOUNG: as well, which is another problem in this. 800 00:34:52,420 --> 00:34:54,502 ALYS YOUNG: But going back to your point, Tim. 801 00:34:54,503 --> 00:34:57,189 ALYS YOUNG: I think we do need to evidence things a bit 802 00:34:57,190 --> 00:34:59,469 ALYS YOUNG: more — I'm bound to say this working in a 803 00:34:59,470 --> 00:35:02,259 ALYS YOUNG: research department, but nonetheless — we need 804 00:35:02,260 --> 00:35:03,592 ALYS YOUNG: to evidence 805 00:35:05,620 --> 00:35:09,219 ALYS YOUNG: the harm and the unnecessary 806 00:35:09,220 --> 00:35:12,249 ALYS YOUNG: harm that happens to d/Deaf children 807 00:35:12,250 --> 00:35:15,459 ALYS YOUNG: because of late recognition 808 00:35:15,460 --> 00:35:18,789 ALYS YOUNG: when abuse happens, or because social services 809 00:35:18,790 --> 00:35:22,449 ALYS YOUNG: are only able to respond to the most extreme 810 00:35:22,450 --> 00:35:25,449 ALYS YOUNG: emergency or the most extreme manifestation 811 00:35:25,450 --> 00:35:26,450 ALYS YOUNG: of harm. 812 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,799 ALYS YOUNG: And we also need to evidence good practice 813 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:31,389 ALYS YOUNG: because it's still there. 814 00:35:31,390 --> 00:35:33,309 ALYS YOUNG: It's just very, very hidden. 815 00:35:33,310 --> 00:35:36,309 ALYS YOUNG: So what difference is it making that people 816 00:35:36,310 --> 00:35:38,139 ALYS YOUNG: like you, Jo, are working in the way you're 817 00:35:38,140 --> 00:35:39,459 ALYS YOUNG: working? 818 00:35:39,460 --> 00:35:42,279 ALYS YOUNG: How is that quantified? 819 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,289 ALYS YOUNG: And I know social workers are not that keen on 820 00:35:44,290 --> 00:35:46,329 ALYS YOUNG: things being quantified, but actually 821 00:35:46,330 --> 00:35:49,312 ALYS YOUNG: quantifying what makes a difference is 822 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,259 ALYS YOUNG: really important. And I think the third button 823 00:35:53,260 --> 00:35:57,399 ALYS YOUNG: to press, if you like, is the 'rights' button. 824 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,509 ALYS YOUNG: So children's rights and understanding 825 00:36:01,510 --> 00:36:03,339 ALYS YOUNG: the way in which services might not be 826 00:36:03,340 --> 00:36:05,979 ALYS YOUNG: adequate from the perspective of the rights of 827 00:36:05,980 --> 00:36:09,009 ALYS YOUNG: the child as opposed to what can a service 828 00:36:09,010 --> 00:36:11,919 ALYS YOUNG: provide. So changing the framework 829 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,779 ALYS YOUNG: a little bit in how we talk about the problem. 830 00:36:14,780 --> 00:36:17,949 ALYS YOUNG: I think that might create some pressure around 831 00:36:17,950 --> 00:36:20,769 ALYS YOUNG: supporting specialist social work development 832 00:36:20,770 --> 00:36:21,999 ALYS YOUNG: a bit more. 833 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,069 SHIRLEY WILSON: Thank you very much indeed for your 834 00:36:24,070 --> 00:36:26,769 SHIRLEY WILSON: contributions. I think this is a good 835 00:36:26,770 --> 00:36:28,719 SHIRLEY WILSON: place now to actually conclude our 836 00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:30,289 SHIRLEY WILSON: discussion. 837 00:36:30,290 --> 00:36:32,319 SHIRLEY WILSON: I want to say a massive thank you very 838 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,409 SHIRLEY WILSON: much to Tim Richardson, Professor 839 00:36:35,410 --> 00:36:37,839 SHIRLEY WILSON: Alys Young, and Jo Hornsby for joining us 840 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,149 SHIRLEY WILSON: today. And I hope this has been a really 841 00:36:40,150 --> 00:36:43,079 SHIRLEY WILSON: useful podcast for moving on. 842 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,159 SHIRLEY WILSON: Thank you very much indeed for all of your 843 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:46,160 SHIRLEY WILSON: time. 844 00:36:49,850 --> 00:36:52,219 OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC learning 845 00:36:52,220 --> 00:36:53,509 OUTRO: Podcast. 846 00:36:53,510 --> 00:36:56,149 OUTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content 847 00:36:56,150 --> 00:36:58,789 OUTRO: was up to date, but the world of safeguarding and 848 00:36:58,790 --> 00:36:59,941 OUTRO: child protection is ever-changing. 849 00:37:01,100 --> 00:37:03,229 OUTRO: So, if you're looking for the most current 850 00:37:03,230 --> 00:37:05,929 OUTRO: safeguarding and child protection training, 851 00:37:05,930 --> 00:37:08,929 OUTRO: information or resources, please visit 852 00:37:08,930 --> 00:37:11,725 OUTRO: our website for professionals at nspcc.org/learning.