INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where
INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child protection
INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation.
INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection
INTRO: and share good practice on how we can all work
INTRO: together to keep babies, children and young
INTRO: people safe.
PRODUCER: Welcome to the NSPCC learning Podcast.
PRODUCER: In this episode, you'll hear a discussion
PRODUCER: between a panel of experts from the Social
PRODUCER: Workers with Deaf Children and Professionals
PRODUCER: Working Group.
PRODUCER: This discussion, recorded in October 2023,
PRODUCER: explores how the differing language and
PRODUCER: communication needs of d/Deaf children can
PRODUCER: affect their safety and the child protection
PRODUCER: support they receive.
PRODUCER: Shirley Wilson, senior development consultant at
PRODUCER: the NSPCC, chaired the panel.
SHIRLEY WILSON: I'm Shirley Wilson.
SHIRLEY WILSON: I've been working as a senior consultant
SHIRLEY WILSON: for the NSPCC now for 12
SHIRLEY WILSON: years in a specific role in relation
SHIRLEY WILSON: to d/Deaf and disabled children and young
SHIRLEY WILSON: people.
SHIRLEY WILSON: What that actually means is I'm
SHIRLEY WILSON: responsible for working with a range of
SHIRLEY WILSON: external organisations to support
SHIRLEY WILSON: their safeguarding arrangements.
SHIRLEY WILSON: And that includes things like bespoke
SHIRLEY WILSON: training, reviewing their child
SHIRLEY WILSON: protection/safeguarding policies and
SHIRLEY WILSON: procedures. And prior to the NSPCC, I
SHIRLEY WILSON: worked as a social worker and manager in a
SHIRLEY WILSON: number of local authorities.
SHIRLEY WILSON: So now I'm going to introduce our topic
SHIRLEY WILSON: for today.
SHIRLEY WILSON: The headline of this is we're going to be
SHIRLEY WILSON: talking about language and communication
SHIRLEY WILSON: in relation to safeguarding d/Deaf
SHIRLEY WILSON: children and young people.
SHIRLEY WILSON: And that links to their families, because
SHIRLEY WILSON: one of the things that we do know about is
SHIRLEY WILSON: that language and communication
SHIRLEY WILSON: barriers faced by d/Deaf children, young
SHIRLEY WILSON: people actually manifests itself
SHIRLEY WILSON: in a way that increases safeguarding
SHIRLEY WILSON: risk. And I want to explore that today.
SHIRLEY WILSON: Just briefly, I just want to say what the
SHIRLEY WILSON: social workers with d/Deaf children and
SHIRLEY WILSON: professionals is. It's actually an
SHIRLEY WILSON: external group of social workers and
SHIRLEY WILSON: allied professionals who are working in a
SHIRLEY WILSON: range of domains.
SHIRLEY WILSON: These include local authorities, academia,
SHIRLEY WILSON: mental health, research and the charities
SHIRLEY WILSON: sector, in relation to d/Deaf
SHIRLEY WILSON: children and their families across
SHIRLEY WILSON: England. We've been chairing this group
SHIRLEY WILSON: for a long time, and all of you are
SHIRLEY WILSON: longstanding members of the group.
SHIRLEY WILSON: But what I want to make reference to is
SHIRLEY WILSON: that we produced some guidance —
SHIRLEY WILSON: and I particularly want to highlight a
SHIRLEY WILSON: thanks to Chris
SHIRLEY WILSON: Mullen from the NDCS, who's no longer
SHIRLEY WILSON: working for them anymore, he's moved on to
SHIRLEY WILSON: other careers — but he spent a lot of time
SHIRLEY WILSON: preparing the guidance, called 'Guidance
SHIRLEY WILSON: for Safeguarding Partners in England:
SHIRLEY WILSON: d/Deaf Children, Young People and their
SHIRLEY WILSON: Families', which we put together over
SHIRLEY WILSON: quite a long period of time
SHIRLEY WILSON: as a big collaboration.
SHIRLEY WILSON: And that finally went on the website at
SHIRLEY WILSON: the NDCS in August 2022.
SHIRLEY WILSON: The guidance is actually supporting
SHIRLEY WILSON: safeguarding partners and their
SHIRLEY WILSON: partnership boards in England to
SHIRLEY WILSON: consider what the safeguarding needs
SHIRLEY WILSON: of d/Deaf children, young people and their
SHIRLEY WILSON: families are with regard to the services
SHIRLEY WILSON: they provide. Now that sounds quite
SHIRLEY WILSON: long-winded, and I think what we can
SHIRLEY WILSON: do now is do much more
SHIRLEY WILSON: of a relaxed discussion about what we're
SHIRLEY WILSON: looking at, and I've got a number of
SHIRLEY WILSON: questions that I'm going to bring into the
SHIRLEY WILSON: discussion. But first of all, I'd like
SHIRLEY WILSON: people to introduce themselves. So can I
SHIRLEY WILSON: start with Professor Alys Young, then
SHIRLEY WILSON: we'll do Jo, and then Tim, thank you very
SHIRLEY WILSON: much.
ALYS YOUNG: Thanks, Shirley. Hello everybody.
ALYS YOUNG: I my name is Alys Young and I've worked for
ALYS YOUNG: many, many years alongside d/Deaf colleagues
ALYS YOUNG: in social work and in research.
ALYS YOUNG: I'm professor of social work at the University
ALYS YOUNG: of Manchester, and I'm also the co-director
ALYS YOUNG: of the SORD Research Group.
ALYS YOUNG: SORD, which is social research with
ALYS YOUNG: deaf people.
JO HORNSBY: Hello, everyone, I'm Jo Hornsby.
JO HORNSBY: I'm a social worker and have been a specialist
JO HORNSBY: social worker working with d/Deaf children and
JO HORNSBY: young people for quite a few years
JO HORNSBY: now. I work for the local authority
JO HORNSBY: in Suffolk.
JO HORNSBY: I used to be part of a specialist service,
JO HORNSBY: which I feel very privileged to have been
JO HORNSBY: working during that time when there were
JO HORNSBY: specialist services.
JO HORNSBY: In more recent years.
JO HORNSBY: I've remained a specialist worker but within
JO HORNSBY: the disabled children and young people's team
JO HORNSBY: in children and young people's service in
JO HORNSBY: Suffolk.
TIM RICHARDSON: My name is Tim Richardson.
TIM RICHARDSON: I worked in national d/Deaf CAMHS, child
TIM RICHARDSON: and adolescent mental health services, from
TIM RICHARDSON: 2010.
TIM RICHARDSON: I was the manager of the northern arm of
TIM RICHARDSON: National d/Deaf CAMHS, but I was also
TIM RICHARDSON: part of the leading group for the national
TIM RICHARDSON: development of national d/Deaf CAMHS
TIM RICHARDSON: alongside people like Professor Barry
TIM RICHARDSON: Wright and Doctor Sophie Roberts.
SHIRLEY WILSON: So I'm going to kick off with the first
SHIRLEY WILSON: question.
SHIRLEY WILSON: I might initially ask Alys to do an
SHIRLEY WILSON: initial response and then let's all chip
SHIRLEY WILSON: in.
SHIRLEY WILSON: The first question is about what
SHIRLEY WILSON: the additional support that a d/Deaf
SHIRLEY WILSON: child might need in relation to reporting
SHIRLEY WILSON: abuse or making
SHIRLEY WILSON: a disclosure. So what I'm looking at here
SHIRLEY WILSON: is what might that look like and how do
SHIRLEY WILSON: you think they could receive this type of
SHIRLEY WILSON: support or how could this support be
SHIRLEY WILSON: developed. So I'll kick off with you
SHIRLEY WILSON: Alys, and then everybody else can chip in.
ALYS YOUNG: So it's a really, really important question.
ALYS YOUNG: But before I get to it, I just want to go one
ALYS YOUNG: step back, which is just to remind
ALYS YOUNG: people who are viewing this podcast
ALYS YOUNG: that we're talking about d/Deaf children now
ALYS YOUNG: at this point in the 21st century.
ALYS YOUNG: And that's really important because d/Deaf
ALYS YOUNG: children now and the conditions in which
ALYS YOUNG: they're growing up and what's available
ALYS YOUNG: for d/Deaf children and their families is very
ALYS YOUNG: different than 20 years ago or 30 years ago.
ALYS YOUNG: And that's quite an important point, because
ALYS YOUNG: some experienced professionals might have an
ALYS YOUNG: image in their mind about d/Deaf children's
ALYS YOUNG: capabilities or the barriers that d/Deaf
ALYS YOUNG: children face that was actually formed in
ALYS YOUNG: previous time rather than contemporary time.
ALYS YOUNG: So something that we're all going to be
ALYS YOUNG: talking about is deaf children now, not deaf
ALYS YOUNG: children in the past. That links really
ALYS YOUNG: for me to another point.
ALYS YOUNG: D/deaf children at this point in the 21st
ALYS YOUNG: century generally are identified
ALYS YOUNG: very early. So that means their d/Deafness is
ALYS YOUNG: recognised very early on in life, from
ALYS YOUNG: baby onwards.
ALYS YOUNG: And we have very sophisticated hearing
ALYS YOUNG: technologies that are available for d/Deaf
ALYS YOUNG: children now, whether they're hearing aids,
ALYS YOUNG: whether they're cochlear implants.
ALYS YOUNG: We've also got a society that's very welcoming
ALYS YOUNG: of sign language.
ALYS YOUNG: You're seeing sign language everywhere,
ALYS YOUNG: whether it's Strictly Come Dancing or Bake-Off
ALYS YOUNG: or, you know, it's just in the aether in
ALYS YOUNG: society. So some of the stigma around
ALYS YOUNG: that perhaps is dissipating a little bit.
ALYS YOUNG: And we've got the new BSL Act
ALYS YOUNG: that came in at the end of last year, which
ALYS YOUNG: formally recognises the legal status of sign
ALYS YOUNG: language. What I'm saying here is
ALYS YOUNG: there's a sort of assumption growing in my
ALYS YOUNG: view, that the conditions are right
ALYS YOUNG: for d/Deaf children really to be a bit like
ALYS YOUNG: hearing children.
ALYS YOUNG: There's a sense out there that really
ALYS YOUNG: there aren't that many difficulties here,
ALYS YOUNG: there aren't that many barriers, but the truth
ALYS YOUNG: is completely the opposite.
ALYS YOUNG: To give you some examples; if you are
ALYS YOUNG: a hearing professional or just a hearing
ALYS YOUNG: person who's not used to being
ALYS YOUNG: around d/Deaf people, either professionally or
ALYS YOUNG: socially, if you hear a child speak
ALYS YOUNG: well — with hearing aids, for example — you
ALYS YOUNG: might think that they understand well.
ALYS YOUNG: Actually, that's not true.
ALYS YOUNG: If you see a child who signs,
ALYS YOUNG: you might think that they read well.
ALYS YOUNG: That's not necessarily true.
ALYS YOUNG: That very fundamental difference between
ALYS YOUNG: expressive communication and receptive
ALYS YOUNG: communication, so how well you seem to be able
ALYS YOUNG: to communicate and how well you can
ALYS YOUNG: understand; these are very often not
ALYS YOUNG: equivalent for children and professionals
ALYS YOUNG: very frequently misinterpret that.
ALYS YOUNG: And so for me, the first barrier I'd like to
ALYS YOUNG: suggest around reporting is
ALYS YOUNG: the assumptions that adults make
ALYS YOUNG: about d/Deaf children's capabilities around
ALYS YOUNG: communication.
ALYS YOUNG: And very often in a situation where a child
ALYS YOUNG: might be wishing to report something terrible
ALYS YOUNG: that's been happening to them, their preferred
ALYS YOUNG: language is perhaps not recognised, or
ALYS YOUNG: their preferred way to interact is perhaps
ALYS YOUNG: not recognised because, after all, it's easier
ALYS YOUNG: just to think, "oh, a deaf child can speak,
ALYS YOUNG: it's fine, we'll just use spoken language." So
ALYS YOUNG: my first point is: what is the child's
ALYS YOUNG: preference and how do we understand that
ALYS YOUNG: and how do we meet that.
ALYS YOUNG: And if a child doesn't see that happening for
ALYS YOUNG: them then that's a major barrier to reporting.
ALYS YOUNG: But I wonder whether, Joanne, from your
ALYS YOUNG: practice, that's something that you would
ALYS YOUNG: agree with? Or have you seen a different point
ALYS YOUNG: of view?
JO HORNSBY: Yeah. No, completely.
JO HORNSBY: I mean, I think the key is absolutely to
JO HORNSBY: start with where that child is at and
JO HORNSBY: that child-centred approach
JO HORNSBY: and understanding the preferences of that
JO HORNSBY: child and really understanding how
JO HORNSBY: they are communicating and what their
JO HORNSBY: experiences are on a day-to-day basis.
JO HORNSBY: And that's where it's so important that there
JO HORNSBY: are professionals involved and around that
JO HORNSBY: child at that time
JO HORNSBY: to have that awareness, so that
JO HORNSBY: they can really understand what's going on for
JO HORNSBY: that child and to be able to communicate
JO HORNSBY: with that child and reach
JO HORNSBY: those issues that the child may be
JO HORNSBY: experiencing.
JO HORNSBY: And that's where perhaps we've seen
JO HORNSBY: a bit of a change
JO HORNSBY: over the past few years in that
JO HORNSBY: those specialist teams aren't there in the
JO HORNSBY: same way that they were.
JO HORNSBY: And there might be specialist workers, but it
JO HORNSBY: might be more difficult for that child
JO HORNSBY: to gain access to those.
JO HORNSBY: So, yes, it's very
JO HORNSBY: tricky. And of course, you know, it's also
JO HORNSBY: very important to be...
JO HORNSBY: I think when we often become involved,
JO HORNSBY: it's where families are really struggling.
JO HORNSBY: So it's also being able to
JO HORNSBY: understand where the parents are at and
JO HORNSBY: what experiences that parents have
JO HORNSBY: had. Obviously, as we know, most
JO HORNSBY: d/Deaf children are born to hearing parents.
JO HORNSBY: So we're, often working with
JO HORNSBY: people who may have had very limited,
JO HORNSBY: knowledge or experience of being
JO HORNSBY: around d/Deaf people in their
JO HORNSBY: lives, so this can be a real shock
JO HORNSBY: to them.
JO HORNSBY: And again, it's really
JO HORNSBY: important for those families to have access to
JO HORNSBY: workers who have got that awareness and
JO HORNSBY: understanding about what that family might be
JO HORNSBY: going through at that time.
SHIRLEY WILSON: That's great. Tim, have you got some
SHIRLEY WILSON: thoughts on this?
TIM RICHARDSON: Yes, thanks Shirley.
TIM RICHARDSON: I think at the risk of labouring the
TIM RICHARDSON: point, quite often d/Deaf children
TIM RICHARDSON: and young people will communicate in the
TIM RICHARDSON: way that the people around them can best
TIM RICHARDSON: receive. So they will modify their
TIM RICHARDSON: communication to meet the needs of those
TIM RICHARDSON: around them. I think going back to Alys'
TIM RICHARDSON: point, it's really key that before we even
TIM RICHARDSON: start out, don't make those assumptions.
TIM RICHARDSON: Don't be seduced by how well a
TIM RICHARDSON: young person might be communicating to
TIM RICHARDSON: think that that is their preferred way of
TIM RICHARDSON: communicating.
TIM RICHARDSON: It takes a little bit of effort,
TIM RICHARDSON: and what we would call something like
TIM RICHARDSON: scaffolding, not to take that face value
TIM RICHARDSON: thing, but to go back a step.
TIM RICHARDSON: For example, when you're talking about
TIM RICHARDSON: emotions, you might want to first talk
TIM RICHARDSON: about what an emotion is and have a real
TIM RICHARDSON: understanding that the young person
TIM RICHARDSON: understands what you're talking about
TIM RICHARDSON: before you then launch into what emotions
TIM RICHARDSON: a young person might be feeling.
TIM RICHARDSON: Key, I think, is having
TIM RICHARDSON: people who understand the d/Deaf
TIM RICHARDSON: experience and whether that be
TIM RICHARDSON: a deaf person is great,
TIM RICHARDSON: or a sign language interpreter; people
TIM RICHARDSON: who are going to be keyed in
TIM RICHARDSON: or more linked in with the language
TIM RICHARDSON: and the communication and to be able to
TIM RICHARDSON: pick up on those subtleties that, if
TIM RICHARDSON: you're not used to working with d/Deaf
TIM RICHARDSON: children and young people, you could very
TIM RICHARDSON: well miss out on.
ALYS YOUNG: Could I possibly just add to what you're
ALYS YOUNG: saying about emotion, Tim?
ALYS YOUNG: Because I think it's absolutely crucial here.
ALYS YOUNG: I think that, linked again to barriers
ALYS YOUNG: to reporting or barriers to abuse being
ALYS YOUNG: recognised by other people — because obviously
ALYS YOUNG: it's both things. It's a child reporting or in
ALYS YOUNG: some cases it might be an adult recognising
ALYS YOUNG: there's something wrong. So my point refers to
ALYS YOUNG: both. One of the things about d/Deafness,
ALYS YOUNG: whether you're a spoken language user or a
ALYS YOUNG: sign language user, is that there is an
ALYS YOUNG: interruption in some way to your ability to
ALYS YOUNG: pick up language, ideas,
ALYS YOUNG: general conversation,
ALYS YOUNG: kind of world knowledge, and d/Deaf children
ALYS YOUNG: in different ways experience
ALYS YOUNG: a lack in that. Some are superb, absolutely;
ALYS YOUNG: almost no filter, no difference.
ALYS YOUNG: But for many children there are significant
ALYS YOUNG: difficulties in learning
ALYS YOUNG: about nuances.
ALYS YOUNG: So, years ago, I remember a very well known,
ALYS YOUNG: professional working in this area used to talk
ALYS YOUNG: about emotionally toned language
ALYS YOUNG: so that if you are actually in conversations
ALYS YOUNG: all the time, you can pick up quite easily the
ALYS YOUNG: difference between being furious, being mildly
ALYS YOUNG: angry, being a little annoyed.
ALYS YOUNG: You pick up those differences in language, and
ALYS YOUNG: you develop inside the emotional toning
ALYS YOUNG: of your own understanding of the world.
ALYS YOUNG: I think for d/Deaf children, that's really
ALYS YOUNG: difficult to do if there are blocks in
ALYS YOUNG: access just to casual communication,
ALYS YOUNG: never mind anything else.
ALYS YOUNG: So then taking your point Tim, when you come
ALYS YOUNG: to a situation where a child might
ALYS YOUNG: have experienced abuse and you're asking
ALYS YOUNG: a question that's about emotion and about
ALYS YOUNG: understanding the world emotionally and
ALYS YOUNG: psychologically, that child might not
ALYS YOUNG: have the expected range of understanding
ALYS YOUNG: of a child of that age.
ALYS YOUNG: Or they might do. Again, we can't make
ALYS YOUNG: assumptions generally; every child is
ALYS YOUNG: different. But I think it is a really key
ALYS YOUNG: point that professionals who aren't
ALYS YOUNG: specialists, like Joanne was talking about,
ALYS YOUNG: are unlikely to realise is significant.
TIM RICHARDSON: I think that's absolutely spots on Alys,
TIM RICHARDSON: and I think it goes back to that asking
TIM RICHARDSON: the question behind that might feel a
TIM RICHARDSON: little bit obvious.
TIM RICHARDSON: But when you ask...
TIM RICHARDSON: Quite often we speak with young people...
TIM RICHARDSON: And this to contextualise it, the young
TIM RICHARDSON: people we work with have significant
TIM RICHARDSON: mental health issues. So we're talking
TIM RICHARDSON: about a particular population within a
TIM RICHARDSON: population. But very often it's not
TIM RICHARDSON: infrequent where the three emotions they
TIM RICHARDSON: can name are happy, angry and sad.
TIM RICHARDSON: So there's no nuance, going back to the
TIM RICHARDSON: toning.
TIM RICHARDSON: That also gets played out in behaviour.
TIM RICHARDSON: So you can go from a young person sitting
TIM RICHARDSON: there in the classroom to a young person
TIM RICHARDSON: acting out very aggressively and people
TIM RICHARDSON: around them being genuinely surprised
TIM RICHARDSON: about where that came from.
TIM RICHARDSON: But it almost mirrors their understanding
TIM RICHARDSON: of, because there was no language, there
TIM RICHARDSON: was no way to express "I'm starting to
TIM RICHARDSON: feel frustrated now."
SHIRLEY WILSON: Can I just add to this a slightly
SHIRLEY WILSON: different perspective, and then I'll move
SHIRLEY WILSON: on to the next question.
SHIRLEY WILSON: I've recently been doing some bespoke
SHIRLEY WILSON: training this year, particulary with
SHIRLEY WILSON: actually quite a few d/Deaf organisations.
SHIRLEY WILSON: It's been really positive that they've
SHIRLEY WILSON: been coming forward.
SHIRLEY WILSON: One of the things for me that I bring up
SHIRLEY WILSON: is the sign for abuse is
SHIRLEY WILSON: one: it's abuse.
SHIRLEY WILSON: You all know this, but I think the general
SHIRLEY WILSON: population just look at abuse.
SHIRLEY WILSON: What I've said to these d/Deaf adults,
SHIRLEY WILSON: because they work with d/Deaf young people
SHIRLEY WILSON: and children and their families, is: how
SHIRLEY WILSON: do you expect a child to be able to make a
SHIRLEY WILSON: disclosure if they think this [the BSL
SHIRLEY WILSON: sign for abuse] just means 'beating
SHIRLEY WILSON: up'. Where in actualy fact we need to go
SHIRLEY WILSON: into much greater detail about sexual
SHIRLEY WILSON: abuse, emotional abuse, neglect.
SHIRLEY WILSON: I'm
SHIRLEY WILSON: trying to get across to the d/Deaf
SHIRLEY WILSON: adult community, because I feel that they
SHIRLEY WILSON: also have a role to play in supporting the
SHIRLEY WILSON: work that happens out there.
SHIRLEY WILSON: Some of these organisations are absolutely
SHIRLEY WILSON: fantastic because they provide services
SHIRLEY WILSON: that the local authorities are unable to
SHIRLEY WILSON: provide now, so whether have the support
SHIRLEY WILSON: that they can help their groups.
SHIRLEY WILSON: And I feel that by them having a better
SHIRLEY WILSON: understanding, and when we have those
SHIRLEY WILSON: discussions about the word abuse, they
SHIRLEY WILSON: then start to unravel that.
SHIRLEY WILSON: I hope in time that that will then
SHIRLEY WILSON: filter down to the younger d/Deaf
SHIRLEY WILSON: population.
SHIRLEY WILSON: So I just wanted to add to that because I
SHIRLEY WILSON: think it really is quite critical.
ALYS YOUNG: We've talked a lot about the difficulties and
ALYS YOUNG: the problems. I'd like to throw in something
ALYS YOUNG: positive here, because I don't want somebody
ALYS YOUNG: looking at this podcast thinking every d/Deaf
ALYS YOUNG: child has a problem, you know, and every
ALYS YOUNG: d/Deaf child is likely to be abused.
ALYS YOUNG: I think one of the things that d/Deaf young
ALYS YOUNG: people do as peers — so when d/Deaf young
ALYS YOUNG: people are with other d/Deaf young people — is
ALYS YOUNG: that they can spot really quickly
ALYS YOUNG: whether there's something not quite right with
ALYS YOUNG: their friend or within their peer group.
ALYS YOUNG: And some of that acuity is a visual
ALYS YOUNG: acuity that hearing people don't have in the
ALYS YOUNG: same way. That visual recognition of
ALYS YOUNG: differences in facial expression, body tone,
ALYS YOUNG: nonverbal tone, that kind of thing.
ALYS YOUNG: The problem is that young d/Deaf people, as
ALYS YOUNG: peers, often don't know the route
ALYS YOUNG: to take their concerns.
ALYS YOUNG: So who is likely to believe them?
ALYS YOUNG: If they want to support their friend to say
ALYS YOUNG: something, who would that friend talk to?
ALYS YOUNG: Who is the trusted adult and the trusted
ALYS YOUNG: adult who can communicate?
ALYS YOUNG: Because we know from all the resilience
ALYS YOUNG: literature, for example, it just takes one
ALYS YOUNG: trusted adult that you feel comfortable
ALYS YOUNG: communicating with, and the young person's
ALYS YOUNG: world can just change.
ALYS YOUNG: But for d/Deaf young people, the number of
ALYS YOUNG: potentially trusted adults is a lot less,
ALYS YOUNG: particularly if, for example, abuse is
ALYS YOUNG: happening in a family.
ALYS YOUNG: And a family member that you might actually
ALYS YOUNG: feel comfortable with and want to talk to, you
ALYS YOUNG: just think you can't do that because they are
ALYS YOUNG: too closely connected with somebody who might
ALYS YOUNG: be creating an abusive situation.
SHIRLEY WILSON: Can I now move on to the next question, if
SHIRLEY WILSON: that's all right? Because I'm just conscious
SHIRLEY WILSON: we've got a lot we want to talk about
SHIRLEY WILSON: here. My next question is:
SHIRLEY WILSON: what barriers do you think might prevent
SHIRLEY WILSON: professionals from identifying
SHIRLEY WILSON: safeguarding concerns when working with
SHIRLEY WILSON: d/Deaf children and young people. Because
SHIRLEY WILSON: I think, obviously, you have a lot of
SHIRLEY WILSON: experience in that area.
TIM RICHARDSON: Alys already touched on that one of the
TIM RICHARDSON: barriers is having a route for a young
TIM RICHARDSON: person to express their concerns.
TIM RICHARDSON: And I suppose one of the things there is
TIM RICHARDSON: how do we facilitate communication
TIM RICHARDSON: generally and how do we create
TIM RICHARDSON: that space for a trusted person or a
TIM RICHARDSON: trusted dialogue, if you like?
TIM RICHARDSON: I think one of the barriers, historically
TIM RICHARDSON: and maybe still, is that
TIM RICHARDSON: there can be low expectations for d/Deaf
TIM RICHARDSON: children and young people that can be
TIM RICHARDSON: sometimes within families, and it can also
TIM RICHARDSON: be within professional groups.
TIM RICHARDSON: So what we would expect, for example,
TIM RICHARDSON: in terms of what language a young
TIM RICHARDSON: person or a child might have; that might
TIM RICHARDSON: be modified. And we've sadly seen
TIM RICHARDSON: actual cases where that is and that's led
TIM RICHARDSON: to tragic outcomes, where we've not
TIM RICHARDSON: accepted that it's not okay for a young
TIM RICHARDSON: person, d/Deaf or hearing to not have a
TIM RICHARDSON: language at the age of three.
TIM RICHARDSON: So, I think a lot of this — I mean,
TIM RICHARDSON: sometimes I feel a bit like a stuck record
TIM RICHARDSON: — but a lot of it comes back to language
TIM RICHARDSON: and communication and making sure we get
TIM RICHARDSON: that bedrock right.
TIM RICHARDSON: The effort should be on the part of us as
TIM RICHARDSON: professionals and the people around the
TIM RICHARDSON: child to create as many opportunities
TIM RICHARDSON: for that young person to express
TIM RICHARDSON: themselves in the way that is their
TIM RICHARDSON: preferred way.
JO HORNSBY: I was just thinking about all of the
JO HORNSBY: complications, just thinking about the
JO HORNSBY: process, you know, that a child
JO HORNSBY: and a family have had to go through, and
JO HORNSBY: there's so many complications in that process,
JO HORNSBY: isn't there.
JO HORNSBY: From the outset we've got children who have
JO HORNSBY: got those language and communication barriers,
JO HORNSBY: so they may not have the language to be able
JO HORNSBY: to name and tell
JO HORNSBY: us what is going on for them in the first
JO HORNSBY: place. Then, do they have a trusted
JO HORNSBY: person to go to to say that?
JO HORNSBY: And is that trusted person somehow
JO HORNSBY: incorporated in what's going on for them?
JO HORNSBY: That's a complication in itself.
JO HORNSBY: And then you've got to work
JO HORNSBY: the way through a potentially difficult
JO HORNSBY: system, where professionals are perhaps
JO HORNSBY: not having the awareness
JO HORNSBY: to then respond as that child needs them to
JO HORNSBY: respond. So there are so many complications,
JO HORNSBY: aren't there, along that route.
JO HORNSBY: And then, of course, if a child has made
JO HORNSBY: a disclosure, in order to then be able to
JO HORNSBY: progress with that situation and to
JO HORNSBY: take some action, and for there to be some
JO HORNSBY: outcome from it, you need the detail.
JO HORNSBY: You need the evidence. You need the child to
JO HORNSBY: be able to explain to you what has happened.
JO HORNSBY: And, of course, that's a highly complicated
JO HORNSBY: process and requires a deep
JO HORNSBY: understanding, as we've said, about how that
JO HORNSBY: child communicates. What's their preferred way
JO HORNSBY: of expressing that, and
JO HORNSBY: then having the awareness and ability to be
JO HORNSBY: able to respond to that. The professionals in
JO HORNSBY: that process need to have good awareness and
JO HORNSBY: good communication skills, and then access to
JO HORNSBY: interpreting services, interpreters
JO HORNSBY: who are appropriately trained, and can
JO HORNSBY: respond in the appropriate ways.
JO HORNSBY: So there's so many points along
JO HORNSBY: that process where things can
JO HORNSBY: fall down and where we don't manage
JO HORNSBY: to respond in the way that we should do for
JO HORNSBY: that child to get to the place where we need
JO HORNSBY: to be.
SHIRLEY WILSON: Thank you. I don't want to stop the
SHIRLEY WILSON: conversation, because I think the next
SHIRLEY WILSON: question actually is going to be
SHIRLEY WILSON: incorporating a lot of what you've already
SHIRLEY WILSON: started. I want to expand on that a bit
SHIRLEY WILSON: more, because I think the systematic
SHIRLEY WILSON: process of child protection procedures is
SHIRLEY WILSON: a big barrier. For me,
SHIRLEY WILSON: the next question I think — Tim, if I can
SHIRLEY WILSON: ask you to start this off — what do
SHIRLEY WILSON: you think professionals could do to
SHIRLEY WILSON: develop effective multi-agency
SHIRLEY WILSON: partnership, that not only considers
SHIRLEY WILSON: the needs, but for me it's about
SHIRLEY WILSON: how does it strengthen the response of
SHIRLEY WILSON: meaningful services? Crux of the matter,
SHIRLEY WILSON: it's about meaningful services to children
SHIRLEY WILSON: and their families.
TIM RICHARDSON: Yeah. I think it it goes...
TIM RICHARDSON: it links in with the work we've done
TIM RICHARDSON: within the group.
TIM RICHARDSON: It's thinking about doing things before.
TIM RICHARDSON: So establishing foundations,
TIM RICHARDSON: establishing networks locally, introducing
TIM RICHARDSON: the issues for d/Deaf children and young
TIM RICHARDSON: people to groups like in schools
TIM RICHARDSON: and social care.
TIM RICHARDSON: What you'll find is when you do that,
TIM RICHARDSON: there's always a cohort of people who are
TIM RICHARDSON: really interested, who really want to take
TIM RICHARDSON: up...
TIM RICHARDSON: pick up the panel with us, you know, sort
TIM RICHARDSON: of thing. Even if they haven't had BSL
TIM RICHARDSON: or they haven't got any prior knowledge of
TIM RICHARDSON: working with d/Deaf people, there are
TIM RICHARDSON: people who are genuinely captivated by it,
TIM RICHARDSON: who will be natural allies in terms
TIM RICHARDSON: of people to go to, whether that be in a
TIM RICHARDSON: social services department, or in health
TIM RICHARDSON: or in education. In general it is about, I
TIM RICHARDSON: think, there's something about their needs
TIM RICHARDSON: to be work beforehand to set up, to
TIM RICHARDSON: find where are our natural allies.
TIM RICHARDSON: Getting out there, doing a bit of
TIM RICHARDSON: awareness raising, as well as offering
TIM RICHARDSON: training where appropriate,
TIM RICHARDSON: and trying to build those.
TIM RICHARDSON: Now, there are natural places like the
TIM RICHARDSON: safeguarding boards and the like, where
TIM RICHARDSON: I think you could build that in.
JO HORNSBY: One of the things that, as a specialist worker
JO HORNSBY: and alongside my specialist colleagues,
JO HORNSBY: is that it's keeping deaf children on, on the
JO HORNSBY: agenda. Wherever you go it's
JO HORNSBY: making sure that it's mentioned and,
JO HORNSBY: you know, I think people get really fed up
JO HORNSBY: with us with doing that, but we do do that.
JO HORNSBY: Any meeting, any training, any
JO HORNSBY: place where people are coming together,
JO HORNSBY: you say "what about how would that be for a
JO HORNSBY: deaf child in that situation?" You know, let's
JO HORNSBY: think about that. So it's keeping
JO HORNSBY: the deaf children on the agenda.
JO HORNSBY: And I mean d/Deaf awareness was something that
JO HORNSBY: we used to do very frequently.
JO HORNSBY: And, of course, with the pressures — and this
JO HORNSBY: is the reality of the current times — is that
JO HORNSBY: those things like d/Deaf awareness training
JO HORNSBY: get pushed to the side a bit.
JO HORNSBY: And of course, it's so vital that that happens
JO HORNSBY: because it is through that...
JO HORNSBY: Yeah, we always used to come away with a
JO HORNSBY: little fan group that, as you said Tim,
JO HORNSBY: they are interested and they want to find
JO HORNSBY: out about it.
JO HORNSBY: Being able to continue to do that d/Deaf
JO HORNSBY: awareness training with colleagues is really
JO HORNSBY: vital, I think, particular to perhaps teams
JO HORNSBY: that are at that coalface, like the MASH for
JO HORNSBY: example, who are receiving those referrals
JO HORNSBY: in who really need to have that awareness.
JO HORNSBY: And of course it needs to be something that's
JO HORNSBY: ongoing, you can't just do it once and it's
JO HORNSBY: done. It needs to be something that's done
JO HORNSBY: over and over again, doesn't it?
JO HORNSBY: Because, you know, obviously information
JO HORNSBY: changes, but also workers move on and
JO HORNSBY: so there's different people who need to have
JO HORNSBY: that awareness.
SHIRLEY WILSON: Thank you very much.
ALYS YOUNG: Before I say my point, Jo, what's MASH?
JO HORNSBY: Oh MASH, sorry about that.
JO HORNSBY: They're the multi-agency safeguarding
JO HORNSBY: hub. So that's the team
JO HORNSBY: that receive those referrals
JO HORNSBY: and are then processing that.
JO HORNSBY: So yes, very important that they
JO HORNSBY: have that awareness.
ALYS YOUNG: Thanks for that. So the point I wanted to
ALYS YOUNG: make: Shirley, you're asking us, really,
ALYS YOUNG: about specialists as well
ALYS YOUNG: within this process.
ALYS YOUNG: I suppose I've got three points I want to
ALYS YOUNG: make. I absolutely, totally endorse what
ALYS YOUNG: everybody said about needing very high
ALYS YOUNG: quality, experienced interpreters
ALYS YOUNG: who know what they're doing in child
ALYS YOUNG: protection.
ALYS YOUNG: But interpreters do not solve the problem.
ALYS YOUNG: And I've met too many social work
ALYS YOUNG: professionals who think that they can manage
ALYS YOUNG: a quite serious child safeguarding incident
ALYS YOUNG: involving a d/Deaf child if they just bring an
ALYS YOUNG: interpreter in, and then all the difficulties
ALYS YOUNG: suddenly disappear.
ALYS YOUNG: So I'd really like to clearly say that's not
ALYS YOUNG: the case, because as all of us have said all
ALYS YOUNG: the way through this podcast, it's actually
ALYS YOUNG: you need to understand d/Deaf children.
ALYS YOUNG: You need to understand communication, language
ALYS YOUNG: development, d/Deaf child experience, if
ALYS YOUNG: you're going to be standing alongside that
ALYS YOUNG: child in such a difficult situation; but also
ALYS YOUNG: make sense of all of the steps in the
ALYS YOUNG: safeguarding process.
ALYS YOUNG: So an interpreter is vital — doesn't solve the
ALYS YOUNG: problem. There are, however, really good
ALYS YOUNG: d/Deaf professionals out there who are
ALYS YOUNG: incredibly well qualified as well.
ALYS YOUNG: They're quite rare, and sometimes they don't
ALYS YOUNG: work directly as social workers; sometimes
ALYS YOUNG: they do. I think there needs to be a point
ALYS YOUNG: at which somebody asks themselves, "where
ALYS YOUNG: is the d/Deaf person in this safeguarding
ALYS YOUNG: process or in this child protection process?"
ALYS YOUNG: Because whatever role that d/Deaf person is
ALYS YOUNG: playing professionally, they will bring some
ALYS YOUNG: things that hearing people do not have and can
ALYS YOUNG: never have.
ALYS YOUNG: And so where is the d/Deaf person in the
ALYS YOUNG: process professionally is a really important
ALYS YOUNG: question. And my last question, or my
ALYS YOUNG: last point, is a question I constantly asked
ALYS YOUNG: myself when I was in practice, which is what
ALYS YOUNG: is the limit of my expertise and
ALYS YOUNG: what is the limit of my knowledge?
ALYS YOUNG: So that process of reflection as a
ALYS YOUNG: professional, every step of the way, so that
ALYS YOUNG: you recognise when you can't do something,
ALYS YOUNG: when you don't know enough, when you need
ALYS YOUNG: another person in the room supporting you.
ALYS YOUNG: And I think there's not enough of that
ALYS YOUNG: questioning that happens these days because,
ALYS YOUNG: as Jo, you've already said, social work
ALYS YOUNG: departments are under huge pressure, so you
ALYS YOUNG: get allocated, you just do the job
ALYS YOUNG: and that scope for reflection and just
ALYS YOUNG: stopping and saying, "I'm not good enough, I
ALYS YOUNG: don't know enough." There's very little space
ALYS YOUNG: for that these days.
SHIRLEY WILSON: We have already talked about what is the
SHIRLEY WILSON: impact of disappearing specialist
SHIRLEY WILSON: knowledge in practice for working
SHIRLEY WILSON: with d/Deaf children, and we know that
SHIRLEY WILSON: from the social workers group.
SHIRLEY WILSON: So I just wonder who wants to answer this:
SHIRLEY WILSON: is there any miracle
SHIRLEY WILSON: that we can look at to addressing this in
SHIRLEY WILSON: current society.
JO HORNSBY: Yeah, I mean it's it's a really, really
JO HORNSBY: challenging question, isn't it?
JO HORNSBY: Because we know that the reality is
JO HORNSBY: that there's tremendous pressures on local
JO HORNSBY: authority children's services and the
JO HORNSBY: pressures are relentless.
JO HORNSBY: So the days of the specialist service feels
JO HORNSBY: like there's not going to be, you know, it
JO HORNSBY: feels to me like there's not going to be
JO HORNSBY: a great change in that right at the moment.
JO HORNSBY: So perhaps it is about, doing
JO HORNSBY: what we're doing already in terms of
JO HORNSBY: raising the awareness, keeping the subject
JO HORNSBY: on the agenda.
JO HORNSBY: I mean, for us — myself and my
JO HORNSBY: colleagues who were part of that specialist
JO HORNSBY: service and have that memory of that —
JO HORNSBY: one of the things that we do is we ensure that
JO HORNSBY: we keep those relationships going.
JO HORNSBY: We make sure that we liaise with our
JO HORNSBY: colleagues, the teachers of the d/Deaf,
JO HORNSBY: and colleagues in audiology, so that
JO HORNSBY: we're retaining that old model to some degree
JO HORNSBY: in terms of working together and talking
JO HORNSBY: things through and having those conversations
JO HORNSBY: about individual children.
JO HORNSBY: And I think that that helps.
TIM RICHARDSON: Yeah. I just wonder if it's such a
TIM RICHARDSON: significant gap, and the right thing
TIM RICHARDSON: is to have that specialist knowledge, then
TIM RICHARDSON: our efforts should be going to have that
TIM RICHARDSON: reinstated rather than trying to
TIM RICHARDSON: plug the gaps.
TIM RICHARDSON: And I think that we've kind of got
TIM RICHARDSON: into a way of working where that's what we
TIM RICHARDSON: do. We try and make up for what's
TIM RICHARDSON: missing by cobbling things together.
TIM RICHARDSON: I think it's worth, where we still
TIM RICHARDSON: have that, if we could evidence what
TIM RICHARDSON: difference that makes and be pushing for
TIM RICHARDSON: what should be in place rather than
TIM RICHARDSON: accepting that it's not in place and covering for it.
SHIRLEY WILSON: Thank you. Alys?
ALYS YOUNG: I agree with both of you.
ALYS YOUNG: I did some research about the demise of
ALYS YOUNG: specialist social work teams a few years ago.
ALYS YOUNG: One of our respondents described themselves
ALYS YOUNG: when I said, "what do you do?" They said, "I'm
ALYS YOUNG: a gap filler. I do the thing nobody else does
ALYS YOUNG: that d/Deaf children and families need.
ALYS YOUNG: And that's the definition of my job." In that
ALYS YOUNG: same piece of research, we asked many local
ALYS YOUNG: authorities to tell us who's the specialist
ALYS YOUNG: designated worker might be, because that's
ALYS YOUNG: somebody we needed to reach in order to do the
ALYS YOUNG: research.
ALYS YOUNG: Most, and I genuinely mean most,
ALYS YOUNG: couldn't tell us who their specialist social
ALYS YOUNG: work professional might be, because the system
ALYS YOUNG: said if there's a deaf child that comes to
ALYS YOUNG: notice around a child protection concern,
ALYS YOUNG: it goes into whatever the generic team is,
ALYS YOUNG: whether that's a children and families team or
ALYS YOUNG: disabilities team.
ALYS YOUNG: And that structure covers up
ALYS YOUNG: those pockets of specialism that still exist
ALYS YOUNG: as well, which is another problem in this.
ALYS YOUNG: But going back to your point, Tim.
ALYS YOUNG: I think we do need to evidence things a bit
ALYS YOUNG: more — I'm bound to say this working in a
ALYS YOUNG: research department, but nonetheless — we need
ALYS YOUNG: to evidence
ALYS YOUNG: the harm and the unnecessary
ALYS YOUNG: harm that happens to d/Deaf children
ALYS YOUNG: because of late recognition
ALYS YOUNG: when abuse happens, or because social services
ALYS YOUNG: are only able to respond to the most extreme
ALYS YOUNG: emergency or the most extreme manifestation
ALYS YOUNG: of harm.
ALYS YOUNG: And we also need to evidence good practice
ALYS YOUNG: because it's still there.
ALYS YOUNG: It's just very, very hidden.
ALYS YOUNG: So what difference is it making that people
ALYS YOUNG: like you, Jo, are working in the way you're
ALYS YOUNG: working?
ALYS YOUNG: How is that quantified?
ALYS YOUNG: And I know social workers are not that keen on
ALYS YOUNG: things being quantified, but actually
ALYS YOUNG: quantifying what makes a difference is
ALYS YOUNG: really important. And I think the third button
ALYS YOUNG: to press, if you like, is the 'rights' button.
ALYS YOUNG: So children's rights and understanding
ALYS YOUNG: the way in which services might not be
ALYS YOUNG: adequate from the perspective of the rights of
ALYS YOUNG: the child as opposed to what can a service
ALYS YOUNG: provide. So changing the framework
ALYS YOUNG: a little bit in how we talk about the problem.
ALYS YOUNG: I think that might create some pressure around
ALYS YOUNG: supporting specialist social work development
ALYS YOUNG: a bit more.
SHIRLEY WILSON: Thank you very much indeed for your
SHIRLEY WILSON: contributions. I think this is a good
SHIRLEY WILSON: place now to actually conclude our
SHIRLEY WILSON: discussion.
SHIRLEY WILSON: I want to say a massive thank you very
SHIRLEY WILSON: much to Tim Richardson, Professor
SHIRLEY WILSON: Alys Young, and Jo Hornsby for joining us
SHIRLEY WILSON: today. And I hope this has been a really
SHIRLEY WILSON: useful podcast for moving on.
SHIRLEY WILSON: Thank you very much indeed for all of your
SHIRLEY WILSON: time.
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OUTRO: was up to date, but the world of safeguarding and
OUTRO: child protection is ever-changing.
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